Author Topic: I'm willing to be your next TRT test subject  (Read 3847 times)

crushgrapes

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I'm willing to be your next TRT test subject
« on: February 25, 2017, 07:01:32 PM »
Introduction
Have POIS for the most of my life and previously I never knew what this condition was called until not too long ago. Before I knew about the Waldinger recent study from 2016, I met my PCP and mentioned the symptoms from criterium/cluster I to her, what she was able to do was give me psychiatrist referral... Recently I've been taking this seriously and hope I can find a solution that would work long term. Like most of you here, after reading for a bit you already know that there is no easy solutions, some work, some don't, some temporarily. I tried many methods mentioned but none of them works except curcumin, zma, intermittent fasting but not doable on the long term which I will explain why later. The only time I felt like I was cured is when I on vacation overseas. 2 weeks within the city and 2 weeks on the country side, the only time I felt the best when I was at the country side where I was under the sun most of the time. But why?

Testosterone?
There many articles that indicates that people with low Vitamin D have low testosterone, which I do based on my several old blood test that has Vitamin D level of 11 pg/ml so ok I'm thinking all I have to do is up my Vitamin D intake. But my recent lab report from pcp checkup my levels were at 63 pg/ml and I still have POIS.

Going back to the vacation where I spent 4 weeks. The 2 weeks I was at the country side and during under the sun I never felt this good in my life. What I mean is that I can virtually eat anything I want with no adverse effects such as bad skin or acne. I do have a1c level at the pre diabetes range which I suspect comes from having low testosterone. My skin had bit of tan and was also glowing with no blemishes, it seems that my skin was healing very well and of course no POIS. I'm not surprised if the sun increased my testosterone and at the same time fixed my insulin levels.

The 4 weeks was like this,

  • Week 1 - Walk around city, bad skin, have pois
  • Week 2 and 3 - Walk around country side, good skin, no pois
  • Week 4 - Walk around city, bad skin, brain fog
 

So what I see here the only major difference was that during city sightseeing I was always within the shadows of skyscrapers or building where as country side I was always within the sun light. The only reason I can think of is the increase of testosterone from the sun and as you read previously my Vitamin D levels are in range. I did more research and found out that Vitamin D supplements and Vitamin D from the sun are different, the D comes the sun is actually Vitamin D sulfate. I wasn't too sure but then I found a user that had similar experience that he felt much healthier when sun bathe but not through supplementation. It's 5 pages but its a very good read. His final solution was tanning which I don't think it was a good ideal.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/forum/the-primal-blueprint-forum-discussion/primal-blueprint-nutrition/98407-the-importance-of-sunlight-and-how-vitamin-d-supps-are-no-substitute

Most of my work and activities 90% of the are done indoors so there no way I would achieve any benefits from the sun due to the limited amount of time. I also live in the north east.

Waldinger Study
Thanks for Waldinger for the comprehensive study.

I agree with a lot of stuff he says in the study. I fall into the first category of POIS symptoms. I have several other form allergies presented. I have PE. I'm also especially agree with his conclusion about the pro inflammatory cytokines. Now check this out, this purely my individual experience. My lips/cheeks are a good indicator if I have inflammatory because I can feel it with my tongue that its swollen by swirling my inner cheeks, appearance is minuscule to the eye but definitely can feel. But each time I have a O, then you can see its swollen. I believe that I already have elevated inflammation and POIS would just exacerbates it further. Meaning that when I was at the country side POIS free, my lips/cheeks feel and look 100% percent normal.

Labs

I used it to compared to one of member who used zrt lab test named EDS for reference, last I read that he is on trt. There are a list of users from Demografx with members who also uses trt, I also saw Animus listed but looks like he did an operation? But anyways here my test below,

Me @ 2-3 days after O
Testosterone (Saliva) 110 pg/mL 44-148 (Age Dependent)
Cortisol (Saliva) 2.4 L ng/mL 3.7-9.5 (morning)
Cortisol (Saliva) 2.2 ng/mL 1.2-3.0 (noon)
Cortisol (Saliva) 0.5 L ng/mL 0.6-1.9 (evening)
Cortisol (Saliva) 0.4 ng/mL 0.4-1.0 (night)
Estradiol (Blood Spot) 38 pg/mL 12-56
Testosterone (Blood Spot) 229 L ng/dL 400-1200 (Age Dependent)
Ratio: T/SHBG (Blood Spot) N/A .7 - 1.0
DHEAS (Blood Spot) 245 ?g/dL 70-325
SHBG (Blood Spot) <15 L nmol/L 15-50
PSA (Blood Spot) <0.5 ng/mL <0.5-4 (optimal 0.5-2)
Free T4 (Blood Spot)* 1.7 ng/dL 0.7-2.5
Free T3 (Blood Spot) 3.6 pg/mL 2.5-6.5
TSH (Blood Spot) 0.5 ?U/mL 0.5-3.0
TPOab (Blood Spot)* 20 IU/mL 0-150 (70-150 borderline)

As you can see my testosterone is low at 229, low SHBG, upper range of estradiol. This is when I feel the worse. I have another lab where I have no sexy time for 3 months, look below.

3 Month No O
Testosterone 337.3 ng/dL  249.0-836.0
TSH 0.76 uIU/mL 0.27-4.20
Cortisol AM 12.3 ug/dL 6.2-19.4
HGB A1C 5.7 % H 4.0-5.6

So it seems like my base testosterone is at low 300. High a1c, normal cortisol. I still think my testosterone is too low but my endocrinologist says otherwise. I weight 130 at 5'9.

My Saliva Test @ 2-3 days after O
17-OHP, SALIVA, AM 45.4 H 19.5 - 25.9 pg/ml
ANDROSTENEDIONE,SALIVA,AM 155 H 7 - 89 pg/ml

Here you see that my androstenedione or DHT is high. This is probably why some people who O also have acne flares. If you look at the acne.org forum, members also question does sex/masturbation causes acne. What I read so far is that release of prolactin also increases dht and that increase/cause acne.

I have another blood result coming up that includes wider spectrum of different tests, I will update that once comes through.

EDS
15 minutes before ?O? at 10:00 pm ?       result = normal @ 0.4 (range 0.4 ? 1.0)
15 minutes after at 10:45pm ?          result = low @ 0.2 (range 1.2 ? 3.0)
The next morning - 9 hours after at 7:00 am ?    result = low @ 3.3 (range 3.7 ? 9.5)
The next evening - 23 hours after at 9:00 pm ?    result = low @ 0.1 (range 0.6 ? 1.9)
Estradiol ? result = high @ 58 (range 12 -56)
Testosterone ? result = low @ 342 (range 400 ? 1200)
Ratio T/SHBG ? result = low @ 0.3 (range 0.7 ? 1.0)
DHEAS ? result = normal @ 125 (range 70 ? 325
SHBG ? result = normal @ 36 (range 15 ? 50)
PSA ? result = normal @ 1.1 (range <0.5 ? 4)
Free T4 ? result = normal @ 0.7 ? 2.5)
Free T3 ? result = normal @ 3.4 (range 2.5 ? 6.5)
TSH ? result = normal @ 3.0 (range 0.5 ? 3.0)
TPO ? result = high @ 380 (range 0 ? 150 w/70 being borderline)

https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg264567#msg264567

Supplements and Fasting
  • Zinc
  • Curcmin
  • Intermittent Fasting
  • Honorable mention - Saw Palmetto

Zinc - Reports comes in that zinc increases testosterone but I not sure it makes a significant impact on my test levels or through any supplementation. But I do believe that zinc is anti inflammatory cause it does work for me but temporarily for few hours. Normal lips/check and good skin.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3407988/

Curcumin -  Also works like zinc and also temporarily and effects diminishes over time.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3753829/

Intermittent Fasting - I know this one does work but I'm not sure where the benefit is coming from cause there are contradictions that fasting decreases testosterone. But also at the same time I read reports that it decrease inflammation and increase testosterone. I can only keep up with fasting for several days because I would lose weight eating at lower calories, some reason if I eat the same calories as pre fasting it would not work. And I prefer not to lose any more weight since I'm already skinny as is.
https://authoritynutrition.com/10-health-benefits-of-intermittent-fasting/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Pituitary-testicular+axis+in+obese+men+during+short-term+fasting.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3106181

Saw Palmetto - Reduces dht by reducing ar5 that converts from testosterone to dht. Makes my skin 10 years younger but I don't use it anymore since there are sides effects if you get your dht too low. People usually use this to help with hair loss. Does not help with inflammation cytokines or testosterone for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%CE%B1-Reductase_inhibitor

My Opinion
What I mentioned so far is purely based on my experience. I think by having low testosterone causes an increase of inflammation. For me, my base level was at low 300 and after an O, my level goes down to low 200 and from there my lips/cheek swells indicating a release of inflammation coming from the O. And all that other nasty stuff that comes with it. This is how I concluded that by taking trt will help my POIS issue as I seen it worked for other people as well. I know that trt can causes infertility but I can use HCG to keep them at bay, I know it doesn't guarantee to work but I'm willing to try.

I wonder why Dr.Waldinger does not mention TRT since his website mentions that TRT has prevented POIS some members here but on his recent study he doesn't say anything about testosterone.
edit - My mistake, not his website.
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Inflammation.aspx
http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2012/6/testosterone-controversy/page-01

My Next Step
I made a appointment with a allergist to see what she has to say. I'm not sure what she can do besides doing more test, perhaps test to confirm inflammation issues. From there hopefully she  can prescribe me trt or refer me to a endo or uro who is willing to help. If not, I will have to go through clinics. I will update once I get any news from the from full panel trt blood test. I might missed something here or there but do feel free to ask if something doesnt make sense.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 07:05:18 PM by crushgrapes »

demografx

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Re: I'm willing to be your next TRT test subject
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2017, 02:41:03 PM »
Thanks, crushgrapes! I spoke with Dr. Waldinger after his 2011 report came out: he had no idea why TRT works for me.

Also cross-posting this at Testosterone thread:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=17.msg20548#msg20548

Belated welcome to POISCenter!
Demo

« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 09:00:39 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

joelawerence

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Re: I'm willing to be your next TRT test subject
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2017, 12:40:08 PM »
I am also one of the candidates of Low testosterone and Low Vitamin D. I measured my testosterone levels at few months gap and these were my readings - 3.0, 5.6, 5.0 (Normal range is 8.3 to 28.7). So I am clearly low in testosterone. I have been taking Vitamin D 5000IU per day for the last 3 months or so and have some significant reduction in POIS duration and severity of symptoms. Again, I am brown skinned and live in the UK and so it is almost sure that I have a Vit D deficiency that's why my GP prescribed it, and increasing it has certainly improved my condition.

With regards to testosterone, I am hoping that the Vitamin D increase will also increase my testosterone levels gradually. I am also losing some weight now through diet and moderate exercise in last 3 months. I will take my testosterone levels in a couple of months or so to see if there has been an increase and how it co-relates to how I am feeling with respect to POIS.

OP- Please let us know how your TRT goes if you are going to that route.
33 years old, POIS for around 12 years with increasing severity.
Major symptoms - Severe fatigue, back pain, unrefreshed even after 9+ hours sleep, pain behind eyes, very dry face, bald head with inflamed scalp, digestion issues and constipation. Very low testosterone and high glucose in blood tests

crushgrapes

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Re: I'm willing to be your next TRT test subject
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2017, 10:01:05 PM »
I'm glad that the vitamin d is working for you joe. Unfortunately for me, my vitamin d levels are within range and hasn't done much for pois. Let us know your report when you get it, thanks for your input.