Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS

[nanna1]

Thanks for sharing that Muon. Manipulating chemotaxis may be another strategy for treatment.

[nanna1]

  I updated my test results with VZV (HHV-3), EBV (HHV-4), CMV (HHV-5) and HHV-6 antibody blood test. Also included there is a Lyme disease antibody test.  Please see the Virus and bacteria test abnormal: section.
  I got the Lyme test because people were discussing it in Lyme Disease.

[Hopeoneday]

Oooooo , this is suprise:

Virus and bacteria test abnormal:
  I tested negavitve for HIV, HSV-1 and HSV-2 (test 1 (bottom of page), test 2, letter). I tested negative for hepatitis A, B and C (test 1 (bottom of page), test 3). I tested negative for H. pylori (see Gut health and IBS: section). I tested negative for EBV (HHV-4) and Lyme, but I tested positive for VZV (HHV-3), CMV (HHV-5) and HHV-6 (test 4).

This mean that all this what me you and several odher members suspect of posible viral couses of pois for some of us.
https://hhv-6foundation.org/associated-conditions/hhv-6-and-immune-suppression

http://simmaronresearch.com/2013/12/one-theory-explain-vagus-nerve-infection-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

[Nas]

  I updated my test results with VZV (HHV-3), EBV (HHV-4), CMV (HHV-5) and HHV-6 antibody blood test. Also included there is a Lyme disease antibody test.  Please see the Virus and bacteria test abnormal: section.
  I got the Lyme test because people were discussing it in Lyme Disease.

Ok this is very interesting Nanna,
Now this doesn't mean that your theory is now proven because it doesn't explain the immediate inflammation that occurs in the crotch area and other symptoms like premature ejaculation and urethra inflammation. But overall this is a very positive development in the theory.

[devastated]

Don't know if it's related, but check this out:

Researchers Find Herpes Viruses In Brains Marked By Alzheimer's Disease

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/06/21/621908340/researchers-find-herpes-viruses-in-brains-marked-by-alzheimers-disease?t=1529613876665

[Hopeoneday]

Hah, intresting coincidence to my instict:
Like a lot of scientific discoveries, this one was an accident. "Viruses were the last thing we were looking for," Dudley says.

By the whey guys, did you watch movie-Messi(Leo) is coming home?
Goooooooooooooooooooooo Croaaaaaaaaaatiaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!

[demografx]

figure from: https://courses.lumenlearning.com/microbiology/chapter/inflammation-and-fever/

figure from: http://www.macmillanhighered.com/BrainHoney/Resource/6716/digital_first_content/trunk/test/hillis2e/asset/img_ch39/c39_fig04.html

Great graphics!
Demo

[certainlypois2]

Hah, intresting coincidence to my instict:
Like a lot of scientific discoveries, this one was an accident. "Viruses were the last thing we were looking for," Dudley says.

By the whey guys, did you watch movie-Messi(Leo) is coming home?
Goooooooooooooooooooooo Croaaaaaaaaaatiaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!

LOL, iceland better beat nigeria

[nanna1]

Thanks Demo!

[Hopeoneday]

http://www.drpodell.org/chronic_fatigue_syndrome_treatments.shtml


By the way in the botom of uper link i found this pdf:

Inhibitors of Microglial Neurotoxicity: Focus on Natural Products
http://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/16/2/1021

[Hopeoneday]

Nana, i think this will be intresting for to read.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323089/

Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) showed a focal lesion in the left thalamus, a medullar cord enlargement, and multiple lesions in the spinal cord white matter.

[nanna1]

  Thanks Hopeoneday for sharing those articles. I found that the drpodell link is useful for see what others in medicine have found successful.

  I have to make a correction to some of my previous post. I previously stated that all herpes viruses can establish latency in neurons. I am learning that HHV-(5,6) fit into a subclass of herpes viruses called Beta-herpesvirinae. CMV (HHV-5) establish latency in Epithelial mucosa and HHV-6 establishes latency in certain white blood cells (T-cells, B-cells, NK-cell, monocytes, macrophages) and epithelial cells.

  HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV are in the sub class Alpha-herpesvirinae, and these are the viruses that are latent in neurons. EBV (HHV-4) establishes latency in B-cells of the immune system Ref.

[nanna1]

  Recently I read an article (attached PDF) about a woman who had a similar MRI diagnosis as I do (my MRI angiogram Brain scan summary). She had a Saccular Aneurysm in the center of her brain (see Brain MRI of my test results), but the size of her aneurysm and the scale of her symptoms are much larger than mine. The woman had massive debilitating headaches with many other symptoms induced only by orgasm (Coital Headaches). The doctors cured her by surgically filling her aneurysm. So they demonstrated that her orgasms produced changes in the brain aneurysm that led to her symptoms. However, her symptoms only lasted for 1hour and she did not appear to have a lasting immune response to orgasm.

  From the images in the article and the patient profile given, I think it is safe to assume that there was blood-brain-barrier permeability associated with her aneurysm during these orgasms. I also think we can assume that there was vasodilation (expansion) of her aneurysm associated with these orgasms. Even if blood was penetrating into her brain, this was not enough to produce an immune response in her brain lasting longer than 1hour. It seems that you would need a systemic immune response to produce flu-like allergy-like symptoms (rhinitis, fatigue, etc...).

So I am wonder if POIS requires:
1. vasodilation of a damaged blood vessel in the brain
2. a triggerable virus that induces systemic immune response/chemotaxis

Can someone disprove this hypothesis or show where it is lacking?
For example:
1. Can vasocontriction of blood vessels in the brain stop POIS?
2. Can inhibition of virus replication stop POIS?

[Nas]

  Thanks Hopeoneday for sharing those articles. I found that the drpodell link is useful for see what others in medicine have found successful.

  I have to make a correction to some of my previous post. I previously stated that all herpes viruses can establish latency in neurons. I am learning that HHV-(5,6) fit into a subclass of herpes viruses called Beta-herpesvirinae. CMV (HHV-5) establish latency in Epithelial mucosa and HHV-6 establishes latency in certain white blood cells (T-cells, B-cells, NK-cell, monocytes, macrophages) and epithelial cells.

  HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV are in the sub class Alpha-herpesvirinae, and these are the viruses that are latent in neurons. EBV (HHV-4) establishes latency in B-cells of the immune system Ref.

Hey Nanna,
In this case aren't HSV-1, HSV-2 and VZV curable by acyclovir ?
I personally did not have any success with this medication.

[nanna1]

  Thanks Hopeoneday for sharing those articles. I found that the drpodell link is useful for see what others in medicine have found successful.

  I have to make a correction to some of my previous post. I previously stated that all herpes viruses can establish latency in neurons. I am learning that HHV-(5,6) fit into a subclass of herpes viruses called Beta-herpesvirinae. CMV (HHV-5) establish latency in Epithelial mucosa and HHV-6 establishes latency in certain white blood cells (T-cells, B-cells, NK-cell, monocytes, macrophages) and epithelial cells.

  HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV are in the sub class Alpha-herpesvirinae, and these are the viruses that are latent in neurons. EBV (HHV-4) establishes latency in B-cells of the immune system Ref.

Hey Nanna,
In this case aren't HSV-1, HSV-2 and VZV curable by acyclovir ?
I personally did not have any success with this medication.

Hey Nas,

Thanks for your question and for sharing your experience. HSV-(1,2) and VZV are not curable by acyclovir, and acyclovir cannot stop these viruses from up-regulating inflammatory genes like NF-kB and cytokines while latent.

  I think you were probably referring to the fact that acyclovir is used as a standard treatment for HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV. I agree with you that acyclovir is commonly used to treat these viruses. The role of antivirals is to prevent DNA replication of the virus. If the virus start to replicate, then the immune system will detect it and attack (POIS? maybe?).

  However, if our goal is to disprove the 2nd part of the hypothesis in my previous post, I think an important step would be to obtain virus IgG antibody test like the ones posted here (see section 4. Virus and bacteria test abnormal). It is difficult to discuss the meaning of antiviral test until the virus test results are known. Also, to disprove the 2nd part of the hypothesis we may need to be more creative than merely taking acyclovir. This antiviral is not effective against EBV, CMV, HHV-6, and there is the potential for drug resistance with long-term use.

  I have attached the paper again related to the 1st part of the hypothesis. I am trying to figure out why the woman in the paper does not have an immune response (POIS). She clearly has a broken blood-brain-barrier. Her aneurysm is huge. Her O sends her to the hospital!!! Why is she protected from getting POIS? Is it the location of the brain aneurysm? Is it her female hormones (progesterone cycle, birth control, pregnancy, etc...)? Is it that she doesn't have any infections in her brain area? It is an interest case study indeed.

[Nas]

  Thanks Hopeoneday for sharing those articles. I found that the drpodell link is useful for see what others in medicine have found successful.

  I have to make a correction to some of my previous post. I previously stated that all herpes viruses can establish latency in neurons. I am learning that HHV-(5,6) fit into a subclass of herpes viruses called Beta-herpesvirinae. CMV (HHV-5) establish latency in Epithelial mucosa and HHV-6 establishes latency in certain white blood cells (T-cells, B-cells, NK-cell, monocytes, macrophages) and epithelial cells.

  HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV are in the sub class Alpha-herpesvirinae, and these are the viruses that are latent in neurons. EBV (HHV-4) establishes latency in B-cells of the immune system Ref.

Hey Nanna,
In this case aren't HSV-1, HSV-2 and VZV curable by acyclovir ?
I personally did not have any success with this medication.

Hey Nas,

Thanks for your question and for sharing your experience. HSV-(1,2) and VZV are not curable by acyclovir, and acyclovir cannot stop these viruses from up-regulating inflammatory genes like NF-kB and cytokines while latent.

  I think you were probably referring to the fact that acyclovir is used as a standard treatment for HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV. I agree with you that acyclovir is commonly used to treat these viruses. The role of antivirals is to prevent DNA replication of the virus. If the virus start to replicate, then the immune system will detect it and attack (POIS? maybe?).

  However, if our goal is to disprove the 2nd part of the hypothesis in my previous post, I think an important step would be to obtain virus IgG antibody test like the ones posted here (see section 4. Virus and bacteria test abnormal). It is difficult to discuss the meaning of antiviral test until the virus test results are known. Also, to disprove the 2nd part of the hypothesis we may need to be more creative than taking acyclovir. This antiviral is not effective against EBV, CMV, HHV-6, and there is the potential for drug resistance with long-term use. Is there another way to see a potential effect of viral activation during POIS? Or is there a parameter/effect that must be present in viral activation, but is not present in POIS?

  I have attached the paper again related to the 1st part of the hypothesis. I am trying to figure out why this lady does not have an immune response (POIS). She clearly has a broken blood-brain-barrier. Her aneurysm is huge. Her O sends her to the hospital!!! Why is she protected from getting POIS? Is it the location of the brain aneurysm? Is it her female hormones? Is it that she doesn't have any infections in her brain area? It is an interest case study.

Hmmm, well according to the Endothelial theory ejaculation is what causes POIS and not orgasm, so it could be a case where components in female squirt are different and thus have a different effect than male semen?

[nanna1]

  Below is some ideas that I have been working on base on my medical test results (angiogram-MRI, VZV, CMV, HHV-6) and the test results of others.

Betaherpesvirinae dependent POIS

"Furthermore, angioplasty-induced injury to the vessel wall and reperfusion after balloon angioplasty produce ROS8 and cytokines. The resulting activation of NF-kB can in turn stimulate the MIEP present in latently infected cells and thereby contribute to reactivation of latent CMV...Recent studies have shown that CMV infection of human cells leads to stimulation of arachidonic acid (AA) release." -Aspirin Attenuates Cytomegalovirus Infectivity and Gene Expression Mediated by Cyclooxygenase-2 in Coronary Artery Smooth Muscle Cells (1998)

  Cytomegalovirus (CMV, HHV-5) and HHV-6 are Betaherpesvirinae that primarily latently infect endothelial cells such as blood vessels and epithelial mucosa such as intestinal epithelia (Ref). This is unlike alpha-herpes viruses (HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV) which primarily latently infect neurons. Within minutes of infecting endothelial cells CMV upregulates reactive oxygen species (H₂O₂), NF-kB, COX-2 and cytokines (RefSE). These Betaherpesvirinae maintain this inflammatory environment while latent.

"These results suggest that infection by CMV or HHV-6 causes vascular endothelial injury, with HHV-6 having a stronger effect than CMV, and combined infection having a stronger effect than either virus alone."
-Endothelial damage caused by cytomegalovirus and human herpesvirus-6 (2003)

  CMV (and HHV-6) latency within endothelial cells leads to injury of vascular and smooth muscle tissue (Ref, Ref). Stretching this injured tissue causes a stress response of free radical production (RefGR) leading to reactivation and replication of the virus (RefSE). The reponse of the immune system to this virus replication is POIS.

"Enhancement of promoter activity by endogenous catecholamines is essential for high-level transgene expression from MIECMV within the vasculature." -Beta-Adrenoceptor Blockade Markedly Attenuates Transgene Expression From Cytomegalovirus Promoters Within the Cardiovascular System

  During orgasm there is a sudden rise in norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and epinephrine (adrenaline).

  This norepinephrine (and epinephrine) causes vasodilation via the beta2-adrenergic receptor of the arteries in the brain and through out the body. This vasodilation is a ballooning stress on the arteries that is normal under certain temporary conditions such as orgasm or exercise where increased blood flow is needed in certain areas of the body. However, any arteries that have been injured by latent infection of CMV (or HHV-6) will be triggered by this stretching stress to reactivate the virus (Ref) causing an immune response. Norepinephrine levels may fall shortly after orgasm. However, because of the immune response to reactivated CMV, histamine and nitric oxide levels rise causing a secondary vasodilation (stretching) of the arteries.

Eating induced POIS-related/POIS-like symptoms:
  This is of course just a hypothesis. Betaherpesvirae like CMV can infect and establish latency in intestinal epithelia (Ref). If the intestinal epithelia are infected by CMV (and/or HHV-6) at a certain location, food passing through the stomach can stretch the intestines at the location of the infection and causing stress-reactivation of the virus. This passing food would, by stretching that part of the intestine induce an immune response leading to either local irritable bowel syndrome or systemic inflammation. This effect may lead people to think that specific foods are causing their IBS when it is just over eating. If there is a food that you really like or has MSG in it, you may be more inclined to over-eat. The MSG has nothing to do with the IBS. It is the inability to know when to stop eating that is causing the IBS/inflammation. Again, this is a hypothesis.

With all that said, I found out this about varicella zoster virus:

"Upon reactivation, varicella zoster virus (VZV) spreads transaxonally, infects cerebral arteries and causes ischemic or hemorrhagic stroke, as well as aneurysms. The mechanism(s) of VZV-induced aneurysm formation is unknown. However, matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs), which digest extracellular structural proteins in the artery wall, play a role in cerebral and aortic artery aneurysm formation and rupture." -Differential regulation of matrix metalloproteinases in varicella zoster virus-infected human brain vascular adventitial fibroblasts

In general, the alphaherpesvirusae (HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV) upregulate matrix metalloproteinases and cause collagen break down. So the line for which viruses infect the vasculature is very blurry.

  Also, there is also another thread discussing vasculature related issues at Ideas on Endothelial Dysfunction. There they discuss alternative explanations for endothelial and collagen abnormalities that may explain POIS and general inflammation. I think this diversity of ideas is good for the POIS community. But there is a need for more people to be virus tested to be able to rule out or statistically correlate viruses as a cause of POIS.

[Muon]

So what you are saying is that there is a second wave of vasodilation mediated by viral replication. Shouldn't vasoconstrictors/beta blockers work for POIS then? Prevent the first wave of vasodilation triggered by catecholamines to avoid viral replication.

[Nas]

So what you are saying is that there is a second wave of vasodilation mediated by viral replication. Shouldn't vasoconstrictors/beta blockers work for POIS then? Prevent the first wave of vasodilation triggered by catecholamines to avoid viral replication.

Any suggestions for a vasoconstrictor drug, Muon? There doesn't seem to be many of them available in pharmacies.

[FernandoPOIS]

NAS

I think coffee is a good option. It activates the central nervous system and is still a cholinesterase inhibitor. For some members of the forum green tea has worked, I believe it is due to the effect of caffeine.
For me, coffee greatly improves my mood, but I try to take it only in more extreme cases not to get too excited.