Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (P.O.I.S.)

POIS Cause/Treatment Discussions => General Alternative Causes and Treatments of POIS => Topic started by: Muon on January 09, 2019, 09:06:03 PM

Title: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on January 09, 2019, 09:06:03 PM
I think POIS patients are in a state of sympathetic dominance. See the reasons why I'm questioning this below:

1) A subset of POIS symptoms is related to sympathetic activation.

Since POIS can induce symptoms which are related to the ANS and in particular with an increased sympathetic activity. If I look at a chunk of my own POIS induced symptoms like:
Decreased digestion, inhibits motility of stomach, dry mouth, vasoconstriction, vascular spasms, POIS also affect my heart and lung but not sure what exactly is going on there, tense body (increased muscle tone and spasms), Sense of being full (food), decreased awareness of thirst, State of Fligh-fight leads to insomnia. These kind of symptoms are all associated with sympathetic activity.

2) Factors that contribute to my symptom reduction are associated with increased parasympathetic activity by vagus nerve stimulation: https://selfhacked.com/blog/32-ways-to-stimulate-your-vagus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/

-A long and good night of sleep: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889159113002857
-Cold
-Breathing slow and deep (instinctively to counteract POTS symptoms)
-Eating less and using less carbs (some members had good results with intermittent fasting and avoiding carbs)
-Exercise (Pushing/pulling weights, the amount of reps and duration are very low, but I need to put some effort in it in terms of power)

The first two I mentioned helped for POIS. The carbs could have effect for POIS specifically but I'm not sure about that. These are all able to stimulate the vagus nerve, thus increasing parasympathetic activty and counteract sympathetic overactivity. This also shows to me that my body is in a state of sympathetic overactivity or parasympathetic underactivity, this is in line with point 1).

3) Lifelong premature ejaculation is related to sympathetic overactivity

Demografx mentioned, if I interpreted his comment correctly, that he did find it fishy Waldinger had so much POIS patients with premature ejaculation. This is probably no coincidence. Now I found a paper today where they conclude a link between increased sympathetic activity and life-long premature ejaculation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23102443
I got life-long premature ejaculation myself, so this is in line with point 1 and 2. And if premature ejaculation is related to POIS then there is a chance POIS is associated with ANS dysfunction.

4) Heart-rate variability measurements in cancelled POIS study. I don't know the details but this could indicate an ANS dysfunction.

A few ideas:

ANSD ---> Altered gut motility ---> altered transit times ---> changes in microbiome/poor absorption of nutritients/IBS/leaky gut

I'm Th1 polarized, is this caused by sympathetic overactivty? If so then the Beta2AR could be targeted, because:
''Th1 cells express more beta 2 adrenergic receptors than Th2 cells, indicating a greater influence of sympathetic activity on Th1 response. ''
Modulation of the immune system by the autonomic nervous system and its implication in immunological changes after training. (https://europepmc.org/abstract/med/10919062)

''the pharmacological manipulation of the sympathetic-immune interface is reviewed with focus on new therapeutic strategies using selective ?2- and ?2-adrenoreceptor agonists and antagonists and inhibitors of phosphodiesterase type IV in the treatment of experimental models of autoimmune diseases, fibromyalgia, and chronic fatigue syndrome.''
The Sympathetic Nerve?An Integrative Interface between Two Supersystems: The Brain and the Immune System (http://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/52/4/595.short)

Stimulating the vagus nerve by targeting 5HT receptor types.

The SNS is capable of regulating Tregs via ?2AR or D1/D2-like receptors. I wrote something about Tregs here:
Regulatory T Cell investigation in POIS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2891.0)

Relative selectivities of ?-adrenoceptor antagonists:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1576008/table/tbl2/?report=objectonly

The selectivity of ?-adrenoceptor antagonists at the human ?1, ?2 and ?3 adrenoceptors (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1576008/)

The same author wrote a similar article about ?-adrenoceptor agonists, maybe not relevant but the almost identical title could confuse people:
The selectivity of ?-adrenoceptor agonists at human ?1-, ?2- and ?3-adrenoceptors (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2936015/)

POTS what helps?

https://www.dinet.org/info/pots/pots-what-helps-r100/
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Nas on January 09, 2019, 10:10:13 PM


How does that lead to cognitive and flu like symptoms though?
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: demografx on January 09, 2019, 10:36:08 PM

Demografx mentioned, if I'm interpreted his comment correctly, that he did find it fishy Waldinger had so much POIS patients with premature ejaculation.


Expertly interpreted :)
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: JohnJames on January 10, 2019, 01:00:40 PM

The author of CFS unravelled seems to think ANS dysfunction is the root cause of CFS.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Limejuice on January 10, 2019, 08:10:40 PM

I agree somewhat agree with this Muon. My digestion is terrible due to leaky gut which could mean parasympathetic issues.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on January 12, 2019, 04:26:52 PM
Guys...seriously, stop quoting that amount of text I have typed LOL, it's really annoying when you want to read through the comments and encounter these blue walls. It's unnecessary, thanks.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Nas on January 12, 2019, 04:30:58 PM
Guys...seriously, stop quoting that amount of text I have typed LOL, it's really annoying when you want to read through the comments and encounter these blue walls. It's unnecessary, thanks.
Sorry :)
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: demografx on January 12, 2019, 10:39:13 PM
Guys...seriously, stop quoting that amount of text I have typed LOL, it's really annoying when you want to read through the comments and encounter these blue walls. It's unnecessary, thanks.
Thanks for pointing out how often short posts - that can be good standalone statements - *unnecessarily* quote (drag along) large “blue walls”.

Our short points in posting are much better made - - and more readable! - - when readers aren’t forced to wade thru tons of extra verbiage.


Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on January 21, 2019, 01:48:21 PM
I do think Waldinger oversees one additional cluster, an autonomic cluster. These symptoms might be overshadowed by more severe symptoms from other clusters. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5001999/#__sec5title
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Nas on January 21, 2019, 05:08:04 PM
I do think Waldinger oversees one additional cluster, an autonomic cluster. These symptoms might be overshadowed by more severe symptoms from other clusters. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5001999/#__sec5title
But I'm confused though, is it over expression or under expression of Catecholamines? I'm more leaning to side of under since Habibou's tests and I've also noticed that when I get excited I get significantly better. I'm think of NRI's since they can both increase Norepinephrine and epinephrine, maybe that'll be relevant to POIS? I'll give it a try.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on January 22, 2019, 11:28:43 AM
It could be both in a time-dependent fashion. Habibou's data is not enough in terms of time dependency to say something about its behaviour in time. And aside from that there could be adrenoceptor over or under expression involved as well. Perhaps HPA axis responses could play a role. What about defects in acetylcholine pathways, how does this influence the vagus nerve? All speculation.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: berlin1984 on September 01, 2020, 11:38:02 AM
And aside from that there could be adrenoceptor over or under expression involved as well.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17845212/
"In summary, the results indicate that atopic eczema is associated with a single point mutation in the beta2-adrenoceptor gene leading to an impaired adrenergic response in the epidermis of these patients."
atopic dermatitis/eczema -> https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3127.msg34994#msg34994

(Just googling the words you use, I don't actually understand this. If this is unrelated then let me know, I'll delete the post)
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: JohnJames on September 02, 2020, 03:37:17 AM
And what causes the ANS disorder?
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: berlin1984 on September 02, 2020, 01:52:47 PM
How does that lead to cognitive and flu like symptoms though?

If there is Norepinephrine depletion immediately after orgasm (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2937.msg27785) (e.g. it is circulation around in the body like crazy?)
and
Norepinephrine increases bacteria replication and decreases immune system (source0 (https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201604-0862CP),source1 (https://bmcmicrobiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2180-14-180), source2 (https://www.jwatch.org/na46468/2018/04/30/norepinephrine-enhances-bacterial-replication-and))

Then usually in the next morning after orgasm I feel bad/mood unstable/painetc. The fatigue (desire to lie down, cannot stand) hits me like a train wreck usually like only 20h later. Is it because then this is no Norepinephrine anymore?
Symptoms of deciciency. (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325485#deficiency)

If Phenylephrine (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=599.msg36095) (that mimics epinephrine and norepinephrine) is supposed to help for POTS (Which is a ANS Dysfunction?) then re-plenishing Norepinephrine (or using Phenylephrine or Pseudoephedrine (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2090.msg21506#msg21506)) would also help in POIS state (post-pack)

So basically: First we have way too much Norepinephrine (orgasm), then too little (slow to re-plenish). Related to genes? Gut bacteria?
(NOTE: You need to see POIS as an overlap of different things happening, some kind of variable refractory period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractory_period_(sex)) is completely normal for all males!)

This is (as I understand it) kind of the theory of Dash in the thread POIS Meta-Analysis Theory (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3160) 

nanna1, or is this the same as you wrote in https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg34274#msg34274 ?

Muon, you have the scientific knowledge to correct this ^

Why is there even inflammation occuring, is there a reason or pathway if there is no pathogen (bacteria/parasite/virus) is present?

To be done: Merge this with the nofapers theories about receptors..
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: berlin1984 on September 02, 2020, 02:10:19 PM
So basically: First we have way too much Norepinephrine (orgasm), then too little (slow to re-plenish). Related to genes? Gut bacteria?

Or maybe the "then too little" is not the case because I have COMT mutations (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg35819#msg35819) that should make Dopamine, Epinephrin and Norepinephrine stay around longer in the body(?).
Or maybe I have around too much of it for too long, but then still too little?

(kurtosis does not have COMT mutations but drop247 does)

EDIT: And the gut bacteria could be the "repleneshing" part, e.g. gut disbyosis leads to not having enough bacteria producing neutransmitters for the body?
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: hurray on September 06, 2020, 09:00:33 AM

Then usually in the next morning after orgasm I feel bad/mood unstable/painetc. The fatigue (desire to lie down, cannot stand) hits me like a train wreck usually like only 20h later. Is it because then this is no Norepinephrine anymore?


20 hours seems like quite a long time - do you have other POIS symptoms before then? My brain fog symptoms usually start in less than an hour.

You mentioned timing to me before - going from experience, if I am able to avoid POIS immediately following an O, I won't have any problems in the following days. Do you sometimes feel OK up until the 20 hour point, and then feel terrible?
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on September 06, 2020, 10:53:34 AM

Then usually in the next morning after orgasm I feel bad/mood unstable/painetc. The fatigue (desire to lie down, cannot stand) hits me like a train wreck usually like only 20h later. Is it because then this is no Norepinephrine anymore?


20 hours seems like quite a long time - do you have other POIS symptoms before then? My brain fog symptoms usually start in less than an hour.

You mentioned timing to me before - going from experience, if I am able to avoid POIS immediately following an O, I won't have any problems in the following days. Do you sometimes feel OK up until the 20 hour point, and then feel terrible?

I also have delayed POIS sometimes it can be good that night then the next day hits me like a ton of bricks, however I do have times also where I get it around one hour after
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on September 06, 2020, 10:54:36 AM
Berlin and Hurray checkout my post on the Nemechek protocol I really think it  can fix autonomic dysfunction forever.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: berlin1984 on September 06, 2020, 11:58:54 AM
20 hours seems like quite a long time - do you have other POIS symptoms before then? My brain fog symptoms usually start in less than an hour.

Sorry, made this post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2403.msg36231#msg36231) to clear it up. I have other symptoms and I can manage/workaround a lot of them.

Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: OpiesDad on September 09, 2020, 06:34:04 PM
I am not sophisticated enough to comment intelligently, but I will say that far and away I have seen the most obvious POIS reduction by using high-ish doses of propranolol (60g XR x 2/3 daily).  It's been part of my every day regimen for 6 months and it's done a great deal of good for me.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on September 21, 2020, 04:18:38 PM
Prolonged static postures is worse than moving around.
I also can't tolerate long standing, with increased sweating and so on, speaking for a overactive sympathetic system during POIS.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on October 09, 2020, 11:42:26 AM
 Anatomy and Physiology of Erection, Ejaculation, and Orgasm (https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/978-1-4939-3100-2_5)

"While these are similar between genders, in men there is additional activation in the periaqueductal gray matter."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periaqueductal_gray

"The periaqueductal gray (PAG, also known as the central gray) is a nucleus that plays a critical role in autonomic function"
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: EnriqueM075 on October 10, 2020, 04:06:23 PM


How does that lead to cognitive and flu like symptoms though?


Hi. Excuse my opinion, I am new to this disease and in the forum, in a post I commented on my story. I do not know if it will have to do but I took clonazepam for 13 years and abruptly stopped it, which caused me withdrawal and later anxiety, this weakened my immune system in such a way that I got the flu, my ears and eyes became infected at the same time And my throat gave me a kind of horrible stomach flu that lasted two days, I had vomiting, diarrhea, weakness, and another day my neck tightened in a way that I could not even move, specifically the sternocleidomastoid. I don't know if all this is related, it has to do with the nervous system
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on October 11, 2020, 08:58:30 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcitonin_gene-related_peptide

"CGRP has moderate effects on calcium homeostasis compared to its extensive actions in other areas, such as the autonomic nervous system."

Stimulation of noradrenergic sympathetic outflow by calcitonin gene-related peptide (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6604878/)

Calcitonin gene-related peptide acts within the central nervous system to inhibit gastric acid secretion (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6335261/)

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2755.msg37011#msg37011
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on October 20, 2020, 08:34:03 AM
Dysautonomia International Conference 2020 summary

https://dropitlikeitspots.com/dysautonomia-international-conference-2020-day-1-and-2/

https://dropitlikeitspots.com/dysautonomia-international-conference-2020-day-3-notes/

https://dropitlikeitspots.com/dysautonomia-international-conference-2020-day-4-notes/

Interesting topic about Sex Hormones and Dysautonomia in the first link: Dr. Blitshteyn has a personal observation that some men with POTS, NCS, or OH may have lower than normal testosterone. When she sees this in clinic, she refers those men to see an endocrinologist.

Very high: "70% of POTS patients have low blood volume. I was surprised by how high this figure is"

https://www.dinet.org/info/pots/pots-what-helps-r100/
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on October 23, 2020, 07:23:43 AM
Postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2600095/)

"Prognosis depends on aetiology. Patients may have continuous symptoms. They may be unable to cope with their employment or normal daily activities. After post-viral episodes around 50% of patients recover in 2–5 years. Prognosis is good in adolescent patients. In the majority >90% respond to a combination of physical methods as well as pharmacotherapy. In the hyperadrenergic state patients will require life long treatment. In the secondary form the causative disorder has to be treated in order for patients to become symptom?free.

Pyridostigmine, an acetylcholine esterase inhibitor, has shown promising results in the management of POTS caused by post-viral infection and autoimmune disorders.29 Low dose combination therapy is better than high dose monotherapy.
"
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on October 24, 2020, 07:04:47 PM
Very nice guide:

Postural Tachycardia Syndrome A Concise and Practical Guide to Management and Associated Conditions (https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/978-3-030-54165-1)
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on October 26, 2020, 10:31:41 AM
Wrinkled fingers (https://www.dinet.org/forums/topic/27572-wrinkled-fingers-and-autonomic-dysfunction/)

"So while driving my car today, my fingers randomly got super wrinkly. My hands were not sweaty and had not been in any water... It was quite interesting. I didn't think much of it but out of curiosity looked it up to see what causes wrinkled/pruny fingers aside from water, and much to my surprise, parasympathetic nervous system issues (i.e. autonomic nervous system issues) can be a cause for this! Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon that they've noticed outside of water? I'm curious to know!

Human bodies are weird.

Lol.
"

Anyone on poiscenter had these?
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: quikot on October 27, 2020, 01:21:36 PM
Anyone on poiscenter had these?

Yep. Does sound like me. Although in my case it's mostly left hand that's affected. The skin on my fingertips also peels off, revealing a sensitive red layer. Almost as if I burned my skin off.

Reading through your POIS case thread, I come to think that we are very similar. I share a lot of symptoms with you, even some odd ones like sunlight intolerance, pain in liver area, yellowing of skin, feeling cold etc..
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: berlin1984 on October 27, 2020, 02:54:08 PM
The skin on my fingertips also peels off, revealing a sensitive red layer. Almost as if I burned my skin off.

I have no wrinkles, but exactly your peeling problem.
BUT: Only in the weeks before my personal hay fever seasons, also not so much during hay fever season.So the peeling starts April, while real hay fever noticeably only starts in May.
I always associated it with hay fever, never with POIS.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on November 22, 2020, 05:15:26 AM
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/the-finger-wrinkling-test-can-be-used-as-a-screening-test-before-tilt-table-testing.77607/
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on December 27, 2020, 10:19:05 AM
People with orthostatic intolerance and suspecting POIS to be autoimmune could check for adrenergic receptor autoantibodies.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on January 13, 2021, 06:16:24 PM
A diagnosis changed my life. Now COVID is shining a light on my little-known illness. (https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article248174095.html)

Post-COVID POTS (https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=nl&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=covid+pots&btnG=)
Title: Dysautonomic dysregulation
Post by: Cursed on April 24, 2021, 01:36:25 PM
I wasn't sure where to post this, but I wanted to ask if anyone has these or similar symptoms.

So basically, I feel that my vascular regulation is off. E.g., I wake up with a boner, and if I lie in bed it doesn't go away very quickly, but if I sit up, bam. It's gone, immediately (vasoconstriction).

Also, if was masturbating in a standing up position, I would finish very quickly, and orgasm quality would be low, versus if I was lying in bed, or even sitting comfortably, I would last longer and orgasm quality would be higher. I knew for a long time that I had dysautonomia/orthostatic intoleracne, just never paid much attention to how it affects the regulation of sexual function.

I also have ME/CFS, so this may not apply to others, but I find it interesting in connection with theories about norepinephrine deficiency (threads about Wellbutrin, Milnacipran, etc) and wondering if others have observed anything similar?

In my opinion, it makes a lot of sense, to suggest that POIS is also closely connected to autonomic dysregulation possibly due to autoantibodies to adrenergic receptors, that's why I'm asking.

So what I'm getting at is that maybe the problem is not so much that there is a norepinephrine deficiency, but that MORE norepinephrine helps to mask the symptoms of underlying vascular dysregulation. It could also explains why some are sensitive to stress, which tends to activate sympathetic side, and since it's already always ON and trying to compensate for dysautonomia, possibly depleting even more the norepinephrine.

I think that could also explain why methylation supplements work for some, because I think they can also increase norepinephrine (not 100% sure) and other neurotransmitters, especially if someone is deficient.
Title: Re: Dysautonomic dysregulation
Post by: Journey on April 24, 2021, 02:16:58 PM
Yeah I have similar things as well and I sometimes get dizzy standing up especially after orgasm if I have sat down for a while
Title: Re: Dysautonomic dysregulation
Post by: hapl on April 26, 2021, 01:01:09 AM
I wasn't sure where to post this, but I wanted to ask if anyone has these or similar symptoms.

So basically, I feel that my vascular regulation is off. E.g., I wake up with a boner, and if I lie in bed it doesn't go away very quickly, but if I sit up, bam. It's gone, immediately (vasoconstriction).

Also, if was masturbating in a standing up position, I would finish very quickly, and orgasm quality would be low, versus if I was lying in bed, or even sitting comfortably, I would last longer and orgasm quality would be higher. I knew for a long time that I had dysautonomia/orthostatic intoleracne, just never paid much attention to how it affects the regulation of sexual function.

I also have ME/CFS, so this may not apply to others, but I find it interesting in connection with theories about norepinephrine deficiency (threads about Wellbutrin, Milnacipran, etc) and wondering if others have observed anything similar?

In my opinion, it makes a lot of sense, to suggest that POIS is also closely connected to autonomic dysregulation possibly due to autoantibodies to adrenergic receptors, that's why I'm asking.

So what I'm getting at is that maybe the problem is not so much that there is a norepinephrine deficiency, but that MORE norepinephrine helps to mask the symptoms of underlying vascular dysregulation. It could also explains why some are sensitive to stress, which tends to activate sympathetic side, and since it's already always ON and trying to compensate for dysautonomia, possibly depleting even more the norepinephrine.

I think that could also explain why methylation supplements work for some, because I think they can also increase norepinephrine (not 100% sure) and other neurotransmitters, especially if someone is deficient.

I have pretty much all those symptoms, including likely CFS. I've posted a bit here about my suspicion of norepinephrine involvement, at least for my symptoms. I definitely have a certain amount of dysautonomia - tachycardia, body temperature issues, etc. Anything that spikes my adrenaline hides my symptoms, but it triggers a huge PEM crash within 24-48 hours. Even if the adrenaline spike is purely from stress or even happiness, same crash follows - headaches, muscle problems, digestive issues, brain fog.

So far, I've been unable to find a regimen that helps either CFS or POIS significantly. I experimented with Quantum's prepack which was moderately helpful, Nannas immune stack which did something but no help with POIS, and so forth. I haven't tried Milnacipran or Wellbutrin so far, but have tried various adaptogens and supplements, methylation protocols, and so on.

Have you found anything that's particularly helpful for either CFS or POIS?
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Cursed on April 26, 2021, 11:28:35 AM

I have pretty much all those symptoms, including likely CFS. I've posted a bit here about my suspicion of norepinephrine involvement, at least for my symptoms. I definitely have a certain amount of dysautonomia - tachycardia, body temperature issues, etc. Anything that spikes my adrenaline hides my symptoms, but it triggers a huge PEM crash within 24-48 hours. Even if the adrenaline spike is purely from stress or even happiness, same crash follows - headaches, muscle problems, digestive issues, brain fog.

So far, I've been unable to find a regimen that helps either CFS or POIS significantly. I experimented with Quantum's prepack which was moderately helpful, Nannas immune stack which did something but no help with POIS, and so forth. I haven't tried Milnacipran or Wellbutrin so far, but have tried various adaptogens and supplements, methylation protocols, and so on.

Have you found anything that's particularly helpful for either CFS or POIS?

The short answer is no, but I have some success with a combination of selenium (100mcg/day), zinc sulphate (7.5mg/day), vitamin D (2000IU), B2(25mg), B6(25mg), collagen(12g/day) and taurine(2g/day). I usually take these consistently and they certainly help, but it's not enough, because I still have very significant symptoms that prevent me from working or doing anything meaningful.

I also use hyroxy B12, TMG(betaine) and folate, on and off, mostly because they sometimes make things better and sometimes make everything worse.

Ubiquinol is certainly something that I feel helps a lot with energy and muscle strength, but it also seems to have some kind of a negative effect, probably on my gut, since it's very sensitive to supplements or inactive ingredients, so I also can't use it consistently.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: OpiesDad on April 29, 2021, 02:24:30 AM
I mean guys, it definitely has some sort of connection to autonomic nervous system.  Propranolol in addition to Wellbutrin are the two medications I am most reliant on.  As an aside, COVID long haulers have many of the adrenaline spike issues that we are describing, and in fact many are being prescribed propranolol or similar beta blockers to counter those symptoms.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: berlin1984 on August 26, 2021, 02:13:46 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcitonin_gene-related_peptide

"CGRP has moderate effects on calcium homeostasis compared to its extensive actions in other areas, such as the autonomic nervous system."

Stimulation of noradrenergic sympathetic outflow by calcitonin gene-related peptide (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6604878/)

Calcitonin gene-related peptide acts within the central nervous system to inhibit gastric acid secretion (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6335261/)

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2755.msg37011#msg37011


Atogepant for the Preventive Treatment of Migraine
Atogepant is an oral, small-molecule, calcitonin gene–related peptide receptor antagonist that is being investigated for the preventive treatment of migraine.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2035908?query=featured_home

Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Bob Morane on August 28, 2021, 10:55:55 AM
ANS Dysfunction. Yes I believe so. It is most probably the physiological root cause of POIS. But then why does one develop ANS dysfunction?
Dr Nemechek has this little quiz to find out if you recognize yourself in the symptoms he presents. https://www.nemechekconsultativemedicine.com/quiz/ (https://www.nemechekconsultativemedicine.com/quiz/)
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Clues on August 28, 2021, 12:22:09 PM
ANS Dysfunction. Yes I believe so. It is most probably the physiological root cause of POIS. But then why does one develop ANS dysfunction?
Dr Nemechek has this little quiz to find out if you recognize yourself in the symptoms he presents.

Took the test. Clicked "yes" on about 90% of the symptoms! Bob, do you know if there's a correlation between ANS dysfunction and immune system dysfunction? Because my immune system seems off too.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Bob Morane on August 28, 2021, 06:16:00 PM
ANS Dysfunction. Yes I believe so. It is most probably the physiological root cause of POIS. But then why does one develop ANS dysfunction?
Dr Nemechek has this little quiz to find out if you recognize yourself in the symptoms he presents.

Took the test. Clicked "yes" on about 90% of the symptoms! Bob, do you know if there's a correlation between ANS dysfunction and immune system dysfunction? Because my immune system seems off too.
Yes Dr Nemechek mentions immune system issues associated with ANS Dysfunction.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: hapl on August 29, 2021, 12:10:26 AM
I have a hard time believing 'tests' like that. I'm vaguely interested in Nemechek, but then I see a quiz that says 80% of all chronic illness is caused by dysfunction in ANS. Is there any proof of that, or just a claim? It may be true, but I can make up numbers, too.

Then the quiz itself says any three yes means you have it. So if you have a hard time waking up in the morning, crave sugar, and are anxious - then that's it! So that's probably 90% of America.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Bob Morane on August 29, 2021, 09:45:45 AM
I have a hard time believing 'tests' like that. I'm vaguely interested in Nemechek, but then I see a quiz that says 80% of all chronic illness is caused by dysfunction in ANS. Is there any proof of that, or just a claim? It may be true, but I can make up numbers, too.

Then the quiz itself says any three yes means you have it. So if you have a hard time waking up in the morning, crave sugar, and are anxious - then that's it! So that's probably 90% of America.
Nemechek explains it further on his website. The real test when you go and see him is one made with electrodes while he asks you to breath in and out in a certain way . The results show if and to what extent you have ANS dysfunction. How he came to this 80% figure I don't know!  As a joke I often say that "Adding a percentage to a statement increases its credibility by 90%" :-)
https://www.nemechekconsultativemedicine.com/
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Prospero on August 29, 2021, 10:37:19 AM
I did a test of the ANS like the one you mention (it's rather a series of tests), with a neurologist, one day after an O (though I wasn't very sick). The result was negative, there was no anomaly of the ANS. The neurologist told me that there was a small percentage of tested POIS cases who had a positive result.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Clues on August 30, 2021, 01:37:34 AM
I have a hard time believing 'tests' like that. I'm vaguely interested in Nemechek, but then I see a quiz that says 80% of all chronic illness is caused by dysfunction in ANS. Is there any proof of that, or just a claim? It may be true, but I can make up numbers, too.

Then the quiz itself says any three yes means you have it. So if you have a hard time waking up in the morning, crave sugar, and are anxious - then that's it! So that's probably 90% of America.

I missed those claims. Yeah that sounds like a pretty wild assertion. To be fair it does say if you have any three of the symptoms you're likely to have ANS dysfunction. But still, sounds like a massive exaggeration.

However, assuming all of the listed symptoms are actual symptoms of ANS dysfunction, I do find it striking how many I clicked Yes on.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Quantum on August 30, 2021, 07:33:33 AM
As a joke I often say that "Adding a percentage to a statement increases its credibility by 90%" :-)

 ;D
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: demografx on August 30, 2021, 09:53:08 AM

As a joke I often say that "Adding a percentage to a statement increases its credibility by 90%" :-)


 ;D


;D
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Bob Morane on August 30, 2021, 01:06:39 PM
I did a test of the ANS like the one you mention (it's rather a series of tests), with a neurologist, one day after an O (though I wasn't very sick). The result was negative, there was no anomaly of the ANS. The neurologist told me that there was a small percentage of tested POIS cases who had a positive result.
Interesting! I am very surprised since I cannot imagine POIS symptoms without some ANS involvement especially associated with the X cranial nerve (vagal nerve). I am not knowledgeable enough to understand if there are different ways to measure ANS dysfunction. I do know that Dr Nemechek uses the ANX 3.0 From Ansar Medical (http://www.ans-hrv.com/ (http://www.ans-hrv.com/)). The test is done 4 times in a row: at rest, followed by deep breathing, Valsalva maneuver and standing. I do not know the value of the test itself however. It looks like decent science to me but others in our group could do a better assessment I am sure.
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on August 30, 2021, 01:15:50 PM
Testing for vagus nerve function/ANS can be done at caring medical in USA/Florida:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3207.0
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: berlin1984 on August 30, 2021, 02:42:01 PM
Polls:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2181.0
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.0
(maybe more)
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: Muon on January 16, 2022, 08:36:37 PM
This could be something here, Stellate Ganglion Block:
https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2021/12/28/stellate-ganglion-long-covid-fibromyalgia/

"The “fight or flight” response driven by the sympathetic nervous system appears to be on high alert in chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), and numerous inflammatory diseases. The corollary to that hyperactivation is an underactivation of the regulator of the sympathetic nervous system – the “rest and digest” or parasympathetic nervous system.

The potential ramifications of a chronically activated fight or flight response are many: impaired blood flows, inflammation, digestive problems, increased pain sensitivity, impaired viral defense, etc
."

Discussion thread:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=4098.0
Title: Re: Is POIS associated with an Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction?
Post by: BoneBroth on January 17, 2022, 05:00:25 AM
Stress, in other words - in combination of not compensationg the nutrient loss that stress causes. This is probably the "mother"of 90% of all illness in the modern world.