Progecitor's summary

[Muon]

You may use the AI for a quick overview which staining/dyes highlight specific components of sperm. If I remember correctly Methylene blue might stain mast cells but some granules will show up with a different color than blue. The problem is that you do not have a reference of normal cell biology in general.

[Progecitor]

After the last O with many "dead" sperm my POIS was quite bad even though I was taking a lot of good supplements. Particularly one of the eyes was incessantly very bloodshot which sometimes happens and probably can be associated to a concurrent infection (eye covid?). I think this was the case this time as well and I have to wonder if it had to do anything with the dead sperm.
Nevertheless 5 days after the previous occasion I had another O. This time the sperm wasn’t particularly burning. Under the microscope it was once again quite lively. There were non-motile spermatozoa, but this was the smaller fraction. There were less with pin shaped heads and the most appeared what may be considered normal. What surprised me this time was a smaller fraction of the moving spermatozoa that acted quite crazily. I mean they were shaking their heads so frantically that seemed nothing like normal. They were also moving so fast that I couldn’t get a good look at them. I can only guess this was due to the many supplements I take, which may have doped them. Whether this is a good or bad thing is uncertain, but at least POIS wasn’t particularly bad afterwards and the eyes managed to recover in the following days at least to baseline.

[Progecitor]

Mumps may be another reason why I had developed POIS. One of the complications of mumps is orchitis (testes inflammation). Although orchitis is unusual for prepubertal males, but it may occur. Mumps orchitis is also often accompanied by epididymitis which is the inflammation of the epididymis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumps

Unfortunately I can't remember practically anything about how this happened exactly, but it can't be excluded that orchitis may have occurred. If it was so then excessive or prolonged inflammation could have caused hypermethylation of genes in some genital tissues which would later result in primary onset of POIS even though being an acquired epigenetic alteration.

The results suggest that cytokines including TNF-a and transcriptional factors such as NF-kB (p65) contribute to silencing of SRD5A2 by regulating DNMT1 activity.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=4061.0

Actually later I had recalled that there was a time in my childhood, when I had red testicles for what felt a long time. I think it was about two weeks or a bit more and I am rather certain that it happened right after my mumps viral infection. I remember I was quite scared at the time, but did not mention this to my parents as I had bad experience with the hospital visit when I had the Hydrocele sclerotisatio operation a few years beforehand. Of course it was an irrational fear, but this is how I was at the time. I only had my first ejaculation about 3 years after the mumps infection, so by that time I must have been already predisposed for POIS. Actually it was rather unfortunate that I have been infected by mumps at all, as I got the morbilli vaccine when I was a year old, which was most probably an MMR vaccine, which should have protected me against the measles, mumps and rubella trio. For a long time this transient orchitis did not even occur to me as a possibility for my POIS as the testicle redness went away and by simple logic I was cured. However this was only wishful thinking when considering a broader spectrum of evidences. After coming to the site and reading a lot of posts and then also hearing about ME/CFS being suspected as a post viral phenomenon helped in the revaluation of these earlier events. Others developed POIS as post covid comorbidity which only confirms this association further. In the meantime researchers have also proven that prolonged inflammation and the associated lipid peroxidation can lead to the development of autoimmunity. Of course this also means that other causes like overmasturbation or specific drugs could be the cause of POIS as well if they sustained an inflammation for an adequate amount of time for autoimmunity to develop. Autoimmunity can also drive the development of senescence and they share a similar inflammatory profile. I only wish I knew these things like 20 years ago and had the opportunity to use the supplements that now I have access to. At this point it just feels like I have gone too far on the POIS road and became irreversibly lost in its depths.

[Progecitor]

8 and 7 days apart I had Os once again. On the first occasion the semen was not burning, but it had a stronger smell than usual and at the second time it was rather normal. At both times the sperm appeared less sticky while sampling with the spatula. Under the microscope the spermatozoa were mostly normal I think. At both times there were only few with pin-like heads and I also couldn’t see such extreme movement as beforehand. Most were moving ones, but in aggregates there were non-moving ones as well. I saw some with what may be considered excess residual cytoplasm at both times, but then again it was not a major phenotype. I also upgraded the magnification of the scope to 2000x, but I can’t say this made the observations much better due to the fast moving spermatozoa. On both occasions I had some POIS flare, but it wasn’t particularly bad. Of course I have been taking a very lot of supplements, about daily 50, so this may be somewhat expected. Nevertheless POIS is just too powerful to be treated properly and supplements keep loosing their efficacy as well.
2 days after the previous occasion I had another O. This time once again the sperm appeared to be more sticky. The spermatozoa appeared to be fewer in number, which was similar to the time I had “dead sperm”. Clearly a 2 days interval is just not enough for sperm to recover sufficiently. Regarding the proportions it was not particularly bad though. There were more slow or non-moving ones than before, but this was about equal to the moving ones. Pin-heads were also a little more abundant than previously, however not to a significant level. This time I also saw more with what may be considered excess residual cytoplasm and these were more often slow moving ones. I also saw many that may be considered normal.
4 days later I had another O. The ejaculate was quite normal, though once again sticky. Spermatozoa was more sparse and less dense as previously, though possibly a bit more abundant. Morphologically the different forms appeared to be in mostly equal proportions. Once again a saw a bit more with pin-like heads, but they were not too abundant. This time I think I saw more with what may be considered excess residual cytoplasm. Most of the time they were slow moving or non-motile, but with normal heads. I also saw some non-motile with really bent heads. Motile and non-motile ones were about in equal proportion.
Based on what I have observed so far, I can say that one really needs about a week to have a healthy full load of sperm. I guess this may be a normal thing and if anyone plans for a child, it may be better to do sex less frequently rather than every day. There may be something to the semen re-regeneration theory as POIS clearly gets better, when the gun is full with a healthier load, however the actual fact of shooting it seems to be more important than the quality of the semen. The ROS producing capability of immature spermatozoa may be involved, but I can’t verify this with my expertise or rather lack of it.
Someone on the prostatitis reddit site mentioned he saw a reaction for leukocytes when using a urine strip test on his precum. Some time ago I had been using similar strips on my urine, but even when it was really burning, it would never produce a similar reaction. This time I applied precum to the test strip, but there was no reaction nevertheless. Precum clearly induces my POIS though as I would frequently notice a sudden onset of bloodshot eyes (conjunctival hyperemia) when it appeared. This is clearly not due to masturbation itself as I could go for some time without precum and I would not perceive this exacerbation, but only when precum occurred. Of course if I actually ejaculated the symptom would be even worse. Afterwards I tested the strip on the ejaculate as well at least last time and it turned to a light purple (dark purple indicates a high value for urine), which probably means the presence of leukocytes, though its significance is not clear.

[Physi]

The last few items of the individual test phase and some new products that I have tested afterwards.

Hepafix [In 1 capsule: 280 mg milk thistle extract (DER 25:1) with 126 mg silymarin, 280 mg artichoke extract (DER 6:1) with 14 mg cynarin; Rd:1]: I took it for two days with a dosage of 3 caps per day, but I did not have an O. On the first afternoon I masturbated and the sexual capability felt rather average. Interestingly though not too long after getting up in the first morning I had some strong spontaneous erections which may indicate a positive effect on libido, however nothing like this happened on the second morning. The weak chest inflammation I had earlier mostly resolved by the first morning (second day). On the second day I had to travel a long distance by car which evidently put a strain on my body as it happened similarly in the past. I don’t have motion sickness, but I still wasn’t feeling well by the time I had arrived home and also developed a headache just like in the past. I could see a little positive effect on the eyes on the first day, but not on the second day, so its effect was minimal. I could not experience an anti-depressive effect as with some other milk thistle products. I also had a bad rhinitis and the urine was burning as usual. Gut issues were about weak-moderately better, but not particularly so and the ground milk thistle seeds were certainly better in this regard. Frankly it was a little disappointing as even the ground milk thistle seeds felt better, so I can only give this a weak score at the moment.
In the meantime I have almost consumed the whole box (about 100 caps) by taking daily one before going to bed. My verdict is that it doesn’t really cause any significant change in POIS unfortunately.

Capers: I ate a whole little jar with a drained net weight of 65 g in a day and had an O. The eyes were only lightly bloodshot, but I could not notice a clear improvement, however even after O they only got slightly worse, so I think it has a protective effect against deterioration at least. I had the O in the late evening which is not ideal, as the eyes felt really dry during masturbation. Regarding the sexual function the libido was possibly below average, while the control and erection felt rather average. Nevertheless I could go for a long time, so the endurance was evidently above average at least. The ejaculate was probably a little burning, but I missed to take notice of this, so it was not bad at least. The morning felt more like a chronic day, so capers clearly helped lowering the POIS bump, however I was still not particularly well. Gut issues were about weak-moderately better. As a possible side-effect I felt a strong throbbing of the vein on the left side of the neck in the evening, but this may also indicate a blood vessel strengthening effect, so not necessarily detrimental. As an overall score I can evaluate this as weak-moderate, though it is clearly not rational to consume such a big amount on a daily basis.
Capers is a good source of methylglucosinolate, quercetin and rutin.

Powdered blond plantain husks (Plantago ovata) [Rd: max 5 teaspoon]: I consumed 4 teaspoon worth in a day without an O. When put in water it forms a gel very similar to guar gum. This one did not appear to be effective for eye symptoms. Gut issues were a little better. Otherwise I could not see any particular change, so it was a little disappointing. It is a possible source of acteoside, which I consider to be a good thing. It is also a common source of psyllium, that may be fermented into butyric acid in the gut. In the future I plan to use it as an additive when baking gluten free bread.

Pectin: I took 2.5 teaspoon worth in a day without an O. I had a little more work than usual and exercise intolerance was an issue. The eyes were somewhat more bloodshot than usual and I am not sure if the exercise intolerance alone could explain this. The quality of the stool was very strange that I would not even describe. Well, it was kind of hilarious and disturbing at the same time by encasing the motion of peristalsis. At least the burning pain felt a little reduced, so pectin may be not detrimental in a POIS manner. 

Arabian seven spice blend [powder; constituents: black pepper, caraway, red pepper (paprika), coriander, allspice, cinnamon, cardamom]: I consumed with 2 teaspoons (4 x half) in a day as a tea without an O. The eyes did not appear to change much during the day and they were mostly moderately bloodshot. Gut issues appeared a little better, but not much really and the burning pain was rather usual.
Certainly I had some positive experience with most of the constituents, however black pepper and red pepper may be suspected for negative effects as well due to their pungency.
Actually I have been using it some time for spicing the food with other stuff. As I would often experience an increase in the burning pain on the following days, I suspect it could have a detrimental effect as well. It also got expired in the meantime, which may also contribute to this problem. I think I will put this in the mixed category for now.

Couch grass 2 (Elymus repens (L.) Gould): Accidentally I bought another brand of this, so I tested it again. I made a hot tea by adding 1.5 tablespoon of herb to 1.2 liter of water and drank it in a day without an O. Actually once again I had more work and it was kind of dirty. A lot of particles got into my eyes, which made one of them rather inflamed and painful and it could only partly recover by next morning. Nevertheless I don’t think it helped with eye symptoms. Disregarding the painful eye I masturbated some in the afternoon. The sexual function felt rather alright as it had been a bit above average. It felt like it had some anti-inflammatory effect on gut issues as well, but altogether it was not that significant. Currently I can only give it a weak score.

Garden cress sprout (Lepidium sativum) [grown for about a week]: I ate quite an amount of sprouts throughout a day and also consumed 1 teaspoon of its seeds before going to sleep. Both the sprouts and seed tasted a little bitter and pungent. I masturbated a little, but I still felt sexually tired from the previous day. The eyes did not seem to improve at all. The morning felt mostly as usual, though I was not particularly unwell. Gut issues were a little better, but I could not see a significant difference. It only gets a weak score.
Anecdotally it is considered an aphrodisiac as well. I guess some of its phyto-constituents could be similar to that of maca.

Walnut leaf tea: I had some positive experience with this in the past. Particularly it helped a few times when I had a bad stomachache, which is rather rare for me though. This time I made a hot tea by adding 2 tablespoon of herb to 1.2 liter of water and drank it in a day without an O. I think it had a little benefit on the eye issues as they were only lightly bloodshot throughout the day. At one time I experienced an increased tinnitus. In the evening I also masturbated some without an O and the sexual function appeared mostly normal. Gut issues were about weak-moderately better. The morning felt mostly usual though one of the eyes felt a little painful, but at least it was only normally bloodshot. I think walnut leaf tea is about weak-moderately helpful, but a higher dose could be problematic.

Dimenhydrinate (Daedalon) [50 mg per pill; Rd: max 8]: I tried this on two separate days by taking 3 pills each day and had an O on one of them. I developed a weak chest inflammation on both occasions, but in the first case it was probably due to the ejaculation and the second time I ate some processed cookies which evidently boosted POIS intensity. At both times I felt a reduction of rhinitis, but it was not complete and it was also paralleled with nasal congestion. I don’ think it did much about eye symptoms or depression. Regarding sexual function it was mostly normal, but it felt more difficult to reach an O than usual. Gut issues were somewhat better at least. I think it deserves a weak-moderate rating, but as for anti-histamines I would rather opt for cetirizine.
Some POISers had a really good experience with Dramamine which is the same drug, but in my case it helps only about as much as the other anti-histamines and in itself it does not account to much.

Colloidal silver: I consumed with 3 half coffeespoon in a day without an O. The product was not recommended for internal use, so I was rather unsure about the dosage. Even so this amount showed some benefit. I did not see much change during the day, though the symptoms felt only light. In the evening I developed a weak-moderate buttocks inflammation, similarly to what may happen with a zinc supplement. I also felt some sporadic prostatic pain during the evening. At least when I got up during the night I certainly felt better. I was more aware, thus less depressed, but my sleep quality also suffered possibly due to this. The rhinitis also felt reduced, though nasal congestion was an issue as most of the time. In the morning the libido felt improved. Gut issues were weakly better. It certainly seems like colloidal silver helps with POIS symptoms maybe to a moderate level, however at the same time side-effects and possible toxicity may not make its use worthwhile.

From this point every test was conducted while taking other stuff as well. This makes it really difficult to differentiate individual effects. At least I was taking the new supplements in a greater amount while also trying to avoid really good stuff, though hardly anything works really well anyway.

Tamsulosin (tamsulosin hydrochloride) [0.4 mg; Rd: 1]: I managed to get this as my father was prescribed to it, but refused to take it. I took daily one pill for 10 days and had an O on the 2nd and 4th days. I also had an O on the 11th day, but I had no more pills by then. I had no retrograde ejaculation on either of these occasions, though of course I do masturbate a bit excessively which may modulate outcome. POIS symptoms weren’t too bad, but they weren’t much better either, so tamsulosin does not appear to have a significant impact in general.

SAM-e (S-Adenosyl-L-methionine disulfate tosylate) [100 mg per capsule; Rd: 4 (2x2)]: Yet another supplement I had tested while treating myself. For this reason it is hard to decipher individual effects. At least I can say that it does not help with depression or bloodshot eyes. However it may actually help with gut issues about moderately. At least I am glad that it is not harmful, though I find it too expensive in view of cost-benefit. It also did not resolve my food sensitivities. After continuous use its efficacy also seemed to drop somewhat.

Turmeric powder (supplementary grade): I took this for several weeks as part of a powder tea blend, but unfortunately I can’t say I had noticed a particular benefit while on it.

Glutathione (NOW) [250 mg per capsule; Rd:1]: I tested it while treating myself. Even so I could not really see any particular change on the numerous occasions I took it. I find this a bit disappointing really.

Glutathione complex [150 mg vitamin C, 100 mg glutathione, 100 mg NAC, 90 mg L-glutamine, 60 mg milk thistle, 45 mg L-glycine, 35 mg peppermint, 35 mg oregano powder, 6 mg pantothenic acid, 5 mg lutein, 50ug vitamin D3; Rd:1]: I took daily two on a few days, but once again it wasn’t of particular use. It was possibly a little more useful than the other product, but still not in a significant way and even so the role of glutathione can be questioned as the weak benefit could be due to the other components like NAC.

R-lipoic acid (sodium R-lipoic acid) [50 mg per capsule; Rd:1-2]: It has a noticeable benefit. While not outstanding it helps with gut issues and I think it even has a very slight anti-depressive effect, but this can’t be perceived every time. I guess it has a moderate power.

Oyster mushroom extract (Pleurotus ostreatus) [417 mg per capsule containing 125 mg beta-D-glucan; Rd:1]: Usually I took 2 caps on several days, but I could not see it making any significant difference. It probably helps a little, but not likely more than that. Afterwards I have been taking it for weeks (daily one), yet I could not see any significant benefit.
Pleuran is a beta-glucan derived from it, which should have a benefit in respiratory conditions.

King trumpet mushroom (Pleurotus eryngii) [powder]: Usually I took about 3 x 1/3 teaspoon worth per day put in hot water. Surprisingly it provides a noticeable benefit which once again appears about 6 hours after intake. I was feeling a little better and even got a little anti-depression out of it. The most significant effect was probably the reduction in the burning pain problem. It is interesting to note that one study finds that specifically Pleurotus eryngii contains compounds that show an anti-aromatase activity, which further confirms its key role in my case.

(generic) Propolis [165 mg per capsule containing 12.5 mg flavonoid; Rd:2]: Generally I have been taking 2-3 for several days. It also seems to have a positive effect on rhinitis, but this effect is less pronounced than of the Brazilian bee propolis trio. It may get a weaker moderate score.

Maca extract (yet another brand) (Lepidium meyenii) [400 mg of 5:1 extract per capsule; Rd:1]: As usual I took 3 in a day. This one had a really significant effect. It was kind of a pleasant surprise as I have been taking other maca products fairly regularly with only minimal benefit. This only shows that one really has to try maca extracts of different brands to see a benefit and even among them the efficacy can be very varied even when considering the proportion of the extract. As usual I would suddenly begin to feel kind of well about six hours after intake. It was even better when I took it along with hericium or king trumpet mushroom.

Lion's mane mushroom (Hericium erinaceus) [500 mg per capsule containing 100 mg polysaccharides; Rd:1]: I took 3 in a day, but even after the first one it was clearly beneficial. About 6 hours after intake I began to feel well. The next day I combined it with maca extract and saffron and I felt really well as a result. At least its anti-depressive effect lasted more than many of the other anti-depressant supplements, which makes this a prospective choice.

Monolaurin (Glyceryl Monolaurate [GML] derived from coconut) [500 mg per capsule; Rd:1]: I took daily two capsules for several days. I don’t think it has any anti-depressive effect. However I believe it has a relatively good effect on rhinitis. It wasn’t as good as the brazilian propolis trio, but still provided a noticeable benefit. I think I also noticed some reduction in the burning pain of urination. On one of the days when I took the two caps closer in time I experienced some prostatic cramps that may have been due to monolaurin, though of course not necessarily as I had not experienced such on the following days. At the time I was also recovering from some infection, but I could not see an actual improvement in the slow recovery process. Thus monolaurin has some benefits, but I wouldn’t claim it to be very significant.

Shark liver oil complex [Ingredients in one liquid flow capsule: 100 mg alkoxy glycerols, 10 mg squalane, 10 mg garlic extract (0.2 mg allicin, 0.35 mg alliin), 200 ug vit A, 25 ug vit D, 3 mg vit E, 5 mg zinc; Rd:2]: I took daily two for more than a week. I can’t say I had noticed any considerable change though. Either the source is not sufficient to reach an adequate plasmalogen level or it has a lesser role in acute treatment and works more as a preventive, just like vitamin D. Actually I think this specific product could be a good addition to a stack based on its ingredient list.

Shark liver oil (from Iceland shark) [One softgel capsule contains 25 mg omega-3 fatty acids and 100 mg alkoxy glycerols; Rd:2]: I took daily one capsule. Once again there was nothing striking about it, but I decided to keep on taking it as part of a daily stack due to its supposed health benefits. I have been taking it for weeks now (daily one), but I couldn’t notice any significant improvement, so I guess it could be good for general health, but not for POIS specifically.

Oregano capsules [150 mg from 1500 mg oregano (10:1 extract) containing 70% carvacrol; Rd:1]: I have been taking it alongside other stuff for more than two months, but I couldn’t see it doing anything significant. It probably helps a little, but it is certainly less beneficial than the oregano oil essence, like I did not experience any muscle relief. At one time I took two caps at once, but the only thing that happened is that I developed a moderate headache a few hours later. Even so other symptoms did not change whatsoever. While I was taking daily one no such headache happened at least, so it appears fairy safe otherwise.

Apple cider vinegar [400 mg per capsule; Rd:2]: I took a whole box, but only one per day before going to sleep. I can’t say I have noticed any significant benefit, but in the past I have already had a positive experience with apple cider vinegar for sleep issues. I believe it makes a good combination with myricetin in this regard, so I will continue taking it as part of a night stack.

Turkesterone (Ajuga Turkestanica) [600 mg per capsule standardized to 10% turkesterone; Rd:2]: I took 3 in a day and had an O. This is another testosterone booster that I expected to have some benefit. It really did so as it clearly had some anti-depressive effect. It also had some positive effect on the eyes, though they still became a little worse after O. Of course it did not resolve POIS completely, but it is still a nice supplement nonetheless. As an ecdysteroid turkesterone’s effect rather resembles that of ecdysterone, though I can’t really say which is better at the moment. It clearly goes in the best category.

Fadogia agrestis [600 mg 10:1 stem extract per capsule; Rd: 1]: Yet another testosterone booster. Similarly to before I took 3 in a day and had an O. I could not experience an anti-depressive effect as with turkesterone and due to my disappointment and on a whim I took some other testosterone boosters (Catuaba+Diosgen (Wild Yam)+Rhaponticum tribulus+Giloy) along with it in the afternoon. Now in the evening I had some crazy good sexual performance as it felt like I have an unlimited endurance. After O I still felt slightly worse, but eye symptoms did not deteriorate as they usually do. I also noticed that I could move around easier both in the evening and morning, though I still had some muscle pain. Yet in the morning I had some usual POIS symptoms, so the protective effect could not hold that much. Of course at the moment I can’t really say if Fadogia is effective at all, but I suspect it is one of those testosterone boosters that need more time to set in as in the case of Cistanche.

Pure Royal Jelly: I took half a teaspoon 3 times in a day. Unfortunately it did not have any profound effect. It did not seem to provide an anti-depressive effect, though in the evening I may have felt a little less depressed. The eyes also did not seem to improve, though I masturbated some in the afternoon and they did not become particularly worse either. In the morning there was a clear reduction in the pain of urination, which may be the most significant effect, unless it was due to something else I took. The rhinitis was possibly slightly better, but propolis is certainly more useful in this regard. I used a higher amount than recommended, thus I would have expected some better results. I think it is a good idea to mix it in honey and use it that way and not as a singular supplement. Some time ago I also used up the royal ginseng capsules and I think that ginseng was the more active principle. I guess it deserves a weak-moderate rating when used alone.

Hericium powder: I took 3 half teaspoon worth in a day. It was a bit of a letdown. It had some anti-inflammatory effect, but it did not have an anti-depressive effect. I don’t think it was a quality issue as it came from the same producer as the king trumpet mushroom, however in this form the latter was more effective. Later I may try to encapsulate both and see if that makes a difference in their effectiveness. I guess if anyone wants to see if medicinal mushrooms could be useful, then they should really choose the extract types.

Suppository for prostatitis [ingredients: pumpkin seed, gotu kola, Boswellia oil extract, immortelle, Vitamin E, tea tree, hyaluronic acid, semisynthetic glycerides; Rd:1]: I have been applying it for more than a month now by using daily one. It is claimed to begin to work after about 1 month. For me it works right away, but only for a few hours and even so the resolution is only partial and mostly involves the local burning pain, however not other symptoms. I think its effect got a little better on the second week as the anus was not feeling as painful as usual when I applied it. Unfortunately I couldn’t see any further improvements henceforth even after one month. Whenever I have an O the burning pain would still punch through this protective barrier like molten lava. Nevertheless it is certainly a nice complimentary to oral supplements that would take a lot of time to reach the site of action and their effect would also dwindle on the way. As a further measure I have been applying some hemorrhoid creams mostly as a preventive measure. They can reduce the local irritation temporarily, but the severe itching would still punch through most of the time. I guess the Aurobin ointment is more powerful at least.

Niacin (vitamin B3) [10 mg; Rd: 1 (62.5%)]: I took 10, 20 and 30 mg along a day (60 mg altogether) and had an O. It was a nice surprise as even the first pill produced a noticeable benefit, which was about the same as of one pill of niacinamide (500 mg). The latter doses worked even better. However there was no flushing in any case or I just missed it. The timing also followed the 6-7 hour pattern. I felt the best when I woke up in the middle of the night, which was about 7-8 hours after the third dose. I was really aware with reduced depression and even the photophobia felt quite reduced. The muscles also felt like they had more energy. By morning the symptoms felt more like on a chronic day. I guess niacin deserves a place in the best category.

Cordyceps extract (Cordyceps sinensis) [1 pill contains 200 mg extract with 80 mg (40%) of polysaccharides; Rd: 2]: I took 4 pills in a day and had an O. It had some use, but it wasn’t powerful like the hericium capsules or niacin from the other days. It did not have a clear anti-depressive effect or only a slight one. The sexual function felt mostly average. The ejaculate was somewhat burning and POIS began a little worse this time. In the morning I wasn’t particularly unwell at least. I think this particular product deserves a weak-moderate rating.

Lactoferrin powder (bovine origin) [contains all 3 forms, but mostly apo lactoferrin; Rd: 2-4g or max 3x4g (12g)]: I took with 5 teaspoons (about 10 g) in a day. A few hours after intake I would feel slightly better, but this wasn’t that remarkable. Gut issues also appeared a little better, but not significantly. I guess similarly to other prebiotics lactoferrin acts more like a protective agent and should be taken more like a preventive, but it won’t acutely resolve the inflammation. Taking this much daily would be quite costly, so I will probably take it in a small amount just like the other prebiotics (inulin, beta glucan).

Milk thistle extract (Silybum marianum) [500 mg per capsule containing 400 mg of silymarin; Rd: 1-2]: I took 3 caps in a day alongside other stuff. The eyes were quite alright in the early afternoon, probably due to a synergy with the morning stack, but later they were more like average. I think I felt a slight anti-depressive effect at its peak, but otherwise it wasn’t particularly effective. Gut issues were somewhat better, but it wasn’t terrific. I guess it deserves a moderate score.

Herbal Gallbladder care [1 capsule contains: 140 mg milk thistle (98 mg silymarin), 140 mg burdock, 140 mg dandelion, 300 ug vitamin B6; Rd:1]: I took 3 caps in a day. I did not find it to be particularly useful. Maybe it has some positive effect on gut issues. At the same time my eyes were moderately bad throughout the day. It may have been something I ate, but vitamin B6 could be suspected as well. At least I did not have a gallbladder pain, which is often a problem, when taking many supplements together.

Lycopene [20 mg per softgel capsules; Rd: 1]: I took 3 capsules in a day. I clearly felt better right after the first capsule. It has some anti-depressive effect. In the afternoon I masturbated some and the symptoms were only slightly worse afterwards. The morning certainly felt better than on an average day. While lycopene does not solve every problem, it is still a really nice supplement. I can certainly put this in the best category.

Male Vascular Sexual Support/Black Ginger (Kaempferia parviflora) [100 mg rhizome extract std. to 5% 5,7-dimethoxyflavone; Rd:1]: I took 3 capsules in a day and had an O. It wasn’t as good as lycopene, but it had some use. In the evening I masturbated and had an O. Strangely the sexual performance was kind of bad contrary to my expectations. I had a low libido and it was really hard too keep up the flag. It may have been sexual exhaustion from the previous day, but who knows. At least symptoms only became a little worse after the event. In the morning I felt much like on a usual day, so it must have had some preventive effect at least. Interestingly when I woke up in the morning the flag was erect, though this was nowhere as strong as with asafoetida. It may deserve a moderate-good rating, but its effect on sexual function has to be verified.

Catalase [1 capsule contains 5000 UI catalase enzyme and 400 mg Vitamin C; Rd:1]: I took 2 caps in a day and had an O. Even though I am kind of sure in the involvement of lipid peroxidation, still it doesn’t seem like either glutathione or catalase to be particularly useful. The sexual function was better than on the previous day, but still mostly average. At O the ejaculation was burning more than usual. Even so symptoms did not rapidly get worse afterwards and only a little worse by bedtime. As a possible side-effect I felt some tension in the head in the evening, which made me skip on a third capsule. The morning felt mostly average, but at least it was not particularly bad. There may have been some reduction in the pain of urination, but I am not sure. Thus catalase may have some protective power, but it doesn’t seem to be able to improve symptoms any significantly. It gets a weak score.

Betaine HCL [1 capsule contains: 650 mg betaine HCL and 150 mg pepsin; Rd:1]: I took 3 caps in a day. It may work, but in a subdued way. I could not see a direct anti-depressive effect as depression was light and unchanged throughout the day. In the afternoon I developed a weak headache, but it was only weakly present by morning, so I am not sure if it is a side-effect. In the morning I also had a nasal congestion, which was clearly due to betain HCL. Rhinitis was probably reduced as a consequence, though it is hard to tell, as it wasn’t strong to begin with. I don’t think it improved gut issues particularly much, but it may have some benefit. I have already tried a digestive enzyme complex several years ago and it seemed to help with food coma that often exacerbates baseline depression. Lactase enzyme similarly helped in conjunction with milk consumption, so I guess betaine with pepsin could be used for a similar purpose to take some burden off the body.

Thyme and propolis [1 capsule contains 130 mg thyme leaf, 130 mg propolis, 80 mg vitamin C, 40 mg shiitake mushroom; Rd:1]: I took 3 caps in a day. It probably helps a little, but I couldn’t see a significant improvement. In the morning POIS was a little worse actually, but I suspect it was due to something I ate. Though it could be several things I suspect the brazil nuts I ate, that also tasted a little rancid.

Quercetin Plus [1 capsule contains 400 mg quercetin, 100 mg bromelain, 25 mg zinc; Rd:2]: I took 3 caps in a day. Unfortunately I could not see much benefit. It did not have any anti-depressive activity and eye issues didn’t seem better either. Interestingly when I woke up in the morning I couldn’t hear the tinnitus, though after getting up it returned, but this may indicate that quercetin could be useful for this condition long-term. In the morning rhinitis also appeared a little better, though I did not have a nasal congestion. Gut issue were also a little better, though not significantly. While its acute effect is certainly not remarkable quercetin could act in a subdued way that may be beneficial long-term.

Ginseng complex for man [500 mg per capsule containing 70 mg panax ginseng, 250 mg astragalus, 80 mg angelica root; Rd:4]: I had a bit more work than usual and accordingly developed bad bloodshot eyes and muscle pain. However by the time I went home the eyes seemed and felt noticeably better. In the afternoon I took 2 caps at once and early evening I even felt some anti-depression besides feeling a little better overall. When I woke up during the night I felt quite alright, though I couldn’t fall asleep again due to dry eyes, which is a frequent problem. The morning was clearly a bit better than usual and even the muscle fatigue and burning urine condition appeared a little improved. My libido also felt improved in the morning. Its overall efficacy was a little bellow the lycopene supplement that I had tried recently, but still quite nice nevertheless. It goes into the good category.

Myo-inositol [powder; Rd: 2g]: I took 5g (2-1-2g) in a day. I forgot to take my morning stack, but even so it clearly improved bloodshot eyes by the end of work. However as a downside I also developed a bit painful cramping flatulence by this time. By evening this mostly resolved. In the morning I had a slight cramping once again. The eyes were relatively alright, but photophobia persisted. When I woke up in the morning I felt slightly better, but I couldn’t notice any anti-depressive effect otherwise. There wasn’t anything else particularly noteworthy. I think it has about a moderate effect, but the ginseng complex from the other day was clearly better. I also wouldn’t take more than 1g at once as it can clearly lead to cramping trouble.

Loperamide (loperamide hydrochloride) [2 mg per pill; Rd: 1-6 (max: eight)]: I took 4 pills separately in a day and had an O. It does not seem to have an anti-depressive effect, however in the early afternoon I could see some improvement in eye bloodshotness and it had an anti-inflammatory effect on gut issues. Of course this means increased flatulence, but at least it was devoid of cramping unlike myo-inositol. Instead it caused some loud bowel grumbles about 2-3 hours after intake as an inconvenience. The anti-inflammatory effect seemed to peak about 5-6 hours after consumption. I masturbated in two sessions. After the first I had a little precum and there was an increase in eye problems, but they receded by evening. In the evening I had an actual O. I had a good erection, but control was average and had to be careful not to come early. The ejaculate was minimally burning if at all, however interestingly it was smellier than usual or at least it had a strong scent, which is usually less perceptible otherwise. I suspect this indicates some improvement, though I may be wrong about it. After O the eyes got a little worse again, but improved a little once again by the time I was going to bed. Interestingly I also felt like I could move around a little easier in the evening, thus it may have some benefit on muscle fatigue. Unfortunately in the morning the eyes were quite bloodshot and photophobic and I felt just as bad as I would expect on an acute POIS day. In the morning the stool was harder than usual, but not especially so and the burning pain felt rather usual, thus without significant change either way. Given everything it may have a moderate benefit, but constipation is usual bad for me due to toxic accumulation, so I will probably not use it on a daily basis.
By the way I ate about 10 pieces of Physalis in the morning and about two hours later the eye condition certainly improved. It didn’t do much else, but at least it shows that physalis has some clear benefit.

Hi Progecitor,

The research you are doing is awesome. I see you have tried physalis berries.

I have experimented with this berries a lot, trying different time frames and amounts.

The thing is the effect is barely noticeable, except if I use them in the exact right way, that I described in a post.
If they are used correctly, they prevent POIS from happening for me (it works only before orgasm). But if I miss the time frame, they have 0 effect.
In my opinion, that is why some people try them and think they are useless.

Some people tried them and have answered my post, saying that it worked 100% preventing POIS for them too.

Here is the link : https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3306.0

I think it's worth a try 

Keep me posted

[Warrior]

Maca extract (yet another brand) (Lepidium meyenii) [400 mg of 5:1 extract per capsule; Rd:1]: As usual I took 3 in a day. This one had a really significant effect. It was kind of a pleasant surprise as I have been taking other maca products fairly regularly with only minimal benefit. This only shows that one really has to try maca extracts of different brands to see a benefit and even among them the efficacy can be very varied even when considering the proportion of the extract. As usual I would suddenly begin to feel kind of well about six hours after intake. It was even better when I took it along with hericium or king trumpet mushroom.

Nice list! I plan on really exploring all the different medicinal herbs, adaptogens, apitherapy, medicinal shrooms, etc. So much interesting stuff to explore.

I'm planning on giving Maca a try soon. It arrives tomorrow actually!

I've been reading up on it and theres actually a few things you need to make sure of when choosing Maca for maximum therpaeutic benefit.

- Maca must be sundried or cooked for therapeutic benefits. It cannot be raw (and can actually be dangerous if you consume it raw)
- Black maca is generally known as the most potent type of Maca, but theres actually yellow and red maca that can all have unique therapeutic abilities depending on what ailments you are trying to fix
- A good site for learning more is https://themacaexperts.com/
- I didn't realise, but Maca is actually incredibly therapeutic and has a very rich history of use in Peruvian culture. Quality is especially important when it comes to Maca
- You can mix different Maca colours designed for unique therapeutic results
- I'm going to try this 'Maca for Men' which is a special ratio mix of black, red, and yellow maca. I'm also going to take it combination with black maca. Brand I'm buying from is Seleno Health here in Aus (which is a parent company to themacaexperts)

[Progecitor]

Recently some bug stung my left shin while I was riding the bicycle. Unfortunately I couldn't see what it was due to the jeans, but it was most probably a wasp that got under the cover accidentally. Interestingly following this in just half an hour I developed a right-sided chest inflammation that resembled the one I often get after POIS onset. Other POIS symptoms like bloodshot eyes did not turn particularly worse though. The flare resolved in about 3 days, which is also how it usually happens. This one felt to be a deeper one more towards the lung, which is the less frequent type as usually it is more connected to the inflamed breast lymph nodes. The site of the "bite" on the leg was less inflamed and certainly less painful compared to the chest inflammation where taking a deep breath would also hurt. I took cetirizine, ambroxol and a lot of other things, but they did not help appreciably. Thus even if I use a lot of anti-inflammatory supplements this symptom won't get better overnight and its healing needs some time. This makes me believe that the cause is tissue injury by excessive inflammation.
MCAS and other inflammatory components could be suspected to play some role in its pathology.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9615201/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/wasp-venom

[Progecitor]

Recently some bug stung my left shin while I was riding the bicycle. Unfortunately I couldn't see what it was due to the jeans, but it was most probably a wasp that got under the cover accidentally. Interestingly following this in just half an hour I developed a right-sided chest inflammation that resembled the one I often get after POIS onset. Other POIS symptoms like bloodshot eyes did not turn particularly worse though. The flare resolved in about 3 days, which is also how it usually happens. This one felt to be a deeper one more towards the lung, which is the less frequent type as usually it is more connected to the inflamed breast lymph nodes. The site of the "bite" on the leg was less inflamed and certainly less painful compared to the chest inflammation where taking a deep breath would also hurt. I took cetirizine, ambroxol and a lot of other things, but they did not help appreciably. Thus even if I use a lot of anti-inflammatory supplements this symptom won't get better overnight and its healing needs some time. This makes me believe that the cause is tissue injury by excessive inflammation.
MCAS and other inflammatory components could be suspected to play some role in its pathology.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9615201/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/wasp-venom

By the way the wasp I mentioned earlier must have been a greater one or an actual hornet as another smaller wasp stung me recently and the wound was hardly visible compared to the previous time. The site (left hand) was itchy for a few days, but no systemic reaction occurred unlike before. I guess this means that the systemic reaction must have been only due to the volume of the wasp venom itself as I don’t appear to be particularly allergic to wasp stings otherwise.

[Progecitor]

My current experience

I have been treating myself for over a year now, but to my disappointment I haven’t made any significant progress to cure myself. The most fundamental statement I can make about POIS is that it is just too damn powerful. On one hand I find that practically every supplement is useful against POIS, on the other hand practically everything stops working or drops in efficacy after a short while. This is most usually around 1 or 2 days and sometimes a bit more, however afterwards they don’t provide the noticeable benefit that they had done initially. At least in some cases drug resistance/tolerance disappeared after an extended amount of time (several months) and once again there was a perceptible benefit for one or two days. I have to emphasize that I develop a tolerance not only to herbal remedies and pharmaceuticals, but to vitamins and minerals as well. Disregarding the tolerance issues at least the effective supplements outline the nature of the underlying inflammatory condition.

The time frame when supplements are effective is also rather inconvenient. For some reason 6.5 hours seems to be the magic number following consumption, when mostly everything shows its peak benefit. Most often there is an increase in flatulence at this time, which is clearly associated to the anti-inflammatory effect. Most interestingly as drug resistance develops not only the anti-inflammatory effect gets weaker, but the flatulence as well even if it was strong before. This peak is also when I most often get a transient anti-depressive effect. Transient means that I experience a sudden clarity and my sight changes from fuzzy to focused that lasts a few minutes, then half an hour passes and I feel just alright and then an hour or two passes and I realize that I am back in the mind-fog prison. Needless to say this makes it practically impossible to get any benefit that would last throughout the day. I take the supplements in the morning, mid afternoon and late evening before bedtime. Thus during work I would not get any benefit and only begin to feel a little better by the time I was going home, however due to work induced PEM the benefit would be often reduced. Physical fatigue and pain is usually an issue in the early afternoon and I am prone to food coma around this time. By the time the afternoon dose would be working I usually started to feel mentally fatigued and tired, which once again blunts the benefit, though at least muscle pain is usually reduced by this time and I can sometimes do exercises. Then during the night I would sometimes wake up feeling quite well from the evening dose, but after sleeping a few more hours I would more likely wake up feeling messed up as usual indicating the end of the effectiveness window.

The second principal rule is that negative effects are always stronger than positive ones. Of course fatigue is the main contributor. I find that when I don’t sleep enough my general condition is worse. Unfortunately due to POIS I am rather slow and enervated in practically everything I do and I never get ahead with anything. For this reason usually I try to save time on sleeping which is probably not a good idea, thus I only sleep about 7 hours daily, which is clearly inadequate with such a disease. I have to say that when I am tired practically nothing works and even the best supplements only have transient and reduced effects. This is also true when eating POIS mimetics as they mess up my digestion and or eyes and the damage is less repairable. Daily working and/or training and ensuing muscle pain and/or fever also turns POIS intensity up a notch. Of course sexual activity is the “best” inducer, but I have plenty of POIS symptoms even without that most of the time.

Another important finding after a year of treatment is that things that did not show promise in the first few days would not start magically working even after weeks of use. To the contrary it is more of a problem that things that worked well for the first time would usually lose some of their efficacy with continued use making their benefit less perceptible. Combining stuff also does not lead to synergies and not even linear additions. It feels more like a partial addition, which may not necessarily result in a significant difference. And yet the occasions I felt the best were when I started several supplements together, that I knew would be quite useful, however they would still lose their efficacy nonetheless.

In the first half year I mostly took about 30 supplements per day, but in the second half I upped it to about 50, though sometimes I take even more than this if I count everything. Of course the supplement term mostly means boxed and encapsulated herbal medicines, but it also includes the morning smoothies, which usually consist of about 10 powdered stuff and the mixed herbal teas that usually consist of about 10 herbs and I mainly drink them in the afternoon and evening. Normally I put about half to one teaspoon of each powder into the smoothie. Usually I also add about 5 spices to the main meal, disregarding the taste. Initially I only took one of each supplement a day even if the recommended dose was higher due to the high number of combinations. Whenever I tested something new I was using a higher dose, so that any possible benefit would shine through. Lately though I would more likely to take recommended doses to see if it was worth buying again or a complete waste of money as it usually turns out.

Of course I ran into side-effects as well. Earlier gallbladder pain was quite common and I even suspended herbal teas for a time as that was the most likely cause. A higher dose of medicinal mushrooms also did that and I suspect liver toxicity behind this. Lowering the amount of supplements would usually solve this in a day or two, but even when the pain was stronger it would still resolve in 3-4 days without any remaining problem. I could even restart herbal teas after a while and with careful selection I had no such issues lately despite taking double the number of supplements than before. I also couldn’t see the eyes getting any yellower at any times, though this clearly indicates some toxic pressure on the liver. Interestingly my POIS symptoms are not in correlation as I would usually feel just as usual even when the pain was high and lowering the number of supplements would actually allow POIS to creep back to a heightened state. Of note the resolution pattern is similar to the chest inflammation and it also resembles in that the pain is only dull when at rest, however any kind of movement, especially when leaning forward would cause a sharp pain. Thus this may indicate some internal injury. Another problem is headache development, but only a few supplements do this (e.g. chinese skullcap, alfalfa, etc.) and I realized that lowering doses would reduce the risk of such happening and even if not a pain killer would reliably help. A more common problem is bloodshot eyes. This is quite troublesome as the same supplement may help with other symptoms though. Nevertheless a supplement with such a POIS mimetic effect is a no go for me even if it proved useful for other POISers (e.g. black cumin oil, folic acid). Some miscellaneous side effects like tinnitus often disappeared with continued use (e.g. phosphatidylserine, astaxanthin, noni), but their effectiveness also diminished at the same time. I had rather bad lower back pains, that are not part of my POIS and they were clearly caused by lion’s mane mushroom and possibly by gotu kola. Lately I also had some rather bad epigastrial cramps even when taking supplements that seemed safe before. Actually I realized that it must have been due to a higher dose of NAC, but a daily dose of 500 mg does not seem to hurt at all. Of course due to the high number of supplements I can never be sure if there is some progressive damage in the background, but currently I feel just fine if not considering POIS.

The measure/scale of treatability:

The first is the most easily treated while the last is the most difficult one. I can treat 1-3 relatively well, while 4-5 only moderately and 6-7 only barely, thus objectively I would say that the POIS reduction is about 40 percent with such an intense treatment, though subjectively I would more likely to say 10 or 20 percent given how I feel most of the time. As I mentioned before when starting something new with a greater effectiveness I may get a 50-60 percent resolution, but after a day or two I would plummet back to 10-20 percentile due to developing tolerance.

1. headache
2. chest inflammation (pleural effusion?)
3. rhinitis, urinary burning
4. bloodshot eyes (conjunctival hyperemia)
5. anal burning and itching
6. muscle pain and joint crackling (myalgia and osteoarthritis)
7. depression and photophobia (encephalitis)

1. The headache was most of an issue in my earlier POIS years and less so in the past years. I think this problem mostly occurred when I had a bad POIS and also ate POIS mimetics at the same time. Figuring out some of the worst mimetics and avoiding them was an important step. Always getting enough fresh air is also a key measure. Some pain killers like Quarelin (practically Algopyrin + No-Spa) can also help a lot with this issue. Daily bowel movements to avoid systemic LPO trapping and accumulation is also crucial in this regard.

2. Reducing the frequency and intensity of the chest inflammations is one of the best result I got by treating myself. A few years ago I regularly had such painful episodes that I thought I would die. Now this hardly ever happens or even if it does the pain is usually only weak or moderate and may last only a few hours and not for days as it did before. Actually recently I had a 3 days moderate episode which was unusual as it happened in the chronic phase. My mother had a bad infection at the same time as she was coughing like crazy, thus I suspect this occurrence may have been due to that even if no other infection-like symptoms had developed in my case. Another peculiar one occurred when a hornet stung me, which is rather indicative of the underlying mechanism.

3. These problems are less bothersome and more like an inconvenience, and maybe that is the reason that even a partial treatment feels like a result. Interestingly treating rhinitis often leads to partial nasal congestion, which may be inconvenient, but at least the inflammation is reduced. Brazilian propolis and monolaurin were some of the better treatments for this issue. The burning pain of urination clearly correlates to muscle pain, as at the end of work I would always have increased muscle pain and a more intensely burning urine at the same time. Then sitting for a few hours after work would usually reduce both the muscle pain and urinary burning to a weak-moderate level. The urgency of urination must be due to the accumulation of specific LPOs. Even at a small volume of urine the irritation makes it a necessity to void or otherwise a discomforting feeling persists. Unfortunately routine lab tests are unable to show anything about this. The best treatment for this issue is corn silk tea. Unfortunately it does not do much else and the effect is temporary like for practically everything, but the impact is undeniable. I just have to wonder why is it not more popular in the prostatitis group when it has such an evident benefit. Another supplement that has a great impact on urinary issues is pterostilbene. It also reduces the burning pain to a lesser degree, but what is really peculiar that it can greatly increase the force of urination. In the past decade I got used to sitting while peeing as the stream is weak and intermittent, however when taking pterostilbene I can often do it while standing. The only downside is that when the urge comes I have to do it very soon as otherwise I would develop a really bad bladder cramping. I found that the one from Swanson was particularly effective, while I bought a cheaper one as well, which had a way reduced effect, but the cramping was also not an issue with that one.

4. Bloodshot eyes are an ever present issue. I have found quite a lot of supplements for this issue and even so this does not mean that I can actually treat it well. The problem is that they mostly provide the benefit around the peak hour which takes a lot of time to wait for and then the effect is rather temporary as well. Additionally when I am tired and the POIS force is strong the benefit becomes very transient and barely perceptible if at all. The same is true for POIS onset after an O. I can evidently ameliorate the symptom with well timed supplements, however the initiation is so powerful that it just can’t be prevented completely. Drinking coffee was like shoveling coal onto the fire in this regard and I berate myself for doing so for about 20 years. For a year I only drank filtered coffee which clearly provided a step down compared to how it had been before and even so it had a less perceptible negative effect and a more perceptible one when drinking a little more even if it was filtered. Thus a few months ago (about 5) I completely stopped drinking coffee. Of course this did not make POIS much tolerable, but at least took out another co-inducer from the equation.
A closely associated problem is dry and straining eyes. This tends to be a night issue for me that almost always starts around 9 p.m. possibly as another step on the fatigue ladder, though it may be present during the day as well. Though mostly an annoyance it can certainly prevent sleeping back during the night. Eye drops may temporarily (a few minutes) help with dry eyes and have a little stabilizing effect generally though it can’t prevent or reverse the emergence of bloodshot eyes.
I have already collected some of the supplements that were useful for bloodshot eyes in a separate post, so I won’t repeat them here.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3798.msg46077#msg46077
There are also some that I have not mentioned before like Rhodiola, elderberry, rutin or high dose vitamin D, and so I will do a revision later. Unfortunately developing drug resistance is a serious issue and after a few days even combinations of them have only a little benefit, which is only enough to save me from the worst of POIS.

5. This symptom is even more stubborn than the previous one and it is at the core of my disease. The reason evidently being that it is the epicenter of the inflammation. It is interesting to see that so many people have this issue in the prostatitis group along with the burning urination and even so they don’t identify with POIS itself. I have already figured out that the burning pain is due to the excessive amount of lipid peroxides (LPO) present at the site. The difference is probably that in our case the ROS generation is more connected to the sexual activity. I also believe that due to this our disease shows a much more exaggerated fluctuation compared to baseline inflammation. The people in the prostatitis group mostly experience localized symptoms, while in our case after an O event the inflammation is so exorbitant that we develop systemic symptoms due to LPO OVERsaturation and OVERspill. The prefix of OVER really just feels a mild term to describe the actual truth behind this statement. Nevertheless the supplements that helped with this issue were mostly strong antioxidants and testosterone boosters. To name some: raw black cumin, thyme, cat’s claw, passion flower, R-lipoic acid, Q10, boron, ginger tea, white horehound tea, sage tea, dandelion root, grape seed, grapefruit seed, CBD oil, beta-sitosterol etc. Once again drug resistance is a serious issue as practically everything gets progressively less beneficial even if taken in an increased amount.
I have been on a low gluten diet for about 9 months. This means that I had stopped buying any kind of bread or buns and rolls in bakeries and instead bake them myself using gluten free flour such as rice and corn flour. I often add healthy ingredients as well. For example Goji berries are a constant addition, but I often added things like milk thistle seed, black sesame seeds, black cumin, chia seeds, linseed, inulin, turmeric, moringa, parsley and a variety of other spices, though it would often kill the yeast if I added too many things resulting in a solid spicy mass rather than any kind of bread, so I am less liberal these days. Actually in the last few weeks I gave up on this and returned to buying bread. However I only buy a kind of vitality bread made from spelt and I think it is actually better for POIS than the homemade bread I make. I suspect that the reduction of sugar is more important than the reduction of gluten.
I also cut back on milk especially after quitting coffee. I realize I can get pretty bad food comas due to it, so I plan to reduce milk consumption even more. Instead I try to eat more yogurt and kefir.
I still eat my mother’s home cooking which often contains gluten and other troublesome ingredients. Unfortunately consuming any POIS mimetics is a serious detriment and can mostly nullify any benefit provided by otherwise good supplements.

6. muscle pain and joint crackling
Muscle pain is a persistent issue. I get up with muscle pain then go to work only for it to get progressively worse. Fortunately most of the time I only do 4-6 hours of light-moderate physical activity which results in moderate muscle pain and moderately burning urine by the time I get home. However there are a fewer days when I have to work 8-10 or rarely even more hours. After such days I usually get home with a strong muscle pain and a really painful burning urine as well. The correlation between the muscle pain and the burning urine is undeniable and this is further reinforced by the fact that after sitting a few hours following work not only the muscle pain gets less intense, but at the same time the burning intensity of the urine in perfect parallel. Actually I believe this could be a major distinction from ME/CFS as I couldn’t see anyone particularly mentioning this problem on their sites. The bloodshot eyes are also in perfect “harmony” to the two previous symptoms. The more intense the work was the more brutal eye symptoms I would develop. Lasting muscle pain or fever (days) after a workout would also mess up my eyes majorly even if I was theoretically out of a POIS episode and otherwise not doing anything that particular day. My legs are more involved in the muscle pain, but the arms also hurt when lifting some weight or doing other physical activity. Sometimes just washing my teeth becomes a toil due to pain in the upper arm. Otherwise I only feel a dull pain when at rest.

The joint pain and crackling mostly involves the knees and it feels like an extension of the muscle pain. The worse muscle pain was the more issues I would have with the knees. Fortunately during work I don’t really notice the knee problems and I can mostly overcome the leg pain with willpower. However the knee problem is very apparent when I sit down to rest at home and when I try to stand up I am immediately faced with this unpleasant pain and crackling. After a longer work day the feet also tends to crackle a lot. On the rare occasion the muscle pain improved there was a clear reduction in knee pain as well and it felt much more flexible. While joint support supplements are clearly beneficial, they can’t really do anything as long as I can’t somehow solve the muscle pain problem. A lot of sleeping can usually help with muscle pain, though there are times when I wake up with more pain than I went to bed with. This maybe due to the hindered excretion of LPOs as I can’t urinate while sleeping unless I wake up due to the urge, but this itself indicates that the problem is quite bad by that time. This problem is also elevated by some POIS mimetics I ate the day before and of course it is very evident at POIS onset as well. I may have a really smooth, relaxed feeling in the muscles on the day of an O, but either several hours later or as more often happens when getting out of the bed in the morning I am suddenly faced with an increased, mostly moderate degree of pain. Of course starting work in such a condition is a really bad omen for the afternoon.
There were only a few supplements that provided a very noticeable improvement in this regard and even so they only worked like an hour and then drug tolerance or tachyphylaxis happened. The following are a few examples: rutin, oregano oil essence, ganoderma, niacin, saffron, lungwort tea, ecdysterone, possibly indole-3-carbinol

7. depression and photophobia
These two are practically the most stubborn ones. I am rather sure that both are a sign of an ongoing encephalitis. While photophobia somewhat correlates with bloodshot eyes, it has to be noted that the correlation between depression and photophobia is even stronger. On the rare chance I manage to improve depression photophobia also tends to improve. Both of these are the worst in the morning and their intensity tends to determine my whole day afterwards. While depression is not the only cognitive symptom, its extent clearly determines the others. The more depressed I am the more my thought process falters. At times I feel like I completely stopped thinking or at least my thoughts get very basic, monotonic and uncreative. I can’t recall memories or words in the fuzzy jumble. When paired with PEM after a harder work day the brain fog is mixed with a nauseating vertigo, which makes me unable to do any focused or coherent activity and all my free time is thrown to the trash.
I don’t believe the brain to be the primary site for the inflammation. It is more likely that LPOs constantly pass through the BBB and cause an extended, secondary inflammation.

Antidepressants: some exercises can help that do not lead to muscle fever, saffron, lavender, ecdysterone, damiana, guggul, L-dopa, longjack, drotaverine, licorice, burdock, guduchi, elderberry, vinpocetine, niacin, Mg-citrate, phosphatidylserine, fennel, holy basil, lycopene and maybe some others to a lesser extent. Once again after one or two occasions these also loose their edge and hardly work afterwards, thus I can’t get any constant benefits, not to mention the narrow interval of the peak benefit.
Photophobia: aspirin, resveratrol, the previous anti-depressants, but nothing works consistently.

8. secret symptom
No matter how good I have ever felt, this symptom always remained. It was clearly reduced when all other symptoms were reduced as well, however it had never ceded completely and it always remained to torture me emotionally and remind me of the futility of my battle. I could write a book about what this symptom entails, but revealing it would be a psychological disaster. I also can’t believe that no one else had realized this, but maybe I am just crazier than the rest of the world.

Miscellaneous:

- sleep issues: Though sleeping issues are not a major part of my POIS, if anyone has such problems should definitely try myricetin. This proved to be far better than any other sleep aids, such as melatonin, valeriana or any kind of sleep aid complexes. Myricetin makes it possible to sleep through most nights without waking up in the middle and then not being able to sleep back. An otherwise healthy friend of mine also had irresolvable sleeping issues, though she had tried many things. Nevertheless she also praised myricetin after trying it, thus this effect is not POIS specific.
I also realized that most of my sleeping issues originate from dry eyes that can disturb relaxation and thus sleeping. Interestingly the dry eye problem appears to be a night issue for me as it usually begins to become really bad around 9 p.m., when I am also beginning to get tired. Unfortunately washing only provides a temporary relief as in a few minutes they would be dry again. Recently I have begun experimenting with eye drops and they also help only temporary, but still slightly better than simply washing the eyes, so I see at least some worth in them.

- dopamine agonists: Generally I had a positive experience with dopamine agonists, though they could not achieve a major breakthrough. At least I could not experience any particular detrimental effects either. Unfortunately both catuaba and phenylalanine lost its initially evident anti-depressive effect, and yet I have been taking them regularly. I haven’t yet tried higher doses though. L-dopa proved to be fairly reliable anti-depressant especially when I took it with a bunch other stuff. I bought a new L-tyrozine supplement, but I could not perceive an anti-depressive effect while on it. I have just begun to take bupropion in the last few days, but so far I couldn’t see it making any difference.

- PDE4 inhibitors: I tried to combine different PDE4 inhibitors to see the outcome. I tested a combo of Tongkat ali, drotaverine and Forskolin and they certainly provided a nice relief, though far from complete. Unfortunately again drug tolerance once again dulled the overall effect. By the way the individual anti-depressive effect was greatest for tongkat ali, then drotaverine, while the cAMP booster forskolin only had a mild anti-depressive effect.

- NO boosters: One of my best experience was with NO boosters. They can really nicely increase sexual performance, especially when combined with testosterone boosters. This makes it possible to last a lot longer while edging and provides exceptional control, which makes it easier to abort masturbation when it would come to the culmination. This allowed me to confirm the observation that POIS is indeed caused by the release of the seminal fluid and not due to the physical aspects of sexual activity. I can claim this with great certainty as there were numerous occasions when I did lengthy edgings with NO boosters. I would often go for about an hour without seeing any emerging problems, but some precum would come out sooner or later and exactly then my eyes would get bloodshot right away. I would also get partial symptoms as well like an increased muscle pain the next day. Of course if I later had a full ejaculation the symptoms would manifest to their full extent. This also makes me believe that dry or retrograde ejaculations could also help in my case even if I have not managed to achieve anything like that so far. I also suspect that due to the two layered nature of my POIS, this would only help the autoimmunity part and acute POIS and not with the chronic level of symptoms that are maintained by senescence (SASP).
NO boosters: catuaba, thiamine nitrate, kola nut, guarana, asafoetida, muira puama, ginger.

- bitter stuff: Generally I had some positive experience with bitter stuff (e.g. artichoke, andrographis, neem, etc). However I often find it difficult to consume them, especially in a daily manner. If I mix them in a smoothie, it makes the whole thing hardly consumable. Andrographis was especially bad, as I simply couldn’t swallow it without making grimaces and the help it provided was moderate at best, so I am not altogether sure if it is worth the hassle. Besides andrographis the other stuff that I found to be just as impossible to consume was oregano essential oil. Even one drop is so strong that it is crazy. It is rather unfortunate that this was practically the only form that was actually useful.

- amalgam fillings: At the start of the year I had all three of my amalgam tooth fillings replaced. So far this did not cause any change. It is true though that I got them in my early POIS years around the time I noticed the one week periods. I believe I had POIS by then, but it may be possible that the amalgam fillings contributed to its worsening.

- cleanliness: Showering or bathing after an O does not stop POIS, but certainly helps to blunt it a little. In my case the temperature of the water does not seem to alter much. Nowadays I shower practically every day. In the past there were times when I had gone without for 2 or 3 days. At 3 days I have often noticed that my POIS (e.g. bloodshot eyes and depression) was much worse and taking a bath would make me feel much better. Despite all of this showering often makes my eyes more bloodshot, especially in the evenings. What is really bad though when I do it after a long day of work when PEM is high. In such cases my eyes are very labile and even pure water can turn it very bloodshot, extremely tired and painful that usually needs a full sleep before they recover to a usual state.

- latex: On some occasions I used a condom to masturbate and it definitely helped increasing the time I spent with edging as it reduced the sensation of the stimulation. I could also not experience any problem with the latex itself. Symptoms only appeared after precum or ejaculation as usual and no local reaction at all. Thus while POIS is an atopic condition, it does not necessarily imply allergy to everything.

For me the two leading theories about the cause of POIS are autoimmunity and senescence. At first I couldn’t decide, which is the more likely one, but after thinking about it at length I realized that both must be true. It must have begun with autoimmunity in the beginning when the POIS cycles were more evident and I had clear resolutions after the one week periods. However at some point in time the symptoms became chronic and ever lasting, which must be caused by SASP. I can only speculate when this may have happened, but one possibility is that this transformation was partly behind the increase of POIS strength at the age of 17 about two decades ago. Nowadays it is a 2 layered disease that involves the same inflammatory pathway, which is also the reason it feels the same and is affected by the same factors and medications. The most likely cause of autoimmunity is erroneous viral pattern recognition that misidentifies seminal dsRNA as viral particles, thus initiating the body’s inflammatory defense mechanism. At the same time exhausted senescent cells also pump out a lot of ROS, leading to robust lipid peroxidation. The pure abundance of LPOs and their metabolic products cause a state of sepsis, which manifest as POIS symptoms. By nature this inflammatory mechanism is normally protective, thus the body has a great tolerance against it and this must be the only reason that POIS is not outright lethal and just makes us very ill.

At this point I am not even sure if a cure is possible at all. I suspect I would need to prohibit the inflammation in a sustained manner if I hoped for one. So far I could not achieve that and a partial treatment only seems to dull the symptoms, but the inflammation lingers on. I would need to abstain more if I wanted to go towards this goal, but I tend to fail in this. The most I did last year were 3 and 4 weeks, however even at 4 weeks I felt generally unwell. At least I feel a step down after a week, but the difference isn’t that big.
Finding a sufficient treatment may take years, but I am rather dismayed that a last chance to have a family is slipping away right now. Nevertheless there is no other choice than the patient one, even if life passes by.

[Progecitor]

A microscope? Ideas on pois blod examing? https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=4188.msg44773#msg44773


Pinhead sperm, a variation of the small-head sperm, is when the head appears as a pin with minimal to no paternal DNA content. The presence of pinhead sperm may point to a diabetic condition.

Sperm Morphology | Loma Linda University Center for Fertility ...

Thanks for this idea even if it is a bit late!
I gave up on microscopy some time ago as it was kind of a hassle and I couldn’t see the point after several occasions. There were some pin heads, but most of the time the majority seemed to have normal heads, thus the significance of these observations is questionable. An association to diabetes is probably an association to metabolic syndrome as well. Furthermore I think metabolic syndrome mostly equals lipid peroxidation as it means a generalized inflammation caused by excessive LPOs. Thus anyone with such a chronic inflammatory state probably has an altered sperm profile as well.
I was also considering to do some blood tests as you had mentioned, and wanted to take samples before and after an O. However when I decided to do so I simply couldn’t puncture myself. I tried to push the needle into one of the fingers, but it was not piercing and I grew so frustrated that I abandoned the idea. While I often get bloody scratches during work, I find it difficult to hurt myself voluntarily. It is also a problem that I have to work with my hands every day and such a wound can be painful for a week which makes grasping with it really annoying.

[Progecitor]

You may use the AI for a quick overview which staining/dyes highlight specific components of sperm. If I remember correctly Methylene blue might stain mast cells but some granules will show up with a different color than blue. The problem is that you do not have a reference of normal cell biology in general.

Do you think the mast cells are actually in the ejaculate?
Nevertheless I got some Methylene Blue some time ago and dropped some on the ejaculate sample when I last used the microscope. This turned out really funny as all the spermatozoa were swimming around with blue heads that was quite bizarre. Of course this is on top of doing microscopy on ones own sperm, which is quite bizarre as it is. Nevertheless I can’t say this lead to any new revelations and even if it has some problems my sperm appears mostly alright. I guess men with infertility issues must have even worse quality sperm and even so they probably don’t have POIS. As it was unlikely that doing microscopy would lead to any new information and because it is such a hassle, especially after an O I gave up on doing it a few months ago.

[Muon]

Mast cells can be found in seminal fluid (in fertile men, infertile men or both?). I do not know what concentration is involved.

[Progecitor]

By the way I ate about 10 pieces of Physalis in the morning and about two hours later the eye condition certainly improved. It didn’t do much else, but at least it shows that physalis has some clear benefit.

Hi Progecitor,

The research you are doing is awesome. I see you have tried physalis berries.

I have experimented with this berries a lot, trying different time frames and amounts.

The thing is the effect is barely noticeable, except if I use them in the exact right way, that I described in a post.
If they are used correctly, they prevent POIS from happening for me (it works only before orgasm). But if I miss the time frame, they have 0 effect.
In my opinion, that is why some people try them and think they are useless.

Some people tried them and have answered my post, saying that it worked 100% preventing POIS for them too.

Here is the link : https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3306.0

I think it's worth a try 

Keep me posted

I am sorry to hear that physalis stopped working for you and I hope you find something else soon.
Unfortunately I don’t think timing would change much in my case. To begin with I have chronic POIS and the symptoms are rather persistent. Thus when I have an O it does not initiate symptoms, but only makes them worse. It is true that there is a significant exacerbation in a short amount of time on such occasions. I have already found several good supplements that could ameliorate POIS to a great degree even at onset, however practically everything drops in efficacy very rapidly making them much less useful. I don’t think there were any occasions when POIS was completely prevented, but there were a few times when the supplements could greatly ameliorate the onset. Even so in the following days POIS would still emerge to some degree even though I would still take the supplements continuously.

[Progecitor]

Additional new supplements that I have tried during the past year.
As usual the short version is here:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3798.msg40769#msg40769

Catuaba bark 2 – small catuaba (Erythroxylum catuaba) [465 mg per capsule; 1-2]: It is the same brand as the other, but it uses a different source. Unfortunately even the first box lost its anti-depressive effect after the beginning, but I could certainly see the benefit on libido with that one. This one seemed less effective, but I am not sure if it is due to drug resistance or the different source. Even so anyone wishing to try catuaba should first obtain a product containing Trichilia catigua (big catuaba) as it may work better in comparison.
Actually there is a good comparison between the two at this site:
https://thesunlightexperiment.com/herb/catuaba

Catuaba bark tea – small catuaba tea (Erythroxylum catuaba): Unfortunately it did not prove as useful as I had hoped. It had a little benefit at most and there was no anti-depressive effect either. This tea has a red color by the way. Later I used the whole bag by adding it to mixed herbal teas. I guess it must have at least a little benefit, but small catuaba is clearly not as useful as big catuaba at least in my case.

MACA [500 mg per capsule containing 2.5 mg beta-ecdysterone; Rd: 1]: I took daily 1 or 2, but this wasn’t particularly more useful than the other maca products. Actually by this time I got a bit desensitized to maca, which could be one reason for the lower effectiveness. It is interesting that maca is also a source of beta-ecdysterone, which may work in conjunction with diosgenin. Strangely though the suma root I took also contained about 2.5 mg ecdysterone and that one seemed more effective. I have to note though that the other ecdysterone extract contained 300 mg ecdysterone per capsule and while it felt really nice, even that did not resolve POIS completely.

MACA [600 mg 6:1 extract per capsule; Rd: 1-3]: I took daily 2-3 caps. This was a big box (240) of the same brand I had originally had success with, however it was only minimally beneficial. I couldn’t experience any anti-depressive effect anymore. Either I developed drug resistance or the quality deteriorated. I took the whole box without seeing any major change. Even if a bit disappointing I will probably continue taking maca in the future.

Black maca complex [50 mg 100:1 black maca root extract, 50 mg 10:1 siberian ginseng extract, 50 mg L-arginine HCL, 10 mg black pepper powder, 6 mg Zinc (60%); Rd: 1]: I took 2 caps in a few days, but this supplement was a serious disappointment. Initially it has quite a nice anti-inflammatory effect (as usual around 6 hours), however later it causes a serious increase in the burning pain, which makes my symptoms worse. I am rather sure this is due to black pepper as it is hard to imagine anything else. If only the producer did not put black pepper in the combination it would have been a nice supplement, but they just had to mess it up for me.

Fenugreek extract (seed) [500 mg per capsule containing 250 mg saponins; Rd: 3]: I only took 1 per day, but I took the whole box (90 caps). I took it along with garlic caps before going to bed, but I think it only had a slight benefit.

Garlic extract with olive oil [1 capsule contains 10 mg 100:1 odorless garlic extract and olive oil; Rd: 1]: I always took 1 before bed with some fenugreek caps. Unfortunately I couldn’t see this combination making any significant difference. I think it was a little useful, but also inadequate.

Garlic complex caps [60 mg hawthorn fruit extract (1:2), 60 mg Mistletoe herb extract (1:1), 160 mg garlic extract (1:1); Rd: 3]: I took the whole box (100). I think it was a little bit useful, but it did not do anything major.

Raw garlic: For a few days I ate it regularly and sometimes I still do, however I don’t think it makes any major difference. Most of the time I took 1 clove minced and rarely 2 pieces, but I don’t think this had made any particular difference. At least this was how I felt after a few occasions, however even later I ate it more regularly often along fenugreek powder and quite a number of other stuff and from time-to-time I felt quite better and I suspect that their combination could have contributed to the overall benefit.

Asafoetida spice 2: I used it as a spice on a daily basis most often with nutmeg. It was less effective than the other product, but probably not only due to fenugreek. It was probably a quality issue. The other asafoetida product gave me crazy spontaneous erections that fenugreek hardly did, so next time I will try to buy that again.

Black cumin seed oil [100% organic, raw; Rd:1-2 teaspoon]: I took with 3 teaspoons in a day. It seemed to induce bloodshot eyes as one of the eyes was quite bloodshot about 4-6 hours after intake. Before going to bed both seemed worse. At least gut issues appeared moderately better. Thus it probably has a mixed effect on POIS. I tried it on a different day later, but once again it induced bloodshot eyes, so I won’t be using it again and I will only eat black cumin seed as raw.

Black cumin seed [raw; Rd: 1-2?g]: On the first day I ate with about 3 coffeespoons. It seemed to help with eye issues a little. From past experience it can help with gut issues, but after the first box of caps its effectiveness lessened. As I could get a good amount of black cumin seed quite cheaply I began to bake it into the gluten free bread on a regular basis. I consumed it so for more than a month, but than I realized that its compounds are probably heat sensitive, thus I began to add it to my morning smoothies instead (about 1/3 teaspoon). This way I could notice some benefit again, which dwindled shortly afterwards with continued usage. I have been taking it for about 5 months now and increased the dose to about half a teaspoon.

Black cumin oil plus capsules [In 1 capsule: 500 mg black caraway oil, 6.7 mg Vitamin E (alpha-TE), 6 mg pantothenic acid, 100 ug biotin, 100 ug folic acid, 2 ug (80 IU) vitamin D3; Rd: 6 (3x2)]: Interestingly this one also induces bloodshot eyes, whenever I use it, which is rather frustrating. Taking only 1 capsule does this, thus it is not a dosage issue. Biotin and folic acid could be suspected as a cause, but I also had the same problem with black cumin seed oil as well.

Oregano oil in corn germ oil [2 ml contains 565 mg MUFA of which 554 mg oleic acid and 1072 mg PUFA of which 1072 mg is omega– 6 fatty acid,  Rd: 1 coffeespoon (2 ml)]: It had a very mild taste compared to oregano essence, so I don’t believe there was much oregano in it, but at least it was really easy to consume. For this reason I did not expect much either. Even so from time to time I think the muscle pain appeared less intense, though not so remarkably as it happened with the oil essence. I am also a bit worried about omega-6 though this particular product did not seem to induce bloodshot eyes.

Balsam pear/bitter gourd extract [150 mg bitter gourd extract per softgel caps; Rd: 2]: I mostly took one per day and sometimes two and a whole box (100). It had some benefit on gut issues in the beginning, but it got less useful over time. I think this product was also less useful than the other I had tried before, but this may have been due to the low dose. At least this did not cause any stomach problems as the one before even when taking 2 per day.

African mango seed extract [700 mg 1:10 seed extract per caps; Rd: 1]: Mostly one per day and sometimes 2 and a whole box (60): I mostly took it with bitter gourd, but I think that one was more useful. Well, it was a little useful at least, though sometimes I felt that it may have made gut issues a little worse as well, though I am really not sure about this even after taking the whole box. I can’t compare it to the other african mango product as I had gifted that away after testing it.

Holy basil/Tulsi (Ocimum tenuiflorum) [for hair care]: I took with two teaspoons (1/2+1+1/2) in a day and had an O. This turned out to be quite good. I did not experience an anti-depressive effect, but it clearly improved eye symptoms to a moderate degree. In the evening I had an O and the ejaculate was moderately burning. Actually the sexual function was somewhat low, but the reason was probably that I also masturbated in the morning and the previous day as well and it was probably just normal sexual fatigue I think. Right after masturbation one of the eyes got bloodshot, but most interestingly it actually improved a few hours later instead getting worse as it should normally after POIS onset. Even better when waking up in the morning I felt myself unexpectedly well. Of course I was far from perfect, but cognition was relatively clear and the eyes were only slightly or normally bloodshot. The first urine was devoid of burning pain, which was a clear improvement. Gut issues were also somewhat better.
In the afternoon I had developed a neck lymph node inflammation, that persisted for a few days afterwards. I don’t necessarily think this to be a side-effect, as it happens from time-to-time. At least nothing other mentionable happened. While not perfect it certainly belongs in the best category.
Since then I have often taken it in smaller doses (1 teaspoon) as part of a powder blend tea. Unfortunately I could not experience the same level of benefit as at that first time, but I also could not find any side-effects either. Later I will try to increase the dosage. At least I can say that it has a very nice taste, so even if only for that it is really worth to consume tulsi regularly.

Bhringaraj powder (Eclipta alba) [Rd: 1/2-1 teaspoon]: I took with 1.5 teaspoon in a day. Similarly to tulsi it is used as a hair care product, though it did not prove to be as useful as the former. It wasn’t useful for the eye problem and it did not have an anti-depressive effect. At least in the morning the first urine was not particularly burning and the morning felt just alright. Gut issues were minimally better, if at all. I think it may have a little benefit, but holy basil is certainly the better choice among the two. At least my mother claimed it be really good for haircare, what I may also test later.

Fish collagen [Naticol(R) 2000 Da; Rd: 2.5-5g or 5-10g]: I took with 4 teaspoons in a day.
It was a little useful, but I don’t think it has a significant benefit at least short term. One of my friends had an acne problem related to this product, but she found bovine collagen to be quite useful for her health problems without side-effect. This also implies that different types of collagen may have somewhat different effects.

Hydrolysed collagen [In a scoop (18 g) of powder: 16.6 g hydrolysed collagen peptides, 900 mg Vitamin C, citric acid, natural flavouring (strawberry-kiwi), colourant (beetroot red), sweetener (sucralose); Rd: 1 scoop (18 g)]: I took 1 scoop (18 g) daily in the morning smoothie, until the bag got empty (500 g). Unfortunately I could not see it making any particular difference. I also could not note any adverse effects either. I believe it is a little useful, but the only actual use it had was as a flavoring for the smoothie.

Bovine collagen [Rd: 1 tablespoon]: 1 teaspoon daily. The first time I took it had a stronger anti-inflammatory effect on gut issues, but it also resulted in a weak diarrhea. By continued consumption this problem resolved however once again the anti-inflammatory effect lessened as well just like it usually goes. At least bovine collagen surely seems to be more effective than the other two forms I had tried before.

Oyster mushroom + King trumpet mushroom [powder]: I took with 3 coffeespoon in a day mostly put in hot water. Unfortunately it only had a little positive effect similar to the lion’s mane powder. I can’t figure why the standalone King trumpet mushroom was better than the former two products. I will certainly have to recheck that as well. Later I took both for a longer time and the standalone king trumpet mushroom was certainly better initially, however after a short time its effectiveness decreased just as it always happens.

Beta glucan plus maitake [100 mg Beta-1,3/1,6-D-Glucan and 150 mg Maitake powder per capsule; Rd: 3]: I only took 1 per day. It was possibly a little useful, but it did not make any significant difference even after a whole box.

7 mushroom powder [ingredients: reishi (ganoderma lucidum), chaga (inonotus obliquus), shiitake (lentinus edodes), maitake (grifola frondosa), common lion’s mane (hericium erinaceus), cordyceps (cordyceps militaris), silver ear fungus (tremella fuciformis); Rd: 5 g]: I have already tried the encapsulated version of the same kind. I took 1.5 teaspoon on a test day. In the morning I had more work than usual, but it seemed like the powder could protect the eyes a little. However in the afternoon they were a little worse, which was possibly due to eating something and even in the morning they were more like average, so it may not help as much as I had hoped. It also did not have a particular anti-depressive power, but at least in the morning I was not particularly depressed. Regarding gut issues the burning pain felt reduced, but stool quality wasn’t much better. The most notable things in the morning were the reduced pain of urination and the rhinitis also felt improved. As a possible side-effect the gallbladder pain felt a little stronger than usual, which happens when I take a lot of supplements. Though a bit disappointing it deserves a moderate-good score. I haven’t yet taken it regularly, but a few times I did and it can certainly improve the eyes, however at the same time I am rather sure that it can induce the gallbladder pain as well, which makes me question its safety for the liver.

Reishi extract (Ganoderma lucidum) [650 mg 5:1 reishi extract per capsule; Rd: 2-3]: I took 3 capsules daily in the beginning then switched to daily 1-2. I think it helped with bloodshot eyes at the start, but I could not see a benefit on the muscles that I hoped for. Nevertheless I consider ganoderma as one of the better medicinal mushrooms and so far I couldn’t perceive any adverse effects either that is a common problem with these mushrooms.

Krill oil (Euphausia superba - crustacean) [1000 mg per caps containing 400 mg phospolipids, 120 mg EPA, 80 mg DHA and 100 ug astaxanthin; Rd: 2]: Sometimes I took 2, but most of the time only 1 capsule as it was a small box (30). It had a noticeable anti-inflammatory effect, especially in the beginning, however it did not do anything significant ultimately.

Astaxanthin 3 [160 mg Haematococcus pluvialis algae extract with 8 mg (5%) astaxanthin per capsule; Rd: 1]: I took 1-2 daily and consumed a whole box (120 caps). At the beginning it certainly made me feel quite better, but as the days went on it lost its initial shine. Nevertheless I consider it one of the more useful stuff. I could not experience any side-effects either despite the higher dose, thus the tinnitus from the other product might have been an artifact or quality issue. Several people felt better after eating salmon and I think both astaxanthin and omega-3 oil must be involved in this, though I would say that individually astaxanthin is a little better.

Norwegian salmon oil [1200 mg per capsule (omega-3: 153.6 mg, omega-6: 180 mg, DHA: 24 mg, EPA: 21.6 mg, DPA: 9.6 mg, astaxanthin: 6 ug); Rd: 1-2]: I took daily 2 for about 1.5 months. I think I noticed a little benefit in the beginning, but not afterwards. Fortunately I could not experience any side-effects, unlike with the other fish oil caps that gave me bad heartaches in the past. While it does not solve POIS I will probably take this regularly in the future. It probably has a weak-moderate benefit.

Coenzyme Q10 + Vitamin E [60 mg Q10 and 35 mg vit. E per capsule; Rd: 1]: I think Q10 with vitamin E was better than the one without, similarly to the case of lycopene and astaxanthin. It was mostly useful for the gut issues only though.

N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC) [600 mg per capsule; Rd:1]: For several weeks I took daily two caps alongside daily two Q10 caps. It didn’t do anything major, but appears a little useful at least. I think it improved eye and gut issues a little, but it has no anti-depressive effect. Its efficacy is possibly similar to that of quercetin. I suspect that taking such a dose for a longer time may cause epigastrial cramping, so taking 1 should be better on a daily basis and more only when there is a need. I also believe that Q10 is more effective than NAC.

N-acetyl-carnitine (ALCAR) [500 mg per capsule; Rd:1]: I have been taking daily one or two and rarely three for several weeks. Unfortunately I couldn’t see it making any major change. Specifically the muscle pain felt mostly as usual. I think it is a little beneficial and I couldn’t experience any side-effects otherwise. By the way I had some problems with carnitine tartarate in the past, but not with this form.

TUDCA+NAC (Tauroursodeoxycholic acid) [1 capsule contains: 300 mg NAC, 267 mg TUDCA; Rd:3]: I mostly took daily one or two and sometimes three for several weeks. I was really looking forward to try this, but felt a little disappointed. I think it helps a little, but I just could not see any major benefit. I suspect that daily 3 makes the stool much looser without significantly reducing the burning pain. Most often I took it alongside ALCAR, but it did not seem to make a difference.

Glucosamine sulphate 2KCl (shellfish) [1500 mg per tablet with 888 mg glucosamine]: I took 2 boxes most often 2 per day. It did not seem to have any particular benefit on POIS and the joint pain in the legs was mostly as usual. However it managed to reduce the pain in my right elbow that is a chronic pain due to some accident.

Liposomal vitamin C+D3+Zn [In 1 softgel capsule: 300 mg vitamin C, 25 ug (1000 IU) vitamin D3, 10 mg zinc, 20 mg rosehip extract, 20 mg citrus bioflavonoid; Rd:1-2]: I have taken a full box of this already. By taking daily one I couldn’t see a significant benefit however. I think it showed a little benefit on the eyes with the other supplements from time to time. While the ingredients are certainly nice, they just don’t seem to be of sufficient strength to deal with the power of POIS. I am going to take vit. C/D as part of the stack, but only as a base and not because they would provide the major benefit. It is interesting to note that even though I was taking zinc on a daily basis I did not develop the earlier mentioned buttocks inflammation, though I thought zinc may be a contributor. At least it seems to be safe in this daily amount. I guess this product deserves a weak-moderate score on its own.

Vitamin C [1000 mg L-ascorbic acid and 50 mg rose hip extract per pill; Rd: 1]: I took part of a box (about 100) by taking daily 1, but I can’t say it was any particularly more useful than the other vitamin C products.

Vitamin C+D [1000 mg of vitamin C + 100 ug (4000 IU) vitamin D + 50 mg citrus bioflavonoid per pill; Rd: 1]: I skipped on taking a separate vitamin D while on it, but similarly to the previous product it wasn’t particularly useful. This amount of vitamin C and D is clearly healthy, but one should not expect miracles on POIS. I took daily 1 pill and a whole box (90). Based on its content it is still one of the nicer products.

Slow release Vitamin C [1000 mg vitamin C + 50 ug (2000 IU) vitamin D + 30 mg rose hip per pill; Rd: 1]: I took daily 1 pill and about half a box. I can’t say it was any particularly more useful than the other products, thus a slow release does not necessarily improve efficacy.

Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) [50 ug (2000 IU) vitamin D + 148 mg safflower oil per softgel caps; Rd: 1]: When taking 1 per day I couldn’t see much of a benefit, however this was one of the products I used when I tried 10000 IU daily and that made me feel rather well for a few days at least. I wonder if safflower oil had anything to do with this benefit or if it was purely due to vitamin D.

Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) [75 ug (3000 IU) vitamin D per softgel caps + soybean oil; Rd: 1]: Similarly to the other product on its own it wasn’t particularly useful, however this was the other product I used when I went on the 10000 IU daily protocol, that in the beginning provided a really nice benefit on POIS.

Daily 10000 IU vitamin D3: I have been taking different vitamin D supplements daily (2000-4000 IU) for more than a year without seeing much benefit. However when I upped the dose to 10000 IU it clearly made me feel much better right away even after an O. My eyes got really clear and I also felt a little less depressed. It did not particularly help with leg pain, however in the post O mornings the pain was more focused and less diffuse. As a possible side effect on the second day I felt a dull tension in the head, but this subsided in the followings days. Unfortunately its benefit also dissipated after a few days despite the daily dosage. I still took this amount daily for a month, but than I returned to taking it as usual. Later I may try a higher dosage, though I suspect this could be unsafe as vitamin D deficiency is not necessarily the problem. I would put this among the best, though drug resistance kills my initial joy again.

Vitamin K2 (menakinon-7 form) [100 ug vitamin K2 MK-7 per caps; Rd: 2]: I took one capsule each morning alongside the daily vitamin D as recommended. I don’t think in itself it had any particular effect, though I haven’t tried a greater dose. I also took the whole box (180), thus I used it for half a year. Currently I only use the general ADEK, which contains 75 ug vitamin K, thus I should probably get more soon, as ADEK contains 2000 IU and I still take the other 2000-4000 IU vitamin D capsules daily.

B12 Forte (cyanocobalamin) [250 ug per pill (10000% of daily reference dose); Rd: 1-3]: I took 1 pill per day mostly and occasionally two, but I haven’t yet tested it thoroughly. Sometimes I think I saw some weaker anti-depressive effect at its peak effect, but it was not consistent. B12 seems to be moderately useful at this dosage, however a higher dose may be unsafe, so I am a little hesitant to try that.

B complex vitamin 1 [B1: 2.03 mg (184.55%), B2: 2 mg (142.86%), B3 (nicotinamide): 15 mg (93.75%), B5: 4.6 mg (76.67%), B6: 1.65 mg (117.86%), B12 (cyanocobalamin): 1.5 ug (60%); Rd: 1]: I have been taking 2-3 pills daily for more than a week. Unfortunately I could not see any major improvement either in the beginning or later. I don’t think it had any adverse effect either at least.

B complex vitamin 2 [B1: 1.33 mg (121%), B2: 1.4 mg (100%), B3: 16 mg (100%), B5: 6.56 mg (109%), B6: 1.71 mg (122%), B7: 50 ug (100%), B9: 200 ug (100%), B12: 5 ug (200%); Rd: 1]: I took daily 1 pill. I don’t think I saw any adverse reaction, and sometimes I thought it was a little useful actually. It wasn’t significantly useful though. At least this proves that a normal amount of these vitamins is safe enough and I only get adverse reactions when oversupplementing some vitamins like biotin or folate.

Vitamin and mineral complex (Centrum A-Z) [vit A: 800 ug (100%), vit E: 15 mg (125%), vit C: 100 mg (125%), vit D: 5 ug (100%), vit K: 30 ug (40%), B1: 1.4 mg (127%), B2: 1.75 mg (125%), B3: 20 mg (125%), B5: 7.5 mg (125%), B6: 2 mg (143%), B7: 62.5 ug (125%), B9: 200 ug (100%), B12: 2.5 ug (100%), Ca: 162 mg (20%), P: 125 mg (18%), Mg: 100 mg (27%), Fe: 5 mg (36%), I: 100 ug (67%), Cu: 0.5 mg (50%), Mn: 2 mg (100%), Cr: 40 ug (100%), Mo: 50 ug (100%), Se: 30 ug (55%), Zn: 5 mg (50%); Rd: 1]: Interestingly it felt quite good when I first used it and I even had an O after seeing its initial benefit. I was actually feeling well and it ameliorated POIS. Even so this lasted like 1 or 2 days and then its benefit was significantly reduced just like with most other stuff. It goes in the best category, not that it matters much if it stops working. It seems to make the eyes a little better, which means that at least I can tolerate this amount of biotin and folic acid, though not more based on other supplements. Other POISers also found Centrum to be useful, though it has different varieties, but it may serve as a good reference for the effectiveness of multivitamins.

Iron complex [In 1 capsule: 100 mg vitamin C, 400 ug vitamin B9 (pteroylmonoglutamic acid), 18 mg iron, 12 mg zinc; Rd: 1]: I tried it a few times and it induces bloodshot eyes, otherwise I couldn’t see any improvement. I guess the negative effect is either due to iron or folic acid.

Active folic acid (Quatrefolic form – glucosamine salt of (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolate) [400 ug per cap; Rd: 1]: I tried it a few times and this one also clearly induces bloodshot eyes. I couldn’t experience any improvements besides that. Folic acid is rather disappointing so far and money spent on different forms just feels like a waste.

Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) [100 mg per capsule (7692%); Rd: 1]: I took it several times mostly in the afternoon. Unfortunately I couldn’t see it making anything major aside from making the urine majorly yellow. This did not result in a particular reduction of the burning pain of the urine, so it may not actually help much with the POIS inflammation.

Mg-threonate [20 mg Mg per caps; Rd:1]: I have been taking it for more than a month before going to sleep, but disappointingly I could not see it doing anything in particular. Recently I switched to taking it in the morning, but it changed nothing. It does not appear to be harmful in any way at least. This form is supposed to pass the blood-brain barrier, but this may not amount to much in regard of POIS.

Mg-citrate [42 mg Mg per pill; Rd: 3]: I was really surprised when I switched from Mg-threonate to Mg-citrate as my mornings certainly felt much better following that. I even tried switching back to Mg-threonate and those mornings certainly felt worse compared to when I took Mg-citrate before going to bed. I was so glad about Mg-citrate which lasted a few days till I realized that it was also losing its edge. It is really frustrating that even minerals are culled by drug resistance. Nevertheless this form of magnesium is certainly the best I have found so far. It may be interesting to note that a friend of mine complained about Mg-bisglycinate being useless, however she found Mg-citrate to be so much better. This may suggest that Mg-citrate is really the most useful form of magnesium even if we consider otherwise generally healthy people. Considering my experience with the other magnesium forms I also have to wonder if the citrate part is actually more important.

Mg-malate [100 mg magnesium per capsule; Rd: 2]: I stopped taking Mg-citrate to test this, but even after several weeks of taking it I just can’t see any major benefit. I think it is marginally more useful than Mg-threonate, but certainly less so than Mg-citrate. Mg-malate is said to be useful in the treatment of CFS and it also has less gut-related side-effects. Nevertheless by personal experience I would still opt for Mg-citrate.

Mg-bisglycinate [150 mg magnesium per capsule; Rd: 1-2]: I had been taking daily 1 for about 2 weeks and then daily 2 for two weeks as well. Unfortunately I can’t say I had noticed it making a significant change even if taken before sleeping when any benefit should be must clearly seen, thus Mg-citrate is certainly better.

Mg-orotate (magnesium orotate dihydrate) [500 mg per pill; Rd: 2-3, max 6 for a week]: I took daily 3 pills for a week. Well I couldn’t see it making such a difference as Mg-citrate. My gut issues were rather low at the time, but I think it was due to something else, though it may have contributed a little. Even so it may be only as useful as Mg-malate.

Lutein 1 [12 mg per pill; Rd: 1]: Most of the time I took it in the mornings as it is supposed to be good for the eyes. It may have a minimal benefit, but it was less beneficial than other stuff I found useful for the eyes (e.g: Rhodiola, rutin etc.).

Lutein 2 [20 mg per pill containing 20 mg lutein and 1 mg zeaxanthin; Rd: 1]: Once again I could not see any major difference, though it is probably good for the eyes nonetheless. Even if it does not help acutely it may still slow the deterioration.

Essential amino acids - EAA [Ingredients: L-Leucine 25 % (3 g), L-Lysine 16 % (1.92 g), L-Isoleucine 13 % (1.56 g), L-Valine 13 % (1.56 g), L-Threonine 10 % (1.2 g), L-Phenylalanine 9 % (1.08 g), L-Methionine 7 % (0.84 g), L-Histidine 5 % (0.6 g), L-Tryptophan 2 % (0,24 g), citric acid, mango and maracuja as flavor, sucralose as sweetener, color (red beet, beta-carotene); Rd: 1 scoop (12 g)]: I took about 1 scoop or a little less (10-12 g) every morning in a mixed smoothie until the bag was emptied (250 g). I had some hopes about this, but in the end it did not show any particular benefit neither in the beginning, nor later after several weeks of usage. It is probably a little useful, but not so much as to make any real difference. The thing I liked about this is that due to the flavor it could mask the dull or bad taste of the other stuff I put in the smoothie.

L-Valine [powder; Rd: 3g]: I think it showed some benefit on the first day with a bigger dosage, however when taking it continuously in a normal amount it did not seem to do much. I consumed a whole bag (250 g) by taking one scoop (3 g) as part of the morning smoothie. It has a slightly unpleasant taste which reminds me of MSM and for this reason I often took the two together alongside a flavored powder. One other problem I find with L-valin is that it can’t easily dissolve in water and I often have to eat the powder rather than drink it.

L-Methionine [500 mg per capsule; Rd: 1]: I took 2 caps in a day and had an O. My initial experience was rather great. I had an O around noon, but the POIS flare was minimal and remained low throughout the day. I was not feeling myself super well of course, but there was clearly some difference from the usual. I took it a few times afterwards, but it did not provide the same benefit as on the first occasion. It is also said that methionine accelerates aging, which made me hesitant in taking a higher dose or for a longer time.

L-Threonine [500 mg per capsule; Rd: 3]: I took it regularly, but I did not find it particularly useful. Given that EAA contained 1200 mg of threonine, without much benefit, I shouldn’t expect much from this product either. In the beginning I took 2-3 per day mostly alongside L-serine not like it made much of a difference, later I only took daily 1 until the box was depleted.

L-Serine [500 mg per capsule; Rd: 1-3]: I took 3 caps on the first day. My eyes remained quite bad throughout the day. Depression was also rather usual. Gut issues seemed a little better at least. Afterwards I took 1-2 or sometimes 3 in a day for several weeks. Generally I think it did nothing significant in any regard even after weeks of usage. It does not appear to have any particular side-effects, so I guess it may be slightly useful, but phosphatidylserine was much more evidently useful as a comparison.