Testosterone

[Nas]

Any thoughts on trying to use supplements instead ?

[certainlypois2]

what supplements,i dont think there are any fda approved or scientificially backed supplements that increase testosterone.

[Nas]

I read once in an article that there are, and I suspected that they are the same ones that are used for body building.
Idk, if there aren't any then that sucks.

[demografx]

I don't think there are any

Perhaps Quantum knows more.

EDIT Please see Quantum's post today (also re-posted below FYI):
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2289.msg20525#msg20525

[demografx]

Cross-posted from another thread

Hey, Quantum.
So lately I've be thinking about the possibility of Testosterone being the reason for Auto-immune attacks against the semen, but the thing is that the only known method to increase Testosterone is by TRT, and TRT is known for its bad effects on the heart and you saw what happened to Demo. So I was thinking, is there any way that we can increase testosterone with out using the TRT method ? where it's effective enough against POIS but doesn't carry heavy side effects ?

Hi Nas,

There are many things that can be done to help optimize your testosterone level.  This has been looked into a lot, especially by the fitness community.  If you make a critical review of many medical and fitness websites, you wiil find the following consensus:

- maintaining appropriate level of vitamin D  ( 1000ui of Vitamin D a day is a safe dose and appropriate dose).  The form usable by humans is vitamin D3

- maintaining appropriate levels of zinc   ( zinc supplements often causes nausea, my favorite source of zinc is, by far, pumpkin seeds and sesame seeds - and they make a great snack  - and organic, for sure, whenever possible )

- losing excess weight

- intensity and strength exercises  ( it is the "use it or lose it" principle)

- avoiding all refined sugars  ( a good thing in itself, it is no good for anything, healthwise)

- eat healthy fats, that are used as building blocks for testosterone  ( olive oil, coconut oil, avocados,...) and avoid bad fats.

These are scientific based recommendations, and ways to optimize your own testosterone production.  For example, it is known that hypogonadism can be caused by a zinc depletion.  If you make sure you have enough zinc, you support your testosterone production.

(For a sample of website with a list of such recommendations, see http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/archive/2012/07/27/increase-testosterone-levels.aspx .  )


On the supplement side, some members report relief with a herb called tongkat ali  ( go to forum homepage and put "tongkat ali" in the upper left search box). I don't know much about this one, but good results have been mentioned, especially if combined with zinc.


On the prescription only side, clomiphene ( Clomid) is an alternative to TRT.  Less side effects, but it is quite hard on the liver, and if you read my latest post on liver detoxification, you will know that any med toxic for the liver is not optimal for anyone, and surely not for someone with POIS  ( see at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2431.msg20521#msg20521 about liver detoxification)   .  Note that clomiphene is known for treatment of infertility, but chances are your general practitioner may not know about it boosting testosterone levels.  On the long run, you have to decide which one between TRT and clomiphene would be a "lesser bad".  After all, that's why prescription only drugs are prescription only, don't they?

Raising the immune tolerance, as testosterone does, to whatever antigen we have in either the prostate or seminal glands or bulbourethral glands, is what I think is effective in TRT for POIS.  So raising T should help.  It's not the only issue in POIS, but one way to attack this multi-headed beast.

[demografx]

In light of my recent & very dangerous fainting episodes + my emergency pacemaker surgery, I think it's worth repeating: I've already started to reduce my testosterone dosage.
Significantly!

Special thanks to joelawerence for raising the issue.
Demo

[joelawerence]

In light of my recent & very dangerous fainting episodes + my emergency pacemaker surgery, I think it's worth repeating: I've already started to reduce my testosterone dosage.
Significantly!

Special thanks to joelawerence for raising the issue.
Demo

NP . Hope you are getting better now.

[demografx]

Neurologist office test (memory, etc) today went very well. But no driving for 6 months

I hate it, it's the law, but it's prudent I think.

[demografx]

Cross-posted from crushgrapes' thread, "I'm willing to be your next TRT test subject"
« on: February 25, 2017, 07:01:32 PM
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=7vb1r5o5s4065hnjiqh2u28ps1&topic=2434.msg20584#new

Introduction
Have POIS for the most of my life and previously I never knew what this condition was called until not too long ago. Before I knew about the Waldinger recent study from 2016, I met my PCP and mentioned the symptoms from criterium/cluster I to her, what she was able to do was give me psychiatrist referral... Recently I've been taking this seriously and hope I can find a solution that would work long term. Like most of you here, after reading for a bit you already know that there is no easy solutions, some work, some don't, some temporarily. I tried many methods mentioned but none of them works except curcumin, zma, intermittent fasting but not doable on the long term which I will explain why later. The only time I felt like I was cured is when I on vacation overseas. 2 weeks within the city and 2 weeks on the country side, the only time I felt the best when I was at the country side where I was under the sun most of the time. But why?

Testosterone?
There many articles that indicates that people with low Vitamin D have low testosterone, which I do based on my several old blood test that has Vitamin D level of 11 pg/ml so ok I'm thinking all I have to do is up my Vitamin D intake. But my recent lab report from pcp checkup my levels were at 63 pg/ml and I still have POIS.

Going back to the vacation where I spent 4 weeks. The 2 weeks I was at the country side and during under the sun I never felt this good in my life. What I mean is that I can virtually eat anything I want with no adverse effects such as bad skin or acne. I do have a1c level at the pre diabetes range which I suspect comes from having low testosterone. My skin had bit of tan and was also glowing with no blemishes, it seems that my skin was healing very well and of course no POIS. I'm not surprised if the sun increased my testosterone and at the same time fixed my insulin levels.

The 4 weeks was like this,

• Week 1 - Walk around city, bad skin, have pois
• Week 2 and 3 - Walk around country side, good skin, no pois
• Week 4 - Walk around city, bad skin, brain fog

 

So what I see here the only major difference was that during city sightseeing I was always within the shadows of skyscrapers or building where as country side I was always within the sun light. The only reason I can think of is the increase of testosterone from the sun and as you read previously my Vitamin D levels are in range. I did more research and found out that Vitamin D supplements and Vitamin D from the sun are different, the D comes the sun is actually Vitamin D sulfate. I wasn't too sure but then I found a user that had similar experience that he felt much healthier when sun bathe but not through supplementation. It's 5 pages but its a very good read. His final solution was tanning which I don't think it was a good ideal.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/forum/the-primal-blueprint-forum-discussion/primal-blueprint-nutrition/98407-the-importance-of-sunlight-and-how-vitamin-d-supps-are-no-substitute

Most of my work and activities 90% of the are done indoors so there no way I would achieve any benefits from the sun due to the limited amount of time. I also live in the north east.

Waldinger Study
Thanks for Waldinger for the comprehensive study.

I agree with a lot of stuff he says in the study. I fall into the first category of POIS symptoms. I have several other form allergies presented. I have PE. I'm also especially agree with his conclusion about the pro inflammatory cytokines. Now check this out, this purely my individual experience. My lips/cheeks are a good indicator if I have inflammatory because I can feel it with my tongue that its swollen by swirling my inner cheeks, appearance is minuscule to the eye but definitely can feel. But each time I have a O, then you can see its swollen. I believe that I already have elevated inflammation and POIS would just exacerbates it further. Meaning that when I was at the country side POIS free, my lips/cheeks feel and look 100% percent normal.

Labs

I used it to compared to one of member who used zrt lab test named EDS for reference, last I read that he is on trt. There are a list of users from Demografx with members who also uses trt, I also saw Animus listed but looks like he did an operation? But anyways here my test below,

Me @ 2-3 days after O
Testosterone (Saliva) 110 pg/mL 44-148 (Age Dependent)
Cortisol (Saliva) 2.4 L ng/mL 3.7-9.5 (morning)
Cortisol (Saliva) 2.2 ng/mL 1.2-3.0 (noon)
Cortisol (Saliva) 0.5 L ng/mL 0.6-1.9 (evening)
Cortisol (Saliva) 0.4 ng/mL 0.4-1.0 (night)
Estradiol (Blood Spot) 38 pg/mL 12-56
Testosterone (Blood Spot) 229 L ng/dL 400-1200 (Age Dependent)
Ratio: T/SHBG (Blood Spot) N/A .7 - 1.0
DHEAS (Blood Spot) 245 ?g/dL 70-325
SHBG (Blood Spot) <15 L nmol/L 15-50
PSA (Blood Spot) <0.5 ng/mL <0.5-4 (optimal 0.5-2)
Free T4 (Blood Spot)* 1.7 ng/dL 0.7-2.5
Free T3 (Blood Spot) 3.6 pg/mL 2.5-6.5
TSH (Blood Spot) 0.5 ?U/mL 0.5-3.0
TPOab (Blood Spot)* 20 IU/mL 0-150 (70-150 borderline)

As you can see my testosterone is low at 229, low SHBG, upper range of estradiol. This is when I feel the worse. I have another lab where I have no sexy time for 3 months, look below.

3 Month No O
Testosterone 337.3 ng/dL  249.0-836.0
TSH 0.76 uIU/mL 0.27-4.20
Cortisol AM 12.3 ug/dL 6.2-19.4
HGB A1C 5.7 % H 4.0-5.6

So it seems like my base testosterone is at low 300. High a1c, normal cortisol. I still think my testosterone is too low but my endocrinologist says otherwise. I weight 130 at 5'9.

My Saliva Test @ 2-3 days after O
17-OHP, SALIVA, AM 45.4 H 19.5 - 25.9 pg/ml
ANDROSTENEDIONE,SALIVA,AM 155 H 7 - 89 pg/ml

Here you see that my androstenedione or DHT is high. This is probably why some people who O also have acne flares. If you look at the acne.org forum, members also question does sex/masturbation causes acne. What I read so far is that release of prolactin also increases dht and that increase/cause acne.

I have another blood result coming up that includes wider spectrum of different tests, I will update that once comes through.

EDS
15 minutes before ?O? at 10:00 pm ?       result = normal @ 0.4 (range 0.4 ? 1.0)
15 minutes after at 10:45pm ?          result = low @ 0.2 (range 1.2 ? 3.0)
The next morning - 9 hours after at 7:00 am ?    result = low @ 3.3 (range 3.7 ? 9.5)
The next evening - 23 hours after at 9:00 pm ?    result = low @ 0.1 (range 0.6 ? 1.9)
Estradiol ? result = high @ 58 (range 12 -56)
Testosterone ? result = low @ 342 (range 400 ? 1200)
Ratio T/SHBG ? result = low @ 0.3 (range 0.7 ? 1.0)
DHEAS ? result = normal @ 125 (range 70 ? 325
SHBG ? result = normal @ 36 (range 15 ? 50)
PSA ? result = normal @ 1.1 (range <0.5 ? 4)
Free T4 ? result = normal @ 0.7 ? 2.5)
Free T3 ? result = normal @ 3.4 (range 2.5 ? 6.5)
TSH ? result = normal @ 3.0 (range 0.5 ? 3.0)
TPO ? result = high @ 380 (range 0 ? 150 w/70 being borderline)

https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg264567#msg264567

Supplements and Fasting

• Zinc
• Curcmin
• Intermittent Fasting
• Honorable mention - Saw Palmetto

Zinc - Reports comes in that zinc increases testosterone but I not sure it makes a significant impact on my test levels or through any supplementation. But I do believe that zinc is anti inflammatory cause it does work for me but temporarily for few hours. Normal lips/check and good skin.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3407988/

Curcumin -  Also works like zinc and also temporarily and effects diminishes over time.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3753829/

Intermittent Fasting - I know this one does work but I'm not sure where the benefit is coming from cause there are contradictions that fasting decreases testosterone. But also at the same time I read reports that it decrease inflammation and increase testosterone. I can only keep up with fasting for several days because I would lose weight eating at lower calories, some reason if I eat the same calories as pre fasting it would not work. And I prefer not to lose any more weight since I'm already skinny as is.
https://authoritynutrition.com/10-health-benefits-of-intermittent-fasting/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Pituitary-testicular+axis+in+obese+men+during+short-term+fasting.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3106181

Saw Palmetto - Reduces dht by reducing ar5 that converts from testosterone to dht. Makes my skin 10 years younger but I don't use it anymore since there are sides effects if you get your dht too low. People usually use this to help with hair loss. Does not help with inflammation cytokines or testosterone for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%CE%B1-Reductase_inhibitor

My Opinion
What I mentioned so far is purely based on my experience. I think by having low testosterone causes an increase of inflammation. For me, my base level was at low 300 and after an O, my level goes down to low 200 and from there my lips/cheek swells indicating a release of inflammation coming from the O. And all that other nasty stuff that comes with it. This is how I concluded that by taking trt will help my POIS issue as I seen it worked for other people as well. I know that trt can causes infertility but I can use HCG to keep them at bay, I know it doesn't guarantee to work but I'm willing to try.

I wonder why Dr.Waldinger does not mention TRT since his website mentions that TRT has prevented POIS some members here but on his recent study he doesn't say anything about testosterone.
edit - My mistake, not his website.
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Inflammation.aspx
http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2012/6/testosterone-controversy/page-01

My Next Step
I made a appointment with a allergist to see what she has to say. I'm not sure what she can do besides doing more test, perhaps test to confirm inflammation issues. From there hopefully she  can prescribe me trt or refer me to a endo or uro who is willing to help. If not, I will have to go through clinics. I will update once I get any news from the from full panel trt blood test. I might missed something here or there but do feel free to ask if something doesnt make sense.

Thanks, crushgrapes! I spoke with Dr. Waldinger after his 2011 report came out: he had no idea why TRT works for me.
Demo

[dr-brahim]

hi guys,
i have after each orgasm a terrible headache, and those last days nearly a month i have a low sex drive, do you have an explanation for this and did you experience such these symptom's?

[crushgrapes]

Still waiting for my testosterone results that was taken last Saturday and docs appointment on Monday.

@demografx
I read that the trt injections did not work for you and therefore you went with the adroderm patches. What kind of injection protocol were you on? If I do have low testosterone, I might try to go for daily sub q injections opposed to bi injections per week which is the standard protocol. This is based what I researched on that a person with low SHBG will do fair better with frequent injections and sine the injections are spread out, this should lower spikes and mimics the natural body testosterone output.

And also the members that you listed that were on trt, I would assume they initially have low testosterone to begin with. Is the correct.

[crushgrapes]

@demografx

It's no problem, didn't realize that you were on TRT for that long lol. btw, is there anything you have to look out for during the time of your TRT?

Spoke with the allergist, shes not sure about the POIS but she told to check with a urologist. Seeing them can be a hit or miss and hesitant to put me on TRT due to my age / testosterone not low enough. I can confirm that I have a bunch of allergies that came up through the skin prick test that coincide with Waldingers study.

[Nas]

Hey Demo,
Why you don't consider it a 100% solution, do you still get POIS with ejaculation ? 

[demografx]

Hi, crushgrapes, the injections were so long ago (10 years?), I really don't recall what the "Rx" was.

And 2nd question, about other TRT users at the forums, I don't think they posted their blood test results.

Sorry to disappoint.

I'm really glad you're looking at "spiking" + "mimicking the natural testosterone process". Very important in my view. And my endocrinologist's.

[demografx]

crushgrapes writes: "...didn't realize that you were on TRT for that long lol. btw, is there anything you have to look out for during the time of your TRT?"

I've written it all here at this thread and @ https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.new#new . It's been about 7 years on patches (poor results with injections & the urologist, so I temporarily stopped my TRT -- until I consulted the endo who put me on patches). Careful with testicular shrinkage (I escaped that side effect) and fertility: I'm not 100% sure if it was TRT or not, but my semen analysis (a special test) a few years ago showed Zero Sperm Count.. OK with me...I'm happy with the size of my family

You can read about my heart probs (possible cardiac side effects), but not sure if it's genetic and/or TRT. But anyone interested in TRT should consult carefully with their docs about testosterone, it's a powerful drug!

Anyway, my GP & I just cut my dose in half.

Many thanks,
Demo

Edited 3/7/17

[demografx]

For those interested in TRT--

Testosterone therapy's benefits and risks
By Susan Scutti, CNN

February 21, 2017

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/21/health/testosterone-therapy-study/

[crushgrapes]

@demografx

I saw that thenakedscientist forum and was really impressed how big the thread was, it's great that people are in it to figure out the manifestation of POIS.
Thanks for the advice, I did wanted to go on TRT with those advisory in mind. I don't mind running into minor risk as long the benefits outweighs them but I do have to be mindful about the bigger ones.  I hope you're still doing fine by dividing your doses.

So I got some updates. My labs came back in the low 200 for testosterone. I actually went a head and brought it to another urologist and he told me he heard about this before and it was rare. He did mention that his theory was that I already have low testosterone and by orgasm it would cause further drop in testosterone causing POIS. He wants me to do another blood draw so we'll see how that goes. If anyone is interested or in the NYC area I can refer you to him, just give me a PM.

-edit- I don't know if I can just put his name here, the only reason so far I'm willing to mention his name is that he acknowledges POIS. I'm currently under his diagnose so no final result yet. I will update if I have any new info.

[demografx]

EXCELLENT that your urologist acknowledges POIS!

My big-city urologists were disappointingly clueless.

Back then I thought, naively,  "SURELY they must know all about POIS!"

[certainlypois2]

@demografx

I saw that thenakedscientist forum and was really impressed how big the thread was, it's great that people are in it to figure out the manifestation of POIS.
Thanks for the advice, I did wanted to go on TRT with those advisory in mind. I don't mind running into minor risk as long the benefits outweighs them but I do have to be mindful about the bigger ones.  I hope you're still doing fine by dividing your doses.

So I got some updates. My labs came back in the low 200 for testosterone. I actually went a head and brought it to another urologist and he told me he heard about this before and it was rare. He did mention that his theory was that I already have low testosterone and by orgasm it would cause further drop in testosterone causing POIS. He wants me to do another blood draw so we'll see how that goes. If anyone is interested or in the NYC area I can refer you to him, just give me a PM.

-edit- I don't know if I can just put his name here, the only reason so far I'm willing to mention his name is that he acknowledges POIS. I'm currently under his diagnose so no final result yet. I will update if I have any new info.

Nice

[demografx]

@demografx

I hope you're still doing fine by dividing your doses.

It's going well.