Author Topic: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?  (Read 6796 times)

Muon

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I think POIS patients are in a state of sympathetic dominance. See the reasons why I'm questioning this below:

1) A subset of POIS symptoms is related to sympathetic activation.

Since POIS can induce symptoms which are related to the ANS and in particular with an increased sympathetic activity. If I look at a chunk of my own POIS induced symptoms like:
Decreased digestion, inhibits motility of stomach, dry mouth, vasoconstriction, vascular spasms, POIS also affect my heart and lung but not sure what exactly is going on there, tense body (increased muscle tone and spasms), Sense of being full (food), decreased awareness of thirst, State of Fligh-fight leads to insomnia. These kind of symptoms are all associated with sympathetic activity.

2) Factors that contribute to my symptom reduction are associated with increased parasympathetic activity by vagus nerve stimulation: https://selfhacked.com/blog/32-ways-to-stimulate-your-vagus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/

-A long and good night of sleep: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889159113002857
-Cold
-Breathing slow and deep (instinctively to counteract POTS symptoms)
-Eating less and using less carbs (some members had good results with intermittent fasting and avoiding carbs)
-Exercise (Pushing/pulling weights, the amount of reps and duration are very low, but I need to put some effort in it in terms of power)

The first two I mentioned helped for POIS. The carbs could have effect for POIS specifically but I'm not sure about that. These are all able to stimulate the vagus nerve, thus increasing parasympathetic activty and counteract sympathetic overactivity. This also shows to me that my body is in a state of sympathetic overactivity or parasympathetic underactivity, this is in line with point 1).

3) Lifelong premature ejaculation is related to sympathetic overactivity

Demografx mentioned, if I interpreted his comment correctly, that he did find it fishy Waldinger had so much POIS patients with premature ejaculation. This is probably no coincidence. Now I found a paper today where they conclude a link between increased sympathetic activity and life-long premature ejaculation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23102443
I got life-long premature ejaculation myself, so this is in line with point 1 and 2. And if premature ejaculation is related to POIS then there is a chance POIS is associated with ANS dysfunction.

4) Heart-rate variability measurements in cancelled POIS study. I don't know the details but this could indicate an ANS dysfunction.

A few ideas:

ANSD ---> Altered gut motility ---> altered transit times ---> changes in microbiome/poor absorption of nutritients/IBS/leaky gut

I'm Th1 polarized, is this caused by sympathetic overactivty? If so then the Beta2AR could be targeted, because:
''Th1 cells express more beta 2 adrenergic receptors than Th2 cells, indicating a greater influence of sympathetic activity on Th1 response. ''
Modulation of the immune system by the autonomic nervous system and its implication in immunological changes after training.

''the pharmacological manipulation of the sympathetic-immune interface is reviewed with focus on new therapeutic strategies using selective ?2- and ?2-adrenoreceptor agonists and antagonists and inhibitors of phosphodiesterase type IV in the treatment of experimental models of autoimmune diseases, fibromyalgia, and chronic fatigue syndrome.''
The Sympathetic Nerve?An Integrative Interface between Two Supersystems: The Brain and the Immune System

Stimulating the vagus nerve by targeting 5HT receptor types.

The SNS is capable of regulating Tregs via ?2AR or D1/D2-like receptors. I wrote something about Tregs here:
Regulatory T Cell investigation in POIS

Relative selectivities of ?-adrenoceptor antagonists:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1576008/table/tbl2/?report=objectonly

The selectivity of ?-adrenoceptor antagonists at the human ?1, ?2 and ?3 adrenoceptors

The same author wrote a similar article about ?-adrenoceptor agonists, maybe not relevant but the almost identical title could confuse people:
The selectivity of ?-adrenoceptor agonists at human ?1-, ?2- and ?3-adrenoceptors

POTS what helps?

https://www.dinet.org/info/pots/pots-what-helps-r100/
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 09:17:49 AM by Muon »

Nas

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2019, 10:10:13 PM »


How does that lead to cognitive and flu like symptoms though?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 01:45:46 PM by demografx »

demografx

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2019, 10:36:08 PM »

Demografx mentioned, if I'm interpreted his comment correctly, that he did find it fishy Waldinger had so much POIS patients with premature ejaculation.


Expertly interpreted :)
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

JohnJames

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2019, 01:00:40 PM »

The author of CFS unravelled seems to think ANS dysfunction is the root cause of CFS.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 01:47:16 PM by demografx »

Limejuice

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2019, 08:10:40 PM »

I agree somewhat agree with this Muon. My digestion is terrible due to leaky gut which could mean parasympathetic issues.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 01:48:03 PM by demografx »

Muon

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2019, 04:26:52 PM »
Guys...seriously, stop quoting that amount of text I have typed LOL, it's really annoying when you want to read through the comments and encounter these blue walls. It's unnecessary, thanks.

Nas

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2019, 04:30:58 PM »
Guys...seriously, stop quoting that amount of text I have typed LOL, it's really annoying when you want to read through the comments and encounter these blue walls. It's unnecessary, thanks.
Sorry :)

demografx

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2019, 10:39:13 PM »
Guys...seriously, stop quoting that amount of text I have typed LOL, it's really annoying when you want to read through the comments and encounter these blue walls. It's unnecessary, thanks.
Thanks for pointing out how often short posts - that can be good standalone statements - *unnecessarily* quote (drag along) large “blue walls”.

Our short points in posting are much better made - - and more readable! - - when readers aren’t forced to wade thru tons of extra verbiage.


« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 10:45:33 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Muon

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2019, 01:48:21 PM »
I do think Waldinger oversees one additional cluster, an autonomic cluster. These symptoms might be overshadowed by more severe symptoms from other clusters. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5001999/#__sec5title

Nas

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2019, 05:08:04 PM »
I do think Waldinger oversees one additional cluster, an autonomic cluster. These symptoms might be overshadowed by more severe symptoms from other clusters. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5001999/#__sec5title
But I'm confused though, is it over expression or under expression of Catecholamines? I'm more leaning to side of under since Habibou's tests and I've also noticed that when I get excited I get significantly better. I'm think of NRI's since they can both increase Norepinephrine and epinephrine, maybe that'll be relevant to POIS? I'll give it a try.

Muon

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2019, 11:28:43 AM »
It could be both in a time-dependent fashion. Habibou's data is not enough in terms of time dependency to say something about its behaviour in time. And aside from that there could be adrenoceptor over or under expression involved as well. Perhaps HPA axis responses could play a role. What about defects in acetylcholine pathways, how does this influence the vagus nerve? All speculation.

berlin1984

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2020, 11:38:02 AM »
And aside from that there could be adrenoceptor over or under expression involved as well.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17845212/
"In summary, the results indicate that atopic eczema is associated with a single point mutation in the beta2-adrenoceptor gene leading to an impaired adrenergic response in the epidermis of these patients."
atopic dermatitis/eczema -> https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3127.msg34994#msg34994

(Just googling the words you use, I don't actually understand this. If this is unrelated then let me know, I'll delete the post)

JohnJames

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2020, 03:37:17 AM »
And what causes the ANS disorder?

berlin1984

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2020, 01:52:47 PM »
How does that lead to cognitive and flu like symptoms though?

If there is Norepinephrine depletion immediately after orgasm (e.g. it is circulation around in the body like crazy?)
and
Norepinephrine increases bacteria replication and decreases immune system (source0,source1, source2)

Then usually in the next morning after orgasm I feel bad/mood unstable/painetc. The fatigue (desire to lie down, cannot stand) hits me like a train wreck usually like only 20h later. Is it because then this is no Norepinephrine anymore?
Symptoms of deciciency.

If Phenylephrine (that mimics epinephrine and norepinephrine) is supposed to help for POTS (Which is a ANS Dysfunction?) then re-plenishing Norepinephrine (or using Phenylephrine or Pseudoephedrine) would also help in POIS state (post-pack)

So basically: First we have way too much Norepinephrine (orgasm), then too little (slow to re-plenish). Related to genes? Gut bacteria?
(NOTE: You need to see POIS as an overlap of different things happening, some kind of variable refractory period is completely normal for all males!)

This is (as I understand it) kind of the theory of Dash in the thread POIS Meta-Analysis Theory 

nanna1, or is this the same as you wrote in https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg34274#msg34274 ?

Muon, you have the scientific knowledge to correct this ^

Why is there even inflammation occuring, is there a reason or pathway if there is no pathogen (bacteria/parasite/virus) is present?

To be done: Merge this with the nofapers theories about receptors..

berlin1984

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2020, 02:10:19 PM »
So basically: First we have way too much Norepinephrine (orgasm), then too little (slow to re-plenish). Related to genes? Gut bacteria?

Or maybe the "then too little" is not the case because I have COMT mutations that should make Dopamine, Epinephrin and Norepinephrine stay around longer in the body(?).
Or maybe I have around too much of it for too long, but then still too little?

(kurtosis does not have COMT mutations but drop247 does)

EDIT: And the gut bacteria could be the "repleneshing" part, e.g. gut disbyosis leads to not having enough bacteria producing neutransmitters for the body?

hurray

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2020, 09:00:33 AM »

Then usually in the next morning after orgasm I feel bad/mood unstable/painetc. The fatigue (desire to lie down, cannot stand) hits me like a train wreck usually like only 20h later. Is it because then this is no Norepinephrine anymore?


20 hours seems like quite a long time - do you have other POIS symptoms before then? My brain fog symptoms usually start in less than an hour.

You mentioned timing to me before - going from experience, if I am able to avoid POIS immediately following an O, I won't have any problems in the following days. Do you sometimes feel OK up until the 20 hour point, and then feel terrible?

Iwillbeatthis

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2020, 10:53:34 AM »

Then usually in the next morning after orgasm I feel bad/mood unstable/painetc. The fatigue (desire to lie down, cannot stand) hits me like a train wreck usually like only 20h later. Is it because then this is no Norepinephrine anymore?


20 hours seems like quite a long time - do you have other POIS symptoms before then? My brain fog symptoms usually start in less than an hour.

You mentioned timing to me before - going from experience, if I am able to avoid POIS immediately following an O, I won't have any problems in the following days. Do you sometimes feel OK up until the 20 hour point, and then feel terrible?

I also have delayed POIS sometimes it can be good that night then the next day hits me like a ton of bricks, however I do have times also where I get it around one hour after

Iwillbeatthis

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2020, 10:54:36 AM »
Berlin and Hurray checkout my post on the Nemechek protocol I really think it  can fix autonomic dysfunction forever.

berlin1984

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2020, 11:58:54 AM »
20 hours seems like quite a long time - do you have other POIS symptoms before then? My brain fog symptoms usually start in less than an hour.

Sorry, made this post to clear it up. I have other symptoms and I can manage/workaround a lot of them.


OpiesDad

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Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2020, 06:34:04 PM »
I am not sophisticated enough to comment intelligently, but I will say that far and away I have seen the most obvious POIS reduction by using high-ish doses of propranolol (60g XR x 2/3 daily).  It's been part of my every day regimen for 6 months and it's done a great deal of good for me.