Author Topic: An introduction to Prospero's case  (Read 6775 times)

Prospero

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2021, 06:18:14 PM »
It depends. Generally speaking, in a POIS state my breathing is not as good as in a "perfect health" state : it is less deep in particular, but as I said I'm not sure the *rhythm* itself is changed. These changes happen not after an orgasm but before, as a consequence of arousal. This is very clear. The rhythm certainly changes when I'm sexually aroused : I believe that is slows down, sometimes I realize that I have been holding my breath for a few seconds. When arousal stops, I guess that my rhythm is normalized but my breathing remains weaker. It somewhat evokes the problems of tensed diaphragm which a recent post by "Freeman" mentioned.

That being said, there is another problem which I mentioned in the previous posts regarding breathing, which is a more advanced state of impaired breathing: I feel that my breathing is really slowed when I don't care about it, I feel like I have to "force" myself to breath, and it seems to provoke arrhythmia, as you described. This is not a common post-orgasmic symptom but something which appears either 1/ more or less spontaneously, when I'm in a POIS state (that is, almost always), without appearant reason, 2/ after a longer period of arousal and/or masturbation (ie more than a couple of minutes), or 3/ after sustained physical exercise.
It doesn't happen every time after those triggers, and in fact it is rather rare. I didn't notice that orgasm in particular would trigger this problem, but it may perfectly have been the case that it happened in the past.
Oh, and I'm not sure about this but I would also say that intense stress/anxiety can provoke similar breathing difficulties in the aftermath.

There may be a third aspect of breathing problems, which centers more on having difficulties to inhale fully. As I have noticed that, the last time I had this breathing problem, I was very constipated, and as I believe that it was also the case in the past, I wonder if there may not be a link with a Roemheld Syndrome (bloatings, constipated digestive system and maybe hiatal hernia or other stomach problems, which create a pressure on the lungs, heart and/or vagus nerve). A pain in the heart area, especially when air bubbles go up the oesophagus, is a very recurring symptom since my teen years, especially when I'm constipated and also especially after a sustained arousal since my POIS onset.

Edit : I just saw what you posted in your personal thread. These are interesting hypotheses indeed.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 05:31:28 AM by Prospero »

Prospero

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2021, 11:17:29 AM »
Some experiments:

Recently, as I was feeling better than is usually the case (no ejaculation since a while, zero sexual arousal, omega-3 doing their job to prevent my now-chronic symptoms like tachycardia), I tried some immune supplements anew.

I began with low-dose vitamin D3 (400 IU), which I took for a few days. I remembered that when I took it during the fall, one of the first apparent benefits had been that my dry mouth & throat, which felt almost irritated, came back to normal very quickly. I didn't know if it was a coincidence, so as I had the same symptom of dry mouth & throat last week, I thought it would be useful to try and see. The result of the experiment was the same : the dryness disappeared in 24h after beginning daily vitamin D3, and came back only a few days after having stopped to take it. This time, vitamin D3 didn't cause me strange symptoms of "pleasure intoxication". I guess that it's because I didn't have any moment of arousal and POIS state was kept in check, as I also had this "pleasure intoxication" triggered out of D3 by arousal. Last september D3 didn't have bad effects either, before I began to have some arousal episodes. However, this time I took less D3 (400 IU rather than 800) and only for a week, maybe it would have been different otherwise.

Whatever it be, I stopped D3 after a week and began zinc instead, since the beginning of the week. I had also already tried zinc last October, but only a few times because I felt that it aggravated my tachycardia and general POIS condition. However, as I had many problems at the time related to POIS, vitamin D3, etc., and as I was more frequently aroused, I wasn't really sure that zinc had such an effect. This time also, I tried it at lower dose, 15 mg daily rather than 30 mg. I take it during lunch. I didn't feel any particular effect in the first days but now they appeared. Yesterday I was feeling great in the morning (I could climb quickly the six floors of my apartment block without shortness of breath, which *never* happens during POIS and with tachycardia), but some time after the lunch I was suddenly tired, needed to lie down, and finally began to feel that several classic symptoms of POIS were here again. I checked my heart rate which was 92 bpm, clear tachycardia. Nonetheless I was not sure it was zinc because just after the lunch I had played at a video game for some time, which generated stress, and I never feel very good after stress. In the evening I took a warm shower and felt good anew, symptoms being gone. Heart rate 64 bpm, normal. Today I wake up in the same healthy state, but this time I was very careful not to do anything stressful during the day. Same thing happened however, a few time after my lunch and the zinc pill, I suddenly perceived that "POIS" was coming back, breath being shortened and less deep, feeling more tired. Heart rhythm 94 bpm.

So I guess that there may be two main explanations : 1/ immune activation due to zinc, as expected by nanna1 (the idea of taking zinc came from his posts, of course) ; 2/ zinc is linked to some neurotransmittors so maybe something happens at this level. I'm more inclined to favor the immune activation explanation, but I find a bit odd that a warm shower is sufficient to put an end to the symptoms, if this is so. Or the scheme is something like Zinc -> immune activation -> triggering of nervous symptoms -> nervous symptoms can be removed while immune reaction continues without manifest symptoms.


Also, I had my appointment in Pr. Amarenco's service, at Hospital Tenon (not with him personally). Nothing notable, the doctor was not very talkative. "There is seemingly a dysfunction of the autonomous nervous system" was all that she said about POIS. She wants me to come back for complementary examinations and mentioned a MRI (I said that I had had a cerebral MRI, but I read elsewhere that Amarenco & alii had studied the spinal column of previous patients). I'll have a notification for the appointment, probably not very soon, apparently. Ah, and she gave me cetirizine, to try.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 11:33:37 AM by Prospero »

Muon

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2021, 11:44:38 AM »
The ANS affects the immune system. Let me know when you have the MRI planned and of your MRI results. I can postpone my spinal MRI again and look at your results first. Not sure if I have asked this already but do you have premature ejaculation?

Prospero

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2021, 11:56:31 AM »
No premature ejaculation. I guess that you shouldn't postpone anything, the doctor was quite clear in telling me that it should take a while.

Prospero

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2021, 05:24:00 PM »
Curcumin & black pepper 1h before O: extremely similar to the effect of Paracetamol. I feel that I'm a bit "emptied", and I get out of breath quickly if I make a little physical effort (climbing up my stairs...), but I'm overall good.

BoneBroth

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2021, 06:09:10 AM »
This is absolutely nightmarish, as avoiding sexual stimulation is my main option to fight POIS, if my brain acts by itself as if I was continually masturbating or aroused, it's really scary. I didn't read anyone with this kind of problem on the forum.

Same here, just a sexual arosal, if only for some seconds, will cause headache for hours to days. But sometimes it does not. I belive this happens when dopamin receptor cells are overstimulated, or over production of dopamin, or there is a temporary hormon deficiency. When I feel mentally stronger I build up a resistance against the effects of theese arousal. So its definitly possible to work with. Have a look at my story at the link below, its much the same as yours Prospero.

We must be aware of that the efficiency of absorption of nutrients (D3, Zink etc) varies greatly depending on where in the POIS cycle we are. After O the intake is probable very low and stays low for a week since the intestines are inflamed. Then the supplements might seem less efficient. The sexual arousal also has it cycles. I can stay "cold" about 20-30 days, but then the NE is more likely to appear again. So its more important to build up resistance between POIS periods, its important to take those supplements when they are doing the most work.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 06:19:20 AM by BoneBroth »

Muon

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2021, 10:28:57 AM »
- I feel "less heterosexual", or "less manly", in a POIS state, and I experience a much stronger desire for females out of it, as well as a stronger "willingness to assume a manly role", sexually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone
"Dr. Diana Fleischman, of the University of Portsmouth, and colleagues looked for a relationship between progesterone and sexual attitudes in 92 women. Their research, published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior found that women who had higher levels of progesterone scored higher on a questionnaire measuring homoerotic motivation. They also found that men who had high levels of progesterone were more likely to have higher homoerotic motivation scores after affiliative priming compared to men with low levels of progesterone."

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2545.msg40271#msg40271

Prospero

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2021, 10:47:24 AM »
This is extremely interesting, thank you. Your progesterone result is incredible. I want to do more hormonal blood tests too, I planned an appointment with my doctor at the end of the month to try to get a prescription.

Prospero

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2021, 04:10:24 PM »
Had my exam at Pr. Amarenco's service of neuro-urology in Paris. Finally no MRI, only tests of the autonomous nervous system, which showed that there was no anomaly (I was unfortunately not in a full Pois state, I had provoked an orgasm the day before but it was not strong and I didn't feel very sick; I guess that the result is still valid though).
The neurologist suggested that I try alpha-blockers (silodosin) for one month and prescribed me blood tests for LH, FSH and prolactine but nothing else, although I asked her for more. She also mentioned that nervous stimulation therapy could be a possibility. She recognized that, as tests thus far weren't conclusive, she couldn't tell me anything about my Pois and she declined to make hypotheses regarding the reasons why opioids and omega-3 are beneficial in my case.

Today I had another appointment with my gp. I tried to get additional blood tests prescribed but he refused. As he couldn't find reasons for the success of codeine and omega-3, he concluded that it was placebo effect and that I should see a psychologist / sexologist.

I'm a bit tired of doctors, and their reluctance to investigate when there are no predefinite rules and when they're not sure to know what they will find.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 04:26:41 AM by Prospero »

BoneBroth

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2021, 02:28:31 AM »
They have economical restrictions, tests costs. But the state funded doctors use to be more generous.

Prospero

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2021, 06:39:54 PM »
LH: 2,91 IU/l (RR: 0.57 to 12.07)
FSH: 1,39 IU/l (RR: 0.95 to 11.95)
Prolactine: 196,0 mIU/l (RR: 72.7 to 407.4)

LH and FSH are still in the reference range but seem pretty low.

Last round of tests, on my own:

Abnormal values:
Progesterone: <1.6 nmol/l (RR: <0.64)
Homocysteine: 12,73 micromol/l - Normal: <10 micromol/l ; Intermediary level: 10 to 15 micromol/l ; Superior level: 15 to 30 micromol/l

Normal values:
Estradiol: <88.1 pmol/l - RR: 40 to 161
Estrone: <0.04 nmol/l - RR: 0.03 to 0.22
DHEA-S: 6.6 micromol/l - RR: 5.7 to 13.4 micromol/l
Histamine: 392.2 nmol/l - RR: 200 to 2000
Tryptophan: 59 micromol/l - RR: 52 to 82
Adrenaline: <0.50 nmol/l - RR: < 1,00
Noradrenaline: 2.37 nmol/l - RR: < 4,00
Dopamine: <0.50 nmol/l - RR: < 1,00

Muon

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2021, 08:00:01 AM »
- I feel "less heterosexual", or "less manly", in a POIS state, and I experience a much stronger desire for females out of it, as well as a stronger "willingness to assume a manly role", sexually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone
"Dr. Diana Fleischman, of the University of Portsmouth, and colleagues looked for a relationship between progesterone and sexual attitudes in 92 women. Their research, published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior found that women who had higher levels of progesterone scored higher on a questionnaire measuring homoerotic motivation. They also found that men who had high levels of progesterone were more likely to have higher homoerotic motivation scores after affiliative priming compared to men with low levels of progesterone."

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2545.msg40271#msg40271

Good intuition. I have high progesterone like you. I'll post the results of my last tests soon.
Progesterone 1.6 nmol/l, RR: <0.64.

Ideas from someone I'm discussing with:
"High progesterone can be:
A) to retain potassium and waste sodium
B) problems with conversion into 5a-dhp and allopregnanolone
C) problems with liver (gilbert's, etc)

Usually high progesterone comes with normal results for other steroids.
"

Iwillbeatthis

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2021, 08:29:35 AM »
- I feel "less heterosexual", or "less manly", in a POIS state, and I experience a much stronger desire for females out of it, as well as a stronger "willingness to assume a manly role", sexually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone
"Dr. Diana Fleischman, of the University of Portsmouth, and colleagues looked for a relationship between progesterone and sexual attitudes in 92 women. Their research, published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior found that women who had higher levels of progesterone scored higher on a questionnaire measuring homoerotic motivation. They also found that men who had high levels of progesterone were more likely to have higher homoerotic motivation scores after affiliative priming compared to men with low levels of progesterone."

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2545.msg40271#msg40271

Good intuition. I have high progesterone like you. I'll post the results of my last tests soon.
Progesterone 1.6 nmol/l, RR: <0.64.

Ideas from someone I'm discussing with:
"High progesterone can be:
A) to retain potassium and waste sodium
B) problems with conversion into 5a-dhp and allopregnanolone
C) problems with liver (gilbert's, etc)

Usually high progesterone comes with normal results for other steroids.
"

I'm sure it is because of A) to retain potassium and waste sodium

Muon

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2021, 05:27:21 PM »
@prospero

About the bisexuality, i too notice that during POIS i lean more towards dating a girl (aka same sex) and be the leader/dominant one whereas in my ?normal? state i lean more towards dating a guy (thus opposite sex) & enjoy feeling more feminine. Its very weird.
Im a female so my progesterone naturally fluctates, but i notice during the 2 weeks that my progesterone rises i feel almost constant POIS with flu-like symptoms and fatigue. When my period starts and the 2 weeks before ovulation i feel pretty much normal with no flu symptoms and energy is pretty good most of the time.

Does anyone here know their progesterone levels? Are they high aswell?
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3575.0

Muon

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2021, 06:00:28 PM »
I'm sure it is because of A) to retain potassium and waste sodium
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone
"Moreover, progesterone is also known to be an antagonist of the sigma 1 receptor"

https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/ninfii/i_could_potentially_have_this_but/

Quote from: brittneystaubin
For 24+ hours after masturbating (all external, not internal), I get very faint/lightheaded, as well as the symptoms of: fatigue, nausea, brain fog and inability to concentrate, low or no appetite, a small headache, and an intense bloating and tingling pressure in my uterus area. It gets worse immediately after eating anything (both the bloating and the weird pressure). But I am not able to drive the next day from this. I also have POTS and IBS-C.

I believe Voltage-gated sodium-selective ion channel NaV1.5 mutations can play a role in both syndromes.

Antagonist action of progesterone at sigma-receptors in the modulation of voltage-gated sodium channels

NaV1.5 channels...

Prospero

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2021, 04:47:55 AM »
Yesterday, there were people saying they developed POIS after Finasteride use (see https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=458.msg41283#msg41283). Finasteride is an inhibitor of 5alpha-reductase, which happens also to transform Progesterone in 5a-dhp and then allopregnanolone. It may be no coincidence. So low activity of 5a-reductase equal high progesterone, low allo and low dihydrotestosterone. I'm furious the lab didn't test DHT as I wanted them to do... The lab assistant didn't know what it was, while it was in their *** catalogue of exams.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 07:41:53 AM by Prospero »

Muon

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2021, 07:10:59 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5?-Reductase#List_of_conversions
Link doesnt work. Search manually.

The following reactions are known to be catalyzed by 5a-reductase:

Cholestenone > 5a-Cholestanone
Progesterone > 5a-Dihydroprogesterone
3a-Dihydroprogesterone  > Allopregnanolone
3b-Dihydroprogesterone > Isopregnanolone
Deoxycorticosterone > 5a-Dihydrodeoxycorticosterone
Corticosterone > 5a-Dihydrocorticosterone
Cortisol > 5a-Dihydrocortisol
Aldosterone > 5a-Dihydroaldosterone
Androstenedione > 5a-Androstanedione
Testosterone > 5a-Dihydrotestosterone
Nandrolone > 5a-Dihydronandrolone

Wiki uses this as source, figure 2:
Steroid 5?-Reductase as a Novel Therapeutic Target for Schizophrenia and Other Neuropsychiatric Disorders

This could be involved in my brother’s psychotic disorder which he developed last year.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 07:50:06 AM by Muon »

Prospero

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2021, 07:54:56 AM »
Hm. 3a-dihydroprogesterone, which is transformed in allo by 5a-reductase, "has also been found to inhibit the secretion of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3%CE%B1-Dihydroprogesterone). I have very low FSH. Of course it could be caused by many things.

Wikipedia also mentions that 5a-reductase is involved in bile acid biosynthesis. Gut issues connection?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 07:58:20 AM by Prospero »

Muon

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2021, 12:39:18 PM »
Wikipedia also mentions that 5a-reductase is involved in bile acid biosynthesis. Gut issues connection?
Progesterone is involved in sensory nerves as well. I have a suspicion that sensory pathways are involved in my symptomatology which seem to interact with low grade inflammation.

Persistent Genital Hyperinnervation Following Progesterone Administration to Adolescent Female Rats

"In this regard, it is noteworthy that inflammation also contributes to hyperinnervation [64, 65], raising the possibility that progesterone and inflammation could act synergistically to promote hyperinnervation and hypersensitivity."

Hypersensitivity in the sense that it lowers thresholds in combo with increased nerve fiber density, increasing susceptibility for neuropeptides/neuron interaction. IL-8+progesterone?

Substance P inhibits progesterone conversion to neuroactive metabolites in spinal sensory circuit: A potential component of nociception
« Last Edit: June 27, 2021, 12:44:20 PM by Muon »

Progecitor

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Re: An introduction to Prospero's case
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2021, 02:04:04 PM »
I bought a red clover supplement to test and while reading about it I found some information that may be of interest to you as well. Although phytoprogestins bind to progesterone receptors (PR) some of them (not all!) may actually antagonize PR and down-regulate progesterone activity. So if you wanted to reduce your progesterone level or activity they could be beneficial. Of course you would have to be extremely careful as this may potentially backfire due to scarce scientific evidence.  I suspect that in my case ER is more likely to be involved, although I am not yet sure how.

The six highest ER-binding herbs that are commonly consumed were soy, licorice, red clover, thyme, tumeric, hops, and verbena. The six highest PR-binding herbs and spices commonly consumed were oregano, verbena, tumeric, thyme, red clover and damiana.
Induction of alkaline phosphatase is dose dependent, occurs over a physiological range of progesterone, and is highly progestin specific as no other steroids (estrogens, androgens, glucocorticoids), induce this enzyme at a physiologic dose. Alkaline phosphatase induction defines the PR-binding herb as an agonist, whereas no induction functionally defines the herb either as neutral or as an antagonist. If the herb blocks progesterone induction of alkaline phosphatase, it is defined as an antagonist.
In contrast, red clover, licorice, goldenseal, pennyroyal, and nutmeg all either completely or partially blocked enzyme induction by progesterone, tentatively defining them as antiprogestins.
One of the mechanisms by which progestins modulate estrogen action is by down regulating ER. Estrogens also down regulate ER, but the mechanism is different.
The mean progesterone levels (determined by RIA) in the saliva of MPA and diosgenin users was very low; respectively, 17 pg/ml (n = 7, range 10-27) and 19 pg/ml (n = 10, range 5-34).
These pilot results showing that MPA (pharmaceutical synthetic progestins like medroxyprogesterone acetate) and diosgenin (wild yam root) appear to suppress progesterone synthesis are very consistent with a much larger database from our laboratory.
Licorice and red clover, but not soy milk, also had high levels of a PR-binding component(s) which had potent progestin antagonist properties based on their ability to block progesterone induction of alkaline phosphatase, an end product of progestin action. Interestingly, all three herbs belong to the leguminosa family, yet the active phytoestrogen is derived from different parts of the plant-bean, root, and flower, respectively. Of further interest is that all three have been suggested to have cancer-preventive properties. We recently have reported on the biphasic actions of genistein on cell proliferation in ER(+) human breast cancer cells in vitro. Genistein is one of the principal phytoestrogens in soy and thought to be present in other legumes like licorice and red clover.

https://sci-hub.se/https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3181/00379727-217-44247