Author Topic: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory  (Read 3424 times)

Dash

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« on: December 08, 2019, 12:13:05 PM »
Necessary Pre-Warning:

Before I propose a theory that Ive been working on for the past 10 years that POIS has been altering my life, I want you to know who I am. I am not a brilliant mind like nanna1 or Quantum. I don't claim to be a scientist, a health guru or any sort of innovator. But, I do think I can help. One thing I am really good at is absorbing information, sorting it and making sense of the bigger picture. Ive read over 300 books. Ive been reading this forum for years. I've researched each hormone involved with orgasm probably 100 times, often to no avail, circling back to the drawing board.  This is how this theory came to be.

Now, lets jump in...

Theory

I have a theory, that seems to tie into all the other supported explanations of what is causing our bodies to react incorrectly. It seems to play well with the allergy theory, the methylation theory, the niacin remedy, and a lot of other factors. This theory does not apply to everyone. Just a subset who experience specific symptoms of POIS, you'll read more about in a moment. Sources are cited at the bottom of the article.

POIS has something to do with your dopamine / adrenaline / noradrenaline cycle. Specifically, it appears to be dumping too much adrenaline after orgasm.

The Process

When you orgasm, your body skyrockets in dopamine.(1) Dopamine eventually converts to adrenaline. Adrenaline eventually metabolizes out of your body, as it reaches the end of the neurotransmitter chain.



I cannot tell you if our dopamine skyrockets, then converts to noradrenaline, then adrenaline and that's why we feel like crap. Or if it all metabolizes and we eventually are depleted in all 3 (the more likely theory) and that's why we don't feel well. I haven't figured out where the hang in the process is. But stay with me as I explain why this theory seems to be substantial.

I discovered one day after taking l-tyrosine on an empty stomach, that I recovered A LOT quicker than normal. Nowhere near bulletproof, but it worked. Note that tyrosine is one of the beginning building blocks for dopamine, adrenaline and noradrenaline. So if you're depleted, this would be where you start.

Ive also cited the blood tests thread at the bottom of this article, where you can go and check out blood tests from other users who have had adrenal anomalies.

Parallel / Supported Evidence

1. Niacin - Niacin is one of the most popular remedies for POIS. Note that it is best taken BEFORE O. Niacin also does something else very magical. Niacin slows the conversion of dopamine to epinephrine.(2)

2. Ginger - Ginger tea seems to help people IMMEDIATELY AFTER O. Ginger's main component, gingerols, increase the secretion of adrenaline by the body. Thus helping the body resupply itself of missing epinephrine.(3)

3. Nanna1 Stack - Nanna1's stack supports methylation.  Nanna's stack consists of lots of good supplements, but the main ones are B-vitamins and methyl-donors. Methylation increases our neurotransmitter production. Specifically dopamine, norepinephrine and epinephrine. (4,5)

4. High Dose B-Vitamins - See previous support. B-vitamins also support methylation.

5. CBD - CBD oil seems to help treat POIS after an episode. CBD or cannabidiol increases epinephrine levels in the blood after consumption.(6)

6. Circumin - It appears turmeric and circumin are helpful immediately before or after an episode. Circumin is a COX inhibitor. (COX is usually an inflammation marker) Adrenaline increases COX levels in our body.(7)

Coinciding Theories

1. The Allergy Theory - Some people believe that the cause of POIS is a histamine issue, an allergy perhaps. It IS a histamine issue, but its because your epinephrine levels are low. Epinephrine is a histamine antagonist. Also, undermethylation, which may be happening because we depleted our neurotransmitters, causes high histamine. If you want to simulate what's happening, you can take high doses of glycine (an amino acid that mops up your methyl donors) and force yourself to experience undermethylation symptoms. I have never had allergies in my life. But when I force myself into undermethylation, I get runny nose, red eyes and other symptoms you guys report after O.

2. The Methylation Theory - For reasons explained above, this coincides with the theory that our methylation cycle isn't doing well and assisting it will help us recover.

3. The Gut Theory - Neurotransmitters are created in the gut. About 50% of dopamine is created in the gut. This could 100% be an autoimmune reaction, or our body failing to produce dopamine fast enough to recover. More exploration is needed, but there is certainly a link to adrenaline, noradrenaline, dopamine and digestion. (I reduced my POIS symptoms by 90% only eating prebiotic foods. I did it for 30 days and it was a great experiment but not viable long term. Not enough vitamins & minerals.)

Supplement / Treatment Suggestions

Below is the personal stack I use to get through my days. You can modify it as needed, add in your own favorites. These are listed in order of importance.

1. L-Tyrosine - 500 mg, twice a day, take ON AN EMPTY STOMACH. (Idk why, but it works way better. Probably competition for absorption.)
(Tyrosine is the basic essential building block for dopamine, noradrenaline and adrenaline.)

2. Niacin - 500mg - For reasons discussed above, always take niacin before an O. I also take it after as well.
(Niacin slows the conversion of dopamine to epinephrine.)

3. Glycine - 2g - (This one is controversial. You don't have to use this one.) I take glycine about 30 minutes before an O. Its dirt cheap. Now I know we just talked about glycine causes undermethylation. But when your body overproduces dopamine, norepinephrine and epinephrine during O, its actually in a state of OVERmethylation while its overproducing neurotransmitters, then it moves to undermethylation after orgasm when you're deficient. I use low dose glycine before O to slow down the production of neurotransmitters and blunt how much I lose when orgasm happens.

4. High Dose B Vitamins / Nanna1 Stack - B vitamins have been a savior for us all for awhile. I always include them in my stack. Some people take TMG or a methyl donor. I choose not to for personal reasons, but it has helped many people. I suggest checking out Nanna's stack for more info if you need it.

5. ZMA - Take ZMA right before bed & immediately after O. Zinc / Magnesium combo has always reduced my symptoms after sleep. This one Im not sure what causes it, but it works, so I included it.)

6. CBD Oil - I use CBD oil periodically if I feel particularly bad. It curbs the anxiety and increases adrenaline.

Conclusion

Hey guys, if you've made it this far, thanks for reading. Ive posted on our reddit thread, and probably will crosspost it there. Any questions, feel free to ask. Im open to all suggestions, theories or even someone smarter than me debunking this entire thread. I don't claim to be a scientist, a genius or anything else. I am just leaning on the 10 years of experience with POIS I have had thus far.

Talk soon!

Nick Dash aka NickPlusYou

Sources

1. (The body's dopamine cycle during orgasm) https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-what-happens-to-your-brain-when-you-orgasm

2. (Page 97, niacin limits the production of adrenaline) https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2156587211399579

3. (Ginger aids body's production in epinephrine) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17176640

4. (Undermethylation means low neurotransmitters like dopamine, norepinephrine & epinephrine) http://www.mensahmedical.com/common-symptoms-of-overmethylation/

5. (Undermethylation treatment similar to Nanna1's stack) https://www.jillcarnahan.com/2018/07/05/is-undermethylation-keeping-you-down-what-you-can-do/

6. (CBD enhances adrenaline levels) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014579306008155

7. (Circumin inhibits COX markers) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20065506

8. (Adrenal anomalies in blood tests) https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 04:56:05 PM by Dash »

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5918
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2019, 02:09:49 PM »
Dash, welcome to the forum.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 10:45:57 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Nas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1081
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2019, 02:48:05 PM »
I wouldn't give you an MA theory! ;) but I agree with a lot of what you said. Dopamine, and specifically the dopamine pathways in the limbic system, definitely play a major role in POIS evident by how almost all POIS sufferers experience bad psychological and cognitive symptoms. I also take levodopa which is a precursor to dopamine right after orgasm. It helps me perhaps 20% even at higher doses which made me think our dopamine is inhibited rather than depleted.
Also high adrenaline conversion can explain POISers issue with premature ejaculation and with stress in general.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 10:46:26 PM by demografx »

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5918
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2019, 03:53:53 PM »
When you orgasm, your body skyrockets in dopamine
Everyone: how proven is this in your opinion?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 10:46:51 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Nas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1081
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2019, 04:03:20 PM »
When you orgasm, your body skyrockets in dopamine
Everyone: how proven is this in your opinion?
Dopamine skyrockets in normal orgasm. So I'm not sure if he meant that dopamine naturally increases or unnaturally increases.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 10:47:14 PM by demografx »

Dash

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2019, 04:58:03 PM »
I wouldn't give you an MA theory! ;) but I agree with a lot of what you said. Dopamine, and specifically the dopamine pathways in the limbic system, definitely play a major role in POIS evident by how almost all POIS sufferers experience bad psychological and cognitive symptoms. I also take levodopa which is a precursor to dopamine right after orgasm. It helps me perhaps 20% even at higher doses which made me think our dopamine is inhibited rather than depleted.
Also high adrenaline conversion can explain POISers issue with premature ejaculation and with stress in general.

I fixed the title after realizing it made me sound like my head was really big.  ;D

When you orgasm, your body skyrockets in dopamine
Everyone: how proven is this in your opinion?
Dopamine skyrockets in normal orgasm. So I'm not sure if he meant that dopamine naturally increases or unnaturally increases.

Yes, I mean in the average human your dopamine levels increase immediately after orgasm.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 10:47:38 PM by demografx »

Nas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1081
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2019, 07:31:42 PM »
What do you think about beta blockers? Wouldn't they work?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 10:56:29 PM by demografx »

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5918
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2019, 10:51:08 PM »
Note: My post  edits above were done to only change/continue Dash’s Subject change to
“POIS Meta-Analysis Theory” for each subsequent post.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 12:26:28 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

nebraska

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2019, 09:42:56 AM »
i could say i had some thoughts on that
got the info about dopa-norep-ep cycle and noticed that during sexual arousal my hands are shaking so hard(due norepinehrine?epinephrine?)
and i got activated HPA axis
so i had a theory dopamine is hardly conversed into norepinephrine after orgasm and thats overexpressing the a1a(a1b) receptors
nanna talked about that in his last stuck

i tried a1 alpha blockers and it didnot help

Dash

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2019, 12:24:33 PM »
What do you think about beta blockers? Wouldn't they work?

Beta blockers may work pre-O if our primary issue is high adrenaline. My concern is that our neurotransmitters including adrenaline are getting cycled out too quickly. This means beta blockers may make us feel worse if we don't have enough adrenaline as it is. The limited blood tests we have available in the community forums show low neurotransmitters for all, including adrenaline. Beta blockers wouldn't prevent the dopamine from converting to adrenaline, as beta blockers only numb the receptors to adrenaline, so it would only help with symptoms of high adrenaline before it's dumped off. I'm wondering if there is a way to slow to conversion, or restore the neurotransmitters faster as well, so we could try to treat it from multiple angles.

i could say i had some thoughts on that
got the info about dopa-norep-ep cycle and noticed that during sexual arousal my hands are shaking so hard(due norepinehrine?epinephrine?)
and i got activated HPA axis
so i had a theory dopamine is hardly conversed into norepinephrine after orgasm and thats overexpressing the a1a(a1b) receptors
nanna talked about that in his last stuck

Alpha blockers have the same problem as beta blockers. They don't stop or slow production / conversion of the neurotransmitters, they only buffer the body's response to it. So perhaps it's not that were high in any of these neurotransmitters, but that they are moving through the cycle too quickly and dumping off, thus making us deficient in neurotransmitters and feeling like trash.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 12:31:20 PM by Dash »

Nas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1081
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2019, 12:29:35 PM »
Yes well I did try them and they did abseloutly nothing.

Dash

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2019, 12:33:19 PM »
Yes well I did try them and they did abseloutly nothing.

Makes sense. Also supports the Levadopa positive response.

Nas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1081
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2019, 12:57:48 PM »
Yes well I did try them and they did abseloutly nothing.

Makes sense. Also supports the Levadopa positive response.
But I also wonder why levodopa is not as effective, I take 200mg which is a pretty high does, enough to increase the d2 and d3 receptors activity to make you nauseous, also enough to slightly increase your libido, but it's exceptionally weak on other aspects like cognitive symptoms and social withdrawal.

cn7

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2019, 04:09:53 PM »
Pois is more serotonin related in my opinion

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5918
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2019, 04:38:57 PM »
cn7, welcome to the forum.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Dash

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2019, 07:09:47 PM »
Pois is more serotonin related in my opinion

Makes sense. Dopamine and serotonin are usually pretty related. Low dopamine = high serotonin & vice versa.

drop247

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 254
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2019, 07:47:37 PM »
The 5-HTP, Curcumin, Quercetin that Quantum takes, and the the Niacin lots of people take are all serotonergic. I often wonder if this had the effect of weakening the orgasm from a neurotransmitter basis since serotonin opposes dopamine.

Nas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1081
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2019, 08:13:32 PM »
Yeah but many POISers also report low serotonin symptoms like depression and OCD. I personally have pure OCD which is one of the strongest types of low serotonin issues.

Nas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1081
Re: POIS Meta-Analysis Theory
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2019, 09:14:38 PM »
Also what do you think about DBH (dopamine beta hydroxylase)? Should we try to inhibit this enzyme to slow down the conversion of dopamine into noradrenaline?