POISCENTER
POIS Cause/Treatment Discussions => Hormonal Causes and Treatments => Topic started by: Daveman on March 29, 2011, 08:07:21 PM
-
Testosterone has been used fairly successfully by several member over at the NSF POIS forum. There have been varying degrees of success, but for the most part the results are quite favorable. Hopefully at the risk of repeating themselves, some of these members can share their stories here.
To date however a GOOD professional medical explanation of wy it works is still pending, although among US there are some fairly good and valient attempts to do so.
-
The following recompilation should be good fodder to get things started!
Some (quite a few) conversations about testosterone on NSF.
http://www.google.com/search?q=testosterone+POIS+site:http://thenakedscientists.com&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari
-
At the risk of boring you once again, I have made a GIANT dent in The POIS Demon with TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy).
It's been over 2 years of daily treatment now, and I still consider this a "Life Miracle" for me. (30+ years of POIS Agony, never thought I would see the slightest relief).
There are risks associated with TRT. I recommend that you visit a POIS-empathetic endocrinologist, ask him/her to test you hormonally in-and-out-of-POIS, then weigh the risks and benefits carefully.
Best wishes, no matter HOW you find POIS relief! If banana peels work for you, that's all you should care about. :)
-
Best wishes, no matter HOW you find POIS relief! If banana peels work for you, that's all you should care about. :)
Mellow Yellow :P
-
I'm actually thinking of getting off testosterone for a while, soon. Getting some labs taken once it's out of my system and then reassess my own situation with a GP if my testosterone levels still fall below the reference range.
At the dosage I take, there has been little damage, my testicles temporarlily shurnk because of high estradiol levels, but now they are back to pre trt size.
I'm looking to do this becuase I have found greater benefit with just HCG rather than testosterone, worst case scenario, I can stay on HCG I don't have a problem, it's not as harmful as test either, time will tell, I'll be looking to do this once I complete my degree, over the summer, which I haven't even done anywork this year so far ::) Thanks to POIS...
-
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/69aa3000.jpg)
For those of you interested in and following my TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) POIS treatment (80% POIS-free now, steadily, for 2 and 1/2 years after full hormonal bloodtesting, diagnosis, treatment and follow-up by my endocrinologist. My treatment consists of 15mg daily dosage of (3) Androderm testosterone patches.
My test results from May 25, 2011:
Testosterone, Free/Total Equilib Result Units Reference Interval
Testosterone, Serum 376 ng/dL 193 - 740
Testosterone, Free 15.57 ng/dL 5.00 - 21.00
% Free Testosterone 4.14 % 1.50 - 4.20
-
Hello all,
I wanted to report my results of a recent testosterone lab I asked my doctor for. I O'd about 9pm the night before the test, which I received around 11am the next day. It looks like everything came back normal. I can't say I undersand what the results mean exactly. Any thoughts? (Demo, you seem to be the testosterone expert -- do you have any insights?)
For the record, I am a 26-year-old healthy, active male.
Testosterone (Total, LC/MS/MS):
--Result: 666 ng/dL (normal range 250-1100)
Testosterone (Free):
--Result: 119.0 pg/mL (normal range 35.0-115.0)
-
Demografx, can you describe your therapy in details. How long did it take from the begining of TRT to have a relief? Are you alone or did somebody have the same effect?
-
Hi All,
I'm copying and pasting, and editing a bit, part of a post I entered on NSF late last night, as this part is about testosterone treatment (TRT). I hope that some of it is helpful to even one of you. (It was late and I was tired last night, so forgot to also post it here also.)
Here goes:
Regarding TRT, as Demo says (and he has had GREAT success with it!), there are definite risks to TRT, as there are with any form of hormone replacement treatment, such as estrogen replacement therapy, and even with birth control pills (which is nothing more than hormone treatment).
It should be clearly understood that lab values are not the end-all, be-all regarding any type of hormone replacement therapy. A GOOD endocrinologist -- especially one whose focus is andrology -- will understand that the lab values only provide some information.
Also, testosterone levels vary throughout the day, and vary from day to day. Your level could be below normal at particular and random times of a given day.
What matters most are the symptoms of the patient -- there are many subtle symptoms that a good andrology/endocrinology specialist will be able to ascertain.
I'm not trying to push TRT, by any means!!! But just want you all to be aware that one test does not provide an answer, and to remember that a lab reference table is not a human reference table! Sometimes, just a really small dose of certain hormones (testosterone and thyroid hormone come to mind immediately) can make a MAJOR difference in one's health and quality of life.
Since POIS causes such horrible, life-altering symptoms, TRT might be worth considering as a temporary aid until the REAL DEAL comes along. This goes with one major caveat -- make sure that the physician is a Grade A (from a major university-affiliated teaching hospital) endocrinologist who has a special focus on andrology. If he/she says no, there may be an excellent reason -- just make sure to ask for that reason!
It's so important to do what Demo did -- get assertive, advocate for yourselves, don't take a simple "no" for an answer. If possible, enlist the help of a friend when going for your appointment -- two are stronger than one, especially when feeling so vulnerable.
Although the exact cause(s) and treatment(s) for POIS are not yet clear, any physician who leaves you to fend for yourself is not the right physician! That's a red flag -- and a BIG indication for a second, or third, etc, opinion. ALWAYS!!
-
I wanted to try T-therapy, but to see an endocrinologist you've first got to see your primary and get lab work done. So I had some blood lab-work performed finally.
The doc had me get a whole bunch of things tested but there were the only 3 i thought that matter to us. Here are my results:
Testosterone, serum: 540 ng/dL Reference interval 249 - 836
Free Testosterone (direct): 13.3 pg/mL Reference interval 9.3 - 26.5
Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy: 43.0 ng/mL Reference interval 32 - 100
So none are low. The Vitamin D may just be normal bc just 2 weeks prior I had been in the sun for 2 weeks straight. The testosterone though I was surprised about, given all the discussion we have on this site about pois closely correlating with low T - I had all but assumed mine was low.
Anyway, so I asked my primary about putting me on T-therapy. He said NO given my normal levels. I then asked him to refer me to an endo to discuss this with. He was hesitant to do so bc he said he greatly advises I dont take an unnecessary risk with T-therapy (he thinks there's a 0% chance it'll help me), but begrudgingly agreed. I asked him to refer me to one of the best doctors in the area... the supervising physician in UCSF's endocrinology dept, whose name is Dr. Blake Tyrell. My doctor sent him an email, which he didn't let me see. But here is Dr. Tyrell's response:
... I have heard of this once (POIS) before but could find no evidence that it is an endocrine disorder.
Given that his testosterone is 540, I would agree that androgen therapy is not indicated.
So-we would not see him."
I can't say I'm surprised by that. But I thought I'd share. I have found an internist who also has a phD in sexology - so I have an appt with that guy in a month. hopefully that yields better results
In my earlier days of testosterone experimentation, I went through a similar thing with my docs, and I just got...ANGRY and aggressive. I DEMANDED testosterone, and talked very emphatically about POIS as if I were a worldwide expert (I was!!).
The fact is: doc's don't know!
It worked. They put me through a lot, but it worked. And now I am on TRT with proper testing and a sympathetic endo.
HOWEVER, THERE ARE RISKS WITH TRT (TESTOSTERONE TREATMENT) AND THEY NEED TO BE UNDERSTOOD BY ANYONE CONTEMPLATING TREATMENT. THE POSSIBLE INABILITY TO RE-START YOUR NATURAL TESTOSTERONE PRODUCTION IF YOU QUIT TRT IS AN IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION.
My hunch (NOT empirically proven fact) is that TRT can help anyone, regardless of testosterone readings.
-
With respect to the hunch, and even to explain perhaps why some of us can have normal readings but still find TRT helpful, is that we may be less sensitive to the testosterone "signal". After all we have a RARE disorder, so we may not be expected to respond as a normal person.
Our testing in thei area has been low. It would be great to have more data in this area.
For any who have tried or those who might consider it. Starting levels and conditions are required as reference points. Then careful administration of treatment, and continuous level monitoring coupled with symptomatic feedback.
As usual, failures may not always be failures if we capture the important data, and successes may not be successes if we don't capture the important data.
-
Quick summary: my high dose TRT + stimulants + forced (extra) sleep are extremely powerful POIS tools for me. At times, I am nearly 100% POIS-free. On average: 80%.
Please do NOT try what I do without strict testing, diagnosis and medical supervision. It can be dangerous.
After 35 years POIS agony, I can't begin to describe my gratitude these last 2+ years. I thank you - these forums - for showing me the way!
-
Demografx, can you describe your therapy in details. How long did it take from the begining of TRT to have a relief? Are you alone or did somebody have the same effect?
Starsky, sorry for the delay. I waited 6 weeks from when I started TRT, but that was only because I was AFRAID of my usual POIS agony if it DIDN'T work.
It worked!!! After 35 life-destroying years!
I apply 3 patches of Androderm 5mg = 15mg nightly. Manufacturer is Watson Pharmaceuticals. I take more at POIS onset.
About half a dozen people have reported success with TRT.
-
I fully understand how you felt.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
-
My natural total test level is over 1000ng/dl, but I suffer badly from POIS.
I think TRT can only help the ones with low T levels to recover faster from POIS episode.
Another approach would be to take Testosterone Undecanoate caps or rub some T gel for a couple days starting the day of the ej.
-
What is *more* important
than curing your POIS?
(http://markarmstrongillustration.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/feature_presentation.gif)
How about making "POIS Cured!" the Feature Presentation instead of
(http://vegasfamilyevents.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/The-Avengers-movie-review-2012.jpg)
Skip the movie and click here instead. (http://www.rarediseases.org/about/support/research-donations/fg_base_view_p3)
Put your lucky$10 or - multiples of $10 - or even better yet, deduct the same $amount monthly...and...automatically! (NORD does all the heavy lifting of debiting your account for you monthly) to work on your POIS cure instead!
Trust me, you'll feel great.
I did.
Twice.
Skip the movie and click here instead. (http://www.rarediseases.org/about/support/research-donations/fg_base_view_p3)
Or click here to read more about The POIS Medical Fund (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=125.0)
-
Hello, everyone. I do want to mention that if any of you are ever in Massachusetts, United States do not hesitate to contact me. My family operates a restaurant and I would be honored host any of the active people in the forum.
Anyway,
Something strange has happened with my testosterone testing. As many of you know, my symptoms all started with a particular orgasm almost a decade ago. They are very severe, have pulled me out of my family's businesses and school, and can seem both schizophrenic and physically limiting when at it's worst. My testosterone has consistently read in the 400's for the first few years of my POIS, and doctors understandably interpreted this as a normal testosterone level since the level can vary from person to person.
Recently, about 6 months ago, I noticed a big improvement in my symptoms by taking niacin before POIS and Kurtosis' treatment regimen (His regimen at that time) immediately after orgasm. All my symptoms (severe cognitive, neurological, cardiovascular, inflamed/light sensitive eyes, fatigue, muscle weakness) felt 80% better. I was having orgasms once per week (more than I have ever had in my POIS time) and hardly felt any symptoms. I was able to do some testing during this period and the results read over 700 for testosterone.
More recently, the treatments have become less and less effective over time. Whether it was just a matter of tolerance or if taking supplements immediately after orgasm had a negative effect I'm not sure. I have begun to get worse over time. I am still better than I was a while back but the gap isn't very wide. I had a test just a week or two ago and my testosterone once again read in the 400's.
My testosterone testing:
3/28/11 - 499
7/18/11 - 422
6/14/12 - 730 (When I felt good)
8/13/12 - 486
Testosterone is the only thing I have ever found anything like this with. I don't believe that this is the explanation for my POIS because my problems are so widespread and severe. I do wonder how much of it could be due to low testosterone. Also I wonder of the possibility if my testosterone actually does belong in the 400's and the supplements I started to take just provided a boost and masking effect of my POIS. Then again, it is always possible that the supplements, which could have boosted my testosterone, could have helped with inflammation and drive and mental clarity.
I would love to hear the opinions of the many intelligent people in this forum.
Thanks and I continue to wish you all the best,
Jon.
-
John, out of curiousity, what supplements were you taking to boost test this high?
I have been trying to do this myself over the last week using DIM and Calcium D Glucarate. Ive read many peeps on bodybuilding forums have had good experiences with this combo. Not sure how its worked thus far, I got flu this week and im feeling pretty out of it with all the flu meds.
-
Jon, in my case, low testosterone seemed to be the culprit in ALL my POIS symptoms, some of them bizarre (e.g. strangely painful fingertips).
TRT patches, 10 mg day/365 days/year do the trick for me. After 30+ years severe, agony-filled POIS.
However, I think I lost my sperm count in the process. NOT OK if you're younger and want kids. So check out fertility risks carefully!
ps - Jon, thank your for your very generous invitation to your Massachusetts restaurant!
-
Let's Cure POIS. Now.
(http://www.theoink.net/index3_htm_files/now_appearing1.gif)
Make "POIS Cured!"
the Feature Presentation - not Arnold!
(http://collider.com/wp-content/uploads/expendables-2-movie-poster-arnold-schwarzenegger.jpg)
Skip the movie and click here to please donate instead. (http://www.rarediseases.org/about/support/research-donations/fg_base_view_p3)
Or click here to read more about The POIS Medical Fund (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=125.0)
-
Hello, everyone. I do want to mention that if any of you are ever in Massachusetts, United States do not hesitate to contact me. My family operates a restaurant and I would be honored host any of the active people in the forum.
Anyway,
Something strange has happened with my testosterone testing. As many of you know, my symptoms all started with a particular orgasm almost a decade ago. They are very severe, have pulled me out of my family's businesses and school, and can seem both schizophrenic and physically limiting when at it's worst. My testosterone has consistently read in the 400's for the first few years of my POIS, and doctors understandably interpreted this as a normal testosterone level since the level can vary from person to person.
Recently, about 6 months ago, I noticed a big improvement in my symptoms by taking niacin before POIS and Kurtosis' treatment regimen (His regimen at that time) immediately after orgasm. All my symptoms (severe cognitive, neurological, cardiovascular, inflamed/light sensitive eyes, fatigue, muscle weakness) felt 80% better. I was having orgasms once per week (more than I have ever had in my POIS time) and hardly felt any symptoms. I was able to do some testing during this period and the results read over 700 for testosterone.
More recently, the treatments have become less and less effective over time. Whether it was just a matter of tolerance or if taking supplements immediately after orgasm had a negative effect I'm not sure. I have begun to get worse over time. I am still better than I was a while back but the gap isn't very wide. I had a test just a week or two ago and my testosterone once again read in the 400's.
My testosterone testing:
3/28/11 - 499
7/18/11 - 422
6/14/12 - 730 (When I felt good)
8/13/12 - 486
Testosterone is the only thing I have ever found anything like this with. I don't believe that this is the explanation for my POIS because my problems are so widespread and severe. I do wonder how much of it could be due to low testosterone. Also I wonder of the possibility if my testosterone actually does belong in the 400's and the supplements I started to take just provided a boost and masking effect of my POIS. Then again, it is always possible that the supplements, which could have boosted my testosterone, could have helped with inflammation and drive and mental clarity.
I would love to hear the opinions of the many intelligent people in this forum.
Thanks and I continue to wish you all the best,
Jon.
Interesting, Jon. Tests like these are so important -- that is, tests that allow you to compare levels while you're symptomatic and while you're not. Do you mind if I ask your age? Just curios to see how it matches up to the levels you reported.
I got my testosterone tested last year. I O'd around 9pm the night before the test (administered around 11am the next day). Do you recall how recently you had O'd prior to having the 400-level tests administered? Might be helpful information.
Here are my results (26-year-old, healthy male):
Testosterone (Total, LC/MS/MS):
--Result: 666 ng/dL (normal range 250-1100)
Testosterone (Free):
--Result: 119.0 pg/mL (normal range 35.0-115.0)
Also, I'm heading to Boston in a few days to begin the final year of my grad program. Where is your restaurant located in MA? It would be great to meet up if it's not too far. Feel free to PM me if you don't want the information posted here.
-
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/69aa3000.jpg)
-
I just have to say... wow. A few minutes ago I made a lengthy post about curing my moderate to minor POIS by raising my testosterone levels. I raised my levels because of other reasons--atypical gender identity. I was very surprised to read this thread and see that others have stumbled across this solution too.
-
I just have to say... wow. A few minutes ago I made a lengthy post about curing my moderate to minor POIS by raising my testosterone levels. I raised my levels because of other reasons--atypical gender identity. I was very surprised to read this thread and see that others have stumbled across this solution too.
Hi guy26! Welcome! :)
It was me who contacted you. I wasn't sure if you would come, so thank you very very much for coming over to share your story! I think that anytime someone has been cured of POIS (via any method), it's important to discuss it. Yes, others, like demografx for example, have been cured or helped with testosterone. But I believe that's okay since each cure case is unique and it is good to hear about them all.
For those who don't know the story, I found guy26 at another forum while researching POIS and noticed a section in one of his posts talking about how he cured his POIS. So I invited him over to talk about it. I didn't know if he would get the invitation or come, but I gave it a shot, and luckily it worked!
-
I just have to say... wow. A few minutes ago I made a lengthy post about curing my moderate to minor POIS by raising my testosterone levels. I raised my levels because of other reasons--atypical gender identity. I was very surprised to read this thread and see that others have stumbled across this solution too.
I've been with POIS forums 6 years now and have seen about six (6) successful testosterone treatments in POISers who posted about it.
I recently posted elsewhere on this forum about my 10-year testosterone odyssey.
-
John, out of curiousity, what supplements were you taking to boost test this high?
I have been trying to do this myself over the last week using DIM and Calcium D Glucarate. Ive read many peeps on bodybuilding forums have had good experiences with this combo. Not sure how its worked thus far, I got flu this week and im feeling pretty out of it with all the flu meds.
Porke, My apologies on the long delay. If I have been logging on here consistently of late. I was taking niacin before orgasm and spiraling, vitamin c, and fish oil afterwards and then every other day. I only took the niacin before orgasm and not on other days.
Hello, everyone. I do want to mention that if any of you are ever in Massachusetts, United States do not hesitate to contact me. My family operates a restaurant and I would be honored host any of the active people in the forum.
Anyway,
Something strange has happened with my testosterone testing. As many of you know, my symptoms all started with a particular orgasm almost a decade ago. They are very severe, have pulled me out of my family's businesses and school, and can seem both schizophrenic and physically limiting when at it's worst. My testosterone has consistently read in the 400's for the first few years of my POIS, and doctors understandably interpreted this as a normal testosterone level since the level can vary from person to person.
Recently, about 6 months ago, I noticed a big improvement in my symptoms by taking niacin before POIS and Kurtosis' treatment regimen (His regimen at that time) immediately after orgasm. All my symptoms (severe cognitive, neurological, cardiovascular, inflamed/light sensitive eyes, fatigue, muscle weakness) felt 80% better. I was having orgasms once per week (more than I have ever had in my POIS time) and hardly felt any symptoms. I was able to do some testing during this period and the results read over 700 for testosterone.
More recently, the treatments have become less and less effective over time. Whether it was just a matter of tolerance or if taking supplements immediately after orgasm had a negative effect I'm not sure. I have begun to get worse over time. I am still better than I was a while back but the gap isn't very wide. I had a test just a week or two ago and my testosterone once again read in the 400's.
My testosterone testing:
3/28/11 - 499
7/18/11 - 422
6/14/12 - 730 (When I felt good)
8/13/12 - 486
Testosterone is the only thing I have ever found anything like this with. I don't believe that this is the explanation for my POIS because my problems are so widespread and severe. I do wonder how much of it could be due to low testosterone. Also I wonder of the possibility if my testosterone actually does belong in the 400's and the supplements I started to take just provided a boost and masking effect of my POIS. Then again, it is always possible that the supplements, which could have boosted my testosterone, could have helped with inflammation and drive and mental clarity.
I would love to hear the opinions of the many intelligent people in this forum.
Thanks and I continue to wish you all the best,
Jon.
Interesting, Jon. Tests like these are so important -- that is, tests that allow you to compare levels while you're symptomatic and while you're not. Do you mind if I ask your age? Just curios to see how it matches up to the levels you reported.
I got my testosterone tested last year. I O'd around 9pm the night before the test (administered around 11am the next day). Do you recall how recently you had O'd prior to having the 400-level tests administered? Might be helpful information.
Here are my results (26-year-old, healthy male):
Testosterone (Total, LC/MS/MS):
--Result: 666 ng/dL (normal range 250-1100)
Testosterone (Free):
--Result: 119.0 pg/mL (normal range 35.0-115.0)
Also, I'm heading to Boston in a few days to begin the final year of my grad program. Where is your restaurant located in MA? It would be great to meet up if it's not too far. Feel free to PM me if you don't want the information posted here.
Hoping, My apologies on the delay. That's awesome, congratulations and good luck to you. Our restaurant is located in southeastern mass in Swansea. Its about a 50 minute drive from downtown providence.
-
hey guys sorry but i'm struggling with how to use this aite and was wondering if anyone can tell me about the testosterone levels that they are taking. my doctor has just started me on the testogel 100 mg
-
I take 8mg daily of Androderm T patches. I started out with 15mg daily for 2 years, then lowered the dose to curb side effects.
With doctor's monitoring of my condition throughout my 3 year POIS treatment.
simfooks6, welcome to The POIS Forum!
And here are some POIS-enlightening resources for you:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg1#msg1
-
I just got my lab results from my testosterone level check.
Both regular and free levels were in the upper normal ranges. I'm 26 years old, and that definitely helps my levels. This may have changed though, as around 2 years ago I was prescribed Androgel by a sympathetic endocrinologist in an attempt to treat my POIS. I couldn't tolerate it, made me edgy and angry. But I might have had a lower T level back then, which may have changed over time taking supplements. I'll try to dig those records up.
-
Hello all,
I discussed with my doc about testosterone ; I'll have my level checked.
We thought we shouldn't compare our levels with normal range but mesure variations through time and POIS phase evolution ;
I'll make it at O+1; O+3 and 0+6/7(depends how i fell...basicly in pois free symptoms state)
I'll post everything here
-
just got my blood test result :
I will just write what came wrong :
17 beta estradiol
40,4 pmol/l normal range for men 99-393
Testosterone
2,66ng/mL normal range 2,49-8,36
Biodisponible Testosterone
0,57 ng/mL normal range for men 20-35yo 1 - 3,70
I've done the test in O+2 day...I was definitly in POIS
Basicly I had this day the free testosterone of a 70 yo person (I'm 28)
The thing is I dont have problem of erection or any of the hypogonadism symptoms
I need to have other testings but I think we definitly need to investigate the testosterone role in POIS ; I talked with my endocrino about mess up with spermatogenesis and he was clearly interested.
-
TRT was the answer in my case. Congrats on testing.
-
That's interesting to me that you don't have erection difficulty or low libido and yet your testosterone tested so low cuz I've always thought that my testosterone was high due to my high libido, but recently I've thought that my libido might just seem high because of the irritation and inflammation that POIS causes in my sexual organs.
-
Here's a short theory of POIS.
1) A genetic defect in a methylation gene causes an inefficient homocysteine to methionine cycle.
2) Depending on the level of inefficiency, the sufferer will be fine until they encounter puberty or become older and suffer from some illness which taxes the immune system.
3) Up until the point of the first POIS O the sufferer may feel a bit tired or less active than usual but the first POIS O will come as a shock as it's the first time the body has to dispose of a substantial amount of histamine that it's impaired methylation simply cannot handle.
4) Once POIS starts, the sufferer has high levels of histamine that are not being effectively deactivated (increasing their libido and frequency of ejaculation) and impairments in the production of other neurotransmitters (making them slow down and feel depressed).
5) the High-histamine state requires the body to produce more cortisol to control inflammation. The sufferer has allergies etc. and wonders what the problem is but over time they're body becomes weaker.
6) The cortisol produced in (5) steals the raw ingredients for other hormones (including testosterone), producing symptoms of hypogonadism despite no obvious testicular malfunction or adrenal tumour. It's possible that persistent adrenal fatigue may increase the natural wear + tear on the cells of the pituitary gland which may lead to tumours but that's a side issue.
7) The body also produces adrenaline to cope with high levels of cortisol. Again, this contributes to mental and physical burnout. The POIS sufferer now has chronic adrenal fatigue and may feel "wiped out", being unable to deal with even normal stresses in every day life.
8) Both the reduced methylation and cortisol steal in the previous points, reduces the production of neurotransmitters. The brain also has too high a histamine load and a negative feedback loop is created such that the brain runs in a suboptimal state with too high levels of histamine and too low levels of serotonin. This leads to persistent feelings of anxiety, even when the sufferer believes they are not in POIS. Indeed, over time it becomes more difficult for the POIS sufferer to figure out when they are in in POIS or out of it. The state of weakness, fatigue and confusion becomes more persistent.
9 ) The POIS sufferer never recovers their former state of wellbeing with adequate histamine clearance and adequate methylation of neurotransmitters UNLESS they manage to kick start their methylation cycle.
Thanks to cheap DNA testing we can actually find out if we have polymorphisms (basically mutations) of our methylation genes. My guess is that we all have methylation issues. They may not be the same issue but they're similar enough to produce a major problem when we process histamine. The inability to clear histamine quickly and the high levels we experience daily would lead to the symptoms of POIS but they would be a result of other issues.
-
Here's a short theory of POIS.
(...)
Amazing kurtosis. I can only say that I am going to try to understand and study your theory, thank you for all the effort you are dedicating to the issue.
-
7) should read "high levels of histamine"
8) should be 8 )
-
Hi all,
Things are mooving quicker than usually...It's very exciting...There is two new case of "feeling recovered" in the NSF forum...I dont' know how to take thoose and how it could help all of us...
The Coreman description is interesting to me ; I know for long time i'm high prolactine(nerver could explain that).
I think we really need to go in some methodic scientific research to definitly verify the numerous hypothesis we have.
Have a good sunday
-
Here's a short theory of POIS.
1) A genetic defect in a methylation gene causes an inefficient homocysteine to methionine cycle.
2) Depending on the level of inefficiency, the sufferer will be fine until they encounter puberty or become older and suffer from some illness which taxes the immune system.
3) Up until the point of the first POIS O the sufferer may feel a bit tired or less active than usual but the first POIS O will come as a shock as it's the first time the body has to dispose of a substantial amount of histamine that it's impaired methylation simply cannot handle.
4) Once POIS starts, the sufferer has high levels of histamine that are not being effectively deactivated (increasing their libido and frequency of ejaculation) and impairments in the production of other neurotransmitters (making them slow down and feel depressed).
5) the High-histamine state requires the body to produce more cortisol to control inflammation. The sufferer has allergies etc. and wonders what the problem is but over time they're body becomes weaker.
6) The cortisol produced in (5) steals the raw ingredients for other hormones (including testosterone), producing symptoms of hypogonadism despite no obvious testicular malfunction or adrenal tumour. It's possible that persistent adrenal fatigue may increase the natural wear + tear on the cells of the pituitary gland which may lead to tumours but that's a side issue.
7) The body also produces adrenaline to cope with high levels of cortisol. Again, this contributes to mental and physical burnout. The POIS sufferer now has chronic adrenal fatigue and may feel "wiped out", being unable to deal with even normal stresses in every day life.
8) Both the reduced methylation and cortisol steal in the previous points, reduces the production of neurotransmitters. The brain also has too high a histamine load and a negative feedback loop is created such that the brain runs in a suboptimal state with too high levels of histamine and too low levels of serotonin. This leads to persistent feelings of anxiety, even when the sufferer believes they are not in POIS. Indeed, over time it becomes more difficult for the POIS sufferer to figure out when they are in in POIS or out of it. The state of weakness, fatigue and confusion becomes more persistent.
9 ) The POIS sufferer never recovers their former state of wellbeing with adequate histamine clearance and adequate methylation of neurotransmitters UNLESS they manage to kick start their methylation cycle.
Thanks to cheap DNA testing we can actually find out if we have polymorphisms (basically mutations) of our methylation genes. My guess is that we all have methylation issues. They may not be the same issue but they're similar enough to produce a major problem when we process histamine. The inability to clear histamine quickly and the high levels we experience daily would lead to the symptoms of POIS but they would be a result of other issues.
Although I have no knowledges to understand all that, it seems very logical.
However, I think a lot of sufferer here did'nt experienced allergie problems ; If we all have high level of histamine, everybody should be allergic with physical signs ; Some other could have allergies AND POIS wich are not obligatory related ; There is some people here are allergic to gluten and the symptoms are clearly similar to POIS especialy for the cognitive one ; So , what symtoms are caused by the allergie/food intolerence itself ?Or by POIS? Is it the same thing ?(then why about 40% of POIS sufferer declare not being allergic person according to the poll)
Moreover it's very difficult to find any serious paper wich make a relation between high histamine and the cognitive probleme we have.
I still think it's one the best theory we have about POIS, but I'm just concerned about the fact that it doesn't apply for everybody.
-
We have no idea if we're all suffering from the same thing. I operate on the assumption that we're not.
Orgasms involve histamine release. A "flu like" reaction to an orgasm seems by definition to be like an allergy. However, people's ability to identify or diagnose their own problems may be different. Some people think they may have POIS a lot faster than others. Education, medical understanding, the age of the sufferer and progression of the illness etc. all play a part.
The polls have appallingly low numbers of people voting in them. We cannot base anything useful on them. I've given up creating them to be honest as we're supposed to have a few hundred members here but we get between 10 and 20 people voting in polls.
Why are some papers serious and others are not? I have worked as a scientist for many years and I can tell you that much of what's deemed serious at any particular time is fashion. The very fact that major drug companies are researching H3 antagonists to treat cognitive problems tells you there's a connection. What other standard of proof is required?
-
If someone doesn't have symptoms of any of: fatigue, nausea, dizziness, headache, stomach ache, rashes, itches etc. when they have an O, then they don't have POIS. What other symptoms could they possibly have? A mild sense of dissatisfaction? :)
I'm not trying to be rude about this and I hope it doesn't seem that way but my interest is in the connection with my symptoms and those of the majority of the people that I'm dealing with, especially people like B_Daniel who are helpful enough to send me their results.
The forum is full of people saying taking X, Y or Z didn't do much for them and some people saying that the same X, Y or Z worked in some capacity. All I can say is what works for me. The same thing that works for me now seems to be working for B_Daniel. That's good.
Having dealt with medical professionals, both generalists and specialists, for 20 years trying to overcome this illness I don't really care what medical professionals think is authoritative information or not. Relatively cheap genetic testing means that genetic mutations and problems are beginning to be identified more easily and the blunt instrument that is much of medical diagnostics will be overshadowed by better doctoring and better cures.
There are millions of people with mysterious illnesses that are not being cured by their doctors. So we have a few possibilities
1) They are all nuts - it's all in their heads
2) They have real physiological problems that their doctors have no idea how to treat.
If 1 is correct then it's just as likely POIS is all in our heads. So we shut down this website and go back to our psychiatrists admitting we were wrong & they knew best :)
If 2 is correct then we should adopt some skepticism with our doctors and insist they adopt some humility with us. I have learnt over many years that unless a doctor has a constructive suggestion for how to deal with POIS, I don't bother to convince them it's real. I spent 10 years a lot of money trying to convince people who were very egotistical that just because they didn't understand POIS that it may still exist.
This year I spoke with a woman with Myaesthenia Gravis who was eventually treated after 8 years of misdiagnosis. She had a similarly dim view of medical infallibility.
We had both ended up paying huge bills for each hour we had spent trying to convince doctors of the validity of an illness they couldn't treat or would not acknowledge.
Never again.
-
Thank you, kurtosis, for sharing your in-depth thinking and views on POIS!
-
I am 55 years old and started with all the pois sintoms (5) years ago, I was diagnosed with low T and I am under testosterone replacement, I am using Androgel 1.62% everyday but this isn't helping, it looks like it is worst becasue during sleep I have noctural emissions every night and the next day I feel all the POIS sintoms, extremely fatigue, sinus, itchy body, irritated eyes, sleeppy all the time, dificult to concentrate, muscles ache, eye burning, dificult to talk, etc, etc,.. my T levels are ok now and I tought that this was going to be the solution to the pois sintoms becasue is something I didn't have it in the past, few days ago I had an orgasm without eyaculation by using the Tantric thecniques but pois was even 2 or 3 times worst, I read that it is possible to have an orgasm without eyaculation at all, not even retrograde eyaculation does anybody knows if this is possible? I am trying whatever I read or learn to solve the problem but so far no solution, for now I am using the testosterone evryother day to reduce the nocturnal emmisions, does anybody think that testosterone in patches is better than androgel? Thanks, Mario
-
Hi all,
I had my testo rechecked : i'm 6,80 ug/l so i'm just in the range for my age - I was 2,66 ug/l 6 month before
What it interesting is the bio available testosterone : i'm 0,90 ng/ml(was 0,57 last test) wich is pretty low by just considering it and very abnormal by comparating it to total testo ; I'm 1,4% and should be 4% at least
First time it was a risk of false result, 2nd time I guess there is something real.
So I guess, there is either a problem of over utilisation of testosterone what leave a few free or probleme for release testoterone and make it avalaible for the body
Do you guys have tested your Bio available testoterone checked ? It can be tricky to just test the total testosterone wich in my case this time is normal
-
I am 55 years old and started with all the pois sintoms (5) years ago, I was diagnosed with low T and I am under testosterone replacement, I am using Androgel 1.62% everyday but this isn't helping, it looks like it is worst becasue during sleep I have noctural emissions every night and the next day I feel all the POIS sintoms, extremely fatigue, sinus, itchy body, irritated eyes, sleeppy all the time, dificult to concentrate, muscles ache, eye burning, dificult to talk, etc, etc,.. my T levels are ok now and I tought that this was going to be the solution to the pois sintoms becasue is something I didn't have it in the past, few days ago I had an orgasm without eyaculation by using the Tantric thecniques but pois was even 2 or 3 times worst, I read that it is possible to have an orgasm without eyaculation at all, not even retrograde eyaculation does anybody knows if this is possible? I am trying whatever I read or learn to solve the problem but so far no solution, for now I am using the testosterone evryother day to reduce the nocturnal emmisions, does anybody think that testosterone in patches is better than androgel? Thanks, Mario
I apply 8mg a day of testosterone patches, every day for POIS. My endocrinologist thinks gel can be equally effective.
-
Hi all,
I had my testo rechecked : i'm 6,80 ug/l so i'm just in the range for my age - I was 2,66 ug/l 6 month before
What it interesting is the bio available testosterone : i'm 0,90 ng/ml(was 0,57 last test) wich is pretty low by just considering it and very abnormal by comparating it to total testo ; I'm 1,4% and should be 4% at least
First time it was a risk of false result, 2nd time I guess there is something real.
So I guess, there is either a problem of over utilisation of testosterone what leave a few free or probleme for release testoterone and make it avalaible for the body
Do you guys have tested your Bio available testoterone checked ? It can be tricky to just test the total testosterone wich in my case this time is normal
tested total, bioavailable and free multiple times. They were always in range but either towards the middle or lower side.
-
I opted for a relatively high dose of TRT -- it did amazing things for my POIS -- but I might have lost my sperm count in the process. I have 2 grown "kids", so no problem for me.
-
My lipase test show an increased level below the normal range but not enough to be a symptom of pancreatis.
In a 2012 study (the turkish lipid problem : low levels of high density lipoproteins) I found the link with testosterone :
However, testosterone is a major regulator of hepatic lipase.
It sounds logical that testosterone is down-regulated by lipase, when T-level is low, pancreas release more lipase for better fats/cholesterol absorption and regulate T-level.
-
Kurtosis theory is probably the best laid out from the various discussions over the years about the histamine cortisol neurotransmitter connection. I wonder if we could post it on the POIS Wikipedia talk page since its a medical theory (and a damned well written one).
-
Kurtosis theory is probably the best laid out from the various discussions over the years about the histamine cortisol neurotransmitter connection. I wonder if we could post it on the POIS Wikipedia talk page since its a medical theory (and a damned well written one).
Thanks Defsync,
Here it is below. Reads very well and seems to make some scientific sense. I think he has a science background. Unfortunately, I don't understand it all, but hopefully researchers, Kurtosis or others with science knowledge will read and comment/update this.
Re: Testosterone
? Reply #33 on: November 10, 2012, 05:23:18 PM ?
From Forum Contributor Kurtosis.
Here's a short theory of POIS.
1) A genetic defect in a methylation gene causes an inefficient homocysteine to methionine cycle.
2) Depending on the level of inefficiency, the sufferer will be fine until they encounter puberty or become older and suffer from some illness which taxes the immune system.
3) Up until the point of the first POIS O the sufferer may feel a bit tired or less active than usual but the first POIS O will come as a shock as it's the first time the body has to dispose of a substantial amount of histamine that it's impaired methylation simply cannot handle.
4) Once POIS starts, the sufferer has high levels of histamine that are not being effectively deactivated (increasing their libido and frequency of ejaculation) and impairments in the production of other neurotransmitters (making them slow down and feel depressed).
5) the High-histamine state requires the body to produce more cortisol to control inflammation. The sufferer has allergies etc. and wonders what the problem is but over time they're body becomes weaker.
6) The cortisol produced in (5) steals the raw ingredients for other hormones (including testosterone), producing symptoms of hypogonadism despite no obvious testicular malfunction or adrenal tumour. It's possible that persistent adrenal fatigue may increase the natural wear + tear on the cells of the pituitary gland which may lead to tumours but that's a side issue.
7) The body also produces adrenaline to cope with high levels of cortisol. Again, this contributes to mental and physical burnout. The POIS sufferer now has chronic adrenal fatigue and may feel "wiped out", being unable to deal with even normal stresses in every day life.
Both the reduced methylation and cortisol steal in the previous points, reduces the production of neurotransmitters. The brain also has too high a histamine load and a negative feedback loop is created such that the brain runs in a suboptimal state with too high levels of histamine and too low levels of serotonin. This leads to persistent feelings of anxiety, even when the sufferer believes they are not in POIS. Indeed, over time it becomes more difficult for the POIS sufferer to figure out when they are in in POIS or out of it. The state of weakness, fatigue and confusion becomes more persistent.
9 ) The POIS sufferer never recovers their former state of wellbeing with adequate histamine clearance and adequate methylation of neurotransmitters UNLESS they manage to kick start their methylation cycle.
Thanks to cheap DNA testing we can actually find out if we have polymorphisms (basically mutations) of our methylation genes. My guess is that we all have methylation issues. They may not be the same issue but they're similar enough to produce a major problem when we process histamine. The inability to clear histamine quickly and the high levels we experience daily would lead to the symptoms of POIS but they would be a result of other issues.
-
So the key to Kurtosis Theory is to get the methylation cycle fully functioning? This sounds complicated but im wondering if folate supplements among others will help with this?
-
@Defsync, @Colm,
I think there's potentially something to the body of Kurtosis's theory, but I've never really been enthiused about the genetic defect cause for this theory.
What does any of us know though?
But I wonder if there is/could be something else that weakens the methylation system. Mine didn't start until I was older, and undeniably, related to a vasectomy reversal under circumsances which probably produce a fairly high auto-immune load. So in that respect, it could still be coincident with what Kurtosis says, but rather: would it be neccesary for there to be a gene defect for the weakness to be exposed.
I think a first order of business would be to prove that POIS is caused by a methylation deficiency, and THEN look at what could be the root cause.
-
I really believe it has something to do with Testosterone...
I share many of the same symptoms with the Post Finasteride Syndrome sufferers... http://www.propeciahelp.com/symptoms
-
TRT DIARY
For those of you following my Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) vs. POIS success for 5+ years, my GP recently insisted that I cut my testosterone intake volume significantly (my T-readings have been too high).
So...I am now alternating between 1 and 2 patches every other night (1,2,1,2,etc.) -- 4mg per [Androderm] patch -- down from 2 patches every night. No noticeable difference in my POIS -- but I seem to tolerate heat from sunshine better!
I insisted on (and obtained) medical cooperation from both my endocrinologist and my GP -- who have been monitoring my T-levels -- on taking high levels from the very beginning of my TRT protocol .
Word of caution to anyone contemplating discussing TRT with your doc: my high dose decision (I felt POIS needed that heavy duty combat) may have led to my ZERO sperm count test result. So be aware of FERTILITY RISKS WITH TRT.
But -- in my case -- I now have grown children and don't plan on more :)
-
Actual readings:
Component Value Range
Testosterone, total 806 250 - 1100 ng/dL
Testosterone, Free 201.3 * 35.0 - 155.0 pg/mL
*level too high
-
Demografx, I have some doubts about the testosterone treatment. Because you are a old user of this forum I ask to you.
1) All pois suffers that tried the testosterone treatment improve their symptoms?
2) All that improve their symptoms have low testosterone in tests?
Thanks
-
Fidalgo, I don't know if TRT has worked for everyone who tried it, and I'm also unsure about reporting high/low testosterone, I haven't seen much at the forums.
But it's helped a few people here.
I tried to get my TRT manufacturer (Watson Pharma) to do a POIS study , but I was not successful.
Excellent questions, fidalgo , but I think more research needs to be done !
-
Kurtosis has an intresting theory... What would you suppose the correlation between yours and the vagal nerve dystonia is? Is it possible that-
1) A genetic defect in a methylation gene causes an inefficient homocysteine to methionine cycle- would indirectly create over/under activity of the PNS? Which, is similar to the under/over activity we describe w/ cognition/neuro/psych (ex. depression, OCD, myoclonis, confusion, neuropathy). Lol, I hate POIS and love me :)
I would consider the TRT to help myself recover from an acute episode, yet I have chronic POIS (constant symptoms regardless of abstaining, they get better and worse, never leave). Btw, my testosterone levels have been as high as 900 and as low as 300 on separate occasions.
I wonder if there is a sharp difference or which range in T levels from day to day in some POIS guys because sometimes right after sex I feel as though I have to have sex immediately and actually have a hyper aggressive attitude toward life and ppl. But then about 5-7 days later my sex drive is in the toilet or shoots up again... It depends on the satisfaction gained in the initial sexual experience and severity of symptoms.
I am 28 and probably would not benefit from TRT unless it would somehow stabilize my T levels.. Does anyone know how stabilization of T levels is achieved?
An aside- I also have a lower sperm count (about 10million 1.5yrs ago). I will get it checked again in about a month or so along with T levels.
I would bet money that my T levels are though the roof after sex. I had them measured 2 wks ago and was at 325 after 9 days abstaining.
-
I had my total testosterone checked about five hours post O, and it came back low at 320. I had the same test done when I was symptom free eleven days post O, and it was even lower at 260. What this all means, I am not sure yet.
-
I very much want to see what testosterone will do for my POIS. My allergist who diagnosed me as being allergic to my own semen has been reluctant to do so. I was hoping someone out there has a doctor they are seeing in Northern California? Any help would be appreciated. Thank You
-
I very much want to see what testosterone will do for my POIS. My allergist who diagnosed me as being allergic to my own semen has been reluctant to do so. I was hoping someone out there has a doctor they are seeing in Northern California? Any help would be appreciated. Thank You
I followed the advice of an old school friend I trusted who became a Harvard biophysicist pioneer in early HIV research and he strongly suggested a university-based endocrinologist (why endo? Back then the forum suspected that POIS is a hormonal issue). My friend's reasoning was that universities are research oriented and thus may be more sympathetic to POIS. Many, many docs as you probably know...are not!
This advice happily paid off for me.
I proceeded with the endo to do a full battery of hormonal blood tests and he found a very low count of free testosterone. I was labeled with "hypogonadism" for my charts. Not POIS! Because POIS is not yet "recognized", but hypogonadism is clearly established in medicine.
Years later I continue monitoring TRT with my GP. In fact he just reduced my dosage because my T levels are too high.
TRT -- as Stef maintains -- has...risks! (e.g., I lost my sperm count -- prolly due to high TRT ).
Keep in mind that TRT for POIS is an "off-label" use, so if your first doc is not sympathetic or understanding of POIS, find another one who is!
Best wishes, Pflug. Put this in your Google search box:
university endocrinologists san francisco
-
Demo,
I really appreciate the detailed response. It might be a struggle as I do not have low testosterone levels. Like many, my biggest symptom is extreme fatigue. I thought if I raised my T levels higher it might help. Do you feel uncomfortable giving me your Doctor's name? I thought he might be more sympathetic than someone off the street. A doctor at Kaiser looked at me like I was a head case when I explained POIS to him. Thanks
-
I had my total testosterone checked about five hours post O, and it came back low at 320. I had the same test done when I was symptom free eleven days post O, and it was even lower at 260. What this all means, I am not sure yet.
I think "free testosterone" is more important than total T, but measure both (see my recent readings on the previous page). Some info on free T:
http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=167&ContentID=testosterone_free
-
Demo,
I really appreciate the detailed response. It might be a struggle as I do not have low testosterone levels. Like many, my biggest symptom is extreme fatigue. I thought if I raised my T levels higher it might help. Do you feel uncomfortable giving me your Doctor's name? I thought he might be more sympathetic than someone off the street. A doctor at Kaiser looked at me like I was a head case when I explained POIS to him. Thanks
My biggest problem was also extreme fatigue.
I think your reasoning is solid but risky...just like mine! ????
I'll send you a PM.
-
Thank you. This sounds really bad but I would rather take T and live the next 15 years symptom free than live 30 more years (without T) in my current state. I can't imagine being more miserable than I am now. Thanks for your support
-
Demo,
I got your message. Can't thank you enough. Everybody speaks so highly of you on the POIS website. Now I know why. Thanks again.
-
You're most welcome!
-
TRT -- as Stef maintains -- has...risks! (e.g., I lost my sperm count -- prolly due to high TRT ).
edit:
Risks can include many possibilities, per Stef (RN) "including ...life-threatening risks (cardiac and liver toxicity are 2 examples)"
-
I had a testosterone bloodwork done a few weeks ago. My doctor has not yet said anything about it even during a recent followup. I called to ask the nurse what the results were. She said it was 385 testosterone and 8 free testosterone. Are these normal for a 26 year old, or are they on the low end, or are they flat out unacceptable?
They had me do the test around 9 am (VERY EARLY FOR ME) as I normally wake up around noon. I also had ejaculated about 8 hours prior to the test since I figured that would show my symptoms. I felt somewhat tired and fatigued at the time of the test early in the morning.
Any advise on my results is appreciated
-
I had a testosterone bloodwork done a few weeks ago. My doctor has not yet said anything about it even during a recent followup. I called to ask the nurse what the results were. She said it was 385 testosterone and 8 free testosterone. Are these normal for a 26 year old, or are they on the low end, or are they flat out unacceptable?
They had me do the test around 9 am (VERY EARLY FOR ME) as I normally wake up around noon. I also had ejaculated about 8 hours prior to the test since I figured that would show my symptoms. I felt somewhat tired and fatigued at the time of the test early in the morning.
Any advise on my results is appreciated
These are my last results with daily intake of 4-8mg Androderm via testosterone patches. Try to work with an endocrinologist. I don't feel qualified to advise you any more than that. I'm also much older than you. Best wishes!
Actual readings:
Component Value Range
Testosterone, total 806 250 - 1100 ng/dL
Testosterone, Free 201.3 * 35.0 - 155.0 pg/mL
*level too high
-
Hi,
My Testosterone Levels on 8/8/13.
Testosterone Total - 237, (Normal range is 160 - 728 ng/dL)
Testosterone Free - 0.243 (normal range/measurement unit was not listed in my results)
My Urologists said they are in the normal range and there is no need to take any steroids to increase the Testosterone.
I am having problems with erections and my libdo from past 6 - 12 months seems to be reducing/low.
I am planning to visit a doctor (general Physician/Internal Medicine) in couple of weeks or so and get my Testosterone levels checked again and will post how the results looks like.
I have a question...are the Testosterone supplements that you find over the counter (I saw Weider Prime [ http://www.weiderprime.com/ ] Testosterone Support for men, in COSTCO in it's northern California stores) any useful? has any one tried that kind of supplements before? If so, I would like to hear your experiences please.
-
I have a question...are the Testosterone supplements that you find over the counter (I saw Weider Prime [ http://www.weiderprime.com/ ] Testosterone Support for men, in COSTCO in it's northern California stores) any useful? has any one tried that kind of supplements before? If so, I would like to hear your experiences please.
I would be very suspicious. I've been a TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) user for POIS for several years now, and adhere strictly to my endocrinologist's and my GP's advice. Best wishes,
Demo
-
Just an update: suddenly, my insurance is arguing with my GP over whether or not they will cover his testosterone-recommended Rx for my POIS.
They want $480 if I pay out of pocket ! Box of 30, pharmacy won't break open a box to just give me a few days' worth. And according to doc, there are no withdrawal symptoms. Meanwhile I'm avoiding POIS :)
So I'll wait to see who wins the battle. Otherwise I'm stuck with no Rx (no patches - since a week ago Saturday - till 3/28).
-
Just an update: suddenly, my insurance is arguing with my GP over whether or not they will cover his testosterone-recommended Rx for my POIS.
They want $480 if I pay out of pocket ! Box of 30, pharmacy won't break open a box to just give me a few days' worth. And according to doc, there are no withdrawal symptoms. Meanwhile I'm avoiding POIS :)
So I'll wait to see who wins the battle. Otherwise I'm stuck with no Rx (no patches - since a week ago Saturday - till 3/28).
Wow. As someone who has been chronically on expensive medications, I understand these battles too well. I'm rooting for ya.
-
Thanks, Nightingale! :)
-
Have you tried testosterone cream? When I tried TRT last year my doctor had a compounding pharmacy make me three months worth cream for about $70
-
Have you tried testosterone cream? When I tried TRT last year my doctor had a compounding pharmacy make me three months worth cream for about $70
Excellent idea, G-man! My cousin uses it and it was one of 2 options (patches or cream) presented to me by my endocrinologist. Will take it up with my pharmacy, GP, and maybe my endo. Thanks.
-
Just an update: suddenly, my insurance is arguing with my GP over whether or not they will cover his testosterone-recommended Rx for my POIS.
They want $480 if I pay out of pocket ! Box of 30, pharmacy won't break open a box to just give me a few days' worth. And according to doc, there are no withdrawal symptoms. Meanwhile I'm avoiding POIS :)
So I'll wait to see who wins the battle. Otherwise I'm stuck with no Rx (no patches - since a week ago Saturday - till 3/28).
Hopefully you will get a suitable solution, that must be a bit of a shock when TRT has been such a solution for you Demo.
All th best
-
Thanks, Colm! :)
-
That's terrible, demografx. Is this the longest you've been without your Rx? In some sense, it's great that you're still avoiding your symptoms, even without the patches. Maybe you've been permanently cured! That's probably wishful thinking (but who knows). Let us know how everything goes, and hopefully you'll be able to get them back ASAP. (TRT is my favorite known POIS cure so far, even though I haven't tried it yet, but still thinking about it.)
-
Damn insurance companies! demo let us know, I hope you'll sort it out soon. If I were you I'd retire in a hermitage to avoid any kind of temptation :)
-
Have you tried testosterone cream? When I tried TRT last year my doctor had a compounding pharmacy make me three months worth cream for about $70
Excellent idea, G-man! My cousin uses it and it was one of 2 options (patches or cream) presented to me by my endocrinologist. Will take it up with my pharmacy, GP, and maybe my endo. Thanks.
Demo,
Why didn't you consider T shots?
FB
-
Demo,
Why didn't you consider T shots?
FB
FB, I did! It was the very first thing I did after I called a Czech Republic sexology expert, Dr Petr Weiss - weisspetr@volny.cz - recommended by a well known Johns Hopkins Univ. sexologist, Jane Thomas. She was referred after I called a sex expert who was on Larry King Live on CNN. Dr. Petr Weiss, on the phone, insisted that testosterone was the cure for my POIS. But I was skeptical: after decades of searching with zero results, could it be that simple??? But I was desperate (aren't we all?) so I jumped into T shots:
1. T shots stopped working for me after a few sessions, so...
2. ...I consulted a university endocrinologist who advised me that T shots are erratic -- they "spike" in and out of the system. T patches (or gel) provide a more steady, natural rhythm 24/7, which is much more aligned to and successfully mimics the way "real" testosterone courses through your body, according to my new endo friend.
The patches were recommended only after a full battery of hormonal tests and brain MRI of my pituitary gland was done: My low FREE testosterone result stuck out like a sore thumb. I was very lucky. At the time (about 5 years ago) much of the forum consensus was that POIS was a hormonal imbalance. And an old friend who is now a Harvard biophysicist and pioneered some HIV treatment for millions of people suffering worldwide suggested I see a university-related endo -- because universities tend to be more research oriented.
I keep monitoring my T-levels, and adjustments are implemented regularly now with my GP.
-
Just an update: suddenly, my insurance is arguing with my GP over whether or not they will cover his testosterone-recommended Rx for my POIS.
They want $480 if I pay out of pocket ! Box of 30, pharmacy won't break open a box to just give me a few days' worth. And according to doc, there are no withdrawal symptoms. Meanwhile I'm avoiding POIS :)
So I'll wait to see who wins the battle. Otherwise I'm stuck with no Rx (no patches - since a week ago Saturday - till 3/28).
Hopefully you will get a suitable solution, that must be a bit of a shock when TRT has been such a solution for you Demo.
All th best
I found the solution: stick to 30 patches/month which is all insurance allows (I still pay a hefty co-pay for insurance-covered Rx. May not be POIS optimum but so far it is ( don't know if my current surgical recovery plays a role, but thanks for reminding me I'm lucky the whole TRT thing is finally reasonably affordable.
Gotta pay mortgage! :)
-
Does the Total Testosterone say anything about the Free Testosterone? My Total T. looks pretty stable but I havent checked my Free t. yet.
05.05.2015
Total Testosterone: 713 ng/dl
Method: CLIA
Tested 8am in the morning and while in POIS State.
-
staypositive, I think they're different. "Free T" is the correct measure, according to what I've read and heard from docs. But I'm not an expert, so there may be other points of view re "Total T" vs "Free T".
My most recent results:
Actual readings:
Component Value Range
Testosterone, total 806 250 - 1100 ng/dL
Testosterone, Free 201.3 * 35.0 - 155.0 pg/mL
*level too high
As you can see, my Total T was "within normal range" but my FREE T was not.
My doctor (GP) reduced my T-patch Rx dosage based on my FREE readings -- not TOTAL.
Best wishes,
Demo
-
Hey guys. It's been a while since I've posted.
Two years ago when I joined, I just had an MRI scan of my brain because doctors were afraid that I had a pituitary tumor of some sort thanks to the abnormal level of prolactin in my blood stream, which may also have been causing my low testosterone. Well, unfortunately, although I had seen an endo, my insurance got messed up and I couldn't see a doctor for two years! Only just recently have I been able to reestablish contact with the doctor, but since it's been so long I had to "start" over - new blood work to confirm I have a hormone imbalance and any other irregularities. Not surprisingly, I got a call back that my testosterone levels (which I assume to be total) are around 180, so I've got the a-ok to go back to my endo and start over again. Interestingly, no mention of prolactin levels this time around.
I know there's research being done on the vagus nerve, and that could be the key to this whole mess. Unfortunately, life has caught up to me and I need a solution *now*, rather than later. I've procrastinated and waited too long for the research to be done since... well, around since I joined, and I can't any longer. So hopefully, if not TRT then some sort of hormonal compromise can be given to me for the short-term, so if or when the research provides fruitful results, I can get off TRT and onto whatever cure is produced. If not, then hopefully TRT can provide a safe net for me to at least function. It's gotten a lot worse, to the point where I can barely go to school and work is out of the question, so I'm in a lump - testosterone is my only solace at the moment. Specialists take a while to see, and so I actually won't be seeing the endo again until late July even though I made the appointment last Monday. But it's looking up for me. I'm confident that I can at least find a short-term solution... and if I have to be on TRT for the rest of my life, it's a worthy sacrifice because I *cannot* continue to function the way I am right now, because it simply isn't sustainable for a 23 year old male.
I'm glad to see you around though demo, you're proof that TRT works. Hopefully, it can work for me too. :)
I'll keep you guys updated in the following months on how my situation progresses.
-
staypositive, I think they're different. "Free T" is the correct measure, according to what I've read and heard from docs. But I'm not an expert, so there may be other points of view re "Total T" vs "Free T".
My most recent results:
Actual readings:
Component Value Range
Testosterone, total 806 250 - 1100 ng/dL
Testosterone, Free 201.3 * 35.0 - 155.0 pg/mL
*level too high
As you can see, my Total T was "within normal range" but my FREE T was not.
My doctor (GP) reduced my T-patch Rx dosage based on my FREE readings -- not TOTAL.
Best wishes,
Demo
If people talk about low testosterone is it about Free T. or Total T.? Or doesnt it matter at all
I thought it too that Free T. matters more than the Total T., but my doc said that my T. is probably okay since the Free T. is 1-2% of the Total T. so it should be in normal range. but hey im going to check this again this tuesday.
thanks for your response in advance.
-
staypositive, people do tend to throw the "T-word" around non-specifically. I'm guilty of that as well. But I personally with my doctors re POIS focus exclusively on my Free T.
These 2 sources may be helpful and shed light on Free T vs Total T:
http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=167&ContentID=testosterone_free
http://www.m.webmd.com/men/testosterone-15738
Demo
-
Hey guys. It's been a while since I've posted.
Two years ago when I joined, I just had an MRI scan of my brain because doctors were afraid that I had a pituitary tumor of some sort thanks to the abnormal level of prolactin in my blood stream, which may also have been causing my low testosterone. Well, unfortunately, although I had seen an endo, my insurance got messed up and I couldn't see a doctor for two years! Only just recently have I been able to reestablish contact with the doctor, but since it's been so long I had to "start" over - new blood work to confirm I have a hormone imbalance and any other irregularities. Not surprisingly, I got a call back that my testosterone levels (which I assume to be total) are around 180, so I've got the a-ok to go back to my endo and start over again. Interestingly, no mention of prolactin levels this time around.
I know there's research being done on the vagus nerve, and that could be the key to this whole mess. Unfortunately, life has caught up to me and I need a solution *now*, rather than later. I've procrastinated and waited too long for the research to be done since... well, around since I joined, and I can't any longer. So hopefully, if not TRT then some sort of hormonal compromise can be given to me for the short-term, so if or when the research provides fruitful results, I can get off TRT and onto whatever cure is produced. If not, then hopefully TRT can provide a safe net for me to at least function. It's gotten a lot worse, to the point where I can barely go to school and work is out of the question, so I'm in a lump - testosterone is my only solace at the moment. Specialists take a while to see, and so I actually won't be seeing the endo again until late July even though I made the appointment last Monday. But it's looking up for me. I'm confident that I can at least find a short-term solution... and if I have to be on TRT for the rest of my life, it's a worthy sacrifice because I *cannot* continue to function the way I am right now, because it simply isn't sustainable for a 23 year old male.
I'm glad to see you around though demo, you're proof that TRT works. Hopefully, it can work for me too. :)
I'll keep you guys updated in the following months on how my situation progresses.
lith65, Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) may well work for you, but at your age, please keep in mind that there are cardiac and other risks. Also: there is a fertility risk -- I lost my sperm not conclusively due to TRT, but a MAJOR suspicion that it's why it happened - but that was ok after fathering 2 sons with no plans for more (including daughters :) )
According to my endo, infertility is reversible. Sounds complicated to me but others may benefit from this possibility in order to start a family and then afterwards going back on TRT.
-
Hi,
It has been a long time writing in this forum.
I posted in POIS NAKED SCIENTISTS forum of my cure from for my problem from the practice of Yoga for just 3 months. But there was no reply for my post. I thought as earlier, I posted pre-maturely saying I was cured. Due to this many people not listen to me. I agree. I also shared small exercises (for 5 min) to test what I am saying is right.
Today I would like to inform that from as I posted in other forum, I cured by practicing Yoga for three months and my life fully changed and fully POIS free. I explained reason behind my problem in other forum. Yoga has cured me. Some of you may be remember last July 2014, how my life was in dangeour due to POIS, I was literally mad and suffered psychic problem and unnecessary wrong belief about other people. Due to god grace, I come back that mental problem (it is due to suffering from last 8 years in POIS) and started Yoga.. Finally cured.........
Today, why I posted here is today is FIRST INTERNATIONAL YOGA DAY AND IT IS CELEBRATING IN 196 COUNTRIES.. THIS IS ACCEPTED BY UNITED NATIONS COUNCIL THAT YOGA HAS SOME POWERS AND IT WILL CURE MANY ILLNESS AND LEAD TO HEALTHY LIFE.
INDIA'S PRIME MINISTER IS REQUESTED UNITED NATIONS COUNCIL IN ITS FIRST SPEECH ON YOGA AND TO ADOPT YOGA INTERNATIONAL DAY AND BECAUSE OF HIS REQUEST AND CONSIDERING THE BENEFIT, YOGA INTERNATIONAL DAY WAS ADOPTED. I WANTED TO TAKE A CURE FROM POIS LAST YEAR AND I WANTED TO CONSULT A REPUTED YOGA PRACTICTIONER TO HELP ME FOR POIS. AFTER CONTACTING MANY TIMES, FINALLY I GOT APPOINTMENT OF THE YOGA MASTER / THERAPIST OF OUR PRIME MINISTER AND INCURRED LOT OF EXPENSES. I EXPLAINED OUR POIS PROBLEMS, SHOWNED THIS FORUM AND OTHER POSTS, HE TEACHED ME SIMPLE 30 MINUTES YOGA I.E. SIMPLE EXERCISES. AND BECAUSE OF THIS, I CURED.
WHY I AM STRETCHING HERE IS I SEEKED OPINION FROM THE YOGA THERAPIST WHO IS A YOGA THERAPIST OF OUR COUNTRY'S PRIME MINISTER AND I CURED FROM POIS. PLS SEE MY POIS NAKED SCIENTISTS FORUM. BUT NO RESPONSE. BUT TODAY THIS THERAPHY IS CELEBRATING IN 196 COUNTRIES AND ALSO TODAY MORNING IT IS PRACTICED BY MEMBERS OF UNITED NATIONS COUNCIL IN NEW YORK.
MY HUMBLE REQUEST TO PLS CONSIDER THIS, I CURED NOT ONLY FROM POIS, BUT ALSO FROM MENTAL IMBALANCE DUE TO SUFFERING FROM POIS IN LAST YEARS. TODAY LEADING A HELATH LIFE AND POIS FREE LIFE. CAN WE DISCUSS IN DETAIL ON THIS?
-
Let us all keep in mind that aggressive-promotion-of-a-cure is not compatible with the spirit and nature of our discussions here.
Thank you.
Demo
-
Testosterone, total 4,910 ?g/l (reference 2.490 - 8.360)
Testosterone, free 8,80 ng/l (reference 8.90 - 42.50)
Sex hormone-binding globulin 14 noml/l (reference 18.3 - 54.1)
Free androgen index 121,78 (reference 35 - 93)
Just got the result back. Looks like my free T. and Sex hormone-binding globulin are both low. But is it too low?
-
I think that's between you and your doctor to discuss. I chose an endocrinologist for myself.
-
That's terrible, demografx. Is this the longest you've been without your Rx? In some sense, it's great that you're still avoiding your symptoms, even without the patches. Maybe you've been permanently cured! That's probably wishful thinking (but who knows). Let us know how everything goes, and hopefully you'll be able to get them back ASAP. (TRT is my favorite known POIS cure so far, even though I haven't tried it yet, but still thinking about it.)
Belated reply, Prancer!
Yes, this is the longest. Maybe I have been cured but I'm too chicken to find out! (I'm back on TRT).
-
Jim (after 3 ejaculations in the last 24 h before bloodtest) :
Total Testo : 4.7 [2.4 8.2] => NORMAL
Free Testo : 9.4 [8.2 42.5] => NORMAL, CLOSE TO LOW LIMIT
DHEA : 4770 [889 4270] => HIGH
-
So, what I think about these numbers.
First, my fats absorbtion is maybe not so bad. My total cholesterol is just under the low limit but my DHEA is high and my total testosterone is normal.
The bad point is the free testosterone which is the active form. With such low number, it's not surprising I can't get weight and muscles. If we except bio-avialable testosterone (showing tesosterone linked to albumin), the free testosterone must prove my SHBG is too high.
It's not surprising because I have magnesium deficiency .
When my Pois started, I didn't have muscle tremors, carbs problems.
Now, I think more and more Testosterone is not the culprit of Pois symptoms but a major factor because of its link with dopamine.
-
So, what I think about these numbers.
First, my fats absorbtion is maybe not so bad. My total cholesterol is just under the low limit but my DHEA is high and my total testosterone is normal.
The bad point is the free testosterone which is the active form. With such low number, it's not surprising I can't get weight and muscles. If we except bio-avialable testosterone (showing tesosterone linked to albumin), the free testosterone must prove my SHBG is too high.
It's not surprising because I have magnesium deficiency .
When my Pois started, I didn't have muscle tremors, carbs problems.
Now, I think more and more Testosterone is not the culprit of Pois symptoms but a major factor because of its link with dopamine.
My free testosterone is quite low and I still somehow managed to gain lots of muscles in a short amount of time. Took me 1-2 months to adjust to my new lifestyle(eat more and work out harder) but since then I can gain muscles quite easily.
The only thing I noticed is that I feel and look more ripped when in POIS-state, have hardly any fat on my body. But I think that also might be just subjective. I'm not sure if I could look even bigger or gain even faster when I would have normal testosterone. Will discuss that with my doc.
Can provide more informations if you're interested.
-
Thank you Staypositive.
I'm ok if you have suggestions to gain weight.
If not testosterone, dopamine is the key of Pois and its relation with intestine, I will concentrate myself on this point.
(my celiac exam is negative too, dispite i suspect gluten for digestive problems. Intestine = 50% dopa production)
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9360553)
-
I took a chance today and I upped my dosage of TRT.
It worked!
After 5+ years, I am simply grateful....not promoting my personal cure to anyone else! I am simply lucky!
-
Wait? Was your POIS coming back?
-
Due to major surgery/total lack of sex drive plus losing my TRT Rx temporarily (explained here elsewhere) I was worried about POIS-relapse. When I felt that "tiny glimmer of POIS" (remember, I am close to "cured" symptomatically -- but not 100% -- my 'alarms' went off. So I doubled up, and it removed symptoms 100%. My doctor will not allow me to double up permanently: not good for the heart....and insurance won't cover it.
I was just overly concerned that my Rx - insurance = no TRT for a while + hospitalization set back my POIS treatment.
-
I have allergies, POIS, many of the symptoms described.
how can we restart the methylation cycle ?
-
I have allergies, POIS, many of the symptoms described.
how can we restart the methylation cycle ?
Hi gueco, and welcome on this forum. It is already some relief to know we are not the only man in the world suffering from this problem, and aside form support, you will find useful information as well here about POIS.
You ask about the methylation cycle, so you seem to think that it has something to do with your POIS. Some members had good results with methylation support, like member Kurtosis, who has not been active here for a while, but you can find all of his posts on the forum, including those about methylation, like at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=468.msg7846#msg7846 .
What has lead you, gueco, to come to think that POIS has a link with a methylation cycle problem?
-
I have allergies, POIS, many of the symptoms described.
how can we restart the methylation cycle ?
Hi gueco, and welcome on this forum. It is already some relief to know we are not the only man in the world suffering from this problem, and aside form support, you will find useful information as well here about POIS.
You ask about the methylation cycle, so you seem to think that it has something to do with your POIS. Some members had good results with methylation support, like member Kurtosis, who has not been active here for a while, but you can find all of his posts on the forum, including those about methylation, like at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=468.msg7846#msg7846 .
What has lead you, gueco, to come to think that POIS has a link with a methylation cycle problem?
I really dont know. I just read the kurtosis theory and I thought maybe it had something to do with my case since I have so many problems with allergies and histamines. I am willing to try anything, doctors are not a big help.
-
I really dont know. I just read the kurtosis theory and I thought maybe it had something to do with my case since I have so many problems with allergies and histamines. I am willing to try anything, doctors are not a big help.
Hi gueco,
What are your main POIS symptoms? Do you have fatigue, brain fog, muscle and joint aches, mood swings, allergy symptoms?
Depending of your main symptoms you may try some of the things that have brought a certain degree of relief to members of this forum. For example, niacin, fenugreek, taurine, green tea, ibuprofen, are example of things that can help prevent or relief POIS symptoms. Have you try any of these yet? There are lots of other things that have helped some members, although there is not one supplement that have helped everybody. In any case, be sure to do it safely, with safe dosage, starting slowly, one thing at a time, and check with a health professional if it is ok for you,
Changes for a more healthy lifestyle, and in particular a healthier diet, have shown useful for many members. Check on the forum for more information about this, too.
-
I did read this all ( the 8 pages) I feel hopeless. Its unpossible to extract guidelines for my doctor to discuss wirh him. Exept sending me to an endicrinologist.
But will he be friendly (willing to study the syndrome)to pois? a syndrome is not an illlness.
But in any case I thil feel with empty hands after study this pois index pages. I think it will come out I will try nothing , but it is all very vague.
On the facebook site thee is a poisrelieve site. Its commercial . Does anyone tried the powder mix with result?
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100009315562978&fref=ts
I find it suspicious. I posted a vew friendly critical comments...but never been ansered by them.
-
...doctors are not a big help.
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/765EBC71-F286-447C-8EAC-FB5CE8EED5EF_5.jpg)
-
Hi gueco, and amsterdam,
Belated
Welcome
To POISCenter.com !
Please visit our Welcome
Page:
http://tinyurl.com/lwwns6z
-
My most recent results:
Actual readings:
Component Value Range
Testosterone, total 806 250 - 1100 ng/dL
Testosterone, Free 201.3 * 35.0 - 155.0 pg/mL
*level too high
As you can see, my Total T was "within normal range" but my FREE T was not.
My doctor (GP) reduced my T-patch Rx dosage based on my FREE readings -- not TOTAL.
Best wishes,
Demo
My most recent results (12/8/2015)...
Actual readings:
Component Value Range
Testosterone, total 536 250 - 1100 ng/dL
Testosterone, Free 109.7 35.0 - 155.0 pg/mL
My doctor wrote: "Your testosterone is in the normal range. You can stay on your current replacement dose." [4mg+/day].
-
Wish me luck tomorrow. After years of treatment, my insurance co. is hassling me once again and wants a conference call because my TRT is too expensive (box of 30 patches = $480 USD!). So tomorrow night we powwow to see what if anything can be done in December. I've been out of patches for days. Runaround activity between me, my GP, my pharmacy, my insurance provider. Exhausting...
-
Wish me luck tomorrow. After years of treatment, my insurance co. is hassling me once again and wants a conference call because my TRT is too expensive (box of 30 patches = $480 USD!). So tomorrow night we powwow to see what if anything can be done in December. I've been out of patches for days. Runaround activity between me, my GP, my pharmacy, my insurance provider. Exhausting...
Good luck, Demo! Your latest tests show your treatment is just fine, so it will help.
-
Good luck!
-
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/53104173-9AE3-47D1-91B1-C9244539A967_1.jpg)
-
Demo,
I hope that today went well and great to see all the support here.
Even if you had to reduce / revise, maybe there are now other ideas, thinking and strategies evolving from the research that will enable you long term to find other physiological supports and sustained health.
Colm
-
Wish me luck tomorrow. After years of treatment, my insurance co. is hassling me once again and wants a conference call because my TRT is too expensive (box of 30 patches = $480 USD!). So tomorrow night we powwow to see what if anything can be done in December. I've been out of patches for days. Runaround activity between me, my GP, my pharmacy, my insurance provider. Exhausting...
Good luck, Demo! Your latest tests show your treatment is just fine, so it will help.
Good luck!
Demo,
I hope that today went well and great to see all the support here.
Even if you had to reduce / revise, maybe there are now other ideas, thinking and strategies evolving from the research that will enable you long term to find other physiological supports and sustained health.
Colm
Good luck Demo.
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/6820E155-FB90-406F-926C-2E1A02BE18BF.png)
You did it! You guys brought me luck, they just now approved it. ($90 co-pay for 3 months). Without insurance: $1,440.00!
"Reduced" dose, as Colm predicted.
Rx fulfilled is now reduced to 90 4mg Androderm patches for 90 days (vs. 130 patches requested/prescribed).
It's OK with me, 90 patches will work.
This all happened because a generic form of this TRT just came out on the market.
-
Good luck Demo.
Do you remember your testosterone levels before you started TRT or just at the beginning (free and total Testo) ?
-
Thanks, b_jim!
I think that I posted those numbers on TNS.
I'll look for it.
Best wishes for the holidays!
demo
-
Do you remember your testosterone levels before you started TRT or just at the beginning (free and total Testo) ?
This is not the original (2008) reading you asked for b_jim (I searched NSF extensively, but no luck!), but this post below shows my condition 4+ years ago:
Quote from: demografx on 30/05/2011 21:13:42
For those of you interested in and following my TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) POIS treatment (I'm 80% POIS-free now, steadily, for 2 and 1/2 years after full hormonal bloodtesting, diagnosis, treatment and follow-up by my endocrinologist. My treatment consists of 15mg daily dosage of (3) Androderm testosterone patches.
My test results from May 25, 2011:
Testosterone, Free/Total Equilib Result Units Reference
Interval
Testosterone, Serum 376 ng/dL 193 - 740
Testosterone, Free 15.57 ng/dL 5.00 - 21.00
% Free Testosterone 4.14 % 1.50 - 4.20
-
Thanks, I saw these 2011 numbers on the TNS . I wonders if before you started TRT you had something like me : average Total T but low free T.
-
Thanks, I saw these 2011 numbers on the TNS . I wonders if before you started TRT you had something like me : average Total T but low free T.
b_jim, I just don't recall the specifics, I only remember that my 2008 readings on testosterone (total? free? I don't recollect) were "low", maybe "very low".
Best regards,
demo
-
Glad to read you were able to resolve that, demografx, and continue the TRT. Happy Holidays!!
-
Demo and all others possibly using trt... Or just POIS sufferers.
I wonder if vitamin D supplementation could also help you. Since it is known as a "steroid hormone" and calms the immune system while supposedly boosting testosterone (which also lowers immunity).
I was looking at my lab tests from 6 months ago and noticed a deficient vitamin D level ( it was 21 on a scale of 30-100 or something). So I started D supplementation yesterday and had a lot of good energy... And my dreams last night were so vivid and alive like I haven't slept that good in a while... I hope it continues tonight. My eyes did not have bags and looked really clear.
I also O'd 3 times today without problems, but that could also be from my diet. I did not take claritin d or any supplements beforehand. I will continue the vitamin D supplementation. All I do is take 400 ius in the morning which is 1 measily pill. Crazy it could have that much of an effect on me, but I am sensitive to certain vitamins and medications. Wonder if it could also have an affect on my food sensitivities which involve the immune system. ( I tried GF cheerios 2 days ago and immediately got mouth ulcers...this happens to me when I eat something I'm either allergic or sensitive to)
Wonder if anyone else had this experience with vitamin D.
* lol well I just looked and seems people discussed vitamin D before but whatever I'll leave this post.
-
...I wonder if vitamin D supplementation could also help you...
Thanks. I was put on vitamin D supplementation by my surgeon after my recent procedure. TRT is so powerful, I doubt I will see much of a difference. But I'm open to it.
-
Glad to read you were able to resolve that, demografx, and continue the TRT. Happy Holidays!!
Thanks, Prancer.
Happy Holidays to you and yours as well!
-
Demo and all others possibly using trt... Or just POIS sufferers.
I wonder if vitamin D supplementation could also help you. Since it is known as a "steroid hormone" and calms the immune system while supposedly boosting testosterone (which also lowers immunity).
I was looking at my lab tests from 6 months ago and noticed a deficient vitamin D level ( it was 21 on a scale of 30-100 or something). So I started D supplementation yesterday and had a lot of good energy... And my dreams last night were so vivid and alive like I haven't slept that good in a while... I hope it continues tonight. My eyes did not have bags and looked really clear.
I also O'd 3 times today without problems, but that could also be from my diet. I did not take claritin d or any supplements beforehand. I will continue the vitamin D supplementation. All I do is take 400 ius in the morning which is 1 measily pill. Crazy it could have that much of an effect on me, but I am sensitive to certain vitamins and medications. Wonder if it could also have an affect on my food sensitivities which involve the immune system. ( I tried GF cheerios 2 days ago and immediately got mouth ulcers...this happens to me when I eat something I'm either allergic or sensitive to)
Wonder if anyone else had this experience with vitamin D.
* lol well I just looked and seems people discussed vitamin D before but whatever I'll leave this post.
Hi GLC,
A few days ago, a new member, Username, have mentioned he had a positive effect from col liver oil, which is, among other thing, an excellent source of virtamin D ( and also, of vitamin A). You can read his post at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2086.msg17645#msg17645 .
I take vitamin D during winter. I live in Canada, quite north, and days are very short in winter, and vitamin D is produced by getting sunlight directly on your skin. We have only part of the face left to receive sunlight, when we go out skiing or playing in the snow. Vit D helps me avoid the bad effects of vit D deficiency, on immunity, on bones, and on general health. It may contributes to my overall control of POIS symptoms, but wasn't the main goal for taking it.
Traditionally , in Canada, people used to take cod liver oil in winter, and give CLO to their children, in order to stay healthy and avoid cold and flu.
-
Glad to read you were able to resolve that, demografx, and continue the TRT. Happy Holidays!!
Thanks, Prancer.
Happy Holidays to you and yours as well!
I just applied 2 patches to my arms -- feels good. Also nice to stare at 3 boxes' new supply!
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/12ADBCEF-C062-422A-B98E-941410996AAF_1.jpg)
Because Androderm is so expensive ($480/box*), for the last 7-8 years of my POIS treatment the insurance co-payment has always been a nervous, touch-and-go dark cloud!
I tried to elicit Watson Pharma's (Androderm mfr. - now Actavis Allergan) cooperation with a POIS-TRT clinical study but was not successful. Possibly because of the relatively small number of POISers worldwide -- compared to millions worldwide with hypogonadism (that's my official 'syndrome' to not rattle any medical establishment, i.e., hospitals, labs, insurance). Last thing I need is another conference call with the agenda: "POIS???? What the hell is THAT???" :)
*Hopefully the new generic version that just came out will be cheaper. But for some mysterious insurance reason, I don't qualify.
-
Sounds like the generic version has come to your rescue or whatever gods there are, were smiling down on you.
Glad you're well Demo.
Colm
-
Thank you, Colm!!
-
I may have been exaggerating the effects of vitamin D for me. It was simply not sustainable. I felt anxiety after a couple days on it. For some reason I am very sensitive to vitamins I don't know why. Just one measily pill of vitamin D 400 ius was enough to mess with me after taking it a few days. Even a little of vitamin c will mess with me. I wonder why that is.
-
Prancer since we have similar symptoms I wonder if vitamin D could help you... Look at my recent post in "testosterone"
So, I take vitamin D as part of my normal, daily vitamin supplementation (2,000 IU). For me, the effect on my symptoms is just "meh", if anything. It's an easy pill to take.
I continue taking it because it's a very important nutrient, but it has little to no effect on my POIS symptoms. Still a great suggestion though, thnx! Maybe others will benefit more than I am from it.
Did you get the mouth ulcers from eating chex too or just the cheerios? Were you allergic/food sensitive long before pois, or did this happen after as a result of pois? Thnx, just curious, and hope it's better fast. - Prancer
(Cheerios, I don't mess with those; those can drop a 900kg bison...saw it with my own eyes. I'm jk! lol) 3..2..1 Happy New Year!
-
3..2..1 Happy New
Year!
Thanks, Prancer! :)
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/71C65480-404B-4BF7-BD5F-5528DB7A7BDB.gif)
-
Prancer since we have similar symptoms I wonder if vitamin D could help you... Look at my recent post in "testosterone"
So, I take vitamin D as part of my normal, daily vitamin supplementation (2,000 IU). For me, the effect on my symptoms is just "meh", if anything. It's an easy pill to take.
I continue taking it because it's a very important nutrient, but it has little to no effect on my POIS symptoms. Still a great suggestion though, thnx! Maybe others will benefit more than I am from it.
Did you get the mouth ulcers from eating chex too or just the cheerios? Were you allergic/food sensitive long before pois, or did this happen after as a result of pois? Thnx, just curious, and hope it's better fast. - Prancer
(Cheerios, I don't mess with those; those can drop a 900kg bison...saw it with my own eyes. I'm jk! lol) 3..2..1 Happy New Year!
Are you sure your supplementation is actually increasing your vitd levels. I used 2000iu for about a year but when i did my test i was still extremely deficient. I got prescription for vitd2 50000 ius per week and that brought me up to normal range within three months. Doctor put me back on 2000iu vitd3 every day again, i redid the test within 6months and my levels had dropped again. So now i just use vitd2.
-
Are you sure your supplementation is actually increasing your vitd levels. I used 2000iu for about a year but when i did my test i was still extremely deficient. I got prescription for vitd2 50000 ius per week and that brought me up to normal range within three months. Doctor put me back on 2000iu vitd3 every day again, i redid the test within 6months and my levels had dropped again. So now i just use vitd2.
Hello CertainlyPOIS, so the direct answer to your question is "no", I don't know that for sure. It's something I'll think about though. I haven't had a vitamin D test recently, but it wasn't something I was extremely eager about for many reasons. Without going into all of them and making the post too long, in general it's because I'm just not convinced enough it will make much of a difference in my case. Could I still be D deficient? Yes, but even then I don't expect to have any overall POIS symptom relief. But I might not be deficient in the first place. Also, the testing for vitamin D isn't really necessary for most people (I know as POISers, we might not be "most people") [the source at bottom]. POIS itself might cause our levels to fall, rather than being the result of a low level, and taking vitamin D might be beneficial. The situation is complex, and not black & white, but I will definitely keep your situation/note in mind and possibly put a deeper focus into it. Thanks!!
Again, we probably don't fit into the "most people" category as POISers, but here is the link I mentioned earlier:
http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/vitamin-d-testing-recommended-people-201411267547
-
Hi guys, I am a newbie here although have been a silent spectator here for over an year. I am 30 years old, live in the UK and have been suffering from POIS for the past 8 years or so.
It is good to be able to put a name to the suffering we are going through, although the medical world is yet to come to acknowledge it.
I strongly believe that POIS is caused by a massive drop in testosterone level after orgasm. I had a blood profile test on day 2 of POIS which included checking my testosterone level and my testosterone level were way too low even for someone double my age. My testosterone count was 3.0 where the normal range should be within 7.6 - 31.4, no wonder I feel like crap during POIS. The 7.6 end of the range is for old men, so 3.0 is too low even for an old man let alone a 30 year old.
This may or may not have to do anything with the vagus nerve as suggested by the Rutgers study. But from my research it suggests that vagus nerve helps control the level of testosterone. The following website although not a medical website suggests: ?The vagus nerve is important for releasing testosterone. If it?s not working well, it could be a reason for low testosterone?
Link: http://selfhacked.com/2015/07/30/28-ways-to-stimulate-your-vagus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/
So it could be the case that we have a weak vagus nerve and so the testosterone is decreased way too much than for a normal person.
I would suggest that you guys also measure your testosterone levels on day 2 or so of your POIS, it would be a great way to find if this is a common theme. I know that Demografix has already benefited from TRT for his POIS.
-
Hi guys, I am a newbie here although have been a silent spectator here for over an year. I am 30 years old, live in the UK and have been suffering from POIS for the past 8 years or so.
It is good to be able to put a name to the suffering we are going through, although the medical world is yet to come to acknowledge it.
I strongly believe that POIS is caused by a massive drop in testosterone level after orgasm. I had a blood profile test on day 2 of POIS which included checking my testosterone level and my testosterone level were way too low even for someone double my age. My testosterone count was 3.0 where the normal range should be within 7.6 - 31.4, no wonder I feel like crap during POIS. The 7.6 end of the range is for old men, so 3.0 is too low even for an old man let alone a 30 year old.
This may or may not have to do anything with the vagus nerve as suggested by the Rutgers study. But from my research it suggests that vagus nerve helps control the level of testosterone. The following website although not a medical website suggests: ?The vagus nerve is important for releasing testosterone. If it?s not working well, it could be a reason for low testosterone?
Link: http://selfhacked.com/2015/07/30/28-ways-to-stimulate-your-vagus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/
So it could be the case that we have a weak vagus nerve and so the testosterone is decreased way too much than for a normal person.
I would suggest that you guys also measure your testosterone levels on day 2 or so of your POIS, it would be a great way to find if this is a common theme. I know that Demografix has already benefited from TRT for his POIS.
Have you had your testosterone measured when you were symptom free? For me personally, my testosterone level was that of an old man while in the POIS state and it was even lower than that when symptom free.
-
That?s interesting. For me, it was at the lower end of normal when not in POIS (8.1). When I took this reading I was relatively POIS free at one week after ejaculation. I have not managed to avoid ejaculation for more than a week or 10 days. It would be interesting to see if an extended abstinence will affect the reading in any way.
My guess is that we POISers already have reduced testosterone due to years of POIS, and ejaculation gets it even lower making us feel crap. I have never been totally POIS free for the last 4 or 5 years because as I said I have never staying away from ejaculation for more than a week or so.
When you did your POIS free reading, how many days passed since your ejaculation and were you totally POIS free symptomatically?
-
You are a firm believer, just like my sexual research advisor, Dr Petr Weiss from the Czech Republic. He told me testosterone was the key to my POIS. I thought he was crazy but now I believe him :)
-
petr.weiss@vfn.cz
Edit: I haven't spoken to him in years, I just found this @ http://www.sexuologickaspolecnost.cz/kontakt
vedecký sekretár:
Prof. PhDr. Petr Weiss, Ph.D.
Psychiatrická klinika 1.LF UK a VFN
Ke Karlovu 11, 12801 Praha 2
tel: 224-965344,5
raboch@cesnet.cz
-
I had my total testosterone checked about five hours post O, and it came back low at 320. I had the same test done when I was symptom free eleven days post O, and it was even lower at 260. What this all means, I am not sure yet.
I couldn't find the results for the symptom free test, then I realized I posted it a while back
-
You are a firm believer, just like my sexual research advisor, Dr Petr Weiss from the Czech Republic. He told me testosterone was the key to my POIS. I thought he was crazy but now I believe him :)
Hi Demografx, good to know that there are some researchers who believe in that as well. In your experience in this forum or elsewhere, do you know of any POISer who has had high testosterone measured or atleast in the mid-range? I know a few here have reported low testosterone, so want to know if there are any exceptions.
I suppose testosterone cause most of the symptoms we have, but the actual cause of lowered testosterone could be something else like the vagus nerve not functioning properly or high prolactin being produced by the body post-ejaculation. Hope the Rutgers research team look into the testosterone levels as well and find the root cause for it if it is low than control subjects.
-
I had my total testosterone checked about five hours post O, and it came back low at 320. I had the same test done when I was symptom free eleven days post O, and it was even lower at 260. What this all means, I am not sure yet.
I couldn't find the results for the symptom free test, then I realized I posted it a while back
Hi G-Man, thanks for posting your quote here. The reading you have posted seem to have different measurement scale to what we have here in the UK, so I am not able to directly compare with mine. Did you take both measurements early in the morning, because as the day goes by testosterone usually reduces.
Also, when does POIS peak for you, is it on the first day or second day. It could be the case that 5 hours was too close a time for seeing the full effect of reduction in testosterone. I took my reading on Day 2 which is like more than 36 hours post-ejaculation. I normally have full-POIS for a week or less.
-
You are a firm believer, just like my sexual research advisor, Dr Petr Weiss from the Czech Republic. He told me testosterone was the key to my POIS. I thought he was crazy but now I believe him :)
Hi Demografx, good to know that there are some researchers who believe in that as well. In your experience in this forum or elsewhere, do you know of any POISer who has had high testosterone measured or atleast in the mid-range? I know a few here have reported low testosterone, so want to know if there are any exceptions.
I think there were some in the mid-range you mentioned but I don't recall seeing "high" T.
You can always search both forums for "high testosterone".
-
I had my total testosterone checked about five hours post O, and it came back low at 320. I had the same test done when I was symptom free eleven days post O, and it was even lower at 260. What this all means, I am not sure yet.
I couldn't find the results for the symptom free test, then I realized I posted it a while back
Hi G-Man, thanks for posting your quote here. The reading you have posted seem to have different measurement scale to what we have here in the UK, so I am not able to directly compare with mine. Did you take both measurements early in the morning, because as the day goes by testosterone usually reduces.
Also, when does POIS peak for you, is it on the first day or second day. It could be the case that 5 hours was too close a time for seeing the full effect of reduction in testosterone. I took my reading on Day 2 which is like more than 36 hours post-ejaculation. I normally have full-POIS for a week or less.
The test 5 hours in was done at 8am. I'm not sure about the other one, but if I had to guess I would say 10-11am.
-
Man you guys are lucky... I can't take any vitamins now. Literally one small pill of vit D I feel like I've been injected with adrenaline and meth and serotonin or something...it is so weird. I just don't get it. So now I'm just sticking to diet.
And joelawrence that's interesting... Also the more testosterone the less immune response.
-
Also, my POIS symptoms peak around 2-2.5 days
-
And Prancer I think probably most grains can cause mouth ulcers in me. Not so sure about rice chex but I do feel pois symptoms from eating them
-
Man you guys are lucky... I can't take any vitamins now. Literally one small pill of vit D I feel like I've been injected with adrenaline and meth and serotonin or something...it is so weird. I just don't get it. So now I'm just sticking to diet.
And joelawrence that's interesting... Also the more testosterone the less immune response.
If I use to many vitd 3 in a day it messes with my sleep. At 2000 ius, even if i use it in the morning i have trouble falling as sleep. I used 8000iu one time, in addition to not being able to fall asleep i definately had more energy i thought i found the cure pois or something. When i use vitd2 50000 iu weekly i dont get any of these sideffects.
-
Hi Demografx, good to know that there are some researchers who believe in that as well. In your experience in this forum or elsewhere, do you know of any POISer who has had high testosterone measured or atleast in the mid-range? I know a few here have reported low testosterone, so want to know if there are any exceptions.
I think there were some in the mid-range you mentioned but I don't recall seeing "high" T.
You can always search both forums for "high testosterone".
I just got my total testosterone measured. I have 25.5 nmol/l, or 7.36 ng/ml, or 736 ng/dl which is in the normal range.
-
I wonder if high T via TRT could work for midrange POISers?
Just speculative thinking.
-
I wonder if high T via TRT could work for midrange POISers?
Good queestion !
After reading lot of testimonies, it's hard to think there is only 1 form of Pois.
Impossible to link all the elements in only one.
-
You're right, b_jim...some day we might need a "classification of POISers", maybe "clusters", e.g., cognitive POISers, physical POISers, non-NE POISers, etc.
-
I wonder if high T via TRT could work for [edit: SOME] midrange POISers?
Just speculative thinking.
b_jim, thanks for helping me make my post more accurate.
-
After reading lot of testimonies...
Hundreds!! :)
-
cross-posted from duplicate Testosterone thread:
Hi all, It's been a number of years since I've last posted on this forum, I've always lurked around and been an active reader.
I'm glad to report that I have had major success combating POIS and I can say to a large extent I am recovered from this malady.
For a number of years I've been self administrating testosterone in injectable form, having tried and tested a lot of the suggestions made on this forum and others, I've found nothing works better than administering testosterone.
Be warned if you were to try it without the aide of medical support and supervision it can be dangerous - [mod highlighting], I went through a massive change in personality and not for the better and generally unstable and irritable.
I had a massive pathological workup and a huge amount of money spent on blood tests and seeing various doctors, in the end I got nothing but sheer frustration and the feeling of hopelessness, the only thing that stood out in my tests was my low free testosterone reading. I was referred to an Endocrinologist and although it was agreed that my testosterone levels fell below the reference range 212 ng/dl (250-1100 ng/dl) RR, even with pressure, perseverance and persistence on my part for a trail of testosterone from the Endocrin, he was not having it and told me to go on my way with a good luck.
A very long story short I've been injecting 83 mg per week ie 1/3 of an ampoule, considering the ester weight and injection site loss the absorption would be ~ 50mg, the same as what the average human body produces.
My total cure to POIS is
Testosterone 83mg per week
Fexafenodine on the day of orgasm
Paroxitine daily (20mg - 40mg)
Tramadol 4 caps (50mg)
Niacin 1000mg an hour prior to sex/O
On that combination I feel NO effects of POIS and I am able to function normally the next day, this is just my account of what has worked for me, having read the forums I know I had a VERY severe case of pois where literally I was bed bound for weeks on end and never had a sense of well being even out of POIS.
I hope this serves as some food for thought and discussion and my experience can help someone out there with this curse of an illness, I don't know where my life would have been if I didn't take the brave step and tried to resource the best I could and experiment. I know that this curse of an illness would have taken it's toll on every aspect of my life. I'm doing well in the sense I have a heightened sense of mental clarity and I am able to function normally within society, something I was not able to before.
-
Thank you very much for your detailed post, Green, and many thanks for also pointing out the dangers!
-
Thanks Green for sharing this with us, huge congrats!
I love reading posts like this because it's very inspiring to read about successful and most importantly *legitimate* stories of symptom relief. Unlike many of the "cures" we see sometimes, symptom relief like this is both grounded in science and corroborated by several of our most trusted members like demografx, yourself and many others here. Like you said, people shouldn't just go out and attempt this on their own. It must be done with correctly with a lot of thought, preparation and with medical support, and it doesn't guarantee a fix for everyone. One thing in general that we can say with certainty is that "POIS can be cured or alleviated." That's an important statement to be able to make, and even though it doesn't necessarily apply universally to all sufferers, it means there's indisputable hope for a recovery. We hear about hope a lot when it comes to POIS, but the word is not always taken literally. Obviously lots more is to be learned via the research, but it's very great hearing about success like this. Thanks again Green, happy you're feeling better! Keep us updated if needed.
So questions, you went through a "massive change in personality" after the cure? Did this happen to you too demo? How's your libido before & after the cure? And do you have to limit yourself when it comes to orgasms (what's your frequency of orgasms post cure), and how do you feel immediately post O (relaxed, etc?) Thanks, and good work!
-
Demographx, have you ever done a sperm count test since TRT. That would be great to know if lowering the sperm count could be the culprit to lowering the inflammation.
-
Demographx, have you ever done a sperm count test since TRT. That would be great to know if lowering the sperm count could be the culprit to lowering the inflammation.
Hi Starsky,
After my vasectomy, absolutely no have changed in my POIS. This is been also the case for other POIS sufferers. So, low or null sperm count have no effect on POIS. If the hypersensitivity hypothesis is true, the allergen have to come from somewhere else "down the stream", like from seminal glands, the bulbourethral glands and/or the prostate.
-
Demographx, have you ever done a sperm count test since TRT. That would be great to know if lowering the sperm count could be the culprit to lowering the inflammation.
YES I DID AND MY SPERM COUNT WENT TO ZERO -- AS IN 0.00 !!
All caps because I want younger POISers to know the potential danger of TRT.
I don't KNOW 100% if it was the TRT that lowered my sperm count, but I'm very suspicious that it was. I have 2 grown offspring and have no further plans, but if you're just starting/contemplating a family then decide carefully.
demo
-
...you went through a "massive change in personality" after the cure? Did this happen to you too demo?...
I'm extremely fortunate in that I experienced a significant overall mood lift.
-
"The Vagus Nerve and Hormones"
From http://selfhacked.com/2015/07/30/28-ways-to-stimulate-your-vagus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/#The_Vagus_Nerve_and_Hormones
"The vagus nerve is important for releasing testosterone. If it’s not working well, it could be a reason for low testosterone.
Testosterone can make people more aggressive, but this is not the case when the vagus nerve is functioning right.
The vagus nerve can help reduce pain and this is the mechanism by which estradiol reduces pain in certain circumstances."
-
Article New York Times, today
Re. testosterone gel study
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/02/18/health/testosterone-gel-men-health-benefits.html?_r=0&referer=https://news.google.com/
-
Cross-posted from thread: "Any suggestion for Doctor visit in London?"
From your research and experience with TRT do you think TRT affects fertility drastically?
Yes.
But that's just my experience and opinion. Talk to a good endocrinologist. Mine told me that TRT infertility can be reversed. I have 2 grown offspring so it's not an issue for me (personally) any longer.
-
Hey everyone. I'm new to the form. I have been suffering from POIS for 7 years now, ever since I turned 18. It started with anxiety and depression and I've also had fibromyalgia/chronic fatigue for most of that time. Full list of symptoms: http://imgur.com/eoy9LjO
For a while I thought I just had a porn problem but upon experiencing bad brain fog after a nocturnal emission after a month or two of abstaining, I knew there had to be a problem outside of porn addiction.
I have tried every supplement known to man. For a while I thought my problems were from a lack of dopamine. Thinking maybe all my dopamine dropped off after O and was converted into prolactin or some other chemical. So I decided to try natural L-dopa. (mucuna pruriens) It helped me greatly.
I also started using a hormone balancing herb called "myomin" I found on amazon. It is supposed to get rid of bad estrogen and possibly increase testosterone. I stupidly took a bunch of supplements at the same time so I don't know which was doing what but I have narrowed it down to these two supplements.
It's possible I was just getting a 'high' from the mucuna but all my issues were pretty much gone. The change was drastic. I felt like everything was fixed and I felt amazing. I had bad days when I felt shitty again but for a bout a month or two I was feeling normal on some days which I haven't felt in so long. If I had an O, I would feel a little crumby the next day but after taking my supplements I felt better. Eventually I started feeling shitty all the time again but I think it might be because I went off the myomin and possible inconsistent quality of the mucuna. Also, something about winter seems to make my issues much worse.
So I thought my issues were all from a dopamine problem so I got put on pharmacy L-dopa for restless legs and it didn't really seem to do anything. So I looked up the other mechanisms of mucuna pruriens. It turns out it effects hormones and testosterone as well. There is evidence it can improve testosterone, sperm quality and hypothalamus, pituitary, adrenal, function.
Between the myomin and mucuna, this tells me that I was changing my hormone function, which is probably the cause of all my problems.
I got a blood test for all the standard hormone stuff from my doctor and he said everything was fine. However, my body and brain are telling me a very different story.
I have re-ordered the myomin and mucuna to try and improve what ever problems were being fixed before. I will let you guys know how it goes.
(So my current theory is that I have too much or too little of one or more hormones. Most likely something that comes from the hypothalamus, pituitary, adrenal axis, or thyroid. I think if we can correct the imbalance we can feel more or less normal. It's possible we have serotonin, dopamine, etc issue but I don't think that is the main problem, as I'm on anti depressants and they don't seem to be treating the right problem.)
(I have also had relief from maca, another hormone balancing herb, however it only works when abstaining for me. If I use it the day after an O it seems to make things worse. However I feel it is another clue to what is going on with me. The fact that it effects hormones tells me something is going on in that department.)
_____________________________________________________________________________
Here is some other research I have done on the HPA axis and hormone issues.
In my research something that I keep coming back to dysfunction of the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis.
"We reviewed previous studies that have described an association between abnormal functioning of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis and depression. In addition to melancholic depression, a spectrum of conditions may be associated with increased and prolonged activation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis. In contrast another group of states is characterized by hypoactivation of the stress system, rather than sustained activation, in which chronically reduced secretion of corticotropin releasing factor may result in pathological hypoarousal and an enhanced hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal negative feedback. Patients with atypical depression, seasonal affective disorder and chronic fatigue syndrome fall in this category." -
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=s1516-44462007000500005&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
In my case I have had trouble finding if my symptoms were coming from hyper-activation or hypo-activation of the HPA axis. The aforementioned findings implicate decreased HPA axis activity in the S.A.D., chronic fatigue, and atypical depression. CRH is the first in the cascade of hormones in the HPA axis. If mine were to be low it would cause issues with acth > cortisol.
"Lack of the hormone CRH also results in the feelings of extreme tiredness common to people suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome. Lack of CRH is also central to seasonal affective disorder (SAD), the feelings of fatigue and depression that plague some patients during winter months."
"Significant levels of chronic ACTH autoantibodies are a common pathological factor in CFS, AN and MD. These antibodies interfere with ACTH's ability to stimulate the production and secretion of cortisol, causing HPA dysregulation. As a result, patients suffer from the symptoms of adrenocortical insufficiency and the side effects of overactive cortisol-stimulating mechanisms utilized to compensate for this interference."
-
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/12ADBCEF-C062-422A-B98E-941410996AAF_1.jpg)
Successfully renewed today: $90 with insurance ($1,440 without)...3 months' Rx.
PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT I AM NOT PROMOTING TESTOSTERONE FOR POIS.
NO RESEARCH HAS BEEN DONE.
I'M JUST SHARING MY PARTICULAR EXPERIENCE ON THIS THREAD.
Best wishes to everyone for finding YOUR particular POIS treatment.
-
I really likethe idea that FREE TESTOSTERONE is more important than total testosterone for Pois.
We have study showing total testosterone is not influenced by ejaculation, but what about free testosterone ?
-
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/12ADBCEF-C062-422A-B98E-941410996AAF_1.jpg)
Successfully renewed today: $90 with insurance ($1,440 without)...3 months' Rx.
PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT I AM NOT PROMOTING TESTOSTERONE FOR POIS. NO RESEARCH HAS BEEN DONE. I'M JUST SHARING MY PARTICULAR EXPERIENCE ON THIS THREAD.
Best wishes to everyone for finding YOUR particular POIS treatment.
Good news for you Demo ! Happy days !!
Colm
-
Many thanks, Colm!
And back to you as well!
:)
-
I really likethe idea that FREE TESTOSTERONE is more important than total testosterone for Pois.
We have study showing total testosterone is not influenced by ejaculation, but what about free testosterone ?
Interesting question, b_jim.
-
From drugs.com forum: "How long does one [testosterone] patch last?"
http://www.drugs.com/answers/androderm-long-patch-2944531.html
-
Even after several years' TRT treatment, I found the above article useful, especially about confirming (for me) that in the evening (the blog author sez "10:00pm") is the ideal time to apply patches.
-
I think it has been written here (and sourced) that at the very beginning of the POIS cycle there is a massive drop in testosterone. I believe this, so I apply a LARGE dose of testosterone as soon as POIS begins, then taper off. I'm not sure my doctor would like what I'm doing, but, like so much of our POIS life, lacking real POIS experts "out there"...we all seem to make some independent decisions.
-
FYI - Testosterone link to heart attacks in men, say Edinburgh researchers
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-36100525
-
FB, well placed and interesting article: I had a quintuple coronary bypass, and TRT does not please my physician with the cardiac risks of TRT, but at least he understands that I need TRT for my POIS.
-
Some bodybuilders abuse testosterone with excessive amounts - supraphysiologic steroid levels - to gain muscle mass.
I wonder how much of the cardiac problems can be attributed to that.
The bodybuilder photo at the beginning of the article below reminded me of a similar conversation I had with my endocrinologist.
FYI - Testosterone link to heart attacks in men, say Edinburgh researchers
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-36100525
-
I thought I will brief my recent test results:
I met my GP for the first time last month with my private blood results taken in Oct last year. That private blood test indicated I had very low testosterone of 3.0 (minimum threshold of 8.0), high cholesterol, high liver enzymes and high TSH (Thyroid stimulating hormone). I showed him the test results and said to him that I am fatigued most of the time and have muscle pains, loss in concentration, etc. but did not mention about the connection with orgasm. He then had me take blood tests again in the public hospital for Testosterone, liver enzymes, thyroid and Fasting glucose (Diabetes).
The results from this blood test are:
Testosterone : Very low - 5.8 (minimum threshold of 8.0) although increased from last time because I took this test in the morning as overnight fasting was needed for the glucose test
Blood Glucose : High - 7.0 (max threshold of 6.0 for fasting)
Liver enzymes : High (dont know the values)
Thyroid : Normal (dont know the values)
For some reason my GP seemed more concerned about my high liver enzymes that the low testosterone or high glucose. Anyways he has asked me to come back in 2 months to re-do these tests to see any fluctuations. In these two months I am planning to reduce my orgasm frequency (from my current once every 3-4 days to once a week or less) and start moderate daily exercising as I have felt exercising and doing aerobic sports greatly helped with my POIS. I hope that this will help increase my testosterone which is also related to Blood Glucose apparently from my research.
I will report back the results of that test in a couple of months.
My details - Age: 30 yrs, have had POIS for around 9-10 years.
-
For some reason my GP seemed more concerned about my high liver enzymes that the low testosterone or high glucose. Anyways he has asked me to come back in 2 months to re-do these tests to see any fluctuations. In these two months I am planning to reduce my orgasm frequency (from my current once every 3-4 days to once a week or less) and start moderate daily exercising as I have felt exercising and doing aerobic sports greatly helped with my POIS. I hope that this will help increase my testosterone which is also related to Blood Glucose apparently from my research.
Hi joelawerence,
I personally have a "sluggish" liver, meaning a certain level of chronic liver failure, even if not that high. It seems to not be uncommon among POIS sufferers. Here is a discussion we had about this: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=555.msg17402#msg17402 .
In the following post, I share some of my strategies to help my liver cope better: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=555.msg17409#msg17409
In another (rather long) post, I gave some more detailed information at the end of the post, about how to help a sluggish liver. This guy had elevated ALT, a liver enzyme. As noted in the post, these suggestions are in no way replacing the advice of your doctor, and have to be discussed with him: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=555.msg17409#msg17409
-
For some reason my GP seemed more concerned about my high liver enzymes that the low testosterone or high glucose. Anyways he has asked me to come back in 2 months to re-do these tests to see any fluctuations. In these two months I am planning to reduce my orgasm frequency (from my current once every 3-4 days to once a week or less) and start moderate daily exercising as I have felt exercising and doing aerobic sports greatly helped with my POIS. I hope that this will help increase my testosterone which is also related to Blood Glucose apparently from my research.
Hi joelawerence,
I personally have a "sluggish" liver, meaning a certain level of chronic liver failure, even if not that high. It seems to not be uncommon among POIS sufferers. Here is a discussion we had about this: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=555.msg17402#msg17402 .
In the following post, I share some of my strategies to help my liver cope better: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=555.msg17409#msg17409
In another (rather long) post, I gave some more detailed information at the end of the post, about how to help a sluggish liver. This guy had elevated ALT, a liver enzyme. As noted in the post, these suggestions are in no way replacing the advice of your doctor, and have to be discussed with him: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=555.msg17409#msg17409
Thanks Quantum for the post links. Have you ever measured your liver enzymes? If so, what were their values? I believe that my high liver enzymes figures are due to a mild inflammation of the liver due to POIS. I think POIS causes general inflammation in most organs of the body, atleast in my case.
-
I've been out of my patches-for-POIS for several days now, can't renew till 6/17. Wish me luck, it's in the doc's hands, not hoping for anything. I told my pharmacist I feel like a street junkie waiting for his fix. :)
-
I've been out of my patches-for-POIS for several days now, can't renew till 6/17. Wish me luck, it's in the doc's hands, not hoping for anything. I told my pharmacist I feel like a street junkie waiting for his fix. :)
Whoever is reading this must have sent me some
magic well wishing signals,
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/826493C2-9F4A-4E33-B2F0-2EABE15E0580.gif)
my renewal's just been approved - for today, 90 patches/$90 co-pay. Whew.
Your TRT addict,
demo
:)
-
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/12ADBCEF-C062-422A-B98E-941410996AAF_1.jpg)
Successfully renewed today: $90 with insurance ($1,440 without)...3 months' Rx.
*****PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT I AM NOT PROMOTING TESTOSTERONE FOR POIS.
NO RESEARCH HAS BEEN DONE.
I'M JUST SHARING MY PARTICULAR EXPERIENCE ON THIS THREAD.*****
Best wishes to everyone for finding YOUR particular POIS treatment!
-
I'm thinking to a new idea :
Testosterone-Prolactine-Gaba.
I think testosterone might regulate prolactine (supposed to fluctuate after orgasm).
And then it might influence Gaba.
-
Now, I think more and more Testosterone is not the culprit of Pois symptoms but a major factor because of its link with dopamine.
b_jim, this is from an older post. If you still think so, it would be interesting to know more about your thinking or explanation of dopamine & testosterone?
-
b_jim,
I think it is more likely that high testosterone suppresses the immune system.
This has been discussed few times earlier in this forum...
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2168.msg17433#msg17433
The strong immune reaction post ejaculation could be inhibited by testosterone
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2013/12/in-men-high-testosterone-can-mean-weakened-immune-response-study-finds.html
Scientific papers:
https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/george-whipple-lab/documents/chang-papers/cv076.pdf
http://www.rug.nl/research/pathology/medbiol/pdf/sexhormones.pdf
But it is a mystery why the immune reaction occurs in POISERs...there have been posts by Quantum and others in this forum about how the cytokines released during the reaction would have an impact on our brain. Maybe the brain tries to dampen the immune reaction by activating the parasympathetic nerves (of which the vagus nerve is the primary nerve).
Thanks for the documents. Anyway, we have nothing to prove it's an immune reaction. Maybe, maybe not.
-
Now, I think more and more Testosterone is not the culprit of Pois symptoms but a major factor because of its link with dopamine.
b_jim, this is from an older post. If you still think so, it would be interesting to know more about your thinking or explanation of dopamine & testosterone?
I think we can find scientific links on the web but basicaly the male "alpha" (dominant) has the highest testosterone (strenght) and the highest dopamine (Character structure).
It's a general view. But you can find some direct link between male sexuality, testosterone and nervous system transmission and dopamine.
We know dopamine/serotonine are linked to male sexual activity (erection and ejaculation).
Some animal studies show the sexual activity of male is influenced by dopamine quantity in some brain aeras and this level is regulated by testosterone/NO.
-
Thank you, b_jim
-
Hi Demo, for my benefit and others on this forum it would be great if you can provide an overview of what your POIS symptoms were and post TRT which of them have decreased the most (percentage wise)
I have been tested for low testosterone twice now: first time was 3.0 in the evening and second time 5.6 early in morning (normal range 7.6 to 30.0). Both times it was Day 2 of POIS. My main symptoms are physical, I feel extremely fatigued when in POIS and mildly fatigued when not in POIS. I will explain my symptoms and what has worked and not worked as treatments in detail here for the benefits of others:
Symptoms:
1. Extreme fatigue, full body pain (especially back pain) and no strength in legs. I get easily tired just doing some simple chores
2. Extreme hair loss and now bald - My POIS symptoms and hair loss started almost at the same time when I was around 21 years old. I believe this is due to all my testosterone getting converted to DHT
3. Sleep a lot : I require atleast 9 to 10 hours of sleep and even after that I don?t feel refreshed. Just that I don?t get to sleep more than 8 hours due to my work
4. High internal body temperature: In POIS my body feels hot to the touch and internally also I feel very warm and cannot tolerate cold water on my body at all
Pressure behind the eyes
5. Cognitive symptoms : Feel low and depressed most of the time, hard to concentrate, no zest for life, etc.
6. Very dry skin and oily scalp : I can literally pat tissue on my scalp and forehead to see oil in just a few hours after shampooing. I believe this is also to do with high DHT. My skin especially face is very dry and moisturisers are not enough, I get flaky skin from parts of my face especially around nose despite daily applying good moisturisers
What has worked for me so far:
1. Heavy physical activity - The only time I have felt like 70 to 80% without POIS was when I was regularly playing cricket with friends. I used to play for like hours during weekends and funnily enough the more I played it seemed my POIS improved even more. Although I find exercising very difficult when in POIS but once the vicious cycle is broken heavy physical activity was the only thing that helped me
2. Alcohol: I occasionally drink alcohol and it removes my symptoms to 90% temporarily. Although I dont advice this for others due to the obvious other effects of alcohol
What hasnt worked for me:
Tried Nicain treatment as per this form, tried Fenugreek+Garlic, Probiotics at different points but they have not even been mildly effective for me
What I am doing now:
Nothing, still in POIS trying hard to try and hit the treadmill but not having the motivation or the strength to do it regularly. Coming back from work the only thought that runs in my mind is to lie on my sofa and watch TV or browse the net and social skills outside of my immediate family has become almost zero. I am not able to even play much with my 3 year old kid. I muster the strength somehow to play with him and engage with my wife and take them out some of the weekends but still the excitement factor in life is just not there because of the depressed mind and constant pain in my body.
What I am planning to do next:
I had thought of exercising regularly but have to get myself motivated and get my body prepared for that. We are planning to have another kid in a year or two time and that would be our last kid, so immediately after that I am planning to start on TRT as I am sure I will benefit from it. Till then the only thing that could help me is exercise.
-
Thanks alot, joelawerence, great post, with useful details. Would you mind if I copy it in the Personal Pois Summaries thread ?
I am sure Demo will answer you. I would be interested to hear if he, also, had no success with niacin.
-
I feel like I told my TRT story so much people are sick of hearing about it! ;D
I was briefly prescribed niacin, but it seemed to have no effect.
My overwhelmingly strongest POIS symptom was extreme debilitating fatigue -- mental, emotional, physical.
-
I feel like I told my TRT story so much people are sick of hearing about it! ;D
I was briefly prescribed niacin, but it seemed to have no effect.
My overwhelmingly strongest POIS symptom was extreme debilitating fatigue -- mental, emotional, physical.
Interesting that Niacin had no effect for you as well.
How much of the fatigue is reduced now - like 80% or so?
Can you post me some links of your cure story, would be very helpful for me :)
-
joelawerence, I think if you flip through this Testosterone thread you will see much of my story. Otherwise I wouldn't know where else to refer you, I made 10,000 posts between here and TNS-POIS (thenakedscientists.com) !...explaining my story over 10 years of posting :)
Fatigue reduction is about what you said: approx 80% (depending on other factors, it's sometimes 100%...or only 50%)
-
Cross-posted from "Familiar Place"
Quantum, do you think that the auto-immune theory is compatible with my effective personal choice of TRT treatment?
Yes, absolutely, because "testosterone deficiency has been linked with autoimmune disease and an increase in inflammatory markers, such as C-reactive protein (CRP), tumor necrosis factor, and interleukin-6 (IL-6). " - see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27325124
A characteristic of auto-immune is that immune markers are higher than normal, meaning the immune system is too active, and so active that it starts to make "mistakes" on the choice of its target and react on antigen that are normal "self" antigen of your own body. Normally, the immune system react only to non-self antigens from invading virus or bacteria, or to modified and abnormal self-antigens like when there is a cancerous mutation in one of your own cells.
So, if you have low testosterone and you raise testosterone back to normal levels through TRT, your pro-inflammatory cytokines markers like those mentioned above ( CRP, TNF-alpha, IL-6,...) will go down. I think that this is what is happening with your TRT treatment. Did you ever have those immune markers tested, before and after TRT ?
But there are other reasons than low testosterone causing higher than normal immune markers, so a POIS sufferer with already normal testosterone level will not be relieved by TRT - you have to find what is raising these pro-inflammatory markers, in each, specific case. That's part of the complexity of autoimmune diseases - and of POIS.
Auto-immune response comes from T-cells, not B-cells ( 2 different types of immune cells). It is interesting to note that testosterone will lower T-cells much more than B-cells ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27465811 , see in the "Discussion section"). It's in line with TRT being beneficial for the control of autoimmune disorders.
TRT is a relatively non-toxic way to lower autoimmunity. Many drugs, called immunosuppressants, used for the treatment of autoimmune diseases are far more toxic than that. Oral corticosteroids, like prednisone or dexamethasone, are often used in order to control flares in autoimmune diseases, because they lower the immunity, and are a form of immunosuppressants ( I recently read on the NSF forum a case of POIS relief with dexamethasone, as a matter of fact).
There are many unknowns about autoimmune diseases, but much research is done in this field today, so we will likely benefit from this.
-
Fascinating, Quantum!
But then again, perhaps I have just a wee bit of a bias with TRT?
-
I have been taking Vitamin D for the last few weeks on the advice of my GP. Initially I took it without any hope but it seems to be helping a bit with the physical symptoms and reduction in peak POIS time. I am taking 20,000 UI Vitamin D3 twice a week. It has decreased by extreme fatigue by about 40% or so and my peak POIS period seems to reduce from 7 days to about 4 days or so. Doesn?t seem to have much impact on improving cognitive symptoms though.
Having tried Niacin, fenugreek, curcumin, Garlic, etc. this this the only thing that has improved my symptoms somewhat. My theory is that I may be low in Vitamin D as well as I am dark skinned and living in the UK means that my body is able to generate very little Vitamin D on it?s own. Also in some studies it has been found to increase testosterone in those who are deficient, would be interesting if that is the case. I will keep taking it to see if it is a placebo or not. Anyone else had any benefits from taking Vitamin D supplements?
-
I have taken 2000 UI without any real improvement.
But this summer I spend all my time behind the sun. Does it help ? Dunno.
Look this testimony :
http://www.vitamindwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page_id=1723
Clearly vitamin D is another candidate to cure Pois.
-
For now my Pois symptoms are very reduced. I can even eat sugar. I don't know why.
-
Hey joelawerence, I'm in a similar situation to you in that most supplements do not have much affect on my POIS, but vitamin D has helped me considerably. I started on the vitamin D because I found out from 23andme that I had a mutation in my vitamin d receptor, and since then my immune system, fatigue and length of POIS have all improved quite a bit. I suspect this is due to the fact that vitamin D is a steroid, immunosuppressive, helps promote regulatory T cells, and because I was probably deficient in Vitamin D like the majority of people and probably an even larger majority of people with POIS.
Low levels of vitamin D have been implicated in a large number of autoimmune diseases, and although there is debate to whether it causes autoimmune diseases or if low levels are a result of autoimmune diseases, I think it will help with POIS.
From http://www.amymyersmd.com/2016/06/vitamin-d/
One study found that insufficient levels of Vitamin D have been reported in 36% of healthy adolescents and 57% of adults in the U.S. Other studies estimate that one billion people worldwide have insufficient Vitamin D levels. However, the rate of true Vitamin D deficiency is likely even higher, because new research indicates that the previous recommended levels of Vitamin D were actually too low.
...
Autoimmune diseases arise when your immune system is confused or overly stressed and begins attacking your own tissues instead of outside pathogens. Vitamin D prevents this by promoting regulatory T cells, which are responsible for accurately differentiating between outside invaders and ?self? cells. When active Vitamin D promotes them, it essentially makes your immune system smarter, teaching it to not attack itself and preventing the development of an autoimmune disease.
Research in this area is relatively recent, but there are a number of studies demonstrating higher rates of autoimmune disease, as well as a greater rate of autoimmune disease progression, among people with Vitamin D deficiency. Studies have linked Vitamin D deficiency with Multiple Sclerosis, Lupus, Rheumatoid Arthritis, and Type I Diabetes.
-
my response to vitamin D is similar to, i do wish it also helps cognitive symptoms.
-
Hey joelawerence, I'm in a similar situation to you in that most supplements do not have much affect on my POIS, but vitamin D has helped me considerably. I started on the vitamin D because I found out from 23andme that I had a mutation in my vitamin d receptor, and since then my immune system, fatigue and length of POIS have all improved quite a bit. I suspect this is due to the fact that vitamin D is a steroid, immunosuppressive, helps promote regulatory T cells, and because I was probably deficient in Vitamin D like the majority of people and probably an even larger majority of people with POIS.
Low levels of vitamin D have been implicated in a large number of autoimmune diseases, and although there is debate to whether it causes autoimmune diseases or if low levels are a result of autoimmune diseases, I think it will help with POIS.
From http://www.amymyersmd.com/2016/06/vitamin-d/
One study found that insufficient levels of Vitamin D have been reported in 36% of healthy adolescents and 57% of adults in the U.S. Other studies estimate that one billion people worldwide have insufficient Vitamin D levels. However, the rate of true Vitamin D deficiency is likely even higher, because new research indicates that the previous recommended levels of Vitamin D were actually too low.
...
Autoimmune diseases arise when your immune system is confused or overly stressed and begins attacking your own tissues instead of outside pathogens. Vitamin D prevents this by promoting regulatory T cells, which are responsible for accurately differentiating between outside invaders and ?self? cells. When active Vitamin D promotes them, it essentially makes your immune system smarter, teaching it to not attack itself and preventing the development of an autoimmune disease.
Research in this area is relatively recent, but there are a number of studies demonstrating higher rates of autoimmune disease, as well as a greater rate of autoimmune disease progression, among people with Vitamin D deficiency. Studies have linked Vitamin D deficiency with Multiple Sclerosis, Lupus, Rheumatoid Arthritis, and Type I Diabetes.
Great posts, TTP, joelawerence, et al., I think you should start a "Vitamin D" thread ( since this thread is titled Testosterone).
I live quite up north ( in Canada), and the winter are long here. I take 1000ui Vit D daily, from november to spring. currently, here, the sun is not up till 7h15 and already down at 15h50, so days are very short, and Vit D is fomred by sunlight on the skin..... and we are already in the snow, so I will not go out in shorts and t-shirt for the 5 next months !
-
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23392896
I have stopped taurine during 1 month and I feel the fatigue came back.
I had several ejaculation and my energy was not good at work.
Taurine seems to increase testosterone :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23392896
-
"Testosterone therapy, which is used by millions of men, can lead to serious heart-related side effects, including heart attacks. ... One of the most serious is an increased risk of heart attack. A number of studies link testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) to an increased risk of cardiovascular problems."
From drugwatch, December 9, 2015
I'm posting this for myself as well as for anyone else interested in TRT.
I've already started to reduce my dosage.
Significantly!
Demo
-
Any thoughts on trying to use supplements instead ?
-
what supplements,i dont think there are any fda approved or scientificially backed supplements that increase testosterone.
-
I read once in an article that there are, and I suspected that they are the same ones that are used for body building.
Idk, if there aren't any then that sucks.
-
I don't think there are any :(
Perhaps Quantum knows more.
EDIT Please see Quantum's post today (also re-posted below FYI):
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2289.msg20525#msg20525
-
Cross-posted from another thread
Hey, Quantum.
So lately I've be thinking about the possibility of Testosterone being the reason for Auto-immune attacks against the semen, but the thing is that the only known method to increase Testosterone is by TRT, and TRT is known for its bad effects on the heart and you saw what happened to Demo. So I was thinking, is there any way that we can increase testosterone with out using the TRT method ? where it's effective enough against POIS but doesn't carry heavy side effects ?
Hi Nas,
There are many things that can be done to help optimize your testosterone level. This has been looked into a lot, especially by the fitness community. If you make a critical review of many medical and fitness websites, you wiil find the following consensus:
- maintaining appropriate level of vitamin D ( 1000ui of Vitamin D a day is a safe dose and appropriate dose). The form usable by humans is vitamin D3
- maintaining appropriate levels of zinc ( zinc supplements often causes nausea, my favorite source of zinc is, by far, pumpkin seeds and sesame seeds - and they make a great snack - and organic, for sure, whenever possible :) )
- losing excess weight
- intensity and strength exercises ( it is the "use it or lose it" principle)
- avoiding all refined sugars ( a good thing in itself, it is no good for anything, healthwise)
- eat healthy fats, that are used as building blocks for testosterone ( olive oil, coconut oil, avocados,...) and avoid bad fats.
These are scientific based recommendations, and ways to optimize your own testosterone production. For example, it is known that hypogonadism can be caused by a zinc depletion. If you make sure you have enough zinc, you support your testosterone production.
(For a sample of website with a list of such recommendations, see http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/archive/2012/07/27/increase-testosterone-levels.aspx . )
On the supplement side, some members report relief with a herb called tongkat ali ( go to forum homepage and put "tongkat ali" in the upper left search box). I don't know much about this one, but good results have been mentioned, especially if combined with zinc.
On the prescription only side, clomiphene ( Clomid) is an alternative to TRT. Less side effects, but it is quite hard on the liver, and if you read my latest post on liver detoxification, you will know that any med toxic for the liver is not optimal for anyone, and surely not for someone with POIS ( see at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2431.msg20521#msg20521 about liver detoxification) . Note that clomiphene is known for treatment of infertility, but chances are your general practitioner may not know about it boosting testosterone levels. On the long run, you have to decide which one between TRT and clomiphene would be a "lesser bad". After all, that's why prescription only drugs are prescription only, don't they?
Raising the immune tolerance, as testosterone does, to whatever antigen we have in either the prostate or seminal glands or bulbourethral glands, is what I think is effective in TRT for POIS. So raising T should help. It's not the only issue in POIS, but one way to attack this multi-headed beast.
-
In light of my recent & very dangerous fainting episodes + my emergency pacemaker surgery, I think it's worth repeating: I've already started to reduce my testosterone dosage.
Significantly!
Special thanks to joelawerence for raising the issue.
Demo
-
In light of my recent & very dangerous fainting episodes + my emergency pacemaker surgery, I think it's worth repeating: I've already started to reduce my testosterone dosage.
Significantly!
Special thanks to joelawerence for raising the issue.
Demo
NP :). Hope you are getting better now.
-
Neurologist office test (memory, etc) today went very well. But no driving for 6 months :(
I hate it, it's the law, but it's prudent I think.
-
Cross-posted from crushgrapes' thread, "I'm willing to be your next TRT test subject"
« on: February 25, 2017, 07:01:32 PM
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=7vb1r5o5s4065hnjiqh2u28ps1&topic=2434.msg20584#new
Introduction
Have POIS for the most of my life and previously I never knew what this condition was called until not too long ago. Before I knew about the Waldinger recent study from 2016, I met my PCP and mentioned the symptoms from criterium/cluster I to her, what she was able to do was give me psychiatrist referral... Recently I've been taking this seriously and hope I can find a solution that would work long term. Like most of you here, after reading for a bit you already know that there is no easy solutions, some work, some don't, some temporarily. I tried many methods mentioned but none of them works except curcumin, zma, intermittent fasting but not doable on the long term which I will explain why later. The only time I felt like I was cured is when I on vacation overseas. 2 weeks within the city and 2 weeks on the country side, the only time I felt the best when I was at the country side where I was under the sun most of the time. But why?
Testosterone?
There many articles that indicates that people with low Vitamin D have low testosterone, which I do based on my several old blood test that has Vitamin D level of 11 pg/ml so ok I'm thinking all I have to do is up my Vitamin D intake. But my recent lab report from pcp checkup my levels were at 63 pg/ml and I still have POIS.
Going back to the vacation where I spent 4 weeks. The 2 weeks I was at the country side and during under the sun I never felt this good in my life. What I mean is that I can virtually eat anything I want with no adverse effects such as bad skin or acne. I do have a1c level at the pre diabetes range which I suspect comes from having low testosterone. My skin had bit of tan and was also glowing with no blemishes, it seems that my skin was healing very well and of course no POIS. I'm not surprised if the sun increased my testosterone and at the same time fixed my insulin levels.
The 4 weeks was like this,
- Week 1 - Walk around city, bad skin, have pois
- Week 2 and 3 - Walk around country side, good skin, no pois
- Week 4 - Walk around city, bad skin, brain fog
So what I see here the only major difference was that during city sightseeing I was always within the shadows of skyscrapers or building where as country side I was always within the sun light. The only reason I can think of is the increase of testosterone from the sun and as you read previously my Vitamin D levels are in range. I did more research and found out that Vitamin D supplements and Vitamin D from the sun are different, the D comes the sun is actually Vitamin D sulfate. I wasn't too sure but then I found a user that had similar experience that he felt much healthier when sun bathe but not through supplementation. It's 5 pages but its a very good read. His final solution was tanning which I don't think it was a good ideal.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/forum/the-primal-blueprint-forum-discussion/primal-blueprint-nutrition/98407-the-importance-of-sunlight-and-how-vitamin-d-supps-are-no-substitute
Most of my work and activities 90% of the are done indoors so there no way I would achieve any benefits from the sun due to the limited amount of time. I also live in the north east.
Waldinger Study
Thanks for Waldinger for the comprehensive study.
I agree with a lot of stuff he says in the study. I fall into the first category of POIS symptoms. I have several other form allergies presented. I have PE. I'm also especially agree with his conclusion about the pro inflammatory cytokines. Now check this out, this purely my individual experience. My lips/cheeks are a good indicator if I have inflammatory because I can feel it with my tongue that its swollen by swirling my inner cheeks, appearance is minuscule to the eye but definitely can feel. But each time I have a O, then you can see its swollen. I believe that I already have elevated inflammation and POIS would just exacerbates it further. Meaning that when I was at the country side POIS free, my lips/cheeks feel and look 100% percent normal.
Labs
I used it to compared to one of member who used zrt lab test named EDS for reference, last I read that he is on trt. There are a list of users from Demografx with members who also uses trt, I also saw Animus listed but looks like he did an operation? But anyways here my test below,
Me @ 2-3 days after O
Testosterone (Saliva) 110 pg/mL 44-148 (Age Dependent)
Cortisol (Saliva) 2.4 L ng/mL 3.7-9.5 (morning)
Cortisol (Saliva) 2.2 ng/mL 1.2-3.0 (noon)
Cortisol (Saliva) 0.5 L ng/mL 0.6-1.9 (evening)
Cortisol (Saliva) 0.4 ng/mL 0.4-1.0 (night)
Estradiol (Blood Spot) 38 pg/mL 12-56
Testosterone (Blood Spot) 229 L ng/dL 400-1200 (Age Dependent)
Ratio: T/SHBG (Blood Spot) N/A .7 - 1.0
DHEAS (Blood Spot) 245 ?g/dL 70-325
SHBG (Blood Spot) <15 L nmol/L 15-50
PSA (Blood Spot) <0.5 ng/mL <0.5-4 (optimal 0.5-2)
Free T4 (Blood Spot)* 1.7 ng/dL 0.7-2.5
Free T3 (Blood Spot) 3.6 pg/mL 2.5-6.5
TSH (Blood Spot) 0.5 ?U/mL 0.5-3.0
TPOab (Blood Spot)* 20 IU/mL 0-150 (70-150 borderline)
As you can see my testosterone is low at 229, low SHBG, upper range of estradiol. This is when I feel the worse. I have another lab where I have no sexy time for 3 months, look below.
3 Month No O
Testosterone 337.3 ng/dL 249.0-836.0
TSH 0.76 uIU/mL 0.27-4.20
Cortisol AM 12.3 ug/dL 6.2-19.4
HGB A1C 5.7 % H 4.0-5.6
So it seems like my base testosterone is at low 300. High a1c, normal cortisol. I still think my testosterone is too low but my endocrinologist says otherwise. I weight 130 at 5'9.
My Saliva Test @ 2-3 days after O
17-OHP, SALIVA, AM 45.4 H 19.5 - 25.9 pg/ml
ANDROSTENEDIONE,SALIVA,AM 155 H 7 - 89 pg/ml
Here you see that my androstenedione or DHT is high. This is probably why some people who O also have acne flares. If you look at the acne.org forum, members also question does sex/masturbation causes acne. What I read so far is that release of prolactin also increases dht and that increase/cause acne.
I have another blood result coming up that includes wider spectrum of different tests, I will update that once comes through.
EDS
15 minutes before ?O? at 10:00 pm ? result = normal @ 0.4 (range 0.4 ? 1.0)
15 minutes after at 10:45pm ? result = low @ 0.2 (range 1.2 ? 3.0)
The next morning - 9 hours after at 7:00 am ? result = low @ 3.3 (range 3.7 ? 9.5)
The next evening - 23 hours after at 9:00 pm ? result = low @ 0.1 (range 0.6 ? 1.9)
Estradiol ? result = high @ 58 (range 12 -56)
Testosterone ? result = low @ 342 (range 400 ? 1200)
Ratio T/SHBG ? result = low @ 0.3 (range 0.7 ? 1.0)
DHEAS ? result = normal @ 125 (range 70 ? 325
SHBG ? result = normal @ 36 (range 15 ? 50)
PSA ? result = normal @ 1.1 (range <0.5 ? 4)
Free T4 ? result = normal @ 0.7 ? 2.5)
Free T3 ? result = normal @ 3.4 (range 2.5 ? 6.5)
TSH ? result = normal @ 3.0 (range 0.5 ? 3.0)
TPO ? result = high @ 380 (range 0 ? 150 w/70 being borderline)
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg264567#msg264567
Supplements and Fasting
- Zinc
- Curcmin
- Intermittent Fasting
- Honorable mention - Saw Palmetto
Zinc - Reports comes in that zinc increases testosterone but I not sure it makes a significant impact on my test levels or through any supplementation. But I do believe that zinc is anti inflammatory cause it does work for me but temporarily for few hours. Normal lips/check and good skin.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3407988/
Curcumin - Also works like zinc and also temporarily and effects diminishes over time.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3753829/
Intermittent Fasting - I know this one does work but I'm not sure where the benefit is coming from cause there are contradictions that fasting decreases testosterone. But also at the same time I read reports that it decrease inflammation and increase testosterone. I can only keep up with fasting for several days because I would lose weight eating at lower calories, some reason if I eat the same calories as pre fasting it would not work. And I prefer not to lose any more weight since I'm already skinny as is.
https://authoritynutrition.com/10-health-benefits-of-intermittent-fasting/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Pituitary-testicular+axis+in+obese+men+during+short-term+fasting.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3106181
Saw Palmetto - Reduces dht by reducing ar5 that converts from testosterone to dht. Makes my skin 10 years younger but I don't use it anymore since there are sides effects if you get your dht too low. People usually use this to help with hair loss. Does not help with inflammation cytokines or testosterone for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%CE%B1-Reductase_inhibitor
My Opinion
What I mentioned so far is purely based on my experience. I think by having low testosterone causes an increase of inflammation. For me, my base level was at low 300 and after an O, my level goes down to low 200 and from there my lips/cheek swells indicating a release of inflammation coming from the O. And all that other nasty stuff that comes with it. This is how I concluded that by taking trt will help my POIS issue as I seen it worked for other people as well. I know that trt can causes infertility but I can use HCG to keep them at bay, I know it doesn't guarantee to work but I'm willing to try.
I wonder why Dr.Waldinger does not mention TRT since his website mentions that TRT has prevented POIS some members here but on his recent study he doesn't say anything about testosterone.
edit - My mistake, not his website.
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Inflammation.aspx
http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2012/6/testosterone-controversy/page-01
My Next Step
I made a appointment with a allergist to see what she has to say. I'm not sure what she can do besides doing more test, perhaps test to confirm inflammation issues. From there hopefully she can prescribe me trt or refer me to a endo or uro who is willing to help. If not, I will have to go through clinics. I will update once I get any news from the from full panel trt blood test. I might missed something here or there but do feel free to ask if something doesnt make sense.
Thanks, crushgrapes! I spoke with Dr. Waldinger after his 2011 report came out: he had no idea why TRT works for me.
Demo
-
hi guys,
i have after each orgasm a terrible headache, and those last days nearly a month i have a low sex drive, do you have an explanation for this and did you experience such these symptom's?
-
Still waiting for my testosterone results that was taken last Saturday and docs appointment on Monday.
@demografx
I read that the trt injections did not work for you and therefore you went with the adroderm patches. What kind of injection protocol were you on? If I do have low testosterone, I might try to go for daily sub q injections opposed to bi injections per week which is the standard protocol. This is based what I researched on that a person with low SHBG will do fair better with frequent injections and sine the injections are spread out, this should lower spikes and mimics the natural body testosterone output.
And also the members that you listed that were on trt, I would assume they initially have low testosterone to begin with. Is the correct.
-
@demografx
It's no problem, didn't realize that you were on TRT for that long lol. btw, is there anything you have to look out for during the time of your TRT?
Spoke with the allergist, shes not sure about the POIS but she told to check with a urologist. Seeing them can be a hit or miss and hesitant to put me on TRT due to my age / testosterone not low enough. I can confirm that I have a bunch of allergies that came up through the skin prick test that coincide with Waldingers study.
-
Hey Demo,
Why you don't consider it a 100% solution, do you still get POIS with ejaculation ?
-
Hi, crushgrapes, the injections were so long ago (10 years?), I really don't recall what the "Rx" was.
And 2nd question, about other TRT users at the forums, I don't think they posted their blood test results.
Sorry to disappoint.
I'm really glad you're looking at "spiking" + "mimicking the natural testosterone process". Very important in my view. And my endocrinologist's.
-
crushgrapes writes: "...didn't realize that you were on TRT for that long lol. btw, is there anything you have to look out for during the time of your TRT?"
I've written it all here at this thread and @ https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.new#new . It's been about 7 years on patches (poor results with injections & the urologist, so I temporarily stopped my TRT -- until I consulted the endo who put me on patches). Careful with testicular shrinkage (I escaped that side effect) and fertility: I'm not 100% sure if it was TRT or not, but my semen analysis (a special test) a few years ago showed Zero Sperm Count.. OK with me...I'm happy with the size of my family :)
You can read about my heart probs (possible cardiac side effects), but not sure if it's genetic and/or TRT. But anyone interested in TRT should consult carefully with their docs about testosterone, it's a powerful drug!
Anyway, my GP & I just cut my dose in half.
Many thanks,
Demo
Edited 3/7/17
-
For those interested in TRT--
Testosterone therapy's benefits and risks
By Susan Scutti, CNN
February 21, 2017
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/21/health/testosterone-therapy-study/
-
@demografx
I saw that thenakedscientist forum and was really impressed how big the thread was, it's great that people are in it to figure out the manifestation of POIS.
Thanks for the advice, I did wanted to go on TRT with those advisory in mind. I don't mind running into minor risk as long the benefits outweighs them but I do have to be mindful about the bigger ones. I hope you're still doing fine by dividing your doses.
So I got some updates. My labs came back in the low 200 for testosterone. I actually went a head and brought it to another urologist and he told me he heard about this before and it was rare. He did mention that his theory was that I already have low testosterone and by orgasm it would cause further drop in testosterone causing POIS. He wants me to do another blood draw so we'll see how that goes. If anyone is interested or in the NYC area I can refer you to him, just give me a PM.
-edit- I don't know if I can just put his name here, the only reason so far I'm willing to mention his name is that he acknowledges POIS. I'm currently under his diagnose so no final result yet. I will update if I have any new info.
-
EXCELLENT that your urologist acknowledges POIS!
My big-city urologists were disappointingly clueless.
Back then I thought, naively, "SURELY they must know all about POIS!"
-
@demografx
I saw that thenakedscientist forum and was really impressed how big the thread was, it's great that people are in it to figure out the manifestation of POIS.
Thanks for the advice, I did wanted to go on TRT with those advisory in mind. I don't mind running into minor risk as long the benefits outweighs them but I do have to be mindful about the bigger ones. I hope you're still doing fine by dividing your doses.
So I got some updates. My labs came back in the low 200 for testosterone. I actually went a head and brought it to another urologist and he told me he heard about this before and it was rare. He did mention that his theory was that I already have low testosterone and by orgasm it would cause further drop in testosterone causing POIS. He wants me to do another blood draw so we'll see how that goes. If anyone is interested or in the NYC area I can refer you to him, just give me a PM.
-edit- I don't know if I can just put his name here, the only reason so far I'm willing to mention his name is that he acknowledges POIS. I'm currently under his diagnose so no final result yet. I will update if I have any new info.
Nice
-
@demografx
I hope you're still doing fine by dividing your doses.
It's going well.
-
In case anyone is curious/interested, my daily dose is now 2mg/day Androderm testosterone patch. Previously double (4mg). My primary care doc is now happier with my reduced treatment due to potential cardiac side effects :)
-
Sorry guys if this is wrong section for this post, but maybe it can be useful in some statistics.
I tested my testosteron leves, total and free, both were in normal range for my age.
Total: 18,2 nmol/L normal range:(8,33-30,19)
Free: 14,37 pg/mL normal range: (7-22,7)
-
Thanks for posting, Spartak.
-
Cardiac risk?
Soon after I started TRT (testosterone replacement therapy), in 2008, via "patches", I had an emergency open heart surgery (5-way bypass) performed.
There's no evidence that the 2 are linked in any way but it's suspicious enough (in my case). Post-edit: I just realized that so much plaque obstruction which led to my surgery couldn't have happened so fast. Still, my primary care doc has not been thrilled with my TRT since the surgery, so...we both recently decided to cut my dose in half.
I've made indirect references to all of this before but I never before connected the dots/posted this way in one single post.
Be careful, everyone!
Best wishes,
Demo
-
Hey guys I'm back with some report and I got some OK and good news.
Good news,
TRT brings my POIS symptoms to few hours to 1 day most.
Ok news,
I don't believe TRT is a cure for my POIS.
I'm actually looking into my high level of 17-OHP or 17-Hydroxyprogesterone. From my understanding is that my 17-OHP is high or "clogged" because I am deficient in this particular enzyme called 21-hydroxylase and if you look at the flow chart, without 21-hydroxylase it prevents producing normal levels of cortisol. Perhaps low cortisol might play a role in POIS?
http://img.medscapestatic.com/pi/meds/ckb/00/43300.jpg
This study shows that sexual stimuli decreases cortisol so if my cortisol is low in the first place, having orgasm will decrease it further causing POIS symptoms?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2703719/
This overall condition is called congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH).
More information relating to low cortisol/testosterone through here.
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=11123.0
I would like to get off TRT if possible cause I don't really want to pin for the rest of my life unless I absolutely have to if the low cortisol issue is not related to POIS. I booked a endo to do a ACTH test to measure my adrenal functionality which will indicate whether I have CAH or not. The only treatment for CAH is through oral corticosteroids, suppose these are dangerous drugs but I read that its not so much if your adrenal already does not produce normal levels of cortisol.
Could testosterone / cortisol intertwine regards to POIS?
I will be back with updates.
-
Cardiac risk?
Soon after I started TRT (testosterone replacement therapy), in 2008, via "patches", I had an emergency open heart surgery (5-way bypass) performed.
There's no evidence that the 2 are linked in any way but it's suspicious enough (in my case). Post-edit: I just realized that so much plaque obstruction which led to my surgery couldn't have happened so fast. Still, my primary care doc has not been thrilled with my TRT since the surgery, so...we both recently decided to cut my dose in half.
I've made indirect references to all of this before but I never before connected the dots/posted this way in one single post.
Be careful, everyone!
Best wishes,
Demo
Thanks for the heads up.
-
Hey guys I'm back with some report and I got some OK and good news.
Good news,
TRT brings my POIS symptoms to few hours to 1 day most.
Ok news,
I don't believe TRT is a cure for my POIS.
I'm actually looking into my high level of 17-OHP or 17-Hydroxyprogesterone. From my understanding is that my 17-OHP is high or "clogged" because I am deficient in this particular enzyme called 21-hydroxylase and if you look at the flow chart, without 21-hydroxylase it prevents producing normal levels of cortisol. Perhaps low cortisol might play a role in POIS?
http://img.medscapestatic.com/pi/meds/ckb/00/43300.jpg
This study shows that sexual stimuli decreases cortisol so if my cortisol is low in the first place, having orgasm will decrease it further causing POIS symptoms?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2703719/
This overall condition is called congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH).
More information relating to low cortisol/testosterone through here.
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=11123.0
I would like to get off TRT if possible cause I don't really want to pin for the rest of my life unless I absolutely have to if the low cortisol issue is not related to POIS. I booked a endo to do a ACTH test to measure my adrenal functionality which will indicate whether I have CAH or not. The only treatment for CAH is through oral corticosteroids, suppose these are dangerous drugs but I read that its not so much if your adrenal already does not produce normal levels of cortisol.
Could testosterone / cortisol intertwine regards to POIS?
I will be back with updates.
Thanks Crushgrapes for the update. How long have been doing TRT and have you checked what your testosterone level is now? Also other than reduction in duration of POIS symptoms has there been any improvement in symptoms severity?
I suppose you have to give TRT a longer trial to see how it works either way, as testosterone will take time to increase over a period of time.
-
Hey joelawerence,
I've have been on TRT about a month, I don't know my test level as I have not done the test yet but for sure its higher than my base level at 300. My symptoms severity went down I would say about 90% and I would feel absolutely fine the next day. One interested note is that when I did my first injection I felt front of my brain behind forehead being "lit up", a tingling sensation that never happen again after initial injection.
-
I am self-medicating TRT. Has anyone who tried TRT succeeded in further reducing symptoms, when on TRT? I'd say TRT removes most of the stuff for me, but has anyone gone step further? This is only beginning of taking it (I'm about ~1,5 weeks in) so it'll get better. Nevertheless I thought I should ask.
I'm thinking I have low cortisol, I yet have to test it.
-
I am self-medicating TRT. Has anyone who tried TRT succeeded in further reducing symptoms, when on TRT? I'd say TRT removes most of the stuff for me, but has anyone gone step further? This is only beginning of taking it (I'm about ~1,5 weeks in) so it'll get better. Nevertheless I thought I should ask.
I'm thinking I have low cortisol, I yet have to test it.
Thanks Limitbreaker for your post. I think it is a little dangerous to self medicate TRT as in the long run you will need to monitor other hormone levels like Estrogen which usually increase with TRT. So better to get a doctor to prescribe it to you and monitor you.
What are the symptoms that have reduced for you with TRT and what symptoms still persist? Thanks.
-
Limitbreaker, I agree with joelawerence.
Self-medicating TRT sounds dangerous to me.
-
I am going to test for E2 on a regular basis and act accordingly. I have some Aromasin (an AI) on the way to me. I am also going to donate blood every couple months to reduce hematocrits.
The problem is that I may or may not find a doctor that'd prescribe me TRT in Poland as I am very young (22). I'm a person of doing most of stuff myself. Last time I've searched for a doctor I've found an endocrinologist that was supposedly the best in my area (200km ~), 5 star and so on. Paid her for the visit what is 1/12th of my monthly money and she'd look at my testosterone, which was 245ng/dL at the time day after orgasm and she said it was in range. I am not going to waste money for doctors whom I must educate, not the other way around. I will be looking for a doctor but as a side quest, not as my main quest. I want to eventually find someone who respects how much reading, observing and experimenting I went through to find out what is going on with my body, not just shrug it off like if what I did was completely worthless. She directed me to get gastroscopy and colonoscopy, but the problem is I went to her privately, therefore she couldn't write me scripts for colono/gastroscopy for the insurance provided by the government. So I either wait 6 months to get those medical tests (one is in July, another is in... November), or pay for them. In case I pay for them I get them very quickly, but how many other tests is she gonna require? And eventually, she might not even give me the TRT.
I said to myself: fuck this. I rather pay money for testosterone than pay for a doctor lottery - I may get a good doctor or I may get someone completely useless, which is more likely as I haven't yet encountered a single doctor in my life who was truly invested in his patient. Plus I'd have to wait a dozen months if not more before I'd get better, simply because I do not have the money (and do not plan on having more) to invest in the medical tests. I rather spend that on testosterone (which costs, if we're speaking TRT levels, about 20$ a month tops) plus occasional lab tests that are required (which is maybe 20$ a month first couple months then it goes down as T/E2 levels stabilise). In my opinion testosterone therapy can be managed by oneself viably if one does the necessary research and educates oneself on the topic. Amount of stuff I can achieve outside of POIS mindset in 12 months is infinitely more worth it than spending 12 months on doctor tripping.
I plan to eventually find a doctor, but after I stabilise my own treatment. That might not be needed, though... Because so far it's getting better every day.
I've had two orgasms a couple weeks ago which devastated me badly, I did not expect this going down that hard on me, I'm not going back to this.
As for the symptoms. The way I've reacted so far (it's week 3) only proves my point to me. My fatigue is gone. I can exercise and not crash. I can eat a lot. My mood is more stable. I have healthy libido and a much healthier attitude to women, which before suffered a lot because I'd guilt-trip myself for being attracted to women and I couldn't stop it. I sleep and I feel refreshed when I wake up. I don't feel as overloaded with tasks, appointments, goals and have-to-dos as I used to. I can do a multitude of stuff I used to do and feel good about it, although I have yet a lot to learn (or unlearn) because my mental attitude is still a bit backwards.
My forgetfulness seem to have increased for a period of time. I've forgot to take a few things. I realize why - it is because my confidence went up so much that my usual anxiety patterns that should be turning on didn't turn on. For example I left my tent pack in a train. That's because when leaving the train no red light appeared in my mind "Did I take everything? Let's take a look." because I felt confident. I feel it is temporary and I need to re-train myself to operate in a different mindstate.
As to orgasms, coz that's probably what you want to hear the most. About 5-6 days ago I had 2 orgasms, the second the morning after the first one, which was the day before. That was about 2,5 weeks into my regimen. At first, couple hours after second orgasm I thought, I wonder if this is going to be bad. However the day was pretty ok. I felt a little weakness but nowhere as bad as 3-4 weeks ago when I also had 2 orgasms. Most importantly though, I felt absolutely ZERO mood swing. Previously I'd get very depressed, a lot of ruminating thoughts I couldn't stop, my girlfriend would often have to take care of me and I'd feel I despise her despite rationalizing that I do not, really, and that it is only because of the illness. This time though, completely zero emotional effects. I felt noticeably "slower" in my body and mind, but way towards "relaxed" than "fatigued" on the spectrum!
The next day I woke up after 8 hours of sleep REFRESHED. In fact, I felt like I never had an orgasm the day before at all. If I were some random non-POISer, I'd have never noticed anything off that day. I didn't feel any retardation, emotional swinging, brain fog, demotivation, fatigue etc. that day, but I've noticed some mental slowness and random, short bouts of slight fatigue which I did not have to nap/sleep off, I only had to sit down for a few to several minutes and do something non-exhausting like reading a light book/article or passively listening to music. Before, I'd need 2 naps in the day during which I had to lay completely still, only this would rejuvenate me and never fully. To sum up, I have only knew I was symptomatic because I was noticing it consciously and because I have experienced less or more subtle POIS many times, not because it felt so bad that it was impossible to ignore.
If I ever meet a doctor he'll just tell me I should get off my testosterone immidietaly because doctors look down upon self-medicating. And there is no way he's going to convince me to go back because I feel great and I have my bachelor's degree to write in following months, plus I screwed up this semester (because of POIS!) so I'll have to fix it during September. I still have my ups and downs but they're nowhere as unmanageable as they used to be. The best part is, it's going to get even better, it's only been 3 weeks or so and it is said about TRT that most effects take 3 months to manifest, and the full benefit is from 6th month onwards. It's already good. I've started to talk to strangers like I always liked to. I've started adding mass to my used-to-be-4-weeks-ago 120lbs body. Changes won't be done overnight, especially the mental habits that I've learned over past 3 years, like withdrawing from social life at the slightest glance of fatigue in fear of getting more fatigued. Guilt and undermining decision to orgasm every time I have an orgasm. This mental stuff can probably account for bigger percentage than I realize.
My first orgasm 5 days ago, shortly after orgasm I catched myself undermining whether I should have orgasmed or not. I'm glad I did catch myself doing that, because I do not support this habit anymore, it's redundant. I am still gonna control my orgasms but just for the sake of it, orgasms can fatigue and dull the mind in healthy people not just POISers, therefore it's a thing to be watched. But I don't feel restrained anymore, I used to feel like I have to do hard choices and could not accept the reality. I felt sick enough to be miserable but too proud to be supported.
I think I've written enough. I can't wait what time brings me. This is not a 100% cure right now, as there is some stuff missing for sure. But I am going to stay on it for at least a year and see where it takes me, now that I feel my body supports my lifestyle instead of sabotaging me. I might not even need checking cortisol in a few months because all this stuff can maybe get stable at last, provided the regeneratory benefit of testosterone. Cheers.
-
Thanks for the heads up.
I'm so glad you said that. I was afraid my post put everyone to sleep! :)
-
I read in my research about orgasm many years ago that after orgasm the testosterone rise, how it is possible in case of POIS that it decrease? Interesting stuff however.
-
It can be confusing and tricky. Contradictory statements abound if you read everything, especially *some* internet posts.
-
I read in my research about orgasm many years ago that after orgasm the testosterone rise, how it is possible in case of POIS that it decrease? Interesting stuff however.
" Rise " ?
It seems at least, that testicular activity is linked to ejaculation.
Then, we can imagine Poisers have abnormal activity (decreased activity) and then we have difficulty to "raise" the T levels like normal men.
-
Yes, b_jim, that's my understanding, too.
-
An update on my case. I have very low testosterone in the 5.0 range. I have been referred to an Endo who did some more tests and found my luteinizing hormone (LH) to be very low given my testosterone range. If the testes is struggling to produce testosterone then the LH levels should be very high as that is what instructs the testes to produce testosterone, so I have been diagnosed to have secondary hypogonadism. This means that the pituitary gland which produces LH is not doing it's job probably.
There could be two reasons for this - one is increased Estrogen which does a reverse feedback loop to pituitary gland to ask it to produce less LH. Another reason could be that the pituitary gland is a little lethargic but considering all my other pituitary gland hormones are normal it can be sort of ruled out. I don't think they checked my estrogen level so that will be the next course of action.
So anyone having POIS along with low testosterone I would urge you guys to measure your LH and Estrogen levels to check out if there are issues. Then try to increase your testosterone by reducing estrogen to possibly benefit from reduction in POIS.
-
After ejaculation I feel cold. I have the feeling to be more resistant to cold temperature when I take vitamin D. I suspect a link between vitamin D, testosterone and ejaculation.
-
After ejaculation I feel cold. I have the feeling to be more resistant to cold temperature when I take vitamin D. I suspect a link between vitamin D, testosterone and ejaculation.
I also feel cold. In my case it’s because my prostate is imflamed after ecajulation.
-
I didn't succes to avoid cold symptom today. Next time I will try 10000 UI 15 minutes before ejaculation. I feel my my hands becoming cold. There is vasoconstriction effect.
Some guys with Raynaud's syndrome have improvement with vit D.
It seems Raynaud sufferers have higher levels of homocysteine.
Monday I worked at low temperature (0-1°C) and I suffered from cold (day1).
Compared to saturday, I worked without gloves.
It's like if Pois activate a form of Rayaud syndrome.
Vitamine D seems not effective against this symtom.
Anyway with taurine and vitamine D I made my work without fatigue and without loss of concetration and it's a huge improvement compared to my state 15 years ago. No more hot flashes, no more sleep problems, no more digestive troubles....
-
That’s great b-jim. Do you take the taurine an hour before sexual activity and the vitamine D 15 minutes before?
-
I take the taurine 30 minutes before because it seems to be more effective (not sure).
I take the vitamine D during lunch to improve absorbtion.
I will try to change this point (30 minute or 15 minutes before). Not sure it will change something, maybe there is an important inertia of vitamine D in blood.
I make the hypothesis that vitamine D is "pumped" to synthetize testosterone or semen after ejaculation.
-
I take the taurine 30 minutes before because it seems to be more effective (not sure).
I take the vitamine D during lunch to improve absorbtion.
I will try to change this point (30 minute or 15 minutes before). Not sure it will change something, maybe there is an important inertia of vitamine D in blood.
I make the hypothesis that vitamine D is "pumped" to synthetize testosterone or semen after ejaculation.
Do you also take it every day
-
I also feel cold. In my case it’s because my prostate is imflamed after ecajulation.
I get the feeling like my Prostate swells up during erections and spasms hard during O and then is sore after..
-
I didn't succes to avoid cold symptom today. Next time I will try 10000 UI 15 minutes before ejaculation. I feel my my hands becoming cold. There is vasoconstriction effect.
Some guys with Raynaud's syndrome have improvement with vit D.
It seems Raynaud sufferers have higher levels of homocysteine.....
This is similar to what I have been saying for years that there is an abnormal blood pressure vasodilator/constrictor effect. It may not be the cause but there might be a chemical released that is causing it
-
I take 5000 UI 1 hour before ejaculation, and without taurine : it was terrible. Only worked 3 hours with low energy flu-like, cold like and poor concentration.
-
bjim do you still take taurine everyday.
-
I only take taurine before ejaculation ( so 1 or 2 times a week).
I took it every day during 2014,2015 and maybe 2016 but i got testicular problem.
No proof it was linked but I chose to take taurine just before ejaculation.
I don't understand how does it work.
Does it improves testosterone level ? Dopamine ? Semen synthesis ?
I have no idea.
-
Bjim, I told my doctor about your vitamine D routine. He said that it makes sense because vitamin D is well know as a helper against allergies like hay fever. Vitamin D turns your auto immune system.
-
Could testosterone / cortisol intertwine regards to POIS?
I wonder about this as well.
I’m on testosterone for POIS now (the subject of this thread :) ) for 8 years
Best holiday wishes
Demo
-
Vitamine D seems to be a failure :/ I recommand to make a bloodtest and keep good/high level but it seems not to be a direct factor of Pois.
I really would like to understand WHY taurine works.
I will try in 2018 a new supplement supposed to improve dopaminergic function, adding radiola, L-Tyrosine to taurine.
And i would like to understand why Testosterone and progesterone help some Poisers.
Testosterone in blood is responding to a 7 days cycles of abstinence.
-
(https://www.123greetingmessage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Happy-New-Year-2018-GIF.gif)
-
An update on my case. I have very low testosterone in the 5.0 range. I have been referred to an Endo who did some more tests and found my luteinizing hormone (LH) to be very low given my testosterone range. If the testes is struggling to produce testosterone then the LH levels should be very high as that is what instructs the testes to produce testosterone, so I have been diagnosed to have secondary hypogonadism. This means that the pituitary gland which produces LH is not doing it's job probably.
There could be two reasons for this - one is increased Estrogen which does a reverse feedback loop to pituitary gland to ask it to produce less LH. Another reason could be that the pituitary gland is a little lethargic but considering all my other pituitary gland hormones are normal it can be sort of ruled out. I don't think they checked my estrogen level so that will be the next course of action.
So anyone having POIS along with low testosterone I would urge you guys to measure your LH and Estrogen levels to check out if there are issues. Then try to increase your testosterone by reducing estrogen to possibly benefit from reduction in POIS.
What kind of medicines did you doctor gave you? A disfunction of the pituitary can explain the low testosterone.
-
After 10 years’ POIS treatment experimentation, my own, personal “cure” (by no means 100%) is:
• TRT
• a healthier lifestyle
Thank you for listening :)
But that DOESN’T mean that it will work for...YOU. Best wishes to everyone for finding YOUR personal, POIS treatment formula: what works for *one* POISer doesn’t mean it will work for...YOU. We’re all different!
Best wishes!!!
-
For those of you who have been following some of the more detailed info of my 10 years’ successful TRT treatment for my testosterone deficiency, resulting in greatly improved POIS symptoms... here are my latest lab results:
PREPARED for: “demografx”
Testosterone, Free, Total and SHBG (Women & Children/Men w/Androgen Deficiency) - Details
About This Test
Details/Past Results/Graph of Past Results
9/27/2018 6:38 AM
Component Results
Component
Value
Ref Range & Units
Status
Testosterone, LC-MS/MS (see my next post below for explanation of
LC-MS/MS)
300
300 - 720 ng/dL
Final
REFERENCE INTERVAL: Testosterone, LC-MS/MS
Access complete set of age- and/or gender-specific reference
intervals for this test in the XXXX Laboratory Test Directory
Test developed and characteristics determined by XXXX
Laboratories. See Compliance Statement B
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin
36
11 - 80 nmol/L
Final
REFERENCE INTERVAL: Sex Hormone Binding Globulin
Access complete set of age- and/or gender-specific reference
intervals for this test in the XXXX Laboratory Test Directory
Testosterone, Free LC-MS/MS
51.3
47.0 - 244.0 pg/mL
Final
To convert to pmol/L, multiply pg/mL by 3.47
The concentration of Free Testosterone is derived from a
mathematical expression based on the constant for the binding of
testosterone to sex hormone binding globulin.
REFERENCE INTERVAL: Testosterone, Free LC-MS/MS
Access complete set of age- and/or gender-specific reference
intervals for this test in the XXXX Laboratory Test Directory
Test developed and characteristics determined by XXXX
Laboratories. See Compliance Statement B
Performed by XXXX Laboratories,
Lab and Collection
Testosterone, Free, Total and SHBG (Women & Children/Men w/Androgen Deficiency) on 9/20/2018
Reviewed By
My Primary Care MD on 9/28/2018 8:08 AM
Collection Information
Specimen ID:
Blood
Collected:
9/20/2018 1434
Received:
9/21/2018 2227
Testing Performed By
XXXX Lab - Abbreviation
Name
Director
Address
Valid Date Range
XXXX Lab
-
What is an LC-MS/MS test?
Liquid chromatography–mass spectrometry (LC-MS) is an analytical chemistry technique that combines the physical separation capabilities of liquid chromatography (or HPLC) with the mass analysis capabilities of mass spectrometry (MS).
From:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_chromatography–mass_spectrometry
-
[Low testosterone reported] from [most] forum members here.
What are your actual statistics? How many forum POISers have reported low testosterone?
From February 2007 - - > till today
(currently 600+ registered forum members/POISers).
-
There is an interesting alternative to traditional TRT injections/gels called clomiphene (Clomid). According to the second link below, it does not have a negative effect on male fertility:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5508437/
https://www.dontcookyourballs.com/can-clomid-treat-male-infertility/
Here's a quote from another paper regarding TRT and fertility:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4854084/
"Alternatively, CC (clomiphene citrate) is commonly used as an alternative to TRT to treat hypogonadism in men wishing to preserve spermatogenesis. The ability to take an oral medicine that is relatively inexpensive and has good long-term safety data and is clinically efficacious at ameliorating hypogonadal symptoms is clearly advantageous."
-
There is an interesting alternative to traditional TRT injections/gels called clomiphene (Clomid). According to the second link below, it does not have a negative effect on male fertility:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5508437/
https://www.dontcookyourballs.com/can-clomid-treat-male-infertility/
Here's a quote from another paper regarding TRT and fertility:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4854084/
"Alternatively, CC (clomiphene citrate) is commonly used as an alternative to TRT to treat hypogonadism in men wishing to preserve spermatogenesis. The ability to take an oral medicine that is relatively inexpensive and has good long-term safety data and is clinically efficacious at ameliorating hypogonadal symptoms is clearly advantageous."
Interesting about Clomid. My POIS came in a period when my weight went 20 kilo’s (44lb) up. I used to play soccer 3 times a week. And I ate at home. Eveyday a fresh made meal from my parents. I was skinny but healthy. Then I graduated from the university and got a job. I stopped with soccer and ate fastfood and pasta. And I live in The Netherlands where there normally is not much sun. I think in that period my vitamin D leverl dropped. And also my TRT level. I think that was one of the many triggers to develop POIS. So taking Clomid is interestting. Is there another person who took this? I don’t wanna take TRT pills or patches because I am 41 years old. But my TRT level is a bit low. See my level on the blood test topic. I will aks my POIS doctor what he thinks about taking Clomid.
There is also link between low TRT and prostatitis (my main problem):
https://www.issm.info/news/sex-health-headlines/researchers-find-connection-between-low-testosterone-and-cp-cpps/
I saw that Quantum already wrote about Clomid:
On the prescription only side, clomiphene ( Clomid) is an alternative to TRT. Less side effects, but it is quite hard on the liver, and if you read my latest post on liver detoxification, you will know that any med toxic for the liver is not optimal for anyone, and surely not for someone with POIS ( see at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2431.msg20521#msg20521 about liver detoxification) . Note that clomiphene is known for treatment of infertility, but chances are your general practitioner may not know about it boosting testosterone levels. On the long run, you have to decide which one between TRT and clomiphene would be a "lesser bad". After all, that's why prescription only drugs are prescription only, don't they?
Raising the immune tolerance, as testosterone does, to whatever antigen we have in either the prostate or seminal glands or bulbourethral glands, is what I think is effective in TRT for POIS. So raising T should help. It's not the only issue in POIS, but one way to attack this multi-headed beast.
-
Interesting about Clomid. My POIS came in a period when my weight went 20 kilo’s (44lb) up. I used to play soccer 3 times a week. And I ate at home. Eveyday a fresh made meal from my parents. I was skinny but healthy. Then I graduated from the university and got a job. I stopped with soccer and ate fastfood and pasta. And I live in The Netherlands where there normally is not much sun. I think in that period my vitamin D leverl dropped. And also my TRT level. I think that was one of the many triggers to develop POIS. So taking Clomid is interestting. Is there another person who took this? I don’t wanna take TRT pills or patches because I am 41 years old. But my TRT level is a bit low. See my level on the blood test topic. I will aks my POIS doctor what he thinks about taking Clomid.
There is also link between low TRT and prostatitis (my main problem):
https://www.issm.info/news/sex-health-headlines/researchers-find-connection-between-low-testosterone-and-cp-cpps/
I saw that Quantum already wrote about Clomid:
Well, the good news is that Clomid is cheap and readily available. It was approved as a fertility drug in 1967, and has been available in a generic form for a long time. Its secondary properties of raising testosterone levels in men were only discovered relatively recently.
I would be interested to know what your POIS doctor thinks about Clomid. It sounds like you have other good reasons for increasing your testosterone levels, and hopefully your doctor will take those into consideration.
I had not seen Quantum's information about Clomid in the other thread, he shares some very interesting thoughts.
-
hurray, nice to see you again, you’re one of the very early members!
-
hurray, nice to see you again, you’re one of the very early members!
Hi Demo, good to see you too!
Yes, I think I joined in with the Naked Scientist forum discussion around page 40, of course you were there right from the beginning along with John21 and B_Jim :)
It's a great community, all working towards the same goal - beating POIS!
-
Demo, have you been checked for decreased bone mass density?
Association of Testosterone and Estradiol Deficiency with Osteoporosis and Rapid Bone Loss in Older Men
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/91/10/3908/2656491
-
Demo, have you been checked for decreased bone mass density?
Association of Testosterone and Estradiol Deficiency with Osteoporosis and Rapid Bone Loss in Older Men
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/91/10/3908/2656491
No, but I’ll send my Report to the Association ;D
-
Lately I’ve been forgetting to take my daily testosterone...too often.
It shows!
Even after 10 years of diligent treatment, the nasty, old symptoms have increased! Mainly in length of time to recover, not in the severity of the symptoms.
So...I’ve gone back to my daily regimen!! :) :)
-
I feel much better now in-and-out-of-POIS since going back to daily treatment.
Demo: follow your doctor’s advice!
-
It's a great community, all working towards the same goal - beating POIS!
Yes! And I wish we could all beat it to death! ;D
-
It's a great community, all working towards the same goal - beating POIS!
Yes! And I wish we could all beat it to death! ;D
hahaha :)
looks to me u got euphoria after you get back to T :)
i was the same during first week on trt
now my body accustomed to my new(natural) T level and i feel normal
no euphoria but still much better then i felt myself before trt
my life was miserable: constant depression, severe fatigue, severe pois symptoms, hard brain fog etc
not its gone :)
anyway glad for you
-
Thanks, david! ;D
-
3 *weeks* abstinence + TRT seems to be my anti-POIS formula.
(No, it’s still not 100% POIS-free - - BUT CLOSE!!).
Very little abstinence can still be...a POIS disaster.
Prior to TRT, I recall 3 *months* abstinence and still...POIS disaster.
I’m new to understanding MCAS. Does anyone think TRT & MCAS might be compatible theoretically?
-
3 *weeks* abstinence + TRT seems to be my anti-POIS formula.
(No, it’s still not 100% POIS-free - - BUT CLOSE!!).
Very little abstinence can still be...a POIS disaster.
Prior to TRT, I recall 3 *months* abstinence and still...POIS disaster.
I’m new to understanding MCAS. Does anyone think TRT & MCAS might be compatible theoretically?
Idk, but from what I have observed the majority of MCAS sufferes seem to be females. Perhaps lack of testosterone contributes to Mast Cells destabilization?
-
Thanks, Nas
-
Great PP that you found a doctor that can help you. But I have heard that when someone starts with TRT for a long time the body will have problems to make testosterone when you stop with the medication. I have low testosterone, but I do not want to start TRT because of this problem. Otherwise I would asked my doctor for TRT. If I were 60+ I would do it.
Vandemolen, yes, thank you for pointing out the risk of TRT for younger people.
-
Wish me luck. (For dramatic POIS-reduction).
After 13 days ‘free’...it’s now what I call “Day Zero” (The day of POIS onset. Day 1 is my first “24-hours-of-POIS” day), it’s now
7:10 AM PST, and I just took 2 Benadryls to force extra sleep! After a good night’s sleep.
Told my wife not to wake me up.
Also I’m sneezing hard :) :) ...but only 3x
Happy Martin Luther King Day!
All the best,
Demo
ps - almost forgot: I also just now doubled up on my Rx for testosterone (from 4mg to 8mg) due to my anticipated drop in testosterone level, in turn, due to POIS onset!
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HatefulKnobbyGlobefish-small.gif)
Don’t wake me up!
;D
-
It’s
8:56 9:28 9:44 AM PST...not asleep (too wired) but feeling a LITTLE better anyway :)
“Dried up” fingers sensation lessening...
Out of anxiety (extra TRT??)...just now devoured a huge breakfast...rapidly!
Your posts help!
-
Trying again (10:00 AM).
This time closing eyes :)
And listening to this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3f5lkEUD1ek
-
It worked!
When I awoke, (after 12:00 PM), I felt like Superman.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/eOewytQL4tOOA/giphy.gif)
As always, that feeling diminishes as the day wears on.
But overall, on this day, Day Zero...I’ve never felt better.
TRT + forced extra sleep + moderate abstinence is a huge leap forward for me since my old POIS days! (In the past, even 90 days’ abstinence didn’t help!)
I wish that for all POISers! I am proof (amongst other members here) that
S O M E T H I N G can help! (I felt hopeless against POIS in the past. But not now.)
-
love the aura type music! perfect to meditate/sleep too! good luck with day 1!
-
Many thanks, Limejuice!!!
-
Limejuice, today wasn’t as “miraculous”, it took me 3 brief naps to feel normal.
-
To summarize, this time around, on Day Zero (POIS onset) and on Day 1,
I struggled, alternating between feeling good and POIS-crappy (a new scientific term I just now originated). Forced extra sleep made a big difference.
Pre-TRT, it was 4-5 days of pure hell.
I’m not “selling” TRT here, just sharing my experience.
-
I struggled, alternating between feeling good and POIS-crappy (a new scientific term I just now originated).
POISious-crappiousis.
-
Nas:
(https://cdn2.iconfinder.com/data/icons/facebook-ui-colored/48/JD-18-512.png)
-
I struggled, alternating between feeling good and POIS-crappy (a new scientific term I just now originated).
POISious-crappiousis.
Thank you, Nas. I realize the importance of rigorous terminology at a forum with so much serious academic research going on!
-
What does this mean ?
http://journals.aace.com/doi/pdf/10.4158/EP161530.CR
Can this solve the "why TRT relieves POIS-symptoms" puzzle ?
-
What does this mean ?
http://journals.aace.com/doi/pdf/10.4158/EP161530.CR
Can this solve the "why TRT relieves POIS-symptoms" puzzle ?
Interesting paper. They are speculating about a possible link between testosterone and Tregs, just what I did in the regulatory T cell thread. I didn't know it could suppress NK cell proliferation. Tregs could be a potential target for POIS research.
-
Very interesting, Muon and portuguese_poiser!
-
For those of you who followed reading my “Superman” routine (see previous page), I’m having similar success (with similar procedures) this week. Today is Day 1, feeling pretty good.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/eOewytQL4tOOA/giphy.gif)
-
I’m on Day Zero, after 13 days’ abstinence. It’s 8:49 pm, starting to feel a little POISed (mainly my TEN FINGERTIPS DRIVING ME NUTS!), but for the earlier part of the day, I felt like (https://media.giphy.com/media/eOewytQL4tOOA/giphy.gif). I usually feel worse in the afternoon & evenings.
Forced a short nap with Aleve in the afternoon. FORCED EXTRA SLEEP works! I just now took 1 Benadryl, will take another later.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/05/c3/da/05c3dacfa325f41b968ee2756adde9d1.jpg)
ps - I don’t recommend taking lots of Benadryl and/or Aleve. Google their side effects. Harvard Univ studied Benadryl stating it could possibly contribute to dementia. I’ll let you know when I start mumbling to myself! ;D
-
Continuing from above...I awoke this morning (Day1) around 6:00am, plenty of sleep but feeling slightly POISed, so at 7:00am I took 2 Aleve, plus “extra” dose of TRT. I drifted and dozed till 10:00am, and now I feel like (https://media.giphy.com/media/eOewytQL4tOOA/giphy.gif) again. But knowing that as the day wears on, my Superman cape will probably wear down ;D, I might knock myself out again with 2 Benadryl’s.
Once again, I don’t recommend any of this *forced extra sleep* to anyone, especially the Benadryl.
-
My “Ten Fingertips POIS”
I’ll ***try*** to explain, but it’s difficult!
All ten fingertips feel:
- “sandy” (pre-TRT, a dermatologist confirmed my POIS-induced dermatitis).
- dried up
- no feelings there
- “bald”
- sometimes hot
- SOMETHING about it “drives me crazy”...maybe the psychic agony comes about because the fingertips contain nerve endings?
Unrelated, *fatigue* is also present. I had to sadly miss a morning walk with my son. If I push myself physically, I know I’ll get worse. I’ve learned NOT to fight the fatigue.
But this is all a FRACTION of what I experienced pre-TRT days. Back then it was 4-5 days like this. Unrelenting and at a much more intense/severe level of misery. Today, it’s much lighter POIS & 2 days max, often less.
-
Intresting, i must check my t lewels.
I went to my doc to asked that i want check m t lewels.
He asked me fwew questions , like , do i hawe libido( i hawe strong libido),
do you hawe erections in morning or erectile disfunc...
( i hawe hard erections no ED).
Then he sad that there is no reason to check it.
Those fatige is mistery, yeah you wright , no fight with "our" tipe of fatigue
on force, because it can be dewastating sometimes.
-
Then he said that there is no reason to check it.
That’s crazy! Find another doctor. Preferably an endocrinologist.
-
Continuing from above...I awoke this morning (Day1) around 6:00am, plenty of sleep but feeling slightly POISed, so at 7:00am I took 2 Aleve, plus “extra” dose of TRT. I drifted and dozed till 10:00am, and now I feel like (https://media.giphy.com/media/eOewytQL4tOOA/giphy.gif) again. But knowing that as the day wears on, my Superman cape will probably wear down ;D, I might knock myself out again with 2 Benadryl’s.
Once again, I don’t recommend any of this *forced extra sleep* to anyone, especially the Benadryl.
I took the 2 Benadryl, SLEPT yet again, it’s now 4:18pm, Day1, and I feel great.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/eOewytQL4tOOA/giphy.gif).
Before TRT, I could have never achieved this, with or without
Forced Extra Sleep.
-
It’s now about 1 hour later and I still feel good!
-
I awoke this morning (Day Zero) around 7:00am, plenty of sleep but obviously Day-Zero-POISed, so at 8:00am I took 2 Benadryl (50mg), which completely knocked me out (5 days ago, I quit my nightly dose as a general sleep aid, so the impact on this Benadryl-detoxed body was great), plus an “extra” dose of TRT, on the hypothesis that Day Zero brings an immediate drop in testosterone level). I slept soundly till 11:00am, and now (11:30am) I feel like (https://media.giphy.com/media/eOewytQL4tOOA/giphy.gif) . But knowing that as the day wears on, my Superman cape will probably
wear down ;D, I will simply...rest. And rest. And rest some more! Sadly, I called off my morning walk with my son.
Once again, I don’t recommend any of this *forced extra sleep* or
*beyond-recommended-TRT-dose-Rx* to anyone.
Harvard Medical School has written about Benadryl as a possible dementia contributor. That’s why I quit my nightly dose.
-
Virus-induced dysfunction of the endocrine system:
''Furthermore, of essential importance is the fact that viral infection of the testicular cells may result not only in changes in testicular function, a serious risk for the fertility and general health of the individual (such as a fall in testosteronemia leading to cachexia)''
Viruses in the Mammalian Male Genital Tract and Their Effects on the Reproductive System (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC99025/)
-
Thank you, Muon!
-
It’s now 12:08pm, and I can start to feel my maddening
POIS-fingertip-syndrome flare up. “More rest, please!!!” ;D ;D
-
It’s now 12:08pm, and I can start to feel my maddening
POIS-fingertip-syndrome flare up. “More rest, please!!!” ;D ;D
12:14pm...just took 2 Aleve in response to above :)
-
Virus-induced dysfunction of the endocrine system:
''Furthermore, of essential importance is the fact that viral infection of the testicular cells may result not only in changes in testicular function, a serious risk for the fertility and general health of the individual (such as a fall in testosteronemia leading to cachexia)''
Viruses in the Mammalian Male Genital Tract and Their Effects on the Reproductive System (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC99025/)
Looked up cachexia. Sounds exactly like my pre-TRT POIS-fatigue!!! Amazing. Could it be that POIS includes for my case a testicular viral infection?
-
Me: testicular problem at birth corrected by surgery. Hmmmmmm. The plot thickens, Muon!!
-
It’s 2:29pm Day Zero! And I’m still feeling like (https://media.giphy.com/media/eOewytQL4tOOA/giphy.gif) .
I attribute this feeling to my dessert at lunch!
(http://dhokaimacafe.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Apple-Pie-a-la-Mode.jpg)
-
In all seriousness, I wonder if my huge somewhat “unhealthy” lunch, plus a
T O N of sugar contributes to my feeling better now @ 2:58pm Day Zero?
If I’m conscious enough I’ll report back when my sugar rush starts to...crash
;D ;D
-
Sugar crash = nap = feel great again (for a while :) )
It’s 4:44pm
-
It’s 2:29pm Day Zero! And I’m still feeling like (https://media.giphy.com/media/eOewytQL4tOOA/giphy.gif) .
I attribute this feeling to my dessert at lunch!
(http://dhokaimacafe.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Apple-Pie-a-la-Mode.jpg)
Wow, fancy!
-
(http://dhokaimacafe.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Apple-Pie-a-la-Mode.jpg)
Wow, fancy!
Thanks, Nas!
I treated myself to my all time favorite dessert.
(Dutch apple pie a la mode).
That helps to ease the pain of POIS :)
-
It’s Day One, 8:58am and I feel Teriffic. BUT...I went to bed at 7:00pm last night, slept (sometimes fitfully) for 12 hours, itching like mad from all the extra testosterone :)
My family wasn’t thrilled with my zombie-like behavior on Day Zero...
but it worked: I was able to “shake off POIS”...earlier than usual...with
extra forced sleep and extra testosterone.
Not recommended if u want any form of social life ;D
-
I don’t know if my recent TRT+Forced Extra Sleep diary/journaling has helped anyone else here...but it has certainly helped...ME!
By paying more detailed attention to what I do (writing it down), I have somehow just achieved a breakthrough: POIS symptoms
*only* on Day Zero. And lighter symptoms at that! It was twice as long (and more painful) even just recently, and in the more distant pre-TRT past, 4-5 days of pure unadulterated POIS agony, getting progressively worse yearly! I’ll never understand how I accomplished as much as I did! But without POIS, who knows? Maybe I could’ve been a
Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or Sir Elton John ;D
I hope you all can achieve great breakthroughs...FASTER than I did with my many decades of trial & error (Mostly error ;D )
Best,
Demo
-
I hope you all can achieve great breakthroughs...FASTER than I did with my many decades of trial & error (mostly error ;D )
That's sad and disconcerting :/
-
I hope you all can achieve great breakthroughs...FASTER than I did with my many decades of trial & error (Mostly error ;D )
That's sad and disconcerting :/
Nas, don’t let it be, please! For DECADES, there was no forum, no “POIS” discovery by Waldinger, no networking. Just we POISers & the world. And it took
f o r e v e r to connect the dots between sex-and-symptoms.
Before 2007 we just never knew what we had.
Fast-forward to 2019, with a scientific, forum-funded POIS research project underway: THIS IS A MIRACLE.
It’s even a miracle from where we started as a primitive forum in 2007, wondering if ashawaganda root could cure POIS. (Without a stitch of rhyme or reason).
And Nas, Y O U R scientific expertise - along with others here - is truly astounding. You, Muon, nanna1, Quantum, Observer, Hopeoneday, & many others are a dream-come true for me and hundreds of other POISers.
-
I don’t know if my recent TRT+Forced Extra Sleep diary/journaling has helped anyone else here...but it has certainly helped...ME!
...
This is a Great Birthday Present for me today: being POIS-free. Dunno about later in the day, but so far so good!!!
-
It’s Day Zero and I’m (90%) POIS-free.
Why?
• Extra testosterone
• Aleve & rest
• Very stressful but very successful stage performance last night
It was the 3rd item that pushed me over the edge. (Positive edge :) )
-
Day 1: my energy level isn’t as good as yesterday :(
Partly because the energy lift of my stage performance has faded?
This POIS garbage is soooooo complicated!
-
4 months on TRT, brain fog is still lurking but my mood and the fog is like 60% gone. I still have POIS though, and the bad thing is that I am so horny due to the testosterone that I keep masturbating every day, and I have brain fog every day just because of this haha.
How long did it take for you guys to clear it up 90%?
-
quotz, TRT in tandem with moderation/abstinence works best, as with most POIS treatments so far.
So put some of your horns in the closet! ;D
4 months is probably at about the best level you will experience from this point forward. Just my own non-medical-practitioner’s opinion based on my personal peak at about 4-6 weeks.
-
At a new bloodtest my testosterone came out low again. I have out of POIS a few testosterone shortage symptoms:
Painful joints
Low back pain
Hair loss
Feeling tired
Insomnia. I wake up after four hours and can not fall asleep again.
Feeling depressed
Hot flushes
Sweating
Other symptoms:
Back and neck warm. Left foot too.
Feeling cold. Cold feet and hands.
No appetite
Lost five kilos in four weeks
Rash on chest and back.
Dry mouth and dry skin.
Headache.
Stinky urine
Are these symptoms familiar to men who had or have low testosterone?
My testosterone is 9. I read on the website of a Dutch hospital that their policy is to give patients who have a level between 8 and 12 3 months of testosterone. And men below 8 will get testosterone their whole live. Does this mean that your body is able to produce testosterone when you take it only for 3 months? I always thought that when you take TRT once you have to take it your whole life.
-
Years ago, my endocrinologist mentioned that there are ways to circumvent infertility, but I wasn’t having more children at my age, so I didn’t really delve into it. It would be a good question for an endocrinologist today.
-
That is good to know. Thanks.
Do you recognize the symptoms I have? I mean out of POIS.
In The Netherlands doctors do not want to prescribe TRT very fast. I read on a Dutch site that it is more normal in The US. If my testosterone was under 8 maybe it would be easier. But with 9 the doctor will only give it when he rules out other things. I am not sure that my SI joint pain is the cause of my problems (like insomnia and hot flushes) or maybe it is a symptom of too low testosterone. The last 5 years my testosterone level was between 12 and 10. Somtimes 10 and then 11. So not in a down going line. But this year it is just 9.
-
I think doctors here follow a similar pattern. Only prescribed when deemed “insufficient”.
-
At a new bloodtest my testosterone came out low again. I have out of POIS a few testosterone shortage symptoms:
Painful joints
Low back pain
Hair loss
Feeling tired
Insomnia. I wake up after four hours and can not fall asleep again.
Feeling depressed
Hot flushes
Sweating
Other symptoms:
Back and neck warm. Left foot too.
Feeling cold. Cold feet and hands.
No appetite
Lost five kilos in four weeks
Rash on chest and back.
Dry mouth and dry skin.
Headache.
Stinky urine
Are these symptoms familiar to men who had or have low testosterone?
My testosterone is 9. I read on the website of a Dutch hospital that their policy is to give patients who have a level between 8 and 12 3 months of testosterone. And men below 8 will get testosterone their whole live. Does this mean that your body is able to produce testosterone when you take it only for 3 months? I always thought that when you take TRT once you have to take it your whole life.
Maybe all these problems are not real? Maybe it is just mental, psychological problems? One thing is sure, I am depressed after almost 6 months in a POIS like episode. For me this is much worse than POIS.
-
I read on a Dutch website that people with anxiety get low testosterone. And anxiety and depression is treated with TRT. Is it that POIS-patients get anxiety and feeling depressed because of POIS? Or do you have to be a man with anxiety to get POIS? Of course there members here who do not have low testosterone. And I am not saying that anxiety is the only reason of POIS. But it could be a part of the problem. The problem with anxiety is that you do not know you have it. 3 years ago I started sweating when sitting in the car. I thought it was a hormonal problem or it has to do with POIS. But now I rembered that 3 years ago I had a car accident while I was on holiday. I was not injured, but it was a very stressfull situation. The other driver had a very expensive car and looked like a ganster. His car was damaged and it was my fault. Maybe that is the reason why I sweat when sitting in the car and when I lean back on the bench at home? And all the symptoms I mentioned above are psychological? Then maybe TRT might help me.
Because I used a lot antibiotics I thought antibiotics lowers testosterone, but it does not. Sometimes they found something in my urine to confirm it is UTI, but most times the urine was clean. I thought it was prostatitis, but maybe I just felt bad because of low testosterone?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC172780/
-
I blame myself why I did not eat meat just because I did not like it. Then my testosterone would be higher. I do not know if that could have prevented for getting POIS, but at least I would feel better out of POIS. To be honest I never felt a lot of joy. Since I was a kid I was feeling down. I also had two major accidents when I was a kid. If I could turn back time I would eat a lot of meat and never giving up sports.
-
Other symptoms conncected with low testosterone:
Having an ejaculation without orgasm (sometimes it has to do with the mind)
Weaker erection
-
Other symptoms conncected with low testosterone:
Having an ejaculation without orgasm (sometimes it has to do with the mind)
Weaker erection
It partly explains why you can go so long without ejaculation.
-
I blame myself why I did not eat meat just because I did not like it. Then my testosterone would be higher. I do not know if that could have prevented for getting POIS, but at least I would feel better out of POIS. To be honest I never felt a lot of joy. Since I was a kid I was feeling down. I also had two major accidents when I was a kid. If I could turn back time I would eat a lot of meat and never giving up sports.
Have you asked your doctor how you can increase testosterone without eating meat. Why don't you like meat.
-
I just do not like meat. I start eating meat again a few years ago. But not often. I know that eating almonds and olives are good. And doing sports. But in my state even when I having a short walk of 30 minutes I get hot flushes. In 2010 I went to the urologist because most of the times I could not have orgasms. My testosterone was 11. A bit too low, but the doctor said it was not the reason for not having O’s. He said maybe it could be psychological. Back then I did not knew POIS. Back then I did not want TRT. But now POiS is not my biggest problem. I have health issues out of POIS. Next week I will see an internist. I hope that I can try Androgel for 2 weeks and see if the hot flushes and other problems go away. I can buy it now online, but I want the advice of a doctor first. And prescribed Androgel is covered by my health insurrance.
Yes my erections are also weaker compared to 20 years ago. But I also developed tricks to delay the ejeculation. When I knew I had POiS (summer 2010) I knew I could not have so much sexual activity’s. I went from a few times a week to 2 times a month. So when I did it I did not wanted to end, so I delayed the ejaculation. Because I knew I had to wait at least two weeks for the next time. The last two years I had maybe 10 times sex. Because of prostate problems and the use of antibiotics. I also avoided looking at sex scenes in regular movies and series. Maybe that is also a reason why my testosterone went down so quick. From 11 in 2017 to 9 in 2019.
-
It seems I can decrease/increase Pois flu-like or inflammatory symptoms with diet.
But when I don't take taurine I feel low energy, lethargic. Is taurine influence my T ?
-
It seems I can decrease/increase Pois flu-like or inflammatory symptoms with diet.
But when I don't take taurine I feel low energy, lethargic. Is taurine influence my T ?
The last time i took taurine, i swear it increased my libido.
-
It seems I can decrease/increase Pois flu-like or inflammatory symptoms with diet.
But when I don't take taurine I feel low energy, lethargic. Is taurine influence my T ?
The last time i took taurine, i swear it increased my libido.
This study shows taurine increases testosterone...but they don’t know how.
Taurine enhances the sexual response and mating ability in aged male rats.
Yang J, et al. Adv Exp Med Biol. 2013.
Show full citation
Abstract
It has been demonstrated that taurine is abundant in male reproductive organs, and can be biosynthesized by testis, but the taurine concentration will reduce with aging. The levels of serum LH, T, NOS, and NO were found to be obviously increased by taurine supplementation in aged rats in our previous study. In addition, aging will result in a significant decline in sexual response and function, which may be attributed to the androgen deficiency. Furthermore, NO has been proposed as a crucial mediator of penile erection. That makes us hypothesize that there is potential relationship between taurine decline and erection dysfunction in aged males. So the primary aim of the present study was to investigate the effect of taurine on male sexuality in rats. Taurine was offered in water to male aged (20 months old) rats for 110 days. The effects of taurine on the sexual response, mating ability, levels of serum reproductive hormones, and penile NOS and NO levels were investigated. The results showed that taurine can significantly reduce the EL and ML; obviously increase the ERF, MF, IF, and EJF; stimulate the secretion of GnRH, LH, and T; and elevate penis NOS and NO level in aged rats. The results indicated that taurine can enhance the sexual response and mating ability in aged male rats by increasing the level of testosterone and NO, but the exact mechanism of which needs to be further investigated.
PMID 23392896 [Indexed for MEDLINE]
-
Nitric Oxide (NO) connection is interesting. That’s been discussed here for 10 years!
-
Thanks a lot !
-
b_jim, feel free to put my post in the Taurine thread also! You can do it or if you want me to post it there, just let me know :)
-
Thanks a lot !
Welcome!
-
Review Article | Published: 27 March 2019
What are the benefits and harms of testosterone therapy for male sexual dysfunction?—a systematic review
Konstantinos Dimitropoulos, Paolo Verze, […]Gert Dohle
International Journal of Impotence Research (2019)
Abstract
The role of Testosterone Therapy (TTh) in the management of male sexual dysfunction remains unclear. Objective of the authors was to systematically review the relevant literature assessing the benefits and harms of TTh in men with sexual dysfunction. EMBASE, MEDLINE, Cochrane Systematic Reviews—Cochrane Central Register of Controlled Trials (CENTRAL) (Cochrane HTA, DARE, HEED), Google Scholar, WHO international Clinical Trials Registry Platform Search Portal, CINAHL databases and clinicaltrial.gov were searched systematically in March 2015 and an updated search was performed in March 2016. Randomized and non-randomized comparative studies assessing the benefits and harms of TTh in hypogonadal, borderline eugonadal and eugonadal men suffering from sexual dysfunction were included. Risk of bias and confounding assessments were performed. A narrative synthesis was undertaken. Of the 6410 abstracts identified, 36 studies were judged to be eligible for inclusion, including 25 randomized clinical trials (RCTs) and 11 non-randomized comparative studies (NRCSs), recruiting a total of 4944 patients. RCTs were judged to have low or unclear risk of bias, while NRCSs had high risk of bias and thus, overall quality of evidence was judged to be at least unclear. Based on the evidence mainly provided by the RCTs included in this systematic review, TTh could be considered for men with low or low-normal testosterone levels and problems with their sexual desire, erectile function and satisfaction derived from intercourse and overall sexual life. The exact testosterone formulation, dosage and duration of treatment remain to be clarified, while the safety profile of TTh also remains unclear. TTh could be used with caution in hypogonadal and most probably borderline eugonadal men to manage disorders of sexual desire, erectile function and sexual satisfaction. The overall low-to-moderate evidence quality highlights the need for robust and adequately designed clinical trials.
-
It’s Day Zero and I’m (90%) POIS-free.
Why?
• Extra testosterone
• Aleve & rest
• Very stressful but very successful stage performance last night
• [Exra Benadryl for conking out daytime] <<<[from earlier posts]
It was the 3rd item that pushed me over the edge. (Positive edge :) )
For those of you following my crazy routine at POIS onset, I stopped the extra TRT, Benadryl & Aleve. Why? Too darn groggy. I now just take short naps. End result is a little more POIS - - but at least I’m a little more “human”.
-
It’s Day Zero and I’m (90%) POIS-free.
We can hardly call it 90% when groggy, loopy and “out of it” from too much sleep and drugs!
Therefore, I’m sticking to the much simpler solution (what I said directly above this post).
-
I lied. :)
I went back to extra TRT & Benadryl & Aleve today, Day Zero.
-
And extra naps :)
-
It’s Day Zero and I’m (90%) POIS-free.
We can hardly call it 90% when groggy, loopy and “out of it” from too much sleep and drugs!
Therefore, I’m sticking to the much simpler solution (what I said directly above this post).
This time around I once again chose the groggy-loopy-out-of-it existence.
I prefer that to even MILD POIS symptoms!
Best wishes to all,
Demo
-
Today is Day 3 (POIS starts for me on “Day Zero”) and I’m POIS-free but still groggy from all the extra meds & sleep.
I’m writing this to remind myself next time to *carefully* evaluate all the “extras” vs. just living with a little more POIS.
Demo
Still Experimenting!
-
Today is Day 3 (POIS starts for me on “Day Zero”) and I’m POIS-free but still groggy from all the extra meds & sleep.
I’m writing this to remind myself next time to *carefully* evaluate all the “extras” vs. just living with a little more POIS.
Demo
Still Experimenting!
Hi Demo, exactly! No matter what medicine it will have some side effects, so keeping it to a minimum or right level is always advisable. So I would advise, stay with your recommended dosage and not take extra meds. Go for the extra sleep by all means :)
-
joelawerence, thank you very much! I really appreciate that confirmation.
The extra sleep has been induced by Benadryl plus NSAIDS (Aleve), and they have side effects, too.
Plus, even if I forced extra sleep without drugs, the added grogginess is still not worth it.
So, I’m gonna try to live-with-a-little-more-POIS!
This is one reason I’m personally in favor of trying COLM_2’s non-drug Vagus Nerve Stimulation approach. After all, this POIS treatment approach was hypothesized by one of the world’s leading authorities in Orgasm Research, Dr Barry Komisaruk!
-
I think TRT can benefit SOME poisers with normal testosterone levels. This needs to be tested under controlled conditions.
From another thread:
I convinced my first urologist about POIS and he gave me [testosterone] injections.
Here’s the full story. Many years ago, desperate about my POIS, I made many contacts, sex experts on Larry King Live, etc. at that time, and I contacted a Czech sexologist, Dr Petr Weiss, by telephone, about my POIS and he seemed to know EXACTLY what was wrong with me! He said, he actually thundered over the phone :) “You need testosterone!” I thought, ‘is this guy a quack?’ (He didn’t ask about my T-levels!) but...I was desperate...so I went to my urologist, and I had normal T-levels (the lab also mis-labeled me as female!!) but I said to him (the urologist), “Look, I know all about POIS! (I had the confidence instilled in me by Dr Weiss) And I...need...testosterone!!”. So he gave me injections. At first they helped but then stopped working. A few years later (2008), this forum convinced me POIS was a hormonal issue, and a Harvard PhD. biochemist friend who pioneered some AIDS treatments, convinced me that I should see a University-based endocrinologist (he said universities are more research oriented and might be more sympathetic to the poorly-understood POIS). So I did that, had a full range of hormone tests done, plus a brain scan, and was tested with low-FREE-T, diagnosed with hypogonadism, and was convinced to use testosterone patches or cream - not injections - because they are more in sync with the way the body naturally manufactures testosterone, on a smoother 24/7 basis rather than “spiking” in and out of the system, which is what injections do, according to this endo. You can read the rest of my profile story below :)
-
Today I'm on Day 1 (without taurine, nothing). Today I make a normal work day.
And this morning, I felt tired and I asked myself "Damn, why I have low energy today ?!"
I forgot I had orgasm yesterday :)
Anyway, it's positive because I have less anxiety to do my job than in the past :)
But if not flu-like symptoms, only low energy makes me think testoterone fluctuation after ejaculation might be a starting point of all.
-
b_jim, I think that you & I learned in the early days of The Naked Scientists forum, that there is probably a precipitous drop in testosterone immediately as POIS begins.
-
yes... dispite it doesn't appear in my bloodtest : after 5 ejaculations the days and hours before, total T is normal and free T is normal.
But blood test might be non-representative of the levels in other areas of body.
-
Interesting, b_jim!
-
b_jim, maybe the TNS hypothesis of T-drop @ POIS onset is wrong?
“Testosterone is linked to your sex drive, whether you're male or female. It's known to have a more direct effect on the male sex drive. T levels naturally rise during masturbation and sex, and fall to normal levels after orgasm. ... This means that T levels don't get lower the more you masturbate.Jan 24, 2018”
https://www.healthline.com/health/masturbation-and-testosterone#research
emphasis mine - Demo
-
I forgot I had orgasm yesterday :)
I always want to forget!! ;D ;D
-
I think therapy is the judge of the role of testosterone. TRT raises testosterone levels which induces a mechanism that needs to be further investigated. What happens when testosterone levels rise and how does that relate to POIS?
-
I tried to get my testosterone manufacturer (Watson Pharma at the time) to fund a study that would address similar questions. I was unsuccessful. We’re too small a market for them.
-
I think therapy is the judge of the role of testosterone. TRT raises testosterone levels which induces a mechanism that needs to be further investigated. What happens when testosterone levels rise and how does that relate to POIS?
I think testosterone prevents you for having anxiety. I had POIS like symptoms after taking medicines that causes anxiety like Temazepam and Amitryptiline. So I am not saying POIS is a mental issue. It has to do with the brain and hormones are involved. I think I have a burn out. My POIS now is far worse then when I was relaxed. So in my case cortisol is involved. Cortisol has an interaction with testosterone.
-
I think testosterone prevents you for having anxiety. I had POIS like symptoms after taking medicines that causes anxiety like Temazepam and Amitryptiline. So I am not saying POIS is a mental issue. It has to do with the brain and hormones are involved. I think I have a burn out. My POIS now is far worse then when I was relaxed. So in my case cortisol is involved. Cortisol has an interaction with testosterone.
I mean, I did take Ketoconazole but it didn't do anything. Note that ketoco also decreases testosterone, and when I took the 800mg dose I felt lacking in energy and harder for me to concentrate.
-
I also have a very think skin. Since the last 6 months all the time. Before only when I was in POIS. After googling think skin I read that people with low testosterone have a thin skin. I might be that at POIS-patients the testosterone drops very fast after sex. Maybe that is also why we are feeling down when in POIS. Feeling a bit down also brings testosterone down. So there is a double effect. My testosterone level dropped in 3 years from 12 to 9. Maybe also because in the last 3 years I used Amitryptiline against ithching skin, but it is a SSRI. SSRI brings testosterone down.
-
My testosterone dropped to 8 now! I was unlucky because the internist is specialized in diabetes, not in hormones. So he did not want to give me TRT. He is going to talk with his collegue if I can test Androgel. Testosterone should be at least 12. And I have a lot of symptoms. If the internist does not want to give me TRT I will go to a men’s clinic.
-
For POIS?
-
First I want TRT to get rid of the hot flashes and the POIS like state I am in for 6 months. If I am better I will test it for POIS. Maybe it will help me also against POIS.
-
Thank you for keeping the priority on...POIS.
-
Thank you for keeping the priority on...POIS.
I am in a really bad shape. Never had such a bad health. My libido is zero. So I do not think about sex. I only sleep 4 hours a day. I have a lot of strange symptoms, The good thing about TRT is that it could help me to get better and help me against POIS. So double succes.
-
Thank you for continuing to put the forum-posting
emphasis on the latter (POIS)!
-
I think TRT can benefit SOME poisers with normal testosterone levels. This needs to be tested under controlled conditions. But ***please*** do not interpret this as my advice to ANYONE :)
From another thread:
I convinced my first urologist about POIS and he gave me [testosterone] injections.
Here’s the full story. Many years ago, desperate about my POIS, I made many contacts, sex experts on Larry King Live, etc. at that time, and I contacted a Czech sexologist, Dr Petr Weiss, by telephone, about my POIS and he seemed to know EXACTLY what was wrong with me! He said, he actually thundered over the phone :) “You need testosterone!” I thought, ‘is this guy a quack?’ (He didn’t ask about my T-levels!) but...I was desperate...so I went to my urologist, and I had normal T-levels (the lab also mis-labeled me as female!!) but I said to him (the urologist), “Look, I know all about POIS! (I had the confidence instilled in me by Dr Weiss) And I...need...testosterone!!”. So he gave me injections. At first they helped but then stopped working. A few years later (2008), this forum convinced me POIS was a hormonal issue, and a Harvard PhD. biochemist friend who pioneered some AIDS treatments, convinced me that I should see a University-based endocrinologist (he said universities are more research oriented and might be more sympathetic to the poorly-understood POIS). So I did that, had a full range of hormone tests done, plus a brain scan, and was tested with low-FREE-T, diagnosed with hypogonadism, and was convinced to use testosterone patches or cream - not injections - because they are more in sync with the way the body naturally manufactures testosterone, on a smoother 24/7 basis rather than “spiking” in and out of the system, which is what injections do, according to this endo. You can read the rest of my profile story below :)
-
Has anyone tried the General Nutrition Center supplement Nugenix? It is supposed to help free testosterone, which seems to be the root of the cause of my pois.
-
GNC is a good company, but you should ask a doctor.
Demo
-
I am thinking right now, that hormonal imbalance could be the root cause for POIS. And that this hormonal imbalance, as a possible consequence....may afect indirectly nervous and inmune systems....causing a lot of different symptoms and problems....and of course, not being exactly the same for each Poiser...
The reason for thinking about this is because I am strongly suspecting that what caused me the hormonal imbalance was the fact that I was taking finasteride for 2 years ... and shortly after letting it, I started to notice problems that I never had before .... I was always someone healthy and athletic ......
And also, I see that some Poisers treating themselves hormonally (with TRT) find relief ... (as is your own case Demo) ....
Of course this is just an hypothesis that I'm thinking right now.... but that I know I have to try to talk to a good endocrine!
As I am also reading that there is a Syndrome called PFS (Post Finasteride Syndrome).... That is able to cause nervous system damages and inmune systems Disorders..... That being said by an neuroendocrinologist from the University of Milano (Roberto Melcangi, PhD, Head of Neuroendocrinology, Department of Pharmacological and Biomolecular Sciences
University of Milano from Italy....).
-
Excellent post, fernab!
(I’m reading and typing this inflight, enroute to Tennessee ;D )
Best wishes to everyone,
Demo
-
GNC is a good company, but you should ask a doctor.
Demo
The doctors in our area are worthless. I know more about pois than they do. I also know what seems to work for me--foods and supplements that help testosterone production. If anyone has had any experiences with any supplements that help with this besides the usual flaxseed, fenugreek, fish oil, krill oils, etc, I'd be highly interested.
-
GNC is a good company, but you should ask a doctor.
Demo
The doctors in our area are worthless. I know more about pois than they do. I also know what seems to work for me--foods and supplements that help testosterone production. If anyone has had any experiences with any supplements that help with this besides the usual flaxseed, fenugreek, fish oil, krill oils, etc, I'd be highly interested.
Hi Samir,
You are right.
The vast majority of doctors don't have any idea about POIS.
But here in general we are not doctors also.
Even if doctors don't know anything about POIS. One can ask them to help you the way you could take something. Just to have a minimal control.
It's advisable in any case to do it like this....
Thank you for sharing this information and knowledge that could be useful for anyone willing to take it with the supervision of a doctor.
-
fernab, thanks for the excellent guidance.
-
This time around, I knocked myself out on Day Zero with forced sleep via Benadryl. (Plus I increased the dose of TRT.)
Yuk!
It “worked”, but then I had to recover from my zombie-hangover state!
And it somehow felt dangerous (e.g., plenty of nightmares) even though I followed the [maximum] dosing instructions on the box.
Hard to believe I’m still struggling after several D E C A D E S of this POIS nonsense!
But it’s Day 4, and I never dreamed of feeling this good in my pre-TRT days.
-
Does anyone have any thoughts or personal intake experience or info to share about testosterone AND niacin taken together?
Thanks!
-
I've always had nightmares when in pois.
I recently tried a supplement for men by gnc available from sams and it seems to help as much as fenugreek and fish oil. I've also started drinking a blackberry and chia seed juice drink in the morning that also seems to have a strong impact of reducing pois effects.
I think there are enough natural remedies for me at least--but I believe I will have to be practically overloading on them to have no pois effects.
I forgot to add the relationship to testosterone as it seems ALL of these have a direct and marked affect on either increasing production or absorption.
-
Samir, if the above post is not testosterone-related, would you kindly consider moving it to another thread? Maybe a new one?
Or...if you think that it is T-related, please add wording to that effect.
Thank you.
-
Samir, if the above post is not testosterone-related, would you kindly consider moving it to another thread? Maybe a new one?
Or...if you think that it is T-related, please add wording to that effect.
Thank you.
Fixed it.
-
Thanks, Samir!
-
...it seems ALL of these [supplements] have a direct and marked affect on either increasing production or absorption [of testosterone]
Samir, I’m not familiar with the role of T “absorption”. Can u elaborate a little please?
-
...it seems ALL of these [supplements] have a direct and marked affect on either increasing production or absorption [of testosterone]
Samir, I’m not familiar with the role of T “absorption”. Can u elaborate a little please?
Not T absorption, per se, but the body's response to existing T in the body. My body seems to be able to 'absorb' existing and newly produced T better. Hope this helps..
-
Yes it does.
Very interesting.
Thank you, Samir!
-
Hello comrades,
I've been wondering, dose TRT work for all the people who tried it? I've even seen some posts on FB and TRT always seems to work.
-
In theory I believe Testosterone should work for everyone. If you think about it, a) it is our sexual gland specific, Chief Hormone :)
b) just its behavioral effects are so evident, it makes you very confident, your muscles start to hulk up, you get that big energy boost, from being passive/timid you become dominant. But that said, there are repercussions to taking TRT "well after" puberty. But I also think if one can closely work with a doc and maybe take a tiny dose TRT before ejaculation and on limited basis? Thats what I am doing with natural dissected thyroid, which also raises TRT and it is working at least as a nice bandaid.
Hello comrades,
I've been wondering, dose TRT work for all the people who tried it? I've even seen some posts on FB and TRT always seems to work.
-
Thanks, swell & Nas!
-
I have been to the urologist. He said my hot flushes and other symotoms could be caused by low testosterone. He said my testosterone is a bit low. My previous blood tests were taken in the afternoon. Next week I will do a test in the morning. If it is still the same then he wants to give something to stimulate my own testosterone. Not Clomid, something else.
He said he is seeing 4 POIS-patients. I told him about the succes of TRT. He said it is interesting, but he does not think it will take the POIS-symptoms away for 100%. He is trying anti histamine. He said 1 patient was helped by it. 1 a bit and 1 not at all.
-
I told him [my urologist] about the succes of TRT. He said it is interesting, but he does not think it will take the POIS-symptoms away for 100%.
Yes, this is true in my case.
-
Demografx, do you have problems with your blood circulation in general? I'm wondering whether testicular blood flow is allright.
-
Muon, I don’t think so. Between my open heart surgery (5-way bypass) and very serious diverticulitis attack, I think my doctors would have seen something by now. I’ve been tested every which way :)
-
I'm wondering whether testicular blood flow is allright.
It is (see my comment directly above), but you caused me to think of one of my several theories for my own POIS, i.e., POIS propensity due to the physiological *trauma* caused by doctors *repairing* my undescended testicle (1) at birth.
-
Guys, focus on these ====> [Neuropsychological symptoms]
Any theory discussed that doesn't explain these symptoms is inaccurate.
I feel by knowing what causes them we can trace it back accurately to its origin and even figure out the cause of POIS.
-
I’m comfortable looking for possible causation without explaining neuropsychological symptoms.
-
It's an advise take it or leave it.
-
It's an advise take it or leave it.
OK, thanks.
-
I'm wondering whether testicular blood flow is allright.
It is (see my preceding reply to you), but you caused me to think of (1) one of my several theories for my own POIS, i.e., a POIS propensity due to the physiological *trauma* caused by doctors *repairing* my one undescended testicle at birth.
Might as well spill out (no pun intended) my other two POIS theories, developed since involvement in this forum since 2007. Please note: as the sophistication of this forum has grown significantly, I’m now much less wedded to these theories. In fact let’s just call them...notions :)
(2) semen regeneration speed - I don’t even remember what prompted this line of thinking, but I thought that POIS occurred as a result of slow semen regeneration. After ejaculation/depletion.
(3) excessive sexual frequency - in my 20’s. As one of our Forum bloggers username suggested: “too sexy for my body”! - I discussed this with one of the very knowledgeable forum members here and he dismissed the idea with “if that were true we would have *millions* and *millions* of POISers and the disorder would not be RARE.”
I have seen so many theories whizzing by since 2007 - including mine - and I am still...absolutely clueless as to what POIS is all about!
-
Can I offer my own theory?
If yes
After talking with many POIS doctors (three to be exact and one is still a medical student, I guess that's not many lol) I think I've come to a theory that POIS is mainly a neurological dysfunction specifically located in the limbic system ( this does tie in with the vagus nerve theory that you are recently very interested in). Even many of the physical manifestations like the flu like symptoms and the allergic symptoms can be due to this neurological dysfunction since many immunological behavior is connected to the CNS.
However Animus' case is a straight contradiction to this theory which may indicate that there are two types of POIS. Or I'm just outright wrong who knows.
-
Very interesting, Nas.
-
Can I offer my own theory?
If yes
After talking with many POIS doctors (three to be exact and one is still a medical student, I guess that's not many lol) I think I've come to a theory that POIS is mainly a neurological dysfunction specifically located in the limbic system ( this does tie in with the vagus nerve theory that you are recently very interested in). Even many of the physical manifestations like the flu like symptoms and the allergic symptoms can be due to this neurological dysfunction since many immunological behavior is connected to the CNS.
However Animus' case is a straight contradiction to this theory which may indicate that there are two types of POIS. Or I'm just outright wrong who knows.
Agree, but I think there is a metabolic paramter to explain the dysfunction of this area, horomone or neurotransmitter.
-
Thanks, b_jim.
-
Nas, very perceptive of u to recognize my recent re-awakening of interest in the vagus nerve theory. Just don’t ask me why ;D
Perhaps the upcoming research w/some deja vu of Hope. (Note the uppercase H :) ).
-
Nas, very perceptive of u to recognize my recent re-awakening of interest in the vagus nerve theory. Just don’t ask me why ;D
Perhaps the upcoming research w/some deja vu of Hope. (Note the uppercase H :) ).
Perhaps that's what the last research doctor was so interested in this theory.
Also agree with b_jim that there could be a neurotransmitter dysfunction.
-
Neurotransmitter dysfunction...maybe that’s why I’m on SSRI’s-for-life! If I stop taking them, I’ll cry nonstop in the elevator if someone accidentally drops a coin or a key.
-
''Our study has demonstrated that the testosterone deficiency increases cardiovascular risk via its effects on lipid metabolism and Lp-PLA2 can be used to assess this risk.''
The relationship between lipoprotein-associated phospholipase A2 with cardiovascular risk factors in testosterone deficiency
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5832369/
-
Thanks, Muon.
-
I try pomegrantate juice, supposed to boost T by 15-30%
-
I try pomegrantate juice, supposed to boost T by 15-30%
“Pomegranates
The pomegranate is an age-old symbol of fertility and sexual function, and its antioxidant levels may support heart health and stress reduction.
Also, results of a study from 2012 indicate that pomegranate may boost testosterone levels in men and women. Sixty healthy participants drank pure pomegranate juice for 14 days, and researchers tested the levels of testosterone in their saliva three times a day.
At the end of the study period, both male and female participants displayed an average 24 percent increase in salivary testosterone levels. They also experienced improvements in mood and blood pressure.”
From:
Best foods for increasing low testosterone
https://tinyurl.com/y68qqw2l
-
(https://cri.utsw.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/MNT-copy.jpg)
Best foods for
increasing low testosterone
https://tinyurl.com/y68qqw2l
-
Something weird happened. In my latest test my testosterone was 29! In the last 10 years it was always around 10. But I took those previous tests in the afternoon. The latest test I did was at noon. I know there is a difference between a test in the morning and the afternoon. But so big?
-
Something weird happened. In my latest test my testosterone was 29! In the last 10 years it was always around 10. But I took those previous tests in the afternoon. The latest test I did was at noon. I know there is a difference between a test in the morning and the afternoon. But so big?
Does anybody have an explantion for this? The tests were at the same hospital. Can there be such a big difference in testossterone at the end of the morning and the afternoon? There were only a few weeks between the two tests. And both were out of POIS.
-
Something weird happened. In my latest test my testosterone was 29! In the last 10 years it was always around 10. But I took those previous tests in the afternoon. The latest test I did was at noon. I know there is a difference between a test in the morning and the afternoon. But so big?
What is your doctor's opinion on this?
-
I saw the results of the bloodtest on the website of the hospital. The doctor will call me next week.
-
Check this review article Demo, very interesting overview especially table 2.
The Anti-Inflammatory Effects of Testosterone (https://academic.oup.com/jes/article/3/1/91/5137187)
Adipokines are increased in men with low T. These are pro-inflammatory. TRT lowers these cytokines. I wonder if leptin and/or adiponectin play a role in pois. Leptin also regulates hunger/appetite which vanishes in POIS for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adipokine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptin
-
Muon, thanks, the anti-inflammatory aspect of T is intriguing!
-
This still doesn't explain POIS. However Leptin does affect the adaptive immune system. It inhibits the proliferation of FOXP3+ Treg cells. Low values of these cells changes your immune tolerance and cause autoimmune disease. TRT--->lowers leptin--->stops inhibition of Tregs--->improves POIS (I'm making assumptions here of course). TRT also works directly on Tregs and can stimulate proliferation via androgen receptors. Leptin also crosses the BBB and is able to cause cognitive symptoms.
Leptin and Inflammation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2829991/#S7title)
-
Just slept 15 hours (much of it Benadryl-induced) trying to “shake off” POIS - - also doubled my TRT dose. Combo not 100% but it helps. Downside: shaking off the sleepiness.
Yesterday (Day Zero) was a very similar routine.
After many DECADES of POIS garbage, I’m hoping for a cure in my lifetime. Medical Research World: please hurry!!
:) :)
-
Today, POIS Day Zero, felt like a POIS “cure”. No symptoms! Not completely sure why.
This morning I took enough Benadryl to give me a fair amount of
forced daytime sleep (1st 1/2 of my POIS-onset treatment strategy).
Before nodding off I took...TOO MUCH TESTOSTERONE. (EXTRA TRT is the 2nd 1/2 of my onset treatment strategy).
I called my pharmacist and she confirmed that I shouldn’t take more than 6mg TRT. I took 8mg, plus I was only halfway through yesterday’s TRT dose cycle. My “normal” dose (out-of-POIS) is 4mg/day. Every single day of the year I’m “on” TRT.
Needless to say, I recommend overdosing TO NO ONE!! Next time I will stick to the medical guidelines. I’ve had emergency open heart surgery and a near-fatal diverticulitis attack, so I’m not taking chances.
I kept my appointments, which I normally cancel on Day Zero & Day 1.
My mental attitude this morning was better than normal.
-
Something weird happened. In my latest test my testosterone was 29! In the last 10 years it was always around 10. But I took those previous tests in the afternoon. The latest test I did was at noon. I know there is a difference between a test in the morning and the afternoon. But so big?
My urologist could not explain why my testosterone was so high. I will have a new bloodtest about a month. When it is high again then my testosterone is ok. When it is low again, then I will get a medicine to raise my testosterone. I also will have a semen and a urine test to check if I have a UTI.
-
I guess the nurse taking your blood for the test was very sexy :)
-
I guess the nurse taking your blood for the test was very sexy :)
;D ;D
- - - - - - - - -
b_jim, when my urologist’s nurse first submitted my blood for testosterone long ago, she incorrectly marked my case as “Female”!!!!
Talk about dumb, skewed results!!! ;D
Switching from urologists to endocrinology was my ticket to far better POIS help!!
-
Today, POIS Day Zero, felt like a POIS “cure”. No symptoms! Not completely sure why.
This morning I took enough Benadryl to give me a fair amount of
forced daytime sleep (1st 1/2 of my POIS-onset treatment strategy).
Before nodding off I took...TOO MUCH TESTOSTERONE. (EXTRA TRT is the 2nd 1/2 of my onset treatment strategy).
I called my pharmacist and she confirmed that I shouldn’t take more than 6mg TRT. I took 8mg, plus I was only halfway through yesterday’s TRT dose cycle. My “normal” dose (out-of-POIS) is 4mg/day. Every single day of the year I’m “on” TRT.
Needless to say, I recommend overdosing TO NO ONE!! Next time I will stick to the medical guidelines. I’ve had emergency open heart surgery and a near-fatal diverticulitis attack, so I’m not taking chances.
I kept my appointments, which I normally cancel on Day Zero & Day 1.
My mental attitude this morning was better than normal.
Same protocol today.
Effective!
-
This is a text message to me from one of our Anonymous Donors (he donates generously and continuously to POIScenter.com for POIS Research and also ongoing hosting & computer maintenance fees).
”Demo,
Has anybody ever tried Human Growth Hormone to treat POIS?”
Does anyone know? (I don’t)
I’ll pass along your reply to him.
Thank you,
Demo
-
To my knowledge, nobody CURES Pois with HGH.
Maybe some guys here made a try.
But it's problematic. HGH are used for doping. And HGH can be used for children (stunted children? not sure of this translation). But there were scandals in 80's with unsafe medications... I't's a complicated subject.
-
Thanks, b_jim! Texting your post directly above to our anonymous donor!
-
Quantum (and others who wish to reply), I’ve been thinking of stopping TRT for a while, because it increases libido (as Quantum pointed out to me privately). And I think we all know what happens with POIS frequency when libido increases ;D
My past primary care physician (I have a brand new one now) said “there is no withdrawal from TRT”.
I’ve been on TRT-for-POIS for 10 years now and I’m curious whether my body, brain, mind and emotions have ‘normalized’ to the point where no-TRT will not necessarily plunge me into the same horror as 10 years ago.
Quantum, do you see a downside? (If the horrors come back, I assume that I could simply get back on TRT).
Thank you!
-
Quantum (and others who wish to reply), I’ve been thinking of stopping TRT for a while, because it increases libido (as Quantum pointed out to me privately). And I think we all know what happens with POIS frequency when libido increases ;D
My past primary care physician (I have a brand new one now) said “there is no withdrawal from TRT”.
I’ve been on TRT-for-POIS for 10 years now and I’m curious whether my body, brain, mind and emotions have ‘normalized’ to the point where no-TRT will not necessarily plunge me into the same horror as 10 years ago.
Quantum, do you see a downside? (If the horrors come back, I assume that I could simply get back on TRT).
Thank you!
With the increased libido from testosterone can you still live an almost pois free life.
-
With the increased libido from testosterone can you still live an almost pois free life.
Not easily! That’s why I’m thinking of experimenting with stopping TRT for a while.
-
...can you still live an almost pois free life?
CP2, these days I’m not so sure about the “almost POIS free life” description. On Day Zero (POIS onset) and Day One I’m knocked out with extra TRT plus Benadryl. I feel “ok” but pretty groggy from all the extra sleep to minimize POIS symptoms. Plus lately I’ve noticed that I might feel “ok” on Day Zero and Day One, but...my personality changes. Sometimes? Hard to evaluate objectively! For example, on my last round of POIS, in early Days I had a blowout argument with one of my sons. Not sure I would’ve reacted the same way in later days, e.g., in Days 3-4+
Anyway, I no longer suffer the 4-day POIS Horror Shows that I experienced 10 years ago. Plus, I’ve “aged into” no-NE’s. A blessing!
-
Quantum (and others who wish to reply), I’ve been thinking of stopping TRT for a while, because it increases libido (as Quantum pointed out to me privately). And I think we all know what happens with POIS frequency when libido increases ;D
My past primary care physician (I have a brand new one now) said “there is no withdrawal from TRT”.
I’ve been on TRT-for-POIS for 10 years now and I’m curious whether my body, brain, mind and emotions have ‘normalized’ to the point where no-TRT will not necessarily plunge me into the same horror as 10 years ago.
Quantum, do you see a downside? (If the horrors come back, I assume that I could simply get back on TRT).
Thank you!
Hi Demo,
It would worth a try, in my opinion. Like I have said to you in private, TRT increases libido for sure, and this is no good for when we have POIS.
However, I do not agree with your MD that there is no withdrawal ( but, as you know, the opinions expressed here are not intended to replace medical advice and you will have to discuss it with a health professional). You have been taking TRT for 10 years, so you own, endogenous production of testosterone is shut down for years. If you stop at once, it will not revive instantly, and we need at least some testosterone in our body. A progressive tapering of the dose is much more preferable, and you should discuss this with your specialist or primary care physician.
See https://www.nexelmedical.com/testosterone-therapy/can-you-stop-testosterone-replacement-therapy/ , it is a medical clinic suggesting progressive tapering to avoid emotional and physical sympoms.
The withdrawal for TRT is not as important as what someone may get from drigs acting on the central nervous system, like antidepressant, but they are to be considered as a possibility ( you will for sure read some horror stories on the net, but that's not the norm....).
Note that if someone stops could turkey, the possible emotional and physical symptoms can take some time to appear, when all T will have been eliminated from the body ( there is a delay).
A very slow tapering on several weeks or a few months would greatly help to manage any "surprise".
-
The withdrawal for TRT is not as important as what someone may get from drugs acting on the central nervous system, like antidepressant, but they are to be considered as a possibility ( you will for sure read some horror stories on the net, but that's not the norm....).
This reminds me: I’m on antidepressant Lexapro, so that might mitigate withdrawal symptoms.
ps - my past primary care physician comment about “no-withdrawal” was made - hastily - in a busy hallway while he was getting ready for his next patient. So there’s easily room for misunderstanding - - which makes me appreciate your considered reply even more. The same doctor also made a serious near-fatal misdiagnosis of another condition I had. He admitted the error. I didn’t sue, I just switched MD’s. World-famous doctor! But that doesn’t always guarantee great care! Everyone makes mistakes.
-
Quantum, T H A N K Y O U very much!
This forum truly changed dramatically for the best under your moderation, administration and leadership!
My heartfelt congratulations,
Demo
-
Quantum (and others who wish to reply), I’ve been thinking of stopping TRT for a while, because it increases libido (as Quantum pointed out to me privately). And I think we all know what happens with POIS frequency when libido increases ;D
My past primary care physician (I have a brand new one now) said “there is no withdrawal from TRT”.
I’ve been on TRT-for-POIS for 10 years now and I’m curious whether my body, brain, mind and emotions have ‘normalized’ to the point where no-TRT will not necessarily plunge me into the same horror as 10 years ago.
Quantum, do you see a downside? (If the horrors come back, I assume that I could simply get back on TRT).
Thank you!
Hi Demo,
It would worth a try, in my opinion. Like I have said to you in private, TRT increases libido for sure, and this is no good for when we have POIS.
However, I do not agree with your MD that there is no withdrawal ( but, as you know, the opinions expressed here are not intended to replace medical advice and you will have to discuss it with a health professional). You have been taking TRT for 10 years, so you own, endogenous production of testosterone is shut down for years. If you stop at once, it will not revive instantly, and we need at least some testosterone in our body. A progressive tapering of the dose is much more preferable, and you should discuss this with your specialist or primary care physician.
See https://www.nexelmedical.com/testosterone-therapy/can-you-stop-testosterone-replacement-therapy/ , it is a medical clinic suggesting progressive tapering to avoid emotional and physical sympoms.
The withdrawal for TRT is not as important as what someone may get from drigs acting on the central nervous system, like antidepressant, but they are to be considered as a possibility ( you will for sure read some horror stories on the net, but that's not the norm....).
Note that if someone stops could turkey, the possible emotional and physical symptoms can take some time to appear, when all T will have been eliminated from the body ( there is a delay).
A very slow tapering on several weeks or a few months would greatly help to manage any "surprise".
It will be a good time to try other remedies to see what works for you.
-
CP2, excellent idea!
-
Quantum, T H A N K Y O U very much!
This forum truly changed dramatically for the best under your moderation, administration and leadership!
My heartfelt congratulations,
Demo
Thank you , Demo !
-
Something weird happened. In my latest test my testosterone was 29! In the last 10 years it was always around 10. But I took those previous tests in the afternoon. The latest test I did was at noon. I know there is a difference between a test in the morning and the afternoon. But so big?
I did a new blood test. My testosterone was 15. 50% less than the last time. But within the normal range of my hospital: 10-30. I will go next month to my urologist to talk about the result.
-
Day Zero. No POIS today!
;D I must be dreaming ;D
-
It seems testosterone stimulates Gaba transmission :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14769394
-
It seems testosterone stimulates Gaba transmission :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14769394
Wait so Testosterone increases GABA neurotransmittion?
-
(http://www.canee.net/files/images/petr%20weiss.preview.JPG)
Dr. Petr Weiss, Czech Republic sexologist. I phoned him around 2008, told him I was in total agony & desperation with POIS, could he recommend anything? He said, “You need testosterone!”. I was *very* skeptical...over the phone? But after seeing several local urologists and an endocrinologist, I thought, “What do I have to lose?” It hasn’t been a total cure, but it’s helped. A lot.
My treatment story. No science! :)
-
Maybe that's someone to add to the doctor's list Demo.
-
Yes!
-
Maybe that's someone to add to the doctor's list Demo.
Prof. Dr. Petr Weiss, Ph. D.
petr.weiss@vfn.cz
Czech Republic
-
Added another country to the list nice one Demo.
-
:)
-
It seems testosterone stimulates Gaba transmission :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14769394
Intersecting simple theory: There is an excessive release of GABA after ejaculation causing shutdown of many neurotransmitters rather than simple relaxation.
-
Apparently testosterone exerts an inhibitory effect on mast cells, thus TRT could act as a mast cell stabilizer. See table 1 in 'The neuroendocrinology of mast cells' (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/i4ploderhgty86o/AAABk_eHd89Af66YjyGLZa7Ta?dl=0)
-
Interesting.
-
Didn't we have a few poisers who were using Progesterone with succes? Take a look at the table again, it's capable of exerting an inhibitory effect on mast cells as well.
-
Quantum (and others who wish to reply), I’ve been thinking of stopping TRT for a while, because it increases libido (as Quantum pointed out to me privately). And I think we all know what happens with POIS frequency when libido increases ;D
My past primary care physician (I have a brand new one now) said “there is no withdrawal from TRT”.
I’ve been on TRT-for-POIS for 10 years now and I’m curious whether my body, brain, mind and emotions have ‘normalized’ to the point where no-TRT will not necessarily plunge me into the same horror as 10 years ago.
Quantum, do you see a downside? (If the horrors come back, I assume that I could simply get back on TRT).
Thank you!
Hi Demo,
It would worth a try, in my opinion. Like I have said to you in private, TRT increases libido for sure, and this is no good for when we have POIS.
However, I do not agree with your MD that there is no withdrawal ( but, as you know, the opinions expressed here are not intended to replace medical advice and you will have to discuss it with a health professional). You have been taking TRT for 10 years, so you own, endogenous production of testosterone is shut down for years. If you stop at once, it will not revive instantly, and we need at least some testosterone in our body. A progressive tapering of the dose is much more preferable, and you should discuss this with your specialist or primary care physician.
See https://www.nexelmedical.com/testosterone-therapy/can-you-stop-testosterone-replacement-therapy/ , it is a medical clinic suggesting progressive tapering to avoid emotional and physical sympoms.
The withdrawal for TRT is not as important as what someone may get from drigs acting on the central nervous system, like antidepressant, but they are to be considered as a possibility ( you will for sure read some horror stories on the net, but that's not the norm....).
Note that if someone stops could turkey, the possible emotional and physical symptoms can take some time to appear, when all T will have been eliminated from the body ( there is a delay).
A very slow tapering on several weeks or a few months would greatly help to manage any "surprise".
Quantum, I’ve reduced my TRT to one patch (2mg Androderm) per night. I feel better now! (Libido is more under control). Thanks!
-
Something weird happened. In my latest test my testosterone was 29! In the last 10 years it was always around 10. But I took those previous tests in the afternoon. The latest test I did was at noon. I know there is a difference between a test in the morning and the afternoon. But so big?
I did a new blood test. My testosterone was 15. 50% less than the last time. But within the normal range of my hospital: 10-30. I will go next month to my urologist to talk about the result.
My urologist said that my testosterone is ok. He said that sometimes it can be lower because of a flu or another disease. He does jot know if POIS brings testosterone down, but it could. About a few months I will check my testosterone again to see if it is still ok. Otherwise I will go back to the urologist.
-
Something weird happened. In my latest test my testosterone was 29! In the last 10 years it was always around 10. But I took those previous tests in the afternoon. The latest test I did was at noon. I know there is a difference between a test in the morning and the afternoon. But so big?
I did a new blood test. My testosterone was 15. 50% less than the last time. But within the normal range of my hospital: 10-30. I will go next month to my urologist to talk about the result.
My urologist said that my testosterone is ok. He said that sometimes it can be lower because of a flu or another disease. He does jot know if POIS brings testosterone down, but it could. About a few months I will check my testosterone again to see if it is still ok. Otherwise I will go back to the urologist.
how much red meat do you consume. It makes a big difference.
-
All 3 urologists I consulted were absolutely clueless about POIS.
-
Something weird happened. In my latest test my testosterone was 29! In the last 10 years it was always around 10. But I took those previous tests in the afternoon. The latest test I did was at noon. I know there is a difference between a test in the morning and the afternoon. But so big?
I did a new blood test. My testosterone was 15. 50% less than the last time. But within the normal range of my hospital: 10-30. I will go next month to my urologist to talk about the result.
My urologist said that my testosterone is ok. He said that sometimes it can be lower because of a flu or another disease. He does jot know if POIS brings testosterone down, but it could. About a few months I will check my testosterone again to see if it is still ok. Otherwise I will go back to the urologist.
how much red meat do you consume. It makes a big difference.
Not a lot. I eat it maybe once a week.
-
All 3 urologists I consulted were absolutely clueless about POIS.
I went to this urologist because of the POiS like symptoms out of POiS. Because my testosterone is low for a few years. And because he was the doctor who sended me to prof. Waldinger 9 years ago. He knew him because of the seminars he visited.
-
Vandemolen, I hope you will be happy working with him.
-
Demo so TRT does not stop POIS even if you take a patch right before sex?
-
It doesn’t work like that. It’s a *longterm* buildup of TRT in the system that works. Protocol is 365 days/year.
-
It doesn’t work like that. It’s a *longterm* buildup of TRT in the system that works. Protocol is 365 days/year.
But you still suffer from POIS after orgasm? Or does it go away in time?
-
Demo so TRT does not stop POIS...
I never said it stopped POIS.
-
Day Zero. No POIS today!
;D I must be dreaming ;D
Nas, if you’re referring to this, I spoke too soon. It simply turned out to be a lighter episode.
-
So TRT does not stop POIS but it quickens the time to heal correct?
-
• Yes, it cuts my recovery time in half
• symptoms are far less devastating
• works best on physical symptoms, cognitive not as much
-
Pre-TRT, my worst physical symptom was extreme exhaustion.
-
Have you checked your vitamin D level Demo?
-
No. I’ll ask on my next blood test
-
My 10 fingertips dry up, become numb in POIS. Drives me berserk but I don’t know why! Am I the only one?
-
Interesting TRT chat started by Muon’s new POIS article posting:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3127.msg31950#msg31950
-
Cross-posted from Muon’s POIS Paper Archive thread:
''Treatment was initiated with hCG 1500IU injected subcutaneously three times per week. At six-week follow-up his symptoms had resolved completely, and he had discontinued use of alprazolam. He ejaculated more frequently, and experienced no weakness, anxiety, brain fog, or malaise afterwards. He noted improved mood, overall energy, and libido. Blood tests showed robust levels of total testosterone at 952 ng/dl and free T (direct) at 2.8 ng/dl. LH and FSH were below threshold limits. He reported this was the first time since he was 16y that he could experience orgasm without negative physical or emotional consequences afterwards. At six months of follow-up he continued hCG treatment, was happy, and masturbated several times per month. He still described mild POIS symptoms immediately following orgasm, but these resolved within 12 h and were not bothersome. Importantly, he no longer experienced dread with anticipated sexual activity.''
At six-week follow up his symptoms had resolved completely.
At six months of follow up he described mild POIS symptoms.
Did he stop doing hCG injections after the six-week follow up and continued after the 6-month follow up or did he use it all the time during these 6 months?
At age 25, I worry about his fertility! After TRT, my sperm count went to 0.00, presumably because of my TRT.
I’m not familiar with hCG, if it has the same downside risk.
I already had grown adult children. But this guy has his whole life ahead of him!
-
They mentioned in the paper that they decided to use hCG instead of TRT because the patient wished to keep his fertility and keep his testicular size.
Thanks, Nas, I’d like to keep the fertility warning up above as a reminder - - to young POISers reading this Testosterone thread - - about the risk associated with TRT.
-
Did you ever use SSRI's demo? If so how do you respond to them?
-
I respond TOO well! But I’m afraid I’m hooked for life: every time I try to quit I end up crying in the elevator ;D
My current SSRI: Lexapro
-
Started with Prozac in 1989. Changed my life. Rather than a huge positive effect, SSRI’s simply enable me to function without occasionally falling into a “deep, dark pit” of depression, which was often the case prior to 1989.
-
That's what I thought. I think you could have increased your brain BDNF. Waldinger has written something about it here:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2983.msg31533#msg31533
-
SSRI's personally did very little. Other than make you artificially happy. I was still brain foggy, socially dysfunctional, cognitively impaired, zero motivation, etc.
-
That's what I thought.
Why?
-
SSRI's personally did very little. Other than make you artificially happy. I was still brain foggy, socially dysfunctional, cognitively impaired, zero motivation, etc.
Same here. Main benefit to me was helping my out-of-POIS lows.
-
SSRI's personally did very little. Other than make you artificially happy. I was still brain foggy, socially dysfunctional, cognitively impaired, zero motivation, etc.
Same here. Main benefit to me was helping my out-of-POIS lows.
Yeah, just so much psychological damage. Even when I'll fix my POIS (I haven't yet) I'll still have to deal with all the trauma I accumulated over the years under POIS.
-
So demo you mentioned that you had a friend who used TRT and it didn't work for him for POIS?
-
Correct.
-
So it doesn't work for everyone, interesting. Well I talked to the Egyptian doctor and he recommended 25mg Mesterolone. He said I should try testosterone before hCG, because he thinks testosterone is safer. He did say that as long as I don't pass the 3 months mark I'm good on fertility issues so we'll see.
-
Personally, I would get a 2nd opinion on the 3-months.
-
Personally, I would get a 2nd opinion on the 3-months.
Why?
-
Well he didn't describe it as a safety net, he prescribed it to me for two week then I'll report back. So perhaps it's a more or less situation. Plus Mesterolone mechanism of action is different than Testosterone.
-
I removed my comment. I know nothing about Mesterolome.
-
Mesterolone is not considered an androgen replacement therapy drug. Rather it's an agonist to the androgen receptor. It's interesting we'll see what it does.
-
I think we need more people to try T3 as Swell said it cures his POIS by 100% maybe its a better option than testosterone
-
He also said it fixes the speech and cognitve problems which is something trt doesn't seem to do
-
Is there anyone who uses testosterone who reports a 100% recovery?
-
I'm dumping this link here as well.
Low Testosterone and ANS: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg32116#msg32116
-
You guys see this new article?: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221444201930453X#bib1
-
You guys see this new article?: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221444201930453X#bib1
Yes we did post about it on this forum. I encourage people to talk to an endocrinologist about this to further support this paper.
-
You guys see this new article?: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221444201930453X#bib1
Read this thread to keep up to date with articles or to post new ones in the comments:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3127.0
-
So it doesn't work for everyone, interesting. Well I talked to the Egyptian doctor and he recommended 25mg Mesterolone. He said I should try testosterone before hCG, because he thinks testosterone is safer. He did say that as long as I don't pass the 3 months mark I'm good on fertility issues so we'll see.
I asked my urologist. I also thought it would be ok to use TRT for a few weeks and if you stop you will produce testosterone again. But my urologist said it will not recover. Once you start TRT there is no way back. At least that is what my urologist said. And he is seeing some POIS patients.
-
I’ve experimented a lot with Benadryl to force sleep in early POIS.
It works, but this time I *didn’t* force any daytime sleep.
I now think it’s better to go through a little POIS than to sleep through much of it and then worry about the aftermath, i.e., shaking off significant grogginess.
-
This time, I experienced only 1 day of very mild symptoms (4 horrible days pre-TRT, then usually <2 mild days post-TRT). I attribute that to “extra” TRT plus forced extra sleep via Benadryl. Not recommending to anyone.
-
Has TRT helped anyones depression and anxiety related to POIS?
-
brainfogfun, TRT at first had a mood-lifting effect. Hard to tell the standalone TRT effect these days because I’m also on an SSRI (Lexapro).
-
After 10 years of somewhat successfully treating my POIS, and 40+ years of living with this dreadful condition, I’m now settled in to this protocol - unless new research convinces me to try something else.
• TRT (testosterone patches) daily, 365 days/year, 2-4mg each evening
• TRT triple dose on “Day Zero” - - the day of POIS onset
• Benadryl as needed on “Day Zero” - - which forces “extra” sleep (and more rapid recovery)
Result?
• 1 day - or less- of moderate POIS
vs.
• 4 days of severe POIS for most of my life
-
• TRT triple dose (=8mg Androderm this morning) on “Day Zero” - - the day of POIS onset
• Benadryl (=50mg this morning) as needed on “Day Zero” - - which forces “extra” sleep (and more rapid recovery)
Today: after 10 years’ steady POIS protocol, it’s about
80% successful...
...for me.
I’m not recommending this to anyone else. We’re all different.
-
Benadryl on it's own is quite effective against POIS. How much effect do you chalk up to the testosterone replacement therapy? I had my total testosterone checked recently and it was normal-high.
-
TRT is the single major ingredient in my therapy.
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
This is what my TRT POIS therapy looks like. Each and every evening (365 days/year) I place 2mg patches - -
that you see in the photo above - - on my upper arms and/or thighs. When POIS attacks me, I increase the dosage.
For the 10 years I’ve been doing this, it’s been with a doctor’s prescription and supervision, either an endocrinologist or primary care physician.
Be careful, I lost my sperm count, probably because of my POIS therapy.
-
I am 20 years old.I am facing pois from 4 years.My testosterone levels (total t) are 267ng/dl.I have not money to visit professional doctors.Someone plz guide me thoroughly. Are my testosterone levels normal? If not then what should I do???
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
This is what my TRT POIS therapy looks like. Each and every evening (365 days/year) I place 2mg patches - -
that you see in the photo above - - on my upper arms and/or thighs. When POIS attacks me, I increase the dosage.
For the 10 years I’ve been doing this, it’s been with a doctor’s prescription and supervision, either an endocrinologist or primary care physician.
Be careful, I lost my sperm count, probably because of my POIS therapy.
Doesn't hcg continue sperm production for those taking exogenous T?
-
Doesn't hcg continue sperm production for those taking exogenous T?
Perhaps. Too late for me, though :)
-
Hey Demografx! Did you ever used accutane(isotretinoin) in your life???
-
No, never used.
Abbasmuzaffar, welcome to the forum!
-
Demografx: What were your testosterone levels before starting trt( testosterone replacement therapy)???
-
Abbasmuzaffar, I started TRT for POIS 10 years ago, but I did not keep records. Both Total T and Free T were significantly low.
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
This is what my TRT POIS therapy looks like. Each and every evening (365 days/year) I place 2mg patches - -
that you see in the photo above - - on my upper arms and/or thighs. When POIS attacks me, I increase the dosage.
For the 10 years I’ve been doing this, it’s been with a doctor’s prescription and supervision, either an endocrinologist or primary care physician.
Be careful, I lost my sperm count, probably because of my POIS therapy.
My “Day Zero of POIS” (when symptom onset begins) started this morning (April 7, 2020) at 3:30 AM. I immediately applied 4 TRT patches (up to 4X my usual dose), took 2 Benadryl (50mg) and slept/rested till 6pm tonight! Never slept/rested that long. Ever!
It’s now 10:19 PM.
No POIS symptoms.
Just groggy :)
Sleep/rest is a POWERFUL POIS antidote for me!
-
Cross-posted from “Successful hCG treatment for POIS?”
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3267.msg33983#msg33983
Correspondence between “Pyropeach” (very early forum Thought Leader) & me.
Today
Hi Demo,
Just saw the latest published paper entitled: Successful treatment of POIS with human chronic gonadotropin. Demo, this is beyond amazing. The description of the symptoms are nearly an exact match to my own. I’ve recently been taking Maca supplements that claim to boost T levels, and it has been working moderately well for the past few months. Also discovered there is a small cyst on my pituitary gland, which produces hCG mentioned in the paper. Sorry for rambling, I’m just excited that this may really be the cure.
Is there anyway I could try this treatment? How did you convince your doctor to administer T?
Hope you’re well with all the corona going around.
-Pyro
Btw - how are things at the old forum?
[To Pyropeach]
Great to hear from you!
My T was low, so no prob qualifying for TRT!
Can I post your letter + my reply?
ps - “old forum” meaning the current one POISCenter.com or the old/old one at naked science forum?
Demo,
My last blood test showed my T level as “normal”, so the doctors here may not give me the treatment, will have to think more how to approach this.
Yes, by all means! You got my 100% approval to post our correspondence. I might also mention that bodybuilding has also had a positive affect on the symptoms (I gained 40 lbs in muscle); pumping iron and lots of rare steak increases T, needless to say.
Ah yes, I mean the current one at POISCenter…time has just flown by since the naked science forum days…
-Pyro
==========
From February 14, 2020
I’m near but not that near, LA is a good 7 hour drive for me. Will definitely try to get more details about the [POIS Research] study.
Overall this is great news :)
-Pyro
-
Cross-posted from https://tinyurl.com/y7slls8c
Can’t vouch for this service (never tried it & no one recommended them to me), but sounds intriguing!
Their advertising claim: “Chat with on-call Endocrinologists in minutes, 24/7...
Unlimited chats – $5 one-week trial membership. Cancel anytime”
https://tinyurl.com/ybyo95ud
-
If you’ve been following my recent POIS treatment strategy of “extra” TRT & Benadryl at POIS onset...today (Day Zero) I took one-fourth the dose of Benadryl - - 12.5mg (but still extra TRT - 8mg Androderm), I slept far less, and feel much better. So far today:
no mild POIS symptoms and far less grogginess.
-
At POIS onset, I went back to 2 Benadryl this time (4x my usual dose!). Plus 4 TRT (also 4x my normal dose!) I slept a lot. No POIS. But groggy as hell from the Benadryl and “oversleeping”.
Any suggestions?
-
At POIS onset, I went back to 2 Benadryl this time (4x my usual dose!). Plus 4 TRT (also 4x my normal dose!) I slept a lot. No POIS. But groggy as hell from the Benadryl and “oversleeping”.
Any suggestions?
Have you tried a non drowsy anthihistamine.
They say zyrtec is non drowsy, but it makes me sleep much longer but its grogginess effects not as bad as benadryl.
-
Thanks, CP2, sounds promising!
Will try it!
-
After a lifetime (many decades) of POIS struggle, I think I finally landed a “90%+ cure” formula.
For myself. No idea if/how this will work for other POISers.
• abstinence (19 days this time)
• Heavy TRT @ POIS onset (8mg Androderm this time vs. 2mg to 4mg/out-of-POIS)
• Heavy Benadryl @ POIS onset (100mg [50am/50pm] this time vs. 12.5mg/out-of-POIS)
• “Extra” sleep (Benadryl-induced) @ POIS onset to “ride out” early symptom onset
-
Whoops! Day 1: slightly delayed reaction. Took more Benadryl & more TRT. Yesterday (Day Zero) was an unusually POIS-free/good day. 90%+ is now less ;D ;D
-
That's great news Demo!! Well done on finding a winning formula.
-
Thank you, hurray.
-
At POIS onset, I went back to 2 Benadryl this time (4x my usual dose!). Plus 4 TRT (also 4x my normal dose!) I slept a lot. No POIS. But groggy as hell from the Benadryl and “oversleeping”.
Any suggestions?
Have you tried a non drowsy anthihistamine.
They say zyrtec is non drowsy, but it makes me sleep much longer but its grogginess effects not as bad as benadryl.
Yes! I might be “POIS-cured” but I’m groggy as hell! CP2, if Zyrtec is non-drowsy then I might not sleep? “Extra” sleep is important to my protocol.
-
At POIS onset, I went back to 2 Benadryl this time (4x my usual dose!). Plus 4 TRT (also 4x my normal dose!) I slept a lot. No POIS. But groggy as hell from the Benadryl and “oversleeping”.
Any suggestions?
Have you tried a non drowsy anthihistamine.
They say zyrtec is non drowsy, but it makes me sleep much longer but its grogginess effects not as bad as benadryl.
Yes! I might be “POIS-cured” but I’m groggy as hell! CP2, if Zyrtec is non-drowsy then I might not sleep? “Extra” sleep is important to my protocol.
You can try the experiment about the time you normally go to sleep. I know zyrtec makes my normal sleep longer and more intense(dreams are more vivid). One of the common side effects of Zyrtec is drowsiness.
There is also melatonin , it doesn't make me sleep as much benadryl, the grogginess feeling is way less.
Have you experimented to see if sleep or the antihistamine effect of benadryl that is actually helping you.
-
Thanks, CP2!
It’s the sleep that helps the most. Even after a good night’s sleep, if POIS onset begins, it makes me need to sleep even MORE to have a curative effect. I don’t believe the antihistamine component helps at all!
-
Thanks, CP2!
It’s the sleep that helps the most. Even after a good night’s sleep, if POIS onset begins, it makes me need to sleep even MORE to have a curative effect. I don’t believe the antihistamine component helps at all!
Yesterday was POIS Day Zero (symptom onset), same extra-TRT-and-Benadryl protocol. I was a bit groggy, but POIS-symptom-free.
Today, I feel fine
-
Here's a short theory of POIS.
1) A genetic defect in a methylation gene causes an inefficient homocysteine to methionine cycle.
2) Depending on the level of inefficiency, the sufferer will be fine until they encounter puberty or become older and suffer from some illness which taxes the immune system.
3) Up until the point of the first POIS O the sufferer may feel a bit tired or less active than usual but the first POIS O will come as a shock as it's the first time the body has to dispose of a substantial amount of histamine that it's impaired methylation simply cannot handle.
4) Once POIS starts, the sufferer has high levels of histamine that are not being effectively deactivated (increasing their libido and frequency of ejaculation) and impairments in the production of other neurotransmitters (making them slow down and feel depressed).
5) the High-histamine state requires the body to produce more cortisol to control inflammation. The sufferer has allergies etc. and wonders what the problem is but over time they're body becomes weaker.
6) The cortisol produced in (5) steals the raw ingredients for other hormones (including testosterone), producing symptoms of hypogonadism despite no obvious testicular malfunction or adrenal tumour. It's possible that persistent adrenal fatigue may increase the natural wear + tear on the cells of the pituitary gland which may lead to tumours but that's a side issue.
7) The body also produces adrenaline to cope with high levels of cortisol. Again, this contributes to mental and physical burnout. The POIS sufferer now has chronic adrenal fatigue and may feel "wiped out", being unable to deal with even normal stresses in every day life.
8) Both the reduced methylation and cortisol steal in the previous points, reduces the production of neurotransmitters. The brain also has too high a histamine load and a negative feedback loop is created such that the brain runs in a suboptimal state with too high levels of histamine and too low levels of serotonin. This leads to persistent feelings of anxiety, even when the sufferer believes they are not in POIS. Indeed, over time it becomes more difficult for the POIS sufferer to figure out when they are in in POIS or out of it. The state of weakness, fatigue and confusion becomes more persistent.
9 ) The POIS sufferer never recovers their former state of wellbeing with adequate histamine clearance and adequate methylation of neurotransmitters UNLESS they manage to kick start their methylation cycle.
Thanks to cheap DNA testing we can actually find out if we have polymorphisms (basically mutations) of our methylation genes. My guess is that we all have methylation issues. They may not be the same issue but they're similar enough to produce a major problem when we process histamine. The inability to clear histamine quickly and the high levels we experience daily would lead to the symptoms of POIS but they would be a result of other issues.
Hi Kurtosis,
What is the final solution to this? Are you taking any supplement stack? or went for TRT?
Also do any of you feel very vague or sometimes little more pain in the groin or in scrotch.?
-
Thanks, CP2!
It’s the sleep that helps the most. Even after a good night’s sleep, if POIS onset begins, it makes me need to sleep even MORE to have a curative effect. I don’t believe the antihistamine component helps at all!
Yesterday was POIS Day Zero (symptom onset), same extra-TRT-and-Benadryl protocol. I was a bit groggy, but POIS-symptom-free.
Today, I feel fine
Update: it still takes a few days to feel completely recovered. Probably from Benadryl’s grogginess-inducing protocol and “hyper” feeling from extra TRT. The latter is not ideal because of an underlying heart condition (open heart 5-way bypass 10 yrs ago).
-
I think I’ve gone as far as possible with my 10-year old POIS treatment protocol.
Result: about 70-85% effective
Here it is:
• Abstinence (2-3 weeks)
• TRT (double to triple dose @ POIS onset) PLUS moderate daily dose 365 days/year
• Benadryl (high doses for “extra” sleep, including daytime) @ POIS onset plus 1st 1-2 days
Until more formal POIS Research is conducted (2020-2021!) this is as far as I will go with experimentation.
-
I think I’ve gone as far as possible with my 10-year old POIS treatment protocol.
Result: about 70-85% effective
Here it is:
• Abstinence (2-3 weeks)
• TRT (double to triple dose @ POIS onset) PLUS moderate daily dose 365 days/year
• Benadryl (high doses for “extra” sleep, including daytime) @ POIS onset plus 1st 1-2 days
Until more formal POIS Research is conducted (2020-2021!) this is as far as I will go with experimentation.
I'm glad to see TRT still works for you, I know it has been part of your anti-POIS arsenal for many years :) And it's good that your experimentation led you to a good solution.
We can theorise all we want about why POIS happens, but most of the people on this forum who have found a solution did so through experimentation.
-
We can theorise all we want about why POIS happens, but most of the people on this forum who have found a solution did so through experimentation.
Excellent & accurate point, hurray!
-
13 years ago, at the beginning of the POIS forums, I formulated a POIS theory: semen re-generation speed is at the heart of [my] POIS. The slower regeneration occurs, the more POIS I have.
Over the years, I abandoned that theory when so many more sophisticated theories were proposed here by forum members at these forums (including POISCenter’s predecessor, Naked Science Forum).
My recent experience with high dose TRT for several days leading to increased virility (and 10 yrs of POIS treatment success) is just now making me think of re-considering, i.e., maybe it wasn’t such a dumb idea after all :)
-
It was never a bad idea :)
-
13 years ago, at the beginning of the POIS forums, I formulated a POIS theory: semen re-generation speed is at the heart of [my] POIS. The slower regeneration occurs, the more POIS I have.
Over the years, I abandoned that theory when so many more sophisticated theories were proposed here by forum members at these forums (including POISCenter’s predecessor, Naked Science Forum).
My recent experience with high dose TRT for several days leading to increased virility (and 10 yrs of POIS treatment success) is just now making me think of re-considering, i.e., maybe it wasn’t such a dumb idea after all :)
That sounds like a good theory to me, particularly as it is based upon your own experience. The "more sophisticated theories" remain unproven. There is still a great deal we do not know about POIS :)
-
Thank you,
b_jim!
and
hurray!
-
A final - - and important - - point to my theory above: testosterone drops after ejaculation. I feel that I’m countering that natural drop with a
• higher-than-average dose of external testosterone in the earliest day(s) of POIS.
• This is *medical experimentation* on my part. Only. I am NOT recommending this to anyone else.
Best wishes,
Demo
-
New paper: Case of post?orgasmic illness syndrome associated with hypogonadism (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/iju5.12184)
From Muon’s link above:
“...after administering testosterone enanthate once or twice a month, his general fatigue significantly improved, and he could ejaculate every day.”
Thanks, Muon, sent paper to POIS Research Team.
-
My POIS doctor it is weird that my testosterone went from 10 to 30 and then back to 15. The urologist said it is ok and sended me away. My POIS doctor also thinks it is strange that two immunologists I visited said it is ok that my IgM was too low. He talked about seeing a doctor in Belgium or Germany.
-
Has anyone tried TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) for at least 4 - 6 weeks and it DIDN’T work?
I’m only interested if you tried:
• patches
or
• gel
(I don’t believe in injections - - they spike in and out of the system too quickly to be uniformly long-lasting for POIS. Patches/gel more closely mimic the body’s natural rhythm of testosterone absorption and implementation).
THANK YOU!
Demo
This is *not* my endorsement for anyone to try TRT. In my case, I lost all fertility, my sperm count dropped to 0.00!
Is the fertility issue reversible, though?
-
Mushnikk, it might be. Check in with an endocrinologist.
-
Is the fertility issue reversible, though?
Mushnikk, I’ve never used them, just found it by Googling,
“Chat with an endocrinologist”. Might be worth it for around $5.00??
They LOOK legit (New York University endocrinologist)
https://tinyurl.com/y8tf597n
But I would then take the results you get to a DOCTOR YOU KNOW. I would never take an online chat as FINAL MEDICAL DIRECTION.
-
Is the fertility issue reversible, though?
Mushnikk, I’ve never used them, just found it by Googling,
“Chat with an endocrinologist”. Might be worth it for around $5.00??
They LOOK legit (New York University endocrinologist)
https://tinyurl.com/y8tf597n
But I would then take the results you get to a DOCTOR YOU KNOW. I would never take an online chat as FINAL MEDICAL DIRECTION.
Thank you for the cautious words!
-
Welcome, Mushnikk.
If you ever decide to try it, would love to know your experience!
-
Has anyone tried TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) for at least 4 - 6 weeks and it DIDN’T work?
I’m only interested if you tried:
• patches
or
• gel
(I don’t believe in injections - - they spike in and out of the system too quickly to be uniformly long-lasting for POIS. Patches/gel more closely mimic the body’s natural rhythm of testosterone absorption and implementation).
THANK YOU!
Demo
This is *not* my endorsement for anyone to try TRT. In my case, I lost all fertility, my sperm count dropped to 0.00!
-
Could be total coincidence, but being deep in POIS fatigue (no energy to get up or move, just want to sit or lie on the couch) I take Pine Pollen.. some just swallowing, some sublingual.
(I got them as a sample when ordering an unrelated other supplement).
after 30-60 minutes later, I feel I can walk again effortlessly, I have energy to "get stuff done". Also no brain fog, just vision a bit blurry.
"Testosterone has been found in the pollen of the Scots pine (Pinus sylvestris). It?s estimated that 10 grams of this pollen contains 0.8 micrograms of testosterone.
Because of this, pine pollen is often used to boost testosterone levels. However, there haven?t been any studies into the effectiveness of pine pollen in increasing testosterone."
https://www.healthline.com/health/pine-pollen
Unfortunately I don't know how much I took. Also it could be any other property/ingredient of those pollen.
-
Muon, do you see (TRT) Testosterone therapy as compatible with MCAS theory?
-
Muon, do you see (TRT) Testosterone therapy as compatible with MCAS theory?
Yes. "Human MC also express progesterone 176, 177 and testosterone 178 receptors, but their activation appears to have an inhibitory effect." Ref (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/exd.13288)
Plus your forced sleep could mean forced Melatonin production. Melatonin inhibits mast cells.
Other theories:
TRT is also compatible with Foxp3+ Treg deficiency theory Ref (https://www.molbiolcell.org/doi/full/10.1091/mbc.E14-08-1323).
TRT is anti-inflammatory Ref (https://academic.oup.com/jes/article/3/1/91/5137187).
Since mast cells reside in endocrine glands I would not be surprised if they are responsible for abnormal hormone levels in POISers.
-
Muon, thank you. Appreciate that you even addressed my Benadryl protocol.
-
Muon, thank you. Appreciate that you even addressed my Benadryl protocol.
From an experimental point of view, I always found Clomid (testosterone booster) to be helpful with my POIS. In fact I am in the process of buying some more, as my supply has almost run out.
I also had some positive experiences with testosterone gel dating back almost 20 years - it was prohibitively expensive back then, but I am sure the costs will have come down since then :)
-
Thanks, hurray!
-
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg34280#msg34280
Differential effects of testosterone on circulating neutrophils, monocytes, and platelets in men: Findings from two trials (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/andr.12834)
"Conclusions
Testosterone administration in men differentially increases neutrophil and monocyte counts. These findings, together with its erythropoietic effects, suggest that testosterone promotes the differentiation of hematopoietic progenitors into the myeloid lineage. These findings have potential mechanistic, therapeutic, and safety implications."
From an experimental point of view, I always found Clomid (testosterone booster) to be helpful with my POIS. In fact I am in the process of buying some more, as my supply has almost run out.
I also had some positive experiences with testosterone gel dating back almost 20 years - it was prohibitively expensive back then, but I am sure the costs will have come down since then :)
Then you may ask yourself the question what testosterone therapy and milnacipran do have in common.
One could also look in literature if and how TRT affects Th1/Th2 balance.
https://sci-hub.se/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0167569994900752
-
With all my TRT + Benadryl “success”, today is Day 3 (POIS onset = Day Zero), and *only now* is my brain FULLY back to 100%!! POIS is a vicious monster.
-
Demografx have you tested a non-drowsy 2nd gen anti-histamine on the days after O? I find it helps me.
-
drop247, thanks. I should try, certainlypois2 recommended Zyrtec, I guess I’ve been a little lazy to try.
-
Zrytec might be a little strong if you're already taking Benadryl. I'd say for 2nd gens from weakest to strongest would be Allegra-Claritin-Zrytec. But everyone tolerates things differently.
-
Thank you, drop247!
-
Zrytec might be a little strong if you're already taking Benadryl.
drop247, you’re absolutely right: I would never take 2 in the same class of OTC drugs at the same time.
-
Tried clomid/clomifene.
In two words it is working on me by 100%. I don't have any POIS effects right now. At all. It has propagated and far stronger effect compared to HCG.
I am taking it third time today(50mg, 50mg, today was 25mg) , it starts working very fast, and to full extent, but, strangely, some positive aspect of it (i would describe it as some sort of a shade of happiness) is peaking on a second day ( i didn't not taking it for longer yet so i don't have the data on what will be the effect without taking it on a 3rd day and after).
I don't have any pois effects. i can masturbate 5-6 times (or even more) a day, and nothing bad happens, i can sleep for 6 hours and i am waking up with clear head, i don't have any ringing dizziness or irritation, my brain never worked that clear, my thoughts are deep, my mood is happy and productive, my mind was not that calm for 15 years. i would say this is the best feeling that was with me for a long-long-long time.
Not to jinx it and to do a mistake I am changing my behaviour to a safe mode. Reducing the dose to 25mg and starting taking it only once in 2-5 days (i don't know the far border of effectiveness so i need to experiment with how long i can not take it without effect disappearing). Until i will gather enough information, start doing and monitoring my analysis and similar stuff.
I saw a message here in a core telling that it is "just a testosterone booster".
From an experimental point of view, I always found Clomid (testosterone booster) to be helpful with my POIS...
As far as i can understand it, it is NOT just a TRT booster and you need to be careful with taking it. With my simplistic view right now on the subject, it legitimately telling the body to start produce more TRT by blocking the blocker of TRT producer. With potential to develop tolerance to TRT producer, so... i need to do a big research on how it is all working. what to fear, what to monitor...and so on.
But if your body can produce TRT, i think it can be the therapy. From what i read so far, it is not a cure, the TRT production will slope to usual with time, but... it can be sloping to usual for month. I don't have any analisis on hands but from what i saw, i think my TRT is 1.5-3 times higher than my usual, and this amount of TRT is just completely overflooding POIS.
I saw in a internet some quazy legit (from medical perspective) bodybuilder that doing paid consultations, and one of his main themes are TRT, as for people who are taking bodybuilder chemistry and their TRT is dropping, and for people who are having TRT problems of their own (Hypogonadism), I am strongly feeling he can produce some very useful insights on how to monitor, what to take, what to fear, how to.... and so on.
I know that i need to start doing all kind of analizis, but with this xxxxxx COVID i am afraid to do them. I am working from home and don't intersect with any people so, it will be big change in safety protocols of mine. i have ffp3 masks but still...
This is not a encouragement to start taking it, this is just a report to provide data from my end. May be i needed to take it longer before posting this. I will do updates on what is going on with me.
-
Where are you from Ramore ? I'm willing to do an experiment on Clomid or Hcg but it's almost impossible to convince any doctor to prescribe something like that...
-
Sorry to hear it @portuguese_poiser. I am from Russia.
Here you can buy any drugs (except psychiatric, like antidepressants) in any pharmacy without them asking for the prescription. Hell, after COVID they even started to deliver non-psychiatric drugs straight to flats (and never ask for the prescription as you understand).
My first thought that will work flawlessly in your case if you are from Europe is to travel to Ukraine, ask for help to someone from the forum from there, and to test the drugs this way. I am not from Ukraine but i pretty sure there is the same situation of accessibility of drugs as in Russia, and Ukraine is more friendly with Europe in terms of Visas, i don't think you need it there. I think if you are from Portuguese (as your nickname suggesting) you can fly there in 3-4 hours with a ticket cost of 150$. So it will be completely possible to do something in a weekend.
But you need a good plan if you want this trip to be productive. You need to find someone from there willing to help (it will be easy for person not knowing the language, but i guess, it is not the end of the world to travel by yourself too. you only need to find pharmacy where it is available and to buy it. you can just show the name of the drug from the phone), you need a complete list of drugs that you will be testing...and so on and so forth.
I guess, i don't know, ( you need to do a research of your own on that) that you can buy some amount of drugs (for a month for example) and take it in your home country. But you need to do a research on allowed kinds and amounts of drugs to take.
I can think through some details if you want on how to do it.
My advice to you, if you would decide to make a trip,already think that you will fail on that trip, and you wont find something working on you. If you will find something first try, great, if you don't, think about it as beginning of the gurney, your are on the right track and that was the first trip from many others, trying to find the resolution. Basically don't give up and keep punching.
-
From quick googling, there is other herbs proposed as clomid alternative.
(Usually woman focused...)
As an idea: black cohosh (should find it on Amazon.ES or whatever Portugese site you mght use)
via https://www.pcosliving.com/pcos-living-blog/natural-alternative-clomid
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=black+cohosh+clomid (hm, female treatment for clomid+cohosh)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actaea_racemosa#Traditional_medicine (LIVER problems!?)
(I've never heard of this herb before, so please research first. I'm also interested in opinions on vitex castus (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3298))
(If you experiment with it, please create a new thread and let us know there)
-
Has anyone tried daily TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) for POIS for at least 4 - 6 weeks and it DIDN’T work?
I’m only interested if you tried:
• patches
or
• gel
(I don’t believe in injections - - they spike in and out of the system too quickly to be uniformly long-lasting for POIS. Patches/gel more closely mimic the body’s natural rhythm of testosterone absorption and implementation).
THANK YOU!
Demo
This is *not* my endorsement for anyone to try TRT. In my case, I lost all fertility, my sperm count dropped to 0.00!
-
After a lifetime (many decades) of POIS struggle, I think I finally landed a “90%+ cure” formula for me
For myself. No idea if/how this will work for other POISers.
• abstinence (19 days this time)
• Heavy TRT @ POIS onset (8mg Androderm this time vs. 2mg to 4mg/out-of-POIS - 365 days/year
• Heavy Benadryl @ POIS onset (100mg [50am/50pm] this time vs. 12.5mg/out-of-POIS)
• “Extra” sleep (Benadryl-induced) @ POIS onset to “ride out” early symptom onset
I wrote this over 3 months ago. It is still valid, although I would add that what works best for me is to
FORCE SLEEP on Day Zero (the day of POIS onset).
Yesterday was Day Zero for me, and I took enough Benadryl (without overdosing!) to sleep/stay rested in bed till 3:45 in the afternoon. I’m fortunate that way: I’m retired.
-
@demografx do i understand it correctly? do you feel that TRT is only masking your pois? It can be doing it very effective, and you be doing almost ok, but the low/lowish TRT is not the actually case?
basically TRT is greatly working on pois but it is not the cause of pois? at least in the beginning when you had your own TRT...? some symptoms of TRT deficiency is suspiciously similar to pois as i am reading it, but my feeling is starting to shift to that pois is not caused by problems with TRT and with something else.
-
Message sent to me by Ramone about his Clomid treatment - He asked me to post in here
Hello. It is going not that great (from the ideal scenario) right now. By the time i ate all first pack, the strength is noticeably dropped. When i was eating first 5 pills i would say, the effect of, i guess TRT raising was about 30% above ~good~, better than good. but as i took it more, the effect was dropping to just ~i am completely ok~ with masturbation, on pill 8-9-10 the effect dropped below completely ok, i would say 30% worth ~than you want to feel~.
After I ate first 10 pills, i decided to do some some sort of rotation scheme and not be on clomid all the time. I was thinking to eat clomid 1 month, than HCG for month, and then maybe be on one of the antidepressant (for me Zoloft was working that way) who are reducing the need for sex.
And I end up just be sober and not having orgasms for a week or so. From start of this year i decided to take the orgasm every day, or multiple, the spring was rough in terms of tiredness aspect, the summer was much better in that aspect and the worth symptom was very severe anxiety.
So it was the longest pause this year.
I decided to change the scheme again, it was the most productive week for a while (the downside i guess was i could not sleep more than 3 hours straight).
So i changed my scheme. I decided to be withdraw from orgasms for 2 weeks, the last day have a pill of Clomid and take a few orgasms, and than repeat the 2 weeks...
I took the pill and after around 30min i took 4 masturbations. The one pill was not enough for me. I was starting feeling that headache is on the edge of happening and overall irritability and so on and so force. And i took another one.
My feeling was not far from as great as without orgasms, but i would say it was pretty ok to be in this state. Today the symptoms partially came back. No headache or anxiety but the inflammation, tiredness and the irritability are severe today. the day is wasted basically. I didn't took the another pill today, so... And i need to mention when i am having orgasms once or twice a day the anxiety is killing but the overall symptoms are on some level to say it this way. But when i am taking a big pause the effect of POIS are raising by x2 or x3.
I guess clomid is definitely something i want to have, but right now my theory evolved in that TRT reduction after orgasm or overall low level of TRT is NOT the case of POIS. My theory right now that when i am taking something boosting TRT, it actually going above normal of average man, and the reason this works on POIS is that TRT somehow masking/reducing/can completely kill pois for a few days.
Right now on my pois testing on myself i want to switch focus from TRT and try the effectiveness of antiinflammatory/antiallergenic drugs because as I watch carefully it is seems more and more looking as immune reaction.
To cap it out. I i was me i wanted to have clomid, at least for now, when i don't know something better working on me. With time clomid tolerance is increasing and it starting to work less.
Right now i can think of it as a magic wand that can put myself on my legs if i want to do something important, but i don't think it can be the drug that i will take every day and to have orgasms everyday, sadly the effect is dropping and i will be using it as early as possible so my body wont be tolerate it this much.
-
I have noticed in the past when I have been doing lots of heavy weight lifting (squats and deadlifts - boost in testosterone) I don't get POIS symptoms from wet dreams anymore or it is much weaker.
In response to Ramone on what testosterone does for POIS, testosterone is directly correlated with autonomic function so this is probably why it masks POIS.
-
@demografx do i understand it correctly? do you feel that TRT is only masking your pois? It can be doing it very effective, and you be doing almost ok, but the low/lowish TRT is not the actually case?
basically TRT is greatly working on pois but it is not the cause of pois? at least in the beginning when you had your own TRT...? some symptoms of TRT deficiency is suspiciously similar to pois as i am reading it, but my feeling is starting to shift to that pois is not caused by problems with TRT and with something else.
I’m not sure!
-
Alternatives to Testosterone Therapy: A Review (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2050052117301221)
-
My 10 fingertips dry up, become numb in POIS. Drives me berserk but I don’t know why! Am I the only one?
I have been doing Google searches on “fingertips and nerve endings” and could not find a clue as to POIS relationship & treatment...so I thought I would post the above (again) to see if anyone else here can shine a light on this huge (for me!) mystery of one of my main POIS symptoms?
Thanks for reading this!
-
Silly thing is that when i took multiple orgasms every day this year, yes, i had painful anxiety, but the tiredness aspect was just not there. or occasionally it was, but it would go away in 5-6 hours and still it was pretty mild.
Right now, after a pause in masturbation around a week, and taking a fap, almost two days pasted. And i have this flu like xxxx, and it is so bad, i am basically in a vegetable state trying not to die. It is far worst in me if i am taking a break in masturbation more than for 2-3 days . If it was not about the productivity I would actually prefered to fap every day. It is far more blend.
No profanity, please
-
My 10 fingertips dry up, become numb in POIS. Drives me berserk but I don’t know why! Am I the only one?
I have been doing Google searches on “fingertips and nerve endings” and could not find a clue as to POIS relationship & treatment...so I thought I would post the above (again) to see if anyone else here can shine a light on this huge (for me!) mystery of one of my main POIS symptoms?
Thanks for reading this!
Demo, I have dry/cracked-looking fingertips, and there seems to be a correlation with the severity of the overall symptom set. I used to have similar skin problems all over my hands and under and around the edges of my feet, which came and went a bit over the years, but those have receded drastically after I started taking chlorella a few months back. My fingertips are still like that though. I haven't noticed any numbness, but I have had somewhat numb feet since I started taking chlorella.
-
Thank you, Clues!
-
Is there any published study, besides the HCG one, that uses a hormonal cure or links POIS with hormones at all? I have an upcoming urologist appointment and would like to try hormonal treatment. The more evidence I bring the better my case. During my first brief chat he mentioned he thought it was immunological and the best option would be to try low dose SSRI. That's not a path I'm sure I want to go down.
-
After a lifetime (many decades) of POIS struggle, I think I finally landed a “90%+ cure” formula for me
For myself. No idea if/how this will work for other POISers.
• abstinence (19 days this time)
• Heavy TRT @ POIS onset (8mg Androderm this time vs. 2mg to 4mg/out-of-POIS - 365 days/year
• Heavy Benadryl @ POIS onset (100mg [50am/50pm] this time vs. 12.5mg/out-of-POIS)
• “Extra” sleep (Benadryl-induced) @ POIS onset to “ride out” early symptom onset
I wrote this over 3 months ago. It is still valid, although I would add that what works best for me is to
FORCE SLEEP on Day Zero (the day of POIS onset).
Yesterday was Day Zero for me, and I took enough Benadryl (without overdosing!) to sleep/stay rested in bed till 3:45 in the afternoon. I’m fortunate that way: I’m retired.
-
Has anyone tried daily TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) for POIS for at least 4 - 6 weeks and it DIDN’T work?
I’m only interested if you tried:
• patches
or
• gel
(I don’t believe in injections - - they spike in and out of the system too quickly to be uniformly long-lasting for POIS. Patches/gel more closely mimic the body’s natural rhythm of testosterone absorption and implementation).
THANK YOU!
Demo
This is *not* my endorsement for anyone to try TRT. In my case, I lost all fertility, my sperm count dropped to 0.00!
-
In addition, Satureja montana was able to significantly increase testosterone serum level, almost duplicating it, when acutely administered at a dose of 50 mg/kg, which can additionally improve sexual performance [21]. These results suggest that Satureja montana may be considered an interesting alternative to SSRIs [21] (Table 1).
https://sci-hub.se/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S009042951501050X
-
...what works best for me [besides Testosterone] is to
FORCE SLEEP on Day Zero (the day of POIS onset).
Does anyone else get some POIS relief from
EXTRA SLEEP?
Please share your experience.
Thank you.
Demo
-
Yes :)
But it's not always possible with work/family.
I think if I wouldn't be self employed I would have much bigger issues even with POIS.
-
Considering the fact that TESTOSTERONE DROPS upon POIS onset, I just now increased my dose to
higher-than-ever quantity (16 mg Androderm patches in 8 hours = 8X my normal TRT dose) and also a higher-than-ever Benadryl dose (100mg in the same period as TRT) to induce morning sleep (it’s 9:00am local time).
Wish me luck!
I am NOT encouraging anyone else to try this!
-
Good luck with your experiment and be safe!
-
Many thanks, Limejuice!
-
...be safe!
I hope I am!
If not, I blame POIS’ cruelty for a tortured lifetime!
-
...be safe!
I hope I am!
If not, I blame POIS’ cruelty for a tortured lifetime!
Limejuice, with your cautionary note, plus Animus’ concern about the dangers of testosterone just a few minutes ago, I just now REMOVED 4 of the 8 patches.
I really appreciate it. High anxiety started to kick in physically plus I have a heart condition (open heart surgery a few years ago!).
-
[I took a] higher-than-ever Benadryl dose...to induce morning sleep
It didn’t work in getting me to sleep, but it did reduce the anxiety somewhat.
-
Glad your ok. The list of side effects for testosterone patches is long and includes chest pain. I bet the high anxiety was scary.
-
I bet the high anxiety was scary.
Yes it was!
Thanks for your kind thoughts!
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
This is what my TRT POIS therapy looks like. Each and every evening (365 days/year) I place 2mg patches - -
that you see in the photo above - - on my upper arms and/or thighs. When POIS attacks me, I increase the dosage.
For the 10 years I’ve been doing this, it’s been with a doctor’s prescription and supervision, either an endocrinologist or primary care physician.
Be careful, I lost my sperm count, probably because of my POIS therapy.
It still works for me!
-
THE GUY ABOVE JUST NEUTRALIZES HIS POIS WITH STICKERS!!! UNBELIEVABLE! :P
?
Maybe the *other* “guy above” can explain.
Thanks,
Demo
ps - Muon (the *other-other guy) why are you shouting? (All caps).
-
It was a joke. That something so simple can help you with POIS.
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
This is what my TRT POIS therapy looks like. Each and every evening (365 days/year) I place 2mg patches - -
that you see in the photo above - - on my upper arms and/or thighs. When POIS attacks me, I increase the dosage.
For the 10 years I’ve been doing this, it’s been with a doctor’s prescription and supervision, either an endocrinologist or primary care physician.
Be careful, I lost my sperm count, probably because of my POIS therapy.
It still works for me!
Good to hear that your TRT is still doing its job :)
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
This is what my TRT POIS therapy looks like. Each and every evening (365 days/year) I place 2mg patches - -
that you see in the photo above - - on my upper arms and/or thighs. When POIS attacks me, I increase the dosage.
For the 10 years I’ve been doing this, it’s been with a doctor’s prescription and supervision, either an endocrinologist or primary care physician.
Be careful, I lost my sperm count, probably because of my POIS therapy.
It still works for me!
Good to hear that your TRT is still doing its job :)
Thanks, hurray!
-
It was a joke. That something so simple can help you with POIS.
Works better in person, Muon. Some humor (such as this) via the internet is tricky to convey - at best - and is often misinterpreted.
-
It would not surprise me if testosterone levels turned out to be an important part of the POIS puzzle that we are trying to solve.
Interesting, hurray!
Back in 2008, your quote above was also the firm conclusion of Czech sexologist Dr Petr Weiss, who was adamant with me on the telephone that I “needed testosterone”. I was skeptical (almost zero POIS studies were done back then!), but I was desperate, so I simply went along with his theorizing (“why not?”) and...got lucky with TRT for POIS!
(https://english.radio.cz/sites/default/files/styles/twitter/public/images/weiss_petr.jpg?itok=g6OkwxQ0)
Dr Petr Weiss
Professor (Full)
Charles University
Prague, Czech Republic
-
It was a joke. That something so simple can help you with POIS.
Works better in person, Muon. Some humor (such as this) via the internet is tricky to convey - at best - and is often misinterpreted.
Ok
-
Cross-posted from hurray/ Milnacipran topic
Thanks for sharing that [posted above] information Demo :) It shows that there are medical professionals out there who take POIS seriously - I think many of us at some time have spoken to a doctor who dismissed our POIS symptoms, or recommended we visit a psychiatrist >:(
I wonder if Dr Petr Weiss is still practising medicine, and if he has followed the development of POIS research?
hurray, Dr Weiss is a PhD sexologist, not an MD.
I sent him our posts earlier today and he acknowledged and appreciated them.
If anyone wishes to contact him, send me a message!
(https://english.radio.cz/sites/default/files/styles/twitter/public/images/weiss_petr.jpg?itok=g6OkwxQ0)
Dr Petr Weiss
Professor (Full)
Charles University
Prague, Czech Republic
-
Thanks for sharing that information Demo :) It shows that there are medical professionals out there who take POIS seriously - I think many of us at some time have spoken to a doctor who dismissed our POIS symptoms, or recommended we visit a psychiatrist >:(
I wonder if Dr Petr Weiss is still practising medicine, and if he has followed the development of POIS research?
Dr Weiss is a PhD sexologist, not an MD.
I sent him our posts earlier today and he acknowledged and appreciated them.
If anyone wishes to contact him, send me a message!
(https://english.radio.cz/sites/default/files/styles/twitter/public/images/weiss_petr.jpg?itok=g6OkwxQ0)
Dr Petr Weiss
Professor (Full)
Charles University
Prague, Czech Republic
Oops, thanks for the correction Demo. I'm pleased that he took the time to read our posts :)
-
Oops, thanks for the [PhD] correction Demo.
hurray, considering the huge dearth of POIS-empathetic professionals out there, I was MORE than happy to find Dr Weiss - a PhD sexologist - and take that extra step to combine his theorizing with a local university
MD-endocrinologist to arrive at my personal POIS treatment.
A Harvard biophysicist friend of mine who helped develop cutting edge AIDS treatment, suggested that we POISers try to work with college/university-connected medical professionals. Why? Because POIS is not yet medically recognized, and colleges/universities are more
research-oriented. I followed his advice.
-
I'm pleased that [Dr Weiss] took the time to read our posts :)
Me too, hurray! Maybe because it’s a nice & slow Sunday ;D
-
If anyone wishes to contact him, send me a message!
Could you ask him if we can put him on Quantum's list?
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2575.0
Thanks
-
Oops, thanks for the [PhD] correction Demo.
hurray, considering the huge dearth of POIS-empathetic professionals out there, I was MORE than happy to find Dr Weiss - a PhD sexologist - and take that extra step to combine his theorizing with a local university
MD-endocrinologist to arrive at my personal POIS treatment.
A Harvard biophysicist friend of mine who helped develop cutting edge AIDS treatment, suggested that we POISers try to work with college/university-connected medical professionals. Why? Because POIS is not yet medically recognized, and colleges/universities are more
research-oriented. I followed his advice.
You made a good decision.
A Harvard biophysicist friend of mine who helped develop cutting edge AIDS treatment, suggested that we POISers try to work with college/university-connected medical professionals.
Yes. These kind of link-ups would be invaluable to us.
-
Thanks, hurray! :) :)
-
If anyone wishes to contact Dr Petr Weiss, send me a message!
Could you ask him if we can put him on Quantum's list?
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2575.0
Thanks
OK. Asked.
I ask members here to contact me first because my hunch is that Dr Petr Weiss should be approached on a case-by-case basis:
• he’s not a “POIS specialist/medical practitioner”, his main career is teaching
• no idea if/how he wants to charge fees for POIS consultation
-
...what works best for me [besides Testosterone] is to
FORCE SLEEP on Day Zero (the day of POIS onset).
Does anyone else get some POIS relief from
EXTRA SLEEP?
Please share your experience.
Thank you.
Demo
It’s Day 1 (yesterday was POIS onset) and at 4:30pm I took 75mg Benadryl and my 2nd day of high-dose TRT.
This is my 2nd attempt at mid-day Benadryl. While inducing sleep for recovery doesn’t seem to work mid-day (Circadian rhythm?), it does reduce “POIS anxiety” for me. But I did have 4 “good hours” of wakefulness prior to 4:30pm.
-
Huh? I thought you already used it to force sleep during mid-day, so you always forced sleep during the evening/night and slept through the night?
-
That, plus morning. I’m trying it right now again, it’s 1:15pm. Maybe circumstance, anxiety, Circadian, make mid day more difficult. It’s not science that’s for sure!!! ;D
-
Muon, way back when I started my Magical TRT Mystery Tour, I had an MRI of the brain ordered by my endocrinologist, resulting in a find of Empy Sella Syndrome. Not sure if/where to post...
https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/empty-sella-syndrome/#general-discussion
-
Sounds like TRT and melatonin cooperating.
Muon, way back when I started my Magical TRT Mystery Tour, I had an MRI of the brain ordered by my endocrinologist, resulting in a find of Empty Sella Syndrome. Not sure if/where to post...
https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/empty-sella-syndrome/#general-discussion
That's funny I just read about that syndrome today when I were looking for a pituitary gland dysfunction test panel (that area tend to be triggered often in my case but mostly without pain and it can react to POIS/arousal, if I have a headache it's almost always in that or close to that spot). Also I heard my brother speak about his suspicion of POIS inducing pressure changes in CSF. You got tons of symptoms if you list them side by side. The POIScenter adventures continues...
-
After reading your posts I decided to play this (right now!) ;D ;D
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cv9LF5r07cE
-
Huh? I thought you already used it to force sleep during mid-day, so you always forced sleep during the evening/night and slept through the night?
You’re right, I almost forgot...it’s only been the last 2-3X that I had difficulty. My above explanation I think explains why/why not daytime works.
-
Huh? I thought you already used [Benadryl] to force sleep during mid-day, so you always forced sleep during the evening/night and slept through the night?
After reading your posts I decided to play this (right now!) ;D ;D
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cv9LF5r07cE
It’s now 3:30pm, 3 hours after taking 75mg Benadryl, and 3 hours after taking 8mg TRT - 3-4X my normal TRT dose.
No extended sleep but
• lots of rest (60-80% as good as sleep?)
and
• brief quick flashes of in-out sleep (very brief but DEEP)
Feeling very refreshed!
No POIS symptoms for now.
-
And now - - to fully wake up - - it’s time to imbibe one of my favorite drinks...
(https://previews.123rf.com/images/ocusfocus/ocusfocus1410/ocusfocus141000026/32303843-young-happy-business-man-holding-a-funny-huge-and-oversized-cup-of-black-coffee-in-caffeine-addictio.jpg)
-
...It’s now 3:30pm, 3 hours after taking 75mg Benadryl...
BIG MISTAKE! 75mg was way too much! Dopey/groggy since 3:30pm! 1t’s 12:01 now (midnight)...
Good Night!!
:)
-
Muon, way back when I started my Magical TRT Mystery Tour, I had an MRI of the brain ordered by my endocrinologist, resulting in a find of Empy Sella Syndrome. Not sure if/where to post...
https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/empty-sella-syndrome/#general-discussion
If you had the empty sella syndrome for a long period of time maybe chronically lower pituitary hormones made some body systems work bad resulting in POIS.
-
And now - - to fully wake up - - it’s time to imbibe one of my favorite drinks...
(https://previews.123rf.com/images/ocusfocus/ocusfocus1410/ocusfocus141000026/32303843-young-happy-business-man-holding-a-funny-huge-and-oversized-cup-of-black-coffee-in-caffeine-addictio.jpg)
:D If I drink this one I don't sleep during one month !
-
Not sure if/where to post...
Very simple I've said this before. Make your own case report/personal thread, like Demografx' case/personal thread. Just dump info into it bit by bit. You don't have to organize it properly from the start. Add a bit of info and organize it step by step if you have time and energy to do so.
I see that Quantum has put that section ('Personal POIS Summaries and Histories') under POIS Life Style ---> Lifestyle diary. I would like to see that cut out and have its own category and being placed under POIS Lifestyle but it may be fine as it is, problem is that it isn't being used properly. Perhaps it's not clear to people.
Anyway you can create your own personal thread in there. Make sure you reserve some posts if you need to expand and you may link that thread to your signature.
If you have a seperate category for this then you have only threads like these:
Name A' case
Name B' case
Name C' case
etc.
-
And now - - to fully wake up - - it’s time to imbibe one of my favorite drinks...
(https://previews.123rf.com/images/ocusfocus/ocusfocus1410/ocusfocus141000026/32303843-young-happy-business-man-holding-a-funny-huge-and-oversized-cup-of-black-coffee-in-caffeine-addictio.jpg)
:D If I drink this one I don't sleep during one month !
;D ;D ;D
-
Muon, way back when I started my Magical TRT Mystery Tour, I had an MRI of the brain ordered by my endocrinologist, resulting in a find of Empy Sella Syndrome. Not sure if/where to post...
https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/empty-sella-syndrome/#general-discussion
If you had the empty sella syndrome for a long period of time maybe chronically lower pituitary hormones made some body systems work bad resulting in POIS.
Thanks, Journey!
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
My POIS treatment is no longer available, due to a “shortage”. Endocrinologist asked me if I wanted to try the injection or gel route. I declined. After 10 years, I’m hoping my body has been “trained” somewhat, so I’m just going to tough it out with...nothing. Wish me luck.
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
My POIS treatment is no longer available, due to a “shortage”. Endocrinologist asked me if I wanted to try the injection or gel route. I declined. After 10 years, I’m hoping my body has been “trained” somewhat, so I’m just going to tough it out with...nothing. Wish me luck.
Interesting experiment. Good Luck
-
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/26uSEJmdKN5BRZUHK/giphy.gif)
My new POIS treatment!
(Actually it’s my old treatment minus the TRT)
“Extra” sleep works for me and Benadryl does the job in my case.
Don’t worry, Quantum, I’ll follow the 3-week rule! ;D ;D
-
Interesting experiment. Good Luck
Thanks, CP2!
-
I could not find a topic about Benadryl. But I also ordered it. It is not available in The Netherlands, so it has to be shipped. How do you use Benadryl? Do you take before or after O.
-
This one should have less side effects than benadryl Demo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupatadine
It also is anti-PAF and inhibits TNF-alpha from mast cells. Not sure if it is available in the USA.
-
Thanks, Muon!
-
I could not find a topic about Benadryl. But I also ordered it. It is not available in The Netherlands, so it has to be shipped. How do you use Benadryl? Do you take before or after O.
Van, when my POIS begins, I take Benadryl only to FORCE EXTRA SLEEP. I feel the more that I can sleep (DAYTIME as well as night), the faster my POIS symptoms are healed. If you read through my last posts here about Benadryl in this thread, you will better see what I mean.
-
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/26uSEJmdKN5BRZUHK/giphy.gif)
My new POIS treatment!
(Actually it’s my old treatment minus the TRT)
“Extra” sleep works for me and Benadryl does the job in my case.
Don’t worry, Quantum, I’ll follow the 3-week rule! ;D ;D
FIRST TRIAL RESULT
Today is Day 2 (POIS begins on “Day Zero”) and I feel as good as I had been before, but WITHOUT TRT! Maybe my body/mind has been “trained” after 10 years of 365 days/year TRT usage?
Or is it a placebo effect?
Time will tell :)
Meanwhile...
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71iYMjpcPLL._SL1200_.jpg)
-
Yes I also feel better after a good sleep or a nap. Sometimes I am awake after only 4 hours of sleep. Before I would stay in bed. But now I get out. Have breakfast and after an hour I take a nap.
I tried Rupatadine last year but it did not do anything.
-
I tried Rupatadine last year but it did not do anything.
Ok good to know.
-
I tried Rupatadine last year but it did not do anything.
Thanks, Van
-
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/26uSEJmdKN5BRZUHK/giphy.gif)
I ordered Benadryl.
Van, this cautionary message is not for you, because I’m sure you understand the caveats. This is for other forum members, including newcomers:
1. I am not recommending Benadryl to anyone, I am simply sharing my own personal experience (everyone is different), after 10 years of combined TRT & Benadryl usage.
2. If you do decide to try it as “off-label usage” as I do (mostly for forcing extra sleep), please do not exceed the recommended dosage on the packaging.
-
The only antihistamine that had a minor positive effect on me was a first generation antihistamine. Tried 3 other antihistamines but those were second generation and didn't do anything. First generation penetrates the blood brain barrier. I think people should at least try both generations before discarding antihistamines.
-
Muon,
Were you using antihistamines for sleep induction or for direct treatment of POIS symptoms?
My entire discussion is about sleep induction.
-
Muon,
Were you using antihistamines for sleep induction or for direct treatment of POIS symptoms?
My entire discussion is about sleep induction. [Edited/added this line at same time as Muon reply was posted - Demo]
Direct treatment for POIS. But I just noticed this week that the only antihistamine that had an effect was first generation.
Edit: Does benadryl work when you avoid sleep, like skip naps during the day while on benadryl?
-
Does benadryl work when you avoid sleep, like skip naps during the day while on benadryl?
If I can’t sleep, Benadryl has a mild calming effect, thereby helping my POIS-induced anxiety.
My goal, however, is to only take Benadryl for (“extra”) sleep induction.
-
Hi all,
I like to tell you about my experience with testosteron-gel.
I suffer from POIS for 7 years now. my problems started after (I don't know if it is because if that) using Finasteride, and a long long time of chronic stress. Also sleeping problems and depression were there all those 7 years.
we measured T levels multiple times and they are always somewhere halfway the ref. values.
Even when the values were good, I asked to give it a try... now its 3 weeks after starting with the gel and al my weird problems are gone.
I feel energetic and motivated, my sleep is way better, my mind more clear and no feelings of depression anymore! POIS is gone for lets say 85% and especially the brainfog is almost totally gone! this is really insane.
.
G from the Netherlands.
-
we measured T levels multiple times and they are always somewhere halfway the ref. values.
Which of the following have you measured and what were the values?
Total Testosterone
SHBG
Free Testosterone
Edit: The reason I ask this is because Total T can be normal but free T low. Demo and some others already had a suspicion that TRT might help people with normal T levels.
I suffer from POIS for 7 years now. my problems started after (I don't know if it is because if that) using Finasteride, and a long long time of chronic stress. Also sleeping problems and depression were there all those 7 years.
Stress prior to the development of POIS...again. I have seen this so many times now, I have stopped tracking these. Bassett (2020) also reported this in literature.
-
we measured T levels multiple times and they are always somewhere halfway the ref. values.
Which of the following have you measured and what were the values?
Total Testosterone
SHBG
Free Testosterone
Edit: The reason I ask this is because Total T can be normal but free T low. Demo and some others already had a suspicion that TRT might help people with normal T levels.
we measured 3 times.
a while ago (2016):
total testosteron: 17.72 nmol/L-- ref: 8.6 - 29 free testosteron: 22.83 nmol/L -- ref: 7 - 25 SHBG: 38 nmol/L -- ref:17 - 52
6 weeks ago, before O and after O
before O: total testosteron: 21.7 nmol/L free testosteron : no value SHBG: 52
after O: total testosteron: 17.4 nmol/L free testosteron: no value SHBG: 50
latest measurement (with androgel after +-3 weeks) will come this week. i will keep you informed. that measurement includes also free testosteron.
problems are worse with the last measurement
-
Could you copy that to the results thread? You may put your first post in there as well for context.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0
You can update your data there by modifying your post if new data presents itself.
What do you mean by 'problems are worse with the last measurement'?
Does 'no value' for free T means zero? I think Heather reported something similar if I remember correctly.
-
Could you copy that to the results thread? You may put your first post in there as well for context.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0
i will do!
You can update your data there by modifying your post if new data presents itself.
What do you mean by 'problems are worse with the last measurement'?
Does 'no value' for free T means zero? I think Heather reported something similar if I remember correctly.
i will do!
That means : not measured.
I was at another doctor while asking for the measurement.
Here the doctor sends you to some place where they do the blood test, and till a year ago, you get a form from them and you see what they are going to test. Now you only get a barcode, so I was not aware of the fact that we did not a complete test.
the next test will be complete.
"What do you mean by 'problems are worse with the last measurement'?"
I mean that when I had these POIS problems back in 2016... it did not include sleepless nights after O. I was also able to drive a car safely and I did not have that much of depressed feelings. Also the timespan I had the problems was only like 24 to 48 hours. Till 3 weeks ago I was a depressed and emotional unstable zombie for at least 4 days and dropped stuff accidentally all day long. Bumped up to door openings, restless short nights, visiting the toilet for at least 4 times in the night etc etc. In short: i felt drunk and depressed, and not able to work or drive a car safely.
-
G, Your statement, “ Please give it a try”, was removed. Please see our forum rules @
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259
“Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice“
-
G, many thanks for your reporting!
After 10 years of testosterone patches, I’m reluctant to switch to gel, but you have provided teriffic information on your experience!
Thanks again.
-
G, Your statement, “ Please give it a try”, was removed. Please see our forum rules @
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259
“Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice“
Yes that's because TRT can lead to azoospermia for the people who don't know it yet.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6241897/
-
The “no medical advice” rule was derived here in 2010 because any medical advice over the internet - - without specific patient-doctor evaluation - - is inappropriate and potentially dangerous.
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
My POIS treatment is no longer available, due to a “shortage”. Endocrinologist asked me if I wanted to try the injection or gel route. I declined. After 10 years, I’m hoping my body has been “trained” somewhat, so I’m just going to tough it out with...nothing. Wish me luck.
The pharmacy just now called me and “found a 30-day supply”!
The plot thickens!
-
Hi Demo
Does testosterone works for preventing your hot shower problem?
-
No, aswin, the only prevention I found is bird baths ;D
-
Sorry for the question? Can you describe how do you do the bird bath? I am becoming mentally depressed now so much that I could not understand even normal things unless explained. I have both hot and cold shower problem apart from shaving the head or face. These things can cause symptoms as hard as POIS and my doctors say it is all in my head and I need psychiatric therapy.
-
G, Your statement, “ Please give it a try”, was removed. Please see our forum rules @
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259
“Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice“
Sorry,
I was just so happy with the result, forgot this is forbidden. wanted to share and help, but understand it's dangerous.
-
G, thanks for understanding!
-
Cross-posted from “Went to an andrologist and...TRT helps“
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3557.msg37267#msg37267
Hello guys, some months ago i went to an andrologist and my trt levels were 3,70 ng/ml and trt really helps.One of my symptoms are that i'm really dizzy and TRT almost completely eliminates the dizziness
This is what i wanted to say,thanks!
Thanks, Drew1312
-
I could not find a topic about Benadryl. But I also ordered it. It is not available in The Netherlands, so it has to be shipped. How do you use Benadryl? Do you take before or after O.
A bit offtopic but I want to report that Benadryl did not help me. Gives me a dry mouth, no better sleep.
-
Van, Muon and others have posted alternatives to Benadryl.
It works for me, but many people react differently.
-
Cross-posted from:
Topic: POIS Paper Archive - a list of scientific articles about POIS
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3127.msg37366#msg37366
No POIS but potentially a very important paper. Adding this to the testosterone section on page 1:
RESOLUTION OF SEASONAL ALLERGIES BY TESTOSTERONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY IN A HYPOGONADAL MALE PATIENT: A CASE REPORT (https://journals.aace.com/doi/full/10.4158/EP161530.CR)
Thanks, Muon!
This is exactly how my medical records describe me:
“HYPOGONADAL MALE PATIENT”
(I’m not medically-listed primarily as a “POISer” - - my endocrinologist is too conservative to profile me with just having POIS :) )
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/26uSEJmdKN5BRZUHK/giphy.gif)
With my newfound 30-day supply of TRT patches, I continue my old POIS treatment regimen.
It’s still working for me: today is POIS Day Zero (POIS symptom onset began this morning).
For details, read my recent posts at this Testosterone thread. I have been using this protocol (TRT + Benadryl - note: a Benadryl side effect for me is nightmares) for the last 10 years.
Can it work for you? That’s for you and your doctor to explore. We are all different.
-
Testosterone patches dramatically decrease your own production of testosterone. So once you started using patches, it will not help your own production so you have to continue the patches, or quit it and try to kick start the normal production with things on the list...[see link below]
The above paragraph from BoneBroth is an excellent
note of caution to everyone considering TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) - - which is what I have been doing for 10 years. I use testosterone patches, but this cautionary note applies equally to testosterone gel and testosterone injection.
BoneBroth’s list can be found at:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3572.msg37380#msg37380
ps - TRT caused my sperm count to go to 0.00 - - I have grown children so that’s ok. If you’re considering starting a family, keep this in mind!
-
My POIS doctor it is weird that my testosterone went from 10 to 30 and then back to 15. The urologist said it is ok and sended me away. My POIS doctor also thinks it is strange that two immunologists I visited said it is ok that my IgM was too low. He talked about seeing a doctor in Belgium or Germany.
Have you looked into if these values correlate with changes in environmental temperature/seasons? Encountered this when looking for temperature dependence of acetylcholinesterase in humans. Not a human study but saw IgM being mentioned and remembered you told me about low IgM. Temperature-mediated changes in stress responses, acetylcholinesterase, and immune responses of juvenile olive flounder Paralichthys olivaceus in a bio-floc environment (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848619300699)
-
ps - TRT caused my sperm count to go to 0.00 - - I have grown children so that’s ok. If you’re considering starting a family, keep this in mind!
Probably the TRT is not only telling the testicles to stop produce testosterone, but also sperms.
-
The only problem with that theory BoneBroth is there is a documented case of hCG alleviating POIS. hCG increases testosterone without lowering sperm production.
-
Well is it only hCG in the TRT?
-
Sorry I thought your post was about TRT stopping sperm production and therefore sperm allergy.
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/26uSEJmdKN5BRZUHK/giphy.gif)
My new pharmacist found another 60-day supply of Androderm! (There’s a shortage. Pandemic-related?)
Theory: with POIS onset, there is a dramatic drop in testosterone. So I take 4x my average daily dose of Androderm testosterone patches to offset the T-drop.
365 days/year: I take 2mg/day
POIS onset: I take 8mg/day for the 1st 2 days
Benadryl: 50 - 75mg at POIS onset for “extra” SLEEP (this gets me through nastier symptoms rather quickly! Repeated as needed first 2 days/POIS)
It’s been 10 years of TRT-for-POIS protocol for me. It’s not perfect but I’m happy. Especially with my most recent tweaking, described above.
This is not a recommendation or endorsement for other POIS sufferers. I am only reporting my own personal experiments & experiences. It has risks.
-
Watch this webinar (https://www.facebook.com/DrHertoghe/videos/304064200804299) from today with hormonal expert dr Thierry Hertoghe. Very useful info on testosterone and HGF deficiencies.
-
how often would i be able to have sex with this remedy?
-
Impossible to answer. Everyone is different. And no one knows if TRT will even work for you. At all.
This [TRT] is not a recommendation or endorsement for other POIS sufferers. I am only reporting my own personal experiments & experiences. It has risks.
-
For those who have tried TRT; When does the effect kick in after application?
-
For those who have tried TRT; When does the effect kick in after application?
It took my system a few weeks. But only for the very first application.
-
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/26uSEJmdKN5BRZUHK/giphy.gif)
I have been singing Benadryl’s praises for a long time to induce FORCED DAYTIME SLEEP, which miraculously lets me sleep through some of the worst initial POIS symptoms.
But you should be aware of some risks, e.g.,
Benadryl’s increased dementia risk
in this Harvard Medical School article:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-drugs-like-benadryl-linked-increased-dementia-risk-201501287667
If I’m reading the above correctly, Claritin might be a better choice.
-
Does anyone have a recommendation for a quality Tribulus supplement? I imagine so much of it out there is just junk.
-
Does anyone have a recommendation for a quality Tribulus supplement? I imagine so much of it out there is just junk.
“Despite marketing claims, Tribulus terrestris
does not appear to increase testosterone in humans. This conclusion is based on studies in men and women of various health statuses and ages.”
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/tribulus-terrestris#TOC_TITLE_HDR_4
-
I'm recommending a specific brand in the Tribulus Terestris (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3371.msg37418#msg37418) thread.
I have good experience with it as part of a stack with other supplements (see my signature).
Note that as demo said, Tribulus does not directly increase testosterone, but it has other effect (also on other hormones like LH apparantely) which help me.
Testosterone in general: Please also see BoneBroth's thread How to increase Testosterone naturally (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3572.msg37426) as going the prescription route is not feasible (doctor needed) or useful (fertility problems by TRT) for everyone.
In general I think a combination works best (pre-pack niacin and certain anti-histamine, post-pack testosterone booster and anti oxidant and anti inflammatory and adaptogens, lifestyle changes, don't masturbate but only have orgasm with a partner, ...), looking for a single chemical subtance might not work.. My life is now quite good and it only kills me if I masturbate :-/ Which can happen after a few days of abstinence.
-
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/26uSEJmdKN5BRZUHK/giphy.gif)
I have been singing Benadryl’s praises for a long time to induce FORCED DAYTIME SLEEP, which miraculously lets me sleep through some of the worst initial POIS symptoms.
I use Benadryl as an adjunct to my TRT protocol, described above.
But you should be aware of some risks, e.g.,
Benadryl’s increased dementia risk is
reported in this Harvard Medical School article:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-drugs-like-benadryl-linked-increased-dementia-risk-201501287667
If I’m reading the above correctly, Claritin might be a better choice.
Right now, it’s 5:30am Saturday. I’m at POIS onset (“Day Zero”), and I just took an experimental 1,000 milligrams of Extra Strength Tylenol instead of Benadryl for POIS-onset-sleep-induction.
(https://i.gifer.com/I7G9.gif)
Plus I just took the POIS-onset-TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy) of 8mg - - a high dose for me.
TRT is not a recommendation or endorsement for other POIS sufferers. I am only reporting my own personal experiments & experiences. TRT has risks.
Wish me luck with Tylenol!! (That’s as scientific as I get this morning! ;D ;D )
-
...going the prescription [TRT] route is not feasible (doctor needed) or useful (fertility problems by TRT) for everyone.
berlin1984, thanks for pointing that out so succinctly!
-
I heard before that tylenol can lower your glutathione levels so be careful.
-
You could try Nitroglycerin demo, just once, see if you will get the same response as Testosterone:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3551.msg38085#msg38085
Edit: The nitroglycerin may synergize with TRT.
-
Iwillbeatthis, and Muon, thank you!
-
Wish me luck with Tylenol!! (That’s as scientific as I get this morning! ;D ;D
It worked!! But I’m also listening to Iwillbeatthis & Muon.
-
What worked the Tylenol?
Btw have you tried Nebivolol demo?
"I have done some research, and Nebivolol seems to be the one that has less side effects (it does not cause erectile dysfunction). It is as effective as Metoprolol. I think Demografx is taking metoprolol, so he can tell us if it's helping. I recommended him to switch to Nebivolol." Ref (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg364813#msg364813)
-
What worked the Tylenol?
Yes! For early-POIS sleep induction.
Btw have you tried Nebivolol demo?
No. I’ll read up on your research. Thanks, Muon!
-
I think Demografx is taking metoprolol, so he can tell us if it's helping.
My cardiologist switched me to
• Carvedilol +
• Spironolactone +
• Amlodipine Besylate
-
I recommended [to Demografx] to switch to Nebivolol.
Muon, I sincerely appreciate the recommendation, but I would kindly remind you that our forum rule is that we do not make medical recommendations here. Even if someone in our forum is an MD, this is only between a patient and his/her own doctor. Better to say, “ask your doctor what s/he thinks of Rx - - -.
Many thanks for understanding!
-
Would love to go down this route but my doctor said let's start from scratch, let's put you on anti depressants lol ffs round and round the garden like a teddy bear
-
Would love to go down this route but my doctor said let's start from scratch, let's put you on anti depressants lol ffs round and round the garden like a teddy bear
Typical NHS doctors I assume, don't bother waste your time they are useless, either find a good specialist on the NHS or a good private specialist who knows about the areas related to POIS. But really GPS don't know anything and love to hand out antidepressants for everything like they are candy. Before sertraline I mainly just had issues in POIS, after sertraline usage I had chronic issues from food reactions to chronic brain fog, speech problems etc
-
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/26uSEJmdKN5BRZUHK/giphy.gif)
I have been singing Benadryl’s praises for a long time to induce FORCED DAYTIME SLEEP, which miraculously lets me sleep through some of the worst initial POIS symptoms.
But you should be aware of some risks, e.g.,
Benadryl’s increased dementia risk
in this Harvard Medical School article:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-drugs-like-benadryl-linked-increased-dementia-risk-201501287667
After years of use/abuse, I’m now trying to
GET OFF BENADRYL.
Bad cognitive side effects...getting worse!
-
Cross-posted from
Vasodilatory for pois related tiny vessels spasm
https://tinyurl.com/ybqaktqu
Testosterone can increase dopamine via Nitric Oxide. Low T is a risk factor for endothelial dysfunction...
-
After years of use/abuse, I’m now trying to
GET OFF BENADRYL.
Bad cognitive side effects...getting worse!
Today is POIS Day Zero (POIS onset), and I didn’t take my usual dose of Benadryl to knock myself out to avoid experiencing early POIS symptoms. I simply was able to go back to sleep, wake up late, then
took 8mg TRT (high experimental dose) to counter early-POIS testosterone drop.
So far, so good! :)
-
Today is POIS Day Zero (POIS onset), and I didn’t take my usual dose of Benadryl to knock myself out to avoid experiencing early POIS symptoms. I simply
took 8mg TRT (high experimental dose testosterone patches) to counter early-POIS testosterone drop.
Instead of Benadryl I took 1,000mg of:
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-23-2017/JQ1jWh.gif)
So far, so good! :)
This is NOT my endorsement or recommendation for anyone else with POIS to try! A good POIS treatment is between you and a trusted doctor. My preferred treatment can be unacceptably risky for many POISers.
-
Today is POIS Day Zero (POIS onset), and I didn’t take my usual dose of Benadryl to knock myself out to avoid experiencing early POIS symptoms. I simply
took 8mg TRT (high experimental dose testosterone patches) to counter early-POIS testosterone drop.
Instead of Benadryl I took 1,000mg of:
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-23-2017/JQ1jWh.gif)
So far, so good! :)
This is NOT my endorsement or recommendation for anyone else with POIS to try! A good POIS treatment is between you and a trusted doctor. My preferred treatment can be unacceptably risky for many POISers.
Extra daytime SLEEP is still a great aid in POIS-healing for me. And Extra Strength Tylenol helped to facilitate that today. Better than Benadryl: Tylenol didn’t make me groggy!
-
Today is POIS Day Zero (POIS onset), and I didn’t take my usual dose of Benadryl to knock myself out to avoid experiencing early POIS symptoms. I simply
took 8mg TRT (high experimental dose testosterone patches) to counter early-POIS testosterone drop.
Instead of Benadryl I took 1,000mg of:
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-23-2017/JQ1jWh.gif)
So far, so good! :)
This is NOT my endorsement or recommendation for anyone else with POIS to try! A good POIS treatment is between you and a trusted doctor. My preferred treatment can be unacceptably risky for many POISers.
Extra daytime SLEEP is still a great aid in POIS-healing for me. And Extra Strength Tylenol helped to facilitate that today. Better than Benadryl: Tylenol didn’t make me groggy!
what is the sleeping aid in tylenol
-
No idea, CP2. But I think if there’s no pain to be treated, Tylenol then works that way. At least it does for me.
-
CP2, I googled it and saw this:
“Does Extra Strength Tylenol help you sleep?”
TYLENOL® PM Extra Strength Liquid is a pain reliever and sleep aid that helps you fall asleep fast for a better night's sleep. Provides 1,000 mg of acetaminophen & 50 mg of diphenhydramine HCI.
I noticed there’s diphenhydramine in this product, which is the main ingredient in Benadryl. I don’t take the PM product, so I am only getting the acetaminophen, which I assume has some sleep-aid benefit. For me. Again, it works that way for me, but others might not have the same result as mine.
-
CP2, from a little more of my googling:
“Acetaminophen helps to reduce fever and/or mild to moderate pain (such as headache, backache, aches/pains due to muscle strain, cold, or flu). The antihistamine in this product may cause drowsiness, and therefore it can also be used as a nighttime sleep aid.”
[italics mine]
-
From tuning the brain:
Dynorphin antagonists already exist in the form of acetaminophen and mu-opioid agonists (Sandrini M et al., 2001), but they are hardly panaceas. High doses of acetaminophen raise brain 5-HT levels and inhibit the 5HT2A receptor (Srikiatkhachorn A et al., 1999). Acetaminophen is also a COX-3 antagonist.
-
Thanks, Muon
-
Cross-posted from Free Flow Discussion
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=426.2325
My physical POIS symptoms are easier to describe than my cognitive POIS symptoms.
My physical symptoms: extreme exhaustion, dry fingertips
My cognitive symptoms:
the first day is usually the worst. My creative juices dry up. Nothing is exciting. I’m depressed, but in a way that’s difficult to describe. My emotions are flat. My decent sense of humor and my memory, concentration and my ability to smile, to appreciate beauty go right out the window. And the surreal symptom that’s most difficult to describe:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000246325434/c9d18272ca2d134adeddb94e89318078_400x400.jpeg)
Just for clarification: Is this [your set of cognitive POIS symptoms] with or without your TRT usage? :-)
Both. With TRT/daytime sleep aids, symptoms are drastically reduced. From suffering POIS agony for 4 days pre-TRT, to as little as hours today.
Pre-TRT, POIS symptom intensity was also far greater.
berlin1984, thanks, great question.
This is NOT my endorsement or recommendation for anyone else with POIS to try TRT! A good POIS treatment is between you and a trusted doctor. My preferred treatment can be unacceptably risky for many POISers.
-
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71m+dyIrj8L._AC_SX425_.jpg)
I just saw this on an “impressive” looking
TV ad. Anyone know if this is potentially useful?
I’m sure it’s weak compared to TRT.
-
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71m+dyIrj8L._AC_SX425_.jpg)
I just saw this on an “impressive” looking
TV ad. Anyone know if this is potentially useful?
This is the ingredient list: (see attachment)
All ingredients were mentioned already on the forum. I would say it's a good combo, but nothing new or magic.
The fenugreek extract method used seems to be optimized "for sexual function and hormones". (https://www.nutritionaloutlook.com/view/gencors-fenugreek-extract-granted-patent-supporting-sexual-function-and-hormones)
I would say this one plus Ashwagandha and eating more protein would be a good try for POISers who are totally new to supplementing. (Don't use it daily, use it maybe as pre-pack and post-pack).
EDIT: For the record, my Fenugreek extract says "seed extract with 50% Saponins"
-
Thanks, berlin1984, for your review of Nugenix.
-
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/26uSEJmdKN5BRZUHK/giphy.gif)
I have been singing Benadryl’s praises for a long time to induce FORCED DAYTIME SLEEP, which miraculously lets me sleep through some of the worst initial POIS symptoms.
But you should be aware of some risks, e.g.,
Benadryl’s increased dementia risk
in this Harvard Medical School article:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-drugs-like-benadryl-linked-increased-dementia-risk-201501287667
After years of use/abuse, I’m now trying to
GET OFF BENADRYL.
Bad cognitive side effects...getting worse!
Sigh...I just took 50mg. Can’t seem to break the habit of taking this very effective
early-POIS-onset sleep-inducer (it’s now Thursday 11:28am).
Wish me luck!
;D ;D ;D
zzzzzzzzzzzzz
-
I'm a frequent leg-crosser, and when I think about it, that might not be so good for testosterone production. Please do my man-spread-poll here! (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3730.0)
-
Testosterone serum 303 264-916 ng/dl
Free Testosterone 18.2 8.7-25.1 pg/ml
My testosterone is on the lower side of normal, doctor is going to let me try testosterone.
-
Testosterone serum 303 264-916 ng/dl
Free Testosterone 18.2 8.7-25.1 pg/ml
My testosterone is on the lower side of normal, doctor is going to let me try testosterone.
Good luck, CP2!
-
My last test shows low testosterone. My feeling is it stems from too many POIS episodes recently, but my new endocrinologist disagrees that testosterone drops after O.
Does anyone have a source to cite that testosterone does in fact drop after sex?
Also, my adrenal glands are producing way too much aldosterone hormone, causing high blood pressure and possibly affecting testosterone. Surgery not recommended at my age so will try a sprironalactone-alternative, but I’m not thrilled because I fainted several times with spironalactone. Endocrinologist doesn’t like my increasing testosterone when POIS strikes, but is referring me to a urologist for a 2nd POIS opinion for increasing TRT when POIS begins. I mentioned to endo that I’m disappointed with my last 3 urologists’ willingness/ability to understand POIS. “Top” big city urologists, but that no longer impresses me. Members here know more! :)
-
Just slept 17 hours (along with my TRT/Benadryl/Tylenol protocol above) to cut POIS recovery time.
2nd time I’ve done this. Seems to work.
90% POIS-free this way.
-
My last test shows low testosterone. My feeling is it stems from too many POIS episodes recently, but my new endocrinologist disagrees that testosterone drops after O.
Does anyone have a source to cite that testosterone does in fact drop after sex?
Also, my adrenal glands are producing way too much aldosterone hormone, causing high blood pressure and possibly affecting testosterone. Surgery not recommended at my age so will try a sprironalactone-alternative, but I’m not thrilled because I fainted several times with spironalactone. Endocrinologist doesn’t like my increasing testosterone when POIS strikes, but is referring me to a urologist for a 2nd POIS opinion for increasing TRT when POIS begins. I mentioned to endo that I’m disappointed with my last 3 urologists’ willingness/ability to understand POIS. “Top” big city urologists, but that no longer impresses me. Members here know more! :)
I won the battle! My endocrinologist just now approved 3 patches a day (6mg) - - up from 2/day.
Hoping insurance covers.
-
I had two O’s yesterday and was feeling pretty bad when we texted. I think I was mad that I have no will power. I increased the amount of HCG I normally take. I felt pretty good today. About 80%. HCG is the best thing I’ve used to help with the bad effects of POIS.
Better than testosterone
For me
POISers should first check out
the risk factors with HCG!
Ask your doctor
Demo
-
I am one of the firmest believer of Testosterone being reduced after my orgasm, Demo. I have also posted about it before that my testosterone was in a very low state but have managed to lose 20 kilos through Exercise and Diet and have got my testosterone up naturally to a Low Normal state. This has resulted in more manageable POIS episodes for me which are probably 50% reduced in both severity and duration.
I haven't tried TRT due to my age of mid-30s and also trying for kids. So this 50% reduction with just a healthy lifestyle is the best I can hope for now. I am hoping to start a bit more exercising to see if make more difference.
There is also a bit of Chicken and Egg scenario here. Is the Low Testosterone causing POIS or is POIS causing Testosterone to become low ???
-
Great to hear, joelawerence!
-
There is also a bit of Chicken and Egg scenario here. Is the Low Testosterone causing POIS or is POIS causing Testosterone to become low ???
Interesting, joelawerence!
Never thought of it that way.
Demo
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/26uSEJmdKN5BRZUHK/giphy.gif)
With my newfound 30-day supply of TRT patches, I continue my old POIS treatment regimen.
It’s still working for me: today is POIS Day Zero (POIS symptom onset began this morning).
For details, read my recent posts at this Testosterone thread. I have been using this protocol (TRT + Benadryl - note: a Benadryl side effect for me is nightmares for the last 10 years.
Can it work for you? That’s for you and your doctor to explore. We are all different.
This continues to work for me. But...I slept 17 hours - Benadryl-aided - since last night, plus “rested” the rest of today. Sleep for me is extremely effective, but I’m retired, so everyone can’t easily do this. I’m lucky in that respect. But not so lucky in my decades of working!
• I do not exceed Benadryl’s published dose guidelines.
But you should be aware of some risks, e.g.,
Benadryl’s increased dementia risk
in this Harvard Medical School article:
(https://kayahub.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Harvard-Health.png)
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-drugs-like-benadryl-linked-increased-dementia-risk-201501287667
• I work closely under my endocrinologist’s supervision. I recently asked for - and received - an increase in TRT dosage. But only after a new blood test which confirmed my still-low T.
• After many failed attempts, it was only the guidance of this forum’s predecessor, Naked Science Forum/POIS thread, that led me to a successful treatment.
-
(http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2015-07-08-1436368244-6811387-trailsadventure.com.png)
One doctor’s opinion:
Unpacking the Dangers of TRT
(Testosterone Replacement Therapy)
Before approaching testosterone replacement therapy, I also strongly believe men should look into natural ways to increase their testosterone. This begins and ends with losing weight, as we already mentioned, but here are a few more methods to consider.
By Dr. David Samadi 152, Contributor
HuffPost [blog]
https://tinyurl.com/86t9mhuv
-
My feeling of the ups & downs of being...
IN-POIS vs. OUT-OF-POIS
IN-POIS vs. OUT-OF-POIS
IN-POIS vs. OUT-OF-POIS
Repeat above year after year in-and-out-of-POIS...since you were a teenager!
(https://i.gifer.com/3fm.gif)
-
2 cortisone shots to my feet yesterday (pain from metatarsal stress).
Today: shots seem to have helped my POIS?!?!
Could be placebo effect. Will update this when I feel I “know” more.
-
(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
Sleep study last night. As expected (this was my 2nd study), I showed severe sleep apnea
Improved POIS symptom relief (took regular dose of 6mg testosterone & Tylenol PM - - includes 50mg Benadryl - - right before study)
Slept better than in YEARS. Mood lifted. Chronic fatigue lifted as well.
Resisted mask wearing for years. Now ready to wear it!!
-
Hi,
I'm trying to find an endocrinologist who would like to take me (the one I saw basically gave up on the second appointment asking me to see a sexologist and didn't charge me).
I got normal levels of "free testosterone" but didn't get the serum testosterone tested.
I wonder if some of us suffer from POIS not because of a lack of testosterone but because of an issue with androgen receptors.
A study in rats (study (https://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/99250) and sci-hub unlocked version (https://sci-hub.mksa.top/10.1159/000099250#)) showed that sexual activity decreased "androgen receptor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_receptor) density (ARd) in the medial preoptic area (MPOA) and in the ventromedial hypothalamic nucleus (VMH), but not in the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BST)".
So the theory would be that POIS can be the result of two different mechanisms:
A) Patient has a low testosterone level, but still high enough not to provoke symptoms. However, after ejaculation, the androgen receptor density decreases. Low testosterone * low receptor density -> POIS
B) Patient has normal testosterone level but ejaculation decreases the androgen receptor density more than usual. Normal testosterone * very low receptor density -> POIS
Type A) and B) POIS could both be cured by increasing testosterone level (Normal testosterone * low receptor density -> still OK / High testosterone * very low receptor density -> still OK).
-
(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
Sleep study last night. As expected (this was my 2nd study), I showed severe sleep apnea
Improved POIS symptom relief (took regular dose of 6mg testosterone & Tylenol PM - - includes 50mg Benadryl - - right before study)
Slept better than in YEARS. Mood lifted. Chronic fatigue lifted as well.
Resisted mask wearing for years. Now ready to wear it!!
You should compile this info in a personal thread/summary. People are unable to get a proper overview of your case. you could copy and dump it in that thread.
-
You should compile this info in a personal thread/summary. People are unable to get a proper overview of your case. you could copy and dump it in that thread.
This testosterone thread basically tells my story. People have been fine with the overview, simply by skimming it.
Thanks.
-
My most recent testosterone results (last week)
Component Value Reference Range & Units Status
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin 25 11 - 80 nmol/L Final
REFERENCE INTERVAL: Sex Hormone Binding Globulin
Testosterone, LC-MS/MS 187 300 - 720 ng/dL Final
REFERENCE INTERVAL: Testosterone, LC-MS/MS
Testosterone, Free LC-MS/MS 35.6 47.0 - 244.0 pg/mL Final
To convert to pmol/L, multiply pg/mL by 3.47
Note from my old endocrinologist’s office
(who has moved to another city)
Dear Demografx,
I am covering for [the endocrinologist who has left my city] since she is no longer with [our Medical Group]. Your testosterone levels are still low with the increase in dose of the patches [to 6mg/day Androderm]. You might need to change the type of testosterone you are using or increase the dose further. You can discuss this in your upcoming appointment with [my new endocrinologist].
Let me know if any questions.
Sincerely,
Dr. XYZ
-
I'm trying to find an endocrinologist who would like to take me…
I found this once by accident, can’t vouch for it, haven’t tried it but it seems very intriguing and worthwhile to explore (just my opinion)
To chat with an endocrinologist online, their ad states, “Unlimited chats – $5 one-week trial membership. Cancel anytime”
I just went to the endocrinologist site shown below and it lists
Dr. David, MD
Endocrinologist-Chief Resident at NYU
Pearl Wilson, Endocrinologist's Assistant seems to be the one who you begin with
https://tinyurl.com/j23z9jkc
(https://clark.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/dreamstime_m_131794795-e1577982000780.jpg)
*My only question/concern is that I could not google-find a “Dr David at NYU”. Maybe this service only uses his first name? I would ask Pearl Wilson, the first person who responds, about that if you decide to try it. Let me know if you do!
-
The title is a bit misleading: interesting read about new findings about the link between sunlight and testosterone levels
https://www.technologynetworks.com/neuroscience/news/sex-and-sunlight-exposure-to-suns-uv-rays-enhances-romantic-passion-353062
-
Case of post-orgasmic illness syndrome associated with hypogonadism
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/iju5.12184
Thanks for the article, etcosp!
For the last 10 years I’ve been treated for “POIS” with TRT (testosterone replacement therapy).
However, my endocrinologist diagnosis says “hypogonadism”.
After 10 years, I’m still confused: which is which???
My POIS, like most POISers, lasted 3,4 days (prior to TRT).
As far as I know, hypogonadism is a 24/7/365 days/year condition, and is not connected specifically to orgasm in any way.
Maybe a forum expert like Quantum, Limejuice or Berlin can help me understand this better?
-
Case of post-orgasmic illness syndrome associated with hypogonadism
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/iju5.12184 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/iju5.12184)
Thanks for the article, etcosp!
For the last 10 years I’ve been treated for “POIS” with TRT (testosterone replacement therapy).
However, my endocrinologist diagnosis says “hypogonadism”.
After 10 years, I’m still confused: which is which???
My POIS, like most POISers, lasted 3,4 days (prior to TRT).
As far as I know, hypogonadism is a 24/7/365 days/year condition, and is not connected specifically to orgasm in any way.
Maybe a forum expert like Quantum, Limejuice or Berlin can help me understand this better?
Demo, I cannot answer your question, since the causes of POIS are not scientifically known for now. All I can say is that there is the possibility that there is a type of POIS related to hypogonadism, but not all men with hypogonadism have POIS, so there would be something else at play. It is that 'something else' that research has to identify.
-
Dear Demo
Just my finding. I do not know whether it is correct or not.
Testosterone reduces autoimmune diseases and allergic diseases caused by mast cells.
May be its the reason for the relief of your Pois. Research is still going on for using it exclusively for allergic asthma.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/02/testosterone-may-protect-men-from-autoimmune-diseases/
https://www.jaci-inpractice.org/article/S2213-2198(20)30514-6/fulltext
Most of the pois treatment prepacks work largely by blocking the mast cell activaton or histamine release.
Niacin
http://getwellstaywellathome.com/blog/2015/06/seasonal-allergies-and-the-niacin-flush/
Taurine
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28694089
Relief with Antihistamines, flavanoids in fenugreek&garlic, oral corticosteroids ,methylation support,pre-pack with IDO/TDO/NMDAr blockers+ anti-oxidants and gluten free diet etc all point to mast cell activation disorder.
Most of our members get relief with one of the above mentioned ways which also fits with MCAD where everyone has individual triggers and get relief with personalised treatment.
So POIS is most likely to be MCAD triggered by mast cells present in the urinary tract and causing systemic inflammation which many a time crosses blood brain barrier and results in neural inflammation.
-
After 10 years, I’m still confused: which is which??? [hypogonadism vs POIS]
Demo, I cannot answer your question, since the causes of POIS are not scientifically known for now. All I can say is that there is the possibility that there is a type of POIS related to hypogonadism, but not all men with hypogonadism have POIS, so there would be something else at play. It is that 'something else' that research has to identify.
Thanks, Quantum! I feel better now (less foolish) about my confusion.
-
Dear Demo
Just my finding. I do not know whether it is correct or not.
Testosterone reduces autoimmune diseases and allergic diseases caused by mast cells.
May be its the reason for the relief of your Pois. Research is still going on for using it exclusively for allergic asthma.
Many thanks, aswinpras06!
-
Obstructive Sleep Apnea Is Associated With Low Testosterone Levels in Severely Obese Men
(Body Mass Index (BMI) > 35 kg/m2)
low free and total testosterone
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8350060/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28254252
Not sure if this would also apply with lower BMI maybe in lower grade?
-
Obstructive Sleep Apnea Is Associated With Low Testosterone Levels in Severely Obese Men
(Body Mass Index (BMI) > 35 kg/m2)
low free and total testosterone
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8350060/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28254252
Not sure if this would also apply with lower BMI maybe in lower grade?
Berlin, very interesting!
Thanks!
-
Hello. please give me a lot of information why trt might not work at all. I always have pois. I've tried testosterone propionate and in gel form - they don't work at all. I have been taking aromatase blockers, and to no avail (My shbg is high, as is progesterone. I also did not respond to stanozolol and proviron. Proviron may need a lot. I don?t know. I have first degree left testicular varicocele. I want to try Drostanolone
-
The only time I felt better was when I was on female hormones (I am transexual though), had to pause them for more than 1 year because of medical processing. I am also castrated via burdizzo.
-
Hello. please give me a lot of information why trt might not work at all. I always have pois. I've tried testosterone propionate and in gel form - they don't work at all. I have been taking aromatase blockers, and to no avail (My shbg is high, as is progesterone. I also did not respond to stanozolol and proviron. Proviron may need a lot. I don?t know. I have first degree left testicular varicocele. I want to try Drostanolone
You could try some antiprogestins as well. Diosgenin (wild yam root, maca and fenugreek) and licorice may have potent antiprogestin effects. Keep in mind that they may still exert some progesterone-like effects (e.g. sigma 1 receptor). These all help me, however I don't know anything about my actual hormone levels.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3669.20
(bottom of the page)
Another testosterone booster called Tongkat Ali also helps me somewhat. The proposed mechanism of Tongkat Ali is actually based on SHBG. By the activation of the CYP17 enzyme it may also lower progesterone.
Eurycoma contains a group of small peptides referred to as "eurypeptides" that are known to have effects in improving energy status and sex drive in studies of rodents. The effects of tongkat ali in restoring normal testosterone levels appears to be less due to actually "stimulating" testosterone synthesis, but rather by increasing the release rate of "free" testosterone from its binding hormone, sex-hormone-binding-globulin (SHBG). In this way, eurycoma may be considered not so much a testosterone "booster" (such as an anabolic steroid), but rather a "maintainer" of normal testosterone levels and a "restorer" of normal testosterone levels (from "low" back "up" to normal ranges).
The mechanism of action of the bioactive complex polypeptides ("eurypeptides" with 36 amino acids) has been shown to activate the CYP17 enzyme (17 alpha-hydroxylase and 17,20 lyase) to enhance the metabolism of pregnenolone and progesterone to yield more DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone) and androstenedione, respectively.
In one trial of endurance cyclists cortisol levels were 32% lower and testosterone levels were 16% higher in supplemented subjects compared to placebo, indicating a more favorable biochemical profile for promoting an "anabolic" hormone state.
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-10-28?crsi=662497356&cicada_org_src=healthwebmagazine.com&cicada_org_mdm=direct
-
Greetings to rollercoaster!
;D ;D
(https://i.gifer.com/3fm.gif)
-
New endocrinologist now. Previous doc moved to another city.
My testosterone (including free T) levels have been low, so I have now been increased the prescription to 8mg/day (365 days/year).
I am now at double the TRT dose I started with 11 years ago.
Since my old open heart surgery, I was concerned about the possibility of heart inflammation with increasing the dose, but my new endocrinologist says that my hemoglobin count is well within the desired range.
-
Thanks for the update Demo. I wish you good luck with the new prescription. Please let us know if you notice any increased benefits.
-
Thank you, drop 247!
I will.
-
(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
Sleep study last night [July 2, 2021].
As expected (this was my 2nd study), I showed
severe sleep apnea
Improved POIS symptom relief (took regular dose of 6mg testosterone & Tylenol PM - - includes 50mg Benadryl - - right before study)
Slept better than in YEARS. Mood lifted. Chronic fatigue lifted as well.
Resisted mask wearing for years. Now ready to wear it!!
Last night [October 11, 2021] was my
first night using a CPAP device at home - - before last night it was only done using CPAP at an overnight medical laboratory sleep study.
In spite of solid medical advice & dire warnings that - - considering my severe condition of
sleep apnea - - I could die without CPAP breathing assistance, I still resisted it for the last 5 years (strictly a mental/psychological adjustment!)
I witnessed - - once again - - a dramatic improvement in my current POIS symptoms (above and beyond my TRT/Benadryl/Tylenol routine).
Placebo effect? Time will tell.
-
You are consistently using the sleeping mask now, right? Then I'd say that should help too :)
-
You are consistently using the sleeping mask now, right? Then I'd say that should help too :)
Thanks, Berlin! I forgot to mention that!!
Yes, last night was my 4th successful night with the Hannibal Lecter mask!!
;D ;D
-
Thanks for the [testosterone] update Demo. I wish you good luck with the new prescription. Please let us know if you notice any increased [POIS] benefits.
Feeling better!
But it might be too soon to tell. So far, it’s either the 33-1/3% increase in Androderm TRT Rx, or…
:) the-vaccine-that-we-don’t-talk-about :)
Or the sleeping mask!
Or both all 3!
THANKS BERLIN!!
The most noticeable improvement is in my POIS-recovery time, the refractory period. I’m recouping more quickly.
Quantum, I’m happy to edit the above ;D
-
Thanks for the [testosterone] update Demo. I wish you good luck with the new prescription. Please let us know if you notice any increased [POIS] benefits.
Feeling better!
But it might be too soon to tell. So far, it’s either the 33-1/3% increase in Androderm TRT Rx, or…
:) the-vaccine-that-we-don’t-talk-about :)
Or the sleeping mask!
Or both all 3!
THANKS BERLIN!!
The most noticeable improvement is in my POIS-recovery time, the refractory period. I’m recouping more quickly.
drop247, current POIS episode: symptoms are milder, but not as good as the last episode.
-
I’m writing this from the hospital. Admitted to ER last night for “observation for ‘dizziness’ “, hope to be released soon…
Discharged yesterday.
I’m almost embarrassed to be writing this, but what landed me in the hospital ER (emergency room)?
High doses of Benadryl, Tylenol, & Afrin caused severe dizziness & loss-of-balance reaction. I almost fell 3-4 times prior to calling my primary care physician.
But I owe it to the forum to get over my personal embarrassment in order to issue a WARNING to
everyone who has been following my protocol at this Testosterone topic/thread!
At least 15 hospital-and-personal doctors and nurses and medical technicians were involved in my case. They all said the same thing: if you Google and/or follow the drug manufacturers’ recommendations for Benadryl, Tylenol, and Afrin, THE STATED MAXIMUM DOSAGES ARE WAY TOO HIGH - - AND DANGEROUS - - FOR MANY PEOPLE!
This will not necessarily be true for everyone, but it certainly seems true for my age group (I’m age 75), according to many, many similar reports (complaints!) that the hospital doctors have seen from “ENT” physicians. Ear, Nose, Throat.
Another complicating factor in my case: history of cardiac artery disease, with 5-way bypass open heart surgery about 10 years ago.
So, everyone please be very careful if you are interested in following my POIS protocol. I also stopped temporarily my TRT increase regimen, even though it’s been approved by my new endocrinologist…because I experienced severe itching. Tonight I’m back to my lower dose of 6mg Androderm patch nightly.
I have decided to quit Benadryl & Afrin (Afrin is not for my POIS protocol) permanently! Not one medical practitioner had anything good to say about them. I also pointed out to the hospital medicos (and to this forum in previous posts) that Harvard Medical School studied Benadryl and found a link to dementia.
Stay safe, everyone!
-
I think this is worth re-posting.
With minor edits.
As they say, “it can’t hurt.”
I’m writing this from the hospital. Admitted to ER last night for “observation for ‘dizziness’ “, hope to be released soon…
Discharged yesterday.
I’m almost embarrassed to be writing this, but what landed me in the hospital ER (emergency room)?
High doses of Benadryl, Tylenol, & Afrin caused severe dizziness & loss-of-balance reaction. I almost fell 3-4 times prior to calling my primary care physician. His triage nurse told me to get to the ER ASAP.
But I owe it to the forum to get over my personal embarrassment in order to issue a WARNING to
everyone who has been following my protocol at this Testosterone topic/thread!
At least 15 hospital-and-personal doctors and nurses and medical technicians were involved in my case. They all said the same thing: if you Google and/or follow the drug manufacturers’ recommendations for Benadryl, Tylenol, and Afrin, THE STATED MAXIMUM DOSAGES ARE WAY TOO HIGH - - AND DANGEROUS - - FOR MANY PEOPLE!
This will not necessarily be true for everyone, but it certainly seems true for my age group (I’m age 75), according to many, many similar reports (complaints!) that the hospital doctors have seen from “ENT” physicians. Ear, Nose, Throat.
Another complicating factor in my case: history of cardiac artery disease, with 5-way bypass open heart surgery about 10 years ago.
So, everyone please be very careful if you are interested in following my POIS protocol. I also stopped temporarily my TRT increase regimen, even though it’s been approved by my new endocrinologist…because I experienced severe itching. Tonight I’m back to my lower dose of 6mg Androderm patches nightly.
After a lifetime of (over)use I have decided to quit Benadryl & Afrin (Afrin is not for my POIS protocol) permanently! Not one medical practitioner had anything good to say about them. I also pointed out to the hospital medicos (and to this forum in previous posts) that Harvard Medical School studied Benadryl and found a link to dementia.
https://tinyurl.com/54nbzaen
post-edit: With multiple-doctor consultation, I’m now taking Flonase (a once twice daily steroid) & a saline nasal spray (as needed)
Stay safe, everyone!
-
(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
Sleep study last night [July 2, 2021].
As expected (this was my 2nd study), I showed
severe sleep apnea
Improved POIS symptom relief (took regular dose of 6mg testosterone & Tylenol PM - - includes 50mg Benadryl - - right before study)
Slept better than in YEARS. Mood lifted. Chronic fatigue lifted as well.
Resisted mask wearing for years. Now ready to wear it!!
Last night [October 11, 2021] was my
first night using a CPAP device at home - - before last night it was only done using CPAP at an overnight medical laboratory sleep study.
In spite of solid medical advice & dire warnings that - - considering my severe condition of
sleep apnea - - I could die or suffer a stroke without CPAP breathing assistance, I still resisted it for the last 5 years (strictly a mental/psychological adjustment!)
I also witnessed - - once again - - a dramatic improvement in my current POIS symptoms (above and beyond my TRT/Benadryl/Tylenol routine).
Placebo effect? Time will tell.
It’s still working!
(Also resumed today my endocrinologist-approved higher dose TRT)
Thanks, Berlin1984 for your excellent advice about striking out the accurately-maligned frequent/heavy use Benadryl in all my posts! Starting here!
-
Testosterone decreases sharply after ejaculation, and it takes 2 to 3 days to rise up again…
Thank you! This validates my recent hypothesis that increasing my testosterone treatment to 16mg immediately at POIS onset offsets this sharp decrease. This is double my normal, every day dose. My treatment calls for testosterone patches applied every day, 365 days/year.
It works! (For me)
-
(https://reliefseeker.com/storage/media-manager/uploads/provider/HELombRYdYG7iZLPxWZuafxAfLOO6ZXs7eTqcdzj.png)
Has anyone tried this service? I’m thinking of calling them for
online endocrinology advice to supplement my periodic visits with my regular endocrinologist. My regular endo doesn’t understand POIS very well, so I feel that 2-endos-are-better-than-one! :)
Between my primary care physician, cardiologist, and endocrinologist, I’d like to get a better handle on how much testosterone (for POIS) is ***safe*** (I’m 75 years young - - with cardiac issues).
JustAnswer Endocrinology:
https://tinyurl.com/2p8seujy
I just texted them ($5). Very impressive beginning with a medical advisor texting me to clarify my question for the endocrinologist.
First thing I see is a “push” to upgrade me to a telephone call with the doctor for $50. I declined.
Then the doctor - - who only gives me his first name for ‘security reasons’ (“Dr. Adeel”) - - texted me with a “rushed” answer to my question. He gave me the starting dose of 4mg Androderm patch TRT/day. That was *NOT* my question, I told him so, and he got frustrated with 1) my asking for his surname & credentials and 2) my insisting on an answer to my REAL question.
He then disappeared. :)
So I asked for and got a refund for the $5.
Doctor #2 then texts me and asks me an intelligent follow up question. He is NOT an endocrinologist, but “internal medicine, deals with hypogonadism (my official diagnosis - - not POIS) on a daily basis.”
When I question his name (“The Good Dr.”) and credentials and I said I was told I’d be talking to an *Endocrinologist*, he also promptly disappeared!
I followed up with Mr. Jeff Cavellini, their Customer Service guy, and he sent me a “canned” response to my concerns.
I am not suggesting that JustAnswer is useless, but be very prepared, diligent and insistent on what you want.
Not what they want!
(https://torontopubliclibrary.typepad.com/.a/6a00e5509ea6a18834022ad3a8be18200b-pi)
-
(https://reliefseeker.com/storage/media-manager/uploads/provider/HELombRYdYG7iZLPxWZuafxAfLOO6ZXs7eTqcdzj.png)
Has anyone tried this service? I’m thinking of calling them for
online endocrinology advice to supplement my periodic visits with my regular endocrinologist. My regular endo doesn’t understand POIS very well, so I feel that 2-endos-are-better-than-one! :)
Between my primary care physician, cardiologist, and endocrinologist, I’d like to get a better handle on how much testosterone (for POIS) is ***safe*** (I’m 75 years young - - with cardiac issues).
JustAnswer Endocrinology:
https://tinyurl.com/2p8seujy (https://tinyurl.com/2p8seujy)
I just texted them ($5). Very impressive beginning with a medical advisor texting me to clarify my question for the endocrinologist.
First thing I see is a “push” to upgrade me to a telephone call with the doctor for $50. I declined.
Then the doctor - - who only gives me his first name for ‘security reasons’ (“Dr. Adeel”) - - texted me with a “rushed” answer to my question. He gave me the starting dose of 4mg Androderm patch TRT/day. That was *NOT* my question, I told him so, and he got frustrated with 1) my asking for his surname & credentials and 2) my insisting on an answer to my REAL question.
He then disappeared. :)
So I asked for and got a refund for the $5.
Doctor #2 then texts me and asks me an intelligent follow up question. He is NOT an endocrinologist, but “internal medicine, deals with hypogonadism (my official diagnosis - - not POIS) on a daily basis.”
When I question his name (“The Good Dr.”) and credentials and I said I was told I’d be talking to an *Endocrinologist*, he also promptly disappeared!
I followed up with Mr. Jeff Cavellini, their Customer Service guy, and he sent me a “canned” response to my concerns.
I am not suggesting that JustAnswer is useless, but be very prepared, diligent and insistent on what you want.
Not what they want!
Sounds like a scam to me... I would say that if a Doctor can charge you 100$ or 250$ for a short consultation, why would he lose his time talking to you on the phone for 50$ ? Maybe a no-life Doctor....or a scammer...
You would receive a better answer by asking the pharmacist who fills your T script ( at least you know he is a real health professional)
-
(https://reliefseeker.com/storage/media-manager/uploads/provider/HELombRYdYG7iZLPxWZuafxAfLOO6ZXs7eTqcdzj.png)
Sounds like a scam to me... I would say that if a Doctor can charge you 100$ or 250$ for a short consultation, why would he lose his time talking to you on the phone for 50$ ? Maybe a no-life Doctor....or a scammer...
You would receive a better answer by asking the pharmacist who fills your T script ( at least you know he is a real health professional)
Thanks Quantum, I think the scam is not in the $50. My impression is that they want to push the patient into a $100 to $250 call. With a legit physician.
They’re just not super-forthcoming about it.
They “cut you off” with quick answers, quickly switching doctors (lower to higher sophistication) and probably nurse practitioners, too, hoping you’ll “keep the meter running” so you can get your question(s) answered.
They do list prestigious medical center physicians.
And I think your pharmacist idea is excellent! I was just curious about these guys.
-
almost all of the blood test of POISer have no any problems----vitamin mineral or hormone
How many POISer blood test results have you seen for their free testosterone levels?
-
Yea, our test thread is still too thin to draw any conclutions. It lacks many hormonal substances to compare with.
-
Yea, our test thread is still too thin to draw any conclutions. It lacks many hormonal substances to compare with.
Thank you, BoneBroth
-
(https://reliefseeker.com/storage/media-manager/uploads/provider/HELombRYdYG7iZLPxWZuafxAfLOO6ZXs7eTqcdzj.png)
https://tinyurl.com/545suunp
Sounds like a scam to me…why would [a doctor] lose his time talking to you on the phone for $50 ?
Maybe a no-life Doctor....or a scammer...
Above emphasis [bold type] is mine - Demo
Quantum:…or maybe a newbie, retired or rural doctor
Online “visits” can easily be transacted by a newbie/rural/retired doc. But it’s not too easy for those-type doctors to get $100 - $250 appointments - - as you well described in your earlier post - - especially in person. And this service does seem very able to find the more expensive GP’s & specialists as well.
Scam? I don’t think so. But perhaps a very clever marketer. And perhaps useful for some people, not all.
JustAnswer has a consumer rating of 4.3 stars from 2,822 reviews indicating that most customers are generally satisfied with their purchases. Consumers satisfied with JustAnswer most frequently mention great service, quick response and legal advice. JustAnswer ranks 1st among Question And Answer sites.
Bold emphasis - - directly above - - is from sitejabber.com website - Demo
Green emphasis is mine - Demo
-
(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
Sleep study last night [July 2, 2021].
As expected (this was my 2nd study), I showed
severe sleep apnea
Improved POIS symptom relief (took regular dose of 6mg testosterone & Tylenol PM - - includes 50mg Benadryl - - right before study)
Slept better than in YEARS. Mood lifted. Chronic fatigue lifted as well.
Resisted mask wearing for years. Now ready to wear it!!
Last night [October 11, 2021] was my
first night using a CPAP device at home - - before last night it was only done using CPAP at an overnight medical laboratory sleep study.
In spite of solid medical advice & dire warnings that - - considering my severe condition of
sleep apnea - - I could die or suffer a stroke without CPAP breathing assistance, I still resisted it for the last 5 years (strictly a mental/psychological adjustment!)
I also witnessed - - once again - - a dramatic improvement in my current POIS symptoms (above and beyond my TRT/Benadryl/Tylenol routine).
Placebo effect? Time will tell.
It’s still working!
(Also resumed today my endocrinologist-approved higher dose TRT)
Thanks, Berlin1984 for your excellent advice about striking out the accurately-maligned frequent/heavy use Benadryl in all my posts! Starting here!
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
With my newfound 30-day supply of TRT patches, I continue my old POIS treatment regimen.
It’s still working for me: today is POIS Day Zero (POIS symptom onset began this morning).
For details, read my recent posts at this Testosterone thread. I have been using this protocol (TRT + Benadryl - note: a Benadryl side effect for me is nightmares for the last 10 years.
Can it work for you? That’s for you and your doctor to explore. We are all different.
This continues to work for me. But...I slept 17 hours - Benadryl-aided - since last night, plus “rested” the rest of today. Sleep for me is extremely effective, but I’m retired, so everyone can’t easily do this. I’m lucky in that respect. But not so lucky in my decades of working!
• I do not exceed Benadryl’s published dose guidelines.
But you should be aware of some risks, e.g.,
Benadryl’s increased dementia risk
in this Harvard Medical School article:
(https://kayahub.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Harvard-Health.png)
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-drugs-like-benadryl-linked-increased-dementia-risk-201501287667
• I work closely under my endocrinologist’s supervision. I recently asked for - and received - an increase in TRT dosage. But only after a new blood test which confirmed my still-low T.
• After many failed attempts, it was only the guidance of this forum’s predecessor, Naked Science Forum/POIS thread, that led me to a successful treatment.
It’s still working!
(For the last 11 years)
It’s NOT working 100%, but still, I’m down from a lifetime (40+ years!!) of:
• 4 days’ POIS agony
to
• 1 day POIS - - usually mild, but if my current POIS episode is too close in timing to the previous time’s POIS, it’s……not so great a day :)
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
Word of caution: taking testosterone can possibly make you infertile.
In my case, my sperm count went to
0.00!
I have grown children, so I’m ok. But if you’re planning on having children, please consult your doctor (I prefer endocrinologists).
One of my endocrinologists said there might be a way to reverse the infertility, but I wasn’t interested (I’m 75 now), so I didn’t pay close attention to the protocol.
Best wishes, everyone, for 2022!
Demo
-
Testosterone Protects Against Severe Influenza by Reducing the Pro-Inflammatory Cytokine Response in the Murine Lung
Influenza A virus pathogenesis may differ between men and women. The 2009 H1N1 influenza pandemic resulted in more documented hospitalizations in women compared to men. In this study, we analyzed the impact of male sex hormones on pandemic 2009 H1N1 influenza A virus disease outcome. In a murine infection model, we could mimic the clinical findings with female mice undergoing severe and even fatal 2009 H1N1 influenza compared to male mice. Treatment of female mice with testosterone could rescue the majority of mice from lethal influenza. Improved disease outcome in testosterone treated female mice upon 2009 H1N1 influenza A virus infection did not affect virus titers in the lung compared to carrier-treated females. However, reduction in IL-1β cytokine expression levels strongly correlated with reduced lung damage and improved influenza disease outcome in female mice upon testosterone treatment. In contrast, influenza disease outcome was not affected between castrated male mice and non-castrated controls. Here, influenza infection resulted in reduction of testosterone expression in male mice. These findings show that testosterone has protective functions on the influenza infection course. However, 2009 H1N1 influenza viruses seem to have evolved yet unknown mechanisms to reduce testosterone expression in males. These data will support future antiviral strategies to treat influenza taking sex-dependent immunopathologies into consideration.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.00697/full
-
Testosterone Protects Against Severe Influenza by Reducing the Pro-Inflammatory Cytokine Response in the Murine Lung…..[cont’d]
Interesting.
Thanks, mike_sweden!
-
almost all of the blood test of POISer have no any problems----vitamin mineral or hormone
How many POISer blood test results have you seen for their free testosterone levels?
five POISers in China and some POISers in this forum and some POISers in research paper, all of them are normal. Although one man benefit from HCG, his free testosterone is at the lower limit so it is also normal.
-
almost all of the blood test of POISer have no any problems----vitamin mineral or hormone
How many POISer blood test results have you seen for their free testosterone levels?
five POISers in China
Only 5 POISers from a population of
***1.402 billion*** is indicative of conclusive evidence?
and some POISers in this forum
show me their FREE testosterone results! I never saw this.
and some POISers in research paper,
again, please show me their FREE testosterone results.
all of them are normal. Although one man benefit from HCG, his free testosterone is at the lower limit so it is also normal.
I am quite unconvinced!
-
almost all of the blood test of POISer have no any problems----vitamin mineral or hormone
How many POISer blood test results have you seen for their free testosterone levels?
Below: plain text - - Lihua
bold text - - Demografx
five POISers in China
Only 5 POISers from a population of
***1.402 billion*** is indicative of conclusive evidence?
and some POISers in this forum
show me their FREE testosterone results! I never saw this.
and some POISers in research paper,
again, please show me their FREE testosterone results.
all of them are normal. Although one man benefit from HCG, his free testosterone is at the lower limit so it is also normal.
I am quite unconvinced!
1. Only 5 POISers saw my doctor-------it DOESN'T mean only 5 POISers in China----maybe they do not know POIS or they are not interested in the treatment. ALL of their testosterone are in normal range--------I have seen all the five test results, if you do not believe, I have no other ways.
2. I am sorry that in the case that HCG cured the POIS, the free T is lower than normal------I know the difference between free T and total T just now. My sorry. :) So it means that total T in the five POISers are normal but free T is uncertain because we did not test our free T.
-
…various paper and people have shown that
it is almost impossible that POIS is caused by endocrine problems…
emphasis above (bold) is mine -Demo
Only 5 POISers saw my doctor------- if you do not believe, I have no other ways.
Lihua, I believe you!
But it is
O N L Y 5 people
out of a Chinese population of
*****1+ billion people!*****
Lihua, don’t you believe in sampling error and statistical significance?
Sorry, but I have no more to say on the subject. Even our PhD Research Team believe hormones are important to study for POIS!
Please look once again at my post from our POIS Research Team about hormones and POIS.
Lihua, your assumptions about the impact of hormones on POIS are incorrect and based on very flimsy data.
My firm basis comes from my own very direct experience - - successfully treating my own POIS with testosterone - - plus moderating this forum for the last 15 years.
And working with professional sex researchers.
From our POIS Study 2022
Research Director:
”I will say that hormones influence a great many factors that may be relevant to POIS symptoms, including the inflammatory system and the nervous system. So it’s reasonable to think an endocrinologist would be a useful part of the treatment team for POIS.”
OUR POIS 2022 NORD RESEARCH STUDY
“For the study of post-orgasmic illness syndrome, with funding from POISCenter.com:
Tierney Lorenz, Ph.D., University of Nebraska-Lincoln (Lincoln, NE); Autonomic, endocrine, and immune mediators of post-orgasmic illness syndrome”
-
Even if we don't have serum hormone alterations, it can't be excluded that POIS is a hormonal issue. Intracrinology is an emerging scientific approach and is more likely to appropriately address issues related to POIS.
This distinct mechanism of androgen precursor activation, action and inactivation in peripheral androgen-target cells was first termed intracrinology by Labrie et al. and is linked to classical genomic androgen signalling in both men and women.
After cellular influx, an androgen precursor steroid is enzymatically activated by cell-specific enzymes and pathways before exerting its effect via the AR. Active androgens are subsequently inactivated enzymatically prior to being released from the cell for excretion. This concept of hormone action is termed "intracrinology" and is distinct from the classical concept of "endocrinology" with a designated gland secreting active hormones into circulation exerting direct effects on receptors in target tissues.
As intracrine androgen activation takes place in the cell and may start with the uptake of an androgen precursor and end with the efflux of an inactive androgen metabolite, circulating levels of active androgens are not a valid reflection of total body androgen action. The assessment of circulating precursors in particular (androstenedione) A4 including 11-oxygenated C19 steroids or androgen metabolites (androsterone) AST-glucuronide, 3a-adiol-3-glucuronide and 3a-adiol-17-glucuronide are thus recommended to assess androgen burden.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0303720717304525
Also in the same review:
The presence of SRD5A1 allows for the local production of DHT, with the 5a-dione pathway bypassing T being the preferred route. Acne vulgaris and androgenic alopecia are associated with local androgen hyperproduction. Acne-prone skin expresses higher levels of androgen generating enzymes than non-acne-prone skin (HSD17B3 and AKR1C3 converting A4 to T, STS and SRD5A1. Local over-production of DHT has been proposed as cause of androgenic alopecia and 5a-reductase inhibitors are an established treatment for male pattern alopecia.
The major fractions of androgen metabolites are conjugated to facilitate their excretion. Indeed, a recent study quantifying androgen metabolites and their sulfo- and glucoconjugates in serum, showed that T and DHT circulate predominantly in their unconjugated form, while their metabolites androsterone (AST, 5a-androstan-3a-ol-17-one), epiandrosterone (5a-androstan-3B-ol-17-one, EpiAST) and 3a-adiol (5a-androstan-3a,17B-diol) were mostly conjugated, each with specific preferences for sulfation or glucuronidation. It has previously been suggested that the sum of the circulating metabolites AST-glucuronide and 3a/B-adiol-glucuronide should be used as estimates of active androgens produced in peripheral tissue (3B-adiol, 5a-androstan-3B,17B-diol).
Finasteride or Accutane are often used to treat these problems. At the same time several POIS cases can be connected to them. In both cases there were results that showed a low level of 3a-adiol-glucuronide.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=458.0
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1397.msg12889#msg12889
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=107.20
Besides this my case is most likely due to a lack of 3B-adiol as functional substitution with supplements ameliorates symptoms.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=4061.0
-
Even if we don't have serum hormone alterations,
it can't be excluded that POIS is a hormonal issue…
Agreed!
-
With the progress of medicine, I now realize that all systems of the human body are closely combined. Problems with the immune system may also indicate problems with the endocrine system, but it's not so obvious.
Immune system problems and endocrine problems may be unified
-
With the progress of medicine, I now realize that all systems of the human body are closely combined. Problems with the immune system may also indicate problems with the endocrine system, but it's not so obvious.
Immune system problems and endocrine problems may be unified
Interesting.
-
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-20mg-tablets-x-4-p12761-13862_zoom.jpg)
Prior to my testosterone treatment I tried Levitra, an erectile dysfunction med, a PDE5 inhibitor - - as an experimental treatment for my POIS.
It worked.
Then it eventually stopped working.
Luckily, I found testosterone, which I’ve been on for 11 years - - for POIS.
Today, I thought I’d give PDE5 another chance, so I tried Cialis, minimum dose. Too early to tell. If it doesn’t improve my POIS in Quantum’s suggested testing timeline, you won’t hear any more about it from me in this thread.
Best,
Demo
-
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-20mg-tablets-x-4-p12761-13862_zoom.jpg)
…Today, I tried Cialis, minimum dose…
(Please see my directly preceding post)
Only hours later, slight improvement in my TRT-treated POIS.
The libido recovery rate is remarkable!
Even after POIS onset.
-
Good luck with this test set.
I remember reading that Cialis and Viagra have effects that relax smooth muscles tissues that are similar to niacin (flush). However, for me (with niacin) tolerance to those flushing effects built up quickly and became ineffective.
-
Thanks for the niacin/Cialis comparison, Limejuice. Had no idea!
-
Good luck with this [Cialis] test set…
So far, Limejuice: dramatic POIS improvement!
Time will tell.
-
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-20mg-tablets-x-4-p12761-13862_zoom.jpg)
Good luck with this [Cialis] test set…
So far, Limejuice: dramatic POIS improvement!
Time will tell.
Limejuice,
this time - - 3rd trial (yesterday) it ***didn’t*** work!
My POIS was worse than in a loooong time!!!
:( :(
-
Ah bummer! This same thing happened to you before, right (worked and then it didn't)?
Same thing happens with niacin for me...
-
Ah bummer! This same thing happened to you before, right (worked and then it didn't)?
Same thing happens with niacin for me...
Exactly, Limejuice!!
Deja vu!
-
(https://www.nugenix.com/global-images/products/product-DD-NUMX120~1-lg.png)
Advertised heavily!
Anyone know if this supplement is worth testing?
-
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-20mg-tablets-x-4-p12761-13862_zoom.jpg)
Good luck with this [Cialis] test set…
So far, Limejuice: dramatic POIS improvement!
Time will tell.
Limejuice,
this time - - 3rd trial (yesterday) it ***didn’t*** work!
My POIS was worse than in a loooong time!!!
:( :(
Ah bummer! This same thing happened to you before, right (worked and then it didn't)?
Same thing happens with niacin for me...
Limejuice, THIS time (4th Trial) it DID work!!
ps - I’m 76 years young today!
-
Happy birthday to you (and I think the Cialis concurs)!
-
Happy Birthday Demo.
Wishing you all the happiness someone as nice as you deserves for spending your time and effort in running this very useful forum
-
Happy Birthday Demo.
Wishing you all the happiness someone as nice as you deserves for spending your time and effort in running this very useful forum
aswinpras, thank you!
Best wishes,
Demo
-
Happy birthday to you (and I think the Cialis concurs)!
Haha!
Thank you, Limejuice!
And thank you for your major contributions here - - for many years!!!
Best,
Demo
-
My Testosterone-for-POIS treatment update:
In spite of my testosterone daily patches being at the highest possible Rx dose, my last blood test shows me to still be in the “low normal” range.
To increase my free testosterone blood levels, my endocrinologist suggested to switch to testosterone injections or gel, but I refused. I’m just more comfortable with the patches.
-
My Testosterone-for-POIS treatment update:
In spite of my testosterone daily patches being at the highest possible Rx dose, my last blood test shows me to still be only in the “low normal” range.
To increase my free testosterone blood levels, my endocrinologist suggested to switch to testosterone injections or gel, but I refused. I’m just more comfortable with the patches.
hello, what is the result of TRT treatment? Does it cure your POIS completely?
-
hello, what is the result of TRT treatment? Does it cure your POIS completely?
TRT does *not* cure my POIS completely.
I cannot summarize the 39 pages here, so for further insight on my case (and more), please review the testosterone thread:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=17.0
-
hello, what is the result of TRT treatment? Does it cure your POIS completely?
TRT does *not* cure my POIS completely.
I cannot summarize the 39 pages here, so for further insight on my case (and more), please review the testosterone thread:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=17.0
got it, thank you!
-
BODYBUILDER DOSES OF TESTOSTERONE
Last night, I chatted with an anonymous donor of POISCenter, who is also a bodybuilder. And a POISer.
He recounted his experience with an 800 milligram dose (I take 8-16mg!!!) - - which is an average bodybuilder dose - - that ‘wiped out’ one of his POIS episodes.
But if it’s a “2-in-a-row” climax, it doesn’t work. Strangely.
Some bodybuilders will use as much as 2,300mg of testosterone.
I do not recommend this, it’s dangerous for some people (like me, with a history of cardiac issues), and, in many cases - - illicit
But it is interesting in that it might help confirm a relationship between POIS and testosterone. For some POIS types (see Quantum’s chart).
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2338.msg19448#msg19448
-
BODYBUILDER DOSES OF TESTOSTERONE
Last night, I chatted with an anonymous donor of POISCenter, who is also a bodybuilder. And a POISer.
He recounted his experience with an 800 milligram dose (I take 8-16mg!!!) - - which is an average bodybuilder dose - - that ‘wiped out’ one of his POIS episodes.
But if it’s a “2-in-a-row” climax, it doesn’t work. Strangely.
Some bodybuilders will use as much as 2,300mg of testosterone.
I do not recommend this, it’s dangerous for some people (like me, with a history of cardiac issues), and, in many cases - - illicit
But it is interesting in that it might help confirm a relationship between POIS and testosterone. For some POIS types (see Quantum’s chart).
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2338.msg19448#msg19448
hello, what is “2-in-a-row” climax?(Sorry that I am not a native English Speaker.....)
-
BODYBUILDER DOSES OF TESTOSTERONE
Last night, I chatted with an anonymous donor of POISCenter, who is also a bodybuilder. And a POISer.
He recounted his experience with an 800 milligram dose (I take 8-16mg!!!) - - which is an average bodybuilder dose - - that ‘wiped out’ one of his POIS episodes.
But if it’s a “2-in-a-row” climax, it doesn’t work. Strangely.
Some bodybuilders will use as much as 2,300mg of testosterone.
I do not recommend this, it’s dangerous for some people (like me, with a history of cardiac issues), and, in many cases - - illicit
But it is interesting in that it might help confirm a relationship between POIS and testosterone. For some POIS types (see Quantum’s chart).
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2338.msg19448#msg19448
hello, what is “2-in-a-row” climax?(Sorry that I am not a native English Speaker.....)
2 orgasms one after the other in a short period of time.
-
BODYBUILDER DOSES OF TESTOSTERONE
…But if it’s a “2-in-a-row” climax, it doesn’t work. Strangely…
Interestingly, I see the same pattern with my own
8 - 16mg TRT usage!
-
BODYBUILDER DOSES OF TESTOSTERONE
Last night, I chatted with an anonymous donor of POISCenter, who is also a bodybuilder. And a POISer.
He recounted his experience with an 800 milligram dose (I take 8-16mg!!!) - - which is an average bodybuilder dose - - that ‘wiped out’ one of his POIS episodes.
But if it’s a “2-in-a-row” climax, it doesn’t work. Strangely.
Some bodybuilders will use as much as 2,300mg of testosterone.
I do not recommend this, it’s dangerous for some people (like me, with a history of cardiac issues), and, in many cases - - illicit
But it is interesting in that it might help confirm a relationship between POIS and testosterone. For some POIS types (see Quantum’s chart).
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2338.msg19448#msg19448
hello, what is “2-in-a-row” climax?(Sorry that I am not a native English Speaker.....)
2 orgasms one after the other in a short period of time.
maybe it is just because the T he uses is not enough, higher dose maybe is the answer
-
BODYBUILDER DOSES OF TESTOSTERONE
Last night, I chatted with an anonymous donor of POISCenter, who is also a bodybuilder. And a POISer.
He recounted his experience with an 800 milligram dose (I take 8-16mg!!!) - - which is an average bodybuilder dose - - that ‘wiped out’ one of his POIS episodes.
But if it’s a “2-in-a-row” climax, it doesn’t work. Strangely.
Some bodybuilders will use as much as 2,300mg of testosterone.
I do not recommend this, it’s dangerous for some people (like me, with a history of cardiac issues), and, in many cases - - illicit
But it is interesting in that it might help confirm a relationship between POIS and testosterone. For some POIS types (see Quantum’s chart).
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2338.msg19448#msg19448
hello, what is “2-in-a-row” climax?(Sorry that I am not a native English Speaker.....)
2 orgasms one after the other in a short period of time.
maybe it is just because the T he uses is not enough, higher dose maybe is the answer
Lihua, 800 milligrams is “not enough”??? That’s a
H U G E dose!!!!
A higher dose could kill my friend.
It works 100% at elimination of his POIS symptoms at Orgasm#1.
What this really means is that O #2,
***IF*** it’s in short order - - is simply too much for his body/mind/brain to overcome!
As I said in a previous reply, the above is also true in my case: my own
TRT-for-POIS regimen for the last 10 years works well on #1, but NOT if #2 occurs too quickly after #1.
I think Quantum once said that - - regardless of POIS treatment method - - some form of abstinence is still necessary.
”Heavy Testosterone Use Among Bodybuilders
An Uncommon Cohort of Illicit Substance Users”
https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(15)00890-3/fulltext
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
;D I think i found MY own “cure”! ;D
Why am i laughing? See #4 below!
• On Day Zero (the sometimes-partial-day when POIS onset occurs)
1. Increase my 24/7/365/day TRT dose
Assumption: testosterone drops/POIS
2. If Day Zero is @ night use CPAP sleep apnea device pictured above
3. Take Tylenol PM as needed, keeping in mind that excessive use landed me in the ER before!
4. Sleep it off or rest in bed all of Day Zero (this action alone feels nearly POIS-free)
• Wake up Day 1 nearly POIS-free!
I’m retired so i can get away with this! But I also did this on this most recent weekend on SATURDAY. Some of you could theoretically do this 1) if POIS starts on a weekend and 2) this TRT-for-POIS treatment works for you (big IF!) like mine does. And I have worked closely with an endocrinologist/M.D. for the last 11 years.
-
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)
I’m experimenting with Cialis as an adjunct to my TRT treatment for POIS.
Do you believe…that [POIS] could have something to do with the refractory period…
Always have.
In my case, I believe refractory sluggishness (a slow semen replenishment rate) is my POIS culprit. I’m hoping to speed up the refractory process - - along with my TRT treatment.
But - - as Quantum indicates - - let’s wait a few months before declaring success.
From Google:
“One 2017 meta-analysis found that taking PDE5 inhibitors like Viagra, Cialis, and Levitra boosted the number of motile sperm as well as normally shaped sperm.”
I’m trying to find out whether or not “sperm” might also include “semen” in the above meta-analysis. TRT destroyed my sperm count (down to 0.00!!)
I think I see improvement, perhaps my refractory sluggishness - - my POIS theory since 2007 - - is speeding up?
“Speeding up” = semen replenishment
rate increases.
I’m in the very early stages of Quantum’s 90-day suggestion of evaluating Cialis for POIS treatment and I might be experiencing a “placebo effect”
Before Quantum puts a method in his chart, he needs at least one good referenced case, with solid information.
If Cialis does indeed boost semen, and I continue to have better POIS results, I think that this partially corroborates my “refractory sluggishness = POIS” theory - - from my 2007 thinking. Purely intuitive, no science.
-
Good luck with this idea! And have fun with the testing process!
-
Good luck with this idea! And have fun with the [Cialis] testing process!
Thanks, Limejuice!
-
Have you been checked for a varicocele demo?
-
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)
Good luck with this idea! And have fun with the [Cialis] testing process!
Thanks, Limejuice!
POISed this afternoon:
• Took 10mg Cialis. Theory: increases semen, speeding up the POIS-sluggish refractory process
• Doubled normal TRT dose. Theory: when POIS starts, testosterone drops. This reverses the drop.
• Napped. Always helps restore vitality
So far: it’s definitely an improvement!
-
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)
Good luck with this idea! And have fun with the [Cialis] testing process!
Thanks, Limejuice!
POISed this afternoon:
• Took 10mg Cialis. Theory: increases semen, speeding up the POIS-sluggish refractory process
• Doubled normal TRT dose. Theory: when POIS starts, testosterone drops. This reverses the drop.
• Napped. Always helps restore vitality
So far: it’s definitely an improvement!
It’s the-day-after-POIS-attack and I feel
VERY good. Is it the Cialis? Time will tell!
-
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)
Good luck with this idea! And have fun with the [Cialis] testing process!
Thanks, Limejuice!
POISed this afternoon:
• Took 10mg Cialis. Theory: increases semen, speeding up the POIS-sluggish refractory process
• Doubled normal TRT dose. Theory: when POIS starts, testosterone drops. This reverses the drop.
• Napped. Always helps restore vitality
So far: it’s definitely an improvement!
It’s the-day-after-POIS-attack and I feel
VERY good. Is it the Cialis? Time will tell!
I just noticed this in
Quantum’s POIS Types Chart:
hi Quantum,
I have been eating a lot of eggs every morning regularly for over a year now to get more protein into my body. As for tadalafil [Cialis] a doctor told me to try it and prescribed it to me two months ago and i would say that it has reduced my pois by 60-70% (mostly on my brain fog ,concentration and social anxiety) as for my physical symptoms i feel it reduces them by around 50%.
-
Glad it’s still working! Almost halfway through the 3 week rule. Please keep us posted!
-
Glad it’s still working! Almost halfway through the 3 week rule. Please keep us posted!
Thanks, LJ!
-
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)
Good luck with this idea! And have fun with the [Cialis] testing process!
Thanks, Limejuice!
POISed this afternoon:
• Took 10mg Cialis. Theory: increases semen, speeding up the POIS-sluggish refractory process
• Doubled normal TRT dose. Theory: when POIS starts, testosterone drops. This reverses the drop.
• Napped. Always helps restore vitality
So far: it’s definitely an improvement!
It’s the-day-after-POIS-attack and I feel
VERY good. Is it the Cialis? Time will tell!
This morning, POISed, I repeated these steps (• above) and the results are…good!
-
Will this supplement the patches now?
-
Will this supplement the patches now?
Yes, if it continues to work.
-
Does it work with thestosterone injections?
-
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)
Good luck with this idea! And have fun with the [Cialis] testing process!
Thanks, Limejuice!
POISed this afternoon:
• Took 10mg Cialis. Theory: increases semen, speeding up the POIS-sluggish refractory process
• Doubled normal TRT dose. Theory: when POIS starts, testosterone drops. This reverses the drop.
• Napped. Always helps restore vitality
So far: it’s definitely an improvement!
It’s the-day-after-POIS-attack and I feel
VERY good. Is it the Cialis? Time will tell!
This morning, POISed, I repeated these steps (• above) and the results are…good!
Once again, good results.
Since 2007 (when this Forum began as POIS/NSF), I hypothesized that
my POIS is somehow related to a
sluggish refractory system
At my POIS onset, the new improvement I see might come from increasing semen volume & motility
INFERTILITY ALERT: as a result of my
TRT-for-POIS treatment, my sperm count went to 0.00! So if you’re planning a family, decide wisely. With a doctor. I prefer an endocrinologist.
-
(https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/newscms/2017_40/2176846/171003-better-stock-man-sleeping-alone-ew-602p.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)
(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
After 15 years’ experimentation, this (above) is what I do for my POIS treatment. Effectiveness for me: sometimes, nearly completely POIS-free. Some episodes are “better” than others.
Major disadvantage: POIS Day Zero (the first day when POIS actually onsets)
is - - often but not always - - spent resting and/or in bed. I use Tylenol PM to force more sleep.
CPAP machine (last image above) aids oxygenation.
I am still working on
• timing,
• dosages, and
• prior abstinence required
in conjunction with the combination pictured above
INFERTILITY ALERT: as a result of my
Testosterone-for-POIS treatment, my sperm count went to 0.00!
So if you’re planning a family (I already had children before my testosterone-induced sperm loss) decide wisely. With a doctor. I prefer an endocrinologist.
-
hello Demografx, Have you ever tried to stop using testosterone and see if you have any symptoms? Testosterone can affect the urinary system and cure prostatitis
-
hello Demografx, Have you ever tried to stop using testosterone and see if you have any symptoms? Testosterone can affect the urinary system and cure prostatitis
No.
-
Day Zero sleep/rest & Infertility Alert edits:
(https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/newscms/2017_40/2176846/171003-better-stock-man-sleeping-alone-ew-602p.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)
(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
After 15 years’ experimentation, this (above) is what I do for my POIS treatment. Effectiveness for me: sometimes, nearly completely POIS-free. Some episodes are “better” than others.
Major disadvantage: POIS Day Zero (the first day when POIS actually onsets)
is - - often but not always - - spent resting and/or in bed. I use Tylenol PM to force more sleep.
CPAP machine (last image above) aids oxygenation.
I am still working on
• timing,
• dosages, and
• prior abstinence required
in conjunction with the combination pictured above
INFERTILITY ALERT: as a result of my
Testosterone-for-POIS treatment, my sperm count went to 0.00!
So if you’re planning a family (I already had children before my testosterone-induced sperm loss) decide wisely. With a doctor. I prefer an endocrinologist.
-
Have you been checked for a varicocele demo?
Long ago. Seemed irrelevant.
-
Day Zero sleep/rest & Infertility Alert edits:
(https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/newscms/2017_40/2176846/171003-better-stock-man-sleeping-alone-ew-602p.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)
(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
After 15 years’ experimentation, this (above) is what I do for my POIS treatment. Effectiveness for me: sometimes, nearly completely POIS-free. Some episodes are “better” than others.
Major disadvantage: POIS Day Zero (the first day when POIS actually onsets)
is - - often but not always - - spent resting and/or in bed. I use Tylenol PM to force more sleep.
CPAP machine (last image above) aids oxygenation.
I am still working on
• timing,
• dosages, and
• prior abstinence required
in conjunction with the combination pictured above
INFERTILITY ALERT: as a result of my
Testosterone-for-POIS treatment, my sperm count went to 0.00!
So if you’re planning a family (I already had children before my testosterone-induced sperm loss) decide wisely. With a doctor. I prefer an endocrinologist.
-
(https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/newscms/2017_40/2176846/171003-better-stock-man-sleeping-alone-ew-602p.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
After 15 years’ experimentation, this (above) is what I do for my POIS treatment. Effectiveness for me: sometimes, nearly completely POIS-free. Some episodes are “better” than others.
Major disadvantage: POIS Day Zero (the first day when POIS actually onsets)
is - - often but not always - - spent resting and/or in bed. I use Tylenol PM to force more sleep.
CPAP machine (last image above) aids oxygenation.
I am still working on
• timing,
• dosages, and
• prior abstinence required
in conjunction with the combination pictured above
INFERTILITY ALERT: as a result of my
Testosterone-for-POIS treatment, my sperm count went to 0.00!
So if you’re planning a family (I already had children before my testosterone-induced sperm loss) decide wisely. With a doctor. I prefer an endocrinologist.
========================
This morning, POIS “struck”, and I followed my protocol above. I did not rest/stay in bed/force sleep and was busy with errands all day.
I have “miraculously” been POIS-free all day!!
Placebo effect? Time will tell!
Activity vs passivity was the only difference today.
-
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-20mg-tablets-x-4-p12761-13862_zoom.jpg)
Prior to my testosterone treatment I tried Levitra, an erectile dysfunction med, a PDE5 inhibitor - - as an experimental treatment for my POIS.
It worked.
Then it eventually stopped working.
Luckily, I found testosterone, which I’ve been on for 11 years - - for POIS.
Today, I thought I’d give PDE5 another chance, so I tried Cialis, minimum dose. Too early to tell. If it doesn’t improve my POIS in Quantum’s suggested testing timeline, you won’t hear any more about it from me in this thread.
Best,
Demo
Quantum, it’s been 5 months since I posted this and - - after yesterday’s POIS-episode-and-Cialis-effective-treatment-supplementation, i hope we can add this to your POIS-types Chart & Treatment Methods.
Thank you,
Demo
My theory: Cialis speeds up POIS-induced refractory-period-sluggishness, which I think causes my POIS symptoms:
from Google search:
“Erectile dysfunction drugs called phosphodiesterase type 5(PDE5) inhibitors—which include meds like Viagra, Cialis, and Levitra—may also boost sperm quality in men whose swimmers aren't up to snuff, a new meta-analysis from China concludes.”
2017.
-
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-20mg-tablets-x-4-p12761-13862_zoom.jpg)
Prior to my testosterone treatment I tried Levitra, an erectile dysfunction med, a PDE5 inhibitor - - as an experimental treatment for my POIS.
It worked.
Then it eventually stopped working.
Luckily, I found testosterone, which I’ve been on for 11 years - - for POIS.
Today, I thought I’d give PDE5 another chance, so I tried Cialis, minimum dose. Too early to tell. If it doesn’t improve my POIS in Quantum’s suggested testing timeline, you won’t hear any more about it from me in this thread.
Best,
Demo
Quantum, it’s been 5 months since I posted this and - - after yesterday’s POIS-episode-and-Cialis-effective-treatment-supplementation, i hope we can add this to your POIS-types Chart & Treatment Methods.
Thank you,
Demo
My theory: Cialis speeds up POIS-induced refractory-period-sluggishness, which I think causes my POIS symptoms:
from Google search:
“Erectile dysfunction drugs called phosphodiesterase type 5(PDE5) inhibitors—which include meds like Viagra, Cialis, and Levitra—may also boost sperm quality in men whose swimmers aren't up to snuff, a new meta-analysis from China concludes.”
2017.
If I understand it well, Demo, you are still taking Testosterone, but by adding Cialis, you speed up the recovery time, right ? If so, can you give me more details ( duration of POIS with TRT only, and duration with TRT+tadalafil(Cialis) ? Then, I will have enough details to update the TRT section of my POIS Types Chart.
-
If I understand it well, Demo, you are still taking Testosterone, but by adding Cialis, you speed up the recovery time, right ?
Yes
If so, can you give me more details ( duration of POIS with TRT only, and duration with TRT+tadalafil(Cialis) ? Then, I will have enough details to update the TRT section of my POIS Types Chart.
As I mentioned in a previous post, I’m still experimenting with dosages and timing
So far, recovery with TRT alone is 2 days, with taladafil, less than a day.
Intensity of symptoms is less with TRT + taladafil.
Part of the equation I’m still working on is prior ideal abstinence and dosages of TRT and dosages of taladafil. I’ve increased both.
Perhaps I should determine a stable formula before you’re able to cite TRT + taladafil.
Also, CPAP machine and daytime sleep induction (Tylenol + Benadryl) are variables.
-
I have made an update in the "Notes" section of the TRT Type, in my chart:
"In 2021, Demografx added tadalafil 20mg ( Cialis) to his anti-POIS regimen. Recovery with TRT alone was 2 days, and when using TRT+taladafil, recovery is less than a day. Also, the intensity of symptoms is less with TRT + taladafil. ( note: considering that the duration of effect of tadalafil is around 36 hours, the timing of this medication intake is not a concern)"
If you get more detailed information or a more stable formula over time, just let me know.
-
I have made an update in the "Notes" section of the TRT Type, in my chart:
"In 2021, Demografx added tadalafil 20mg ( Cialis) to his anti-POIS regimen. Recovery with TRT alone was 2 days, and when using TRT+taladafil, recovery is less than a day. Also, the intensity of symptoms is less with TRT + taladafil. ( note: considering that the duration of effect of tadalafil is around 36 hours, the timing of this medication intake is not a concern)"
If you get more detailed information or a more stable formula over time, just let me know.
Thank you, Quantum! After 15 years of POIS treatment experiments, I have achieved fame (if not fortune) in Quantum’s POIS Types Chart.
An accomplishment!
-
In 2021…
Early 2022.
…Demografx added tadalafil 20mg ( Cialis) to his anti-POIS regimen.
My Medical Group Pharmacist changed my Rx from 20mg to 10mg based on
• my age (76)
• my medical profile (surgeries, cardiac condition. other prescriptions, etc.)
-
In 2021…
Early 2022.
…Demografx added tadalafil 20mg ( Cialis) to his anti-POIS regimen.
My Medical Group Pharmacist changed my Rx from 20mg to 10mg based on
• my age (76)
• my medical profile (surgeries, cardiac condition. other prescriptions, etc.)
ok, I have updated the note in the chart.
-
ok, I have updated the [Cialis] note in the [POIS Types] chart.
Quantum, many thanks!
-
[For Demo’s testosterone + Cialis POIS treatment], if you get more detailed information or a more stable formula over time, just let me know.
Will do. And many thanks, Quantum, for your amazing thoroughness and dedication, in compiling POISCenter’s POIS Types Chart & POIS Treatment Methods!
-
[For Demo’s testosterone + Cialis POIS treatment], if you get more detailed information or a more stable formula over time, just let me know.
Will do. And many thanks, Quantum, for your amazing thoroughness and dedication, in compiling POISCenter’s POIS Types Chart & POIS Treatment Methods!
Thank you ! I really think it is a must to keep track of all success members have in contrilling their POIS symptoms.
-
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-20mg-tablets-x-4-p12761-13862_zoom.jpg)
Prior to my testosterone treatment I tried Levitra, an erectile dysfunction med, a PDE5 inhibitor - - as an experimental treatment for my POIS.
It worked.
Then it eventually stopped working.
Luckily, I found testosterone, which I’ve been on for 11 years - - for POIS.
Today, I thought I’d give PDE5 another chance, so I tried Cialis, minimum dose. Too early to tell. If it doesn’t improve my POIS in Quantum’s suggested testing timeline, you won’t hear any more about it from me in this thread.
Best,
Demo
Quantum, it’s been 5 months since I posted this and - - after yesterday’s POIS-episode-and-Cialis-effective-treatment-supplementation, i hope we can add this to your POIS-types Chart & Treatment Methods.
Thank you,
Demo
My theory: Cialis speeds up POIS-induced refractory-period-sluggishness, which I think causes my POIS symptoms:
from Google search:
“Erectile dysfunction drugs called phosphodiesterase type 5(PDE5) inhibitors—which include meds like Viagra, Cialis, and Levitra—may also boost sperm quality in men whose swimmers aren't up to snuff, a new meta-analysis from China concludes.”
2017.
You've had intermittent success with Viagra in the past but has Cialis been a better PDE5? Looks like Cialis lasts much longer than Viagra - maybe that's the difference?
-
You've had intermittent success with Viagra in the past but has Cialis been a better PDE5? Looks like Cialis lasts much longer than Viagra - maybe that's the difference?
Levitra, never tried Viagra. But they’re identical, in my understanding of the two PDE5’s.
Interesting question, Limejuice!
1. Levitra (similar to Viagra) was intermittent, i think, because I experimented with it prior to my now-primary testosterone (TRT) POIS treatment.
2. Yes, Cialis has a much longer (36-72 hours’) range of effectiveness, and probably makes a significant difference.
And as Quantum mentioned, Cialis’ longer effectiveness span might make timing-for-POIS less important.
Thanks for asking.
-
Interesting that Cialis works for up to 72 hours and POIS episodes lasts for about the same duration (how long does POIS last for you on TRT?).
Glad you've found a second remedy that provides extra relief
-
Interesting that Cialis works for up to 72 hours and POIS episodes lasts for about the same duration (how long does POIS last for you on TRT?).
Glad you've found a second remedy that provides extra relief
Limejuice, my POIS lasts 1-2 days on TRT.
4 days in pre-TRT times. And symptoms were more intense.
-
(https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/newscms/2017_40/2176846/171003-better-stock-man-sleeping-alone-ew-602p.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
After 15 years’ experimentation, this (above) is what I do for my POIS treatment. Effectiveness for me: sometimes, nearly completely POIS-free. Some episodes are “better” than others.
Major disadvantage: POIS Day Zero (the first day when POIS actually onsets)
is - - often but not always - - spent resting and/or in bed. I use Tylenol PM to force more sleep.
CPAP machine (last image above) aids oxygenation.
I am still working on
• timing,
• dosages, and
• prior abstinence required
in conjunction with the combination pictured above
INFERTILITY ALERT: as a result of my
Testosterone-for-POIS treatment, my sperm count went to 0.00!
So if you’re planning a family (I already had children before my testosterone-induced sperm loss) decide wisely. With a doctor. I prefer an endocrinologist.
========================
This morning, POIS “struck”, and I followed my protocol above. I did not rest/stay in bed/force sleep and was busy with errands all day.
I have “miraculously” been POIS-free all day!!
Placebo effect? Time will tell!
Activity vs passivity was the only difference today.
Limejuice, Quantum, et al:
I’m continuing to have repeat success!
-
Does it work with thestosterone [sic] injections?
Sorry for the delay in responding, Didi, I only saw this just now.
My first endocrinologist was not in favor of injections, because they “spike” in and out of our systems.
On the other hand, testosterone patches or testosterone gel, he advised, provide a smoother, evenly, flow throughout the system, which mimics the way natural testosterone acts in the body.
I’ve been following this preference of his for testosterone administration for the last 11 years.
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQgdRM8qgpLVwc5aNJBWfj8weuS5IXfxmjRcg&usqp=CAU)
Video:
https://youtu.be/-KUfY0orf-E
Although Cialis is designed to treat ED (erectile dysfunction), as an off-label use it helps my POIS (as an augmentation to my TRT [testosterone] protocol).
I’m finding now that 5mg day(s) before and/or after POIS is better than 10mg or 20mg. The latter is too much of a “jolt” to my system, and increases sexual ideation, perhaps too much :)
-
Thanks for the update. Important dosage information as it seems too much could lead to more POIS. Glad your success continues.
-
Thanks for the update. Important dosage information as it seems
too much [Cialis] could lead to more POIS.
Glad your success continues.
Bold emphasis mine - - Demo
Many thanks, Limejuice!
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQgdRM8qgpLVwc5aNJBWfj8weuS5IXfxmjRcg&usqp=CAU)
Video:
https://youtu.be/-KUfY0orf-E
Although Cialis is designed to treat ED (erectile dysfunction), as an off-label use it helps my POIS (as an augmentation to my TRT [testosterone] protocol).
I’m finding now that 5mg day(s) before and/or after POIS is better than 10mg or 20mg. The latter is too much of a “jolt” to my system, and increases sexual ideation, perhaps too much :)
One possible theory: TRT+Cialis stimulates my semen production, thereby facilitating the speed of my refractory period recovery.
I’ve long thought that my refractory period sluggishness is possibly implicated in my POIS symptoms.
-
Out of all the many medical specialists I consulted since the 1970’s, endocrinologists are the only medical professionals who have significantly helped my POIS. For the last 12 years.
(https://reliefseeker.com/storage/media-manager/uploads/provider/HELombRYdYG7iZLPxWZuafxAfLOO6ZXs7eTqcdzj.png)
Has anyone tried this service? I called them once for
online endocrinology advice to supplement my periodic visits with my regular endocrinologist.
I didn’t continue after the “test”. I found another endocrinologist to work with. In person.
So I can’t yet “rank” them as good or bad.
JustAnswer Endocrinology:
https://tinyurl.com/2p8seujy
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQgdRM8qgpLVwc5aNJBWfj8weuS5IXfxmjRcg&usqp=CAU)
Video:
https://youtu.be/-KUfY0orf-E
Although Cialis is designed to treat ED (erectile dysfunction), as an off-label use it helps my POIS (as an augmentation to my TRT [testosterone] protocol).
I’m finding now that 5mg day(s) before and/or after POIS is better than 10mg or 20mg. The latter is too much of a “jolt” to my system, and increases sexual ideation, perhaps too much :)
One possible theory: TRT+Cialis stimulates my semen production, thereby facilitating the speed of my refractory period recovery.
I’ve long thought that my refractory period sluggishness is possibly implicated in my POIS symptoms.
Seems like a plausible explanation. Perhaps the process of creating semen is extensive and taxing to the body. Or maybe the body of POISers lack the ease of producing semen. Either way the fact that the combination of these supplements reduce your symptoms is great!
-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQgdRM8qgpLVwc5aNJBWfj8weuS5IXfxmjRcg&usqp=CAU)
Video:
https://youtu.be/-KUfY0orf-E
Although Cialis is designed to treat ED (erectile dysfunction), as an off-label use it helps my POIS (as an augmentation to my TRT [testosterone] protocol).
I’m finding now that 5mg day(s) before and/or after POIS is better than 10mg or 20mg. The latter is too much of a “jolt” to my system, and increases sexual ideation, perhaps too much :)
One possible theory: TRT+Cialis stimulates my semen production, thereby facilitating the speed of my refractory period recovery.
I’ve long thought that my refractory period sluggishness is possibly implicated in my POIS symptoms.
Seems like a plausible explanation. Perhaps the process of creating semen is extensive and taxing to the body. Or maybe the body of POISers lack the ease of producing semen. Either way the fact that the combination of these supplements reduce your symptoms is great!
Many thanks for your input, Limejuice!
-
From July 30, 2022 with UPDATE today, February 18, 2022
(https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/newscms/2017_40/2176846/171003-better-stock-man-sleeping-alone-ew-602p.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
After 15 years’ experimentation, this (above) is what I do for my POIS treatment. Effectiveness for me: sometimes, nearly completely POIS-free. Some episodes are “better” than others.
Major disadvantage: POIS Day Zero (the first day when POIS actually onsets)
is - - often but not always - - spent resting and/or in bed. I use Tylenol PM to force more sleep.
CPAP machine (last image above) aids oxygenation.
I am still working on
• timing,
• dosages, and
• prior abstinence required
in conjunction with the combination pictured above
INFERTILITY ALERT: as a result of my
Testosterone-for-POIS treatment, my sperm count went to 0.00!
So if you’re planning a family (I already had children before my testosterone-induced sperm loss) decide wisely. With a doctor. I prefer an endocrinologist.
=============================
This morning, POIS “struck”, and I followed my protocol above. I did not rest/stay in bed/force sleep and was busy with errands all day.
I have “miraculously” been POIS-free all day!!
Placebo effect? Time will tell!
Activity vs passivity was the only difference today.
========
My UPDATE:
========
(https://www.funimada.com/assets/images/cards/big/anniversary-16-2.gif)
February 18, 2023
Also *my* 16th Anniversary
at this forum:
***It’s still working for me***
Thank you fellow-forum-members!
-
[MY OWN, PERSONAL POIS HYPOTHESIS]
• The feeling I have is that my own POIS is somehow connected to the sluggish speed of my recovery/ refractory period.
• It seems that my symptomatic improvements stem from hastening the speed of my refractory period. I think that both Cialis and testosterone help this by stimulating semen movement.
I also think there’s a well-documented drop in testosterone upon POIS onset/orgasm, so a higher-than-normal dosage of TRT & Cialis is immediately used to offset this effect.
From July 30, 2022 with UPDATE today, February 18, 2022
(https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/newscms/2017_40/2176846/171003-better-stock-man-sleeping-alone-ew-602p.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
After 15 years’ experimentation, this (above) is what I do for my POIS treatment. Effectiveness for me: sometimes, nearly completely POIS-free. Some episodes are “better” than others.
Major disadvantage: POIS Day Zero (the first day when POIS actually onsets)
is - - often but not always - - spent resting and/or in bed. I use Tylenol PM to force more sleep.
CPAP machine (last image above) aids oxygenation.
I am still working on
• timing,
• dosages, and
• prior abstinence required
in conjunction with the combination pictured above
INFERTILITY ALERT: as a result of my
Testosterone-for-POIS treatment, my sperm count went to 0.00!
So if you’re planning a family (I already had children before my testosterone-induced sperm loss) decide wisely. With a doctor. I prefer an endocrinologist.
=============================
This morning, POIS “struck”, and I followed my protocol above. I did not rest/stay in bed/force sleep and was busy with errands all day.
I have “miraculously” been POIS-free all day!!
Placebo effect? Time will tell!
Activity vs passivity was the only difference today.
========
My UPDATE:
========
(https://www.funimada.com/assets/images/cards/big/anniversary-16-2.gif)
February 18, 2023
Also *my* 16th Anniversary
at this forum:
***It’s still working for me***
Thank you fellow-forum-members!
-
[MY OWN, PERSONAL POIS HYPOTHESIS]
• The feeling I have is that my own POIS is somehow connected to the sluggish speed of my recovery/ refractory period.
• It seems that my symptomatic improvements stem from hastening the speed of my refractory period. I think that both Cialis and testosterone help this by stimulating semen movement.
I also think there’s a well-documented drop in testosterone upon POIS onset/orgasm, so a higher-than-normal dosage of TRT & Cialis is immediately used to offset this effect.
From July 30, 2022 with UPDATE today, February 18, 2022
(https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/newscms/2017_40/2176846/171003-better-stock-man-sleeping-alone-ew-602p.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
After 15 years’ experimentation, this (above) is what I do for my POIS treatment. Effectiveness for me: sometimes, nearly completely POIS-free. Some episodes are “better” than others.
Major disadvantage: POIS Day Zero (the first day when POIS actually onsets)
is - - often but not always - - spent resting and/or in bed. I use Tylenol PM to force more sleep.
CPAP machine (last image above) aids oxygenation.
I am still working on
• timing,
• dosages, and
• prior abstinence required
in conjunction with the combination pictured above
INFERTILITY ALERT: as a result of my
Testosterone-for-POIS treatment, my sperm count went to 0.00!
So if you’re planning a family (I already had children before my testosterone-induced sperm loss) decide wisely. With a doctor. I prefer an endocrinologist.
=============================
This morning, POIS “struck”, and I followed my protocol above. I did not rest/stay in bed/force sleep and was busy with errands all day.
I have “miraculously” been POIS-free all day!!
Placebo effect? Time will tell!
Activity vs passivity was the only difference today.
========
My UPDATE:
========
(https://www.funimada.com/assets/images/cards/big/anniversary-16-2.gif)
February 18, 2023
Also *my* 16th Anniversary
at this forum:
***It’s still working for me***
Thank you fellow-forum-members!
If anyone wants to pursue such a theory should know that an analogous phrase for the refractory period is post-ejaculatory interval (PEI). PEI is one component of the sexual behavior that aphrodisiacs may positively regulate. Some herbs specifically found to reduce PEI are Devil's beggartick, White goosefoot, White sapote, Mucuna pruriens, Camel thistle, nutmeg, African basil, Tribulus and Damiana, but probably many of the other aphrodisiacs do so.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Dr-Satyendra-Prasad-2/publication/257746737_Pharmacologically_screened_aphrodisiac_plant-A_review_of_current_scientific_literature/links/5f12ac8492851c1eff1ba4ab/Pharmacologically-screened-aphrodisiac-plant-A-review-of-current-scientific-literature.pdf
Testing GABAA agonists and antagonists could be worthwhile as well.
However, there is a consistent body of evidence showing that GABA and drugs with GABAergic effects, have an inhibitory effect on male sexual behavior in the rat and this may be particularly significant during the postejaculatory refractory period when levels of GABA in the CSF are raised. Stimulation of presumed GABAA receptors in the MPOA decreases the number of animals mounting and intromitting whereas blockade of GABAA sites decreases the post-ejaculatory interval.
http://imop.med.auth.gr/sites/default/files/bancroft1999.pdf
-
Thank you, Progecitor, for your additional insights into my personal-POIS hypothesis!
-
Testosterone experts, do man can hawe low testosterone although i
hawe a so strong beard, chest hair, body hair, i mean my body hawe
no sings of low testasterone, like man boobs , high voice etc?
-
(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-5mg-tablets-x-28-p8919-11867_image.jpg)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-KUfY0orf-E/maxresdefault.jpg)
https://youtu.be/-KUfY0orf-E
Prior to my testosterone treatment I tried Levitra, an erectile dysfunction med, a PDE5 inhibitor - - as an experimental treatment for my POIS.
It worked.
But then it stopped working.
Luckily, I found testosterone, which I’ve been on for 11 years - - for POIS.
Today, I thought I’d give PDE5 another chance, so I tried Cialis, minimum dose. Too early to tell. If it doesn’t improve my POIS in Quantum’s suggested testing timeline, you won’t hear any more about it from me in this thread.
Best,
Demo
It’s been over a year since I wrote the above. Now taking Cialis DAILY (365 days/year). It improves my POIS symptoms.
My NEW POIS doctor (his clinic sees some “selective” POIS patients) also recommends taking this [italicized paragraph below] combination - see below L-Citrulline graphic - every morning.
His clinic’s protocol (for patients like me) is to take 3,000mg of L-Citrulline plus 5mg Cialis
D A I L Y (365 days). Plus my DAILY testosterone replacement therapy (TRT)
In accordance with Quantum’s 3-week trial before posting recommendation, I’ll wait till then for posting my POIS-reaction to L-Citrulline.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61UgN3n9rlL.jpg)
-
I wonder, is all man who hawe lower end testosterone hawe
pois symptomes to?
https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/13xibmq/trt_and_gonadorelin_cured_most_of_my_symptoms/
-
(https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/newscms/2017_40/2176846/171003-better-stock-man-sleeping-alone-ew-602p.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
After 15 years’ experimentation, this (above) is what I do for my POIS treatment. Effectiveness for me: sometimes, nearly completely POIS-free. Some episodes are “better” than others.
Major disadvantage: POIS Day Zero (the first day when POIS actually onsets)
is - - often but not always - - spent resting and/or in bed. I use Tylenol PM to force more sleep.
CPAP machine (last image above) aids oxygenation.
I am still working on
• timing,
• dosages, and
• prior abstinence required
in conjunction with the combination pictured above
INFERTILITY ALERT: as a result of my
Testosterone-for-POIS treatment, my sperm count went to 0.00!
So if you’re planning a family (I already had children before my testosterone-induced sperm loss) decide wisely. With a doctor. I prefer an endocrinologist.
=============================
My new POIS doctors (medical team) convinced me to switch from TRT daily patches to TRT injections weekly.
Have appointment soon to receive
.5 mL/100mg Testosterone Cypionate (Pfizer)
-
(https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/newscms/2017_40/2176846/171003-better-stock-man-sleeping-alone-ew-602p.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTtpFTG3oERb55qf9HaHO-paQyONtTTkM3c1GPq72mOuUcdWenf)(https://www.travelpharm.com/images/cialis-tadalafil-tablets-10mg-p8911-11865_image.jpg)(https://www.midcitytms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Are-Obstructive-Sleep-Apnea-and-Depression-Connected.jpg)
After 15 years’ experimentation, this (above) is what I do for my POIS treatment. Effectiveness for me: sometimes, nearly completely POIS-free. Some episodes are “better” than others.
Major disadvantage: POIS Day Zero (the first day when POIS actually onsets)
is - - often but not always - - spent resting and/or in bed. I use Tylenol PM to force more sleep.
CPAP machine (last image above) aids oxygenation.
I am still working on
• timing,
• dosages, and
• prior abstinence required
in conjunction with the combination pictured above
INFERTILITY ALERT: as a result of my
Testosterone-for-POIS treatment, my sperm count went to 0.00!
So if you’re planning a family (I already had children before my testosterone-induced sperm loss) decide wisely. With a doctor. I prefer an endocrinologist.
My new POIS doctors (medical team) convinced me to switch from TRT daily patches to TRT injections weekly.
Have appointment soon to receive
.5 mL/100mg Testosterone Cypionate (Pfizer)
My POIS symptoms are further improved. First weekly testosterone injection was yesterday.
But I will follow Quantum’s Three Week Rule:
“If you have found a treatment which seems to work very well to alleviate your symptoms and are dying to tell everyone about it, respect our three week rule. If you think you have found a treatment, make a short announcement that you think you have found something very useful, but that you will respect the three week rule before describing the treatment to others. The reasons for this are many-fold: the success you perceived may have been circumstantial, give the procedure time to prove itself, the treatment may only work for you and only in certain conditions and we don't wish to raise false hopes with our members unnecessarily.”
-
My current testosterone reading (from yesterday) with injections vs readings with TRT patches:
6/16/2023 10:21 PM
Component Value Ref Range & Units Status
Testosterone 316 200 - 1,000 ng/dL Final
April 18, 2023 (my new POIS doctors)
348
March 17, 2022 (with endocrinologist)
248
July 23, 2021 (with endocrinologist)
187
March 17, 2021 (with endocrinologist)
114
After 11 years of TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy): it’s still disappointing to be at the
LOWER END of the normal range!
Any thoughts?
======================
Update to the above
Googling TRT levels by age, maybe it’s not so low after all! (I’m in my 70’s):
Testosterone levels in 40s: 252–916 ng/dL
Testosterone levels in 50s: 215–878 ng/dL
Testosterone levels in 60s: 196–859 ng/dL
Testosterone levels in 70s: 156–819 ng/dL
From:
“Normal Testosterone Levels by Age”
https://tinyurl.com/ym6wjd67
-
After 15 years’ experimentation, this (above) is what I do for my POIS treatment. Effectiveness for me: sometimes, nearly completely POIS-free. Some episodes are “better” than others.
Major disadvantage: POIS Day Zero (the first day when POIS actually onsets)
is - - often but not always - - spent resting and/or in bed. I use Tylenol PM to force more sleep.
CPAP machine (last image above) aids oxygenation.
I am still working on
• timing,
• dosages, and
• prior abstinence required
in conjunction with the combination pictured above
INFERTILITY ALERT: as a result of my
Testosterone-for-POIS treatment, my sperm count went to 0.00!
So if you’re planning a family (I already had children before my testosterone-induced sperm loss) decide wisely. With a doctor. I prefer an endocrinologist.
My new POIS doctors (medical team) convinced me to switch from TRT daily patches to TRT injections weekly.
Have appointment soon to receive
.5 mL/100mg Testosterone Cypionate (Pfizer)
My POIS symptoms are further improved. First weekly testosterone injection was yesterday.
But I will follow POISCenter’s Three Week Rule:
I’m a few days’ short of 3-weeks, but I wanted to report today because I had a POIS Episode just yesterday.
Yesterday’s POIS onset is much improved symptomatically (yesterday & today) - - over my typical experience!
I’m certain it’s due to nearly 3 weeks of testosterone weekly intramuscular injections (plus daily low-dose Cialis plus daily 3,000 mg L-Citrulline) vs. daily transdermal patches. I have been applying the latter protocol since the year 2009.
Since I’m still on the low side of testosterone levels for my age (77), I asked for and received approval for a higher dose on Thursday of this week, my next scheduled injection.
-
Since I’m still on the low side of testosterone levels for my age (77), I asked for and received approval for a [50%] higher dose on Thursday of this week, my next scheduled injection.
With yesterday’s POIS, I experienced meaningful recovery after just four (4) hours! - - which included a very brief dozing off/nap.
Big breakthrough for me!
But it’s only 3 weeks. After 3 months, I’ll ask Quantum to please include my
weekly testosterone high-dose injections in his POIS Treatment Methods Chart!
-
Since I’m still on the low side of testosterone levels for my age (77), I asked for and received approval for a [50%] higher dose on Thursday of this week, my next scheduled injection.
With yesterday’s POIS, I experienced meaningful recovery after just four (4) hours! - - which included a very brief dozing off/nap.
Big breakthrough for me!
But it’s only 3 weeks. After 3 months, I’ll ask Quantum to please include my
weekly testosterone higher-dose injections in his POIS Treatment Methods Chart!
It’s been about 3 weeks since I wrote this and my weekly testosterone higher-dose injections continue to significantly improve my POIS recovery time (vs. my daily transdermal testosterone patches since 2010).
-
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/P0KvEH-RLjM/maxresdefault.jpg)
I’m vacationing for the month of August, so my new POIS doctors prescribed this for
self-injecting my testosterone while traveling! (No nurse required ;D)
I thought I was too fearful to self-inject, but this is sooooo easy & 100% painless, safe & foolproof!!
And no, I’m not an advertising spokesperson for the product! ;D
-
Since I’m still on the low side of testosterone levels for my age (77), I asked for and received approval for a [50%] higher dose on Thursday of this week, my next scheduled injection.
With yesterday’s POIS, I experienced meaningful recovery after just four (4) hours! - - which included a very brief dozing off/nap.
Big breakthrough for me!
But it’s only 3 weeks. After 3 months, I’ll ask Quantum to please include my
weekly testosterone higher-dose injections in his POIS Treatment Methods Chart!
It’s been about 3 weeks since I wrote this and my weekly testosterone higher-dose injections continue to significantly improve my POIS recovery time (vs. my daily transdermal testosterone patches since 2010).
• The above protocol
plus
• (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IwobTpqGzPg/maxresdefault.jpg)
continue to effectively alleviate my POIS.
Quantum, it’s now about 3 months :)
-
If anyone wants to pursue such a theory should know that an analogous phrase for the refractory period is post-ejaculatory interval (PEI). PEI is one component of the sexual behavior that aphrodisiacs may positively regulate. Some herbs specifically found to reduce PEI are Devil's beggartick, White goosefoot, White sapote, Mucuna pruriens, Camel thistle, nutmeg, African basil, Tribulus and Damiana, but probably many of the other aphrodisiacs do so.
Damiana is interesting. I've been using it for a few weeks now (patented extract, marketed for female libido)and I think it improves recovery time.
Here is some rat studies:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19501274/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23298455/
-
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/P0KvEH-RLjM/maxresdefault.jpg)
I’m vacationing for the month of August, so my new POIS doctors prescribed this for self-injecting my testosterone while traveling! (No nurse required ;D)
I thought I was too fearful to self-inject, but this [new method] is sooooo easy & 100% painless, safe & foolproof!! (You never see the needle!).
And no, I’m not an advertising spokesperson for the product! ;D
My insurance co. (Medicare +etc.) FINALLY approved (not easily!!) with a $50 monthly co-pay. Till now, I’ve been spending outrageous sum$ with Uber to get injected at my POIS doctors’ clinic.
Great “holiday present” for me! :)
-
My insurance co. (Medicare +etc.) FINALLY approved (not easily!!) with a $50 monthly co-pay. Till now, I’ve been spending outrageous sum$ with Uber to get injected at my POIS doctors’ clinic.
Great “holiday present” for me! :)
Well done Demo, fighting POIS takes persistance :)
-
My insurance co. (Medicare +etc.) FINALLY approved (not easily!!) with a $50 monthly co-pay. Till now, I’ve been spending outrageous sum$ with Uber to get injected at my POIS doctors’ clinic.
Great “holiday present” for me! :)
Well done Demo, fighting POIS takes persistence :)
Thanks, hurray!
-
I'm less present on the forum. But I see a new study :
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221444201930453X
Very interesting.
I want to test my sulphur theory next months . But I keep this HCG/Testo theory in memory . This is exactly my testosterone state (low free T bordeline total T ...)
-
I'm less present on the forum. But I see a new study :
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221444201930453X
Very interesting.
I want to test my sulphur theory next months . But I keep this HCG/Testo theory in memory . This is exactly my testosterone state (low free T bordeline total T ...)
I think HCG is very interesting.
-
Hi, I'm not here to promote this product but thought it be a good idea to inform about this product I found online claiming to contribute to normal testosterone levels. Maybe interesting for POISers with testosterone issues. It's interesting to read about the ingredients of this product named as Proxerex. I suppose it must be something newish.
Ingredients :
- L-arginine 2500 mg
- Propionyl-L-carnitine 250 mg
- Vitamin B3 (Niacin) 8 mg
- Acetyl-L-carniti ne 125 mg
- Cocoa flavanols 200 mg
- Maca 150 mg
- Zinc 10 mg
- Selenium 50 mcg
P.S: If you want to try this product I'd recommend you to first discus it with your doctor.
-
(https://d3pq5rjvq8yvv1.cloudfront.net/catalog/product/cache/1/image/262x300/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/i/cialis_20mg_tablets.jpg)
At POIS onset, I take 20mg of Cialis - - (double my normal dose).
Forum member Animus - - who underwent successful surgery for POIS - - and I share similar POIS theories: semen re-generation problems cause POIS.
Since TRT (my main POIS treatment) and Cialis stimulate arousal, I believe that - -
in turn - - the chemical stimulation of Cialis hastens my healthy semen re-generation.
-
(https://d3pq5rjvq8yvv1.cloudfront.net/catalog/product/cache/1/image/262x300/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/i/cialis_20mg_tablets.jpg)
At POIS onset, I take 20mg of Cialis - - (double my normal dose).
Forum member Animus - - who underwent successful surgery for POIS - - and I share similar POIS theories: semen re-generation problems cause our POIS.
Since TRT (my main POIS treatment) and Cialis stimulate arousal, I believe that - -
in turn - - the chemical stimulation of Cialis hastens my healthy semen re-generation.
This continues to work for me!
Recently did a 6-month treatment review with my POIS medical team. When I explained my theory above, it was deemed reasonable by their NP-C.
It’s about time! (I just recently turned 78).
-
(https://d3pq5rjvq8yvv1.cloudfront.net/catalog/product/cache/1/image/262x300/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/i/cialis_20mg_tablets.jpg)
At POIS onset, I take 20mg of Cialis - - (double my normal dose).
Forum member Animus - - who underwent successful surgery for POIS - - and I share similar POIS theories: semen re-generation problems cause our POIS.
Since TRT (my main POIS treatment) and Cialis stimulate arousal, I believe that - -
in turn - - the chemical stimulation of Cialis hastens my healthy semen re-generation.
This continues to work for me!
Recently did a 6-month treatment review with my POIS medical team. When I explained my theory above, it was deemed reasonable by their NP-C.
It’s about time! (I just recently turned 78).
I don't believe tadalafil has been mentioned in relation to prostatitis or at least its role has not been appreciated properly. It is clear that there is a strong association between POIS and CP/CPPS as well. As POIS possibly stems from a very severe autoimmune prostatitis, the following could be useful information.
Experimental autoimmune prostatitis (EAP) rats developed pelvic pain, prostatic inflammation and increased plasma IgG concentrations. Tadalafil inhibited the chronic pelvic pain and prostatic inflammation, suggesting that its anti-inflammatory action may contribute to its blocking of pain development in the EAP model.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/pros.23514
Tadalafil is sufficiently effective in the treatment of patients with benign prostatic hyperplasia and severe chronic prostatitis/chronic pelvic pain syndrome.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/iju.14122
Chronic prostatitis associated chronic pelvic pain syndrome (CP/CPPS) is one of the most common medical conditions in urology with estimated prevalence of 2.2–13.8% in men from different societies. The exact etiology of CP/CPPS is still not-completely recognized. Different reports referred to non-recognized bacterial infection, psychogenic factors, retrograde flow of urine in prostatic ducts or pelvic floor dysfunction as possible etiologies
The common pathophysiological pathways of sexual dysfunction and prostatic pain/voiding symptoms is not yet clear. Increased Rho-kinase activation and impaired nitric oxidase synthase in pelvic structure (including prostate and penis) may increase intraprostatic pressure and decrease smooth muscle relaxation of penile tissues causing prostatitis symptoms and erectile dysfunction, respectively. Also, autonomic hyperactivity, atherosclerosis and metabolic syndrome may play a main or a co-mechanism for prostate associated sexual dysfunction.
Based on previous pathways, PDE5-inhibitors could be expected to have a role in treatment of CP/CPPS. It was proven that tadalafil can down-regulate Rho-kinase activity. Rat model of chronic non-bacterial prostatitis had significantly suppressed pelvic pain and prostatic inflammation after tadalafil medications. Also, tadalafil can upregulate NO/cGMP resulting in reduced prostatic smooth muscles contractions. PDE5-inhibitors can also reduce atherosclerosis and inflammation by decreasing expression of various inflammatory markers.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00345-022-04074-4
There are also indications for dysregulation of Ca2+ homeostasis and PKC to be involved in POIS. Specifically lycopene is a PKC inhibitor that proved to be useful for several of us.
Rho-associated protein kinase (ROCK) is a kinase belonging to the AGC (PKA/ PKG/PKC) family of serine-threonine specific protein kinases. It is involved mainly in regulating the shape and movement of cells by acting on the cytoskeleton.
Protein kinase C and Rho-associated protein kinase are involved in regulating calcium ion intake; these calcium ions, in turn stimulate a myosin light chain kinase, forcing a contraction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rho-associated_protein_kinase
Grimsley and colleagues found that patients with erectile dysfunction treated with phosphodiesterase 5 inhibitors (PDE5) reported a concomitant improvement in their prostatitis symptoms; their paper advanced the hypothesis that the relaxation of prostatic duct smooth muscles, increasing wash-out of prostatic reflux products, could significantly reduce prostatic inflammation.
Nitric oxide synthase, required for NO formation, has been localized biochemically and immunohistochemically in the transitional and peripheral zone of the prostate, specifically in the nerve fibres and ganglia located in the prostatic smooth muscles. PDE5, the target of PDE5 inhibitors, has been localized in the transitional zone. Uckert and colleagues showed how PDE5 inhibitors reverse tension in prostatic smooth muscles, suggesting that both NO and PDE5 mediate smooth muscle relaxation.
Kirby and colleagues show a retrograde flow of urine into the prostatic ducts of transitional and peripheral zones in patients affected by prostatitis. This study suggested that urinary reflux was the primum movens for both bacterial and abacterial prostatitis.
We hypothesized that the good results in terms of pain reduction and improvement in the quality of life were due to smooth muscle relaxation in prostatic ducts. This could guarantee a greater wash-out of oxidant elements from prostatic tissue, reducing irritant urinary elements and consequent prostatic inflammation.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1756287218808677
Tadalafil for the treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia
Expert opinion: Preclinical and clinical data have clearly demonstrated that PDE5 inhibitors induce bladder and prostate relaxation, which contributes to the improvement seen in storage symptoms in both animal models of bladder and prostate hypercontractility. Tadalafil is effective both as a monotherapy and add-on therapy in patients with lower urinary tract symptoms (LUTS) secondary to benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). Furthermore, as LUTS-BPH and erectile dysfunction (ED) are urological disorders that commonly coexist in aging men, tadalafil is more advantageous than alpha1-adrenoceptors and should be used as the first option. Tadalafil is a safe and tolerable therapy and unlike alpha1- adrenoceptors and 5-alpha reductase inhibitors, which can cause sexual dysfunctions, tadalafil improves sexual function.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14656566.2019.1589452
Anti-inflammatory effect of tadalafil, a phosphodiesterase 5 (PDE5) inhibitor, in autoimmune prostatitis
Biochemical and immunohistochemical analyses using an inflammation-related proteome assay and immunostaining showed decreased levels of M-CSF, TREM-1, TIMP-1, CCL2, CCL3 and CXCL2 in tadalafil-treated mice compared with control mice.
Tadalafil has an inhibitory effect on tissue fibrosis and decreases cytokine levels after an inflammatory response. These results suggest that PDE5 inhibitors might be effective as therapy for prostatitis.
https://kwmed.repo.nii.ac.jp/records/3022
In this study, focused on the prostate, we examined the effect of tadalafil on the pathological changes and inflammatory factors in a rat nonbacterial prostatitis (NBP) model.
In the NBP group, the stroma-to-epithelium (S/E) ratio in the ventral prostate was significantly higher than in the control group. In the NBP-tadalafil group, the S/E ratio was significantly lower than in the NBP group. The macrophage levels and the extent of T-cell infiltration in the NBP-tadalafil group were significantly lower than in the NBP group. Compared with the NBP group, tissue concentrations of inflammatory cytokines, such as tumor necrosis factor-alpha, interleukin-8, and interleukin-1beta, were significantly downregulated in the NBP-tadalafil group.
Tadalafil suppressed stromal predominance and showed anti-inflammatory effects in a rat NBP model in association with downregulation of inflammatory cytokines.
Single or repeated dosing with tadalafil improves prostate hypoxia in spontaneously hypertensive rats. In the prostate of rabbits fed a high-fat diet, chronic tadalafil treatment produces inhibition of inflammation, fibrosis, and hypoxia.
IL-8 also seems to be a key mediator in human BPH: its concentrations in prostatic secretions from patients with BPH accompanied by inflammation are higher than in patients with BPH alone.
The latest evidence on the pathophysiology of LUTS/BPH has provided the rationale for use of PDE5-Inhibitors, which bring about improvement of LUT oxygenation, smooth muscle relaxation, negative regulation of proliferation, transdifferentiation of LUT stroma, and reduction of bladder afferent nerve activity.
It has been hypothesized that PDE5-Is could reduce inflammation and the associated fibrosis and improve oxygenation in the human prostate and bladder, with normalization of prostatic and bladder structural anatomy and physiologic activity.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12894-019-0525-x
-
Thank you, Progecitor!
-
(https://d3pq5rjvq8yvv1.cloudfront.net/catalog/product/cache/1/image/262x300/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/i/cialis_20mg_tablets.jpg)
At POIS onset, I take 20mg of Cialis - - (double my normal dose).
Forum member Animus - - who underwent successful surgery for POIS - - and I share similar POIS theories: semen re-generation problems cause POIS.
Since TRT (my main POIS treatment) and Cialis stimulate arousal, I believe that - -
in turn - - the chemical stimulation of Cialis hastens my healthy semen re-generation.
Dear Demografx,
Can you please elaborate on the semen re generation problem theory.
-
Dear Demografx,
Can you please elaborate on the semen re generation problem theory.
In my case (just my hunch since the forum began in 2007) I believe that the sluggishness of my semen re-generation, i.e., building back up of the semen supply after it’s been depleted via sex - - is somehow associated with my POIS: a very slow semen replenishment. During the refractory period.
In turn, I think that my weekly testosterone boost and Cialis at the time that my POIS begins , pushes my body into a more rapid, and therefore healthier restoration of semen, causing fewer POIS symptoms.
-
(https://d3pq5rjvq8yvv1.cloudfront.net/catalog/product/cache/1/image/262x300/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/i/cialis_20mg_tablets.jpg)
At POIS onset, I take 20mg of Cialis - - (double my normal dose).
Forum member Animus - - who underwent successful surgery for POIS - - and I share similar POIS theories: semen re-generation problems cause our POIS.
Since TRT (my main POIS treatment) and Cialis stimulate arousal, I believe that - -
in turn - - the chemical stimulation of Cialis hastens my healthy semen re-generation.
This continues to work for me!
Recently did a 6-month treatment review with my POIS medical team. When I explained my theory above, it was deemed reasonable by their NP-C.
It’s about time! (I just recently turned 78).
I just “survived” 2 POIS events in 2 days, without horrendous symptoms!
My POIS medical team’s NP-C just explained to me why Cialis might be responsible for greatly reducing one of my most distressing POIS symptoms: in POIS, all 10 of my fingertips’ nerve endings go “haywire” and cause me great psychic agony (hard to explain fully). Decades of mental pain, including useless treatment from a self-styled local “King of Dermatology” were…futile.
The NP-C explained to me that Cialis IMPROVES NERVE CONDUCTION!
That simple? Happy ending? Time will tell! :)
-
The NP-C explained to me that Cialis IMPROVES NERVE CONDUCTION!
NEVER TRUST AN NPC! ;)
-
The NP-C explained to me that Cialis IMPROVES NERVE CONDUCTION!
NEVER TRUST AN NPC! ;)
Why? (Can’t tell if you’re joking).
-
I was joking, I referred to a Non-Player Character (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPC_(meme)). Needed some laughs.
-
I was joking, I referred to a Non-Player Character (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPC_(meme)). Needed some laughs.
;D
-
[TRT + Cialis Update]
…I just “survived” 2 4 POIS events in 2 5 days, without horrendous symptoms!…
-
Edited
…Another interesting experiment could be the combination of Aspirin and Tadalafil [Cialis]…
Interesting, Progecitor!
Can you say more? (I take a nightly dose of 81mg aspirin per my cardiologist).
Of course I can't claim this combination to be necessarily useful, only that there are some empirical indications that it may be. It is even more difficult to say why it works exactly…
In my case, the tadalafil (Cialis) - - taken in the first 2-3 days of POIS - - improves nerve conduction
And that improvement, I believe, reverses a lifetime of one of my absolute worst POIS symptoms: all 10 fingertips became grossly “flared-up”, inexplicably causing me severe mental anguish.
My dermatologist told me that there are hundreds of thousands of nerve endings in our fingertips! (But sadly, my seeking dermatology/POIS treatment in the past proved to be futile).
To younger POISers: don’t give up. I’m 78 and just now might finally have found some additional POIS relief! (Testosterone is still my main POIS treatment, which I “discovered” for POIS - - as a result of this forum - - only when I was already in my 60’s).
But we are all much more fortunate today with POIS support!
-
How about a nerve conduction study?
-
How about a nerve conduction study?
Great idea! Wish we weren’t so cash strapped to do…..m o r e (like this).
-
[TRT + Cialis Update]
…I just “survived” 2 4 POIS events in 2 5 days, without horrendous symptoms!…
Yet another “successful” POIS morning!
Hard to believe, at my age, that I finally found a very effective anti-POIS method!
Worth waiting 60 years? No comment! ;D
-
Hi guys,Im Italian, this is the first time I've seen this topic and I've seen that it's mostly about testosterone, I've done blood tests and I have pretty good total and free testosterone, pero I did the tests 3 days after ejaculation, so I wasn't really in the serious pois state. What I want to know is whether some testosterone therapies can come in handy for me as well. Or do you guys do them just because you have low testosterone? Thank you
-
How about a nerve conduction study?
Great idea! Wish we weren’t so cash strapped to do…..m o r e (like this).
Can they do some testing on you?
-
I haven't read everything in this thread related to testosterone, but one definitely known link is low T and hot flashes. Apparently it is common with androgen deprivation therapy for prostate cancer, so the physiology is understood. However, I have not found any research related to general low T and hot flashes without androgen deprivation therapy for prostate cancer.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/hot-flashes-in-men-an-update
One thing that would be an interesting area of research would be to see if prostate cancer patients undergoing androgen deprivation therapy have more POIS symptoms than those not undergoing androgen deprivation therapy. Might not find any strong link since the body is all whacked out anyways during cancer treatment, but if a strong relationship is found, it could shed some light on how T plays a factor in POIS.
-
I intend this post to serve as a correction to all my above posts in this testosterone thread and elsewhere - - that enthusiastically ‘promoted’ the use of Benadryl (diphenhydramine) for POIS treatment. It did provide the relief that I described - - but the side effects are not worth it, especially at my age (78) and especially since cognitive decline is a challenge for me and many, many other POISers.
…I'm testing diphenhydramine at the moment.
Diphenhydramine worked minor miracles for me after my open heart surgery 12 yrs ago.
Unfortunately, I became addicted to it and even wound up in the ER/extended stay/hospital observation for excessive dosage use.
Nevertheless, I continued taking it in spite of *multiple* MD (primary care + specialists’) warnings - - warnings to avoid it - - even at moderate doses.
I’m now off it, and feel better for it. But my primary concern (cognitive impairment) might not be the same as yours.
A Harvard health study:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-drugs-like-benadryl-linked-increased-dementia-risk-201501287667
-
i havent read the whole post, so i dont know if that already been taken in consideration,
but it seems that abstinence (at least 3 weeks ) does produce elevated level of testosterone in males.
that means for a lot of poisers who are abstinent, a high level of testosterone could be normal but also that a normal lvl of testosterone could be considered as low
and probably many of us have missed this
and this could join my theory turning around an hormonal problem coming from a specific gland or directly from hypothalamus/pituitary problem
many poisers got hormonal disorders (testosterone / cortisol / thyroid hormones / prolactin / etc..)
and glands that produce those hormones (testicular glands / adrenal glands / thyroid glands / etc..) are all dependant from one thing : hypothalamus/pituitary glands (->see picture)
an accident / injury / infection / intoxication and for sure burnout / traumatic stress / chronic stress as many of us have, could affect and damage hypothalamus/pituitary and disrupt hormones production (too much or too less)
and the point here and and most important is that all thoses hormones also all interact with each others
for example :
cortisol stop/block testosterone production
dopamine supress prolactine
etc ...
so if only one thing is disrupted everything could be broken
that could explain why sometimes treatment like testosterone replacement therapy (for those who got this hormonal disorder) gives some result reducing their POIS symptoms but not for every one and not always 100%
if the problem come from an injured hypothalamus/pituitary that can't send normal order other gland and hormone production cant be affected
i havent doing thos research yet but,
is there some case of poisers doing some MRI (Magnetic resonance imaging) of hypothalamus/pituitary to check any injury ?
(https://www.superprof.fr/ressources/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/word-image-49-2048x1536.jpeg)
-
@demo and everyone who reads this :
I am 30 years old and POIS ruined my life ! I never wanted kids sincechildhood which makes me think I had depression/POIS since early age
I probably have the most severe complex case of POIS in this website..
I am self medicating like "limitbreaker" , all the doctors refused and what am I supposed to do ? agree and suffer ? or self medicate and stop suffering ?
I am aware of the risks , to hell with kids, why should I care to have kids when I am unable to live happily ? tried so many and none come to the effectiveness of high TRT. I am also thinking about trying "dianabol" for mood and joint pain which is famous for , micro dosing "trenbolone" for better CNS function, and proviron to see if it improves mood (SHBG mechanism)..
I tried dexamethasone 8mg injection, felt better but repeated injections can cause serious immune dysfunction.
When I am iN pois ? EVEN ritalin, stops working, my brain shuts down. coffee doesnt work nor nicotine
I am from north africa..no one here knows what POIS is .. I was always late in school , difficulty learning, depressed, POTS and sleeping 12 hours since childhood , I probably had this since early age , but no where near the age of 20 , FULL BLOWN POIS. HELL.
if I poop, sperm comes out , I get POIS
if I dont poop for a week I feel like a million bucks !!
I was eating 1 meal a day just to poop less , because the more I poop , I leak sperm and I don't allow my body to recover , basically never ending POIS....to hell with kids and doctors. TRT ..and maybe XOLAIR if available...currently trying to find it ..no success
I read yourbodybuilder post about 800mg dose that wiped out his pois
can you detail , is it 800 daily or weekly ? does he use any other compounds like trenbolone that are known for increasing CNS activation which is exactly the opposite of what POIS does
I had 600 ng/dl , which is more than normal
I took 200 mgs per week of TRT and after weeks I felt 70% better , it put me at 1400ng/dl
currently I am on 250 and wonder if 500 per week would get me to 100% remission
hypothetically , suupose that 500 per week is the answer
I am well educated and a bodybuilder my self
more testosterone would mean health risks and monitoring is required , namely increased blood viscosity through high hematocrit (erythropoesis) does anyone know how sustainable this solution is if I donate blood every 3 months to reduce high hematocrit ?
I know some people on youtube who are on 500mg for years like "milo sarcev" he is over 50 years
lipid levels can be monitored too and improved through cardio but my GOD!! if 500 was the answer !!
I asked my doctor about silodosin to help stop leaking sperm while pooping he sais it doesnt prevent it.
Does anyone know which medication can help close the leaking of sperm while pooping ?
-
@demo and everyone who reads this :
I am 30 years old and POIS ruined my life ! I never wanted kids sincechildhood which makes me think I had depression/POIS since early age
I probably have the most severe complex case of POIS in this website..
I am self medicating like "limitbreaker" , all the doctors refused and what am I supposed to do ? agree and suffer ? or self medicate and stop suffering ?
I am aware of the risks , to hell with kids, why should I care to have kids when I am unable to live happily ? tried so many and none come to the effectiveness of high TRT. I am also thinking about trying "dianabol" for mood and joint pain which is famous for , micro dosing "trenbolone" for better CNS function, and proviron to see if it improves mood (SHBG mechanism)..
I tried dexamethasone 8mg injection, felt better but repeated injections can cause serious immune dysfunction.
When I am iN pois ? EVEN ritalin, stops working, my brain shuts down. coffee doesnt work nor nicotine
I am from north africa..no one here knows what POIS is .. I was always late in school , difficulty learning, depressed, POTS and sleeping 12 hours since childhood , I probably had this since early age , but no where near the age of 20 , FULL BLOWN POIS. HELL.
if I poop, sperm comes out , I get POIS
if I dont poop for a week I feel like a million bucks !!
I was eating 1 meal a day just to poop less , because the more I poop , I leak sperm and I don't allow my body to recover , basically never ending POIS....to hell with kids and doctors. TRT ..and maybe XOLAIR if available...currently trying to find it ..no success
I read yourbodybuilder post about 800mg dose that wiped out his pois
can you detail , is it 800 daily or weekly ? does he use any other compounds like trenbolone that are known for increasing CNS activation which is exactly the opposite of what POIS does
I had 600 ng/dl , which is more than normal
I took 200 mgs per week of TRT and after weeks I felt 70% better , it put me at 1400ng/dl
currently I am on 250 and wonder if 500 per week would get me to 100% remission
hypothetically , suupose that 500 per week is the answer
I am well educated and a bodybuilder my self
more testosterone would mean health risks and monitoring is required , namely increased blood viscosity through high hematocrit (erythropoesis) does anyone know how sustainable this solution is if I donate blood every 3 months to reduce high hematocrit ?
I know some people on youtube who are on 500mg for years like "milo sarcev" he is over 50 years
lipid levels can be monitored too and improved through cardio but my GOD!! if 500 was the answer !!
From my friend:
“The 800mg I take is weekly. I feel of all the testosterone products that Propinate works the best. It’s in and out of the system in 3 days. It also works well if you have two orgasms close together(one or two days) you can double your dose for a few days and get relief. Like you my natural test was fine. But the higher dosage of test completely wiped out my brain fog and lethargy. This was a godsend for me because I run my own business and I had to sleepwalk through meetings for years. I pushed it and had 3 or 4 orgasms in a week and the only side effect I had was real sore joints. But no mental side effects which is huge for me. I feel like POIS gave me a mental disorder so this success was huge for me. I also recommend a 2mg dose of HCG everyday and 2mg of HGH. If your a bodybuilder you will know where to get it. I strongly recommend staying away from Trenbalone. Yes, it would work as well as Testosterone but it will destroy your organs. Testosterone may have negative effects on your heart but has not shown to have alot of negative effects on your organs. Many people get irreversable damage from Trenbalone when Testosterone will do the job. Good luck”
-
Many thanks to you and your friend.
what about dianabol for mood ?
I tried recombinant LH (hcg) 6000 units !! the day before orgasm...didn't help ...
I'll see if HGH will do the trick..
@demo and evryone else .. : do you know which med can help stop sperm leaking while poop ? meaning to sort of close the valves ?
I was abstaining for years and years and maybe pelvic floor muscles got weak (can't strengthen them )
also with regards ro "dexamethasone" how frequently can I use it without damaging my immune system ? leaflet says recurrent injections may cause low cortisol
also any sleeping meds that help insomnia that don't disturb "deep sleep REM sleep" ?
-
dexamethasone vs trt, which one helped you more? @sartre02
-
TRT for sure
dexamethasone is dangerous !! it should be used only in EXTREME RARE cases , the leaflet says repeated use can cause low cortisol and basically it kills your immune system and you will depend on it for life ! plus it may affect and cause severe depression..
honestly dexamthasone in the morning it made me feel good , and at night it gave me anxiety..
it makes sense.. half life is 4 hours...and can remain for up to 12 hours in system or more
I took injection 8 mg
I recommend you try xolair its far better I heard, Im looking for it currently
Dexa is so dangerous that I stopped it
prednisone I took 30mg day to see any improvement..better but not enough..
dexa and prednisone can shut down the immune system ,
I am going to try 500mg TESTOSTERONE PER WEEK and see if the dopamine/anti inflammation properties can beat pois..
I dont recommend 500 to anyone, unless you know what you are doing, a lot of blood work needs to be monitored , but with pois ? to hell with fertility ...whats the point of existing and not being functional
I read many reddit posts corrected by wellbutrin , it makes sense that POIS may be a deficiency of adrenaline norepinephrine..
I would love to see what people like @demografx and @Quantum have to say about this..
I was always sleeping 10/12 hours per night since childhood..and even that not refreshed
this is where HIGH TRT CAN PLAY !
it makes you recover quicker , muscle synthesis , cns recovery, neuron recovery , dopamine synthesis and high estrogen causes some anxiety and more CNS activation giving you that get up and go...which is not curing pois but definitely OVERRIDES it...
Proviron/arimidex can help with estrogen control
-
Every POISER needs to know this....if you tried everything to no avail and you did not cure POIS , think about TRT..even if you have normal levels...
I had more than enough , and after pois , my brain does not respond to coffee its like drinking water
and after TRT , coffee works..and I drink faaar less.
I am 30 years male , I had 600ng/dl...
with TRT 200mg/ week I was at 1400ng/dl
it's not a cure....but its the best patch you can find
doctors refused to give me TRT
I am a bodybuilder , I have other ways to get TRT
if you want fertility...and you accept to suffer just to have kids...thats your choice..
I don't have time for this s**t
but I know bodybuilders who take TONS of steroids for YEARS !! and manage to get kids anyway...see ronnie coleman , dorian yates..
POISERS NEED TO KNOW THAT TRT CAN HELP THEM
I cannot believe people end their lives and not give TRT a try...
some say , you cannot promote TRT and start talking about all medical legitimacy...
Oh and suicide is better ?!!!
how about SSRIs that can permanently mess up the neurochemistry...?
I tried prozac before , it gave me permanent indigestion , years now after stopping it ! and I still have it !
-*****
if you are going to try TRT...you will see a difference in 6 weeks but it takes 3 months to see full anti inflammation/dopamine effect
and it after this time you don't see a difference , perhaps you are a hyporesponder , medically speaking some people require 500mg per week to reach 1200ng/dl which is TRT but these are rare cases of a defect in RNA transcription
give it at least 3 months...
lower estrogen to 20-30 pg/dl ...high estrogen prevents from feeling full effect. I take1/4 of 1mg for 200mg per week , if you take arimidex and you feel bad ,it means you crushed you estrogen too low , arimidex is extremely powerful and potent , try lowest dose possible and dont use it in the beginning , only after 3 months if you don't see a difference.
TRT needs to be dialed in , but when it works !! boy !!!! you feel on top of the world. of course , cardio and healthy eating is needed
I used to smoke and it blocked the effect of TRT
quit , dont take any form of nicotine to feel the full of effect of TRT
you may feel insomnia in the beginning but thats normal because of the insane amount of energy you are getting...after a while your body gets used to it.
if you still dont feel TRT , check your SHBG levels if too high , lower them using proviron
if you get acne, don't take accutane , its too risky , just lower your fat/oily food intake and give it 6 months you will not break out anymore , people need to know , that acne in TRT is only a result of the SUDDEN shift in hormones
now Im at 8 months TRT and feel 80 % better if not more
if you still can't feel TRT after 3 months , make sure you test/supplmenet DHEA/PREGNENOLONE/HCG
HGH I also heard 2 units per day is effective ! @demo can chime in
-
Funny note : I had the idea of TRT after eating 3-5 red raw onions like apples ! NOT CHOPPED ! eat them as quick as possible do not let them evaporate the gases , and eat them on empty stomach with a very small glass of water before hand
if you drink too much water, it comes into contact with acid and you lose benefits
if you do as I said ! next day you will have POIS vanish
ps : the more you blow your nose , the more effective ! it seems some way of clearing out toxins
it worked for years for me..
I researched , onions stimulate FSH/LH
fsh/lh create TESTOSTERONE
TRT miracle
ps : I had good functioning FSH/LH prior
-
I cannot believe people end their lives and not give TRT a try...
that acne in TRT is only a result of the SUDDEN shift in hormones
Two points I like in your post.
Every thing is better than suicide.
And acne after ejaculation can be explained by the hormones schift, very good job.
-
…I cannot believe people end their lives…
…Every thing is better than suicide…
TWO (2) MENTAL HEALTH RESOURCES FOR ANYONE NEEDING SUPPORT IN A CRISIS.
[1.]
I texted the Suicide Prevention Hotline
(by texting Hello to 741741) to test their system.
It works well.
They also offered me this description to post @ POISCenter:
"We are a support line for all ages, providing free, 24/7 crisis support through text messaging. Learn more at:
For more texting info:
https://bit.ly/CTLfaq_ref
For telephone chat:
Click here:
1.800.273.8255
(http://static-34.sinclairstoryline.com/resources/media/0e95fa94-2b2d-4345-b320-e41c96859023-large16x9_SuicidePreventionLifeline.jpg?1536623005052)
For list Of International Suicide Hotlines:
http://www.suicide.org/international-suicide-hotlines.html
[2.]
988 (telephone#) is a new system (U.S.) that recently went live to help people reach help in a mental health crisis.
-
Quote from NSF/POIS thread forum member:
“Every day before breakfast and lunch, 1x57g capsule of Taurine and magnesium 900mg with a bit of water (room temp),”
Quote from b_jim:
Taurine is the KEY of my Pois. It makes a HUGE difference.
It's like if taurine is "pumped" after ejaculation to "regenerate" something (testosterone ? semen ?).
But you made a mistake in dose, 1x57g is not correct :)
b_jim, I saw this old post from our predecessor-forum, The Naked Scientists Forum/POIS thread, in 2015.
Has your view of taurine changed? What is the suggested dosage today please?
-
No, I didn't change my point of view : after 10 years of taurine supplementation, this is the best supplement for my Pois.
500mg is enough, 100-200g of fish makes the job.
But I have to be honest, we are only 5 to 10 guys here to have a real improvement with taurine.
So we may have an innate (genetic?) problem with taurine biosynthesis.
And then the lack of taurine is the limiting factor of the real cause of Pois : hormone or neurotransmitter falling after O .
-
Even though I can't believe it could work, I'm testing cold showers every morning :P
-
No, I didn't change my point of view : after 10 years of taurine supplementation, this is the best supplement for my Pois.
500mg is enough, 100-200g of fish makes the job.
But I have to be honnest, we are only 5 to 10 guys here to have a real improvement with taurine.
So we may have an innate (genetic?) problem with taurine biosynthesis.
And then the lack of taurine is the limiting factor of the real cause of Pois : hormone or neurotransmitter falling after O .
Many thanks, b_jim!
And thank you very much again for being a rock-solid supporter of
Forum Ideas for POIS Treatment
since February, 2007, the very first days of our forum!
(https://thmbs.imgag.com/unsafe/adaptive-fit-in/1040x1040/https%3A%2F%2Fimages.salsify.com%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fq_70%2Frny9t8i0g8i6wap5yt82.jpg)
-
Even though I can't believe it could work, I'm testing cold showers every morning :P
(https://y.yarn.co/492e883e-bca2-47ec-8fbe-7b6ff93121c8_text.gif)
-
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/P0KvEH-RLjM/maxresdefault.jpg)
I’m vacationing for the month of August, so my new POIS doctors prescribed this for self-injecting my testosterone while traveling! (No nurse required ;D)
I thought I was too fearful to self-inject, but this [new method] is sooooo easy & 100% painless, safe & foolproof!! (You never see the needle!).
And no, I’m not an advertising spokesperson for the product! ;D
My insurance co. (Medicare +etc.) FINALLY approved (not easily!!) with a $25 monthly co-pay. Till now, I’ve been spending outrageous sum$ with Uber to get injected at my POIS doctors’ clinic.
Great “holiday present” for me! :)
Quantum, it’s still working! ;D ;D
-
AVOID FREQUENT COLD SHOWERS , when my POIS was so severe, a cold shower was exrtremely effective , it was like an immunity boost , but too much and you will build a tolerance and an ice cold shower will not do anything for it !
dont forget, we share this with CFS people , pace ! avoid too much CNS stimulation !
I still leak sperm when I poop
anyone knows which medication can stop leaking sperm ? cause I get POIS when I poop ! so badly I used to eat one meal a day and not drink water and dehydrate my self on purpose to achieve not pooping for 1 week , only to give me time to have relief !! if I poop , I get pois again through sperm leaking
anyone knows which medication can stop leaking sperm ?
-
…500mg [of taurine] is enough, 100-200g of fish makes the job…
b_jim, when to take it? How often? How long a trial to see if it works for my POIS??
-
500mg at least 1 or 2 hours before.
How often is hard to say. 1 to 7 times a week.
-
…500mg [of taurine] is enough, 100-200g of fish makes the job…
b_jim, when to take it? How often? How long a trial to see if it works for my POIS??
500mg at least 1 or 2 hours before.
How often is hard to say. 1 to 7 times a week.
Thanks, b_jim!
-
I tried nicotine in all forms : cigarettes, vape , snus...everytime it makes me feel lethargic and makes me feel like shit ONLY twice in YEARS after 2 BIG CARB MEALS after two hours I smoked a cigarette and it gave the desired effect which is dopamine and cns stimulation I felt motivated , it appears that I have an issue with brain glucose metabolisation ...which doctor specialty is concerned with this ?
-
AVOID FREQUENT COLD SHOWERS , when my POIS was so severe, a cold shower was exrtremely effective , it was like an immunity boost , but too much and you will build a tolerance and an ice cold shower will not do anything for it !
dont forget, we share this with CFS people , pace ! avoid too much CNS stimulation !
I still leak sperm when I poop
anyone knows which medication can stop leaking sperm ? cause I get POIS when I poop ! so badly I used to eat one meal a day and not drink water and dehydrate my self on purpose to achieve not pooping for 1 week , only to give me time to have relief !! if I poop , I get pois again through sperm leaking
anyone knows which medication can stop leaking sperm ?
I do not abuse of this, just some minutes and only "strategic areas" (not the whole body) :)
-
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/P0KvEH-RLjM/maxresdefault.jpg)
Experimentally, before my last POIS attack, I self-injected testosterone a day earlier than weekly schedule - - which was one day before POIS onset - - and recovered from POIS much sooner!
My POIS doctor said that the day after injecting is the peak of testosterone-blood concentration.
After ejaculation, the body sees a drop in testosterone, so my theory is that injecting-before-POIS offsets the damage.
-
I'm actually thinking of getting off testosterone for a while, soon. Getting some labs taken once it's out of my system and then reassess my own situation with a GP if my testosterone levels still fall below the reference range.
At the dosage I take, there has been little damage, my testicles temporarlily shurnk because of high estradiol levels, but now they are back to pre trt size.
I'm looking to do this becuase I have found greater benefit with just HCG rather than testosterone, worst case scenario, I can stay on HCG I don't have a problem, it's not as harmful as test either, time will tell, I'll be looking to do this once I complete my degree, over the summer, which I haven't even done anywork this year so far ::) Thanks to POIS...
Hi there are you still using this treatment?
Thanks
Neil