Testosterone

[Hoping]

Hello, everyone. I do want to mention that if any of you are ever in Massachusetts, United States do not hesitate to contact me. My family operates a restaurant and I would be honored host any of the active people in the forum.

Anyway,

Something strange has happened with my testosterone testing. As many of you know, my symptoms all started with a particular orgasm almost a decade ago. They are very severe, have pulled me out of my family's businesses and school, and can seem both schizophrenic and physically limiting when at it's worst. My testosterone has consistently read in the 400's for the first few years of my POIS, and doctors understandably interpreted this as a normal testosterone level since the level can vary from person to person.

Recently, about 6 months ago, I noticed a big improvement in my symptoms by taking niacin before POIS and Kurtosis' treatment regimen (His regimen at that time) immediately after orgasm. All my symptoms (severe cognitive, neurological, cardiovascular, inflamed/light sensitive eyes, fatigue, muscle weakness) felt 80% better. I was having orgasms once per week (more than I have ever had in my POIS time) and hardly felt any symptoms. I was able to do some testing during this period and the results read over 700 for testosterone.

More recently, the treatments have become less and less effective over time. Whether it was just a matter of tolerance or if taking supplements immediately after orgasm had a negative effect I'm not sure. I have begun to get worse over time. I am still better than I was a while back but the gap isn't very wide.  I had a test just a week or two ago and my testosterone once again read in the 400's.

My testosterone testing:

3/28/11 - 499
7/18/11 - 422
6/14/12 - 730 (When I felt good)
8/13/12 - 486

Testosterone is the only thing I have ever found anything like this with. I don't believe that this is the explanation for my POIS because my problems are so widespread and severe. I do wonder how much of it could be due to low testosterone. Also I wonder of the possibility if my testosterone actually does belong in the 400's and the supplements I started to take just provided a boost and masking effect of my POIS. Then again, it is always possible that the supplements, which could have boosted my testosterone, could have helped with inflammation and drive and mental clarity.

I would love to hear the opinions of the many intelligent people in this forum.

Thanks and I continue to wish you all the best,

Jon.

Interesting, Jon. Tests like these are so important -- that is, tests that allow you to compare levels while you're symptomatic and while you're not. Do you mind if I ask your age? Just curios to see how it matches up to the levels you reported.
I got my testosterone tested last year. I O'd around 9pm the night before the test (administered around 11am the next day). Do you recall how recently you had O'd prior to having the 400-level tests administered? Might be helpful information.

Here are my results (26-year-old, healthy male):
Testosterone (Total, LC/MS/MS):
--Result: 666 ng/dL (normal range 250-1100)

Testosterone (Free):
--Result: 119.0 pg/mL (normal range 35.0-115.0)

Also, I'm heading to Boston in a few days to begin the final year of my grad program. Where is your restaurant located in MA? It would be great to meet up if it's not too far. Feel free to PM me if you don't want the information posted here.

[demografx]

[guy26]

I just have to say... wow. A few minutes ago I made a lengthy post about curing my moderate to minor POIS by raising my testosterone levels. I raised my levels because of other reasons--atypical gender identity. I was very surprised to read this thread and see that others have stumbled across this solution too.

[Prancer]

I just have to say... wow. A few minutes ago I made a lengthy post about curing my moderate to minor POIS by raising my testosterone levels. I raised my levels because of other reasons--atypical gender identity. I was very surprised to read this thread and see that others have stumbled across this solution too.

Hi guy26! Welcome!

It was me who contacted you. I wasn't sure if you would come, so thank you very very much for coming over to share your story! I think that anytime someone has been cured of POIS (via any method), it's important to discuss it. Yes, others, like demografx for example, have been cured or helped with testosterone. But I believe that's okay since each cure case is unique and it is good to hear about them all.

For those who don't know the story, I found guy26 at another forum while researching POIS and noticed a section in one of his posts talking about how he cured his POIS. So I invited him over to talk about it. I didn't know if he would get the invitation or come, but I gave it a shot, and luckily it worked!

[demografx]

I just have to say... wow. A few minutes ago I made a lengthy post about curing my moderate to minor POIS by raising my testosterone levels. I raised my levels because of other reasons--atypical gender identity. I was very surprised to read this thread and see that others have stumbled across this solution too.

I've been with POIS forums 6 years now and have seen about six (6) successful testosterone treatments in POISers who posted about it.

I recently posted elsewhere on this forum about my 10-year testosterone odyssey.

[Jon]

John, out of curiousity, what supplements were you taking to boost test this high?

I have been trying to do this myself over the last week using DIM and Calcium D Glucarate. Ive read many peeps on bodybuilding forums have had good experiences with this combo. Not sure how its worked thus far, I got flu this week and im feeling pretty out of it with all the flu meds.

Porke, My apologies on the long delay. If I have been logging on here consistently of late. I was taking niacin before orgasm and spiraling, vitamin c, and fish oil afterwards and then every other day. I only took the niacin before orgasm and not on other days.

Hello, everyone. I do want to mention that if any of you are ever in Massachusetts, United States do not hesitate to contact me. My family operates a restaurant and I would be honored host any of the active people in the forum.

Anyway,

Something strange has happened with my testosterone testing. As many of you know, my symptoms all started with a particular orgasm almost a decade ago. They are very severe, have pulled me out of my family's businesses and school, and can seem both schizophrenic and physically limiting when at it's worst. My testosterone has consistently read in the 400's for the first few years of my POIS, and doctors understandably interpreted this as a normal testosterone level since the level can vary from person to person.

Recently, about 6 months ago, I noticed a big improvement in my symptoms by taking niacin before POIS and Kurtosis' treatment regimen (His regimen at that time) immediately after orgasm. All my symptoms (severe cognitive, neurological, cardiovascular, inflamed/light sensitive eyes, fatigue, muscle weakness) felt 80% better. I was having orgasms once per week (more than I have ever had in my POIS time) and hardly felt any symptoms. I was able to do some testing during this period and the results read over 700 for testosterone.

More recently, the treatments have become less and less effective over time. Whether it was just a matter of tolerance or if taking supplements immediately after orgasm had a negative effect I'm not sure. I have begun to get worse over time. I am still better than I was a while back but the gap isn't very wide.  I had a test just a week or two ago and my testosterone once again read in the 400's.

My testosterone testing:

3/28/11 - 499
7/18/11 - 422
6/14/12 - 730 (When I felt good)
8/13/12 - 486

Testosterone is the only thing I have ever found anything like this with. I don't believe that this is the explanation for my POIS because my problems are so widespread and severe. I do wonder how much of it could be due to low testosterone. Also I wonder of the possibility if my testosterone actually does belong in the 400's and the supplements I started to take just provided a boost and masking effect of my POIS. Then again, it is always possible that the supplements, which could have boosted my testosterone, could have helped with inflammation and drive and mental clarity.

I would love to hear the opinions of the many intelligent people in this forum.

Thanks and I continue to wish you all the best,

Jon.

Interesting, Jon. Tests like these are so important -- that is, tests that allow you to compare levels while you're symptomatic and while you're not. Do you mind if I ask your age? Just curios to see how it matches up to the levels you reported.
I got my testosterone tested last year. I O'd around 9pm the night before the test (administered around 11am the next day). Do you recall how recently you had O'd prior to having the 400-level tests administered? Might be helpful information.

Here are my results (26-year-old, healthy male):
Testosterone (Total, LC/MS/MS):
--Result: 666 ng/dL (normal range 250-1100)

Testosterone (Free):
--Result: 119.0 pg/mL (normal range 35.0-115.0)

Also, I'm heading to Boston in a few days to begin the final year of my grad program. Where is your restaurant located in MA? It would be great to meet up if it's not too far. Feel free to PM me if you don't want the information posted here.

Hoping, My apologies on the delay. That's awesome, congratulations and good luck to you. Our restaurant is located in southeastern mass in Swansea. Its about a 50 minute drive from downtown providence.

[simfooks6]

hey guys sorry but i'm struggling with how to use this aite and was wondering if anyone can tell me about the testosterone levels that they are taking. my doctor has just started me on the testogel 100 mg

[demografx]

I take 8mg daily of Androderm T patches. I started out with 15mg daily for 2 years, then lowered the dose to curb side effects.

With doctor's monitoring of my condition throughout my 3 year POIS treatment.

simfooks6, welcome to The POIS Forum!

And here are some POIS-enlightening resources for you:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg1#msg1

[Nightingale]

I just got my lab results from my testosterone level check.

Both regular and free levels were in the upper normal ranges.  I'm 26 years old, and that definitely helps my levels.  This may have changed though, as around 2 years ago I was prescribed Androgel by a sympathetic endocrinologist in an attempt to treat my POIS.  I couldn't tolerate it, made me edgy and angry.  But I might have had a lower T level back then, which may have changed over time taking supplements.  I'll try to dig those records up.

[LAPOISSE]

Hello all,

I discussed with my doc about testosterone ; I'll have my level checked.

We thought we shouldn't compare our levels with normal range but mesure variations through time and POIS phase evolution ;

I'll make it at O+1; O+3 and 0+6/7(depends how i fell...basicly in pois free symptoms state)

I'll post everything here

[LAPOISSE]

just got my blood test result :

I will just write what came wrong :

17 beta estradiol

40,4 pmol/l               normal range for men             99-393

Testosterone

2,66ng/mL                                        normal range                         2,49-8,36

Biodisponible Testosterone

0,57 ng/mL               normal range for men 20-35yo    1 - 3,70


I've done the test in O+2 day...I was definitly in POIS

Basicly I had this day the free testosterone of a 70 yo person (I'm 28)

The thing is I dont have problem of erection or any of the hypogonadism symptoms

I need to have other testings but I think we definitly need to investigate the testosterone role in POIS ; I talked with my endocrino about mess up with spermatogenesis and he was clearly interested.

[demografx]

TRT was the answer in my case. Congrats on testing.

[Vincent M]

That's interesting to me that you don't have erection difficulty or low libido and yet your testosterone tested so low cuz I've always thought that my testosterone was high due to my high libido, but recently I've thought that my libido might just seem high because of the irritation and inflammation that POIS causes in my sexual organs.

[kurtosis]

Here's a short theory of POIS.

1) A genetic defect in a methylation gene causes an inefficient homocysteine to methionine cycle.
2) Depending on the level of inefficiency, the sufferer will be fine until they encounter puberty or become older and suffer from some illness which taxes the immune system.
3) Up until the point of the first POIS O the sufferer may feel a bit tired or less active than usual but the first POIS O will come as a shock as it's the first time the body has to dispose of a substantial amount of histamine that it's impaired methylation simply cannot handle.
4) Once POIS starts, the sufferer has high levels of histamine that are not being effectively deactivated (increasing their libido and frequency of ejaculation) and impairments in the production of other neurotransmitters (making them slow down and feel depressed).
5) the High-histamine state requires the body to produce more cortisol to control inflammation. The sufferer has allergies etc. and wonders what the problem is but over time they're body becomes weaker.
6) The cortisol produced in (5) steals the raw ingredients for other hormones (including testosterone), producing symptoms of hypogonadism despite no obvious testicular malfunction or adrenal tumour. It's possible that persistent adrenal fatigue may increase the natural wear + tear on the cells of the pituitary gland which may lead to tumours but that's a side issue.
7) The body also produces adrenaline to cope with high levels of cortisol. Again, this contributes to mental and physical burnout. The POIS sufferer now has chronic adrenal fatigue and may feel "wiped out", being unable to deal with even normal stresses in every day life.
Both the reduced methylation and cortisol steal in the previous points, reduces the production of neurotransmitters. The brain also has too high a histamine load and a negative feedback loop is created such that the brain runs in a suboptimal state with too high levels of histamine and too low levels of serotonin. This leads to persistent feelings of anxiety, even when the sufferer believes they are not in POIS. Indeed, over time it becomes more difficult for the POIS sufferer to figure out when they are in in POIS or out of it. The state of weakness, fatigue and confusion becomes more persistent.
9 ) The POIS sufferer never recovers their former state of wellbeing with adequate histamine clearance and adequate methylation of neurotransmitters UNLESS they manage to kick start their methylation cycle.

Thanks to cheap DNA testing we can actually find out if we have polymorphisms (basically mutations) of our methylation genes. My guess is that we all have methylation issues. They may not be the same issue but they're similar enough to produce a major problem when we process histamine. The inability to clear histamine quickly and the high levels we experience daily would lead to the symptoms of POIS but they would be a result of other issues.

[Observer]

Here's a short theory of POIS.

(...)

Amazing kurtosis. I can only say that I am going to try to understand and study your theory, thank you for all the effort you are dedicating to the issue.

[kurtosis]

7) should read "high levels of histamine"

should be 8 )

[LAPOISSE]

Hi all,

Things are mooving quicker than usually...It's very exciting...There is two new case of "feeling recovered" in the NSF forum...I dont' know how to take thoose and how it could help all of us...

The Coreman description is interesting to me ; I know for long time i'm high prolactine(nerver could explain that).

I think we really need to go in some methodic scientific research to definitly verify the numerous hypothesis we have.

Have a good sunday

[LAPOISSE]

Here's a short theory of POIS.

1) A genetic defect in a methylation gene causes an inefficient homocysteine to methionine cycle.
2) Depending on the level of inefficiency, the sufferer will be fine until they encounter puberty or become older and suffer from some illness which taxes the immune system.
3) Up until the point of the first POIS O the sufferer may feel a bit tired or less active than usual but the first POIS O will come as a shock as it's the first time the body has to dispose of a substantial amount of histamine that it's impaired methylation simply cannot handle.
4) Once POIS starts, the sufferer has high levels of histamine that are not being effectively deactivated (increasing their libido and frequency of ejaculation) and impairments in the production of other neurotransmitters (making them slow down and feel depressed).
5) the High-histamine state requires the body to produce more cortisol to control inflammation. The sufferer has allergies etc. and wonders what the problem is but over time they're body becomes weaker.
6) The cortisol produced in (5) steals the raw ingredients for other hormones (including testosterone), producing symptoms of hypogonadism despite no obvious testicular malfunction or adrenal tumour. It's possible that persistent adrenal fatigue may increase the natural wear + tear on the cells of the pituitary gland which may lead to tumours but that's a side issue.
7) The body also produces adrenaline to cope with high levels of cortisol. Again, this contributes to mental and physical burnout. The POIS sufferer now has chronic adrenal fatigue and may feel "wiped out", being unable to deal with even normal stresses in every day life.
Both the reduced methylation and cortisol steal in the previous points, reduces the production of neurotransmitters. The brain also has too high a histamine load and a negative feedback loop is created such that the brain runs in a suboptimal state with too high levels of histamine and too low levels of serotonin. This leads to persistent feelings of anxiety, even when the sufferer believes they are not in POIS. Indeed, over time it becomes more difficult for the POIS sufferer to figure out when they are in in POIS or out of it. The state of weakness, fatigue and confusion becomes more persistent.
9 ) The POIS sufferer never recovers their former state of wellbeing with adequate histamine clearance and adequate methylation of neurotransmitters UNLESS they manage to kick start their methylation cycle.

Thanks to cheap DNA testing we can actually find out if we have polymorphisms (basically mutations) of our methylation genes. My guess is that we all have methylation issues. They may not be the same issue but they're similar enough to produce a major problem when we process histamine. The inability to clear histamine quickly and the high levels we experience daily would lead to the symptoms of POIS but they would be a result of other issues.

Although I have no knowledges to understand all that, it seems very logical.

However, I think a lot of sufferer here did'nt experienced allergie problems ; If we all have high level of histamine, everybody should be allergic with physical signs ; Some other could have allergies AND POIS wich are not obligatory related ; There is some people here are allergic to gluten and the symptoms are clearly similar to POIS especialy for the cognitive one ; So , what symtoms are caused by the allergie/food intolerence itself ?Or by POIS? Is it the same thing ?(then why about 40% of POIS sufferer declare not being allergic person according to the poll)
Moreover it's very difficult to find any serious paper wich make a relation between high histamine and the cognitive probleme we have.

I still think it's one the best theory we have about POIS, but I'm just concerned about the fact that it doesn't apply for everybody.

[kurtosis]

We have no idea if we're all suffering from the same thing. I operate on the assumption that we're not.
Orgasms involve histamine release. A "flu like" reaction to an orgasm seems by definition to be like an allergy. However, people's ability to identify or diagnose their own problems may be different. Some people think they may have POIS a lot faster than others. Education, medical understanding, the age of the sufferer and progression of the illness etc. all play a part.
The polls have appallingly low numbers of people voting in them. We cannot base anything useful on them. I've given up creating them to be honest as we're supposed to have a few hundred members here but we get between 10 and 20 people voting in polls.

Why are some papers serious and others are not? I have worked as a scientist for many years and I can tell you that much of what's deemed serious at any particular time is fashion. The very fact that major drug companies are researching H3 antagonists to treat cognitive problems tells you there's a connection. What other standard of proof is required?

[kurtosis]

If someone doesn't have symptoms of any of: fatigue, nausea, dizziness, headache, stomach ache, rashes, itches etc. when they have an O, then they don't have POIS. What other symptoms could they possibly have? A mild sense of dissatisfaction?

I'm not trying to be rude about this and I hope it doesn't seem that way but my interest is in the connection with my symptoms and those of the majority of the people that I'm dealing with, especially people like B_Daniel who are helpful enough to send me their results.

The forum is full of people saying taking X, Y or Z didn't do much for them and some people saying that the same X, Y or Z worked in some capacity. All I can say is what works for me. The same thing that works for me now seems to be working for B_Daniel. That's good.

Having dealt with medical professionals, both generalists and specialists, for 20 years trying to overcome this illness I don't really care what medical professionals think is authoritative information or not. Relatively cheap genetic testing means that genetic mutations and problems are beginning to be identified more easily and the blunt instrument that is much of medical diagnostics will be overshadowed by better doctoring and better cures.

There are millions of people with mysterious illnesses that are not being cured by their doctors. So we have a few possibilities
1) They are all nuts - it's all in their heads
2) They have real physiological problems that their doctors have no idea how to treat.

If 1 is correct then it's just as likely POIS is all in our heads. So we shut down this website and go back to our psychiatrists admitting we were wrong & they knew best
 
If 2 is correct then we should adopt some skepticism with our doctors and insist they adopt some humility with us.  I have learnt over many years that unless a doctor has a constructive suggestion for how to deal with POIS, I don't bother to convince them it's real. I spent 10 years a lot of money trying to convince people who were very egotistical that just because they didn't understand POIS that it may still exist.
This year I spoke with a woman with Myaesthenia Gravis who was eventually treated after 8 years of misdiagnosis. She had a similarly dim view of medical infallibility.
We had both ended up paying huge bills for each hour we had spent trying to convince doctors of the validity of an illness they couldn't treat or would not acknowledge. 

Never again.