Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (P.O.I.S.)

POIS Cause/Treatment Discussions => General Alternative Causes and Treatments of POIS => Topic started by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:00:48 AM

Title: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:00:48 AM
  A while back, a fellow researcher sent me mice brains that they had infected with rabies virus which is a neurotropic virus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotropic_virus). They were researching a specific brain disease and want me to use my equipment to study it. Then sometime later Muon told me about his medical test results (post (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24021#msg24021)). My (nanna1) medical test results are also published (post (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24052#msg24052)). These test remind me how similar POIS is to neurotropic virus infections. While I do not know for sure what causes POIS, I think that human herpes virus infections should be seriously considered.

  There have been a lot of post about herpes induced POIS and just I wanted to summarize here some of the ideas. My hope is that by putting some of this information in one place, it will be easier to find and further benefit the discussion. Supplements and treatments are mentioned, but I am not endorsing any of them in this post. I do not consider these my ideas. These are summaries of published research articles and discussions on POIScenter (both public and private messages) that relate to herpes virus infections. Many POIS members have contributed the following post.
Also, thanks aswinpra06 for sharing the link Chicken Pox and Shingles Virus: Prevent Reactivation (https://www.wellnessresources.com/news/chicken-pox-and-shingles-virus-prevent-reactivation)

Table of Contents:
Brain diseases associated with herpes virus infection (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23765#msg23765)
POIS as a location-specific herpes infection (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23766#msg23766)
Stress Triggers for Herpes reactivation (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23767#msg23767)
Inflammation and disease (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23769#msg23769)
Alpha-Herpes Induced Autoimmunity (glutamate, kynurenine and NAD) (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23770#msg23770)
Testosterone, arousal shift physiology and autoimmunity (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23771#msg23771)
Methylation and herpes (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23772#msg23772)
Anti-herpes therapuedics (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23773#msg23773)
Anti-virals medications (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23774#msg23774)
Preventing Nocturnal Emissions POIS (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23775#msg23775)
Long-term herpes relief and permanent virus removal strategies (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23776#msg23776)
POIS literature review (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23777#msg23777)
Title: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 2
Post by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:02:28 AM
Diseases associated with herpes virus infection

"Evidence suggests that many cranial nerve syndromes, such as migraine headache, acute vestibular neuronitis, globus hystericus, carotidynia, acute facial paralysis (Bell's palsy), and Meniere's disease, are caused by the neurotropic herpes simplex virus (HSV)." -Herpes simplex polyganglionitis. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7402669)

"Torrey (1986) has consistently proposed a theory suggesting a viral etiology for psychosis, especially schizophrenia. Due to the relatively chronic nature of the psychiatric disorders studied, and the absence of recent clinical infection data, the major focus of work has been on the latent viruses. As Torrey (1986) observed, the viruses most likely to cause behavioral disturbances belong to the herpes family. In addition to herpes simplex virus (HSV) and cytomegalovirus, there has been recent evidence to suggest that varicella zoster can also be isolated from trigeminal nuclei, while it is latent (Mahalingam et al 1990)." -Cerebrospinal Fluid Viral Antibodies in Obsessive Compulsive
Disorder in an Indian Population (1997) (http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223(96)00174-6/abstract)

Below is a list of diseases that are associated with recurrent reactivation of HSV-1, HSV-2, HHV-3, EBV or CMV:
Below is a list of common human herpes virus types and their latency (infection) locations:

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Title: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 3
Post by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:04:25 AM
POIS as a location-specific herpes infection

"On the basis of these findings, we conclude that the spread of HSV in the CNS after (eye injection) is not diffuse but is restricted to a small number of noncontiguous foci in the brain stem and cortex which become infected in a sequential fashion. Since these regions are synaptically related, the principal route of the spread of HSV in the CNS after ocular infection appears to be along axons, presumably via axonal transport rather than by local spread." (RefA (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC251112/))

  Herpes infections are highly localized to small groups of connected cells. Michael VanElzakker, who proposed the Vagus Nerve Infection Hypothesis (VNIH), bases his HHV-6 hypothesis for chronic fatigue syndrome on the fact that the causes of neurologic diseases are location specific. Meaning that the location of the infection will be the most important factor in creating symptoms of the disease. And as the location of the infection changes, the type of disease and symptoms change.

Below is a list of common human herpes virus types and their latency (infection) locations:

  I think there could be a POIS area of the CNS that when infected causes POIS. If a person's herpes infection does not cover the "POIS area", they would not experience POIS even if they experience other illnesses. Moreover, if a person has a herpes infection that covers the POIS area and many other parts of the nervous system, they may have POIS and many other transient and chronic diseases associated with the total infection coverage of the virus. If this is true, then this "POIS area" should be located in a part of the neuroendocrine system that is primarily active during sexual activity and has a high density of glutamate receptors. So this is a conjecture based on the fact that other neurological diseases are location specific. Below are philosophical diagrams of this POIS area - herpes infection idea.

CFS-chronic fatigue syndrome, IBS-irritable bowel syndrome, POIS-post orgasmic illness syndrome
(https://i.imgur.com/z2XLiYy.gif)
Person 1 has herpes virus induced POIS, mild CFS and IBS, but he does not experience herpes induced arthritis.

(https://i.imgur.com/6vDHzI0.gif)
Person 2 has herpes virus induced POIS, CFS and arthritis, but he does not experience herpes induced IBS.

(https://i.imgur.com/rzDVAYB.gif)
Person 3 has herpes virus induced IBS, CFS and arthritis, but he does not experience herpes induced POIS.
 
  In the three above scenarios, the confounding symptoms are linked by a common cause, HHV. For Person 1, CFS and IBS may become worse following an orgasm, but this does not mean that CFS or IBS are related to POIS in general. The link between POIS, CFS and IBS in Person 1 is the result of his unique HHV infection volume, which is not shared by Person 2 or Person 3.

So far, it seems like the trigeminal nerve (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigeminal_nerve) could be the area of the brain most associated with my POIS symptoms. This nerve extends from the spinal cord to the extremities of the face (back of eye, nose, inner ear, forehead and chin). Trigeminal nerves stimulation is also associated with orgasm (and coitus fantasy) induced sneezing (RefB (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2625373/), RefC (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2077498/)).
(https://i.imgur.com/P9V99JE.png)

  Infections of herpes viruses along the spinal cord can result in pain and other symptoms throughout the body. For example, infection of the S series of nerves (bottom: S1, S2, etc..) could cause an immune response and inflammation in the bladder and genitals. While a viral infection of the CNIII nerves (Ciliary ganglion) can cause eye pain and blurred vision. The diagram below shows how basal root ganglia nerves (CN) in the central nervous system and dorsal root ganglia nerves (C, T, L and S) in the spinal cord are connect to various organs of the body.
(https://i.imgur.com/qgOiMoW.jpg)
The locations of the infections can be different for different people, which would cause different symptoms. However, for the virus theory to hold, there should be at least one common location or common organ of viral infection that all POIS sufferers share that is associated with orgasmic sensation.

  Nightingale (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2305.msg19052#msg19052), Hopeoneday (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2659.msg23385#msg23385) and others have post about the vagus nerve infection hypothesis (http://me-pedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve_infection_hypothesis) by Michael VanElzakker.
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Title: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 5
Post by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:06:29 AM
Stress Triggers for Herpes reactivation

"Typical (HSV-1) reactivating stimulators used include adrenergic agents such as epinephrine and timolol, applied either topically or by iontophoresis [140,141]. Epinephrine is most commonly used due to its high frequency of reactivation (approaching 100%) and long duration (typically 3-5 days) [66]." -Ocular herpes simplex virus: how are latency, reactivation, recurrent disease and therapy interrelated? (2011) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3403814/)

  Human herpes viruses (HSV-1, HSV-2, HHV-3) infect and are stored in cells (neurons and glia) of the nervous system, while CMV/HHV-5 and HHV-6 are latent in endothelial, smooth muscle, and macrophage cells. Latent herpes infections chronically elevate COX-2 expression in the infected cells through NF-kB (http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1000777) and control host-cell metabolism by modifying gene transcription (http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1002124). Arousal/stimulation/intercourse causes the release of neurotransmitters glutamate and norepinephrine which stimulate the release of arachidonic acid and trigger the stress response gene JNK through increase PGE2 production. According to this paper (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4681005/) (and press release (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151209143105.htm)), the herpes viruses are kept latent by methyl groups attached to the virus DNA. Methyl groups act as the off-switch for the virus. When JNK is activated, methyl groups attached to the herpes DNA are removed. This DNA demethylation results in the virus replicating and spreading. Once herpes is reactivated, it starts to replicate and migrate to other parts of the nervous system through the dendrites (connections). The recurrent reactivation of the herpes virus triggers an immune response which stops the spread of the virus while causing POIS symptoms.
(https://i.imgur.com/TlVRd8w.png)
  This model incorporates the immune response mechanism described here (https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/186/Supplement_2/S171/2191269#89857105). In this case, chemotaxis (http://www.gluegrant.org/chemotaxis.htm) means T cell movement to the site of infection, and chemokines (i.e. IL-8) are types of cytokines that tell the T cells where to go.

  In this herpes model of POIS, as the virus spreads, the immune system attacks the herpes virus and herpes infected cells. The attack by the immune system on the virus causes inflammation and allergy, and you become sick. Therefore, in this virus model, POIS is an attack by an immune system on a spreading pathogen (virus). The immune system is trying to stop the spread of the virus (Ref (https://www.qiagen.com/us/shop/genes-and-pathways/pathway-details/?pwid=314)). An HHV-3 infected person with a weak immune system would not get POIS. They would get shingles. Shingles occur when the immune system is weak and cannot fight the virus. And shingles can be triggered by stress.
(https://i.imgur.com/6BLbaSw.jpg)
Figure from "Virus Infections in the Nervous System (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3647473/figure/F1/)". A more detailed explaination can be found here (https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/186/Supplement_2/S171/2191269#89857105) in the first 3 paragraphs of the section titled "State of the Art".

  The virus itself is not the main thing that makes you feel sick, even though it is doing some damage to your body. What makes you feel sick (POIS) is the immune system releasing different molecules (histamine, cytokines, reactive oxygen species, antigens, etc...) to kill or contain the virus. For POIS, it is important to remember that even though the immune system is making you feel sick, if the immune system fails to contain the virus, HHV could spread and cause permanent damage to the body and nervous system.

"If prostaglandins enhance virus spread in vivo as well as in vitro they would be good candidates for a 'skin-trigger', since they are released in the skin following many types of damage. Injection of PGE2 into the skin of mice induces recurrent disease" -Prostaglandins Enhance Spread of Herpes Simplex Virus in Cell Cultures (1978) (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d2c9/d6868990e0af2042c30484fc3446d5a216a9.pdf)

  HSV reactivation requires both JNK up-regulation and de-methylation of the herpes DNA [J2,J3]. The authors of this paper were able to stop herpes outbreaks by inhibiting the JNK gene alone [J1,J3]. The following article positively identifies prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) as the required molecule for herpes reactivation (article (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2614784/)). Previous papers had only showed that COX-2 inhibition could block herpes reactivation. But this paper shows that adding PGE2 to neurons after inhibiting COX-2 can still cause the virus to replicate. So the arachidonic acid (AA) cascade (AA/COX-2/PGE2) is the stress-sensing trigger for JNK and herpes virus replication.

Norepinephrine:
  In scientific studies, epinephrine is the most commonly used inducer of herpes simplex reactivation due to its high potency and long-lasting effects (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3403814/)). Epinephrine is the technical name for adrenaline and norepinephrine is the technical name for noradrenaline. One of the most important roles of epinephrine and norepinephrine the regulation of muscle contractions in the body: heart muscle (heart rate), blood vessels (blood flow), muscles of the reproductive organs (orgasmic contraction, ejaculation). Epinephrine and norepinephrine blood levels rise sharply at the point of orgasm (Ref (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg21550#msg21550)).
(https://i.imgur.com/43RWkMg.png)

Glutamate:
"Glutamate treatment leads to a robust, progressive activation of the ERK and JNK/SAPK MAPK cascades." -Glutamate Induces Phosphorylation of... (http://mcb.asm.org/content/19/1/136.full). Glutamate is a potent endogenous JNK activator (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4357012/), Ref2 (http://www.jbc.org/content/274/10/6493.full.html), Ref3 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3012415/)). Activation of the NMDA receptor increases the replication of CMV (HHV-5) (Ref (http://www.jbc.org/content/276/34/31978.full)).

Beta herpesvirus dependent POIS
"Furthermore, angioplasty-induced injury to the vessel wall and reperfusion after balloon angioplasty produce ROS8 and cytokines. The resulting activation of NF-kB can in turn stimulate the MIEP present in latently infected cells and thereby contribute to reactivation of latent CMV...Recent studies have shown that CMV infection of human cells leads to stimulation of arachidonic acid (AA) release." -Aspirin Attenuates Cytomegalovirus Infectivity and Gene Expression Mediated by Cyclooxygenase-2 in Coronary Artery Smooth Muscle Cells (1998)

  Cytomegalovirus (CMV, HHV-5) and HHV-6 are Betaherpesvirinae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betaherpesvirinae) that primarily latently infect endothelial cells such as blood vessels and epithelial mucosa such as intestinal epithelia (Ref (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betaherpesvirinae)). This is unlike alpha-herpes viruses (HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV) which primarily latently infect neurons. Within minutes of infecting endothelial cells CMV upregulates reactive oxygen species (H2O2), NF-kB, COX-2 and cytokines (RefSE (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9686761)). These Betaherpesvirinae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betaherpesvirinae) maintain this inflammatory environment while latent.

"These results suggest that infection by CMV or HHV-6 causes vascular endothelial injury, with HHV-6 having a stronger effect than CMV, and combined infection having a stronger effect than either virus alone."
-Endothelial damage caused by cytomegalovirus and human herpesvirus-6 (2003)

  CMV (and HHV-6) latency within endothelial cells leads to injury of vascular and smooth muscle tissue (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12665843), Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15505098)). Stretching this injured tissue causes a stress response of free radical production (RefGR (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8546077)) leading to reactivation and replication of the virus (RefSE (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9686761)). The reponse of the immune system to this virus replication is POIS.

"Enhancement of promoter activity by endogenous catecholamines is essential for high-level transgene expression from MIECMV within the vasculature." -Beta-Adrenoceptor Blockade Markedly Attenuates Transgene Expression From Cytomegalovirus Promoters Within the Cardiovascular System

  During orgasm there is a sudden rise in norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and epinephrine (adrenaline). This norepinephrine (and epinephrine) can cause vasodilation via the beta2-adrenergic receptor of the arteries in the brain and through out the body. Vasodilation creates a ballooning stress on the arteries that is normal under certain temporary conditions such as orgasm or exercise where increased blood flow is needed in certain areas of the body. However, any arteries that have been injured by latent infection of CMV (or HHV-6) will be triggered by this stretching stress to reactivate the virus (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9686761)) causing an immune response. Norepinephrine levels may fall shortly after orgasm. However, because of the immune response to reactivated CMV, histamine and nitric oxide levels rise causing a secondary vasodilation (stretching) of the arteries.

Eating induced POIS-related/POIS-like symptoms:
  This is of course just a hypothesis. Betaherpesvirae like CMV can infect and establish latency in intestinal epithelia (Ref (http://jvi.asm.org/content/74/1/513.full)). If the intestinal epithelia are infected by CMV (and/or HHV-6) at a certain location, food passing through the stomach can stretch the intestines at the location of the infection and causing stress-reactivation of the virus. This passing food would, by stretching that part of the intestine induce an immune response leading to either local irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) or systemic inflammation. This effect may lead people to think that specific foods are causing their IBS when it is just over eating. If there is a food that you really like or has MSG in it, you may be more inclined to over-eat. The MSG has nothing to do with the IBS. It is the inability to know when to stop eating that is causing the IBS/inflammation.
  To avoid IBS, eat smaller portions of food and drink water with your food to reduce friction and pressure in the area of the intestine that is infected with the virus.

Gamma herpesviruses
  Reactivation and replication of gamma herpesviruses like Epstein-Barr virus (EBV, HHV-4) and Kaposi's Sarcoma Associated Herpesvirus (KSHV, HHV-8) are uniquely inhibited by agonist of the cannabinoid receptors (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC521080/)). Cannabinoid agonist such as THC inhibit HHV-4 reactivation but do not inhibit HSV-1, HSV-2 or CMV.

Other stress-triggers:
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Title: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 6
Post by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:08:40 AM
Herpes latency and reactivation dynamics
---under construction---
  Once herpes viruses HSV-1 and CMV infect a cell they rapidly change the redox state of that host cell. First there is an upregulation of xanthine oxidase which leads to increased production of superoxide (O2-), peroxide (H2O2) and other reactive oxygen species (ROS). This increase in ROS and more specifically peroxide chronically activates NF-kB.

  Once latent infection has been established, herpes viruses modify the cell metabolism to benefit their own replication. More specifically, herpes viruses increase the glucose and glutamine consumption of infected cells(Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21779165), Ref2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17173481)).

  Here is an example of a healthy immune response which could be viewed as a hypothesis for POIS.
(https://i.imgur.com/cqh47pj.png)
   On the Disease Path (right side), there are many steps between Tryptophan and Natural Killer cells (NK cells) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_killer_cell). If one of these steps fails, then stress hormones like norepinephrine (Trigger Path, left side) will likely make the person sick (viral reactivation). For example, sleep deprivation reduces a persons immunity and makes them vulnerable to stress-induced sickness. And stress-induced sickness is often caused by viral shedding (human study 1 (https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/182/6/1761/916184), human study 2 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0889159191900186?via%3Dihub)). On the other hand, if all of the steps between Tryptophan and NK cells succeed, then NK cells will suppress the reactivation of an infection and prevent stress-induced sickness. While NK cells mostly respond to virus infections, neutrophils mostly respond to bacteria infections. So an analogous diagram could be drawn for neutrophils suppressing bacterial growth.
  Immune cells can detect viruses through receptors on their surface. This initiates the activation of genes such as NF-kB which bind DNA and initiate transcription. The immune response is explained in the bottom left of the diagram in white letters. Click below image to see full size.

(https://i.imgur.com/h832Pj3.jpg)
Figure from QIAGEN: NF-kappaB Activation by Viruses (https://www.qiagen.com/us/shop/genes-and-pathways/pathway-details/?pwid=314)

While latent, herpes infection chronically elevates COX-2 expression in infected nerve cells through NF-kB (http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1000777).

NF-kB inhibitors:

Vitamin D3:
  Vitamin D3 is a strong inhibitor of NF-kB and COX-2 expression [Ref (http://www.jbc.org/content/289/17/11681.long), Post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2597.msg22750#msg22750)]. D3 also inhibits the production of inflammatory cytokines such as TNF-a, IL-1B, IL-6, etc... [schematic diagram (https://i.imgur.com/xXCit9H.jpg)]

Plasma levels of ascorbic acid and vitamin D were correlated with levels of antibodies to Epstein-Barr virus (EBV). We found an inverse correlation between EBV VCA IgM and vitamin C in plasma in patients with mononucleosis and CFS meaning that patients with high levels of vitamin C tended to have lower levels of antigens in the acute state of disease. In addition, a relation was found between vitamin D levels and EBV EA IgG with lower levels of EBV early antigen IgG for higher levels of vitamin D. -Effect of high dose vitamin C on Epstein-Barr viral infection (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015650/)

Thiol anti-oxidants:
   In RefSE1 (http://circres.ahajournals.org/content/79/6/1143.long) they found that anti-oxidants that decreased superoxide (O2-) and hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) also decreased the amount of CMV virus reactivation in a linear concentration fashion.
(http://circres.ahajournals.org/content/circresaha/79/6/1143/F5.large.jpg)
Figure 5: "N-acetylcysteine (NAC) treatment decreases viral titer of infected coronary smooth muscle cells (SMC). The effect of NAC on viral titer is concentration dependent. Shown are virus yields per milliliter of a 10% SMC homogenate and cell counts from parallel cultures at 96 hours after infection (mean of three experiments)." from RefSE1 (http://circres.ahajournals.org/content/79/6/1143.long)
HCMV = human cytomegalovirus

Acetylcholinesterase (AChE) inhibitors:
  Stimulation of the alpha7-acetylcholine receptor (a7-AChR)  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha-7_nicotinic_receptor)inhibits NF-kB and systemic immune response due to local tissue damage or infection (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4100123/)). This effect is commonly known in the scientific literature as the "Cholinergic Anti-inflammatory Pathway" (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1430829/), Ref (https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/immunology-and-microbiology/cholinergic-anti-inflammatory-pathway)). Acetylcholinesterase (AChE) inhibitors can increase the available acetylcholine in the vagus nerve leading to increased a7-AChR stimulation and reduced immune (cytokine) response (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4100123/), Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24067473)).
(https://dm5migu4zj3pb.cloudfront.net/manuscripts/30000/30555/medium/JCI0730555.f2.jpg)
Figure 2: from "Physiology and immunology of the cholinergic antiinflammatory pathway (https://www.jci.org/articles/view/30555)"

  Through this indirect activation of a7-AChR, AChE inhibitors also lead to reduced JNK activation (Ref (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/jnr.22237)). Common AChE inhibitors include donepezil (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18662817), galantamine, huperzine and pyridostigmine. Of these AChE inhibitors, Huperzine A does not produce tolerance with chronic use. Emirnazim has posted his experiences with acetylcholinesterase inhibitors here (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2697.msg23920#msg23920). FloppyBanana has posted his experiences with acetylcholinesterase inhibitors here (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2149.msg17189#msg17189).

Zyrtec (cetirizine) and Xyzal (Levocetirizine):
  Cetirizine and levocentirizine are strong inhibitors of NF-kB (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10594545)) and down-regulate NF-kB-dependent inflammatory proteins (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19110001)).

"Levocetirizine treatment inhibited the (human rhinovirus) HRV-induced increase in ICAM-1 mRNA and protein levels, as well as the HRV-induced expression of IL-6 and IL-8 mRNA and protein levels. Viral titer, as measured by culture in MRC-5 cells, was reduced by levocetirizine. Levocetirizine treatment also reduced the increased nuclear factor-kappa B (NF-kappaB) expression seen with HRV infection." -Levocetirizine inhibits rhinovirus-induced ICAM-1 and cytokine expression and viral replication in airway epithelial cells. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19110001?dopt=Abstract)

"Recent studies have demonstrated that Levocetirizine (LCT) has anti-inflammatory properties that are mediated by inhibitory effects on NF-κB in addition to classic antihistaminic effects." -Levocetirizine inhibits rhinovirus-induced bacterial adhesion to nasal epithelial cells through down-regulation of cell adhesion molecules (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22192965)

Useful resources:
CMV: A common virus that may accelerate immune senescence. (http://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/2015/1/A-Common-Virus/Page-01)

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Title: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 7
Post by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:09:55 AM
Inflammation and disease

  Inflammation is oxidation that is destructive to the cells of the body. The word inflammation comes from the root word flame, meaning combustion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion). Combustion is an oxidation process where an oxide (with a catalyst) is used to burn something. Without oxidation there is no inflammation. The endogenous mediators of inflammation are the reactive oxygen species (ROS) O2- (superoxide), H2O2 (peroxide), HO (hydroxide), NO (nitric oxide), etc... Outside of the mitochondria, ROS are produced primarily by oxidative enzymes.
List of oxidative enzymes associated with inflammation (ROS production):
Most of these enzymes use superoxide O2- as a cofactor. For example, TDO and IDO:
(https://i.imgur.com/UtQIwcF.jpg)
Xanthine oxidase (XO) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthine_oxidase) is a creator of superoxide (O2-) and feeds the other oxidative enzymes with ROS. There is a cascade of inflammatory events:
1. Some herpes viruses (and influenza virus (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2155924), and HIV (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20084375)) upregulate XO to increase superoxide O2- (RefSE2000 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10863553)).
2. Superoxide is then used by the other oxidative enzymes (COX-2, IDO, etc...) to oxidize substrates (arachidonic acid, tryptophan, etc...)
3. This produces (PGE2, kynurenine) and peroxide (H2O2)
4. H2O2 activates NF-kB
5. chronically elevated NF-kB primes the cell for viral activation and replication

  Inflammatory cytokines (i.e. IL-1, IL-6, INF-gamma, etc...) induce inflammation by up-regulating the activity of the above listed oxidative enzymes. Metal ions such as iron, copper, lead, cadmium and aluminum increase the activity of oxidative enzymes and ROS production. Anti-inflammatory cytokines reduce inflammation by down-regulating the above listed oxidative enzymes. Substances that inhibit or down-regulate oxidative enzymes have a net antioxidant (anti-inflammatory) effect in the body.

  Substances like progesterone, curcumin, quercetin, celecoxib and allopurinol do not directly scavenge ROS. However, they all have strong anti-oxidant effects due to their down-regulation or inhibition of activity from oxidative enzymes (COX-2, 5-LOX, IDO, XO, etc...) and up-regulation of anti-oxidant enzymes (catalase, superoxide dimutase (SOD), glutathione peroxidase).

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Title: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 8
Post by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:12:19 AM
Alpha-Herpes Induced Autoimmunity (glutamate, kynurenine and NAD)

"The most obvious way to base a therapeutic strategy for neuroprotection on the kynurenine pathway is to mimic the glutamate blocking activity of kynurenic acid, since overactivation of the various glutamate receptors may be a key characteristic of brain damage in stroke or neurodegeneration." -Kynurenine pathway inhibition as a therapeutic strategy for neuroprotection (2012) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22248239)

"quinolinic acid (QA)...is a putative N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor agonist....schizophrenia and psychosis are hypothesized to arise from increased metabolism of the NMDA receptor antagonist, kynurenic acid (KynA)...Here we present results that challenge the model of excess KynA production in affective psychosis. After rigorous control of potential confounders and multiple testing we find significant reductions in serum KynA and/or KynA/QA in acutely ill in patients with major depressive disorder (N=35), bipolar disorder (N=53) and schizoaffective disorder (N=40) versus healthy controls (N=92)." -Serum kynurenic acid is reduced in affective psychosis (2017) (https://www.nature.com/articles/tp201788)

  The diagrams below have been simplified for this discussion. More detailed diagrams of the Tryptophan pathways can be found here (http://flipper.diff.org/app/pathways/172). The research articles cited below on herpes induced autoimmunity are only relevant to alpha-herpes viruses (HSV-1, HSV-2, HHV-3). Gamma-herpes (EBV) and beta-herpes (CMV, HHV-6) viruses may not induce autoimmunity in the below stated manner.

  In the absence of disease, tryptophan is metabolized to produce serotonin, melatonin, and niacin. In the CNS, "Regarding tryptophan (TRP) utilization by each pathway, 95% of ingested TRP is broken down via the kynurenine (KYN) pathway, 1-2% is used for protein synthesis and, 1-2% for serotonin synthesis" (Ref: section: TRP Breakdown by KYN Enzymes (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5681735/)). Throughout the body, the serotonin pathway uses less than 3 percent of the total metabolized tryptophan (Ref: first paragraph (https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd870.pdf?origin=ppub)). Therefore, kynurenine is the dominant usage for metabolized tryptophan in all tissues. The primary purpose of kynurenine pathway is to produce niacin and increase NAD levels.
(https://i.imgur.com/diqrlmJ.gif)

  A stress-trigger activates the arachidonic acid cascade. Then PGE2 reactivates herpes (HHV) through the AA->COX-2->PGE2->JNK cascade (post1 (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg23434#msg23434)). PGE2 also up-regulates IDO and TDO through the AA->COX-2->PGE2->INF-gamma->(IDO and TDO) cascade (post2 (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg21510#msg21510)). The upregulation of IDO causes an initial increase in quinolinic acid which increases NMDA receptor signalling, neurotoxicity and virus replication. When the immune glia (astroglia/microglia) cells detect the spreading virus, they down-regulate KMO to increase the production of KynA (the NMDA receptor inhibitor). The inhibition of NMDAR by KynA, slows the replication of the virus.
(https://i.imgur.com/tXBx1C6.gif)

  Since KMO inhibition also blocks the production of niacin (and NAD), the body cannot use kynurenic acid (KynA) very long for NMDA receptor inhibition. Therefore, the peripheral immune cells invade the site of infection and produce anti-NMDA receptor antibodies to block NMDA receptors in the infected region (Ref (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286882816_Microglia_Activation_Herpes_Infection_and_NMDA_Receptor_Inhibition_Common_Pathways_to_Psychosis?enrichId=rgreq-0d00956a22dc014d535463a55e75cf66-XXX&enrichSource=Y292ZXJQYWdlOzI4Njg4MjgxNjtBUzozMDY1Nzk1Mjg3MTYyOTBAMTQ1MDEwNTY2MzY0NA%3D%3D&el=1_x_3&_esc=publicationCoverPdf)). The anti-NMDA receptor antibodies replace KynA as the NMDAR blocker (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3961499/)). This allows KMO levels to rise to normal and niacin production to resume. Anti-NMDA receptor antibodies are therefore a longer-term solution to the problem of needing to use kynurenine for NAD production instead of KynA production. It is important to note that blocking the NMDA receptor (by both KynA production and anti-NMDA antibodies) is the correct funtioning of a healthy immune system in response to herpes virus activation. In this case, autoimmunity is not a disease of the immune cells, but rather it is an effective immune strategy to stop virus replication. However, it could take up to a week for the peripheral immune cells to produce sufficient anti-NMDA antibody levels. During this time, NAD levels decline due to glia KMO inhibition causing a reduction in ATP (energy) levels. Creatine buffers the ATP pool to prevent a decrease in ATP due to decreased NAD levels.

  The diagrams above have been simplified for this discussion. More detailed diagrams of the Tryptophan pathways can be found here (http://flipper.diff.org/app/pathways/172).

  NAD is a negative feedback inhibitor of IDO and TDO (Figure (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3195227/figure/f2-ijtr-2-2009-001/), Ref2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14522263)).
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3195227/bin/ijtr-2-2009-001f2.jpg)
And NAD reduces the negative effects KynA production:
"Pharmacological doses of NAD precursors repeatedly provide dramatic therapeutic benefit for rheumatoid arthritis, type 1 diabetes, multiple sclerosis, colitis, other autoimmune diseases, and schizophrenia in either the clinic or animal models. Collectively these observations support the idea that autoimmune disease may in part be considered as localized pellagra manifesting symptoms particular to the inflamed target tissues. Thus pharmacological doses of NAD precursors (nicotinic acid/niacin, nicotinamide/niacinamide, or nicotinamide riboside) should be considered as potentially essential to the therapeutic success of any IDO-inducing regimen for treating autoimmune diseases." -Pharmacological targeting of IDO-mediated tolerance for treating autoimmune disease (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17430113)

  Vitamin B6 (PyridoxaL 5-Phosphate) is required to convert 5-HT into serotonin. Vitamin B6 (PLP) is also the primary dietary regulator of kynurenine metabolic pathway.
(http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/atvbaha/35/2/455/F1.large.jpg)
  B6 (PLP) also regulates the kynurenine pathway enzymes after 3-hydroxykynurenine:

"...tryptophan is metabolized to kynurenine via either indoleamine 2,3 dioxygenase (IDO1 or IDO2) or tryptophan 2,3 dioxygenase (TDO). Other than 3-hydroxykynurenine (HK), all subsequent metabolites require a vitamin B-6 (PLP)-dependent enzyme for generation. They show that ratios of HK to metabolites downstream of PLP-dependent enzymes [xanthuranic acid (XA), 3-hydroxylanthranilic acid (HAA), and kynurenic acid] correlate with PLP concentrations better than HK alone. The relation was strongest at the lowest PLP concentrations, and importantly, the ratios normalized after vitamin B-6 supplementation was instituted." -Kynurenine pathway metabolites: relevant to vitamin B-6 deficiency and beyond (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4498264/)

The expression of these enzymes in the body can be found here (right most column) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5398323/table/table1-1178646917691938/?report=objectonly).

  GABA-A receptor signalling is a potent inhibitor of autoimmunity (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3680704/), Ref2 (http://www.pnas.org/content/107/6/2580)). It is not clear whether GABA-B can display this property. Therefore, substances which selectively enhance GABA-A receptor signalling may reduce herpes mediated immune reactions with fewer side-effects. Taurine and beta-alanine stimulate the two inhibitory receptors GABA-A and Glycine receptors. Serotonin increases the sensitivity of taurine and beta-alanine in stimulating GABA-A.

Ciccio has also posted about herpes and kynurenine in the thread "Kynurenine/Tryptophan and the link with infection and fatigue (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2681.msg23746#msg23746)". Quantum, Starsky (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=174.msg2299#msg2299), G-man (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1565.msg15762#msg15762) and many others have also post about the kynurenine pathway and POIS. Kurtosis has many post about NADH. A list of niacin experiences can be found here (SUMMARY: Niacin and Xanthinol Nicotinate experiences (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=235.msg2958#msg2958)).

Acetylcholine receptor autoimmunity:
  Stimulation of the alpha7-acetylcholine receptor (a7-AChR) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha-7_nicotinic_receptor) can suppress systemic inflammation and immune response due to local tissue injury (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1430829/), Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4100123/)). Lymphocytes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymphocyte) (T cells and B cells) are also responsible for creating the autoimmune antibodies for the acetylcholine receptor (a7-AChR) (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9419435), Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11642597)). Some herpes viruses can tricks the T and B cells of the immune system into producing autoimmune antibodies for the AChR. For example, HSV-1 does this by expressing a fake AChR on its surface. The immune system then creates an antibody to bind the fake herpes-AChR in an attempt to disable the virus (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10742556), Ref (https://www.jci.org/articles/view/114282/version/1/pdf/render)). However, this antibody also binds the real human AChR and inhibits its function. This inhibition of AChR by antibodies blocks the anti-inflammatory properties of acetylcholine. In this way, diseases such as myasthenia gravis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myasthenia_gravis) can be triggered (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11642597), Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC329775/)).

Epstein-Barr virus (HHV-4) induced systemic lupus erythematosus
Lupus is known to be caused by the human herpes virus 4 (EBV, HHV-4). See the following references:
--Epstein-Barr virus infection induces lupus autoimmunity. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17121489)
--Lupus and Epstein-Barr (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3562348/)
--Epstein-Barr Virus and Systemic Lupus Erythematosus (https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jir/2012/370516/)

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Title: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 9
Post by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:16:22 AM
Testosterone, arousal shift physiology and autoimmunity

"The activities of neurosteroids are dependent on brain regions and types of neurons. In addition to the slow genomic action of the parent steroids, the non-genomic, and rapid actions of neurosteroids play a significant role in the GABAA-receptor function and shift in mood and memory function." -Neurosteroids and GABA-A receptor function (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fendo.2011.00044/full)

  Testosterone is a steroid hormone that is elevated during sleep, exercise and sexual activity. Testosterone is often associated with muscle growth and masculine physical features. However, testosterone also controls mood and bodily functions by regulating the expression of neurotransmitter receptors. More specifically, elevated testosterone upregulates the D2-dopamine receptor (RefA (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3949980/), RefB (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5772634/)) and GABA-A receptors. Testosterone also downregulates alpha2-adrenergic receptors (RefF (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11965356)). Additionally, testosterone changes the ratios of the various acetylcholine receptors throughout the reproductive system (RefE (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2754433), RefF (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15921997)) which can redirect blood flow to different parts of the body. Let us call this testostrone-induced shift in the ratios of neurotransmitter receptors the TEST-shift. This TEST-shift changes which brain regions are most active. "Regions of brain activation were correlated with testosterone plasma levels and penile tumescence (erection)." -Physiology of Penile Erection and Pathophysiology of Erectile Dysfunction (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1351051/)

The overall effect of this TEST-shift includes (but is not limited to):
  For example, D2-dopamine receptors are envolved in the sensation of sexual pleasure. However, elevating dopamine by itself is not enough to induce this effect. However, dopamine released during a TEST-shift of the D2-dopamine receptor produces this type of pleasure.
Also, acetylcholine causes erections to occur. However, elevating acetylcholine levels is not enough to induce this effect. But an acetylcholine release in the reproductive system occuring during a TEST-shift of the acetylcholine receptors does produce erections.

  Testosterone is a strong suppressor of autoimmune encephalomyelitis (brain damage) (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15990455?dopt=Abstract), Ref (http://www.jimmunol.org/content/186/9/5162.short), Ref (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1471-4159.2010.06825.x)). This suppression of autoimmune encephalomyelitis by testosterone could be related to its upregulation of GABA-A receptors (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3680704/)).
(https://i.imgur.com/ggEeZGe.png)
Androgens (T=testosterone, DHT=dihydrotestosterone) are decreased in the cerebral spinal fluid (CSF) and brain during chronic autoimmune encephalomyelitis.
from Sex-dimorphic changes in neuroactive steroid levels after chronic experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis. (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1471-4159.2010.06825.x)

  For those with low testosterone levels, probiotics may restore testosterone levels to normal (Probiotic Microbes Sustain Youthful Serum Testosterone Levels and Testicular Size in Aging Mice (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0084877)).

demografx and many others have posted their experiences with TRT.
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Title: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 10
Post by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:21:02 AM
Methylation and herpes

 In the (herpes) virus model (https://i.imgur.com/x11wKsO.jpg), a stress-trigger activates a gene called JNK through the (AA/COX-2/PGE2) pathway. JNK then activates the dormant herpes virus causing it to replicate and spread. According to this paper (and press release), the herpes viruses are kept dormant by methyl groups attached to the virus DNA. Methyl groups act as the off-switch for the virus (and DNA replication in general)(RefAWWH (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23567077)). When a gene called JNK is activated, the methyl groups that were attached to the herpes DNA are eventually removed (demethylation). This DNA demethylation results in the virus replicating and spreading.
The diagram below shows the homocysteine cycle (methylation cycle). The purpose of the homocysteine cylce is to produce SAMe the universal methyl-donor. Purple arrows inserted by me:
(1)SAMe, (2)TMG (betaine) or choline, (3)B12, (4)B6, (5)B9 (metafolin)
(https://i.imgur.com/nvtuJyf.png)
The homocycteine cycle requires ATP to function. Creatine acts as a ATP buffer to maintain the function of the homocysteine cycle. NADH may also aid in supplying energy to the homocysteine cycle.
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Title: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 11
Post by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:27:58 AM
Anti-herpes therapuedics

COX-2/PGE2 inhibitors:
Indomethacin:
  Indomethacin is a potent inhibitor of COX-2 (blocking PGE2 production). While Indomethacin is classified as a COX inhibitor and NSAID. It also protects the blood-brain-barrier (BBB) during neuroinflammation (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17704356)). I have taken indomethacin in prepack form and can validate that it inhibits 85 percent of POIS symptoms without using any other supplements. Indomethacin can only be taken as a prepack and not on a regular basis because it is not selective for COX-2. Indomethacin also inhibits COX-1 and CYP3A2. Egordon has shared his experience with indomethacin (Post1 (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=524.msg5752#msg5752), Post2 (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=508.msg5773#msg5773)). POISse has shared his experience (Post (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24648#msg24648)). Here is my (nanna1) experience:
  My neurologist once prescribed the COX-2 inhibitor, indomethacin, to me to treat orgasm induced headaches. I didn't take it at the time because indomethacin has longterm side effects on the stomach and liver. Recently, I tested indomethacin (~30 min prior to sex) without taking the POIS Cascade Stack for one-week. Indomethacin alone stopped 85% of my POIS symptoms. Their was some mild discomfort in my left ear and left side of forehead. This discomfort did not effect my productivity at work. I took a second dose of indomethacin the next day along with a Gen-1 H1-histamine receptor blocker, and all of my POIS symptoms were gone.
More recently, I did another trial of indomethacin here (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg24700#msg24700).
  In one study, indomethacin was the most potent inhibitor of cytomegalovirus (CMV, HHV-5) induced inflammation (lower RF numbers are better). Click below image to see full size.
(https://i.imgur.com/uB4XWx1.png)
A relative comparison of other COX inhibitors can be found here (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2597.msg22627#msg22627).

N-acetylcysteine:
  N-acetylcysteine (NAC) is the rate limiting prodrug for glutathione synthesis (RefDB (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3044191/)). Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is a major activator of NF-kB. NAC scavenges H2O2 and reduces NF-kB induce HHV-5 (HCMV) reactivation (RefSE1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8943952), RefXX (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26053925)).
(https://i.imgur.com/oRnKtWf.jpg)
Figure 5: N-acetylcysteine (NAC) treatment decreases viral titer of infected coronary smooth muscle cells (SMC). The effect of NAC on viral titer is concentration dependent. From RefSE1 (http://circres.ahajournals.org/content/79/6/1143.long)

selenomethionine:
  Selenomethionine is needed to produce all the glutathione recycling enzymes, glutathione peroxidase (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutathione_peroxidase#Structure). Selenium can repair peroxidative damage and increase activity of the three main anti-oxidant enzymes superoxide dismutase (SOD), catalase, and glutathione peroxidase above normal levels (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21532324)).
(https://i.imgur.com/wscBGiA.png)

Aloe emodin:
  Aloe emodin is one of the active ingredients in aloe vera leaves and is highly concentrated in aloe vera gel. Aloe vera gel is know for its therapeutic properties of the skin. But aloe emodin has been shown to inhibit herpes virus (HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV, CMV) replication and to be virucidal (RefFRMA (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4771053/), RefRSRB (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC245413/), RefKZZR (https://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajb/article/view/57782), RefKSWW (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/%28SICI%291099-1573%28199606%2910%3A4%3C348%3A%3AAID-PTR836%3E3.0.CO%3B2-2)). Aloe emodin is also inhibits the activity of NF-kB and down-regulates the expression of the MMP-2, JNK and MAPK genes used in collagen breakdown, stress sensing and viral replication (RefMPSK (https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.31.1_supplement.166.7), RefLLCS (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20607722)). Aloe emodin reduces blood vessel inflammation by downregulating MMP-2, MMP-9 and VEGF through inhibition of NF-kB (RefPSSG (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22227305)).
(https://i.imgur.com/ZNZmKkT.png)
ID50 values of aloe emodin Inactivation of enveloped viruses by anthraquinones extracted (https://aac.asm.org/content/35/12/2463). Serum profiles after oral administration of emodin at a dosage of 2 g/kg in mice (163 mg/kg in humans) showed that the peak serum concentration of emodin is 700 μM (RefHCHT (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2538697/)).

Allopurinol:
  Cytomegalovirus (CMV, HHV-5) increases ROS and NF-kB activity through increasing xanthine oxidase (XO). Allopurinol is a XO inhibitor which inhibits CMV replication (RefIN (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1333750), RefSE1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8943952)). Allopurinol also inhibits indomethacin induced oxidation and was more effective than superoxide dimutase (SOD) and catalase.
(https://i.imgur.com/2GGxzNL.png)

sodium ascorbate (intravenous vitamin C):
see Long-term herpes relief and permanent virus removal strategies (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23776#msg23776)

nicotinic acid (flush-niacin):
  Nicotinic acid increases the production and release of Prostaglandin D2 (PGD2) through COX-1. PGD2 blocks the actions of PGE2, and PGD2 inhibits herpes virus replication (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3029784), Ref2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6100083), Ref3 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0006291X87908096)). Other effects of flush-niacin are discussed here (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2525.msg21809#msg21809). NAD, a derivative of niacin, is a negative feedback inhibitor of IDO and TDO (Figure (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3195227/figure/f2-ijtr-2-2009-001/)). Observer (post (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=524.msg5755#msg5755)) and Daveman have shared their experience with niacin. A list of niacin experiences by many POIScenter users can be found here (SUMMARY: Niacin and Xanthinol Nicotinate experiences (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=235.msg2958#msg2958)).

d-limonene:
RefAAPS (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4393490/)

PDE5 inhibitors:
  While PGE2 can cause activation (replication and spreading) of the different herpes viruses.

PDE5 inhibitors:
  Of these PDE5 inhibitors, caffeine is the most attractive in that it has high bioavailability, high brain penetration (crosses blood-brain-barrier), and high potency. The side-effects of caffeine are well characterized. The anti-inflammatory effects of caffeine are well know (see Caffeine: Pharmacodynamics: Enzyme Targets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Pharmacodynamics) section).

Caffeine (and other PDE4 inhibitors) potently downregulates JNK and NF-kB activation:
Caffeine induces beneficial changes in PKA signaling and JNK and ERK activities in the striatum and cortex of Alzheimer's transgenic mice. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21907331)
Role of secondary mediators in caffeine-mediated neuroprotection in maneb and paraquat-induced Parkinson's disease phenotype in the mouse. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22201039)

cytosolic phospholipase A2 (cPLA2) inhibitors:
  When cytosolic phospholipase A2 is activated, it releases arachidonic acid and initiates the cells stress response (i.e. JNK) (post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg21497#msg21497)) Phospholipase A2 is inhibited by cellular cyclic-AMP (cAMP). So any supplement that inhibits PDE4 will also indirectly inhibit Phospholipase A2.

"The results suggest that curcumin affects arachidonic acid metabolism by blocking the phosphorylation of cPLA2, decreasing the expression of COX-2 and inhibiting the catalytic activities of 5-LOX. These activities may contribute to the antiinflammatory and anticarcinogenic actions of curcumin and its analogs." -Modulation of arachidonic acid metabolism by curcumin and related b-diketone derivatives: effects on cytosolic phospholipase A2, cyclooxygenases and 5-lipoxygenase (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15073046)

Many anti-psychotic medications such as lithium function as phospholipase A2 inhibitors (post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg21532#msg21532))

"We have also found that lithium and carbamazepine, when administered chronically at therapeutically relevant concentrations, reduced mRNA, protein, and activity levels of cPLA2-IV, and each of the three drugs, as well as lamotrigine (LTG), another FDA-approved mood stabilizer (Bowden, 2005; FDA, 2009), decreased protein and mRNA of COX-2 in rat brain." -Lamotrigine blocks NMDA receptor-initiated arachidonic acid signalling in rat brain (2012) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3204186/)

Steroid anti-inflammatory drugs also function as phospholipase A2 inhibitors (https://sites.google.com/site/pharmacologyinonesemester/11-local-hormones/11-2-eicosanoids/11-2-5-drugs-that-inhibit-phospholipase-a2)

Useful resources:
1. Divergent Effects of Human Cytomegalovirus and Herpes Simplex Virus-1 on Cellular Metabolism (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21779165)
2. Dynamics of the Cellular Metabolome during Human Cytomegalovirus Infection (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17173481)
3. drug pharmacokinetics (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg26349#msg26349)

Animal to human dose conversion chart (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4804402/))
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4804402/bin/JBCP-7-27-g002.jpg)

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Title: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 12
Post by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:29:05 AM
Anti-virals medications

"It is interesting to us that acyclovir caused a replicable improvement of tics and behavioral symptoms in the absence of an overt herpes exacerbation (or outbreak). Since herpes simplex is a neurotropic virus, it is possible that it played a role in the induction of this patient's neuropsychiatric symptoms. While a placebo effect cannot be ruled our in this single case, the potential role of a viral infection in initiating and/or exacerbating symptoms of Tourette's Syndrome must be strongly considered and warrants further investigation."
-VIRAL INFECTION AND TIC EXACERBATION (http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567(09)62794-5/pdf)

  Anti-herpetic antiviral medications (such as acyclovir (Zovirax), famciclovir (Famvir) (https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2011/020363s037lbl.pdf), penciclovir (Denavir) and valacyclovir (Valtrex) (https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2008/020487s014lbl.pdf)) have been used to treat a number of neurological diseases (epilepsy (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9040733), migraine headaches (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5737915/), irritable bowel syndrome and fibromyalgia (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5328426/))
Antiviral medications like acyclovir and penciclovir are only active against herpes simplex virus-1 (HSV-1), herpes simplex virus-2 (HSV-2) and Varicella-zoster virus (VZV, HHV-3). These medications are not effective against Epstein-Barr virus (EBV, HHV-4), Cytomegalovirus (CMV, HHV-5) or herpesvirus type 6 (HBLV, HHV-6). And they are only active once a virus has reactivated or there is an outbreak. Antivirals have no effect on the inflammation caused by a latent herpes virus and cannot prevent the latent virus from reactivating. However, these medications are effective at inhibiting viral DNA replication, thereby preventing the spread of the virus.

See http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2659.msg23395#msg23395 and Antiviral therapy of varicella-zoster virus infections (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK47401/):

POISrival and Nas have offered their experiences with antivirals at "(UPDATED) Antivirals (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2659.0)".
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Title: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 13
Post by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:31:21 AM
Preventing Nocturnal Emissions POIS
--underconstruction--
  Since sleep typically last for 8 hours, one strategy could be to take supplements that have a long half-life. Here is a list of beneficial supplements with long half-lives:
-vitamin D3 (2000 IU, sublingual), half-life=360hours
-melatonin (20 mg, sublingual), > 4 hrs
-vitamin B12 (>50mcg, sublingual), 144hrs
-conjugated linoleic acid (CLA, 2 g), >18hrs
-omega-3 (1 g), 48hrs

  During sleep testosterone levels rise and shift the body into an aroused state (through enhanced D2-dopamine receptor signalling (http://through enhanced D2-dopamine signalling)). Strategies that suppress glutamate-NMDA signaling and/or enhance GABA signaling can negate the arousal effect of testosterone.
NMDA inhibitors:
-magnesium threonate, magnesium gluconate

GABA agonist:
-beta-alanine

This post is intended to facilitate discussion, not to endorse treatment.
Title: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 14
Post by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:35:06 AM
Long-term herpes relief and permanent virus removal strategies

"High dose IV vitamin C is in unexpectedly wide use by Complementary and Alternative Medicine practitioners. Other than the known complications of IV vitamin C in those with renal impairment or glucose 6 phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency, high dose intravenous vitamin C appears to be remarkably safe."
-Vitamin C: Intravenous Use by Complementary and Alternative Medicine Practitioners and Adverse Effects (2010) (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0011414)

In vivo human trials treating herpes complications:
The effects of intravenous vitamin C (ascrobate) against herpes have been shown in promising human trials.

  Case 1: "Five days after taking the pregabalin and vitamin C IV, she reported a complete resolution of the pain and stopped taking the medication. At 3 months follow-up, she continued to have no pain without any complications." -Administration of Vitamin C in a Patient with Herpes Zoster - A case report (2011) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3111558/)

  Case 2: 7.5g vitamin C, 2-4 times/week "...the study presented here demonstrates that concomitant intravenous administration of ascorbic acid has positive effects on herpes zoster-associated pain and zoster-associated dermatologic findings. Furthermore, common clinical symptoms in patients with shingles, such as general fatigue and impaired concentration, were significantly improved and the risk of developing postherpetic neuralgia was reduced."
-Intravenous Vitamin C in the treatment of shingles: Results of a multicenter prospective cohort study (2012) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3560828/) (NIH ClinicalTrials.gov Identifier: NCT00921934)

  Case 3: Vitamin C IV infusions cure post-herpetic neuralgia in two patients, shown by reduced VAS pain score.
(https://i.imgur.com/EFtos5M.png)
  "Sudden and total remission of the neuropathic pain (measured on the basis of the visual analogous-scale, VAS) could be observed. Remission of the cutaneous lesions was noted within 10 days." -Intravenous administration of vitamin C in the treatment of herpetic neuralgia: two case reports (2010) (https://www.medscimonit.com/abstract/index/idArt/878529/act/3) (click figure to show full resolution)

  Case 4: Ascorbate IV reduces Epstein-Barr virus early antigen IgG antibody levels as well as improving symptoms of virus related disease (measured by percent of decrease in EBV EA IgG from the 0 baseline). After 10 IV injections all patients showed at least a 17% reduction in viral IgG. With increasing number of vitamin C IV infusions, some patients showed IgG reductions approaching 100%.
(https://i.imgur.com/6Jvg7uP.png)
  "We found an inverse correlation between EBV VCA IgM and vitamin C in plasma in patients with mononucleosis and chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) meaning that patients with high levels of vitamin C tended to have lower levels of antigens in the acute state of disease...In addition, a relation was found between vitamin D levels and EBV EA IgG with lower levels of EBV early antigen IgG for higher levels of vitamin D....The clinical study of ascorbic acid and EBV infection showed the reduction in EBV EA IgG and EBV VCA IgM antibody levels over time during IVC therapy" -Effect of high dose vitamin C on Epstein-Barr viral infection (2014) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015650/) (click figure to show full resolution)

Case: 5 "We treated this patient with IV 2.5 g ascorbate... on days 1, 3, and 5. His intermittent, spontaneous, shooting pain completely resolved within 1 wk, and his baseline pain decreased to a level of 3 (his plasma vitamin C level reached 14.9 mg/L). We advised him to increase his intake of fruits and vegetables. On follow-up examination 3 mo later he has had no recurrence of the extreme intermittent pain, and his plasma vitamin C level was 11.6 mg/L."
-Treatment of Postherpetic Neuralgia with Intravenous Administration of Vitamin C (2006) (https://insights.ovid.com/pubmed?pmid=17122283)

Case 6: "In the patient who received the intravenous administration of vitamin C and cantharidin patches beside standard analgesis and virostatic treatment, a swift regression and clinical improvement of the herpes zoster-induced efflorescences was obtained, rapid pain reduction was illustrated by the NAS-scores and possibly of prevention of a later ongoing PHN were presented. The rapid therapy benefits were impressive." -Cantharidin patches and intravenous administration of vitamin C in the concomitant treatment of herpes zoster: A case report (2011) (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51045223_Cantharidin_patches_and_intravenous_administration_of_vitamin_C_in_the_concomitant_treatment_of_herpes_zoster_A_case_report)

Case 7: "Clinical and subjective response to three consecutive daily 50 g IV vitamin C was excellent. Symptoms remitted in five days following beginning of therapy... The therapy was well tolerated and no adverse side effects were noted. The quickness of the patient response to high-dose IV vitamin C was dramatic... Our case provides evidence that high dose (50g) intravenous vitamin C therapy has a positive effect by reducing illness symptoms, disease duration and viral antibody levels."
-Intravenous Vitamin C and Infectious Mononucleosis: A Case Report (2018) (https://isom.ca/article/intravenous-vitamin-c-infectious-mononucleosis-case-report/)

Other pathogens treated with IV ascorbate (vitamin C):
  The Riordan Clinic (https://riordanclinic.org/what-we-do/high-dose-iv-vitamin-c/) are the leading specialist in IV Vitamin C administration. They describe their protocol in detail here: RiordanIVCprotocol (https://riordanclinic.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/RiordanIVCprotocol_en.pdf)

Vitamin C pharmacokinetics:
(https://i.imgur.com/HNRAQKH.png)
Fig. from: "Vitamin C pharmacokinetics: implications for oral and intravenous use", Ann Intern Med. 2004 (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15068981)) (click figure to show full resolution)

  Liposomal vitamin C is more than 60 times less bioavailable than intravenous ascorbate. See liposomal VC bioavailability graph (Fig 3 (https://i.imgur.com/aGJYwER.png)) from: "Pharmacokinetics of Vitamin C: insights into the oral and intravenous administration of ascorbate", PRHSJ (2008) (Ref (http://prhsj.rcm.upr.edu/index.php/prhsj/article/view/13/11)). Therefore, oral vitamin C supplementation cannot replace intravenous vitamin C.

  Many high-dose intravenous ascorbate studies are done in cancer patients. So cancer-ascorbate studies may provide useful information for experience with bioavaibility, tolerability and side-effects.
(https://i.imgur.com/zRw0Yvi.png)
Fig. from: "Clinical experience with intravenous administration of ascorbic acid: achievable levels in blood for different states of inflammation and disease in cancer patients", Journal of Translational Medicine 2013 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23947403) (click figure to show full resolution)

In vitro virucidal mechanism for copper + intravenous vitamin C:
  The inactivation of viruses by vitamin C (ascorbate) requires copper ions (Inactivation of Vaccinia Virus by Ascorbic Acid (http://www.microbiologyresearch.org/docserver/fulltext/micro/35/1/mic-35-1-75.pdf?expires=1538411496&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=0BB1D5D8496AFB7D52175E33B9DAEFF2)). Copper II ions (CuII) binds to the guanine (G base) of latent herpes RNA. Then vitamin C (ascorbate, AscH-) reduces the copper ion in a Fenton reaction producing reactive oxygen species (free radicals: O2*, H2O2, HO*) (Ref (http://flipper.diff.org/app/pathways/6861), Ref1987 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2822548)).
(http://pubs.rsc.org/services/images/RSCpubs.ePlatform.Service.FreeContent.ImageService.svc/ImageService/Articleimage/2016/DT/c6dt01979j/c6dt01979j-s1_hi-res.gif)
From Scheme 1 (http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleHtml/2016/DT/c6dt01979j)
  The free radical HO* cuts and separates the virus RNA at the G base location of the bound copper ion (Ref1983 (https://academic.oup.com/jb/article-abstract/94/4/1259/781985), Ref1997 (http://aac.asm.org/content/41/4/812.short), Ref1983 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6317379)). This removes the latent virus by destroying herpes genetic material and virus in the cytoplasm. CuII-ascorbate also disables viruses in the capsid (Ref1986 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC268964/)).

  Intravenous vitamin C (ascorbate) is safe in humans (Ref2010 (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0011414)) and has been used in clinical practice as both adjunct and primary therapy to treat various symptoms related to viral infections (Ref, Ref, Ref). The maximum tolerable daily dose is 18g (Ref2015 (https://www.ffhdj.com/index.php/ffhd/article/view/174/351)).

Vitamin C (ascorbate) + copper (CuII) toxicity:
  Sodium Ascorbate can be taken intravenously up to 30g per day in healthy humans without complications. Cu(II) is natural found in the blood at a concentration of  1mg/L or 16uM (RefSL1997 (https://aac.asm.org/content/41/4/812.short)). However, if copper is also supplemented to superphysiological levels, then the dose of vitamin C will have to be monitored more closely.
(https://i.imgur.com/DiTCbRV.png)
Fig. from: "Inactivation of HSV-2 by ascorbate-Cu(II) and its protecting evaluation in CF-1 mice against encephalitis", Journal of Virological Methods 120 (2004) 161-165 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15288958) (click figure to show full resolution)

Vitamin C: optimal dosages, supplementation and use in disease prevention (2105) (https://www.ffhdj.com/index.php/ffhd/article/view/174/351)
Vitamin C IV infusion is safe: Vitamin C: Intravenous Use by Complementary and Alternative Medicine Practitioners and Adverse Effects (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0011414)
DNA- and Protein-Scission Activities of Ascorbate in the Presence of Copper Ion and a Copper-Peptide Complex (1983) (https://academic.oup.com/jb/article-abstract/94/4/1259/781985)
Mechanism of copper-mediated inactivation of herpes simplex virus. (1997) (http://aac.asm.org/content/41/4/812.short)
Virucidal agents in the eve of manorapid synergy (2007) (https://www.egms.de/static/en/journals/dgkh/2007-2/dgkh000051.shtml)
A Clinical Pilot Study of Lignin-Ascorbic Acid Combination Treatment of Herpes Simplex Virus (2009) (http://iv.iiarjournals.org/content/23/6/1011.full)
Inactivation of Vaccinia Virus by Ascorbic Acid (1964) (https://www.microbiologyresearch.org/docserver/fulltext/micro/35/1/mic-35-1-75.pdf?expires=1551729171&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=BCE01BFBC6AD0578AC8B946D8AE24A03)
Inactivation of Vaccinia Virus by Ascorbic Acid and Glutathione (1937) (https://www.nature.com/articles/139965b0)
The antiviral properties of vitamin C (2019) (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14787210.2020.1706483?scroll=top&needAccess=true&)
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Title: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 15
Post by: nanna1 on April 30, 2018, 12:39:10 AM
POIS literature review

References:
Review:
  The name "Post-Orgasmic Illness Syndrome" was first proposed by Waldinger and Schweitzer (2002) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11995603). Waldinger, et al (2011) were also the first to give a diagnostic criteria and classifying symptoms related to POIS into clusters. In this article, the investigators propose that POIS is a combination of type I (IgE allergy) and type II (hapten-antigen) hypersensitivities to the male's own semen. However, 22 percent of the patients did not have positive skin prick test of the autologous semen.

  Dexter (2009) treated a POIS patient who was relieved from symptoms by vaginal intercourse only during his wife's pregnancies. When his wife was not pregnant, any form of sexual activity and/or nocturnal emissions produced POIS symptoms. The patient was successfully treated with a synthetic progesterone (norethisterone, 5mg daily) a experienced 95 percent relief of post-orgasm symptoms.
  Ashby and Goldmeier (2010) treated two patients prophylactically with the non-selective COX inhibitor diclofenac. One of the patients responded to this drug with 80 percent relief of POIS symptoms. In communications with Abdalla Attia, David Goldmeier has suggested that the therapeutic benefit of diclofenac (50mg) is superior to other NSAIDs like ibuprofen (400mg) (Attia, et al, 2013). As of February 2019, prophylactic diclofenac (50mg) and daily norethisterone (5mg) are the only two drug therapies that have demonstrated success in treating Post-orgasmic Illness Syndrome in a peer reviewed publication.

  Jia Yin, et al (2015), disputed the Waldinger (2011) hypothesis by demonstrating a negative case of type I (IgE-dependent) hypersensitivity in the presence of a positive skin reaction to autologous seminal fluid. Instead Jia Yin, et al (2015), proposed that POIS might be caused by a disregulation of the mu-opiod receptor using an plausibility argument related to other diseases with similar symptoms.

  Attia, et al (2013) also directly disputed the plausibility of a semen-induced hypersensitivity (type I and type IV), arguing that such a disease would likely require the disruption of the blood-testis barrier and produce symptoms inhibiting fertility which are not commonly observed in patients with POIS. Instead Attia, et al (2013) proposed that POIS is a hypersensitivity response that occurs outside of the reproductive organs and is not dependent on contents of the semen. In a reply to a reviewer of their publication they state the following: "If allergy to the patient's own semen is a suspected cause of POIS, it will be necessary to measure serum and seminal plasma anti-sperm antibodies; IgA, IgG and IgM, to conduct immunobead (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8671478) and MAR testing (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3839964) and to report on the patient's seminogram changes. This might also suggest that POIS patients would be mostly infertile due to formation of anti sperm antibodies."

  Later, Waldinger (2016) proposed that POIS was mediated by antigens released from prostatic tissue and are not bound to human sperm. This hypothesis was based on the newly documented observation that women experience POIS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2755.msg24730#msg24730) and the fact that male POIS patients that undergo a sterilization treatment continue to experience POIS even after they no longer can produce spermatozoa (Waldinger, 2016). This proposed sperm-independent antigen (type IV hypersensitivity) partially circumvented the objections that Attia et al (2013) presented to the reviewer concerning sperm mediated allergy. However, since sperm cells are not the sole determiner of fertility in men, questions raised by Abdalla Attia concerning the integrity of the blood barrier, the production of antibodies and the absence of observed infertility in patients still remain.

  In agreement with Attia's concerns about the semen mediated immune hypersensitivity model, some members of POIScenter.com online forum (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php) who self-diagnose as experiencing POIS, also report POIS-like symptoms from activities that do not involve sexual arousal, sexual stimulation, orgasm or non-sexual stimulation of the reproductive organs. These POIS-like symptoms mirror in-part or in-whole the syndrome that they experience after orgasm or ejaculation. The most common non-sexual triggers of these symptoms include physical exercise, warm temperatures and loss of sleep (message 24788 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788)). Moreover, several members of POIScenter.com self-report symptoms which are left-right asymmetric with respect to the locations in the body of where POIS symptoms occur. In these members some observed symptoms only occur on one side of the body (message 24788 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788)). This observation may contradict POIS hypotheses where an aggravating molecule (allergen/antigen) of long half-life diffuses through the blood unless there are antibodies in the blood to reduce the effective half-life of the antigen and limit its dissemination.

  More recently, questions have been raised about the methods used in the studies by Waldinger, et. al. (2011):
"Limitations of the studies by Waldinger et al. include a lack of healthy control men for the autologous semen SPT results and the observational study design."
Post-Orgasmic Illness Syndrome: A Review (Hellstrom, 2018) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29128269)

  Moreover, given the fact that semen is a rich source of prostaglandins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostaglandin), cytokines and polyamines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamine) (Semen composition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semen#Human_semen)), there are still questions as to whether the subcutaneous autologous semen injections in the Waldinger, et al (2011) study actually functions as a hyposensitization therapy. The immune signaling molecules (i.e. prostaglandins, cytokines and polyamines) contained in semen are directly immune modulatory on their own (FC Denison, et al, 1999 (https://academic.oup.com/molehr/article/5/3/220/1404473)). To support the conclusion that autologous semen injection produces hyposensitization, the suspected antigenic proteins would need to be separated from these signalling molecules prior to injection.

  Jia Yin, et al (2015), did not find IgE reactivity with semen proteins in three patients even though skin test with autologous semen were positive. Lee, et al (2018) established correlation but not causation for IgE responsiveness to one patients semen. However, in another patient Depreux, et al, (2018) found no IgE mediated response to semen proteins. They also found no immune response to autologous semen skin-prick test or intracutaneous injection indicating that there was no hypersensitivity to semen components in this patient.

Other valuable resources:

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Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Hopeoneday on April 30, 2018, 05:12:21 AM
Hi Nana1 thanks a lot.
Because of this link (post on botom) here and ragarding to symptomes i conect this posible viral couse to some of us. VAGUS nerve palsy coused by viral infections is rare. I hawe sypmtomes of dysphonia, dysphagia and i found this conection.

See - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11551239
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Ciccio on April 30, 2018, 08:30:04 AM
Thank you for your very very good work nanna1!!!
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: aswinpras06 on April 30, 2018, 09:25:57 AM
Very very informative and useful info.  Thanks  a lot Nanna1 for your painstaking work.

Gene editing as a way to eradicate latent viruses is currently researched as per this article.  So in the near future it may be one more tool to fight pois, if it is caused by latent viruses.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/can-we-gene-edit-herpes-away-180968551/
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on April 30, 2018, 08:28:50 PM
Thanks alot Nanna in your effort.
Although I have my doubts about Herpes; since I tried aciclovir myself and nothing changed. But most importantly the herpes infection needs to be tested in laboratory to confirm that what we have is a dormant hepres virus.
I'm 100% for an anti-inflammational treatment to the brain, but the problem is that celebrex is not that common of a medication. And not so many medication can cross the BBB. So this needs to be our focus point, which is finding an anti-inflammatory that can cross the BBB and is accessable to some degree for the public.
In a seance, I would like to know what would a doctor perscribe for us if we explained to him what we have ib detail.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on May 01, 2018, 01:21:38 AM
Thanks All for sharing your articles, suggestion, questions. I'm learning so much from everybody and I love to learn new things. We beat POIS together! Also it helps to know that others go through what you go through. Over this past week I have been going out eating with friends and eating the wrong foods (cheese, chicken beef). Now I have that familiar headache even without the O. It sucks. The diet requires discipline that I am hoping to avoid one day.

Nas, when I described my symptoms to a neurologist, he said that I have Sex Headaches (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/sex-headaches/symptoms-causes/syc-20377477). The standard treatment for sex headaches is phospholipase A2 inhibitors (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23773#msg23773). This is how I found out about indomethacin. I about a year ago I was diagnosed with sex headaches and the doctor prescribed indomethacin. But I didn't take it then because I read about the side effects of daily use. But here is a recent test:
  My neurologist once prescribed the COX-2 inhibitor, indomethacin, to me to treat orgasm induced headaches. I didn't take it at the time because indomethacin has longterm side effects on the stomach and liver. Recently, I tested indomethacin (~30 min prior to sex) without taking the POIS Cascade Stack for one-week. Indomethacin alone stopped 85% of my POIS symptoms. Their was some mild discomfort in my left ear and left side of forehead. This discomfort did not effect my productivity at work. I took a second dose of indomethacin the next day along with a Gen-1 H1-histamine receptor blocker, and all of my POIS symptoms were gone.
Some doctors also prescribe tripsans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triptan) (5-HT1 agonist) to treat sex headaches. Phospholipase inhibitors and tripsans are basically migraine and cluster headache medications. Sex headaches mainly occur in men but are not a rare disease like POIS. My symptoms are definitely broader and longer lasting than typical sex headaches. Here is some more info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_headache
https://www.migrainesurvival.com/orgasmic-headaches
https://americanmigrainefoundation.org/understanding-migraine/orgasmic-pre-orgasmic-headache/
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on May 01, 2018, 02:50:07 PM
Nas, when I described my symptoms to a neurologist, he said that I have Sex Headaches (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/sex-headaches/symptoms-causes/syc-20377477). The standard treatment for sex headaches is phospholipase A2 inhibitors (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23773#msg23773). This is how I found out about indomethacin. I about a year ago I was diagnosed with sex headaches and the doctor prescribed indomethacin. But I didn't take it because I read about the side effects of daily use.
Some doctors also prescribe tripsans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triptan) (5-HT1 agonist) to treat sex headaches. Phospholipase inhibitors and tripsans are basically migraine and cluster headache medications. Sex headaches mainly occur in men but are not a rare disease like POIS. My symptoms are definitely broader and longer lasting than typical sex headaches. Here is some more info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_headache
https://www.migrainesurvival.com/orgasmic-headaches
https://americanmigrainefoundation.org/understanding-migraine/orgasmic-pre-orgasmic-headache/

Hey Nanna
Yes they perscribed to you treatment for sexual headaches but what would they describe in the case of brain inflammation? I don't see why a doctor would perscribe treatment for sexual headache while what we clearly have is brain inflammation.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: demografx on May 01, 2018, 06:19:27 PM
Unfortunately, only post-orgasmic headaches have been written about (a case study or two), but not about post-orgasmic brain inflammation.

That’s my guess as to why a doctor might not understand the difference.

Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on May 02, 2018, 10:53:20 AM
Unfortunately, only post-orgasmic headaches have been written about (a case study or two), but not about post-orgasmic brain inflammation.

That’s my guess as to why a doctor might not understand the difference.

That's true, but brain inflammation is still brain inflammation and a doctor can at least perscribe a remedy for the brain inflammation as the main symptom.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: demografx on May 02, 2018, 05:50:31 PM
Yes, Nas, that makes sense. Hopefully, the treating doctor will not look at POIS superficially, and get to the point of looking deeper and correctly identifying the brain inflammation.

You may sense that I don’t trust today’s medical POIS-and-related-symptoms’ diagnosis with great confidence :)


Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on May 02, 2018, 05:56:44 PM
Yes, Nas, that makes sense. Hopefully, the treating doctor will not look at POIS superficially, and get to the point of looking deeper and correctly identifying the brain inflammation.

Exactly, if we confuse the doctor with POIS as an illness he might overlook our important sympotms, but if we came to him complaining from the sympotms without going too deep on our post orgasmic issue perhaps he can focus on what truely matters which is finding a remedy for brain inflammation.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: certainlypois2 on May 02, 2018, 11:28:05 PM
Yes, Nas, that makes sense. Hopefully, the treating doctor will not look at POIS superficially, and get to the point of looking deeper and correctly identifying the brain inflammation.

Exactly, if we confuse the doctor with POIS as an illness he might overlook our important sympotms, but if we came to him complaining from the sympotms without going too deep on our post orgasmic issue perhaps he can focus on what truely matters which is finding a remedy for brain inflammation.

I am going to start saying i have chronic fatigue syndrome and i will like to fix the brainfog aspect of it by reducing brain inflammation.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: certainlypois2 on May 03, 2018, 12:50:52 AM
hey nanna you said the antiviral+celebrex combination is already calibrated with dosage and dose timing but when i read those papers i dont see any specifics on dosages.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Hopeoneday on May 03, 2018, 03:59:32 PM
Is this posible why small dose of benzos help a lot to me.
Acute stres and mybe geneticly mutated C-realising hormone play role to Imunnity suppresion

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8298983

https://nyaspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1749-6632.1990.tb40499.x
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on May 04, 2018, 06:05:25 PM
Hey certainlypois2,

Sorry for not including the Celecoxib + Famciclovir Trial info in the grant post (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23777#msg23777). It is located in their patent "FAMCICLOVR AND CELECOXIB COMBINATION THERAPY KIT FOR COGNITIVE DYSFUNCTION (US20160199377A1) (https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/6e/b1/73/436e4e84d7aad0/US20160199377A1.pdf)" on page 11 of the patent (page 17 of the .PDF): section F (Combinations and Combination Therapy): example A (Human Clinical Trials).

Twice daily with food:
-celecoxib: 200mg
-famciclovir: 500mg first week then 250mg maintanence dose

From the patent:
(https://i.imgur.com/DmxRoRx.png)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: certainlypois2 on May 05, 2018, 02:37:33 PM
Hey certainlypois2,

Sorry for not including the Celecoxib + Famciclovir Trial info in the grant post (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23777#msg23777). It is located in their patent "FAMCICLOVR AND CELECOXIB COMBINATION THERAPY KIT FOR COGNITIVE DYSFUNCTION (US20160199377A1) (https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/6e/b1/73/436e4e84d7aad0/US20160199377A1.pdf)" on page 11 of the patent (page 17 of the .PDF): section F (Combinations and Combination Therapy): example A (Human Clinical Trials).

Twice daily with food:
-celecoxib: 200mg
-famciclovir: 500mg first week then 250mg maintanence dose

From the patent:
(https://i.imgur.com/DmxRoRx.png)
thanks
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Hopeoneday on May 05, 2018, 03:20:05 PM
Thanks Nana, those figs explane a lot, it is worth to try.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on May 24, 2018, 05:58:44 PM
Here are some of my medical test results. All of these test were taken after I started noticing I get sick after orgasm. None of the test were timed around a specific orgasm, nocturnal emission or any other POIS inducing event.
1. Summary of symptoms:
POIS: My POIS symptoms mostly occur on the left side of my body. Before I started taking supplements, the symptoms would last for 5-8 days. The POIS pain starts in the center of my brain in the left hemisphere towards the base of the brain. The pain/dullness spreads to the left ear, behind the left eye and down the left-back side of my neck in the spinal cord area. I then get a runny nose in my left nostril with occasional sneezing (rhinitis). Pain can then extend to the upper left back and left side of my stomach (IBS symptoms) and is usually accompanied by diarrhea. Pain would sometimes extend to other parts of the left side of my body. After about 24 hours post-orgasm some of the POIS symptoms (like headaches and fatigue) could be experienced on both the left and right side of my body. Acne develops on my face and back, and new freckles develop on my face. Also, there were memory and concentration problems.

Exercise: Exercise caused sneezing and runny nose in my left nostril. I also had exercise induced IBS with diarrhea, unusually long DOMS/recovery and chronic fatigue (5-8 days). I still can get fasciculation shortly after resistance exercise.

Sensory/scratching: Additionally, scratching my chin/beard on the left side of my face reproduces all the POIS symptoms that I would normally get from orgasm. I sometimes have a compulsion to scratch my beard when I am stressed or trying to concentrate on something or am sleep deprived. I've noticed that scratching and grooming hair on my face (head, eyebrow, beard) produces some affect that keeps me alert and helps me think when I am trying to figure something out (almost like caffeine). However, it is only when I repeatedly scratch my chin on the left side that I get really sick.

  I can say that there are short-term and long-term effects of my stack. In the short-term, my stack relieves all of my symptoms. When I stop taking the stack most of the POIS symptoms slowly return within a week.

Update May 2018:
  However, I have experienced long-term relief in two areas even when I do not take supplements. I currently do not experience any exercise induce POIS-like sickness. There is no DOMS anymore from exercise < 45 mins. I also no longer experience POIS on the right side of my body. If I stop supplements in my stack, POIS symptoms will only be on the left side of my body with the exception of a headache which is on the left and right side.

Update March 2019:
  When I first started posting on this forum in mid-2017, my symptoms fell into POIS clusters (https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/10809/postorgasmic-illness-syndrome#diseaseSymptomsSection) 1, 3, 4, 5 and 7. Now I no longer experience POIS clusters 1 and 7 even when I do not take my supplement stack. Also even when I am not following the stack-diet, the symptoms that I had in clusters 3 and 5 are reduced significantly and almost unnoticeable. I think that I still have POIS, but over the past year many of my natural symptoms have been disappearing.
 
2. Skin prick allergy test:
  I am allergic to the cedar tree, seasonal grass (bahia, bermuta, timothy, johnson), fungus (alternaria, bipolaris, phoma, stemphylium, epicoccum), and cat fur.
  I do not have food allergies. I do not have gluten or dairy allergies. I also do not have an allergic reaction to candida. (test 1 (https://i.imgur.com/h3Xv0jH.jpg), test 2 (https://i.imgur.com/gBLxMS8.jpg))

3. Autoimmunity blood test:
  I have been tested for autoimmune diseases twice. My systemic antibodies are normal (test 1 (bottom of page) (https://i.imgur.com/txsLwof.jpg), test 2 (https://i.imgur.com/3NHK63L.jpg), letter 1 (https://i.imgur.com/lpE45pj.jpg), letter 2 (https://i.imgur.com/DQ2mS7t.jpg)). This may not exclude local autoimmunity in a specific region of the brain. These test do not include anti-acetylcholine and anti-NMDA receptor antibodies.

4. Virus and bacteria test abnormal:
  I tested negative for HIV, HSV-1 and HSV-2 (test 1 (bottom of page) (https://i.imgur.com/gRP1oHf.jpg), test 2 (https://i.imgur.com/MmWkF30.jpg), letter (https://i.imgur.com/DQ2mS7t.jpg)). I tested negative for hepatitis A, B and C (test 1 (bottom of page) (https://i.imgur.com/gRP1oHf.jpg), test 3 (https://i.imgur.com/gC3hiJ1.jpg)). I tested negative for the bacteria H. pylori (see 7. Gut health and IBS: section). I tested negative for EBV (HHV-4) and the Lyme disease (Borrelia burgdorferi), but I tested positive for VZV (HHV-3), CMV (HHV-5) and HHV-6 (test 4 (https://i.imgur.com/XvQ0goG.png), test 6 (https://i.imgur.com/KPBQL1h.png), test 7 (https://i.imgur.com/aIYs0dk.png)). I tested negative for the bacteria Toxoplasma gondii (test 5 (https://i.imgur.com/PWyqAnP.png)).

5. Urine test:
 My urine is alkaline. An indicator of reproductive tract infection, leukocyte esterase (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leukocyte_esterase), is normal. (test (https://i.imgur.com/juuHHld.png))

6. Hormone Tests (Thyroid and Steroid) and B12:
  My thyroid levels are normal and my vitamin D levels are normal. (test 1 (https://i.imgur.com/akOCbpk.jpg), test 2 - top of page (https://i.imgur.com/w1EG4RG.png)). My vitamin B12 levels are normal (test 3 - middle of page (https://i.imgur.com/gRP1oHf.jpg)).
  Testosterone, progesterone, estrogen and luteinizing hormone are normal, but sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) is high (test 4 (https://i.imgur.com/PWyqAnP.png)).

7. Gut health and IBS:
  My POIS symptoms were overlapping with stomach pain on my left side. I was diagnosed with irritable bowel syndrome (IBS).
  I receive a ultrasound of my stomach where my IBS symptoms were. The ultrasound image did not show any physical abnormalities. (doctors summary 1 (https://i.imgur.com/MfxZeHB.jpg))
  I also received a colonoscopy. No tumors or ulcers were found. There does not seem to be any inflammation in my stomach associated with the IBS symptoms (doctors summary 2 (https://i.imgur.com/kfHREKI.jpg)).
  I also tested negative for H. pylori 3 times. (doctors summary 1 (https://i.imgur.com/MfxZeHB.jpg))

8. Comprehensive metabolic panel:
  My electrolyte and albumin levels are normal (test (https://i.imgur.com/w1EG4RG.png))

9. Complete Blood Count abnormal:
Red blood cell (RBC) count, hemoglobin and hematocrin levels fluctuate between test, but tend to be on the low side: (test 1 (https://i.imgur.com/bT2bfA6.png), test 2 (https://i.imgur.com/G1KS5Ts.png))
Iron levels are normal: (letter (https://i.imgur.com/lpE45pj.jpg))
White blood cell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_blood_cell#Types) (leukocytes, granulocytes) counts (WBC and Gran) are consistently low: (test 1 (https://i.imgur.com/bT2bfA6.png), test 2 (https://i.imgur.com/G1KS5Ts.png), test 3 (https://i.imgur.com/gLhAMaD.png))
The word Granulocyte is sometimes used to refer to Neutrophil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_blood_cell#Neutrophil).
RBC sedimentation rate (SED RATE) is normal, indicating that I do not have systemic inflammation: (test 2 - top of page (https://i.imgur.com/G1KS5Ts.png))
Platelet counts are normal: (test 1 - middle of page (https://i.imgur.com/bT2bfA6.png), test 2 - middle of page (https://i.imgur.com/G1KS5Ts.png), test 3 - PLT (https://i.imgur.com/gLhAMaD.png), test 8 (https://i.imgur.com/NT5NbH8.png))
Other white blood cells (leukocytes, immune cells) such as Monocytes (MONO), Eosinophil (EOS), and Basophil (BASO) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_blood_cell#Types) are normal: (test 2 -bottom of page (https://i.imgur.com/G1KS5Ts.png), test 8 (https://i.imgur.com/NT5NbH8.png))
Urine test show that the leukocyte esterase (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leukocyte_esterase) levels are normal. So it does not seem that I have a urinary or prostate infection: (test 4 - bottom of page (https://i.imgur.com/juuHHld.png))
reticulocyte (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticulocyte#Clinical_significance) (RETIC) levels are normal: (test 5 - bottom of page (https://i.imgur.com/txsLwof.jpg))
reactive lymphocyte (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_lymphocyte#Causes) (LYMPH) levels are normal, but the ratio of LYMPH:GRAN is high: (test 6 (https://i.imgur.com/YE0dpcq.jpg), test 7 (https://i.imgur.com/6iQQ0u8.jpg), test 3 - LYMPH % center of page (https://i.imgur.com/gLhAMaD.png))
Update: CBC test results (https://i.imgur.com/NT5NbH8.png)
Lymphocyte subset test (Outside of POIS) (test normal (https://i.imgur.com/WtG1Pz3.png)):
-T cells (CD3 normal, CD8 normal)
-B cells (CD19 normal)
-Natural Killer cells (NK cells) (CD16+CD56+)
Update: more CBC test (test 9 (https://i.imgur.com/KPBQL1h.png), test 10 (https://i.imgur.com/aIYs0dk.png))

10. Cholesterol and lipids:
  My cholesterol levels are all normal (test (https://i.imgur.com/sujQgWm.png)).

11. Brain scan:
  My first brain MRI was completely normal (summary (https://i.imgur.com/6Lt95Ww.jpg)). I was diagnosed with a saccular aneurysm by a neurologist (summary of MRI and MRA/angiogram (https://i.imgur.com/JcI3jLA.png)).

12. Methylation/homocysteine blood test:
  I stopped taking the majority of my supplement stack (choline/B-vitamins/omega-3/CLA) more than a week prior to getting the blood test. No creatine loading. No creatine more than 3 days prior to the blood test. Avoided other supplemental sources of B-vitamins like sport drinks. The only supplement I took the day of the test was vitamin D3. My homocysteine levels are normal (test (https://i.imgur.com/vBiVjGw.png)).

13. Mast cell activation syndrome and mastocytosis:
  (Tryptase blood levels (https://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/81608)) This test was taken at the same time and under the same conditions as the homocysteine test above. I was not experiencing POIS at the time of this test. My tryptase levels are normal (tryptase test (https://i.imgur.com/Fkx14ts.gif)). At a later date, I also took a histamine blood test while not in a POIS state. My histamine blood levels are normal (histamine test (https://i.imgur.com/sluYv9g.png))

SUMMARY:
These test were not timed around an orgasm, exercise or any specific stressful event.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on May 24, 2018, 07:18:51 PM
Interesting Nanna,

If you can please post your results here: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24024#msg24024 
for future ease of access.

Quote
autoimmunity blood test:
I have been tested for autoimmune diseases twice. My systemic antibodies are normal. I do not have a systemic autoimmune disease. (test 1 (bottom of page), test 2, letter, letter)
You say here that you do not have systemic autoimmune disease, but were you on POIS when you've done the test? because I'd imagine inflammation is a symptom of an active POIS.

Quote
My reactive lymphocyte (LYMPH) levels are very high (test 5, test 6).
Hmmmm, very interesting; I wish you would make a further comment upon that because that can be an evidence of a viral illness.

Quote
I do not have test for herpes viruses VZV, EBV, CMV, HHV-6 yet
We'll be waiting anxiously! Cause that would do us a lot in proving the theory!
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on May 26, 2018, 12:16:34 PM
Hi Nas,

Thanks for telling me about the "Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24052#msg24052)" thread. I posted a link there to the above test results.

Quote
You say here that you do not have systemic autoimmune disease, but were you on POIS when you've done the test? because I'd imagine inflammation is a symptom of an active POIS.
  I did not time the test around an orgasm or exercise. In these test, I may be or may not be experiencing POIS symptoms. In most of these cases, I just went to the doctor when I had time or when they could schedule me. So it is still possible that an orgasm causes events leading to temporary inflammation.
  The lack of autoimmune antibodies indicates that the cause of my POIS is probably not a general property of the immune cells themselves. So if or when the immune system is activated, it is responding to something external to the immune system. Also, because my sedimentation rate (https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/sed-rate/about/pac-20384797) is normal, the cause of my POIS most likely does not cause inflammation outside of the brain unless there is an orgasm. The sedimentation rate test is not a conclusive test, but it is a standard indicator of systemic inflammation. There still could be autoimmune antibodies that are being produced in the brain but do not cross the blood-brain-barrier (BBB). I am not sure if a blood test can show detailed immune response in the nervous system because of BBB.

Quote
Quote
My reactive lymphocyte (LYMPH) levels are very high (test 5, test 6).
Hmmmm, very interesting; I wish you would make a further comment upon that because that can be an evidence of a viral illness.
  My lymphocyte test (LYMPH) are consistent with Muon's test (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24021#msg24021). His test showed abnormal T (Th-1,2) cells which are the source of chemokines (IL-8, IFN-gamma, etc...). Lymphocytes are a class of immune cells that include B cells, T cells and NK cells (see table in White Blood Cell: Types (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_blood_cell#Types)). The test the doctor ordered for me do not differentiate between B, T, and NK cells to see which ones are elevated, but I will try to get a doctor to order a more detailed lymphocyte and basophil test.

Quote
Quote
I do not have test for herpes viruses VZV, EBV, CMV, HHV-6 yet
We'll be waiting anxiously! Cause that would do us a lot in proving the theory!
I agree that the VZV, EBV, CMV, HHV-6 test are important, but they are also expensive. The cheapest price I could find in my area was $200 (USA) each. That is $800 total minimum. I am trying to get a doctor to order the test for me and hopefully the insurance company will pay for it. I wish we could create some fund to subsidize/reimburse these test.

Thanks for your great questions!  :)



Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on June 08, 2018, 09:00:51 PM
  I saw a new neurologist today and gave him all of my previous medical records, including brain MRIs and MRAs not shown above. I described my symptoms in detail, but I did not share any theories or science that I have researched. I wanted his unbiased assessment of the test results and symptoms. The neurologists official diagnosis is hemicrania continua of the trigeminal autonomic cephalalgia group (https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Disorders/All-Disorders/Hemicrania-Continua-Information-Page). I looked this up and trigeminal autonomic cephalalgia is a group of neurological diseases. Hemicrania continua is the sub group. He prescribed the medication, Zonisamide, as a preventative.

  Also, I had another complete blood count (CBC) test ordered (CBC test results (https://i.imgur.com/NT5NbH8.png)). This test was ordered the day after (about 12 hours) an orgasm. I was not experiencing POIS symptoms the day I took this blood test. The majority of my blood test improved. My red blood cell (RBC), hemoglobin, hematocrin and lymphocyte levels are normal. My neutrophil (WBC, GRAN) numbers are still low.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on June 09, 2018, 11:53:28 AM
IL-8 induces chemotaxis of neutrophils. It wouldn't surprise me if your IL-8 level is elevated nanna.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: FernandoPOIS on June 11, 2018, 01:17:31 PM
I have the herpes simplex virus.
Another statistic for a possible study.
I believe in this theory. It can be damaging our nerves and thereby altering the response to the orgasm event.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on June 12, 2018, 03:16:14 PM
  Interesting correlation Muon, you are right that IL-8 is one of the main chemokines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemokine#Types_by_cell_attracted) for neutrophils. Maybe I should get that checked! I plan to order some more detailed test (including virus test) within the next 2 weeks.  I have been looking at your post on Parameter input from members (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2660.msg23425#msg23425) for ideas on which test could rule out certain potential causes of POIS. My strategy is to do process of elimination to rule out certain causes. I do not want to prove the correct cause. I will rather try to disprove the wrong causes. I am open to any other blood test selection strategies.

  Thanks Fernando for sharing about your HSV. That is valuable information.

  Last Friday, I went to see a neurologist. I gave him all of my medical records and described my symptoms without mentioning any theories or biochemistry of the immune system. I did not want to bias him because I was hoping that he could give me some new ideas or information that I did not already know. He diagnosed me with hemicrania continua of the trigeminal autonomic cephalalgia group (https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Disorders/All-Disorders/Hemicrania-Continua-Information-Page). This headache is cause by excitation/stimulation of the trigeminal nerve in the brain. I did some research on this type of headache and it is associated with watery eyes, nasal congestion and/or runny nose. The trigeminal nerves stimulation by arousal is associated with orgasm (and coitus fantasy) induced sneezing (Ref 1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2625373/), Ref 2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2077498/)). Not all the reported symptoms match my symptoms, but I just wanted to share this as a potential lead on what might cause POIS.
  Towards the end of the doctors visit (after his diagnosis), I asked the neurologist if hemicrania continua could be caused by a viral trigeminal nerve infection. He said that there is a hypothesis that it could be caused by viral infection, but that hypothesis remains controversial. He said that hemicrania continua is idiopathic, meaning that the official cause of this type of headache is unknown. I put a picture of the trigeminal nerve at the end of the POIS as a location-specific herpes infection (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23766#msg23766) post (nerve outlined in orange color).
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Hopeoneday on June 12, 2018, 04:38:57 PM
Hi nana, does your neurologist mention enything about yours symtomes from excercise and posible couses of this by spreading of yours aneuryasm?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on June 12, 2018, 11:08:01 PM
Hi Hopeoneday,

  I did not talk much with the doctor about the exercise component, but there were notes about exercise related symptoms in the medical files I gave him. As far as the brain MRI goes, there is some doubt about whether it is an aneurysm or an infundibulum. This is discussed at the bottom of the report (MRI angiogram summary (https://i.imgur.com/JcI3jLA.png)). The second neurologist basically just gave a disease diagnosis and ordered another brain scan. So I still do not fully know what is going on with that blood vessel. However all the other blood vessels are normal, blood flow is normal and they did not find any other abnormalities. So it is not a systemic problem with my blood vessels.

  My guess is that the 2.4mm aneurysm (or infundibulum) is very near the location of a nerve infection. The immune system uses histamine to open the blood brain barrier so that immune cells (neutrophils, T cells) can enter the brain and attack the pathogen. So it seems like the process that allows immune cells to enter the brain also inflames the blood vessel at that location. This is my guess for why that aneurysm is there. So it would be something analogous to what happens for other types of tissue infections.
(https://i.imgur.com/72Qm7SO.png)
figure from: https://courses.lumenlearning.com/microbiology/chapter/inflammation-and-fever/

(https://i.imgur.com/9IDCokP.jpg)
figure from: http://www.macmillanhighered.com/BrainHoney/Resource/6716/digital_first_content/trunk/test/hillis2e/asset/img_ch39/c39_fig04.html

  This blood vessel is in the left side of my brain, which is the same side as where most of my symptoms are experienced. However, the neurologist did not think this blood vessel is the cause of my POIS. Right now we are not sure what is going on with the blood vessel. But it could be the result of an immune response to a pathogen or some sort of blood pressure abnormalities.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on June 13, 2018, 01:17:22 PM
Something that caught my eye today:''PGD2 plays a role in the attraction of neutrophils (chemotaxis)''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostaglandin_D2
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on June 14, 2018, 10:56:10 PM
Thanks for sharing that Muon. Manipulating chemotaxis may be another strategy for treatment.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on June 19, 2018, 01:31:35 PM
  I updated my test results with VZV (HHV-3), EBV (HHV-4), CMV (HHV-5) and HHV-6 antibody blood test. Also included there is a Lyme disease antibody test.  Please see the Virus and bacteria test abnormal: (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039) section.
  I got the Lyme test because people were discussing it in Lyme Disease (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1997.0).
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Hopeoneday on June 19, 2018, 02:28:21 PM
Oooooo , this is suprise:

Virus and bacteria test abnormal:
  I tested negavitve for HIV, HSV-1 and HSV-2 (test 1 (bottom of page), test 2, letter). I tested negative for hepatitis A, B and C (test 1 (bottom of page), test 3). I tested negative for H. pylori (see Gut health and IBS: section). I tested negative for EBV (HHV-4) and Lyme, but I tested positive for VZV (HHV-3), CMV (HHV-5) and HHV-6 (test 4).

This mean that all this what me you and several odher members suspect of posible viral couses of pois for some of us.
https://hhv-6foundation.org/associated-conditions/hhv-6-and-immune-suppression

http://simmaronresearch.com/2013/12/one-theory-explain-vagus-nerve-infection-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on June 19, 2018, 03:59:32 PM
  I updated my test results with VZV (HHV-3), EBV (HHV-4), CMV (HHV-5) and HHV-6 antibody blood test. Also included there is a Lyme disease antibody test.  Please see the Virus and bacteria test abnormal: (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039) section.
  I got the Lyme test because people were discussing it in Lyme Disease (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1997.0).

Ok this is very interesting Nanna,
Now this doesn't mean that your theory is now proven because it doesn't explain the immediate inflammation that occurs in the crotch area and other symptoms like premature ejaculation and urethra inflammation. But overall this is a very positive development in the theory.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: devastated on June 21, 2018, 03:45:29 PM
Don't know if it's related, but check this out:

Researchers Find Herpes Viruses In Brains Marked By Alzheimer's Disease

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/06/21/621908340/researchers-find-herpes-viruses-in-brains-marked-by-alzheimers-disease?t=1529613876665
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Hopeoneday on June 21, 2018, 03:58:26 PM
Hah, intresting coincidence to my instict:
Like a lot of scientific discoveries, this one was an accident. "Viruses were the last thing we were looking for," Dudley says.

By the whey guys, did you watch movie-Messi(Leo) is coming home?
Goooooooooooooooooooooo Croaaaaaaaaaatiaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: demografx on June 21, 2018, 04:30:46 PM

(https://i.imgur.com/72Qm7SO.png)
figure from: https://courses.lumenlearning.com/microbiology/chapter/inflammation-and-fever/

(https://i.imgur.com/9IDCokP.jpg)
figure from: http://www.macmillanhighered.com/BrainHoney/Resource/6716/digital_first_content/trunk/test/hillis2e/asset/img_ch39/c39_fig04.html


Great graphics!
Demo
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: certainlypois2 on June 21, 2018, 05:06:52 PM
Hah, intresting coincidence to my instict:
Like a lot of scientific discoveries, this one was an accident. "Viruses were the last thing we were looking for," Dudley says.

By the whey guys, did you watch movie-Messi(Leo) is coming home?
Goooooooooooooooooooooo Croaaaaaaaaaatiaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!
LOL, iceland better beat nigeria
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on June 24, 2018, 10:52:43 PM
Thanks Demo!
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Hopeoneday on June 29, 2018, 02:54:09 PM
http://www.drpodell.org/chronic_fatigue_syndrome_treatments.shtml


By the way in the botom of uper link i found this pdf:

Inhibitors of Microglial Neurotoxicity: Focus on Natural Products
http://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/16/2/1021
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Hopeoneday on June 29, 2018, 02:57:30 PM
Nana, i think this will be intresting for to read.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323089/

Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) showed a focal lesion in the left thalamus, a medullar cord enlargement, and multiple lesions in the spinal cord white matter.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on July 05, 2018, 12:23:49 AM
  Thanks Hopeoneday for sharing those articles. I found that the drpodell (http://www.drpodell.org/chronic_fatigue_syndrome_treatments.shtml) link is useful for see what others in medicine have found successful.

  I have to make a correction to some of my previous post. I previously stated that all herpes viruses can establish latency in neurons. I am learning that HHV-(5,6) fit into a subclass of herpes viruses called Beta-herpesvirinae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betaherpesvirinae#Life_cycle). CMV (HHV-5) establish latency in Epithelial mucosa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucous_membrane) and HHV-6 establishes latency in certain white blood cells (T-cells, B-cells, NK-cell, monocytes, macrophages) and epithelial cells.

  HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV are in the sub class Alpha-herpesvirinae, and these are the viruses that are latent in neurons. EBV (HHV-4) establishes latency in B-cells of the immune system Ref (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epstein-Barr_virus#Latency).
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on July 05, 2018, 01:10:35 AM
  Recently I read an article (attached PDF) about a woman who had a similar MRI diagnosis as I do (my MRI angiogram Brain scan summary (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039)). She had a Saccular Aneurysm in the center of her brain (see Brain MRI of my test results), but the size of her aneurysm and the scale of her symptoms are much larger than mine. The woman had massive debilitating headaches with many other symptoms induced only by orgasm (Coital Headaches). The doctors cured her by surgically filling her aneurysm. So they demonstrated that her orgasms produced changes in the brain aneurysm that led to her symptoms. However, her symptoms only lasted for 1hour and she did not appear to have a lasting immune response to orgasm.

  From the images in the article and the patient profile given, I think it is safe to assume that there was blood-brain-barrier permeability associated with her aneurysm during these orgasms. I also think we can assume that there was vasodilation (expansion) of her aneurysm associated with these orgasms. Even if blood was penetrating into her brain, this was not enough to produce an immune response in her brain lasting longer than 1hour. It seems that you would need a systemic immune response to produce flu-like allergy-like symptoms (rhinitis, fatigue, etc...).

So I am wonder if POIS requires:
1. vasodilation of a damaged blood vessel in the brain
2. a triggerable virus that induces systemic immune response/chemotaxis

Can someone disprove this hypothesis or show where it is lacking?
For example:
1. Can vasocontriction of blood vessels in the brain stop POIS?
2. Can inhibition of virus replication stop POIS?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on July 05, 2018, 02:13:09 AM
  Thanks Hopeoneday for sharing those articles. I found that the drpodell (http://www.drpodell.org/chronic_fatigue_syndrome_treatments.shtml) link is useful for see what others in medicine have found successful.

  I have to make a correction to some of my previous post. I previously stated that all herpes viruses can establish latency in neurons. I am learning that HHV-(5,6) fit into a subclass of herpes viruses called Beta-herpesvirinae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betaherpesvirinae#Life_cycle). CMV (HHV-5) establish latency in Epithelial mucosa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucous_membrane) and HHV-6 establishes latency in certain white blood cells (T-cells, B-cells, NK-cell, monocytes, macrophages) and epithelial cells.

  HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV are in the sub class Alpha-herpesvirinae, and these are the viruses that are latent in neurons. EBV (HHV-4) establishes latency in B-cells of the immune system Ref (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epstein-Barr_virus#Latency).

Hey Nanna,
In this case aren't HSV-1, HSV-2 and VZV curable by acyclovir ?
I personally did not have any success with this medication.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on July 05, 2018, 10:43:25 PM
  Thanks Hopeoneday for sharing those articles. I found that the drpodell (http://www.drpodell.org/chronic_fatigue_syndrome_treatments.shtml) link is useful for see what others in medicine have found successful.

  I have to make a correction to some of my previous post. I previously stated that all herpes viruses can establish latency in neurons. I am learning that HHV-(5,6) fit into a subclass of herpes viruses called Beta-herpesvirinae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betaherpesvirinae#Life_cycle). CMV (HHV-5) establish latency in Epithelial mucosa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucous_membrane) and HHV-6 establishes latency in certain white blood cells (T-cells, B-cells, NK-cell, monocytes, macrophages) and epithelial cells.

  HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV are in the sub class Alpha-herpesvirinae, and these are the viruses that are latent in neurons. EBV (HHV-4) establishes latency in B-cells of the immune system Ref (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epstein-Barr_virus#Latency).

Hey Nanna,
In this case aren't HSV-1, HSV-2 and VZV curable by acyclovir ?
I personally did not have any success with this medication.

Hey Nas,

Thanks for your question and for sharing your experience. HSV-(1,2) and VZV are not curable by acyclovir, and acyclovir cannot stop these viruses from up-regulating inflammatory genes like NF-kB and cytokines while latent.

  I think you were probably referring to the fact that acyclovir is used as a standard treatment for HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV. I agree with you that acyclovir is commonly used to treat these viruses. The role of antivirals is to prevent DNA replication of the virus. If the virus start to replicate, then the immune system will detect it and attack (POIS? maybe?).

  However, if our goal is to disprove the 2nd part of the hypothesis in my previous post, I think an important step would be to obtain virus IgG antibody test like the ones posted here (see section 4. Virus and bacteria test abnormal) (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039). It is difficult to discuss the meaning of antiviral test until the virus test results are known. Also, to disprove the 2nd part of the hypothesis we may need to be more creative than merely taking acyclovir. This antiviral is not effective against EBV, CMV, HHV-6, and there is the potential for drug resistance with long-term use.

  I have attached the paper again related to the 1st part of the hypothesis. I am trying to figure out why the woman in the paper does not have an immune response (POIS). She clearly has a broken blood-brain-barrier. Her aneurysm is huge. Her O sends her to the hospital!!! Why is she protected from getting POIS? Is it the location of the brain aneurysm? Is it her female hormones (progesterone cycle, birth control, pregnancy, etc...)? Is it that she doesn't have any infections in her brain area? It is an interest case study indeed.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on July 05, 2018, 11:45:56 PM
  Thanks Hopeoneday for sharing those articles. I found that the drpodell (http://www.drpodell.org/chronic_fatigue_syndrome_treatments.shtml) link is useful for see what others in medicine have found successful.

  I have to make a correction to some of my previous post. I previously stated that all herpes viruses can establish latency in neurons. I am learning that HHV-(5,6) fit into a subclass of herpes viruses called Beta-herpesvirinae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betaherpesvirinae#Life_cycle). CMV (HHV-5) establish latency in Epithelial mucosa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucous_membrane) and HHV-6 establishes latency in certain white blood cells (T-cells, B-cells, NK-cell, monocytes, macrophages) and epithelial cells.

  HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV are in the sub class Alpha-herpesvirinae, and these are the viruses that are latent in neurons. EBV (HHV-4) establishes latency in B-cells of the immune system Ref (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epstein-Barr_virus#Latency).

Hey Nanna,
In this case aren't HSV-1, HSV-2 and VZV curable by acyclovir ?
I personally did not have any success with this medication.

Hey Nas,

Thanks for your question and for sharing your experience. HSV-(1,2) and VZV are not curable by acyclovir, and acyclovir cannot stop these viruses from up-regulating inflammatory genes like NF-kB and cytokines while latent.

  I think you were probably referring to the fact that acyclovir is used as a standard treatment for HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV. I agree with you that acyclovir is commonly used to treat these viruses. The role of antivirals is to prevent DNA replication of the virus. If the virus start to replicate, then the immune system will detect it and attack (POIS? maybe?).

  However, if our goal is to disprove the 2nd part of the hypothesis in my previous post, I think an important step would be to obtain virus IgG antibody test like the ones posted here (see section 4. Virus and bacteria test abnormal) (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039). It is difficult to discuss the meaning of antiviral test until the virus test results are known. Also, to disprove the 2nd part of the hypothesis we may need to be more creative than taking acyclovir. This antiviral is not effective against EBV, CMV, HHV-6, and there is the potential for drug resistance with long-term use. Is there another way to see a potential effect of viral activation during POIS? Or is there a parameter/effect that must be present in viral activation, but is not present in POIS?

  I have attached the paper again related to the 1st part of the hypothesis. I am trying to figure out why this lady does not have an immune response (POIS). She clearly has a broken blood-brain-barrier. Her aneurysm is huge. Her O sends her to the hospital!!! Why is she protected from getting POIS? Is it the location of the brain aneurysm? Is it her female hormones? Is it that she doesn't have any infections in her brain area? It is an interest case study.

Hmmm, well according to the Endothelial theory ejaculation is what causes POIS and not orgasm, so it could be a case where components in female squirt are different and thus have a different effect than male semen?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on July 11, 2018, 04:10:42 AM
  Below is some ideas that I have been working on base on my medical test results (angiogram-MRI, VZV, CMV, HHV-6) (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039) and the test results of others (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0).

Betaherpesvirinae dependent POIS
"Furthermore, angioplasty-induced injury to the vessel wall and reperfusion after balloon angioplasty produce ROS8 and cytokines. The resulting activation of NF-kB can in turn stimulate the MIEP present in latently infected cells and thereby contribute to reactivation of latent CMV...Recent studies have shown that CMV infection of human cells leads to stimulation of arachidonic acid (AA) release." -Aspirin Attenuates Cytomegalovirus Infectivity and Gene Expression Mediated by Cyclooxygenase-2 in Coronary Artery Smooth Muscle Cells (1998)

  Cytomegalovirus (CMV, HHV-5) and HHV-6 are Betaherpesvirinae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betaherpesvirinae) that primarily latently infect endothelial cells such as blood vessels and epithelial mucosa such as intestinal epithelia (Ref (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betaherpesvirinae)). This is unlike alpha-herpes viruses (HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV) which primarily latently infect neurons. Within minutes of infecting endothelial cells CMV upregulates reactive oxygen species (H2O2), NF-kB, COX-2 and cytokines (RefSE (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9686761)). These Betaherpesvirinae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betaherpesvirinae) maintain this inflammatory environment while latent.

"These results suggest that infection by CMV or HHV-6 causes vascular endothelial injury, with HHV-6 having a stronger effect than CMV, and combined infection having a stronger effect than either virus alone."
-Endothelial damage caused by cytomegalovirus and human herpesvirus-6 (2003)

  CMV (and HHV-6) latency within endothelial cells leads to injury of vascular and smooth muscle tissue (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12665843), Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15505098)). Stretching this injured tissue causes a stress response of free radical production (RefGR (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8546077)) leading to reactivation and replication of the virus (RefSE (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9686761)). The reponse of the immune system to this virus replication is POIS.

"Enhancement of promoter activity by endogenous catecholamines is essential for high-level transgene expression from MIECMV within the vasculature." -Beta-Adrenoceptor Blockade Markedly Attenuates Transgene Expression From Cytomegalovirus Promoters Within the Cardiovascular System

  During orgasm there is a sudden rise in norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and epinephrine (adrenaline).
(https://i.imgur.com/43RWkMg.png)
  This norepinephrine (and epinephrine) causes vasodilation via the beta2-adrenergic receptor of the arteries in the brain and through out the body. This vasodilation is a ballooning stress on the arteries that is normal under certain temporary conditions such as orgasm or exercise where increased blood flow is needed in certain areas of the body. However, any arteries that have been injured by latent infection of CMV (or HHV-6) will be triggered by this stretching stress to reactivate the virus (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9686761)) causing an immune response. Norepinephrine levels may fall shortly after orgasm. However, because of the immune response to reactivated CMV, histamine and nitric oxide levels rise causing a secondary vasodilation (stretching) of the arteries.

Eating induced POIS-related/POIS-like symptoms:
  This is of course just a hypothesis. Betaherpesvirae like CMV can infect and establish latency in intestinal epithelia (Ref (http://jvi.asm.org/content/74/1/513.full)). If the intestinal epithelia are infected by CMV (and/or HHV-6) at a certain location, food passing through the stomach can stretch the intestines at the location of the infection and causing stress-reactivation of the virus. This passing food would, by stretching that part of the intestine induce an immune response leading to either local irritable bowel syndrome or systemic inflammation. This effect may lead people to think that specific foods are causing their IBS when it is just over eating. If there is a food that you really like or has MSG in it, you may be more inclined to over-eat. The MSG has nothing to do with the IBS. It is the inability to know when to stop eating that is causing the IBS/inflammation. Again, this is a hypothesis.

With all that said, I found out this about varicella zoster virus:
"Upon reactivation, varicella zoster virus (VZV) spreads transaxonally, infects cerebral arteries and causes ischemic or hemorrhagic stroke, as well as aneurysms. The mechanism(s) of VZV-induced aneurysm formation is unknown. However, matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs), which digest extracellular structural proteins in the artery wall, play a role in cerebral and aortic artery aneurysm formation and rupture." -Differential regulation of matrix metalloproteinases in varicella zoster virus-infected human brain vascular adventitial fibroblasts
In general, the alphaherpesvirusae (HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV) upregulate matrix metalloproteinases and cause collagen break down. So the line for which viruses infect the vasculature is very blurry.

  Also, there is also another thread discussing vasculature related issues at Ideas on Endothelial Dysfunction (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2731.0). There they discuss alternative explanations for endothelial and collagen abnormalities that may explain POIS and general inflammation. I think this diversity of ideas is good for the POIS community. But there is a need for more people to be virus tested to be able to rule out or statistically correlate viruses as a cause of POIS.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on July 11, 2018, 06:08:44 AM
So what you are saying is that there is a second wave of vasodilation mediated by viral replication. Shouldn't vasoconstrictors/beta blockers work for POIS then? Prevent the first wave of vasodilation triggered by catecholamines to avoid viral replication.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on July 11, 2018, 06:22:02 AM
So what you are saying is that there is a second wave of vasodilation mediated by viral replication. Shouldn't vasoconstrictors/beta blockers work for POIS then? Prevent the first wave of vasodilation triggered by catecholamines to avoid viral replication.

Any suggestions for a vasoconstrictor drug, Muon? There doesn't seem to be many of them available in pharmacies.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: FernandoPOIS on July 11, 2018, 08:26:34 AM
NAS

I think coffee is a good option. It activates the central nervous system and is still a cholinesterase inhibitor. For some members of the forum green tea has worked, I believe it is due to the effect of caffeine.
For me, coffee greatly improves my mood, but I try to take it only in more extreme cases not to get too excited.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on July 11, 2018, 10:49:57 AM
So what you are saying is that there is a second wave of vasodilation mediated by viral replication. Shouldn't vasoconstrictors/beta blockers work for POIS then? Prevent the first wave of vasodilation triggered by catecholamines to avoid viral replication.

Yes that is correct Muon, 2 phases vasodilation and blocking it should block POIS! I actual did a trial of Excedrin (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg24507#msg24507) (migraine headache medicine) to test the vasoconstriction hypothesis I mentioned earlier before writing the above post (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24500#msg24500).
So I am wonder if POIS requires:
1. vasodilation of a damaged blood vessel in the brain
2. a triggerable virus that induces systemic immune response/chemotaxis

Can someone disprove this hypothesis or show where it is lacking?
For example:
1. Can vasocontriction of blood vessels in the brain stop POIS?
2. Can inhibition of virus replication stop POIS?
I believe that orgasm releases vasodilators noradrenaline, adrenaline of the peripheral and central nervous system and also glutamate of the central nervous system. If the tissue that the virus infects is injured, there is an inflammatory stress response (NF-kB, COX, etc...) associated with the vasodilation (vascular stretching). In the second phase, the epithelia is reinjured by the immune system fighting the virus (vasodilation (histamine, NO) and chemotaxis (chemokines, IL-8, etc...)). In principle, Beta2-blockers could help block POIS in the periphery, but it would not stop glutamate induced vasodilation in the brain. Glutamate release is required for orgasm for all healthy individuals.

  Also, I have to add that HSV-1, VZV, and EBV could have different mechanisms with different symptoms. Because I don't have an HSV-1 infection, someone with HSV-1 could have additional symptoms and experiences that do not correlate with my own. But in all of the herpes viruses, herpes latency connects neurotransmitter receptors to the inflammatory cascades (NF-kB, COX, etc...).

NAS

I think coffee is a good option. It activates the central nervous system and is still a cholinesterase inhibitor. For some members of the forum green tea has worked, I believe it is due to the effect of caffeine.
For me, coffee greatly improves my mood, but I try to take it only in more extreme cases not to get too excited.
I tried caffeine as part of an Excedrin (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg24507#msg24507) trial before writing the previous post.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Hopeoneday on July 11, 2018, 04:51:17 PM
Well i remeber times when i was in enormes stress, and i didnt know what stres is at all, andrenal fatigue and of course POIS. I thouse times aded 1 cup of cofee on all thouse body conditions was devastating on me. On hi adrenaline and cortisol you put cofee bevarages in and you will be crashed!
Today when my health is  big damaged from pois , cofee is good stuff from clearing fatigue and brain fog for couple of hours when i out of pois days.
But if you are damaged from pois, and ewan out of pois-hawing cofee on sewere stifed muscules, respiratory colapsing, impaired digestion, insomnia, pots etc- i do not think that is smart idea for cofee in those moments.

Guys, togedther we can beat this sxeaty illnes.
Nana thanks for your testing you done, that is the only whey and only our chance.
To focus more and more and focus as much is posible to eliminate posible couses one by one.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on July 11, 2018, 05:30:30 PM
Hi nanna,

If (vascular/lymphatic) endothelial cells are being activated in this process then you could check for Weibel-Palade bodies in serum like IL-8, vWF, P-selectin etc. If you have high levels of these you could check for VEGF next: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15345585

If there is mast cell activation present then endothelial cells will probably be affected, high concentrations are close to the endothelium.
This could explain (see figure 3 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3217344/  )
-Your low neutrophil levels due to extravasation.
-My low CD57 NK cells due to the same mechanism.
-Decreased levels of leukocytes levels seen in members of my family
Activation of endothelial cells due to VEGF release of mast cells, could explain my IL-8
This could also explain elevated Lp-PLA2 levels seen in my brother http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/17/2041.full

So the point I want to make is that mast cells may be responsible for vascular problems. A Negative tryptase result does not rule out mast cell activation, it does rule out mastocytosis.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: certainlypois2 on July 13, 2018, 04:32:27 PM
is there  a way to block glutamate induced vasodilation. Based on this theory is msg a problem and how about exercise aerobics and weight lifting.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on July 19, 2018, 10:35:59 PM
Hi certainlypois2,

I wouldn't think MSG would be a problem. The amount of MSG in food is usually small compared to the amount of glutamate and glutamine. I added a Betaherpesvirinae stack (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg21497#msg21497). I tried to target the CMV/HHV-5 activation mechanism discussed in "Aspirin attenuates cytomegalovirus infectivity and gene expression mediated by cyclooxygenase-2 in coronary artery smooth muscle cells. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9686761)". This stack only inhibits the norepinephrine induced vasodilation through COX/PGE2.

  Glutamate induces vasodilation through nitric oxide (NO) (Ref (http://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/pharmrev/63/4/811.full.pdf)). Methylene blue can inhibit nitric oxide induced vasodilation. But I'm not sure what the best option is for reducing this effect. I haven't tested methylene blue for this purpose. Someone would have to make sure that methylene blue doesn't have some other effect that activates the virus independent of it's NMDA inhibiting effects. Maybe there is a better glutamate-induced NO inhibitor for this.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Quantum on July 20, 2018, 09:31:52 AM
  Glutamate induces vasodilation through nitric oxide (NO) (Ref (http://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/pharmrev/63/4/811.full.pdf)). Methylene blue can inhibit nitric oxide induced vasodilation. But I'm not sure what the best option is for reducing this effect. I haven't tested methylene blue for this purpose. Someone would have to make sure that methylene blue doesn't have some other effect that activates the virus independent of it's NMDA inhibiting effects. Maybe there is a better glutamate-induced NO inhibitor for this.

Hi Nanna, and everyone,

Just a word of caution, here, about methylene blue.  Methylene blue is a very potent monoamine oxidase inhibitor.   This means that is has a high potential for severe drug interactions, in particular with antidepressant drugs.  Methylene blue also interact with tyramine containing food, just like the old MAOI antidepressant drugs.  Anyone willing to try methylene blue should consult with a health professional beforehand.

You can find more information in this thread:  http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1551.msg14569#msg14569 , and http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1551.msg14553#msg14553

Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on July 20, 2018, 08:34:08 PM
Thanks Quantum!  :)

Hi certainlypois2,

  I don't know how feasible a NMDA block will be because glutamate is required for orgasm and nitric oxide (NO) is require for erection (Ref). But it may not matter. The article on cytomegalovirus (HHV-5) CMV reactivation from vascular tissue (RefSE2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9686761)) mentions that vascular stretching (i.e. vasodilation) of infected tissue is just one way to activate NF-kB and COX/PGE2. But ultimately, it is NF-kB and COX/PGE2 that cause the virus to reactivate. They inhibited CMV reactivation with COX inhibitors aspirin and indomethacin. This same research group in another study showed that anti-oxidants can inhibit NF-kB induced CMV reactivation.
(http://circres.ahajournals.org/content/circresaha/79/6/1143/F5.large.jpg)
Figure 5: "N-acetylcysteine (NAC) treatment decreases viral titer of infected coronary smooth muscle cells (SMC). The effect of NAC on viral titer is concentration dependent. Shown are virus yields per milliliter of a 10% SMC homogenate and cell counts from parallel cultures at 96 hours after infection (mean of three experiments)." from RefSE1 (http://circres.ahajournals.org/content/79/6/1143.long)
HCMV = human cytomegalovirus

   They found that anti-oxidants that decreased superoxide (O2-) and hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) also decreased the amount of CMV virus in a linear concentration fashion. So this could be a way of inhibiting viral reactivation even when there is vascular stretching. As long as the stretching of the infection-injured tissue does not activate NF-kB and produce prostaglandins, (1) the virus should not replicate and (2) the immune response should not induce POIS. The paper (RefSE1 (http://circres.ahajournals.org/content/79/6/1143.long)) is very thorough in demonstrating the first point (1).

  I remember Swell posted his glutathione stack (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg24091#msg24091) which was effective for a while, but stopped working for him. That might be worth revisiting, and seeing how anti-oxidants with selenium might compare to N-acetylcysteine.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: certainlypois2 on July 21, 2018, 01:31:09 AM
Thanks.  Did you remove B1 from your stack because of CLA. It also blocks expression of transcription factors NF-kB and and monocytes adhesion to endothelial cells.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3249497/

Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on July 22, 2018, 06:52:50 PM
Thanks.  Did you remove B1 from your stack because of CLA. It also blocks expression of transcription factors NF-kB and and monocytes adhesion to endothelial cells.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3249497/
Hi Certainlypois2,

  You are correct that Benfotiamine (vitamin B1) downregulates the expression of inflammatory genes. About 2 to 3 years ago I remember people discussing on a forum how high-dose thiamine helped their POIS symptoms. So I tried thiamine then Benfotiamine. When I first started Benfotiamine, I believed that it produced a noticeable improvement in POIS symptoms. It was not an instant prepack improvement. It took a few days of constant supplementation.

 I lost my bottle of B1 a few months ago, but I noticed that I still don't have and POIS symptoms on my diet-stack. I broke my diet and my stack for blood test and supplement test several times. And when I resumed my diet-stack without B1 I still get full relief. This all occurred after I started taking CLA. I do still take some omega-3 (700mg not everyday) for general health, but not as much as I used to take for POIS. I think everyone should take omega-3 even if you don't have POIS because of the many health benefits. B1 is also good for general health, but I realize that many of us have spent a large amount of money on medical bills and trying supplements, so I try to reduce the number of supplements to the fewest possible to see POIS relief. But if others find that B1 is necessary then I will gladly add it back.

  But I'm not sure if CLA compensated of B1, or if B1 stopped working, or if something in my diet compensated for it, or if B1 ever did work (placebo?). I haven't properly tested all these scenarios but I suspect you are right about CLA. Good question Certainlypois2! If POIS is caused by herpes infections, then the effect of these stacks will be virus specific. CLA might be more effective against CMV than HSV-1, because CMV is dependent on long-chain fatty acids and CLA helps to burn fatty acids. Someone with a HSV-1 induced disease may not find CLA as effective as I do.

  Also, thanks for posting the link on Benfotiamine and NF-kB / arachidonic acid cascade. It has some good info.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: swell on July 23, 2018, 07:23:46 PM
Nanna1 it would be helpful if you can take up the Glutathione GSH stack.  I am now convinced that my POIS is virus related.  My mental fog did not let me realize my Bells Palsy gets triggered with POIS and recovers in 7 days so directly correlates with POIS.  And bells palsy is known to be due to virus.   What I read is that only way to combat EBV/HPV etc is to strengthen immune system that there is no good medicine except anti-retrovirals which are not advisable?.  Now I realize that liposomal GSH is still helping me, maybe not fully as I like it to be.  It is known to strenghten a weak immune system that I think is its main function benefit.  My big POIS complaints are:

mental fog:  Adderall I take, beats the heck out of fog so I cannot include fog as a criteria, but listing it anyway.
skin growth all over body:  skin changes its characteristics as if there is systemic uticaria all over.   GSH is still managing it today somewhat maybe 30%. 
I feel as if some pointy growth in inside of eyelids:  I used to be in great discomfort constantly putting eye washes.  Eye lashes break and sit in eyes during pois period.  GSH is today managing it 80%.
very pale skin:  GSH is today managing it 30%
bells palsy:  GSH cured it for 2 months, but minimally effective now.
speech slurring: GSH again cured it for 2 months but mimimally effective now.
emotional symptoms:  GSH for 2 months worked but mimimally effective now. 

I think you and others with chemistry know how (not doctors) can tweak the stack, and maybe as you suggest that is the solution to POIS.

 
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: swell on July 23, 2018, 09:08:39 PM
So to date there is no systemic treatment for these viruses HPV/EBV etc.   I found one research which led me to:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5344427/

The medicine they point to:
https://www.buy-gene-eden.com/index.php

contains amazingly simple chemicals: quercetin 100 mg, green tea extract 150 mg, cinnamon extract 50 mg, selenium 100 mcg, and licorice extract 25 mg.  They talk about a patented delivery formula.  I suspect the delivery mechanism will be 'serrapeptase' enzyme, I think since that is only compound I know that can dissolve the protective films that virus built around them exposing them.  Any ideas on this one?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on July 24, 2018, 02:01:41 AM
Hi Swell,

  I agree that strengthening the immune system will benefit anyone with POIS. It seems that most of the supplements/herbs/vitamins/minerals that people take for POIS have immune boosting properties. I don't have all the answers on antioxidants, but I can share what I know and hopefully others will share what they know. I think that there are three rate limiting ingredients for glutathione production, selenomethionine, N-acetylcysteine (NAC), and glycine. Sorry I can't find the references. Selenomethionine is needed to produce all the glutathione recycling enzymes, glutathione peroxidase (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutathione_peroxidase#Structure). And I guess you already know why N-acetylcysteine (NAC) is important glutathione production. But check out Table 1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3044191/table/t1-0360078/?report=objectonly) from "N-acetylcysteine in psychiatry: current therapeutic evidence and potential mechanisms of action (2011) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3044191/)". This will give you a feel for the dosage of NAC you will need. In disease models, glycine increases glutathoine (RefRREH (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23742196)). Tri-methyl-glycine (TMG, betaine) has much higher bioavailability than L-glycine. Also, TMG may be less toxic to the brain.

  For herpes, I would not take glutamine since herpes viruses seem to like glutamine just as much as they like glucose. I haven't seen any evidence that glutamine increases glutathione production in humans. It doesn't seem to be rate-limiting. I'm not sure what type of glutathione you are taking, but I would compare it's bioavailability to that of NAC (Table 5 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4536296/table/t0025/)).

Foods like garlic, onions, broccoli, cauliflower, and capers are good glutathione boosters.

  Also it might be good to think carefully about the redox cycle. Electrons flow from negative (NADH) to positive (oxygen) volts. Click below images to see full size.
(https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Sudesh_Vasdev/publication/51424560/figure/tbl1/AS:393924427436034@1470930310281/Redox-potentials-of-antioxidants-in-mammalian-oxidation-systems-redox-pairs-are-given-at.png)
Above figure from: Modulation of oxidative stress-induced changes in hypertension and atherosclerosis by antioxidants
 NADH (and NADPH) recycle glutathione levels. (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51424560_Modulation_of_oxidative_stress-induced_changes_in_hypertension_and_atherosclerosis_by_antioxidants?_sg=RJS2rRUd_yNDlTNccA_9MigSuH0r00re5HoSN0Zsa6PKElab4Ulty4JpIRXdGGZAXEEFYikLRA)
(http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/plantphysiol/155/1/2/F1.large.jpg)
Above figure from: Ascorbate and Glutathione: The Heart of the Redox Hub (http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/155/1/2). Also see Figure 2 (https://academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/111938775/4w03u1402002.jpeg) from Molecular Aspects of a-Tocotrienol Antioxidant Action and Cell Signalling (https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/131/2/369S/4686922).

  However, herpes viruses deplete NAD+ and NADH levels (RefGS (http://jvi.asm.org/content/86/15/8259.long), RefVR (http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1002124)). If a virus is causing your POIS, low NADH levels in infected cells could prevent glutathione from working/recycling. A virus IgG test would help you know better what is going on. This is what I know about glutathione. Hopefully, others can contribute their knowledge.

  It may be worth looking into finding a xanthine oxidase (XO) inhibitor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthine_oxidase_inhibitor). I wrote about XO here (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23769#msg23769). There is a cascade of inflammatory events:
1. Some herpes viruses (and influenza virus (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2155924), and HIV (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20084375)) upregulate XO to increase superoxide (O2-).
2. Superoxide is then used by the other oxidative enzymes (COX-2, IDO, etc...) to oxidize substrates (arachidonic acid, tryptophan, etc...)
3. This produces (PGE2, kynurenine) and peroxide (H2O2)
4. H2O2 activates NF-kB
5. chronically elevated NF-kB causes problems
In other words, blocking the activity of XO and/or the production of superoxide will dramatically reduce the activity of all the other oxidative enzymes and NF-kB.

  Thanks Swell for sharing that link on permanent virus clearance. I'll look into it. I also have been working on a strategy to remove the virus permanently. See Intravenous Vitamin C trial (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23777#msg23777) at the bottom of the Potential NORD and NIH grant ideas post. The science behind this approach can be found here "Long-term herpes relief and permanent virus removal strategies (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23776#msg23776)".
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: POISse on July 25, 2018, 02:48:15 PM
Hi everyone,

I have been using indomethacin for more than a month and I wanted to share my experience.

I started researching about indomethacin after one of nanna1's post on this thread. Interrestingly, I had most of the symptoms related to emicrania continua right after O: unilateral pain, conjonctival injection, nasal congestion, ptosis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemicrania_continua).

I tried to take it at different time but the best results I had so far was between 2 to 3 hours before O. I am using 75mg indomethacin one time per day for 1 to 2 days after O.

Regarding the effects: I have less trouble speaking, my mind is clearer, general feeling is much better. I still have fatigue the day after O. I stopped using mytelase due to the bad side effetcs and good results with indometacin. It seems to be also efficient for CFS related symtoms. 

Note: I had bad side effects in the begining around the left ear and indomethacin can harm your eardrums and cause ulcers, ask your GP before using it,

Thank you nanna1 for your post.

Cheers,

POISse
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on July 26, 2018, 09:28:57 PM
Hey everyone,
So I just did another round of vasoconstrictor treatment, I tried: Propanolol 10mg, Indomethacin 50mg, Paracetamol 1000mg, Aspirin 100mg, Caffeine 30mg, Pseudoephedrine 30mg, Chloropheniramine Maleate 4mg. I masturbated after 30 minutes of intake. 
I'm currently writing with still brain fog and general cognitive symptoms, I just can't seem to get rid of them. I don't know about time to heal but it'll probably be reduced.
*sigh* If let's say I'm constricting my blood vessels to reduce permeability, it doesn't seem to be enough to guarantee that I won't have brain symptoms; what ever it is that is getting inside of my brain and causing this inflammatory reaction, I need to find a better way to stop it.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on July 27, 2018, 05:05:48 AM
Hi everyone,

I have been using indomethacin for more than a month and I wanted to share my experience.

I started researching about indomethacin after one of nanna1's post on this thread. Interrestingly, I had most of the symptoms related to emicrania continua right after O: unilateral pain, conjonctival injection, nasal congestion, ptosis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemicrania_continua).

I tried to take it at different time but the best results I had so far was between 2 to 3 hours before O. I am using 75mg indomethacin one time per day for 1 to 2 days after O.

Regarding the effects: I have less trouble speaking, my mind is clearer, general feeling is much better. I still have fatigue the day after O. I stopped using mytelase due to the bad side effetcs and good results with indometacin. It seems to be also efficient for CFS related symtoms. 

Note: I had bad side effects in the begining around the left ear and indomethacin can harm your eardrums and cause ulcers, ask your GP before using it,

Thank you nanna1 for your post.

Cheers,

POISse

  Thanks POISse for sharing your experience. I'm glad you were able to find some relief! I appreciate that you found out the pre-O timing for the dose. When I did my trial, I just took the doctor's word for the timing, but my doctor was wrong. After you posted this I went to look up the pharmakinetics, and here is what Merck says:
"Following single oral doses of Capsules INDOCIN 25 mg or 50 mg, indomethacin is readily absorbed,
attaining peak plasma concentrations of about 1 and 2 mcg/mL, respectively, at about 2 hours.
" (page 2, paragraph 7 (https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2007/016059s097,017814s040,018332s030lbl.pdf))

  As you mentioned, one of the side-effects of indomethacin is that with long-term daily use it can produce ulcers (due to being oxidized/broken-down in the stomach). However, I found some information on selenium and N-acetylcysteine that should help reduce the side-effects from daily indomethacin. One study found that selenium could help prevent and heal indomethacin ulcers "Curative effect of selenium against indomethacin-induced gastric ulcers in rats. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21532324)"
(https://i.imgur.com/wscBGiA.png)

N-acetylcysteine also prevented indomethacin side-effects:
-N-acetylcysteine a possible protector against indomethacin-induced peptic ulcer: crosstalk between antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, and antiapoptotic mechanisms (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28092180)
-The Gastrprotective Effect of N-acetylcysteine and Genistein in Indomethacin-Induced Gastric Injury in Rats. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30011378)

For an indomethacin dose of 50mg, that would translate to:
-selenomethionine: 100 micrograms (in Fig. 3 above: the 50 ug/kg bar)
-N-acetylcysteine (NAC): 600 mg

Please keep us updated on any other things you find out (successes, failures, tips, etc...).

  For anyone who is interested, my indomethacin trial is posted here http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23773#msg23773
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: BluesBrother on July 27, 2018, 02:51:26 PM

  During orgasm there is a sudden rise in norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and epinephrine (adrenaline). This norepinephrine (and epinephrine) can cause vasodilation via the beta2-adrenergic receptor of the arteries in the brain and through out the body. Vasodilation creates a ballooning stress on the arteries that is normal under certain temporary conditions such as orgasm or exercise where increased blood flow is needed in certain areas of the body. However, any arteries that have been injured by latent infection of CMV (or HHV-6) will be triggered by this stretching stress to reactivate the virus (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9686761)) causing an immune response. Norepinephrine levels may fall shortly after orgasm. However, because of the immune response to reactivated CMV, histamine and nitric oxide levels rise causing a secondary vasodilation (stretching) of the arteries.


Could it be that the injured arteries are located in the reproductive tract, and that it is the stretching stress during ejaculation which triggers the immune response?

I am asking this also because of the following observations:
- I feel that my POIS symptoms are positively correlated to the strength of pulsing of the penis during ejaculation. Maybe stronger pulsing corresponds to more stress on the arteries?
- I once had blood in my urine (after an intense run) at a time where I did not yet have POIS (at the age of 12, I think, whereas POIS emerged around the age of 18). Could this blood in the urine be related to a fracture of arteries, predisposing me for developing immune reactions in response to stress on the arteries during ejaculation?

(Maybe my questions are completely off - my understanding of biology is not very developed.)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on July 27, 2018, 07:08:39 PM

  During orgasm there is a sudden rise in norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and epinephrine (adrenaline). This norepinephrine (and epinephrine) can cause vasodilation via the beta2-adrenergic receptor of the arteries in the brain and through out the body. Vasodilation creates a ballooning stress on the arteries that is normal under certain temporary conditions such as orgasm or exercise where increased blood flow is needed in certain areas of the body. However, any arteries that have been injured by latent infection of CMV (or HHV-6) will be triggered by this stretching stress to reactivate the virus (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9686761)) causing an immune response. Norepinephrine levels may fall shortly after orgasm. However, because of the immune response to reactivated CMV, histamine and nitric oxide levels rise causing a secondary vasodilation (stretching) of the arteries.


Could it be that the injured arteries are located in the reproductive tract, and that it is the stretching stress during ejaculation which triggers the immune response?

I am asking this also because of the following observations:
- I feel that my POIS symptoms are positively correlated to the strength of pulsing of the penis during ejaculation. Maybe stronger pulsing corresponds to more stress on the arteries?
- I once had blood in my urine (after an intense run) at a time where I did not yet have POIS (at the age of 12, I think, whereas POIS emerged around the age of 18). Could this blood in the urine be related to a fracture of arteries, predisposing me for developing immune reactions in response to stress on the arteries during ejaculation?

(Maybe my questions are completely off - my understanding of biology is not very developed.)

Hmmm, either injury in the arteries or the urethra; there is definitely a leak in there and that leak causes the immune system to attack the stuck sperms in the urethra or that the semen actually inters the blood which causes the immune reaction?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: swell on July 28, 2018, 07:59:46 PM
Thank you nanna1.  I was reading through this, did not understand whether taking copper with glutathione is useful
or harmful?  It says I think that Copper binds with Herpes virus, and glutathione inhibits Copper. 
a) I am taking 70% of daily value of Copper as a supplement, is that sufficient.
b)  I take both Liposomal Glutathione 500mg as well NAC extended release 600 mg from Jarrow, and 100% DV Selenomethione 

Hi Swell,

  I agree that strengthening the immune system will benefit anyone with POIS. It seems that most of the supplements/herbs/vitamins/minerals that people take for POIS have immune boosting properties. I don't have all the answers on antioxidants, but I can share what I know and hopefully others will share what they know. I think that there are three rate limiting ingredients for glutathione production, selenomethionine, N-acetylcysteine (NAC), and glycine. Sorry I can't find the references. Selenomethionine is needed to produce all the glutathione recycling enzymes, glutathione peroxidase (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutathione_peroxidase#Structure). And I guess you already know why N-acetylcysteine (NAC) is important glutathione production. But check out Table 1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3044191/table/t1-0360078/?report=objectonly) from "N-acetylcysteine in psychiatry: current therapeutic evidence and potential mechanisms of action (2011) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3044191/)". This will give you a feel for the dosage of NAC you will need. In disease models, glycine increases glutathoine (RefRREH (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23742196)). Tri-methyl-glycine (TMG, betaine) has much higher bioavailability than L-glycine. Also, TMG may be less toxic to the brain.

  For herpes, I would not take glutamine since herpes viruses seem to like glutamine just as much as they like glucose. I haven't seen any evidence that glutamine increases glutathione production in humans. It doesn't seem to be rate-limiting. I'm not sure what type of glutathione you are taking, but I would compare it's bioavailability to that of NAC (Table 5 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4536296/table/t0025/)).

Foods like garlic, onions, broccoli, cauliflower, and capers are good glutathione boosters.

  Also it might be good to think carefully about the redox cycle. Electrons flow from negative (NADH) to positive (oxygen) volts. Click below images to see full size.
(https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Sudesh_Vasdev/publication/51424560/figure/tbl1/AS:393924427436034@1470930310281/Redox-potentials-of-antioxidants-in-mammalian-oxidation-systems-redox-pairs-are-given-at.png)
Above figure from: Modulation of oxidative stress-induced changes in hypertension and atherosclerosis by antioxidants
 NADH (and NADPH) recycle glutathione levels. (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51424560_Modulation_of_oxidative_stress-induced_changes_in_hypertension_and_atherosclerosis_by_antioxidants?_sg=RJS2rRUd_yNDlTNccA_9MigSuH0r00re5HoSN0Zsa6PKElab4Ulty4JpIRXdGGZAXEEFYikLRA)
(http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/plantphysiol/155/1/2/F1.large.jpg)
Above figure from: Ascorbate and Glutathione: The Heart of the Redox Hub (http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/155/1/2). Also see Figure 2 (https://academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/111938775/4w03u1402002.jpeg) from Molecular Aspects of a-Tocotrienol Antioxidant Action and Cell Signalling (https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/131/2/369S/4686922).

  However, herpes viruses deplete NAD+ and NADH levels (RefGS (http://jvi.asm.org/content/86/15/8259.long), RefVR (http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1002124)). If a virus is causing your POIS, low NADH levels in infected cells could prevent glutathione from working/recycling. A virus IgG test would help you know better what is going on. This is what I know about glutathione. Hopefully, others can contribute their knowledge.

  It may be worth looking into finding a xanthine oxidase (XO) inhibitor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthine_oxidase_inhibitor). I wrote about XO here (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23769#msg23769). There is a cascade of inflammatory events:
1. Some herpes viruses (and influenza virus (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2155924), and HIV (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20084375)) upregulate XO to increase superoxide (O2-).
2. Superoxide is then used by the other oxidative enzymes (COX-2, IDO, etc...) to oxidize substrates (arachidonic acid, tryptophan, etc...)
3. This produces (PGE2, kynurenine) and peroxide (H2O2)
4. H2O2 activates NF-kB
5. chronically elevated NF-kB causes problems
In other words, blocking the activity of XO and/or the production of superoxide will dramatically reduce the activity of all the other oxidative enzymes and NF-kB.

  Thanks Swell for sharing that link on permanent virus clearance. I'll look into it. I also have been working on a strategy to remove the virus permanently. See Intravenous Vitamin C trial (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23777#msg23777) at the bottom of the Potential NORD and NIH grant ideas post. The science behind this approach can be found here "Long-term herpes relief and permanent virus removal strategies (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23776#msg23776)".
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on July 31, 2018, 08:57:30 AM
  During orgasm there is a sudden rise in norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and epinephrine (adrenaline). This norepinephrine (and epinephrine) can cause vasodilation via the beta2-adrenergic receptor of the arteries in the brain and through out the body. Vasodilation creates a ballooning stress on the arteries that is normal under certain temporary conditions such as orgasm or exercise where increased blood flow is needed in certain areas of the body. However, any arteries that have been injured by latent infection of CMV (or HHV-6) will be triggered by this stretching stress to reactivate the virus (RefSE2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9686761)) causing an immune response. Norepinephrine levels may fall shortly after orgasm. However, because of the immune response to reactivated CMV, histamine and nitric oxide levels rise causing a secondary vasodilation (stretching) of the arteries.
Could it be that the injured arteries are located in the reproductive tract, and that it is the stretching stress during ejaculation which triggers the immune response?

I am asking this also because of the following observations:
- I feel that my POIS symptoms are positively correlated to the strength of pulsing of the penis during ejaculation. Maybe stronger pulsing corresponds to more stress on the arteries?
- I once had blood in my urine (after an intense run) at a time where I did not yet have POIS (at the age of 12, I think, whereas POIS emerged around the age of 18). Could this blood in the urine be related to a fracture of arteries, predisposing me for developing immune reactions in response to stress on the arteries during ejaculation?

(Maybe my questions are completely off - my understanding of biology is not very developed.)
Hi BluesBrother,

   Thank you for your question and sharing your experience with stressed arteries. Your question is both relevant and informative. First I'll give some background before trying to relate the herpes-vascular-stretching paper (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9686761) to your experience. Sometimes I'm too technical I've been told so please ask questions if something isn't clear or if I have made a mistake.

  Cells use the inflammatory pathway (Arachidonic acid/COX-2/PGE2/JNK) to sense stress. Herpes also uses this same pathway to reactivate (Post (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23767#msg23767)). I used the term "stress-trigger" as a short-hand to describe anything that upregulates COX-2/PGE2. I am oversimplifying this a little since there are other prostaglandins (i.e. PGF2alpha) that can also trigger herpes reactivation. Below is a list of known herpes stress-triggers (upregulate COX-2 and JNK):
  So the stretching stress on vascular tissue is one of the known stress-triggers that reactivates CMV and HHV-6. Since not everyone with POIS smokes (nicotine) or is constantly exposed to UV light, vascular stretching seems like a more probable candidate for herpes reactivation leading to POIS. As far as I can tell, Egordon was the first person on POIScenter to propose that POIS is linked to a known orgasm-induced vascular disease (post (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=508.msg5773#msg5773)). The second person to suggest POIS is linked to a known rgasm-induced vascular disease was existentialdrifter (post (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2715.msg24154#msg24154)). (I apologize to anyone if I have miscredited these two vascular diseases.) Egordon suggested a post-coital headache (PCH) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_headache) mechanism, and Existentialdrifter suggested POIS may be related to Reversible cerebral vasoconstriction syndrome (RCVS) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_cerebral_vasoconstriction_syndrome). Both of these diseases are very similar to Post-Orgasmic Illness Syndrome. However, I think that the missing link between PCH/RCVS hypotheses and POIS is how to trigger the immune response. To address your questions/comments specifically:
- I feel that my POIS symptoms are positively correlated to the strength of pulsing of the penis during ejaculation. Maybe stronger pulsing corresponds to more stress on the arteries?
I agree with this statement. Also note that the strength of ejaculation is correlated with our heart rate and systemic blood pressure. In healthy people,
"Orgasm increased blood pressure, heart rate, plasma catecholamines and prolactin." -Endocrine response to masturbation-induced orgasm in healthy men following a 3-week sexual abstinence (Ref (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s003450100222))
During orgasm, adrenaline (epinephrine) and noradrenaline (norepinephrine) rises, which increases our heart rate and untimately our blood pressure everywhere in the body (reproductive organs, brain, etc...). So orgasm, like exercise, places a lot of physical stress on the vasculature.

- I once had blood in my urine (after an intense run) at a time where I did not yet have POIS (at the age of 12, I think, whereas POIS emerged around the age of 18). Could this blood in the urine be related to a fracture of arteries, predisposing me for developing immune reactions in response to stress on the arteries during ejaculation?
When there is damage to an artery, platelets form a clotting shield over the damaged section until growth hormones (angiogenic growth factors) and stem cells repair the vascular tissue. This happens whenever we cut our self and start to bleed, and this is normal.
(https://humanphysiology2011.wikispaces.com/file/view/blood_clot_vessel_repair.jpg/203418534/800x224/blood_clot_vessel_repair.jpg)
Figure from: Human Physiology, Hematology (link (https://humanphysiology2011.wikispaces.com/05.+Hematology))

  So I don't think damaged arteries alone predispose us to an immune response (chemotaxis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMG415YNEO0), inflammation, allergy) to stress. There are many cases where people have orgasm-induced headaches caused by aneurysms (persistent vascular damage) without a systemic immune response (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2117461/), Ref2 (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24446#msg24446)). Increased blood vessel permeability also does not induce immune response since ruptured aneurysms do not induce chemotaxis in general.

  I think that in POIS, an infection (i.e. from a virus or bacteria) is what predisposes us to a stress induce immune response (youtubevideo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=45&v=R-sKZWqsUpw)), and that infection would have to be associated with the location of the vascular/arterial injury. This happens a lot with heart surgery. The amount of immune response that a patient has after surgery depends on how sterile/clean the doctor's equipement was and the air quality (bacteria content). The location of the infection is key to the symptoms, and different locations of infection will produce different diseases (Ref (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23766#msg23766)). So if an infection caused your urinary bleeding at age 12, then there could be reason to associate it with POIS.

  Some POISsers report that their symptoms are located in their reproductive system with inflammation on their genitals. It could be that they have an infection in the genital area that is reactivated by these vascular stretching stresses during orgasm. I have never experience POIS symptoms or inflammation my in genitals, and I do not experience pain anywhere near my reproductive organs. So I do not think I personally have a POIS inducing infection in the reproductive system. 
  I had two brain MRIs which showed no damage to any brain tissue. However, I had a brain angiogram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_angiography) which may have showed a bulging blood vessel (a possible aneurysm see 11. Brain scan: (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039)). My POIS symptoms start in the area of the brain where the neurologist located this damage. So it is possible that my CMV or HHV-6 infections are at least partly in the brain vasculature and that orgasm activates one of the above herpes stress-triggers (i.e. PGE2, ROS, vascular-stretching, etc...). This is one hypothesis that maybe worth testing.

  I hope something here was useful and not patronizing. If anyone has questions, comments or corrections please let me know. I do make mistakes sometimes. Thanks again BluesBrother for sharing! :)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on July 31, 2018, 11:56:12 AM
That was a great explanation Nanna, but why does all that end up in brain symptoms? For instance, if I have an infection in my genitals then symptoms in the genitals is only logical, but to suffer from so much cognitive symptoms? That makes less seance.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: BluesBrother on July 31, 2018, 04:27:20 PM
I think that in POIS, an infection (i.e. from a virus or bacteria) is what predisposes us to a stress induce immune response (youtubevideo), and that infection would have to be associated with the location of the vascular/arterial injury. This happens a lot with heart surgery. The amount of immune response that a patient has after surgery depends on how sterile/clean the doctor's equipement was and the air quality (bacteria content). The location of the infection is key to the symptoms, and different locations of infection will produce different diseases (Ref). So if an infection caused your urinary bleeding at age 12, then there could be reason to associate it with POIS.

Hi nanna1,

thanks a lot for your explanation. What I have trouble understanding is why the particular vascular stress during ejaculation/orgasm should trigger POIS symptoms but not, for example, exercise (although there are some people who experience POIS-like symptoms after exercise).

Regarding the infection hypothesis more generally: I think I first experienced POIS after returning from a trip to Ghana, after which I had some digestive issues (some of which remain). Maybe I have caught an infection there.

Thanks again for your explanation and your effort!
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: aswinpras06 on July 31, 2018, 11:43:41 PM
Hi Bluesbrother

You might have got H-pylori infection from Ghana as you've got digestive problems.

Helicobacter pylori can also be a cause of POIS.  It can cause inflammation and disease in many parts of the body apart from the gut and has the ability to remain latent/dormant in humans forever.  It can infect the respiratory tract including sinus cavities and also can cause neural inflammation.  The gut issues,sinus issues and brain fog etc  can be due to persistent Hpylori infection which becomes active after orgasm.

Below are some links which explain H-pylori and neural problems.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4017036/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4231504/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07532-x

Many of our members have posted about this earlier and H-pylori definitely deserves a lot more of our attention.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: BluesBrother on August 01, 2018, 02:47:52 PM
You might have got H-pylori infection from Ghana as you've got digestive problems.

Hi aswinpras06,
thanks a lot for your thoughts and the links. Very interesting.

I have been tested negatively for H-pylori based on a stool sample, but the test took place more than 10 years after the visit to Ghana. Maybe it could still be possible that I had an infection back then, which did lasting damage to the brain-gut axis? Still, the question remains why ejaculation/orgasm triggers an immune response.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on August 02, 2018, 01:58:05 AM
Thank you nanna1.  I was reading through this, did not understand whether taking copper with glutathione is useful
or harmful?  It says I think that Copper binds with Herpes virus, and glutathione inhibits Copper. 
a) I am taking 70% of daily value of Copper as a supplement, is that sufficient.
b)  I take both Liposomal Glutathione 500mg as well NAC extended release 600 mg from Jarrow, and 100% DV Selenomethione 
Hi Swell,
  Copper is an essential mineral. However, the effects of copper are the exact opposite of glutathione. Copper is a pro-oxidant and glutathione is an anti-oxidant. So for what you are trying to achieve, I don't think copper will be helpful. In "Long-term herpes relief and permanent virus removal strategies (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23776#msg23776)", I describe a process where copper can selectively oxidize/cut viral RNA. But this requires excessive amounts of vitamin C only achievable by IV. Please keep posting about your antioxidant experiments!
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: aswinpras06 on August 02, 2018, 09:16:07 AM
Hi Bluesbrother

H-pylori is present in half of world population and only in a very few it causes disease. It is stated that it had been present in humans for over more than 50000 years.  Its role in human gut is still not known completely, except  that it causes peptic ulcers and gastritis.  Non-gut related infection by H-pylori is even rare, but very much possible based on recent researches. It can cause sinus issues, brain fog and the digestive problems which are mostly present in pois sufferers.

So once you are found stool negative for H-pylori it does not mean you are completely cured of it.  It can remain in other parts of the body (eg. in the respiratory tract).  Also you can get reinfected very easily from others.

For the answer for your second question why pois causes immune dysfunction, it may involve different factors and it not the same for everyone with pois.  By the way pois is not the only disease which causes immune system dysfunction there are plenty of other diseases as well like diabetes,asthma or even  stress can cause the immune defense to  malfunction. 

Many among us have have found a way of preventing this.  you can try out them and find which works for you.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on August 02, 2018, 09:25:19 AM
That was a great explanation Nanna, but why does all that end up in brain symptoms? For instance, if I have an infection in my genitals then symptoms in the genitals is only logical, but to suffer from so much cognitive symptoms? That makes less seance.
Hi Nas,
  I'm sorry for the confusion, I was talking about several different concepts in the same post. Most of the symptoms that you can feel, come from the immune system (glial, mast, white blood cells) (post (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23767#msg23767)). An infection/reactivation in the genitals will produce chemotaxis of white blood cells to the genitals and cause symptoms in the genitals. An infection/reactivation in the brain will produce chemotaxis of white blood cells to the brain and cause symptoms in the brain. Infections of the spinal cord are the exception since the spinal cord routes signals from the organs to the brain (post (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23766#msg23766), figure (https://i.imgur.com/qgOiMoW.jpg)).

  Flu-like symptoms usually have flu-like causes. Obviously this is not always true. But I just found this image from Qiagen of how the immune system responds to flu-like infections (viruses at the top of image). In the bottom left is wording that summarizes the hypothesis of POIS that I currently think is supported by our medical data and could improve how we treat the disease.
(https://i.imgur.com/h832Pj3.jpg)
Figure from QIAGEN: NF-kappaB Activation by Viruses (https://www.qiagen.com/us/shop/genes-and-pathways/pathway-details/?pwid=314)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on August 02, 2018, 09:43:34 AM
Hi BluesBrother,

What I have trouble understanding is why the particular vascular stress during ejaculation/orgasm should trigger POIS symptoms but not, for example, exercise (although there are some people who experience POIS-like symptoms after exercise).
  I am one of those people that used to have exercise-induced flu-like symptoms. But for some reason I don't have them anymore even when I am not taking my supplement stack. There are certain vascular differences between sex and exercise; penile erection being one of them. I believe that the critical area for POIS to be triggered is somewhere in the lower brain area. But in all truth, right now I think that our knowledge of the mechanisms behind POIS is limited by the lack of medical data from POISers.
 
  Currently, there is a thread where some POISers have volunteered their medical documents so that the POIS community and friends of the POIS community can carry out "crowd research" on this disease (please see Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg23787#msg23787)). This thread (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23764#msg23764) is inspired by medical data posted to the medical data thread. I have also posted my medical data (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24052#msg24052) and a description of my symptoms there. This is important, because the more POISers post there data, the more answers we can have to questions like the ones you are asking.
  One troubling habit I have noticed on several forums (POIScenter, NS, reddit/POIS) is that POISers tend to post their medical results only when there is something unusual or they test positive for some disease. I think this feeds false-positive-hypothesies of POIS. For example, it is well known that lecithin helps many POISers reduce their symptoms. This benefit of lecithin motivates those who have genetic test showing MTHFR mutations (which in some cases don't affect methylation) to post their gene profiles. Those POISers probably have a lot of other normal (negative) medical test results of other parameters that they don't share because maybe they think it was not interesting. But the normal medical results are often more important than the abnormal results. Lecithin can reduce my POIS symptoms, but my blood test show that under-methylation does not cause my POIS (see 12. Methylation/homocysteine blood test: (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039)). So even if undermethylation doesn't cause the disease, overmethylation (or some other mechanism) can help it. I did see one POISer (on reddit) with a normal MTHFR gene profile and these genes are usually redundant. This could mean that for every one person who post genetic profiles showing mutations, there could be ten or more people who don't share their genetic profile because they don't see any abnormal mutations or the results disagree with the under-methylation theory. In the scientific community, we call this Publication Bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publication_bias). I think Publication Bias is the reason years of POISer experimentation on the forums don't lead to more knowledge of what POIS is. We need normal and negative medical test results just as much as abnormal and positive results to be posted. This will not only allow us to answer questions like yours, but also develop more targeted therapies for the disease.

  In your case, you were able to rule out the possibility of H. pylori being the cause of your POIS because you tested negative for the bacteria. If you had tested positive for the bacteria, no decision could be made about the role of H. pylori in your case. So your normal medical result actual contain more information. I also tested negative for H. pylori several times (7. Gut health and IBS: (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039)). Sorry, I have rambled about the scientific method long enough. This is the kind of stuff I talk about on my job, (process of discovery). I am passionate about the approach of using process-of-elimination to rule out everything a disease is not. But thanks to anyone who was patient enough to read all this, LOL!  :D
Regarding the infection hypothesis more generally: I think I first experienced POIS after returning from a trip to Ghana, after which I had some digestive issues (some of which remain). Maybe I have caught an infection there.
  If you don't have cold sores (HSV-1), genital herpes (HSV-2) or shingles (HHV-3), then it is probably not those viruses. EBV (HHV-4) and CMV (HHV-5) are associated with gastritis and gastrointestinal ulcers in some cases and can infect endothelial cells. I'm still studying properties of EBV. CMV (HHV-5) and HHV-6 both establish latency in endothelia (digestive tract and blood vessels). There are some bacteria that can be triggered by norepinephrine (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11125844), Ref2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1489335/)), but I don't know much about them other than that. Muon has been posting about bacterial infections, so maybe he knows more about them. I hope this was helpful. Let me know if you have any new ideas or suggestions. I am willing to learn and willing to be wrong.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Hopeoneday on August 02, 2018, 04:20:49 PM
Here nicely expl... i posted this link erlier and here again.
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve_infection_hypothesis

Intresting corelation wtih drug mestinon, CFG, ME, POTS patiens and POIS ( fvew members cured, some helped).

Celebrex -is a COX2 inhibitor, which blocks an enzyme that is part of the production of prostaglandins. When glial cells become activated, they produce neuroexcitatory mediators - molecules that turn on nerve cells. According to the vagus nerve infection hypothesis, infection of vagus nerve ganglia causes activation of associated glial cells, which in turn overly-excite the vagus nerve via these mediators. Prostaglandins are one of these neuroexcitatory mediators, along with proinflammatory cytokines, nitric oxide, reactive oxygen species, glutamate, and nerve growth factor. Beside the antiinflammatory mechanism of COX2 inhibition, herpesviruses upregulate COX2 to aid with its own replication (e.g., Reynolds & Enquist 2006 Rev Med Virol 16).

VanElzakker believes that any infectious agent with an affinity for nerve tissues can cause a vagus nerve infection, including HHV-6, Epstein-Barr virus, Varicella zoster virus, Chickenpox, certain kinds of enteroviruses and even Borrelia, the bacterium that causes Lyme disease. He thinks this could explain why no single infective agent has been isolated as the cause of CFS, even though all of these agents have been associated with disease.[4]___

Does enybody of you remeber of tic bited meny years ago, or similar bug who cary many nasty imunocompromised stuff in his body?

What about INTERFERON for pois?
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Interferon#Interferon_type_I

Ampligen - a drug that stimulates the production of natural interferon.
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Ampligen

Tulsi- naturall interferon producer.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on August 02, 2018, 05:54:18 PM
Here nicely expl... i posted this link erlier and here again.
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve_infection_hypothesis

Intresting corelation wtih drug mestinon, CFG, ME, POTS patiens and POIS ( fvew members cured, some helped).

Celebrex -is a COX2 inhibitor, which blocks an enzyme that is part of the production of prostaglandins. When glial cells become activated, they produce neuroexcitatory mediators - molecules that turn on nerve cells. According to the vagus nerve infection hypothesis, infection of vagus nerve ganglia causes activation of associated glial cells, which in turn overly-excite the vagus nerve via these mediators. Prostaglandins are one of these neuroexcitatory mediators, along with proinflammatory cytokines, nitric oxide, reactive oxygen species, glutamate, and nerve growth factor. Beside the antiinflammatory mechanism of COX2 inhibition, herpesviruses upregulate COX2 to aid with its own replication (e.g., Reynolds & Enquist 2006 Rev Med Virol 16).

VanElzakker believes that any infectious agent with an affinity for nerve tissues can cause a vagus nerve infection, including HHV-6, Epstein-Barr virus, Varicella zoster virus, Chickenpox, certain kinds of enteroviruses and even Borrelia, the bacterium that causes Lyme disease. He thinks this could explain why no single infective agent has been isolated as the cause of CFS, even though all of these agents have been associated with disease.[4]___

Does enybody of you remeber of tic bited meny years ago, or similar bug who cary many nasty imunocompromised stuff in his body?

What about INTERFERON for pois?
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Interferon#Interferon_type_I

Ampligen - a drug that stimulates the production of natural interferon.
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Ampligen

Tulsi- naturall interferon producer.

Celebrex is one of the onyl medications that are designed to block COX 2 specifically, but the problem is that it is not widely available in many countries. Any alternative that is much better available ? Perhaps T cells inhibitors like Cyclosporine?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: BluesBrother on August 03, 2018, 11:08:55 AM
Currently, there is a thread where some POISers have volunteered their medical documents so that the POIS community and friends of the POIS community can carry out "crowd research" on this disease (please see Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg23787#msg23787)). This thread (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23764#msg23764) is inspired by medical data posted to the medical data thread. I have also posted my medical data (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24052#msg24052) and a description of my symptoms there. This is important, because the more POISers post there data, the more answers we can have to questions like the ones you are asking.

Hi nanna1,

thanks a lot for your remarks. I completely agree with what you write about the need to collect test results, both normal and abnormal. I have posted mine here: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24765#msg24765
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on August 07, 2018, 08:03:24 PM
Hi All,

  As some of you know I shared some of my medical data here (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039). A lot of progress is being made in terms of identifying Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome markers using medical data on the thread "Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg23787#msg23787)". More specifically Whole Blood Cell (WBC) counts seem to be very important. WBC test measure red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets and other parameters. We could be close to identifying (and statistically validating) the first biological POIS marker. This is huge! Currently there are no statistically verified markers for POIS other than shared symptoms.

  If you have any medical data that you are willing to share, this will be very helpful. It doesn't have to be WBC test, feel free to share whatever you feel comfortable sharing (WBC, viral/bacteria/fungal test, autoimmune panel, hormone, MRI, etc...). Take any precautions to protect your identity such as removing name and date of birth. Also a big thanks to BluesBrother and aswinpras06 for sharing their medical data on the data thread (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg23787#msg23787). :)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on August 08, 2018, 08:59:45 AM
Hi All,

  As some of you know I shared some of my medical data here (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039). A lot of progress is being made in terms of identifying Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome markers using medical data on the thread "Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg23787#msg23787)". More specifically Whole Blood Cell (WBC) counts seem to be very important. WBC test measure red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets and other parameters. We could be close to identifying (and statistically validating) the first biological POIS marker. This is huge! Currently there are no statistically verified markers for POIS other than shared symptoms.

  If you have any medical data that you are willing to share, this will be very helpful. It doesn't have to be WBC test, feel free to share whatever you feel comfortable sharing (WBC, viral/bacteria/fungal test, autoimmune panel, hormone, MRI, etc...). Take any precautions to protect your identity such as removing name and date of birth. Also a big thanks to BluesBrother and aswinpras06 for sharing their medical data on the data thread (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg23787#msg23787). :)

Thanks Nanna for your continuous effort.
Until now I only see low white blood cells count as an indicator of POIS but other than that, could you further elaborate which markers of POIS are which?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on August 08, 2018, 09:45:19 PM
Hi Nas,

  Neutropenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutropenia#Causes) (low neutrophil levels) is a rare condition. Hopeoneday mentioned (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24767#msg24767) that low neutrophil counts seemed to be a pattern in some of the POISer medical data. So I did a statistical analysis on the current data donated by POISers at "Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0)". This includes 5 POISers who have posted Complete Blood Count (CBC) count data. I excluded one POISer data set because the CBC test was taken during a non-chronic infection/disease (outlier). Here are the results so far:
(https://i.imgur.com/ryZ00rH.png)
  The above chart shows the prevalence of low neutrophil levels (neutropenia) for individuals in the United States of America (USA) according to ethnicity (Hispanic 0.38%, white 0.79%, black 4.5%) and individuals with POIS (60%) from this forum. The data for neutropenia in the USA was taken from "Prevalence of neutropenia in the U.S. population: age, sex, smoking status, and ethnic differences. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17404350/)"

  The error bars (confidence intervals, sample errors) for the population samples were calculated using the population proportion estimate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_proportion) with a confidence interval of 90%. This means that we can be 90% confident that the real percent of POISers with neutropenia lies within those error bars. But note that the confidence interval (error bars) for POISers and the general population do not overlap. This is a statistically significant result. The more POISers that submit their CBC test, the smaller the error bars will become and the closer we will get to the true probability of neutropenia among POISers. This could end up becoming the first bio-marker for this disease. But we need more data! A sample size greater than 10 people is ideal.

  I would like to do this statistical analysis for other interesting parameters (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788) as well. But there is not enough medical data for those parameters to reduce confidence interval. In some cases, the sample size is only 1. In any case, thanks Nas for asking. I hope this answers your question.

Note (8/9/2018): I made a correction based on Quantum's suggestion (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24845#msg24845). I change the words "whole blood cell (WBC)" to the more accurate term "complete blood count (CBC)" in this post.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on August 09, 2018, 04:34:12 AM
Thanks for the clarification Nanna,
But what can we conclude from Neutropenia? Is it a sign of Sarcoidosis? Do we have an inflammation in lymphatic regions or deficiency in Neutrophils production? What does that exactly tell us when it comes to POIS?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: FernandoPOIS on August 09, 2018, 07:26:37 AM
Nanna

I want to take this exam contribute to the data.
How long after orgasm should I collect blood? I usually have POIS effects quite prominent on the first day after orgasm. If I go to the laboratory at 8:00 in the morning, what time should I have the orgasm?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on August 09, 2018, 07:59:29 AM
Nanna

I want to take this exam contribute to the data.
How long after orgasm should I collect blood? I usually have POIS effects quite prominent on the first day after orgasm. If I go to the laboratory at 8:00 in the morning, what time should I have the orgasm?

Probably at 7:00 Fernando.
Good luck with trying to talk to people lol.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Quantum on August 09, 2018, 09:01:18 AM
Hi Nas,

  Neutropenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutropenia#Causes) (low neutrophil levels) is a rare condition. Hopeoneday mentioned (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24767#msg24767) that low neutrophil counts seemed to be a pattern in some of the POISer medical data. So I did a statistical analysis on the current data donated by POISers at "Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0)". This includes 5 POISers who have posted Whole Blood Cell (WBC) count data.

Hi Nanna, when talking about "Whole Blood Cell ( WBC) count",   are you referring to White Blood Cell count ?   "WBC", usually, refers to White Blood Cells count ( see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_ranges_for_blood_tests#White_blood_cells_2 ).   I know this is named differently in different clinical settings, and has many names ( complete blood counts, full blood counts, etc...), but for the benefit of all members, just wanted to make it as clear as possible.  In the end, the absolute count of neutrophils and the differential value in % vs all white cells will be included, whether you have a Complete Blood Count/Whole Blood Cells count, or a White Blood Cells count



I have blood tests results from 2013, for my business insurance, but was not in POIS acute phase at the time of this test.  My neutrophils were normal, at 3,0 10^9/L  ( normal 1.8-7,0) , and % of all neutrophil for total white blood cells was 53% ( normal range 40%-80% - ref: https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/2085133-overview ).   So I suppose that your hypothesis is that neutrophils get lower while in POIS acute phase?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: FernandoPOIS on August 09, 2018, 12:47:17 PM
I was reading about neutropenia.
Neutropenia can occur if the person is affected by an allergic reaction. So what is the purpose of seeing the number of neutrophils? If POIS is an allergic reaction, everyone with POIS is supposed to have neutropenia but this will not lead us to something new. Am I right?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on August 09, 2018, 10:04:40 PM
Thanks for the clarification Nanna,
But what can we conclude from Neutropenia? Is it a sign of Sarcoidosis? Do we have an inflammation in lymphatic regions or deficiency in Neutrophils production? What does that exactly tell us when it comes to POIS?
Hi Nas,

  Low white blood cell counts can occur when the immune system is taxed and/or overwhelmed by something. However, I think it is too early to form conclusion about these results (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24840#msg24840). We need more data. But here is a link for those who want to read about potential causes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_blood_cell#Leucopenias

Hi Quantum,

  Thanks for specifying the correct name for the test (Complete Blood Count, CBC). The term "whole blood" is a technical term used to distinguish between types of blood test (blood plasma, serum, whole blood). But as you pointed out, the correct name for the test I was refering to is "complete blood count".
All of the blood cell numbers are important for this analysis. For example, several people show normal platelets but abnormal white blood cells (leukocytes, WBC). Both platelets and white blood cells are made from the same bone marrow and same stem cells. So the normal platelets helps to rule out disfunction of bone marrow or stem cells. Also, lymphocytes levels could indicate infection status. There is a lot more information in the CBC than neutrophil count. I don't think neutropenia causes POIS. But it could be that whatever is causing POIS is also taxing or compromising the immune system.

  I would encourge anyone who has CBC test to share even if they are normal. I don't want to try to prove any theories. The statistics will show which patterns are valid and how important are. But if people know whether or not they were experiencing POIS and which day of POIS when the CBC test was taken, that would be useful info. :)

Nanna

I want to take this exam contribute to the data.
How long after orgasm should I collect blood? I usually have POIS effects quite prominent on the first day after orgasm. If I go to the laboratory at 8:00 in the morning, what time should I have the orgasm?
I don't know the conditions underwhich each person took their CBC test. So I don't know the precise answer to the question. I didn't time my test around an orgasm, but before 2017 I was almost always in a pseudo-POIS fatigue/pain state that got worse after O. My guess is that the exact hour is not so critical. But to anwser Quantum's question, I'm not even sure what the dependence is on acute and chronic phases of POIS. Right now I'm just doing data analysis on whatever data is available. No clear interpretations yet.

I was reading about neutropenia.
Neutropenia can occur if the person is affected by an allergic reaction. So what is the purpose of seeing the number of neutrophils? If POIS is an allergic reaction, everyone with POIS is supposed to have neutropenia but this will not lead us to something new. Am I right?
  So far we don't have any data (published or on the forum) showing POIS to be caused by a specific allergy. There are many circustances (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_blood_cell#Leucopenias) that can cause neutropenia, but I think we should stick to the circumstances for which there is POISer data (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0) (published or on the forum). Neutropenia is extremely rare and that alone is significant. But I think the best thing is to look for statistical markers that can differentiate POISers from non-POISers. The results are open. So once we are sure we have a clear bio-markers, then people can interpret the results, form hypothesies and develop therapies how they see fit. :)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on August 11, 2018, 11:04:04 PM
This is from the "Mayo Clinic: Sex Headaches (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/sex-headaches/symptoms-causes/syc-20377477)" page under the Causes section:

Quote from: Mayo Clinic: Sex Headaches: Causes
Any type of sexual activity that leads to orgasm can trigger sex headaches.

Abrupt-onset and slow-to-build sex headaches can be primary headache disorders not associated with any underlying condition. Sex headaches that come on suddenly are more likely to be associated with:
  • A widening or bubble in the wall of an artery inside your head (intracranial aneurysm)
  • An abnormal connection between arteries and veins in the brain (arteriovenous malformation) that bleeds into the spinal fluid-filled space in and around the brain
  • Bleeding into the wall of an artery leading to the brain (dissection)
  • Stroke
  • Coronary artery disease
  • Use of some medications, such as birth control pills
  • Inflammation from certain infections
"Sex headaches" are also called "coital headaches"
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Bombardier on August 15, 2018, 08:16:29 AM
Hearkening back to an earlier topic in this thread, i find it rather interesting that Nanna highlighted the Trigeminal Nerve as a possible source of our problems. My eyes get inflamed for days after climax or a hot shower, which only disappears with anti-inflammatory eye drops provided by my optician. By that same token, I also get burning pain and strange, almost electricity-like sensations all over my face. Perhaps it's all related?

Regardless, I'm planning on replicating Nanna's Excedrin trial sometime soon. Abstinence has worked wonders for me, but it might cause problems in the future.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: swell on August 16, 2018, 04:40:32 PM
Yes its all related, its classic POIS symptoms, eyes and face/skin.  I get some kind of growth on the inside of eyelids which irritate the heck out of me and the sensations all over face are the nerve endings in a panicky, dying or trying to regenerate state, kind of like peripheral neuropathy. 

Hearkening back to an earlier topic in this thread, i find it rather interesting that Nanna highlighted the Trigeminal Nerve as a possible source of our problems. My eyes get inflamed for days after climax or a hot shower, which only disappears with anti-inflammatory eye drops provided by my optician. By that same token, I also get burning pain and strange, almost electricity-like sensations all over my face. Perhaps it's all related?

Regardless, I'm planning on replicating Nanna's Excedrin trial sometime soon. Abstinence has worked wonders for me, but it might cause problems in the future.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: swell on August 16, 2018, 04:51:09 PM
So I am now pretty certain that my POIS is due to some virus.  Nanna1 suggested somewhere that sugar and lycine is a food for these viruses.  The problem is that since birth I am addicted to sweets.  I can sacrifice anything in the world except sweets.  I am still on the low side of weight so dont need to worry on sugar, except this week I confirmed that sugar is the culprit.

My stack pretty much cured my POIS symptoms.  As a test I held back on lemon tarts that I have been eating for time immemorial.  But yesterday on my 5th day of POIS, I caved in, and binged on lemon tarts like a pig, and my POIS symptoms have re-emerged within 24 hrs on 6th day.

QUESTION:    I have replaced table sugar with Stevia which was easy to do.  But I cannot manage the sugary tarts I eat.  So to contend with whatever my situation is, IS THERE A CHEMICAL COMPOUND THAT I CAN TAKE ON AS NEED BASIS TO NEUTRALIZE SUGAR as soon I injest any sweets? 
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on August 17, 2018, 05:42:54 AM
So I am now pretty certain that my POIS is due to some virus.  Nanna1 suggested somewhere that sugar and lycine is a food for these viruses.  The problem is that since birth I am addicted to sweets.  I can sacrifice anything in the world except sweets.  I am still on the low side of weight so dont need to worry on sugar, except this week I confirmed that sugar is the culprit.

My stack pretty much cured my POIS symptoms.  As a test I held back on lemon tarts that I have been eating for time immemorial.  But yesterday on my 5th day of POIS, I caved in, and binged on lemon tarts like a pig, and my POIS symptoms have re-emerged within 24 hrs on 6th day.

QUESTION:    I have replaced table sugar with Stevia which was easy to do.  But I cannot manage the sugary tarts I eat.  So to contend with whatever my situation is, IS THERE A CHEMICAL COMPOUND THAT I CAN TAKE ON AS NEED BASIS TO NEUTRALIZE SUGAR as soon I injest any sweets? 

I'm not a sugar person at all and usually a small cake sets me off for the entire day with out the need to crave more. In fact I can't drink anything sweet like tea or soda without accompanying it with a salty snack ( I'm a huge savory person ). Zero sugar can also mean an anti-inflammatory diet, many here in this forum mentioned huge improvement with a zero sugar diet.
Any ways, you can try diabetes medications that can increase insulin levels. Try a 1mg glimepiride before eating sugary foods or drinks.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: b_jim on August 17, 2018, 09:20:31 AM
Sugar increase my Pois symptoms too and I stopped it 10 years ago. Severe diet during 2-3 years. Now, I eat sugar sometimes.

Bur i don't think it's caused by a virus or something.

I think we have a problem in our metabolism after ejaculation : something is too high or too low maybe both.

Sugar decreases testosterone (80g of glucose = -25% testosterone says studies).
Sugar activates dopamine system.

Sugar may increase inflammation but is Pois an inflammation problem ? I can't say.

Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on August 17, 2018, 09:55:17 AM
Sugar may increase inflammation but is Pois an inflammation problem ? I can't say.

If there is anything I'm sure of, it's that, yes, POIS is an inflammation problem.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: b_jim on August 17, 2018, 12:03:10 PM
I use taurine and low sugar diet as main cure for my pois.
Taurine has an anti-inflamatory effect on interleukin markers (IL-10) but not on general markers like CRP or TNF-alpha.

I tried several time NSAI (ibuprofen i think) or paracetamol without change.

The symptom that I consider as possible proof of inflammation is hot flashes after ejaculation. I have sugar hours before or after ejaculation, i feel hot flashes. Sugar plays a role of "gas" in Pois hot feeling and cuting the gas makes the duration of Pois shorter.

Taurine and fish (especially fresh cooked salmon?!)taken just before or just after ejaculation seems to cut the hot flashes.


So it is possible that Pois is a inflammation reaction and then trigger effects on neurotransmitters decreasing dopamine/serotonine causing symptoms like low concentration (Dopamine) bad mood/insomnia (serotonine).

But on the contrary, it's possible orgasm/ejaculation causes itself neurotransmitters unbalance and triggers "inflammation-like" or "allergy-like" symptoms by activation of brain area (hypothalamus).

How to know ? that's why i said "no markers, no proof" :)

Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: b_jim on August 17, 2018, 12:15:06 PM
My Pois didn't start with flu-like symptoms, hot feelings and allergy-like symptoms.
It came AFTER !

My Pois came slowly with trouble of concentration and then with flu-like later.

And this point makes me think Inflammation is not Primary but secondary. It's a consequence not the first cause, the first trigger.

I have small episode of depression since hot temperature of this summer.
I worked out, i probably lost my mg by perspiration and I can't produce enough serotonin (maybe at 16/17 hours) and the melatonin (20/21 hours). I have concentration problem like in Pois but not "Pois fever".
The magnesium diet I follow helps a lot.
 
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on August 17, 2018, 12:29:27 PM
So it is possible that Pois is a inflammation reaction and then trigger effects on neurotransmitters decreasing dopamine/serotonine causing symptoms like low concentration (Dopamine) bad mood/insomnia (serotonine).

But on the contrary, it's possible orgasm/ejaculation causes itself neurotransmitters unbalance and triggers "inflammation-like" or "allergy-like" symptoms by activation of brain area (hypothalamus).

How to know ? that's why i said "no markers, no proof" :)

Orgasm is a natural process, that is usually benefitial to mental health, so I don't think that it by it self is the issue. I think as you said inflammation causes the slow down of brain neurotransmitters, especially when it comes to dopamine and serotonin. And parameters until now point in the inflammation direction. Muon's test results show that his th1/th2 levels are elevated.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: b_jim on August 17, 2018, 02:12:42 PM
Lot of things are natural process and some people have issue with them. 
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: b_jim on August 20, 2018, 10:01:56 AM
Somobody told about Eosinophilia–myalgia syndrome which is a syndrom of high tryptophan. I found this very interesting, especlly list of symptoms.
It's a way to explain myalgias and infllamation symptoms.

How to connect this to Pois, I don't know.


Eosinophilia–myalgia syndrome is an increased level of tryptophan in blood. [Need more details]

We suppose orgasm is linked to neurotranmitters release like serotonine.
We know our ejaculation is a "loss" of serotonine, melatonin and thyrotropin releasing hormone.

Can we imagine a retro-controle of tryptophan by orgasm, increasing its level ?

Furthemore, it seems sugar increase symptoms. There is a competition between several amino-acids with tryptophan and sugar helps tryptophan release.


Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on August 22, 2018, 02:56:25 PM
Hi b_jim,

Glucose (sugar) is heavily consumed by some herpes viruses during reproduction (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21779165), Ref2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17173481)). From my understanding, sugar doesn't trigger reactivation of the virus, it just helps it grow and replicate more.
(https://i.imgur.com/edOyNGC.jpg)
figure from "Divergent effects of human cytomegalovirus and herpes simplex virus-1 on cellular metabolism (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21779165)"

Taurine is depleted in herpes infected cells:
Taurine, an amino acid analog involved in osmoregulation and cell volume control [32], is not an obvious precursor metabolite, but was nevertheless decreased 4-fold by HCMV infection. - Dynamics of the cellular metabolome during human cytomegalovirus infection (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1698944/)

"Notably depleted compounds included glycine betaine (TMG), taurine, creatine, and NAD+. The conserved decrease in the osmolyte, taurine, in both HCMV and HSV-1 likely reflects a host cell response to virus-induced increases in cell volume." - Divergent Effects of Human Cytomegalovirus and Herpes Simplex Virus-1 on Cellular Metabolism (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136460/)

Jimmy (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2736.msg24455#msg24455) posted a podcast interview of Dr. Michael Van ElZakker where he discusses the following topics:
  Dr. Van ElZakker's explanations are very clear. I think that a proper understanding of his hypothesis/work can help move our understanding of POIS forward. The podcast can be found here Interview of Harvard neuroscientist Dr. Michael Van ElZakker: CFS & Vagus (http://thelowhistaminechefpodcast.libsyn.com/chronic-fatigue-from-vagus-nerve-infection-a-psychoneuroimmunological-hypothesis)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: swell on September 23, 2018, 08:57:16 PM
Hello nanna1 you write that "glucose is heavily consumed by herpes viruses during reproduction ... it helps it grow and replicate more".  You also cite: "Notably depleted compounds included glycine betaine (TMG), taurine, creatine, and NAD+"   

Are you saying that: 1. Glycine 2. Betaine, 3. Taurine, 4. Creatine, 5. NAD+ are GOOD or or are they BAD to keep Herpes in check during pois?

Also if anyone knows about D-Ribose.  It is a fermented form of sugar (that efficiently produces ATP) that I recently tried and it miraculously took 100% of my speech problems during non-POIS period.  However currently I am in POIS I have a hectic next week and I'm anxious to get rid of my POIS quickly but I think D-Ribose might have worsened certain POIS effects like on nerves and skin.  I have googled 'D-Ribose' and 'Herpes' and there are plenty of articles very poorly written with plenty of acronyms so I am not following if D-Ribose can feed Herpes or it has no effect on it???


Hi b_jim,

Glucose (sugar) is heavily consumed by some herpes viruses during reproduction (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21779165), Ref2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17173481)). From my understanding, sugar doesn't trigger reactivation of the virus, it just helps it grow and replicate more.
(https://i.imgur.com/edOyNGC.jpg)
figure from "Divergent effects of human cytomegalovirus and herpes simplex virus-1 on cellular metabolism (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21779165)"

Taurine is depleted in herpes infected cells:
Taurine, an amino acid analog involved in osmoregulation and cell volume control [32], is not an obvious precursor metabolite, but was nevertheless decreased 4-fold by HCMV infection. - Dynamics of the cellular metabolome during human cytomegalovirus infection (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1698944/)

"Notably depleted compounds included glycine betaine (TMG), taurine, creatine, and NAD+. The conserved decrease in the osmolyte, taurine, in both HCMV and HSV-1 likely reflects a host cell response to virus-induced increases in cell volume." - Divergent Effects of Human Cytomegalovirus and Herpes Simplex Virus-1 on Cellular Metabolism (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136460/)

Jimmy (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2736.msg24455#msg24455) posted a podcast interview of Dr. Michael Van ElZakker where he discusses the following topics:
  • vagus nerve and trigeminal nerve
  • chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) and postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS)
  • viruses and bacteria
  • autoinflammatory syndrome
  • glial cells and mast cells
  • prostaglandins and cytokines
  • innate immune system
  Dr. Van ElZakker's explanations are very clear. I think that a proper understanding of his hypothesis/work can help move our understanding of POIS forward. The podcast can be found here Interview of Harvard neuroscientist Dr. Michael Van ElZakker: CFS & Vagus (http://thelowhistaminechefpodcast.libsyn.com/chronic-fatigue-from-vagus-nerve-infection-a-psychoneuroimmunological-hypothesis)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on October 01, 2018, 05:33:04 PM
Hello nanna1 you write that "glucose is heavily consumed by herpes viruses during reproduction ... it helps it grow and replicate more".  You also cite: "Notably depleted compounds included glycine betaine (TMG), taurine, creatine, and NAD+"   

Are you saying that: 1. Glycine 2. Betaine, 3. Taurine, 4. Creatine, 5. NAD+ are GOOD or or are they BAD to keep Herpes in check during pois?
Hi Swell,
  I don't know if the papers I cited (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1698944/), Ref2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136460/)) say whether increasing these compound are good or bad for stopping herpes replication. The papers say that herpes viruses deplete these compounds (TMG, taurine, creatine, NAD+). Glycine-betaine is one molecule know as tri-methyl-glycine (TMG). Even if supplementing with these compounds does not stop virus replication, they could prevent herpes induce depletion and the damage due to depletion.

  If you want to stop herpes replication, the Beta-herpes virus stack (Betaherpesvirinae) (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg21497#msg21497) is designed to do that. The drugs and supplements in this stack block the production of prostaglandins (like PGE2) by blocking COX and NF-kB (see below image).  I would start with what works first and then experiment by adding and subtracting supplements that you want to improve any long term benefits of your stack. The Betaherpesvirinae stack (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg21497#msg21497) is one stack that works for several people when it is taken properly (see ideal timing and dosage at the bottom of post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg25312#msg25312)). You can talk to your physician about it to make sure it is safe for you.
(https://i.imgur.com/odwQYL3.png)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Vandemolen on October 07, 2018, 07:57:42 AM
I have a question about Herpes. Can you get Herpes without sex? 20 years ago I visited a friend, who is a doctor at an Aids hospital in a country in Southern Africa. There I shook hands of patients and doctors. Already at that time everybody knew that that’s not the way you can get Aids. So I saw it as a normal thing to do. But what if those patients also have Herpes? I never had a cold sore or vesicles on the penis. I think right before or right after my trip to Africa I got POIS. I never did a bloodtest for Herpes. But I read that maybe 75% of the population has a Herpes virus.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on October 09, 2018, 10:45:51 AM
Hi Vandemolen,

  Herpes virus can be transferred through any bodily fluid, but the location of the infection in the body and the immune status of infected person determines which fluids will contain the viruses. If someone has a herpes simplex (HSV-1 or HSV-2) lesion on the skin and you have direct physical contact with that lesion (and fluid), then the virus can be transferred. Herpes simplex can also be transferred through sweat if the infected person has an outbreak on the skin (see Herpes gladiatorum (https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/communicable/athletic_skin_infections/herpes.htm)). The same is true for varicella-zoster virus (HHV-3, VZV, chicken pox) which is highly contagious. HSV-1 typically infects nerves of the brain that extend to the face and HSV-2 typically infects nerves of the spine that extend to the genitals. However, through oral sex, HSV-1 can be transferred from mouth-lesions to someones genitals/spine, or HSV-2 can be transferred from genital-lesions to someones face/brain.
(https://i.imgur.com/qgOiMoW.jpg)
  Only HSV-1, HSV-2 and HHV-3 produce lesions like cold-sores, genital herpes or shingles respectively. The other 3 common herpes viruses do not produce outward physical lesions. These are generalizations, and there can be exceptions to the rule.

  Epstein-Barr virus (HHV-4, EBV), Cytomegalovirus (HHV-5, CMV, HCMV) and HHV-6 are transferred most often through saliva (spit, kissing, sharing food). If you are shaking peoples hands that may have bodily fluid on them, remember to wash your hands before putting your fingers on food (eating), in your mouth or nose (https://www.livescience.com/15453-nose-gateway-virus-brain-disorders.html). Unlike HSV-1, HSV-2 and HHV-3, the EBV and CMV virus can be contagious even when there are no physical signs of an outbreak or illness. This is how people get mononucleosis (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/mononucleosis/symptoms-causes/syc-20350328) through kissing. CMV can also be transferred from mother to child either in the womb, through saliva or breast milk (Ref5 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4164178/)). Mother-to-child transmission typically only occurs if the mother's immune system has been compromised by stress, a new/acute CMV infection or another infection like influenza. The rise in progesterone during pregnancy can suppress both viral activation and immune response to the fetus.

Herpes prevalence:
  99% of all humans are infected with HHV-6 during childhood (Ref1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_herpesvirus_6), Ref2 (https://hhv-6foundation.org/what-is-hhv-6)). 60 to 90% of humans are infected with HSV-1 depending on country/location (HSV prevelance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_herpes_simplex) in the link, see table on the right). 50 to 75% of the world's population is infected with CMV. About 20% is infected with HSV-2 (HSV prevelance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_herpes_simplex)). Usually what happens when a person is infected is that their immune system fights off the virus and removes it from the body before latency (dormancy) can occur. So being acutely infected with the virus does not mean it will remain and become latent in your body for life. The prevalence of herpes in some African and European nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_herpes_simplex) is higher than the rest of the world partly because pathogens like HIV compromise the immune system of some of these individuals making it easier for them to be infected with other viruses like herpes. We are all probably exposed to different herpes viruses at multiple times in your life, but it is only when you have a compromised immune system that the virus can establish latency. If a virus (or bacteria) does become latent, the immune system is responsible for keeping the virus latent and preventing it from replicating. So maintaining a healthy immune system is important!

  In general, herpes is only contagious when an infected persons immune system is weakened (immunocompromised), the virus is activated and is being expelled in bodily fluid. So the vast majority of herpes infected individuals are not contagious. And even if they are contagious, hopefully your immune system can fight off the infection before latency occurs.

Location-specific infections = rare disease:
  In terms of POIS or any other disease, the location of the infection in the body is more important than the fact that there is an infection (post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23766#msg23766)). When there is no virus outbreak, herpes viruses tend to establish latency in specific locations and tissues of the body. For example, some herpes viruses (HSV-1 and HHV-6) are positively correlated with Alzheimer's disease (Ref3 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4128394/), Ref4 (https://hhv-6foundation.org/alzheimers-disease/harvard-scientists-show-that-amyloid-plaques-are-an-antimicrobial-response-to-herpesvirus)), but not everyone that has these latent infections gets the disease. It is only when the infection reaches certain parts of the brain (i.e. hippocampus) that these infections become risk factors for the disease.
  Many people can have the same virus. But if the location of the infection in the body is different, then the disease (Alzheimer's, IBS, CFS, arthritis, asthma, heart disease, etc...) that manifest will be different.

A hypothesis:
  I suspect that POIS can result from an infection of the brain vasculature (blood vessels) which are located near the base of the brain near the trigeminal nerve and basal root ganglia. Normally, there is no connection between vasodilation and inflammation. But if epithelial or nerve cells of the blood vessels are injured by infection, then vasodilation (vascular stretching) can cause local inflammation and vice versa (post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24500#msg24500)). There are bacteria like Toxoplasma gondii (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasma_gondii) which have herpes-like properties and can cause flu-like symptoms when activated. I recently got IgG tested for Toxoplasma gondii and expect to hear back from the lab soon. There is not enough submitted virus and bacteria test (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg23787#msg23787) to establish these hypotheses statistically. But hopefully our collective contributions can make a break-through.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on October 11, 2018, 10:34:31 AM
Hi All,

  I have updated my medical data post with new hormone test (testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, luteinizing hormone)(see 6. Hormone Tests (Thyroid and Steroid) and B12 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039) section of that post).
  I also took a new bacteria infection test IgG for Toxoplasma gondii (see 4. Virus and bacteria test abnormal (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039) section of that post). The summary of the data is listed at the bottom of the post.

  My medical data is listed on the Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24052#msg24052) thread.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Scrub on October 11, 2018, 10:42:43 AM
Quote
A hypothesis:
  I suspect that POIS can result from an infection of the brain vasculature (blood vessels) which are located near the base of the brain near the trigeminal nerve and basal root ganglia. Normally, there is no connection between vasodilation and inflammation. But if epithelial or nerve cells of the blood vessels are injured by infection, then vasodilation (vascular stretching) can cause local inflammation

Hi nanna. This interests me a lot. I'm seriously considering POIS as a expression of MCAS and this could be a part of it, correct me if I'm wrong, but histamine release from mast cells and other inflammatory cytokines and leukotrienes can cause vasodilation.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: JohnJames on October 14, 2018, 08:12:51 AM
Hi BluesBrother,

What I have trouble understanding is why the particular vascular stress during ejaculation/orgasm should trigger POIS symptoms but not, for example, exercise (although there are some people who experience POIS-like symptoms after exercise).
  I am one of those people that used to have exercise-induced flu-like symptoms. But for some reason I don't have them anymore even when I am not taking my supplement stack. There are certain vascular differences between sex and exercise; penile erection being one of them. I believe that the critical area for POIS to be triggered is somewhere in the lower brain area. But in all truth, right now I think that our knowledge of the mechanisms behind POIS is limited by the lack of medical data from POISers.
 
  Currently, there is a thread where some POISers have volunteered their medical documents so that the POIS community and friends of the POIS community can carry out "crowd research" on this disease (please see Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg23787#msg23787)). This thread (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23764#msg23764) is inspired by medical data posted to the medical data thread. I have also posted my medical data (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24052#msg24052) and a description of my symptoms there. This is important, because the more POISers post there data, the more answers we can have to questions like the ones you are asking.
  One troubling habit I have noticed on several forums (POIScenter, NS, reddit/POIS) is that POISers tend to post their medical results only when there is something unusual or they test positive for some disease. I think this feeds false-positive-hypothesies of POIS. For example, it is well known that lecithin helps many POISers reduce their symptoms. This benefit of lecithin motivates those who have genetic test showing MTHFR mutations (which in some cases don't affect methylation) to post their gene profiles. Those POISers probably have a lot of other normal (negative) medical test results of other parameters that they don't share because maybe they think it was not interesting. But the normal medical results are often more important than the abnormal results. Lecithin can reduce my POIS symptoms, but my blood test show that under-methylation does not cause my POIS (see 12. Methylation/homocysteine blood test: (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039)). So even if undermethylation doesn't cause the disease, overmethylation (or some other mechanism) can help it. I did see one POISer (on reddit) with a normal MTHFR gene profile and these genes are usually redundant. This could mean that for every one person who post genetic profiles showing mutations, there could be ten or more people who don't share their genetic profile because they don't see any abnormal mutations or the results disagree with the under-methylation theory. In the scientific community, we call this Publication Bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publication_bias). I think Publication Bias is the reason years of POISer experimentation on the forums don't lead to more knowledge of what POIS is. We need normal and negative medical test results just as much as abnormal and positive results to be posted. This will not only allow us to answer questions like yours, but also develop more targeted therapies for the disease.

  In your case, you were able to rule out the possibility of H. pylori being the cause of your POIS because you tested negative for the bacteria. If you had tested positive for the bacteria, no decision could be made about the role of H. pylori in your case. So your normal medical result actual contain more information. I also tested negative for H. pylori several times (7. Gut health and IBS: (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039)). Sorry, I have rambled about the scientific method long enough. This is the kind of stuff I talk about on my job, (process of discovery). I am passionate about the approach of using process-of-elimination to rule out everything a disease is not. But thanks to anyone who was patient enough to read all this, LOL!  :D
Regarding the infection hypothesis more generally: I think I first experienced POIS after returning from a trip to Ghana, after which I had some digestive issues (some of which remain). Maybe I have caught an infection there.
  If you don't have cold sores (HSV-1), genital herpes (HSV-2) or shingles (HHV-3), then it is probably not those viruses. EBV (HHV-4) and CMV (HHV-5) are associated with gastritis and gastrointestinal ulcers in some cases and can infect endothelial cells. I'm still studying properties of EBV. CMV (HHV-5) and HHV-6 both establish latency in endothelia (digestive tract and blood vessels). There are some bacteria that can be triggered by norepinephrine (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11125844), Ref2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1489335/)), but I don't know much about them other than that. Muon has been posting about bacterial infections, so maybe he knows more about them. I hope this was helpful. Let me know if you have any new ideas or suggestions. I am willing to learn and willing to be wrong.

Hi Nanna,

Is testing negative for H. Pylori a good or a bad thing? I noticed on the pois subreddit a guy recently posted saying his doctor also found no trace of H.Pylori as though that was a bad thing, not a good thing. He then went on a diet which eventually cured him?

Also I couldn't help but notice your vitamin D levels were only at 27, this might be considered very low depending on where you look.

See: https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/9i79vb/pois_mostly_gone_2_months_and_counting/

Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on October 15, 2018, 01:11:31 AM
Quote
A hypothesis:
  I suspect that POIS can result from an infection of the brain vasculature (blood vessels) which are located near the base of the brain near the trigeminal nerve and basal root ganglia. Normally, there is no connection between vasodilation and inflammation. But if epithelial or nerve cells of the blood vessels are injured by infection, then vasodilation (vascular stretching) can cause local inflammation

Hi nanna. This interests me a lot. I'm seriously considering POIS as a expression of MCAS and this could be a part of it, correct me if I'm wrong, but histamine release from mast cells and other inflammatory cytokines and leukotrienes can cause vasodilation.
Hi Scrub,

  I think that you are right in that histamine levels may rise when we are experiencing POIS. The effectiveness of H1 histamine blockers against POIS symptoms is good evidence of this. Histamine is produced by immune cells such as macrophage, mast, basophil and Enterochromaffin-like (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterochromaffin-like_cell) cells (wiki1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histamine#Storage_and_release)) and can cause vasodilation (wiki2 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histamine#Vasodilation_and_a_fall_in_blood_pressure)). With that said, there are three POISers that have been tested for mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and all three tested negative/normal using tryptase blood tests (post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788)). MCAS implies that there is a disease of the mast cells. But the medical data from POISers suggest that POIS is not a disease of the mast cells. If there is dysfunction in some part of the immune system, mast cells do not appear to be part of the dysfunction.

  Histamine is sometimes released when the immune system is trying to get rid of something harmful (toxin, bacteria, virus, fungus, allergen, cancer, venom). This immune response is not normally considered a disease of the immune system. For example, when someone has the flu (influenza), histamine is released by mast cells to increase fluid production and induce sneezing. Sneezing then expels the virus from the body. The immune systems response to the flu makes us feel sick, but everyone agrees that strengthening the immune system is the best option to feeling better. There is evidence in the POISer data that the immune system is heavily involved in POIS (post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24966#msg24966)). This implies, as you have stated, that cytokines and leukotrienes are also involved and can contribute to vasodilation and inflammation. So I would agree with the majority of what you were saying. Please continue to explore your ideas. You may find some error in my reasoning or find out something that I have not thought of. Thanks Scrub! :)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: fernab on October 18, 2018, 02:05:43 PM
Hi, I would only add my experience about vasodilatation and POIS. Since my POIS symptoms became stronger one of them is vasodilatation. When my POIS becomes stronger I also feel that all my vessels all arround the body are bigger.

Not only that, a varicocele appears on my left side testicles( varicocele is a varicose on the testicle).

And even more, I can say without any doubt. That there is a direct relationship between the strength of my POIS symptoms and the size of that varicocele. That is to say. The stronger my POIS symptoms are the bigger my varicocele becomes... And viceversa, the lighter my POIS symptoms are the smaller my varicocele becomes. In the moments I did not felt any POIS symptoms the varicocele disappears completely. I suffer POIS about 5 years ago. Before POIS I never had a varicocele. It just appeared when POIS appeared. At the same time.

So, I would say that in my case. POIS and vasodilatation are strongly related. And that I would like to test if my histamine level in blood is high when varicocele is present or POIS symptoms are stronger.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Scrub on October 18, 2018, 04:12:35 PM
Hi, I would only add my experience about vasodilatation and POIS. Since my POIS symptoms became stronger one of them is vasodilatation. When my POIS becomes stronger I also feel that all my vessels all arround the body are bigger.

Not only that, a varicocele appears on my left side testicles( varicocele is a varicose on the testicle).

And even more, I can say without any doubt. That there is a direct relationship between the strength of my POIS symptoms and the size of that varicocele. That is to say. The stronger my POIS symptoms are the bigger my varicocele becomes... And viceversa, the lighter my POIS symptoms are the smaller my varicocele becomes. In the moments I did not felt any POIS symptoms the varicocele disappears completely. I suffer POIS about 5 years ago. Before POIS I never had a varicocele. It just appeared when POIS appeared. At the same time.

So, I would say that in my case. POIS and vasodilatation are strongly related. And that I would like to test if my histamine level in blood is high when varicocele is present or POIS symptoms are stronger.

I'm fully convinced that POIS can be explained by one of these possibilities:

-POIS is an expression of MCAS (Mast Cell Activation Syndrome)
-POIS is a result of a blood flow issue with vasodilation being the one big problem.
-POIS occurs because there is some glutamate receptor overstimulation.
-POIS happens after levels of acetylcholine in sex arousal gets too high and then too low.

Please, could you share more of your symptoms?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Hopeoneday on October 19, 2018, 04:00:40 AM
Hi, I would only add my experience about vasodilatation and POIS. Since my POIS symptoms became stronger one of them is vasodilatation. When my POIS becomes stronger I also feel that all my vessels all arround the body are bigger.

Not only that, a varicocele appears on my left side testicles( varicocele is a varicose on the testicle).

And even more, I can say without any doubt. That there is a direct relationship between the strength of my POIS symptoms and the size of that varicocele. That is to say. The stronger my POIS symptoms are the bigger my varicocele becomes... And viceversa, the lighter my POIS symptoms are the smaller my varicocele becomes. In the moments I did not felt any POIS symptoms the varicocele disappears completely. I suffer POIS about 5 years ago. Before POIS I never had a varicocele. It just appeared when POIS appeared. At the same time.

So, I would say that in my case. POIS and vasodilatation are strongly related. And that I would like to test if my histamine level in blood is high when varicocele is present or POIS symptoms are stronger.

Yeah, that i fell on extreme heat when is summer, whole blod wesel get bigger and i am like in pois state ewan withouth ejaculation(like some sort of metabolic isue, body cant balance it self).

And symptomes of pots get biger( the blod is puled on legs down when i get out of bed imidiatly and my heart is strugling because no enough blod), that last months and months, an i fight it with will power, diet etc till it come beter.

Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: fernab on October 20, 2018, 01:35:33 PM

I'm fully convinced that POIS can be explained by one of these possibilities:

-POIS is an expression of MCAS (Mast Cell Activation Syndrome)
-POIS is a result of a blood flow issue with vasodilation being the one big problem.
-POIS occurs because there is some glutamate receptor overstimulation.
-POIS happens after levels of acetylcholine in sex arousal gets too high and then too low.

Please, could you share more of your symptoms?

Hi, Scrub

I am suffering POIS since 5 years ago. And throughout these 5 years symptoms do not stay stable. Some oficina them are still here. Other have diminish a lot. And unfortunately, new things (no symptoms) have began to happen since last February. One day on february, I was riding a sleigh and because of this. Things strangely started to change because of that.

Some symptoms are still here since the beginning:
1.- Strong palpitations.
2.- varicocele (especially on left side testicle)
3.- respiratory distress similar to asthma. sometimes when it is accentuated with lung pain when breathing.
4.- skin problems: local glans. eczema Peeling and also by other parts of the body. right eyebrow, dermatitis. also near the left ear, by the scalp. skin peeling sometimes itchy skin. dryness of skin. And more skin problema.
5.- red eyes. ocular dryness.blepharitis
6.- Running nose.
7.- change of tone of voice. as a kind of hoarseness.
8.- insomnia.
9.- a lot of digestive problems. diarrhea mucus in stool Acute weight loss. I have almost lost 10 kilos

And maybe some more I don't remember right now....

About vasodilatation, I have the suspect that histamine could be the cause or part of the cause at least. since sometimes I have taken antihistamines, I have noticed some improvement and even sleep better....
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: swell on October 20, 2018, 04:22:18 PM
I think nanna1 id'd vasodilation as the issue also.  Though I scratch my head on that since I view my issues in terms of vasoconstriction being the problem.  Help me understand, I get the exact symptoms of a pinched nerve like burning / tingling sensation, wouldn't that be vasoconstriction?
 
-POIS is a result of a blood flow issue with vasodilation being the one big problem.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Vandemolen on October 29, 2018, 08:49:46 AM
Preventing Nocturnal Emissions POIS
--under construction--
  Since sleep typically last for 8 hours, one strategy could be to take supplements that have a long half-life exceeding 8 hours. Here is a list of beneficial supplements with long half-lives:
-vitamin D3, half-life=360hrs
-celecoxib, 11hrs
-allopurinol, 15hrs
-vitamin B12, 144hrs
-conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), >18hrs
-omega-3, 48hrs
-magnesium threonate
-selenomethionine
-N-acetylcysteine

During sleep testosterone levels rise and shift the body into an aroused state (through enhanced D2-dopamine receptor signalling (http://through enhanced D2-dopamine signalling)). Strategies that suppress glutamate-NMDA signaling and/or enhance GABA signaling can negate the arousal effect of testosterone.
NMDA inhibitors:
-magnesium threonate, magnesium gluconate

This post is intended to facilitate discussion, not to endorse treatment.
For a lot POIS-patients POIS kick in the morning after. After sexual activity it’s hard to fall asleep. What if at POIS-patients the testosterone level will not rise during sleep?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: demografx on October 29, 2018, 07:33:41 PM
Preventing Nocturnal Emissions POIS
--under construction--
  Since sleep typically last for 8 hours, one strategy could be to take supplements that have a long half-life exceeding 8 hours. Here is a list of beneficial supplements with long half-lives:
-vitamin D3, half-life=360hrs
-celecoxib, 11hrs
-allopurinol, 15hrs
-vitamin B12, 144hrs
-conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), >18hrs
-omega-3, 48hrs
-magnesium threonate
-selenomethionine
-N-acetylcysteine

During sleep testosterone levels rise and shift the body into an aroused state (through enhanced D2-dopamine receptor signalling (http://through enhanced D2-dopamine signalling)). Strategies that suppress glutamate-NMDA signaling and/or enhance GABA signaling can negate the arousal effect of testosterone.
NMDA inhibitors:
-magnesium threonate, magnesium gluconate

This post is intended to facilitate discussion, not to endorse treatment.
For a lot POIS-patients POIS kick in the morning after. After sexual activity it’s hard to fall asleep. What if at POIS-patients the testosterone level will not rise during sleep?

Just FYI, my endocrinologist told me to take my testosterone *at night* for best results.


Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Vandemolen on October 29, 2018, 08:27:57 PM
Preventing Nocturnal Emissions POIS
--under construction--
  Since sleep typically last for 8 hours, one strategy could be to take supplements that have a long half-life exceeding 8 hours. Here is a list of beneficial supplements with long half-lives:
-vitamin D3, half-life=360hrs
-celecoxib, 11hrs
-allopurinol, 15hrs
-vitamin B12, 144hrs
-conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), >18hrs
-omega-3, 48hrs
-magnesium threonate
-selenomethionine
-N-acetylcysteine

During sleep testosterone levels rise and shift the body into an aroused state (through enhanced D2-dopamine receptor signalling (http://through enhanced D2-dopamine signalling)). Strategies that suppress glutamate-NMDA signaling and/or enhance GABA signaling can negate the arousal effect of testosterone.
NMDA inhibitors:
-magnesium threonate, magnesium gluconate

This post is intended to facilitate discussion, not to endorse treatment.
For a lot POIS-patients POIS kick in the morning after. After sexual activity it’s hard to fall asleep. What if at POIS-patients the testosterone level will not rise during sleep?

Just FYI, my endocrinologist told me to take my testosterone *at night* for best results.
Thanks. I take the Clomid in the morning. That’s because it gives me hot flushes. And then hopefully I don’t get those when I go to sleep. But I will ask my doctor if it’s ok to take and extra Clomid pill on the night I am sexually active. I only take 25mg. The lowest is 50 mg. So I have to break the pill in two.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on December 29, 2018, 08:05:22 PM
Hi All,

  I was asked (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg26351#msg26351) by Nas to share a few thoughts on a mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS) hypothesis of POIS. I'm not an expert on mast cells, but I will give my opinion. I don't want to tell anyone else how to think, but my approach to evaluating hypotheses is to test them. And "testing a hypothesis" often means trying to prove it wrong. If I have an idea, I will create a model/hypothesis and then try to prove my own model false (or make the hypothesis fail under some special condition). This process usually allows me to learn something that results in a better hypothesis/model. I say this because I do not want it to seem like I am being critical of any person that is investigating mast cell related causes of POIS. Critical testing is just my general approach to any scientific question. Hopefully something here is useful in refining mast cell related models of POIS.

Mast cells have two main immune functions:
1. chemotaxis (http://www.gluegrant.org/chemotaxis.htm) (communicating with systemic immune system and bringing them to the site of a problem)
2. fluid removal (swelling, sweating, sneezing, diarrhea, crying, swelling)

  In my opinion, mast cells perform normal and beneficial roles in helping POIS patients resolve illness. In healthy people, mast cells detect harmful substances, induce chemotaxis of immune cells and facilitate the removal of those harmful substances through bodily fluids. The following diagram is slightly over simplified but still useful for this discussion. A more detailed explanation of the immune response can be found here (video1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIJK3dwCWCw), video2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DFN4IBZ3rI)).
(https://i.imgur.com/WpqDYIU.png)
Note that if a pathogen is not contained by the systemic immune response, then mast cells and macrophages continue to activate (chemotaxis) in a loop/cycle. If the immune system is unsuccessful at controlling the pathogen, this cycle of mast (or macrophages) activation does not end. There may exist a POISer who also has a mast cell disorder as a second disease. But I think that POIS patients in general do not have mast cell disorders for some of the following reasons:

  The 1st reason that MCAS seems unlikely to cause POIS is that the medical test of mast cell disorders from POISers are all normal.
--5 of us have normal trypase (mast cell activation syndrome) levels (BluesBrother, nanna1, Vandemolen (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25508#msg25508), Muon, Muon's brother).
--2 of us have normal histamine levels (nanna1 tested histamine, Muon tested N-methyl-histamine).
...
--3 of us show normal IgE (allergy) levels (aswinpras06, certainlypois2 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24532#msg24532), Vandemolen)
My MCAS test are found here: 13. Mast cell activation syndrome and mastocytosis: (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039)

  The 2nd reason is that sleep helps recovery from POIS. The sleep-POIS connection is important because adequate sleep increases immune system function, whereas sleep deprivation suppresses immune system function. This is a strong indicator that the immune system is involved with helping us recover from a POIS state even while it is creating symptoms.

  The 3rd reason is that no one has found immunoglubin E (IgE antibodies) related to semen in POIS patients. Both the Waldinger group and the Jiang (Ref (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1743609515309632)) group failed to find any connection between semen related IgE and POIS. Also, three POIScenter members report normal IgE levels (see post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788)). These observations limit the potential triggers for MCAS.

  The 4th reason is that the symptoms of POIS do not match MCAS. For example, anaphylaxis, hives and angioedema are common symptoms of mast cell related illnesses such as mastocytosis and MCAS. Even if every POISer doesn't experience these symptoms, if MCAS was associated with POIS, I would expect these symptoms to be more common. But so far I haven't heard of anyone with POIS reporting orgasm induced anaphylaxis or angioedema. None of the POIS papers discuss these symptoms in POIS patients. One paper mentions hive like symptoms in POIS patients, but this was a small minority. And it appears that these patients can have hives even without an orgasm event.
The Waldinger symptom clusters (Ref (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S174360951533455X)):
(https://i.imgur.com/z4KnD4l.png)
The Waldinger diagnostic criteria (Ref (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S174360951533455X)):
(https://i.imgur.com/SA63dWF.png)
Even if a person does have symptoms similar to MCAS, this does not mean that mast cells are involved. Other immune cells, like M1 macrophages, can also produce MCAS-like symptoms without releasing tryptase.
 Moreover, the documented/published symptoms of POIS are much more similar to the symptoms of an influenza viral infection (flu) than they are to MCAS. Like POIS, sleep, stress reduction and vitamins also help people recover from the flu. With the flu, macrophages and mast cells activate to start a systemic immune response (chemotaxis) that fights the flu virus, and then these cells stablize once the virus has been contained.
 However, there is one important difference between POIS and the flu. Several POISers have noted a left-right asymmetry in POIS symptoms, meaning that some of their symmptoms occur more on one side of the body than the other side. There are several discussions on the POIScenter forum about Bell's palsy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_palsy#Cause), myasthenia gravis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myasthenia_gravis) and hemicrania continua (https://americanmigrainefoundation.org/resource-library/understanding-migrainehemicrania-continua/) like symptoms related to POIS. If POIS has a left-right asymmetry in some POIS patients then the cause of POIS should be localized to a specific part of the body. But mast cell are not localized to any specific part of the body. Every tissue in the body has mast cells. So mast cells cannot cause asymmetric symptoms. But a localized pathogen can activate immune cells asymmetrically.

  The 5th reason is that there are other more likely explainations for the inflammation. For example, M1 macrophages can produce symptoms very similar to mast cell degranulation (including chemotaxis) without releasing tryptase. This is consistent with the fact that 5 POISers have tested negative for tryptase (see post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788)).
(https://i.imgur.com/a8vJM2i.png)
Figure from: Macrophage imbalance (M1 vs. M2) and upregulation of mast cells in wall of ruptured human cerebral aneurysms: Preliminary results (D Hasan, et. al., 2012) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22999528)
  Also, a mast cell disorder implies that there is no legitimate or useful reason for mast cells to activate (induce chemotaxis and fluid removal), but a harmful pathogen is a legitimate reason for chemotaxis. In order to demonstrate that there is a mast cell disorder causing POIS, you would have to rule-out viruses as a cause. Because as long as viruses are replicating in the body, immune cell activation is the correct immune response. And this immune activation is helpful in correcting the problem, even if the symptoms are undesirable.

Here are a few ideas that may or may not be true/useful:
These articles may also help further the discussion:
Post-Orgasmic Illness Syndrome: A Review (2018) (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2050052117301166?via%3Dihub)
Postorgasmic Illness Syndrome: What do we know so far? (2018) (http://www.rarediseasesjournal.com/articles/postorgasmic-illness-syndrome-what-do-we-know-so-far.html)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on December 29, 2018, 10:48:25 PM
Ok thanks Nanna for your 2 cents on this matter I will try to answer many of your points and by that perhaps give you a better understanding of the Mast Cell theory which I recently started to believe in.

So first of all I really hoped that you wouldn't connect your Herpes theory and try and make a fresh theory about Mast Cells' involvement, but unfortunately you didn't so your opinion is unfortunately very biast.

Quote
  In my opinion, mast cells perform normal and beneficial roles in helping POIS patients resolve illness. In healthy people, mast cells detect harmful substances, induce chemotaxis of immune cells and facilitate the removal of those harmful substances through bodily fluids. The following diagram is slightly over simplified but still useful for this discussion. A more detailed explanation of the immune response can be found here (video1, video2).

So its clear here that you are thinking in term of fighting off infection, but my theory suggests that it's an activation caused by either semen or orgasm. When Mast Cells are activated without proper IgE mediation they release inflammatory mediators that are usually responsible for POIS symptoms.

Quote
The 1st reason that MCAS seems like an unlikely cause of POIS is that the medical test of mast cell disorders from POISers are all normal.

That is not entirely true Muon also showed increase in 11-beta-PgdF2a. Tryptase is never a good determiner of MCAS. If we would want to completely rule out MCAS we'd need complete test of major Mast Cell mediators. IgE is based on the proposal that POIS is semen allergy which is something Waldinger himself mentioned to not be the case.

Quote
The 2nd reason is that sleep helps recovery from POIS. The sleep-POIS connection is important because adequate sleep increases immune system function, whereas sleep deprivation suppresses immune system function. This is a strong indicator that the immune system is involved with helping us recover from a POIS state even while it is creating symptoms.

You are thinking generally in terms of the immune system fighting off infection. I do not propose that, instead, I suggest that sleep helps in the recovery process of dead neurons after neuroinflammation caused by PgD2 release, plus as it is very clear in POIS, symptoms get better in time until the next orgasm session. I honestly don't know if we have auto-immune reaction towards semen which then it means that the immune system got rid of semen or that it's pure Mast Cell Activation in which inflammation heals up after Mast Cells calm down. But generally speaking Mast Cells calm down after a trigger attack.

Quote

  The 3rd reason is that no one has found immunoglubin E (IgE antibodies) related to semen in POIS patients. Both the Waldinger group and the Jiang (Ref) group failed to find any connection between semen related IgE and POIS. This observation limits the role of mast cells in POIS to being activated by other cells.


MCAS does not require IgE trigger.

Quote
The 4th reason is that the symptoms of POIS do not match MCAS. For example, anaphylaxis, hives and angioedema are common symptoms of mast cell related illnesses such as mastocytosis and MCAS. Even if every POISer doesn't experience these symptoms, if MCAS was associated with POIS, I would expect these to be common symptoms. But so far I haven't heard of anyone with POIS reporting orgasm induced anaphylaxis or angioedema. None of the POIS papers discuss these symptoms in POIS patients. One paper mentions hive like symptoms in POIS patients, but this was a small minority. And it appears that these patients can have hives even without an orgasm event.

Ok well similarities outweigh differences. So anaphylaxis is more common with mastocytosis than MCAS, you are correct however that it is rare for a POISer to have anaphylaxis. There is one patient during desensitization who had a shock and required two Epinephrine shots, and according to Muon that cured him of POIS for some reason? But anyways, just because there is no anaphylaxis it doesn't mean that MC aren't involved. When it comes to hives Vandermolen ( I think ) said he has hives. Even if its rare for POISers it is still an indicator for MC involvement. I propose that in the case of POIS each patient has Mast Cell Activation in particular parts of his body that might be different than another. The fact that all the cascade of POIS symptoms are usual MCAS symptoms and are also places where Mast Cells reside is actually a great indicator for the connection between the two diseases. The rarity of anaphylaxis and angioedema could be because that POIS only triggeres certain regions in the body and not others, notably the CNS. Perhaps it can be said that it is not as systematic as MCAS, rather localized.

Quote
Other immune cells, like M1 macrophages, can also produce MCAS-like symptoms without releasing tryptase.

Good point, that's not however a disprove of Mast Cell's role rather a mechanism that is seen in Mast Cells Disease sufferers, wherein the release of PgD2 activates the microglia leading to neuroinflammation and thus neurodegradation.

Quote
Moreover, the documented/published symptoms of POIS are much more similar to the symptoms of an influenza virus infection (flu) than they are to MCAS. Like POIS, sleep, stress reduction and vitamins also helps people recover from the flu. With the flu, macrophages and mast cells activate to start a systemic immune response (chemotaxis) that fights the flu virus, and then these cells stablize once the virus has been contained.

This is very subjective Nanna, I don't personally have flu like symptoms? People suffering from MCAS also report that sleep, stress reduction and vitamins help them.

Quote
However, there is one important difference between POIS and the flu. Several POISers have noted a left-right asymmetry in POIS symptoms, meaning that some of their symmptoms occur more on one side of the body than the other side. There are several discussions on the POIScenter forum about Bell's palsy and hemicrania continua like symptoms related to POIS. If POIS has a left-right asymmetry in some POIS patients then the cause of POIS must be localized to a specific part of the body. But mast cell are not localized to any specific part of the body. Every tissue in the body has mast cells. So mast cells cannot cause asymmetric symptoms. But a localized pathogen can activate immune cells asymmetrically.


This is perhaps your best point in this discussion, I have no idea how to explain the left-right asymmetry. Maybe there could be a Mast Cell explanation to that? I still don't know it. Bell's palsy could be related to neuroinflammation.

Quote
  The 5th reason is that there are other more likely explainations for the inflammation. For example, M1 macrophages can produce symptoms very similar to mast cell degranulation (including chemotaxis) without releasing tryptase. This is consistent with the fact that 5 POISers have tested negative for tryptase (see post).

Brain Macrophages like Microglia and Astrocytes are also involved in neuropsychiatric symptoms of MCAS. Tryptase is not a determiner of MCAS alone. Not while symptoms are localized in specific places.

Thanks again Nanna, if any of my points are wrong please tell. I feel that this as close as I can get when it comes to explaining POIS. I even asked two rare diseases doctors recently and they both agreed that the role of Mast Cells should investigated when it comes to POIS.
All in all I just want to find a solution to this demn thing,I don't care who's right or who's wrong I just care about going in the right direction when it comes solving POIS and I find these discussions to be perhaps helpful.

Merry Christmas and have a happy new year.

Edit: References:

1- "Disorders manifested by mast cell activation encompass a broad variety of diseases that can range from very rare to very common. Mast cell activation can be caused by both IgE-mediated and non?IgE-mediated triggers." (https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(17)31025-4/fulltext)
2- Muon's elevated 11Beta-Prostaglandin F2 Alpha (24h urine) (https://www.dropbox.com/s/d2bs22uh2e9nqxw/Muon%205-3%20PGD2%20metabolites%2024h.pdf?dl=0)
3- "POIS is not associated with increased total serum IgE concentrations." (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5001999/)
4-  "Experimental and clinical studies provide evidence that pharmacological sleep promotion in rodents and treatment of sleep disorders in humans improves functional outcome following stroke." (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2451994416300141)
5- Prostaglandin D2-mediated microglia/astrocyte interaction enhances astrogliosis and demyelination in twitcher. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16624958)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on December 31, 2018, 01:51:30 PM
Hi Nas,

  Great reply! I can tell you have thought a lot about MCAS and are doing good work in investigating it. You may notice that in my previous post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg26502#msg26502) I only refered to medical data from POISers, published POIS papers, POIScenter post and data from healthy controls. I did not reference science papers or websites discussing potential theories that could be related to POIS, and I did not reference my own personal hypotheses.
There is available data on the Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg23787#msg23787) thread related to these parameters:
  There is also POISer medical data found in published papers from the research groups of Waldinger, Jiang, Hellstrom, Goldmeier and others, in addition to orgasm data from healthy people. I used standard ideas from the field of immunology to interpret this data, and the links to the videos give a good explanation of immunology concepts.
A more detailed explanation of the immune response can be found here (video1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIJK3dwCWCw), video2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DFN4IBZ3rI)).

  In the previous post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg26502#msg26502), I tested the hypothesis of MCAS involvement in POIS using this POISer medical data (not theories expressed on the forums). I believe that testing the many POIS theories against POISer data and using process-of-elimination to rule out hypotheses will ultimately lead to a better understanding and the development of evidence-based treatments. This is a type of open-source science that could be much faster at producing results.

  The 5 reasons that I give for not associating MCAS with POIS come from all of the available POISer medical data that I am aware of.
  The 1st reason that MCAS seems unlikely to cause POIS is that the medical test of mast cell disorders from POISers are all normal.
  The 2nd reason is that sleep helps recovery from POIS.
  The 3rd reason is that no one has found immunoglubin E (IgE antibodies) related to semen in POIS patients.
  The 4th reason is that the symptoms of POIS do not match MCAS.
  The 5th reason is that there are other more likely explainations for the inflammation.
With that said, my understanding of the available data will be incomplete. Also, if new medical data is published or posted, there is still the possibility that these reasons could be disproved. But I think the only way to disprove these reasons is with medical data.

  I do not have a fixed idea or theory of POIS that I believe in. As new medical data becomes available, my understanding changes. Before I post anything to the Forum, I always check the latest (published and forum) POIS medical data, and if there is anything in the data that is not consistent with my understanding, I change my thinking and opinions to fit the data.

  As a matter of principle, I try not to justify any idea or hypothesis using data. Instead, it seems more helpful to use POISer medical data and standard ideas from immunology to create hypotheses and also test (try to disprove) old hypotheses using newer POISer medical data. I only post an idea if I am unable to disprove it myself. The hope is that someone else will test/disprove the idea using data that I do not have, and by process-of-elimination rule out the hypotheses. This could allow the community to focus on improving the collective understanding and developing evidence-based treatments. But this approach is a personal preference and not necessarily the best way.
  I have been looking at your post on Parameter input from members (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2660.msg23425#msg23425) for ideas on which test could rule out certain potential causes of POIS. My strategy is to do process of elimination to rule out certain causes. I do not want to prove the correct cause. I will rather try to disprove the wrong causes.

  Some may argue that much of the POISer data is incomplete, biased, spurious or unreliable. And this is a valid argument. So I try to take this into account, but biases from the data can still affect my opinions. Also, I have a personal preference for using standard (or textbook) immunology principles for interpreting the medical data. However, some scientist prefer to use newer experimental ideas of immunology. Both ways are valid as long as the resulting hypotheses can be tested.
  I hope this explains any bias that I may have in testing the MCAS hypothesis and why I give these 5 reasons for not associating MCAS with POIS. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I'm sure mast cells play some role as part of the immune system. Keep up your good work in investigating POIS!

Merry Christmas and have a happy new year.
Thanks Nas! The same to you. Have a blessed and wonderful year! :)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on December 31, 2018, 06:35:41 PM
Thanks Nas! The same to you. Have a blessed and wonderful year! :)
Thanks again Nanna! You too! :)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on January 01, 2019, 06:04:47 PM
Hi, I would only add my experience about vasodilatation and POIS. Since my POIS symptoms became stronger one of them is vasodilatation. When my POIS becomes stronger I also feel that all my vessels all arround the body are bigger.

Not only that, a varicocele appears on my left side testicles( varicocele is a varicose on the testicle).

And even more, I can say without any doubt. That there is a direct relationship between the strength of my POIS symptoms and the size of that varicocele. That is to say. The stronger my POIS symptoms are the bigger my varicocele becomes... And viceversa, the lighter my POIS symptoms are the smaller my varicocele becomes. In the moments I did not felt any POIS symptoms the varicocele disappears completely. I suffer POIS about 5 years ago. Before POIS I never had a varicocele. It just appeared when POIS appeared. At the same time.

So, I would say that in my case. POIS and vasodilatation are strongly related. And that I would like to test if my histamine level in blood is high when varicocele is present or POIS symptoms are stronger.

I'm fully convinced that POIS can be explained by one of these possibilities:

-POIS is an expression of MCAS (Mast Cell Activation Syndrome)
-POIS is a result of a blood flow issue with vasodilation being the one big problem.
-POIS occurs because there is some glutamate receptor overstimulation.
-POIS happens after levels of acetylcholine in sex arousal gets too high and then too low.

Please, could you share more of your symptoms?
I'm generally thinking that there is an over stimulated hormone associated with sex that both triggers Mast Cells and causes PE. Any suggestions on what can it be?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on January 01, 2019, 10:43:45 PM
I'm generally thinking that there is an over stimulated hormone associated with sex that both triggers Mast Cells and causes PE. Any suggestions on what can it be?
Glutamate and acetylcholine both have the ability to stimulate the production of nitric oxide (NO). NO is responsible for vasodilation in the penis (erection) and the bodybuilder veins (exercise pump). NO has hormone-like signaling properties in the cardiovascular system. Prostaglandins like PGE2 is another option. Just throwing out ideas. There could be better ideas.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on January 11, 2019, 11:31:08 AM
Hi Nana1 thanks a lot.
Because of this link (post on botom) here and ragarding to symptomes i conect this posible viral couse to some of us. VAGUS nerve palsy coused by viral infections is rare. I hawe sypmtomes of dysphonia, dysphagia and i found this conection.

See - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11551239

Interesting paper HOD.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on January 22, 2019, 01:41:08 AM
   "Here, we demonstrate that a highly stressful event in the absence of systemic inflammation, as observed in patients with acute myocardial infarction, leads to the development of an active HCMV infection in latently infected patients.

Elucidating the molecular mechanism of virus activation, we could show that catecholamines directly stimulate the HCMV immediate-early (IE) enhancer/promoter in monocytic cells via beta-2 adrenergic receptors...

...Epinephrine also enhanced HCMV gene expression in infected THP-1 cells...

...These data suggest that HCMV, like HSV-1 and VZV, can be (re)activated under stress conditions."

-A novel link between stress and human cytomegalovirus (HCMV) infection: sympathetic hyperactivity stimulates HCMV activation (S Prosch, et al., 2000) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10873779)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Hopeoneday on January 22, 2019, 07:59:31 AM
That lead me to thik that in recowered fase, contsant and enormes amount of cronic
stress, play big part in pois, always in inflamatory state.
Nana, i agre here. But i also think that genetic factor play in BIG
(MAYBE ALL), from there all
those stresors ,inflamatory "chemicals" has been realesing in body constantly,
on arosaul, sex X20 more then on normall response.
If enzyms feilure is there, and i reposted recently some genetics test,
body is unable to regulate or produce in properly whey
some neurotransmiters and hormones.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on January 22, 2019, 09:45:53 AM
   "Elucidating the molecular mechanism of virus activation, we could show that catecholamines directly stimulate the HCMV immediate-early (IE) enhancer/promoter in monocytic cells via beta-2 adrenergic receptors...
The β2AR is an interesting target. The problem however is finding a highly selective β2AR antagonist. I did a quick search but can't find any aside from experimental ones. Some relative selectivities are depicted below to give people an idea:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1576008/table/tbl2/?report=objectonly

The selectivity of β-adrenoceptor antagonists at the human β1, β2 and β3 adrenoceptors (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1576008/)

The same author wrote a similar article about β-adrenoceptor agonists, maybe not relevant but the almost identical title could confuse people:
The selectivity of β-adrenoceptor agonists at human β1-, β2- and β3-adrenoceptors (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2936015/)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on January 22, 2019, 10:02:31 AM
   "Elucidating the molecular mechanism of virus activation, we could show that catecholamines directly stimulate the HCMV immediate-early (IE) enhancer/promoter in monocytic cells via beta-2 adrenergic receptors...
The β2AR is an interesting target. The problem however is finding a highly selective β2AR antagonist. I did a quick search but can't find any aside from experimental ones. Some selectivities are depicted below to give people an idea:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1576008/table/tbl2/?report=objectonly

The selectivity of β-adrenoceptor antagonists at the human β1, β2 and β3 adrenoceptors (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1576008/)
The propanolol seems nice. However I did try it many times without any seeming benefit. Infact it could worsen POTS.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on January 24, 2019, 01:45:07 PM
The propranolol seems nice. However I did try it many times without any seeming benefit. In fact it could worsen POTS.
  I could be wrong, but I thought I read somewhere that norepinephrine had a higher affinity for alpha receptors and epinephrine had a greater affinity for beta receptors. Herpes simplex viruses seem to prefer autonomic neurons expressing alpha-2 adrenergic receptors. You may want to get virus tested (https://www.findlabtest.com/) before experimenting alpha/beta inhibitors.
(https://i.imgur.com/X7ZbPoQ.png)
  "An increase in cAMP production has been shown to reactivate HSV-1 from quiescence in embryonic superior cervical ganglia (SCG) neurons (51). The adenylate cyclase enzymes are optimally stimulated by AR β-2 treated with 100 nM epinephrine (52). ...the increase in HSV-1 DNA replication at 0.01 μM and 0.1 μM of epinephrine most likely represents stimulation of AR β-2 receptors, while the increase in HSV-1 DNA replication at 10 μM epinephrine is a result of stimulation of AR α-2 receptors. ...these effects occurred in sympathetic neurons, rather than sensory neurons, further implicating the autonomic nervous system in HSV pathogenesis."
-Stress Hormones Epinephrine and Corticosterone Selectively Modulate HSV-1 and HSV-2 Productive Infection in Adult Sympathetic, but not Sensory, Neurons (AM Ives, AS Bertke, 2017) (https://jvi.asm.org/content/jvi/early/2017/04/06/JVI.00582-17.full.pdf)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on March 01, 2019, 11:33:06 AM
This paper talks about how viral latency could sensitize the human host to non-viral (self)antigens (pois?). It also talks about age-dependent latency effects: Immune Modulation During Latent Herpesvirus Infection (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3243940/)

Virus-induced dysfunction of the endocrine system:
''Furthermore, of essential importance is the fact that viral infection of the testicular cells may result not only in changes in testicular function, a serious risk for the fertility and general health of the individual (such as a fall in testosteronemia leading to cachexia)''
Viruses in the Mammalian Male Genital Tract and Their Effects on the Reproductive System (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC99025/)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on March 01, 2019, 10:45:39 PM
This paper talks about how viral latency could sensitize the human host to non-viral (self)antigens (pois?)
...Immune Modulation During Latent Herpesvirus Infection (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3243940/)

Virus-induced dysfunction of the endocrine system:
...Viruses in the Mammalian Male Genital Tract and Their Effects on the Reproductive System (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC99025/)
Thanks Muon for sharing these papers! I haven't finished reading them yet, but what I have read so far seems quite interesting!
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on March 03, 2019, 06:34:06 PM
Perhaps it's an idea to check your IL-8 serum level, nanna:

Potential involvement of IL-8 in the pathogenesis of human cytomegalovirus infection (https://jlb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/jlb.64.1.62)

Varicella-zoster virus infection induces the secretion of interleukin-8 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00430-007-0060-3)

Proinflammatory cytokines and matrix metalloproteinases in CSF of patients with VZV vasculopathy (https://nn.neurology.org/content/3/4/e246.short)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on March 05, 2019, 08:59:02 PM
Perhaps it's an idea to check your IL-8 serum level, nanna:...
Muon, I agree that IL-8 is a good cytokine/chemokine to measure, not just because of the connection to infection but also because IL-8 is a tissue-specific cytokine. Most tissues in the body do not release IL-8. IL-8 is release from macrophage cells, but when it comes to tissues in the body, IL-8 is only released from epithelial cells, airway smooth muscle cells and endothelial cells (Interleukin 8 - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interleukin_8)). We could rule out airway smooth muscle cells by testing for creatine kinase. So this would mean that if during a certain time period macrophage activity is normal but IL-8 levels are elevated, then the IL-8 is likely coming from the vasculature (blood vessels and skin). I think tissue-specific cytokines could aide in narrowing down the location(s) of POIS in the body. Also, some pathogens can only infect (and establish latency) in certain tissues and cell types. So knowing what cell types the IL-8 (or other cytokines) is coming from could rule out (or implicate) potential types of infection.

  With that said, I have looked up the prices for several cytokine test that I am interested in (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2660.msg23437#msg23437), but I do not have money to invest in these at this time. Thanks for the suggestion though!
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Nas on March 06, 2019, 09:01:51 AM
IL-8 is only released from epithelial cells, airway smooth muscle cells and endothelial cells (Interleukin 8 - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interleukin_8)). We could rule out airway smooth muscle cells by testing for creatine kinase. So this would mean that if during a certain time period macrophage activity is normal but IL-8 levels are elevated, then the IL-8 is likely coming from the vasculature (blood vessels).
According to the Auto-immune theory this could be produced by the Urethra.
I think tissue-specific cytokines could aide in narrowing down the location(s) of POIS in the body.
Sounds great! Doesn't Muon have some of his Cytokines tested? You can start from there!
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on March 06, 2019, 01:20:08 PM
Ah ok you don't have the money, fair enough. Yes I do like to test GM-CSF and the IFN-gamma inducing factor IL-12 (and IL-18) from your list. The problem however is that those tests are batch analysis tests, which are too expensive. For joint pain induced by POIS I have my eyes on MMPs, GM-CFS or Substance P. The IL-8 might also be signals from damaged cells, perhaps as collateral damage from POIS. I believe epithelial cells release this cytokine as a danger signal when damaged. I also want to know if my BDNF serum is low (depression, memory issues). BDNF serum levels are proportional to BDNF levels in the brain in animals. I will leave this thread alone for now I have nothing else to say about herpes for the moment.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on March 18, 2019, 11:36:36 PM
  "Hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) and sympathetic-adrenal-medullary (SAM) axes activation during spaceflight occurs as indicated by increased levels of stress hormones including cortisol, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), epinephrine, and norepinephrine. These changes, along with a decreased cell mediated immunity, contribute to the reactivation of latent herpes viruses in astronauts...
  Astronauts shed Epstein-Barr virus (EBV), varicella-zoster virus (VZV), and herpes-simplex-1 (HSV-1) in saliva and cytomegalovirus (CMV) in urine. Larger quantities and increased frequencies for these viruses were found during spaceflight as compared to before or after flight samples and their matched healthy controls...
  These findings coincided with the immune system dysregulation observed in astronauts from shuttle and ISS missions."


-Herpes Virus Reactivation in Astronauts During Spaceflight and Its Application on Earth (SK Mehta, et. al., 2019) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6374706/)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on July 28, 2019, 06:23:11 PM
Cytomegalovirus in Semen - Persistence and Demonstration in Extracellular Fluids (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM197407182910303)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on August 08, 2019, 05:01:26 PM
Interesting article Muon! :)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on August 08, 2019, 05:03:06 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/57VPVG0.png)
"Case 1
  The first case is that of a 57-year-old male... Over the 6 years preceding presentation, he had noticed a gradual onset of symptoms following orgasm. The patient describes experiencing severe physical and mental tiredness and lethargy soon after orgasm. He also complained of flu-like symptoms with myalgia, especially in his legs, excessive sweating, and poor concentration with mental dullness. These symptoms were at times associated with right-sided headache. The collection of symptoms lasts up to 3 days, during which the patient feels that his ability to perform his normal physical and mental activity is impaired.

...After engaging in sexual activity without having orgasm, he does not experience any symptoms. He is a physically active and fit man who exercises regularly, and is able to ride a bike for several hours a week. He does not report any similar symptoms while exercising. The only other situation in which he has experienced similar symptoms is following excessive alcohol ingestion.

...The patient denies any sexual or genital pain. There is no history or clinical features of psychiatric illness, and specifically he has never been diagnosed with depression, anxiety, or psychosis.
...His past medical history includes irritable bowel syndrome and mild hypercholesterolemia.

...The nature of his symptoms appeared flu-like, and so we asked the patient to trial a prophylactic dose of potent nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medication, which can be effective at reducing the myalgia associated with viral illness. Diclofenac 75 mg was prescribed, to be taken 1-2 hours prior to sexual activity with orgasm, and to continue twice daily for 24-48 hours. This intervention provided consistent improvement (up to 80% better as reported by the patient) in the severity of Case 1's symptoms; thus, the patient now feels able to increase the frequency of his sexual activity from twice a month to four times a month."

...In Case 1, there appears to be a consistent history of symptoms with no organic, psychological, or psychiatric cause identified despite extensive investigation. The history of symptoms described could have fitted with several different etiologies, for example, complex partial seizures, transient arrhythmias, and autoimmune disorder. If this had been the explanation for the individual's symptoms, abnormal results would be anticipated at investigation. As this was not the case, only the history could provide key insights into the likely cause. The symptoms sounded similar to those experienced during cytokine release, for example, when individuals are suffering from viral illness (6), which prompted a trial of NSAID to good effect."

-From: Ashby J, and Goldmeier D. Postorgasm illness syndrome: A spectrum of illnesses. J Sex Med 2010;7:1976-1981. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20214722)

(6) Descotes J, Vial T. Flu-like syndrome and cytokines. Cytokines in human health: Immunotoxicol Pathol Therap Appl Apr 23, 2007:193-204. (https://link.springer.com/protocol/10.1007/978-1-59745-350-9_10)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on September 21, 2019, 01:40:50 PM
  IDO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoleamine_2,3-dioxygenase) functions as an infection sensor. During a viral or bacterial infection, IDO expression changes rapidly to either activate or suppress the innate immune system.
  Serotonin release increases the activity of the innate immune system (NK cells, neutrophils, macrophages, il-2, il-12, il-17).
IDO-kynurenine-aryl hydrocarbon receptor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryl_hydrocarbon_receptor) induction suppresses autoimmunity and the innate immune system using Tregs and il-10, etc...

More details can be found here:
New Insights into IDO Biology in Bacterial and Viral Infections (2014) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4128074/)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on September 21, 2019, 02:22:48 PM
Yea I just posted something about Diclofenac and the IDO pathway here, just what this paper described: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3014.msg30997#msg30997
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: b_jim on September 21, 2019, 10:39:05 PM
According to a french doctor, all Sibo/dysbiosis start in the mouth.
Mouth MUST be clean to have a clean digest system...
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: drop247 on October 23, 2019, 10:25:50 AM
St. John's Wort can work as an antiviral:

Quote
Antiviral activity has been reported for influenza, herpes simplex types 1 and 2 (HSV-1, HSV-2), Sindbis virus, poliovirus, retrovirus infection in vitro and in vivo, murine cytomegalovirus, and hepatitis C.Bombardelli 1995, Jacobson 2001, M?ller 2004, Newall 1996, Upton 1997 Hypericin and pseudohypericin exert unique effective antiviral actions, possibly because of nonspecific associations with cellular and viral membranes. Hypericin and pseudohypericin inhibit a variety of encapsulated viruses, including HIV.Upton 1997

https://www.drugs.com/npp/st-john-s-wort.html#Bombardelli.1995 (https://www.drugs.com/npp/st-john-s-wort.html#Bombardelli.1995)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: drop247 on October 23, 2019, 06:49:45 PM
Olive Leaf Extract fight Herpes Type 1.

https://academicjournals.org/journal/AJMR/article-full-text-pdf/E09C2B158944 (https://academicjournals.org/journal/AJMR/article-full-text-pdf/E09C2B158944)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on November 03, 2019, 10:36:26 PM
Olive Leaf Extract fight Herpes Type 1.
Interesting article drop247. But what I found most interesting is that the anti-viral medication Acyclovir was safer than olive leaf extract.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on November 03, 2019, 10:44:31 PM
"The reactivation of HCMV can also be achieved through stress catecholamines, epinephrine, and norepinephrine, increasing concentrations of cyclic AMP, thus leading to IE enhancer/promoter stimulation (207 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10873779?dopt=Abstract)). Similarly, proinflammatory prostaglandins stimulated in the course of various inflammatory processes also promote viral reactivation through the cyclic AMP pathway (131 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9457465?dopt=Abstract))." -Immunobiology of Human Cytomegalovirus: from Bench to Bedside (2009) (https://cmr.asm.org/content/22/1/76)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Rinat on December 29, 2019, 09:53:10 AM
Hi all. I finished my niacin and decided to buy excedrin. I took it 2 hours before release. It have never been better!!! I think it is the best treatment for me(but niacin works good too,may be 80%).
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on December 29, 2019, 10:30:42 AM
Hmmm weird niacin (as in flushing) and ASA exhibit opposite effects regarding PGD2 and metabolites. Must be some other mechanism, perhaps the secondary role of serotonin release?

Niacin-induced ''Flush'' Involves Release of Prostaglandin D2 from Mast Cells and Serotonin from Platelets: Evidence from Human Cells in Vitro and an Animal Model (http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/327/3/665)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niacin#Facial_flushing
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Rinat on December 29, 2019, 10:54:50 AM
I want to add that i did not combine niacin and excedrine.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on January 03, 2020, 02:41:43 PM
Hi all. I finished my niacin and decided to buy excedrin. I took it 2 hours before release. It have never been better!!! I think it is the best treatment for me(but niacin works good too,may be 80%).
Congratulation Rinat on your recent trial of excedrin. And thanks for sharing the timing you used before your release. That was very smart! :)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on March 03, 2020, 11:16:41 AM
Natural killer (NK) cells (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNP1EAYLhOs) are your friend against viral infection.
(https://i.imgur.com/ygd1JeC.jpg)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: demografx on March 03, 2020, 03:26:24 PM
nanna1, I love your graphics!
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Spartak on March 04, 2020, 01:48:46 PM
Natural killer (NK) cells (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNP1EAYLhOs) are your friend against viral infection.
(https://i.imgur.com/ygd1JeC.jpg)
How to trigger them to produce more?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on March 04, 2020, 11:29:04 PM
Natural killer (NK) cells (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNP1EAYLhOs) are your friend against viral infection...
How to trigger them to produce more?
Hi Spartak,
  I discussed some ways to increase NK cell activity here: Immune Competence Therapy (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31893#msg31893). ImmunoComplex by Quality of Life actually has some good research showing immune supporting properties.
II. immune activation stack (cycle - 6 days on, 4 days off)
...
ImmunoComplex stack (https://www.amazon.com/Premium-AHCC-Complex-ImmunoComplex-Andrographis/dp/B00H4GXZUU/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=ahcc&qid=1575303019&sr=8-7) (15 - 20 min before each meal / three times daily, requires food)
  • active hexose correlated compounds (AHCC)
  • zinc methionine
  • copper oxide
  • vitamin C
  • vitamin D3
  • Andrographis
beta-glucan (1g) (https://www.amazon.com/Bulksupplements-Beta-Glucan-Powder-Grams/dp/B01BMUZGSM/ref=pd_lutyp_crtyp_simh_2_2/143-2693895-0728948?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01BMUZGSM&pd_rd_r=1e0dc790-dcca-4f93-87e4-ec7f4d021889&pd_rd_w=RSzOx&pd_rd_wg=KMp6o&pf_rd_p=7dbb7d55-f8a0-4d7b-84e2-fe1c6913e19d&pf_rd_r=REJ27T1DPHF2N73QRA5K&refRID=REJ27T1DPHF2N73QRA5K&th=1)
copper gluconate (2mg, empty stomach)
...
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on March 17, 2020, 10:15:43 AM
  I found a few articles showing indomethacin has potent effect on inhibiting previous coronaviruses (CoV), such as SARS-CoV, CCoV and MHV. These articles do not discuss the novel coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2, formerly called 2019-nCov) or the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). This post is for information and discussion purposes only. Washing hands, not touching your face (eyes, nose, mouth), and maintaining social distance are still the most effective means for avoiding viral infection (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/prevention.html). Prevention is better than cure. Please follow the instructions for your local authorities and health care professionals.

Indomethacin was shown to potently inhibit SARS-CoV and CCov:
"...we found that indomethacin (INDO) has a potent direct antiviral activity against the coronaviruses SARS-CoV and canine coronavirus (CCoV). Indomethacin does not affect coronavirus binding or entry into host cells, but acts by blocking viral RNA synthesis at cytoprotective doses. This effect is independent of cyclooxygenase (COX-1) inhibition...the antiviral activity cannot be mimicked by the potent (COX-1) inhibitor aspirin, which has no effect on
either CCoV or SARS-CoV replication Indomethacin's potent antiviral activity (>1,000-fold reduction in virus yield) was confirmed in vivo in CCoV-infected dogs."

-Indomethacin has a potent antiviral activity against SARS coronavirus (Amici C, et. al., 2006) (https://www.intmedpress.com/servefile.cfm?suid=35d8dc5e-70f4-491f-acad-e35f99be9211)

The hepatitis coronavirus was found to be dependent on prostaglandin production:
"Here we investigated the role of COXs in the mouse hepatitis coronavirus (MHV) infection cycle...COX inhibitors reduced mouse hepatitis coronavirus infection...COX activity appears to be required for efficient MHV replication, providing a potential target for anti-coronaviral therapy...Similarly, rotavirus replication was also negatively affected by the addition of COX inhibitors early, but not late in the infection cycle...COX activity appears to be required for efficient MHV replication, providing a potential target for anti-coronaviral therapy."
-Cyclooxygenase activity is important for efficient replication of mouse hepatitis virus at an early stage of infection (2007) (https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-422X-4-55)

Coronaviruses (like most other viruses) up-regulates COX-2:
"Coronaviruses (CoVs) constitute a family of enveloped, (RNA) viruses... two (proteins) from the SARS-CoV were shown to induce the expression of COX-2... elevated levels of PGE2 were found in the blood of SARS-CoV-infected individuals, suggesting a role for COXs and prostaglandins in CoV pathogenesis."
-Cyclooxygenase activity is important for efficient replication of mouse hepatitis virus at an early stage of infection (2007) (https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-422X-4-55)

However, indomethacin is most effective as an antiviral when it is timed prior to being exposed (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg26349;topicseen#msg26349). This means knowing the time window of virus exposure is critical:
"...MHV infection was significantly reduced, as measured by the indirect IFA described above, if indomethacin was added up to 1 h after the cells were placed at 37 C (body-temperature). The maximum inhibitory effect was obtained when indomethacin was added immediately after the cells were placed at 37 C. No significant inhibition of the infection was observed if indomethacin was added 2 h after the cells were placed at 37 C."
-Cyclooxygenase activity is important for efficient replication of mouse hepatitis virus at an early stage of infection (2007) (https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-422X-4-55)

The antiviral activity of indomethacin is not unique to coronaviruses. Many other viruses are dependent on prostaglandins for their replication such as influenza, HIV, rotoviruses and herpes viruses.

Indomethacin also enhances general antiviral immunity. It is know to increase Natural Killer cell number and activity. (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2432415), Ref2 (https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpregu.1999.276.5.R1496), Ref3 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01741405)).

There is still no officially sanctioned (federally approved) therapy or vaccine for SARS-CoV-2 (the virus for COVID-19). Currently, only the antiviral drug Remdesivir (by Gilead Sciences) has been tested in humans with some effectiveness and safety. In the USA, the Center for Disease Control is advising to wash hands regularly, avoid public gatherings and maintain 4 - 6 feet of social distance.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Hopeoneday on March 17, 2020, 04:02:25 PM
Hi Nanna, what are you think about antimalarics medicines wich is "suscesifully" used against new corona?
I did  tryed last year for a test ("for pois patogen"), a kinin tonic , wich hawe no medicall effect but i tryed enyway.
Is it worth to try antimalaric drug for pois, i can see it is in use as antiarrhythmic?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on March 21, 2020, 04:40:04 AM
Hi Hopeoneday,

  I do not see any advantage to hydroxychloroquine over indomethacin. Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) is a type of bleaching/oxidizing agent similar to (chlorine bleach) that suppresses the immune system.  Taking HCQ longterm has similar effects as drinking dilute chlorine bleach, including bleaching of the eyes and hair color (Hydroxychloroquine Side_effects (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine#Side_effects)).
  Because of its chemical structure, HQC has limited/reduced solubility into certain tissues and cell structures which makes it "safer" than regular bleach and chloroquine. The disinfectant Benzalkonium Chloride is also a bleaching/oxidizer that does not penetrate some skin layers, so it is considered "safe".

  There are some pathogens that hydroxychloroquine can oxidize directly (and thus kill), but it is not effective against herpes. In fact, long-term use of hydroxychloroquine makes herpes worse (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28057661), Ref2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26946984)) because of immune suppression. In vitro studies suggest that indomethacin (IC50 = 2uM) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25856684) is more effective against viruses than hydroxychloroquine (EC50 = 4uM) (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-020-0156-0) (smaller number is better, see IC50 post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2597.msg22561#msg22561)). Indomethacin has direct antiviral effects and it boost antiviral immune cells (post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg33653#msg33653)). If you have a life threatening disease like malaria or COVID-19 then HQC maybe safe relative to those diseases. But in general, I do not currently see an advantage to taking hydroxychloroquine vs. taking indomethacin. But I could be wrong. I have been wrong many times. In any case, if using indomethacin, it should always be taken with selenium (i.e. selenomethionine) to prevent gastric side-effect. A little caffeine (< 100mg, green tea) can reduce vascular side-effects.

Drug detox antioxidants:
---N-acetylcysteine (1.2g)
---selenomethionine (200 micrograms)

...research indicates that selenomethionine detoxifies indomethacin (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21532324), Ref2 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jfbc.12808), Ref3 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23456451)) and N-acetylcyteine detoxifies acetaminophen/Tylenol (Ref4 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3614100/), Ref5 (https://poisoncontrol.utah.edu/newsletters/pdfs/toxicology-today-archive/Vol7_No1.pdf), Ref6 (https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2006/021539s004lbl.pdf)). In adddition to inhibiting NF-kB, selenomethione and N-acetylcyteine boost glutathoine and should be taken to minimized potential side-effects...

References:
1. Risk and severity of herpes zoster in patients with rheumatoid arthritis receiving different immunosuppressive medications: a case-control study in Asia. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28057661)
2. Immunosuppressive medication use and risk of herpes zoster (HZ) in patients with systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE): A nationwide case-control study. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26946984)
3. Accidental hydroxychloroquine overdose resulting in neurotoxic vestibulopathy (https://casereports.bmj.com/content/2017/bcr-2016-218786)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: berlin1984 on May 24, 2020, 02:14:07 PM
Cross-posting from the gum disease / Gingivitis / Parodontitis thread related to Alzheimer's:

Apparantly all kind of pathogens can leak down from the mouth :-(

Personally, I have an inflamed/painful mouth feeling one day(?) after O.

Independant of that I also have diagnosed peridontal disease without pain (and bleeding gums if I don't take care).

As I'm currently quite hooked on nanna1's theories about latent viruses (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.0) (and immune activation (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.0)), I thought I'd post the herpes links:

"Reactivation of HCMV in periodontitis lesions tends to be associated with progressing periodontal disease. Herpesvirus-associated periodontitis lesions harbor elevated levels of periodontopathic bacteria, including Actinobacillus actinomycetemcomitans, Porphyromonas gingivalis, Bacteriodes forsythus, Prevotella intermedia, Prevotella nigrescens and Treponema denticola. It may be that active periodontal herpesvirus infection impairs periodontal defenses, thereby permitting subgingival overgrowth of periodontopathic bacteria. Alteration between latent and active herpesvirus infection in the periodontium might lead to transient local immunosuppression and explain in part the episodic progressive nature of human periodontitis"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11155159/

"It has been suggested that the coexistence of these viruses and possibly of other viruses with periodontal bacteria and host immune responses can be seen as a precarious balance that has the potential to lead to periodontal destruction."
"Some periodontal bacteria can reactivate a latent herpes virus."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4774289/

"the available data suggest that periodontitis occurs more frequently and progresses more rapidly in herpesvirus-infected than in non-infected periodontal sites."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15553977/

I find it amusing that https://www.dentistryiq.com/dental-hygiene/patient-education/article/16360043/4-supplements-that-dental-professionals-need-to-discuss-with-periodontal-patients recommends Echinacea as "Inhibits enzymes that break down tissue." even though the method of action might then be (also) the anti-viral properties of Echinacea.

For my own health, I'm now trying some candy with Lactobacillus Reuteri that is supposed to help with the gums by overriding the pathogenic community in the mouth. (independent of trying nanna1's immune activation stack)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on May 25, 2020, 01:28:03 PM
Dumping this here for the anti-viral properties, Table 1:

The Role of Quercetin, Flavonols and Flavones in Modulating Inflammatory Cell Function (https://sci-hub.tw/https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/iadt/2010/00000009/00000004/art00006)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: swell on May 25, 2020, 02:22:13 PM
Very nice reference, I like the way they compare different flavanols.  Quercetin AND Luteolin (specially) has a nice effect on me, whereas Fisetin (also cited in this research) somehow has an oppositely negative effect on me.  I get induced into temporary POIS for about 24 hrs after taking one dosage only.  Anyone else has this effect from Fisetin?

Dumping this here for the anti-viral properties, Table 1:

The Role of Quercetin, Flavonols and Flavones in Modulating Inflammatory Cell Function (https://sci-hub.tw/https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/iadt/2010/00000009/00000004/art00006)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: berlin1984 on June 06, 2020, 01:12:54 PM
Dumping this as it would link the (latent) virus theory with the mast cell / histamine theory:

https://www.histamine-sensitivity.com/histamine-intol-viral-infections-01-18.html
"What can be done for a person with a histamine intolerance who has responded well to diet change, but still suffers episodes when exposed to a virus like the common cold? I don't know if this histamine over-reaction would be gut related. Episodes consist of severe nausea and vomiting for 3-4 days, copiously runny nose, flushing, rash, rapid heart rate, and anxiety. "
"Recently, it has been shown that mast cells can be directly activated in response to influenza a virus (IAV), releasing mediators such as histamine, proteases, leukotrienes, inflammatory cytokines, and antiviral chemokines,"
"it would be logical to assume that excess histamine is impacting negatively on your body?s ability to fight the infection.  This negative effect is probably only relevant to viral infections; bacterial and parasitic infections should not be similarly affected.  The question that cannot be answered is whether your long-standing histamine intolerance, which is likely to be due to an inherent histamine-degrading enzyme (probably DAO) deficiency, is resulting in even higher histamine levels.  This of course would increase the severity of your infection-associated symptoms as well as triggering histamine related effects in other organ systems [please refer to my Guides for details about symptoms of histamine sensitivity], exactly as you report. "In the meantime I would suggest that the most effective approach when you have a viral infection would be to carefully follow a histamine-restricted diet, (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=820.0) take supplemental DAO before each meal and at bedtime to break down any residual histamine before it can enter the body, and take antihistamines to reduce the severity of your symptoms"


^^ Maybe this is just stating the obvious though for people more into the subject than me.

My thought: Person consumes too much histamine via food and also histamine liberators. Has problems with DAO (histamine intolerance (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2061.0)). Has leaky gut (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3098.0), making histamine passing through to bloodstream. Then: Histamine is released at orgasm. Virus is somehow re-activating and does it's thing, maybe involving more histamine.
All this histamine overload leads to problems.

Clues why I think this theory makes sense: Check the list at https://alisonvickery.com.au/anti-histamine-foods/ .. it mentions a lot of things POISers take or recommend. (It even mentions the recently mentioned hard drugs like Apple ;-) )
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 11
Post by: berlin1984 on June 08, 2020, 07:39:57 AM
sodium ascorbate (intravenous vitamin C):
see Long-term herpes relief and permanent virus removal strategies (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23776#msg23776)

I had an appoint at a German naturopath (with specialization in digestion and TCM).
The reason I wanted to go there was just the IV VC, but for I guess legal reasons she also insisted to hear about my problems first, which I think was good.

She was quite understanding of my problems (general weakness at certain points during the day, digestive problems sometimes, POIS). She didn't know the word POIS but was completely understanding about it (empathic women ftw, much better experience than when I went to male urologist). She did some things like checking pulse, making photo of my tongue to deduce health issues from there.
She thinks I have red small dots/spots which indicate a resident pathogen (she explicitely mention EBV, but could be anything else and probably not so relevant which one it is).
She also thinks my gut has some malicious bacteria and recommends probiotics (and getting stool analysis which I don't want to do yet for financial reasons).
She also recommended an algae based Omega3 supplement.
She thinks my gum problem (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2904.msg34461#msg34461)s are also very related (and not normal for my age).

In the chinese medicine way of looking at it, she thinks I have a weak kidney (see this post, although she did not mention that word, maybe it's the same (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3297.msg34251))  that needs to be strengthened by getting rid of pathogens, good sleep, good diet, no sugar etc. (She also thinks me not eating wheat is good).

She ordered an oil for me that I'm recommended to take. The ingredients are (from googleing, I did not get the oil yet... translated to English) :
Rizol Kappa Oil (Ozonated Castor Oil, Ozonated Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Wormwood Oil, Clove Oil, Walnut Oil, Black Cumin Oil, Thyme Oil, Majoran Oil)
Apparantly the goal of that oil is to kill off bad gut bacteria by exposing them to the oxygen of that oil.

The IV VC was not so interesting during it (I didn't feel much, I did not feel the inflammation relief that nanna1 described, maybe because I don't have inflammation on that day). But afterwards I felt very nice for some hours, like a happy content MDMA afterglow. However I also feel something cleaning up in my intestines (now at home, not during). My gut is rumbling and I sometimes shiver. (Nothing negative, I'm happy this happens)

I'm tempted to book another IV. Thanks nanna1 for recommending it!
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on June 10, 2020, 08:53:09 PM
That's cool berlin1984! Keep updating us on your journey to better health!  :)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: berlin1984 on June 24, 2020, 02:13:25 PM
Here is my update :-)

I had my second Vitamin C IV (7.5g like last time), this time combined with Vitamin Bs.. This time I didn't have the happy-content afterglow feeling afterwards, possibly because there was no deficiency anymore, just the other effects. Or maybe the Vitamin Bs mask it somehow.
On the day after, again I had some die-off feelings. (which is good!)

I also started with the Rizol oil therapy. As I wrote, it's about ozenoated oil going into your body (together with the essential oils) and giving off the surplus O and killing of pathogens by that. It seems to be a common practice for the "healing practitioners" in Germany, maybe not much known in other countries. ("Rizol ?l nach Dr. Steidl").
Those English resources might help: https://www.aloeride.com/the-use-and-usefulness-of-para-rizol-gamma-and-para-rizol-zeta/ and https://www.betterhealthguy.com/images/stories/PDF/LymeProtocol08.pdf
The first drop was really intense. I could feel weird shivers and weird feelins in the gut immediatly. Both from the strong essential oil smell and maybe from the ozone. Now after some days of usage, I can easily handle more drops. Possibly because the drops don't hit the gut pathogens anymore, but have to be absorbed first and need to work in the body.

Related: What I found interesting is that the Italians see ozone therapy as cure for CFS.
https://www.pagepressjournals.org/index.php/ozone/article/view/7812/7465
Note that this is about a dialysis on your own blood, so it is much much more invasive (and stronger) than just swallowing an oil.
Something similar explained in the blog here: https://www.elizabethrider.com/my-epstein-barr-treatment-natural-healing-protocol/
With unlimited money and limited patience, I'd the stuff there too.



She also thinks my gut has some malicious bacteria

To clarify on this, I asked "Assuming there is malicious bacteria/etc inside me, are they just in the gut?" she said definitely not, they can be anywhere, for example in the liver. And it doesn't have to be bacteria, it can be any other form too. In her view, everybody has a certain load of pathogens and it's the question of how/if the body can handle it. Same for having a certain maximum load of heavy metals that we can detox.

As of orgasms, to be honest I haven't tried many but from the ones I've tried I think the day-after symptoms are better. No headache. More stable mood. Quite a bit more energy. But I'm still not completely healed so I'm also not expecting too much yet.
It's also interesting to not have joint pain anymore.

(Also with big time distance from the oil, I'm taking a daily yoghurt. Seems to help also with general issues keeping some bad guys in control.)

(Yes I know that Herpes are virusses and I'm mixing things together here, but I really liked nanna1's term:
III. Broad Spectrum Pathogen load reduction
So I'm happy both the Rizol Oil and IV Vitamin C are broad in that regard.
 
If my post sounds too enthusiastic and optimist, don't worry I'll edit and correct it if I change my opinion in some weeks.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: berlin1984 on June 27, 2020, 08:42:37 AM
Found this blog comment by coincidence. It sounds intriguing..


Explaining ME/CFS? Prusty / Naviaux Study Ties Infections to Energy Breakdowns (https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2020/04/26/explaining-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-naviaux-prusty/)
Quote
Ric on April 27, 2020 at 10:28 pm
Cort,
I have both CFS and POIS. Both simultaneously onset same day
In 1993.
Post Orgasmic Syndrome is a NORD validated rare disease. Where men crash with severe CFS like symptoms for 2 to 5 days after every ejaculation takes place (does not matter how (sex, nocturnal emissions etc.)).

The symptoms are amazingly similar as as a bad CFS crash. But most men go back to higher plateau of functioning than people with CFS (unless they have both) in 2 to 5 days. For me 3.

Imagine the study gem this entails. The whole cycle ALWAYS happens. So it could show volumes if tracked daily monitoring multiple biomarkers.

Dr Maria Vera who works in Dr. Klimas office said to me ?EBV has an affinity for sexual organs like the testis?.

Light went on. These thousands of men could be the missing men in CFS! Testosterone goes down after ejaculation and it takes a few days to come back. The things that help them are exactly the same as what helps people with CFS. The similarities are perplexing. To the extreme that I have given them lots of good material from CFS that they use now to alleviate symptoms. Many are just waiting for the CFS cure with the hope it will somehow benefit them.

I have long suspected that herpes type virus are involved in POIS
. I came down with EBV then POIS + CFS simultaneously. So the link is there for me. I am not the only man who has both. Note that hormonal changes activate herpes viruses as well.

Studying this cohort could shed so much light into both CFS and POIS.

The problem I have is that few people with one label bother to look at the other. That is different they conjecture.

I have both and I believe they are one and the same. Except POIS. Is what these men call their short term CFS episodes.

More on POIS at

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php

Can you please consider taking a look bringing the group to researches attention? It could be the missing link in these diseases spectrum.

I don't know who this Ric is, but after reading nanna1's post about the NK cells, I had the same thoughts.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on July 04, 2020, 05:36:00 PM
ajs (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg416323;topicseen#msg416323)

"I'm a woman and I have pois so I personally know it has nothing to do with allergy to seamen....I have been reading since the beginning and I remember that girlwind was very irritated by the moderater and I agree his ego and wanting to be right all the time was annoying and I really wish she did not leave...my pois turned into chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia and I could not digest anything and went to get food tested and my back welted up to everything but my blood work showed no allergies to food...I do know that my pois started after getting shingles....all the testing I've done and the only thing they have found were very high levels of antibodies to three different viruses."

What are the other two besides VZV? Can anyone contact her at nakedscientist?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shingles
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: hurray on July 04, 2020, 06:31:53 PM
How does the theory deal with people who do not have any kind of herpes?

Do you need to have herpes to be diagnosed with POIS now?
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: berlin1984 on July 05, 2020, 02:34:08 AM
How does the theory deal with people who do not have any kind of herpes?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herpesviridae
"Herpesviridae is a large family of DNA viruses"
[..]
"More than 90% of adults have been infected with at least one of these, and a latent form of the virus remains in almost all humans who have been infected."

Do you need to have herpes to be diagnosed with POIS now?

No :-)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on July 06, 2020, 12:14:29 PM
Flavonoids: promising natural compounds against viral infections (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7087220/)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS: page 7
Post by: berlin1984 on July 10, 2020, 02:50:57 PM
  Substances like [...], celecoxib [...] do not directly scavenge ROS. However, they all have strong anti-oxidant effects [...]

"We don?t hear anything about Celecoxib as a virus fighter in ME/CFS, but some evidence suggests it could be efficacious against herpes simplex virus. The ability of COX-2 inhibitors to decrease prostaglandin production is believed to push the immune system towards a Th1 (antiviral) response and away from the Th2 response often found in ME/CFS."
http://simmaronresearch.com/tag/celebrex/

[ famciclovir + celecoxib drug combination] was efficacious and safe in treating symptoms of fibromyalgia, supporting the hypothesis that herpes virus infections may contribute to this syndrome. Improved retention rates, decreased adverse event rates, and evidence of efficacy on a broad spectrum of outcome measures are suggestive that IMC-1 may represent an effective, novel treatment for fibromyalgia.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5328426/

Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: romies on July 14, 2020, 11:49:33 AM
I have no idea whether my POIS is induced by herpes. but Celecoxib does wonders to my POIS symptoms if taken as part of a prepack.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on August 08, 2020, 05:46:51 AM
VEGF Upregulation in Viral Infections and Its Possible Therapeutic Implications (https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/19/6/1642/htm)

(https://www.mdpi.com/ijms/ijms-19-01642/article_deploy/html/images/ijms-19-01642-g001-550.jpg)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on August 13, 2020, 05:17:33 PM
VEGF Upregulation in Viral Infections and Its Possible Therapeutic Implications (https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/19/6/1642/htm)
Muon,
We need more POISer test data on human papillomavirus (HPV) to see if there are any correlations in the antibody titer or PCR.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on August 13, 2020, 05:48:32 PM
VEGF Upregulation in Viral Infections and Its Possible Therapeutic Implications (https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/19/6/1642/htm)
Muon,
We need more POISer test data on human papillomavirus (HPV) to see if there are any correlations in the antibody titer or PCR.

Now that you mentioned it. A colleague of Waldinger once told me he had a few POISers with an active HPV infection, so with elevated IgM, they couldn't get rid of it. I have asked Vandemolen a while back if he could ask the doctor about what type of HPV. I still have the PM from Van:

He said (the doctor):"From memory it's about HPV16. It concerns a few people"

Ik doel trouwens niet specifiek op jouw case. Hij vertelde dit ooit aan me. Ik wil graag weten welk type HPV dit was, ik heb geen contact meer met hem. Als je ruimte ziet om dit aan hem te vragen, dan graag.
Hij liep een uur uit, dus hij had niet veel tijd. Hij zei: ‘Uit mijn hoofd gaat het om HPV16. Gaat om een paar mensen.’
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on August 13, 2020, 07:59:58 PM
...He said (the doctor):"From memory it's about HPV16. It concerns a few people"...

An HPV study in women:
...HPV can force activate NK cells to lose their membrane receptors thus leading to their malfunction...
...The ex vivo cytotoxicity experiment showed that the cytotoxicity of NK cells was significantly decreased in the cervix of HPV16+ patients compared with that of HPV18+ patients. Collectively, our results suggested that HPV16 disables the increased NK cells in the early lesion of the cervix, indicating that the local immune system of the cervix is hyporesponsive to HPV16 infection and this may explain its bias for malignant transformation.

-Human Papillomavirus Type 16 Disables the Increased Natural Killer Cells in Early Lesions of the Cervix (https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jir/2019/9182979/)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on August 14, 2020, 06:30:59 AM
Atopic dermatitis:
HPV16 E7 expression in skin induces TSLP secretion, type 2 ILC infiltration and atopic dermatitis-like lesions (https://sci-hub.se/https://asi.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1038/icb.2014.123)

IL-18, but Not IL-12, Induces Production of IFN-g in the Immunosuppressive Environment of HPV16 E7 Transgenic Hyperplastic Skin (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X15365003)

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg35824#msg35824

Vertical transmission of human papillomavirus from infected mothers to their newborn babies and persistence of the virus in childhood (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0002937896704520)

"CONCLUSIONS: Our results support the concept that an infected mother can transmit human papillomavirus to her child."
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on August 14, 2020, 06:51:54 AM
IMD Berlin seems to have two tests. Does anyone have knowledge about these techniques? And where does one take samples from, we are talking about men. Oral mucosa, urinary tract?

Humane Papillomaviren (HPV) E6/7m-RNA (https://www.imd-berlin.de/leistungsverzeichnis/parameter.html?tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Banalyse%5D=150020&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Btitle%5D=HPV%20E6%2F7%20mRNA%20%28humanes%20Papillomavirus%29&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Bsynonym%5D=Human%20Papillomavirus&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Baction%5D=showmod&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Bcontroller%5D=Analyse&cHash=7817fa56e006c5703478e365f843f552)

HPV-Genotypisierung (https://www.imd-berlin.de/leistungsverzeichnis/parameter.html?tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Banalyse%5D=151196&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Btitle%5D=HPV-Genotypisierung&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Bsynonym%5D=&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Baction%5D=showmod&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Bcontroller%5D=Analyse&cHash=b65bcbe3b23d5814f2c55a3c088a2f50)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: berlin1984 on August 14, 2020, 07:02:18 AM
IMD Berlin seems to have two tests. Does anyone have knowledge about these techniques? And where does one take samples from, we are talking about men. Oral mucosa, urinary tract?

Humane Papillomaviren (HPV) E6/7m-RNA (https://www.imd-berlin.de/leistungsverzeichnis/parameter.html?tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Banalyse%5D=150020&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Btitle%5D=HPV%20E6%2F7%20mRNA%20%28humanes%20Papillomavirus%29&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Bsynonym%5D=Human%20Papillomavirus&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Baction%5D=showmod&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Bcontroller%5D=Analyse&cHash=7817fa56e006c5703478e365f843f552)
* From inside vagina (i guess with cotton... think covid->throat)
* Throat gargling water(?)
* Biopsy (doesn't mention where)

Quote
HPV-Genotypisierung (https://www.imd-berlin.de/leistungsverzeichnis/parameter.html?tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Banalyse%5D=151196&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Btitle%5D=HPV-Genotypisierung&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Bsynonym%5D=&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Baction%5D=showmod&tx_ajdiagnostics_analyse%5Bcontroller%5D=Analyse&cHash=b65bcbe3b23d5814f2c55a3c088a2f50)

* From inside vagina (i guess with cotton... think covid->throat)

So those tests are for checking for an active virus.

I didn't see an antibody test at IMD.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: swell on August 16, 2020, 12:11:56 AM
While I like flavonoids, but they yet have to eradicate my 3-4 warts (on foot sole).  I think they are due to HPV.  Any method to get permanently get rid of HPV?

Flavonoids: promising natural compounds against viral infections (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7087220/)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on August 16, 2020, 03:34:40 PM
...Any method to get permanently get rid of HPV?...

Hey swell, here are a few options:

AHCC: (From Bench to Bedside: Evaluation of AHCC Supplementation to Modulate the Host Immunity to Clear High-Risk Human Papillomavirus Infections (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fonc.2019.00173/full)). Discussion about taking AHCC can be found here (Immune Competence Therapy (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31893#msg31893)).

7-keto DHEA: DHEA is a steroid hormone with strong (broad spectrum) anti-viral effects. It increases NK cell function among other things. I never liked taking hormones because it can be difficult to control the side-effects (hair growth, etc...). But it is worth looking into. The 7-keto version (7-keto DHEA) is the most popular and safer form of the hormone that does not convert to other sex hormones.

HPV vaccine: Most vaccines only work before infection. But there is some evidence that quadrivalent and 9-valent
 human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccines (9vHPV, Gardasil 9) are effective even after infection because it boost NK cell cytotoxicity and antiviral humoral immunity. The vaccines are effective against different HPV subtypes (HPV 6, 11, 16, 18, 31, 33, 45, 52, and 58). Consult your doctor before taking vaccines.
--HPV Prophylactic Vaccination in Males Improves the Clearance of Semen Infection (2015) (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352396415301262)
--Human Papillomavirus Prophylactic Vaccination improves reproductive outcome in infertile patients with HPV semen infection: a retrospective study (2018) (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-19369-z)
--Clearance of recalcitrant warts in a pediatric patient following administration of the nine‐valent human papillomavirus vaccine (2020) (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/pde.14150)
--Nonavalent human papillomavirus vaccination as a treatment for warts in an immunosuppressed adult (2017) (https://www.jaadcasereports.org/article/S2352-5126(17)30110-8/fulltext)
--Quadrivalent Human Papillomavirus Vaccination: A Promising Treatment for Recalcitrant Cutaneous Warts in Children (2015) (https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mjl/adv/2015/00000095/00000008/art00031#)

"The vaccine CervarixTM indirectly induces NK cells functional phenotype through dendritic cells expressing IL-15 and tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-α. Another authorized HPV vaccine of cervical cancer in America, GardasilTM, has been confirmed that it increases local number of NK cells and up-regulates its receptor expression level such as NKG2D, NKp30 and NKp46, suggesting that NK cells function gets improved after vaccination. Practically, therapies based on NK cells are more economical compared to that of T cells."
-Natural killer cells: the first defense against human papilloma virus early infection (http://jphe.amegroups.com/article/view/3666/4417#:~:text=Another%20authorized%20HPV%20vaccine%20of,improved%20after%20vaccination%20(12).)

Essential oils: Some people use tea tree oil and eucalyptol to treat skin problems. They have immune regulation and antiseptic properties. I am not an expert here so others will have to do the research to know if it works.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on September 04, 2020, 06:15:02 PM
Norepinephrine increases bacteria replication and decreases immune system (source0 (https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201604-0862CP),source1 (https://bmcmicrobiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2180-14-180), source2 (https://www.jwatch.org/na46468/2018/04/30/norepinephrine-enhances-bacterial-replication-and))
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on September 14, 2020, 11:16:04 PM
While I like flavonoids, but they yet have to eradicate my 3-4 warts (on foot sole).  I think they are due to HPV.  Any method to get permanently get rid of HPV?
I just saw a otolaryngologist (ear, nose and throat doctor) about a growth on the uvula in my throat. He said that the growth was a benign papilloma (wart) and that it was probably caused by viral infection of the uvula. No test were done, but the otolaryngologist seemed confident that the growth was caused by human papillomavirus (HPV). I did not suggest any cause, he came up with this diagnosis on his own after examination of my uvula.

Also, I found these articles for using tea tree oil on skin warts:
Successful topical treatment of hand warts in a paediatric patient with tea tree oil (Melaleuca alternifolia) (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18940708/)
Tea Tree Oil (Melaleuca alternifolia) - An Efficient Treatment for Warts: Two Case Reports (https://iabcr.org/index.php/iabcr/article/view/130)
(50:50) = (tea tree oil:DMSO)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on September 16, 2020, 09:01:06 AM
No test were done
As usual.

but the otolaryngologist seemed confident that the growth was caused by human papillomavirus (HPV).
His confidence is not equal to evidence.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on September 16, 2020, 11:13:06 PM
His confidence is not equal to evidence.
  A benign papilloma diagnosis is not proof of the virus, but it is evidence of human papillomavirus (HPV) infection. The majority of papillomas are caused by HPV. There are no blood test for HPV. But there may be a way to (PCR-DNA) test for it through semen samples if the infection extends to the reproductive system:
--Presence of human papillomavirus in semen of healthy men is firmly associated with HPV infections of the penile epithelium (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0015028215004550)
--Frequency of herpes simplex virus, cytomegalovirus and human papillomavirus DNA in semen (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1258/095646202760159666)

  I sought a second opinion and both doctors independently gave the same diagnosis. Also, both mentioned possible infection without me saying anything about infection or sharing any personal opinion. HPV has properties that have been demonstrated in POIS research (COX-2 regulation, fatigue induction, neurological effects, and immune suppression). It is also a localized infection that can infect epithelium of the blood vessels, intestines or reproductive organs. So far I haven't seen anything in the medical data or POIS literature that has ruled this possibility out. So I think HPV, both as an antigen and as an immune suppressor, is worth investigating.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on September 17, 2020, 06:38:59 AM
It could be a process where growth factors are involved mimicking HPV. Adding these papers to the POIS paper thread.

So I think HPV, both as an antigen and as an immune suppressor, is worth investigating.
+1
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: berlin1984 on September 17, 2020, 02:37:00 PM
nanna1, how is your POIS these days? Still in a "healed" state?

According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_papillomavirus_infection), there is 170 types of HPV.

Since you are the AHCC (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31893#msg31893) expert, maybe try to take AHCC (And Lysine?) again for some months and report back how it affects your throat.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6435520/
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141028122424.htm

https://dacemirror.sci-hub.tw/journal-article/d35a136e02c5b501e6f5bb57a1a29baf/smith2019.pdf
"Data to date also confirmed use of AHCC supplementation modulates of the expression and signaling of IFNβ that is known to be elevated in chronic viral infections, such as HPV, to levels below 25 pg/mL. This was associated with a correlative increase in IFN-gamma and eradication of HPV infections." (I can't interpret what this means, but sounds relevant to the immune surpressing..)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on September 19, 2020, 12:11:55 AM
nanna1, how is your POIS these days? Still in a "healed" state?
Hi berlin1984,
  Yeah, I still have remission of POIS symptoms. It feels like permanent improvement since it has been over a year now. The itch on the left side of my chin still occurs after orgasm and can spread to the left part of my face and ear if I scratch it. Also, I usually have to twist-pop (and stretch) my lower back. If I do not pop my back after O, then it will feel tight and stiff for a day or two. The back-issue started when I had a car accident (2018) and my back got injured. I had to go to physical therapy and a chiropractor to heal, but somehow orgasms can cause the pain to return if I don't pop and stretch it out. All the other symptoms that I used to have (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039) are completely gone.

  Recently, I have been having Os every other day; so about 3 per week. I read somewhere that maximum health benefits from sex occur at one orgasm per week. Any more or less than that is sub-optimal in terms of health benefits from sexual activity. So I may cut back in the future. I usually have most of my orgasms in the morning before I go to work because they seem to make me more creative. I have never done recreational drugs. But I can imagine how artist who do drugs for creativity feel. Also, orgasms seem to help me focus more now. It's like a brain boost. Thanks for asking.

According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_papillomavirus_infection), there is 170 types of HPV.
Most of those HPV types are rare. The Gardasil 9 vaccine (9vHPV) (https://www.merckvaccines.com/gardasil9/) covers the 9 most common/prevalent types (HPV 6, 8, 16, 18, 31, 33, 45, 52, 58). There is some evidence that Gardasil 9 can cure HPV infection even after being infected.
Consult your doctor before taking vaccines.
--HPV Prophylactic Vaccination in Males Improves the Clearance of Semen Infection (2015) (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352396415301262)
--Human Papillomavirus Prophylactic Vaccination improves reproductive outcome in infertile patients with HPV semen infection: a retrospective study (2018) (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-19369-z)
--Clearance of recalcitrant warts in a pediatric patient following administration of the nine‐valent human papillomavirus vaccine (2020) (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/pde.14150)
--Nonavalent human papillomavirus vaccination as a treatment for warts in an immunosuppressed adult (2017) (https://www.jaadcasereports.org/article/S2352-5126(17)30110-8/fulltext)
--Quadrivalent Human Papillomavirus Vaccination: A Promising Treatment for Recalcitrant Cutaneous Warts in Children (2015) (https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mjl/adv/2015/00000095/00000008/art00031#)

Since you are the AHCC (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31893#msg31893) expert, maybe try to take AHCC (And Lysine?) again for some months and report back how it affects your throat.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6435520/
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141028122424.htm
Thanks for sharing the science Daily article. It says that Active Hexose Correlated Compound (AHCC) takes about 6 months to clear the HPV infection. A few people in the study were able to clear the infection after 3 months of AHCC.
I only took AHCC for about 2.5 months consistently (but cycled). Then I took it on-and-off during the (2019) flu season and (2020) coronavirus peak. Maybe I did not take AHCC the best way or I did not take it long enough to fully clear infections. I read that AHCC improves the efficiency of the influenza virus vaccine.
--Short-term supplementation with active hexose correlated compound improves the antibody response to influenza B vaccine (2012) (http://www.ahccpublishedresearch.com/downloads/AHCC-Improves-the-antibody-response-to-the-influenza-B-vaccine.pdf)

I think that I will get the Gardasil 9 vaccine (3 booster shots) and take AHCC (or Immunocomplex) consistently for 6 months during the vaccination to boost its effects.
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: nanna1 on October 12, 2020, 01:10:03 AM
Some patients, that "recover" from COVID-19, experience POIS-like symptoms. It may give some insights into what is happening with POIS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu_Gs7N4lGk
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on October 12, 2020, 06:18:28 PM
Some patients, that "recover" from COVID-19, experience POIS-like symptoms. It may give some insights into what is happening with POIS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu_Gs7N4lGk

The extended autonomic system, dyshomeostasis, and COVID-19 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7374073/)
Title: Re: Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS
Post by: Muon on October 23, 2020, 07:22:42 AM
Postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2600095/)

"Prognosis depends on aetiology. Patients may have continuous symptoms. They may be unable to cope with their employment or normal daily activities. After post-viral episodes around 50% of patients recover in 2–5 years. Prognosis is good in adolescent patients. In the majority >90% respond to a combination of physical methods as well as pharmacotherapy. In the hyperadrenergic state patients will require life long treatment. In the secondary form the causative disorder has to be treated in order for patients to become symptom?free.

Pyridostigmine, an acetylcholine esterase inhibitor, has shown promising results in the management of POTS caused by post-viral infection and autoimmune disorders.29 Low dose combination therapy is better than high dose monotherapy.
"