POISCENTER
POIS Cause/Treatment Discussions => General Alternative Causes and Treatments of POIS => Topic started by: Nightingale on July 21, 2012, 09:37:51 AM
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IT WORKS.
That in short is the message I am saying today about the vitamin regimin that our friend *kurtosis* has been working on and taking himself. After taking the supplements he has been recommending for 2-3 weeks, I decided to have an orgasm *without niacin* and there were VIRTUALLY NO SYMPTOMS. I'd say I was safely 90 to 95% better then after an "O" without any treatment!
I've been moving more towards the vitamin deficiency/absorption hypothesis after trying to figure out why the niacin flush helps us, and kurtosis has provided a coherent theory and treatment that works for me. You should try it and see if it works for you.
kurtosis and myself both believe that the post-orgasm symptoms are not the only symptoms we face from this issue, and that there might be more benefit in the future with continued use of these vitamins/herbs. I will be continuing my supplementation and I will be happy to answer more about this to anyone interested!
Here is a post by kurtosis detailing what he (and now me) is taking:
Anyway, for the first time in 20 years, I have no noticeable POIS symptoms. I'm taking Gingko, Huperzine and a high-strength b complex with active co-enzymes of b12 and b6. I'm also taking krill oil. The Huperzine seems to have sorted out the eye problem. I didn't take it yesterday morning and the eye control problem was back. 200mcg of it and within 10 minutes it's fixed and my memory is greatly improved. I've had 4 O's in a week with no diminishment in cognitive performance.
kurtosis, I am following your strategy. I have bought all the supplements you have mentioned and have begun taking them mostly with the doses suggested by the labels. You've mentioned that you take a more that the suggested dose, saying you take probably twice what I do.
Could you list the doses of each specific supplement/herb/vitamin that you are taking, so that I can replicate your regimen? I don't have access to the same B-complexes you do, so I'd love to know the doses of the particular items of importance in those pills. You also mention "active co-enzymes" of b6 and b12, and I dont know what those are. I have been supplementing b6 and b12 separately in addition to taking a B-complex. Otherwise I have all the other items you'v mentioned you use
I saw you have had great success in reducing your mental symptoms and I would love to have the same results!
Thanks!
Coenzymated b vitamins include methylcobalamin (active b12) and pyramidal 5 phosphate (p5p, active b6). These are available in a b complex from solgar and Now Foods. The solgar one has some non-active form of the vitamins. The Now Foods one doesn't. I find the active coenzymated forms easier to take. With the non-coenzymated forms I sometimes feel a bit nauseous after taking them.
I'm only taking 200mcg of Huperzine A once a day and 90mg of ginkgo twice and 3 times on alternate days (so 180mg some days and 270 others).
I also take vitamin c (1g / day) and krill oil (2 caps / day). I take spirulina also but I tend to put it in smoothies or drink it and it's really only if I didn't get a lot of protein that day. I always take spirulina after an O. The protein seems to help me recover.
Ages ago, I remember taking something called "BrainQuick" which contained huperzine, vinpocetine, b vitamins and some amino acids. It definitely had a beneficial effect but it was 1) expensive 2) I needed quite a lot of it and 3) the precise amount of each of the nutrients was not specified. I wish someone would produce an exact huperzine, ginkgo, coenzymated b + protein supplement so I could just take one thing and not be carting lots of pills around with me. I've even considered getting a commercial lab to formulate something.
Apart from that, I don't know what to say. I feel much better. Is it having any affect at all?
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That sounds great, if not a little complicated!
I've been following his activity over there, but we don't support that forum any more. It's a shame he doesn't want to come over here.
Demo has spent a lot of time end effort, 5 yrs, of very hard sweat and tears to bring together the people and atmosphere where these kinds of things
can prosper.
Now we are over here!
Do you get the most "complicated elements" on line, like the Now Foods brand.
So it's the following:
200 mcg Huperzine A (Which brand and where do you get it)
1 high strength B complex form Now Foods (Is there a particular size, dose, product name)
2 caps krill oil (Brand or source?)
1 g vitamin C
180 mg ginko (extra 90 mg every other day)
1 spirulina (capsule? teaspoon? brand and source??)
and an extra spirulina after "O".
Is that right?
Can you fill in the blanks. We need to make it easier for regular brainfogged POISers to try this regimine.
There is a lot to do.
Does it work for everyone?
Are there side effects?
Do you have to monitor liver?
Can the formula be tweaked, what are the most important items in case you can't get everything?
I live in Chile others live in other countries where it may be difficult to get all this stuff.
I have trouble finding NIACIN here. I have to import it, and even then customs has given me a hard time.
There are others in the same condition.
Thank you very much Nightingale. You are a good friend of the POIS effort.
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Thank you Daveman for putting it in standard recipe format. It makes it more organized. I agree it was a little complicated to me at first. I also wonder about some of the details too, like the exact dose of B complex and exactly when everything is taken (daily I guess). It's great news that it's been working for a few people! I plan to try this anti-POIS recipe too as soon as I understand more of the details. Nice job coming up with this formula kurtosis and for trying it out Nightingale.
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Do you get the most "complicated elements" on line, like the Now Foods brand.
Not yet. I just ordered it myself. I have been taking a "normal" B-complex I found at my local store. It says to take 1 a day, I take 2 in the morning
So it's the following:
200 mcg Huperzine A (Which brand and where do you get it)
1 high strength B complex form Now Foods (Is there a particular size, dose, product name)
2 caps krill oil (Brand or source?)
1 g vitamin C
180 mg ginko (extra 90 mg every other day)
1 spirulina (capsule? teaspoon? brand and source??)
and an extra spirulina after "O".
Huperzine A is a GNC brand (GNC is a major supplement chain store in the USA)
Now Foods CO-ENZYME B-COMPLEX (from Amazon.com) - but I think most B-complexes will work, just take 2x the suggested amount
1000mg of Neptune Krill Oil (for me 2 capsules) - Neptune is NOT the brand it is the type of Krill! My brand is also GNC
1g vit C - from any quality brand i guess
120mg Ginko Biloba GNC brand- 1 a day, then 2 a day, then 1... If you are on anti-depressants you NEED to watch how you feel on this, can interact
Spirulina is new for me so I'm not sure how crucial it is for POIS benefit - I take 1 teaspoon of Nutrex Spirulina Pacifica, but I'd recommend tablets instead!
These were missed but are IMPORTANT:
Magnesium (as citrate) 500mg a day - Nature's Way brand
Zinc Chelate (basically just Zinc in an amino form) 30mg a day - Nature's Way brand
Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxine Hydrochloride) 200mg a day - GNC brand
Vitamin B12 (as cyanocobalamin) ~2000 mcg a day - GNC brand
According to kurtosis' theory, vitamin B6 is the main issue. If you are concerned about expenses, at least start taking B6. B12 is important for energy. I'd also make sure to take Magnesium and Zinc.
I don't know how much kurtosis' and my regimen are as far as doses, he hinted at taking more than me. I'd love for him to compare here for us, so i'll try to get him to.
Are there side effects?
Do you have to monitor liver?
I have not heard kurtosis mention liver monitoring.
Can the formula be tweaked, what are the most important items in case you can't get everything?
I live in Chile others live in other countries where it may be difficult to get all this stuff.
I have trouble finding NIACIN here. I have to import it, and even then customs has given me a hard time.
There are others in the same condition.
These questions would be best directed to kurtosis. I don't fully understand his reasons for picking all these vitamins.
Thank you very much Nightingale. You are a good friend of the POIS effort.
You are SO welcome. All the best
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A helpful post from kurtosis on NSF:
I know! Kurtosis, you rock for figuring that recipe out! :) I'm anxious to try it out and am ordering the ingredients now. I hope it works for me and for many others, but one never knows because everyone's different. Still gonna try out it though. Niacin doesn't work that well for me, even at 600mg.
I can't promise it will work guys. However, can I suggest 2 things if you're going to go down this route.
1) don't give up on the supplements after a few days. If you buy them, take each for the month or so of capsules in the bottle (as directed) and don't expect an overnight cure.
2) get some aerobic exercise (long walks is enough) and try to calm some of your anxiety about POIS. I know this is incredibly difficult but you have give your brain some time to heal and cortisol from anxiety and stress will, in itself, prevent you from getting over POIS.
The stress of knowing that you have an illness that's affecting your cognitive ability will _itself_ harm you. You have to somehow deal with it and exercise like brisk walking can help reduce your cortisol levels.
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Try to post here, guys!
Thanks!! :) :)
Demo
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Vitamin B6 is the most important coenzym for dopamine production. So if you are taking large doses it works like a stimulant. High dose vitamin therapy is not a cure, its just masking the effects of POIS.
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Well, it may be masking or it could be replacing an important part in a faulty chain.
We don't really know!
We don't really know!
Research required!
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Try to post here, guys!
Thanks!! :) :)
Demo
OK, will do. I'm just taking the coenzymated b complex from Now. I don't take separate b12.
I take the spirulina as a source of protein to help in the synthesis of catecholamines and to help me improve my level of physical fitness and strength.
As for Starsky's comment that this is just masking the effects of POIS, I don't know what that means.
We do not know what POIS is yet so it's impossible to say whether something is masking or treating its effects. For example, if someone is being benefitted by taking welbutrin then I'd say, keep taking it. While we're figuring out the exactly pathology of the illness we also need to be functional.
If POIS is an illness which affects metabolism of certain vitamins then taking those vitamins is a viable treatment rather than merely masking it.
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So you dont take any additional b complex, b12, b6. Just this coenzyme b complex? How much of it?
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Try to post here, guys!
Thanks!! :) :)
Demo
OK, will do. I'm just taking the coenzymated b complex from Now. I don't take separate b12.
I take the spirulina as a source of protein to help in the synthesis of catecholamines and to help me improve my level of physical fitness and strength.
As for Starsky's comment that this is just masking the effects of POIS, I don't know what that means.
We do not know what POIS is yet so it's impossible to say whether something is masking or treating its effects. For example, if someone is being benefitted by taking welbutrin then I'd say, keep taking it. While we're figuring out the exactly pathology of the illness we also need to be functional.
If POIS is an illness which affects metabolism of certain vitamins then taking those vitamins is a viable treatment rather than merely masking it.
By the way, I didn't even know this was being discussed here until today. Much of the posts about this on the NSF have come from other people (Nightingale and B_Daniel) who are responding to conversations I"m having with them over messages. These weren't messages I initiated so I'm actually just trying to be helpful.
I really am very busy guys. There's no calculated attempt to snub poiscenter and no offence intended towards Daveman or Demografx :)
I disagree with the NSF prohibition on us raising funds but I still think it's an interesting forum and I read other NSF threads.
So what exactly am I taking?
Morning:
- now foods coenzymated complex (1 capsule)
- 2 capsules of spirulina (synergy but I've used other brands). If I'm having a high protein breakfast then I don't necessarily take these.
- 200mcg of huperzine A (every 2nd day).
- 1000mg of vitamin C. (I take this every day).
- 60mg of Ginkgo. (every day)
Afternoon:
- 120mg of Ginkgo (every day)
- some krill oil (just 1 capsule)
Night:
- zinc and magnesium with another Now b complex tablet (every 2nd day)
If I have an O then I'll take the zinc & magnesium that night, even if it's out of sequence. I'll also take 2 spirulina.
In the first week of this new supplementation, I tried ZMA instead of the coenzyme at night. I got the same results. I went to sleep faster, woke up feeling quite refreshed and remembered my dreams. I had none of the memory holes I've had up until a few weeks ago.
I'm deliberately trying to stay within the supplement manufacturers guidelines. Since I started this, my memory has improved dramatically, towards where it was about 10 years ago. I had a blood test last week and everything was "fine". My doctor doesn't have a problem with me taking the ginkgo, he's more curious about the Huperzine. However, I have a brother in law in a high pressure job who has been taking it on and off for years with no negative effects. He's very successful and swears by it to keep his memory sharp.
I'm following up why this is having such an beneficial effect on my vision and it's possible i may have a mild form of MG. This is something I'm getting checked.
Honestly though, the b-vitamins without the ginkgo and huperzine gave me more energy (as expected, I understand the stimulating effect of b6 and b12) but the 2 herbs have made all the difference. I'm actually remembering things that I've learned while in POIS but that seemed lost to me. It's very odd and quite pleasant.
When I'm finished the bottles of supplements I have I'm going to try and make up a custom supplement online so I can just take one thing in the morning and afternoon with no complicated sequence of steps to remember and just the one bottle to bring with me when I travel. Well, maybe 2 as you couldn't mix krill oil with this other stuff without producing something rotten.
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So you dont take any additional b complex, b12, b6. Just this coenzyme b complex? How much of it?
Yes. I've taken methylcobalamin separately before I got this all-in-one coenzyme.
Here's the ingredients list of the Now coenzyme complex. There's plenty active form b12 in there, particularly on the days when I take 2 tablets - the 2nd at night with zinc + magnesium.
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Vitamin C (from Magnesium Ascorbate) 60 mg 100%
Vitamin B-1 (from Thiamine HCl and Cocarboxylase) 50 mg 3330%
Riboflavin (as Riboflavin and from Riboflavin-5 Phosphate Sodium) 50 mg 2940%
Vitamin B-3 (from Inositol Hexanicotinate and NAD) 50 mg 250%
Vitamin B-6 (from Pyridoxine HCl and P-5-P Monohydrate) 50 mg 2500%
Folate (as Folic Acid) 400 mcg 100%
Vitamin B-12 (as Methylcobalamin and Dibencoside) 250 mcg 4170%
Biotin 300 mcg 100%
Vitamin B-5 (from Calcium d-Pantothenate and Pantethine) 50 mg 500%
Betaine 50 mg ?
Alpha Lipoic Acid 50 mg ?
Choline (from Choline Bitartrate) 25 mg ?
PABA (Para-aminobenzoic Acid) 25 mg ?
Inositol (from Inositol Hexanicotinate and Hexaphosphate) 15 mg ?
CoQ10 (Coenzyme Q10) 500 mcg ?
I have other vasodilators such as vinpocetine and I may compare these versus the ginkgo but I'm very happy with the ginkgo right now.
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kurtosis! Thanks for coming by and writing all this given your busy schedule. Your experience is an important resource that we should all take advantage of AND be grateful for. I'd totally sent you a present for helping me feel as good as I have been lately!
Vitamin B6 is the most important coenzym for dopamine production. So if you are taking large doses it works like a stimulant. High dose vitamin therapy is not a cure, its just masking the effects of POIS.
This is pretty much bogus. Starsky, I understand you are really serious about getting better, but just because something doesn't agree with your plan for castration doesn't mean you should be so negative about an alternative solution... This vitiman approach is making people feel better, and it's been done by many people over long periods of time. Castration is a pretty terrible solution, I'm sorry you've felt so bad as to want to do it. I hope you reconsider...
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kurtosis, thanks for posting! :)
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Try to post here, guys!
Thanks!! :) :)
Demo
OK, will do. I'm just taking the coenzymated b complex from Now. I don't take separate b12.
I take the spirulina as a source of protein to help in the synthesis of catecholamines and to help me improve my level of physical fitness and strength.
As for Starsky's comment that this is just masking the effects of POIS, I don't know what that means.
We do not know what POIS is yet so it's impossible to say whether something is masking or treating its effects. For example, if someone is being benefitted by taking welbutrin then I'd say, keep taking it. While we're figuring out the exactly pathology of the illness we also need to be functional.
If POIS is an illness which affects metabolism of certain vitamins then taking those vitamins is a viable treatment rather than merely masking it.
By the way, I didn't even know this was being discussed here until today. Much of the posts about this on the NSF have come from other people (Nightingale and B_Daniel) who are responding to conversations I"m having with them over messages. These weren't messages I initiated so I'm actually just trying to be helpful.
I really am very busy guys. There's no calculated attempt to snub poiscenter and no offence intended towards Daveman or Demografx :)
I disagree with the NSF prohibition on us raising funds but I still think it's an interesting forum and I read other NSF threads.
So what exactly am I taking?
Morning:
- now foods coenzymated complex (1 capsule)
- 2 capsules of spirulina (synergy but I've used other brands). If I'm having a high protein breakfast then I don't necessarily take these.
- 200mcg of huperzine A (every 2nd day).
- 1000mg of vitamin C. (I take this every day).
- 60mg of Ginkgo. (every day)
Afternoon:
- 120mg of Ginkgo (every day)
- some krill oil (just 1 capsule)
Night:
- zinc and magnesium with another Now b complex tablet (every 2nd day)
If I have an O then I'll take the zinc & magnesium that night, even if it's out of sequence. I'll also take 2 spirulina.
In the first week of this new supplementation, I tried ZMA instead of the coenzyme at night. I got the same results. I went to sleep faster, woke up feeling quite refreshed and remembered my dreams. I had none of the memory holes I've had up until a few weeks ago.
I'm deliberately trying to stay within the supplement manufacturers guidelines. Since I started this, my memory has improved dramatically, towards where it was about 10 years ago. I had a blood test last week and everything was "fine". My doctor doesn't have a problem with me taking the ginkgo, he's more curious about the Huperzine. However, I have a brother in law in a high pressure job who has been taking it on and off for years with no negative effects. He's very successful and swears by it to keep his memory sharp.
I'm following up why this is having such an beneficial effect on my vision and it's possible i may have a mild form of MG. This is something I'm getting checked.
Honestly though, the b-vitamins without the ginkgo and huperzine gave me more energy (as expected, I understand the stimulating effect of b6 and b12) but the 2 herbs have made all the difference. I'm actually remembering things that I've learned while in POIS but that seemed lost to me. It's very odd and quite pleasant.
When I'm finished the bottles of supplements I have I'm going to try and make up a custom supplement online so I can just take one thing in the morning and afternoon with no complicated sequence of steps to remember and just the one bottle to bring with me when I travel. Well, maybe 2 as you couldn't mix krill oil with this other stuff without producing something rotten.
This is fantastic! and could help a lot of people!.. it seems very promising. I haven't tried any of the above because I don't have any POIS now, but I like the approach because it is a safe and accessible solution.
These supplements could possibly be replenishing what is required or heavily used in the regeneration process after orgasm. I would like to think this is the other side of the coin for the Animus solution...! Instead of stopping the semen regeneration process as I did, you might be aiding the semen regeneration process... and thereby preventing the POIS symptoms, while retaining your complete function. Anyway, I would totally try this if I had POIS... Good luck in getting the recipe right and your continued work... best regards! Animus
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Hi there
Just thought I should make my first post as I am starting the "Kurtosis" recipe. Hopefully my feedback will help. I'm open minded about it and will report my experiences, allowing for POIS episodes...
I am a "lurker" who has been greatly helped by you all. Last year I managed to get a girlfriend for the first time in 9 years, and we're nearly at our first anniversary! I put this down to garlic and fenugreek. However it gave minimal improvement, and POIS was still quite bad, especially as abstinence is no longer an option... I believe Niacin worked recently for me, but our sex life is too spontaneous to use it effectively. Hence my interest in the recipe. Fingers crossed, without getting my hopes up too much!
You are an amazing group of people. I hope I can contribute to the fund soon.
Bananas
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Thanks for your support Animus.
As you say, this information could be vital in future development for a final path toward the end of POIS.
Strangly enough, it was Starsky's post ALMOST A YEAR AGO (man time flies)
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=197.msg2319#msg2319
that personally started me in the direction of looking at the role of B vitamins in the POIS process. But it was too
complex for me and for many it seems, it didn't really catch on as a potentially valid concept until Kurtosis with his
very good knowledge and troubleshooting skill headed in that direction and began to give it body.
In the end, with niacin working so well it was a fairly natural direction to go. Just too complex for the most of us.
Thanks Kurtosis for simplifying it.
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Thanks for your support Animus.
As you say, this information could be vital in future development for a final path toward the end of POIS.
Strangly enough, it was Starsky's post ALMOST A YEAR AGO (man time flies)
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=197.msg2319#msg2319
that personally started me in the direction of looking at the role of B vitamins in the POIS process. But it was too
complex for me and for many it seems, it didn't really catch on as a potentially valid concept until Kurtosis with his
very good knowledge and troubleshooting skill headed in that direction and began to give it body.
In the end, with niacin working so well it was a fairly natural direction to go. Just too complex for the most of us.
Thanks Kurtosis for simplifying it.
That's fine Daveman. As I've said before, if it hadn't been for Starsky's post it may have taken me a lot longer to progress.
Again, I'd just like to reiterate what I said on the NSF. This may not work for everybody and it may not be a long term solution
BUT (this is an important BUT) after many years of POIS people should not expect an overnight and perfect cure where they just get better every day. Some care has to be given to the genuine anxiety that living with this condition has caused us. That means trying to reduce stress levels as too much cortisol will itself lead to cognitive impairment.
There's also the possibility that we're not all suffering from the same condition (the symptoms are all similar but there are important differences in terms of allergies, flu-like symptoms etc.) OR that some of us have other problems that need additional treatment.
Starsky, have you tried either testosterone patches or neurosteroids like pregnenolone before adopting your current approach? Both would have to be supervised by a doctor of course.
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No, I have no acces to testosterone patches. The only aviable form of testosterone are injections. Im going to try your vitamin regimen...
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Testosterone gel is just as effective as patches. I considered gel, prefer the patches, no need to wait for drying upon application.
No access? It can be obtained anywhere.
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Bananas, I like the name. And Starsky - you're on here! Hi.
Hey guys, just wanted to say that I'm 4 days into Kurtosis' treatment and I am definitely, definitely feeling better than usual. As of now I'm only 4 days in and this is already marginally better than the Wellbutrin. I'll keep you all posted on my progress.
Nightingale, can we change the name of this thread to "Kurtosis Method - IT WORKS" or something along those lines. It'll make it slightly easier for others to locate, and Kurtosis deserves all the credit in the world for this.
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Bananas, I like the name. And Starsky - you're on here! Hi.
Hey guys, just wanted to say that I'm 4 days into Kurtosis' treatment and I am definitely, definitely feeling better than usual. As of now I'm only 4 days in and this is already marginally better than the Wellbutrin. I'll keep you all posted on my progress.
Nightingale, can we change the name of this thread to "Kurtosis Method - IT WORKS" or something along those lines. It'll make it slightly easier for others to locate, and Kurtosis deserves all the credit in the world for this.
I don't like claiming credit for something that's partially down to Starsky and the biochemist he referenced in his post :)
B_Daniel, can you give me an idea of how much better you feel than before you started taking wellbutrin. As in, where where you and where are you now on a (very rough) 9 point scale of
1 - in POIS hell. constant Physical pain, unable to think or function, suicidal depression.
2 - very depressed but not suicidal, constant cognitive issues, flu like symptoms and some physical pain, difficulty function
3 - depressed, cognitive issues during POIS, weakness/flu during POIS, minimal physical pain, some difficulty functioning
4 - a bit depressed, cognitive issues for less than 1-2 days after O, minimal physical pain and weakness, difficulty functioning but most people wouldn't know it.
5 - neutral feeling, some POIS cognitive issues but able to function in day to day activities, mild flu like symptoms.
6 - optimistic, only mild cognitive issues, mild flu like symptoms for less than a day after an O, able to function
7 - optimistic, 1 of either mild flu or mild cognitive symptoms for a few hours after an O, able to function
8 - very positive outlook, POIS symptoms are difficult to detect anymore, cognitive abilities are normalised, functioning and planning for life after POIS.
9 - happy, cured, excelling. cognitive abilities appear to be actually enhanced.
These are very rough categories and the stats person in me knows they're leading. At worst my POIS was somewhere between 1 and 2 (say 1.5). Right now I'm somewhere between 7 and 8. If the trajectory continues I'd hope to reach 8 this month. At 9, someone would be so elated at being "cured" that they'd effectively think they were superman :) This would abate after a while.
If not, I have to rethink the treatment, which I'll do as I've deliberately held off using neurosteroids this time around and with ultimate flexibility to design a supplement I'd probably vary vasodilators to reduce the likelihood that any one stops working effectively.
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Bananas, I like the name. And Starsky - you're on here! Hi.
Hey guys, just wanted to say that I'm 4 days into Kurtosis' treatment and I am definitely, definitely feeling better than usual. As of now I'm only 4 days in and this is already marginally better than the Wellbutrin. I'll keep you all posted on my progress.
Nightingale, can we change the name of this thread to "Kurtosis Method - IT WORKS" or something along those lines. It'll make it slightly easier for others to locate, and Kurtosis deserves all the credit in the world for this.
I don't like claiming credit for something that's partially down to Starsky and the biochemist he referenced in his post :)
B_Daniel, can you give me an idea of how much better you feel than before you started taking wellbutrin. As in, where where you and where are you now on a (very rough) 9 point scale of
1 - in POIS hell. constant Physical pain, unable to think or function, suicidal depression.
2 - very depressed but not suicidal, constant cognitive issues, flu like symptoms and some physical pain, difficulty function
3 - depressed, cognitive issues during POIS, weakness/flu during POIS, minimal physical pain, some difficulty functioning
4 - a bit depressed, cognitive issues for less than 1-2 days after O, minimal physical pain and weakness, difficulty functioning but most people wouldn't know it.
5 - neutral feeling, some POIS cognitive issues but able to function in day to day activities, mild flu like symptoms.
6 - optimistic, only mild cognitive issues, mild flu like symptoms for less than a day after an O, able to function
7 - optimistic, 1 of either mild flu or mild cognitive symptoms for a few hours after an O, able to function
8 - very positive outlook, POIS symptoms are difficult to detect anymore, cognitive abilities are normalised, functioning and planning for life after POIS.
9 - happy, cured, excelling. cognitive abilities appear to be actually enhanced.
These are very rough categories and the stats person in me knows they're leading. At worst my POIS was somewhere between 1 and 2 (say 1.5). Right now I'm somewhere between 7 and 8. If the trajectory continues I'd hope to reach 8 this month. At 9, someone would be so elated at being "cured" that they'd effectively think they were superman :) This would abate after a while.
If not, I have to rethink the treatment, which I'll do as I've deliberately held off using neurosteroids this time around and with ultimate flexibility to design a supplement I'd probably vary vasodilators to reduce the likelihood that any one stops working effectively.
All parts are important. I knew there had to be something with niacin, but had no clue what. Starsky’s post sparked something, but most of us still didn’t know what. Kurtosis, you can justifiably claim to have opened and matured greatly the development. That’s the good part about our group, where-ever its home is, it’s a group effort!
There’s still lots to do, and like Kurtosis says, we have to approach this with great caution…. We’ve all been let down before! But by God we’ve given the reasearches a great head start!!
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All parts are important. I knew there had to be something with niacin, but had no clue what. Starsky’s post sparked something, but most of us still didn’t know what. Kurtosis, you can justifiably claim to have opened and matured greatly the development. That’s the good part about our group, where-ever its home is, it’s a group effort!
There’s still lots to do, and like Kurtosis says, we have to approach this with great caution…. We’ve all been let down before! But by God we’ve given the reasearches a great head start!!
Another point guys. Fenugreek, niacin and ginkgo all have something in common.
They're all vasodilators
- niacin mentioned here (specifically nicotinic acid which gives the famous flush) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasodilation
- fenugreek and ginkgo mentioned here http://home.caregroup.org/clinical/altmed/interactions/Herb_Groups/Vasodilator.htm
Interestingly huperzine and ginkgo together should have a synergistic increased hypotensive effect.
Has anybody had their blood pressure checked after having an O and/or have a history of hypertension in their family?
Does anyone have a blood pressure monitor at home?
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Has anybody had their blood pressure checked after having an O and/or have a history of hypertension in their family?
Does anyone have a blood pressure monitor at home?
My high blood pressure is controlled by meds. Killed my father (no BP meds in the 60s-70's). So definite hypertension history.
I bought 2 BP monitors, returned both. Created too much anxiety, plus dubious readings at times.
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All parts are important. I knew there had to be something with niacin, but had no clue what. Starsky’s post sparked something, but most of us still didn’t know what. Kurtosis, you can justifiably claim to have opened and matured greatly the development. That’s the good part about our group, where-ever its home is, it’s a group effort!
There’s still lots to do, and like Kurtosis says, we have to approach this with great caution…. We’ve all been let down before! But by God we’ve given the reasearches a great head start!!
Another point guys. Fenugreek, niacin and ginkgo all have something in common.
They're all vasodilators
- niacin mentioned here (specifically nicotinic acid which gives the famous flush) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasodilation
- fenugreek and ginkgo mentioned here http://home.caregroup.org/clinical/altmed/interactions/Herb_Groups/Vasodilator.htm
Interestingly huperzine and ginkgo together should have a synergistic increased hypotensive effect.
Has anybody had their blood pressure checked after having an O and/or have a history of hypertension in their family?
Does anyone have a blood pressure monitor at home?
I have high blood pressure (controlled by medicine) but have noticed that even though I feel like I have higher pressure in POIS, it's actually lower.
My tests haven't been extensive, I've measured a couple of times in POIS when I thought my pressure felt high.
P.S. This before I was using niacin.
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On the topic of hypertension, my family has a strong history of it. My father is a cardiologist and he even has it.
I'm 26. My blood pressure has been actually fantastic up until 2 years ago. I would constantly get asked by nurses if I were an athlete, and I was, running distance in high school. But 2 years ago I developed metabolic syndrome after being on all the psychiatric medication I take, so my pressure was not as stellar, but not too bad either. I have lost weight and no longer have metabolic syndrome. I had developed high triglyceride levels but those are now back to normal.
I am able to take my own blood pressure, so I'll have to remember to take it immediately after my next orgasm
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Take it at varying time throughout day 1 as well, or even for the first few days, maybe take notes.
Could be interesting.
If I have POIS again, I'll try to remember as well.
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I´ve been following this thread closely and i want to tell you that Daniel(He is probably was one of the first ones who took a B1/B6/B12 vitamin complex) continues to experience an excellent relief! I think he is taking less and less of it - take this with a grain of salt, we should wait for him to explain his plan better (Be very careful with Hidroxil(B1/B6/B12 complex) since it can cause severe side effects if it is taken continuously atfter 2-3 weeks) and he has told me that he got the feeling that when he stops taking the complex(something that he plans to do very soon), he is not going to need it "anymore".
I am skeptic about this, but he seems to be very confident. I´ve asked him to come to this same thread to explain us his experience with better details.
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"he got the feeling that when he stops taking the complex(something that he plans to do very soon), he is not going to need it "anymore". "
That's what I though about niacin.... NOT!
But since b12 is cumulative it may react that way for a while. And if he was right, we'd just all have to go out and celebrate.
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...
- now foods coenzymated complex (1 capsule)
- 2 capsules of spirulina (synergy but I've used other brands). If I'm having a high protein breakfast then I don't necessarily take these.
- 200mcg of huperzine A (every 2nd day).
- 1000mg of vitamin C. (I take this every day).
- 60mg of Ginkgo. (every day)
Afternoon:
- 120mg of Ginkgo (every day)
- some krill oil (just 1 capsule)
Night:
- zinc and magnesium with another Now b complex tablet (every 2nd day)
...
Kurtosis, please let me know the brands of them.
Thanks.
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...
- now foods coenzymated complex (1 capsule)
- 2 capsules of spirulina (synergy but I've used other brands). If I'm having a high protein breakfast then I don't necessarily take these.
- 200mcg of huperzine A (every 2nd day).
- 1000mg of vitamin C. (I take this every day).
- 60mg of Ginkgo. (every day)
Afternoon:
- 120mg of Ginkgo (every day)
- some krill oil (just 1 capsule)
Night:
- zinc and magnesium with another Now b complex tablet (every 2nd day)
...
Kurtosis, please let me know the brands of them.
Thanks.
You can get pretty much everything from Now if you like, including the "Neptune Krill Oil". This might be useful as I can't find another manufacturer doing an equivalent coenzymated b complex and they're quite a large supplement manufacturer with their own labs.
This next bit is just an opinion and you can take it with a few pinches of salt! Some supplement companies are really just branding with the supplements manufactured and tested by 3rd parties. I'm a bit wary of this as they don't have control over the product quality and don't have the capacity to carry out their own research. It's important to recognise that pretty much anybody here could set themselves up as a supplement company in the morning and outsource the production of "Genius Powder" (or whatever fancy name) to a 3rd party anywhere around the world. The whole process may work beautifully but, if it doesn't, there's just a marketing company.
I get a bit more peace of mind knowing I'm buying stuff from a US owned and operated company that has a lot to lose if there was a problem with their quality. I also like solgar. Before you buy a cheap supplement online I'd do a bit of research to reassure yourself that you're buying from a manufacturer with their own lab.
Except the huperzine where I use source naturals. I've also tried swansons huperzine and that was fine too.
I know others used GNC brand ginkgo and that seemed to work fine also. Vogel do a good quality ginkgo.
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With regard to kurtosis's recipe it seems especially likely that the huperzine a is what's worked such wonders for his memory. I don't know if anyone's yet brought this up, but its got 2 things going for it: 1) it's a nootropic, which is a class of supplements thought to improve brain function and memory; and 2) its an acetycholinesterase inhibitor -- acetylcholinesterase is something that's suspected to play a role in cognitive decline in alzheimer's patients.
While I think that it's probably unlikely that POIS's cognitive defect occurs by the same mechanism as Alzheimers (I mean, our more senior members would be suffering from pretty serious decline by now), I have noted certain similarities in our symptoms and have long thought acetycholinesterase inhibitors were interesting. And i've been super interested in trying nootropics for quite some time, but it slipped my mind (somewhat appropriately).
Because of my skepticism of the acetycholinesterase theory and because i've got asthma (and huperzine is thought to be bad for asthmatics), i've purchased a few nootropic supplements and am going to be seeing how they work. I've picked up Choline, vinpocetine and piracetam, and am going to start experimenting with them. I'll keep you in the loop!
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Egordon, I'm looking forward to your results! (And please be careful!)
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With regard to kurtosis's recipe it seems especially likely that the huperzine a is what's worked such wonders for his memory. I don't know if anyone's yet brought this up, but its got 2 things going for it: 1) it's a nootropic, which is a class of supplements thought to improve brain function and memory; and 2) its an acetycholinesterase inhibitor -- acetylcholinesterase is something that's suspected to play a role in cognitive decline in alzheimer's patients.
While I think that it's probably unlikely that POIS's cognitive defect occurs by the same mechanism as Alzheimers (I mean, our more senior members would be suffering from pretty serious decline by now), I have noted certain similarities in our symptoms and have long thought acetycholinesterase inhibitors were interesting. And i've been super interested in trying nootropics for quite some time, but it slipped my mind (somewhat appropriately).
Because of my skepticism of the acetycholinesterase theory and because i've got asthma (and huperzine is thought to be bad for asthmatics), i've purchased a few nootropic supplements and am going to be seeing how they work. I've picked up Choline, vinpocetine and piracetam, and am going to start experimenting with them. I'll keep you in the loop!
Hi,
Yes, I know how huperzine works. It was mentioned on the NSF. One of the problems of having 2 places where POIS is being discussed and parallel messages being sent to/fro.
I found ginkgo works better that vinpocetine but both give relief and I think this may be due to the vasodilatory effect. Ideally, I'd like to use both and cycle them. I've also tried vinpocetine and huperzine together. Again, it definitely has a stimulating effect and reducers the cognitive symptoms of POIS. However, I've found ginkgo and huperzine appears to work best for me. You have to remember that my goal wasn't to cure everybody, it was just to improve things for me and then relate that back to everybody else.
Apologies if that sounded selfish but I have to live with me & so must assume ultimate responsibility for dealing with this illness :)
I did a LOT of experimentation before arriving at this combination. About the only thing I'd add would be taurine but I want to avoid pushing my testosterone levels too high too quickly.
Piracetam only works for me when I'm having no POIS symptoms. I have some at home and I tried it last weekend. It was great but, in the past, it hasn't improved my POIS. I find it quite inconsistent even with choline supplementation. When it works, there's no doubt you feel fantastic and have numerous brainwaves but, for me at least, it was accompanied by crashing lows.
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Fascinating, guys, thanks for sparing me the experimenting. Always curious how far "smart drugs" can actually take you and how dangerous are they?
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Kurtosis,
Fascinating! I'm interested in how my results will differ from yours as i've more or less beat POIS (I use Niacin regularly and take 2 Celebrex post orgasm -- it eliminates all my most severe symptoms completely) but still don't feel like my cognitive processes are completely "normal" or as good as they could be. So rather than looking for a cure for POIS symptoms, I'm just looking for a way to boost my brain -- which is clearly still suffering from some sort of (fairly mild) disorder -- to "normal" levels. Hopefully, I too will realize some of the gains that you've already felt.
Oh, and kurtosis, don't feel bad about not sharing all of your incredible research. We're all busy and... it happens. I've been meaning to do a post about Celebrex for sometime now but haven't quite gotten around to it. (I've alluded to it several times, but it's really deserving of its own thread.)
Demo,
Many of these drugs are... sketchy. Huperzine and other acetycholinesterase inhibitors have shown great promise in alleviating Alzheimer's symptoms and, as a result, have been the subject of clinical trials. (We know that they should be taken with great caution in patients with preexisting heart problems, as they can slow the heart to dangerous levels.) The other nootropics, though, (including the ones that I bought) we know far far less about.
I'm going to be taking fairly small doses with a great deal of caution and hoping for the best. My quality of life is of great importance to me, so i don't really feel like i have options. I want to feel normal in socializing with people. I want to have professional success. So i've got to try some things that we may later may discover are not completely safe. It's the life we live, i guess.
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Kurtosis,
Fascinating! I'm interested in how my results will differ from yours as i've more or less beat POIS (I use Niacin regularly and take 2 Celebrex post orgasm -- it eliminates all my most severe symptoms completely) but still don't feel like my cognitive processes are completely "normal" or as good as they could be. So rather than looking for a cure for POIS symptoms, I'm just looking for a way to boost my brain -- which is clearly still suffering from some sort of (fairly mild) disorder -- to "normal" levels. Hopefully, I too will realize some of the gains that you've already felt.
Oh, and kurtosis, don't feel bad about not sharing all of your incredible research. We're all busy and... it happens. I've been meaning to do a post about Celebrex for sometime now but haven't quite gotten around to it. (I've alluded to it several times, but it's really deserving of its own thread.)
Demo,
Many of these drugs are... sketchy. Huperzine and other acetycholinesterase inhibitors have shown great promise in alleviating Alzheimer's symptoms and, as a result, have been the subject of clinical trials. (We know that they should be taken with great caution in patients with preexisting heart problems, as they can slow the heart to dangerous levels.) The other nootropics, though, (including the ones that I bought) we know far far less about.
I'm going to be taking fairly small doses with a great deal of caution and hoping for the best. My quality of life is of great importance to me, so i don't really feel like i have options. I want to feel normal in socializing with people. I want to have professional success. So i've got to try some things that we may later may discover are not completely safe. It's the life we live, i guess.
Hi Egordon,
Use of Celebrex, a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory is very interesting. Good idea.
Actually, I meant to do a post about that. Ginkgo is a vasodilator and huperzine appears to increase it's vasodilatory effect. Ideally I'd like to take a smaller amount of Huperzine (say 100mcg) 4-5 days a week) rather than 200mcg every 2nd day.
However, I'm trying to get to the "happy" place where I'm functioning perfectly again. Not quite there yet but, then again, I have pretty high standards :)
That's why I'd like to get a specific formula made up, to give more control. I'd use less huperzine, include some vinpocetine and consider some SAMe for its stimulant effect and inflammation management. Omega 3s are natural COX-2 inhibitors as are some grape and berry extracts. Blueberry extract looks very promising in animal studies. In enough quantities Omega 3s work similar to celebrex. I might go back to 2 krill oil a day as I have a balancing act between the rise in testosterone this treatment is producing and the modest increase in adult acne that's resulting from it.
For example, pregnenolone kills my POIS dead but it gives me skin problems including bad acne and itching. These are side effects I can't cope with. The current treatment is nearly as effective but without the unpleasant side effects. If a POIS sufferer had no history of such problems I'd suggest they had some taurine to the supplementation but, for me, I can't handle that much of it.
Overall, I want to avoid a decrease in brain capacity due to POIS. I don't want to arrive at the situation where my POIS is cured but I have little recollection of years of work and study. So herbs, vitamins and amino acids that improve mood, stimulate neurogenesis and reduce inflammation are useful. I've had to do a lot of research into how to achieve these affects with herbs and supplements as I have yet to find a doctor who will prescribe me anything more than an anti-depressant (including Welbutrin). I have heard years of suggestions that I wouldn't able to do my job if there was really something wrong and that there was no neurological damage on an MRI so everything must be fine. Anxiety/ depression - take your pick!
Back to Huperzine :) In clinical trials, people have been given Huperzine in multiples of the 200mcg dose every day and, in some patients, it has led to arrhythmia. Others were fine. Most I'm also relatively fit and try to get regular exercise, even if it's just walks every day. When you're taking vasodilators it's necessary stay fit.
Huperzine is not advised for asthma-sufferers but I've noticed no ill-effects. I have relatively mild asthma and my asthma seems to be getting less severe since I started taking b vitamins and zinc. So, while I'm not worried about the effects myself, Huperzine is not a drug that someone with a pre-existing heart condition should be taking. It's also contraindicated for people on tricyclic anti-depressants, those on parkinsons medication and those on other medication that's designed to lower heart rate. I'm not on any of this but others might be. Please check with your doctor.
As for piracetam, some claim it's very safe. I believe it is but I found the results psychologically inconsistent. I found myself chasing a piracetam clarity that I could never quite seem to get right whether it was dependent on mood, choline, other neuro-chemicals.. I just don't know.
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Actually EGb 761 is the technical term for the standardised extract of ginkgo biloba leaf. I've been looking through its compounds and their properties. One of these in querctin which is the most potent natural COX-2 inhibitor.
Just because G. Biloba doesn't "cure" alzheimers doesn't mean it deserves a bad rap. This sometimes happens when a herb that has been used for years (in Ginkgo's case hundreds of years of documented use in Asia) is posited as a cure for some illness and is subjected to a medical trial.
For a start, they treat the herb as if it was a standard pharmaceutical and under-prescribe the dosage.
The following is worth a read http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/gps.2662/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22459264
The study is significant and the conclusion is supported by a p score of less than 0.001, meaning that it's very clear from the study that there was a difference between placebo and ginkgo.
Even http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19585476
This doesn't mean G Biloba cures cancer but it does point towards some of the beneficial effects of its chemical components.
Food for thought, as they say.
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You can get pretty much everything from Now if you like, including the "Neptune Krill Oil". This might be useful as I can't find another manufacturer doing an equivalent coenzymated b complex and they're quite a large supplement manufacturer with their own labs.
...
Thanks for your precious advice on choosing the right products.
I'd also like to know whether you take zinc and magnesium as two separate capsules.
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This is the best page I've ever read about nootropics and smart drugs! Thank you!!
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You can get pretty much everything from Now if you like, including the "Neptune Krill Oil". This might be useful as I can't find another manufacturer doing an equivalent coenzymated b complex and they're quite a large supplement manufacturer with their own labs.
...
Thanks for your precious advice on choosing the right products.
I'd also like to know whether you take zinc and magnesium as two separate capsules.
I do but only because I can't find the 2 together without b6 :)
22 mg of zinc & 400 mg of magnesium.
There are also ZMA products out there with similar concentrations but these also have pyroxidine HCl form of b6. I don't need any more b6 as I'm taking this coenzymated b complex once / twice every alternate days.
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Interesting I was reading about allergy attacks and came across this.
http://www.ehow.com/how_4433081_cure-allergies-natural-remedies.html
mentions ginkgo biloba
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Thank you all for what you are doing, I think in my case it's not just an allergic reaction but there is also a hormonal component. Niacin in part by the allergy problem, taking off my brain fog, but does not remove the physical exhaustion, eyes closed and remain somewhat vacant look, slowness of thought .. etc etc. i think that people who have solved the Pois with niacin suffer from allergic just a version. I do not have such skin reactions when come in contact with it. I'm beginning to believe that there is more than one variant.
The fish oil I take omega 3 fish OMEGOR Vitalis, which is one of the best (IMHO). And a tablet b complex light that makes me vivid dreams, but I can not quantify the effect on POIS. The next step is to order the ginko biloba and try nicotinamide, i will let you know .
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Please do. Let me know the results you get. It may take some time to work so do not worry. If you're feeling very tired can I recommend you try acetyl l-carnitine also.
Combined with ginkgo that gives me a lot of energy. I don't take it all time , once a week, but you could take it more if you felt it beneficial.
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Kurtosis,
Can you "feel" when the vitamins may be "protecting" you?
Since I've been using Niacin, I REALLY resist going back to POIS. Even WITH niacin, a couple of times, for reasons of
having eaten too soon before or whatever, I've had a couple of worse sessions, but have never gone back to a full one.
I really fear having sex without taking my niacin. Besides, at this point I haven't found the exact recipe of yours, just a good B complex that is similar to your recipe (although not co-enzyme).
I don't really feel much different, maybe don't sleep quite as well (mainly for the diarrhetic effect) and have neon yellow urine. My dosage is on the "lighter side", rather than heavier.
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Kurtosis,
Can you "feel" when the vitamins may be "protecting" you?
Since I've been using Niacin, I REALLY resist going back to POIS. Even WITH niacin, a couple of times, for reasons of
having eaten too soon before or whatever, I've had a couple of worse sessions, but have never gone back to a full one.
I really fear having sex without taking my niacin. Besides, at this point I haven't found the exact recipe of yours, just a good B complex that is similar to your recipe (although not co-enzyme).
I don't really feel much different, maybe don't sleep quite as well (mainly for the diarrhetic effect) and have neon yellow urine. My dosage is on the "lighter side", rather than heavier.
Yes, I definitely feel better. I feel that the b vitamins are diminishing POIS and that the ginkgo & krill oil are improving my mind. I'm seeing definite signs of better learning and less of the astonishing forgetting where it would be like days never happened. This improved again when I added some acetyl l-carnitine. A small amount of huperzine appears beneficial but I have some muscle spasms in one of my eyes and it's entirely possible the huperzine's effect on me is nothing more than helping to calm this. I'm taking it once every 3 days now.
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Kurtosis,
Can you "feel" when the vitamins may be "protecting" you?
Since I've been using Niacin, I REALLY resist going back to POIS. Even WITH niacin, a couple of times, for reasons of
having eaten too soon before or whatever, I've had a couple of worse sessions, but have never gone back to a full one.
I really fear having sex without taking my niacin. Besides, at this point I haven't found the exact recipe of yours, just a good B complex that is similar to your recipe (although not co-enzyme).
I don't really feel much different, maybe don't sleep quite as well (mainly for the diarrhetic effect) and have neon yellow urine. My dosage is on the "lighter side", rather than heavier.
Yes, I definitely feel better. I feel that the b vitamins are diminishing POIS and that the ginkgo & krill oil are improving my mind. I'm seeing definite signs of better learning and less of the astonishing forgetting where it would be like days never happened. This improved again when I added some acetyl l-carnitine. A small amount of huperzine appears beneficial but I have some muscle spasms in one of my eyes and it's entirely possible the huperzine's effect on me is nothing more than helping to calm this. I'm taking it once every 3 days now.
OK Thanks. What I really mean to ask, is if you can feel before hand that the vitamins are going to work for you (if it is your first time). This weekend I will have been taking them for about a week, but feel real uncomfortable about having an orgasm without my niacin.
I feel about the same as usual, that is no particular sensation that anything is different (other than the neon yellow urine and having to go quite often) I understand those are effects of B2 and B6 respectively.
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I'm going to try co-enzyme B, zinc, and ginkgo, when they arrive.
Really wish to end 'it' and get back my life.
Wishing it'll work.
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Kurtosis,
Can you "feel" when the vitamins may be "protecting" you?
Since I've been using Niacin, I REALLY resist going back to POIS. Even WITH niacin, a couple of times, for reasons of
having eaten too soon before or whatever, I've had a couple of worse sessions, but have never gone back to a full one.
I really fear having sex without taking my niacin. Besides, at this point I haven't found the exact recipe of yours, just a good B complex that is similar to your recipe (although not co-enzyme).
I don't really feel much different, maybe don't sleep quite as well (mainly for the diarrhetic effect) and have neon yellow urine. My dosage is on the "lighter side", rather than heavier.
Yes, I definitely feel better. I feel that the b vitamins are diminishing POIS and that the ginkgo & krill oil are improving my mind. I'm seeing definite signs of better learning and less of the astonishing forgetting where it would be like days never happened. This improved again when I added some acetyl l-carnitine. A small amount of huperzine appears beneficial but I have some muscle spasms in one of my eyes and it's entirely possible the huperzine's effect on me is nothing more than helping to calm this. I'm taking it once every 3 days now.
OK Thanks. What I really mean to ask, is if you can feel before hand that the vitamins are going to work for you (if it is your first time). This weekend I will have been taking them for about a week, but feel real uncomfortable about having an orgasm without my niacin.
I feel about the same as usual, that is no particular sensation that anything is different (other than the neon yellow urine and having to go quite often) I understand those are effects of B2 and B6 respectively.
OK, so when I take the b coenzymes, I feel more alert and have better energy. I can feel my memory working better when I take the ginkgo and the nice surprise is that POIS doesn't interrupt it. It's not that I don't feel a little wiped just after an O but it's not so that I can't think or remember things so it's a more pleasant experience than POIS and almost relaxing. If I feel a bit more tired I take spirulina and it just sorts it out. So yes, I can feel a difference before and after.
I also feel physically stronger which I believe is because my testosterone levels have increased and I have more energy and inclination to exercise.
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Please do. Let me know the results you get. It may take some time to work so do not worry. If you're feeling very tired can I recommend you try acetyl l-carnitine also.
Combined with ginkgo that gives me a lot of energy. I don't take it all time , once a week, but you could take it more if you felt it beneficial.
I'm waiting for these products
-Ginkgo Biloba, 60 mg (is not so safetly!!?!... http://www.farmacovigilanza.org/fitovigilanza/interazioni/008.asp)
-Niacinnamide nature's way 500mg
-and http://www.naturesway.com/Products/Vitamins/14929-Alive-Multi-Vitamin-No-Iron-Added.aspx seems to be high dose multivit (what do u think aobut it?)
- i don't know where i can find acetyl l-carnitine.
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Please do. Let me know the results you get. It may take some time to work so do not worry. If you're feeling very tired can I recommend you try acetyl l-carnitine also.
Combined with ginkgo that gives me a lot of energy. I don't take it all time , once a week, but you could take it more if you felt it beneficial.
I'm waiting for these products
-Ginkgo Biloba, 60 mg (is not so safetly!!?!... http://www.farmacovigilanza.org/fitovigilanza/interazioni/008.asp)
-Niacinnamide nature's way 500mg
-and http://www.naturesway.com/Products/Vitamins/14929-Alive-Multi-Vitamin-No-Iron-Added.aspx seems to be high dose multivit (what do u think aobut it?)
- i don't know where i can find acetyl l-carnitine.
Nothing is safe! When the wrong patient meets the wrong drug the results can be horrible.
Yes there are possible interactions. These are very rare from the literature I've read but it's fair to say that you shouldn't mix 2 drugs that impede clotting at the same time.
Ginkgo is a drug. It might be herb-derived but it's a drug. One that has been taken for hundreds of years (at least) by Chinese without producing serious illness in the majority of those who took it but that the problem with anything that has a physiological effect is that it must also have side effects. For example, taking large amounts of b12 could promote cancer cells metastasising. I'm not sure the literature is conclusive but it will encourage cell division so if you have an undiagnosed tumour then taking lots of b12 could be a problem. Regular supplementation with some amino acids that can be made by the body will reduce our body's ability to make those amino acids. If I didn't have a problematic condition I might not risk any of these things. Unfortunately I do. It's a constant trade-off between what enables us to function and what may be doing long term harm. I'm finding that about 90-120 mg of ginkgo / day on top of the b vitamins gives me good relief from POIS.
There are millions of people, as we speak, consuming food with high levels of mono sodium glutamate which is a known excito-toxin which may have a detrimental effect on their long term neurological health. Or it may not. Some people smoke and develop horrible cancers, others seem to be more resistant.
I'm not a doctor. Just an engineer with a broad interest in chemistry and biochem since my college days. I'm relating my personal experiences but I've said a few times that you need to read up on anything you take. Personally, I feel the risks associated with me taking ginkgo and co-enzymated b vitamins are low. A world-leading endocrinologist said taking extra zinc (up to about 50mg / day) was beneficial for hormonal health so long as you added about 5% of whatever you take in copper also. (say a 20:1 ratio). So I believe what I'm taking is relatively safe. If I start to feel nauseous or have any problems I'll reduce what I'm taking immediately.
Here's a list of things you shouldn't take with ginkgo
http://www.drugs.com/drug-class/platelet-aggregation-inhibitors.html
There's a good categorical list over on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiplatelet_drug
You should not take gingko or large amounts of fish oils (and certainly not both together) for several days before any surgical procedure even if you're perfectly healthy. Technically, combining >60mg of ginkgo with large amounts of fish oils is not a great idea either but it's very very difficult to be precise without a medical history and a blood test. Haemophiliacs for instance should not take ginkgo. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemophilia)
Having said that I cut myself while shaving a few days ago and noticed no problem in healing. I have not noticed any problems myself and I've known people who took ginkgo almost every day for decades with no problems.
Acetyl L-carnitine is available from lots of online nutritional stores and a "well known online retailer" called after a South American river (or a tribe of warrior women depending on how you look at it :))
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Although I am studying engineering and I have the same approccio.Non a doctor before trying new drugs quache try to inform me.
Thank you for what you wrote. Certainly if I had not this serious problem, do not take these medicines.
So Ginkgo biloba should not be taken with fish oil? why?
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both blood thinners.
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both blood thinners.
Yes that's the reason but I'm taking 1 krill oil with about 120mg of ginkgo and I'm not noticing any problem. So I guess the honest answer is that you should be aware of the risks. You'd have to take quite a few capsules of fish oil to have the same anti-coagulant effect as aspirin (also depends on potency/concentration of the fish oil) but the same kind of precautions as described at
http://www.livestrong.com/article/501861-can-i-take-fish-oil-pills-with-aspirin/
would apply.
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I just went on a run today, and was surprised to feel more energized than I usually do. My fatigue didn't set in as early as it usually does. I've been taking these vitamins for over 5 weeks now. I just had an "O" yesterday accompanied with niacin. I really feel good right now. It's really genuine, I'm not having to consciously force myself to think positively. I typically have to tell myself I'm feeling good lol.
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I just went on a run today, and was surprised to feel more energized than I usually do. My fatigue didn't set in as early as it usually does. I've been taking these vitamins for over 5 weeks now. I just had an "O" yesterday accompanied with niacin. I really feel good right now. It's really genuine, I'm not having to consciously force myself to think positively. I typically have to tell myself I'm feeling good lol.
I know the feeling. And going for a run is a great step as it has all kinds of positive effects on your neurochemistry, including levels of Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Function (BDNF) which basically helps you learn and feel intellectually productive.
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I just went on a run today, and was surprised to feel more energized than I usually do. My fatigue didn't set in as early as it usually does. I've been taking these vitamins for over 5 weeks now. I just had an "O" yesterday accompanied with niacin. I really feel good right now. It's really genuine, I'm not having to consciously force myself to think positively. I typically have to tell myself I'm feeling good lol.
Tell me exactly what you're taking and the doses,thank u.
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(http://www.poiscenter.com/newsletters/NL-6.jpg)
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/d7d7d72f.jpg) (http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/0d0e0e35.jpg) (http://www.rarediseases.org/about/support/research-donations/fg_base_view_p3)
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Kurtosis, what sorts of eye problems do you have? Because I have some visual problems too, just want to specifically see what you have. Also, niacin did not really help me too much, and like others on here, I have the constant semen in urine issue going on. Many times i get a cloudy white or foggy substance spread throughout my urine, I thought it was calcium, but took a urine test and they found no calcium, I have to assume its semen particulate, because I do have major prostate issues. Therefore, it seems the vitamin regimen would be worth a shot. What do you consider essential for the muscle pains, fatigue and concentration issues? Huperzine seems very intersting
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Hi All,
Haven't posted in quite a while, as time has been very tight for me - but I have always been lurking as with many of us.
Thought I had to write something here as I have recently tried this Vitamin Supplementation after reading Kurtosis and Nightingales accounts.
I have been using Niacin for quote awhile had never been a total cure for me. It Definitely helped, but I have always maintained that it helped me around 70% - I still felt quote fatigued at times and my head wasn't always clear. That added with the fact that you have to take Niacin at a somewhere around 1 to 1.5 hrs before sex always is a real pain.
Before Niacin, I had already tried a Mega B Complex, Ginko & Vitamin C but had given up as they individually had not a huge benefit - So I had this stuff lying around, I decided to give this a go. First Day, I took two B Complex, Two Ginko and Vitamin C in the morning and in the evening, second day same but in the evening accompanied this with 200mg of Niacin (where I usually take 300mg) for the evenings events. That night I O'ed twice within about 3 hours with not much noticable cognitive or fatigue affects that evening or the next day. I would say the niacin effectiveness was increased to about 90%+ But I can't be sure if the additional supplementation is helping the Niacin or if the supplements are working on their own, because I have not been game enough to try O'ing without the Niacin.
This was almost two weeks ago, and I have since added Magnensium. I have O'ed about 5 Times since then on the same supplementation schedule (not twice in one night though), again with 90%+ effectiveness. I do have to say though , sometimes I feel in the afternoon the POIS coming back a little stronger, I take another B and another Ginko and a Magnesium and within 30 minutes its all good..
I've ordered some Huperzine A, Krill Oil, Spirulina and Zinc to add to my regimen which should arrive in a few weeks. I hope to cut down on the amount of B Tablets with these...and maybe try without Niacin.
There is DEFINATELY something to this guys. Thanks to Kurtosis for Pioneering this and for everyone trying this.
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Kurtosis, what sorts of eye problems do you have? Because I have some visual problems too, just want to specifically see what you have. Also, niacin did not really help me too much, and like others on here, I have the constant semen in urine issue going on. Many times i get a cloudy white or foggy substance spread throughout my urine, I thought it was calcium, but took a urine test and they found no calcium, I have to assume its semen particulate, because I do have major prostate issues. Therefore, it seems the vitamin regimen would be worth a shot. What do you consider essential for the muscle pains, fatigue and concentration issues? Huperzine seems very intersting
Double vision. Sometimes it's fine but other times my eyes can hardly focus. It's very very annoying.
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Hi All,
Haven't posted in quite a while, as time has been very tight for me - but I have always been lurking as with many of us.
Thought I had to write something here as I have recently tried this Vitamin Supplementation after reading Kurtosis and Nightingales accounts.
I have been using Niacin for quote awhile had never been a total cure for me. It Definitely helped, but I have always maintained that it helped me around 70% - I still felt quote fatigued at times and my head wasn't always clear. That added with the fact that you have to take Niacin at a somewhere around 1 to 1.5 hrs before sex always is a real pain.
Before Niacin, I had already tried a Mega B Complex, Ginko & Vitamin C but had given up as they individually had not a huge benefit - So I had this stuff lying around, I decided to give this a go. First Day, I took two B Complex, Two Ginko and Vitamin C in the morning and in the evening, second day same but in the evening accompanied this with 200mg of Niacin (where I usually take 300mg) for the evenings events. That night I O'ed twice within about 3 hours with not much noticable cognitive or fatigue affects that evening or the next day. I would say the niacin effectiveness was increased to about 90%+ But I can't be sure if the additional supplementation is helping the Niacin or if the supplements are working on their own, because I have not been game enough to try O'ing without the Niacin.
This was almost two weeks ago, and I have since added Magnensium. I have O'ed about 5 Times since then on the same supplementation schedule (not twice in one night though), again with 90%+ effectiveness. I do have to say though , sometimes I feel in the afternoon the POIS coming back a little stronger, I take another B and another Ginko and a Magnesium and within 30 minutes its all good..
I've ordered some Huperzine A, Krill Oil, Spirulina and Zinc to add to my regimen which should arrive in a few weeks. I hope to cut down on the amount of B Tablets with these...and maybe try without Niacin.
There is DEFINATELY something to this guys. Thanks to Kurtosis for Pioneering this and for everyone trying this.
Are you taking b co-enzymes? I've found that the best way to take the zinc and magnesium is together with a b complex just a short time before I go asleep. I'd never take 3 b complex / day.
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Why the emphasis on B coenzymes? Do normal B-complexes not work for you?
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I've found they don't work as well. I tried 2 b complexes before the Now one and I found myself becoming nauseous after 3-4 weeks of taking them. So I stopped. In particular I do not believe that high doses of pyroxidine HCl form of B6 is a long term treatment option and I feel the same way about cyanocobalamin (common form of b12 but less absorbable than methylcobalamin) I think that the coenzymated forms are much easier for our bodies to use and less wasteful.
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I was thinking taking three B Vitamins a day was a little excessive. Going to try to keep it down to a Maximum of Two a Day.
Do you take, One, two, One, two etc.. on alternating days? even if you O?
The B Vitamin I'm currently taking is not a Co-Enzyme,
http://www.micro-genics.com.au/product/mega-b-high-potency
Ingredients (per capsule):
Thiamin nitrate (Vit. B1) 100mg
Riboflavin (Vit. B2) 100mg
Nicotinamide (Vit B3) 100mg
Calcium pantothenate (Vit B5)100mg
Pyridoxine hydrochloride (Vit. B6) 100mg
Cyanocobalamin (Vit. B12) 50mcg
Folic acid 100mcg
Biotin 100mcg
Choline Bitartrate 50mg
Inositol 50mg
But I've only got a about a weeks worth of pills left. I've ordered the NOW Foods one that you suggested, so hopefully that will be here before I run out of pills.
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I just went on a run today, and was surprised to feel more energized than I usually do. My fatigue didn't set in as early as it usually does. I've been taking these vitamins for over 5 weeks now. I just had an "O" yesterday accompanied with niacin. I really feel good right now. It's really genuine, I'm not having to consciously force myself to think positively. I typically have to tell myself I'm feeling good lol.
Please tell me exactly what you're taking and the doses,thank u.
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I was thinking taking three B Vitamins a day was a little excessive. Going to try to keep it down to a Maximum of Two a Day.
Do you take, One, two, One, two etc.. on alternating days? even if you O?
The B Vitamin I'm currently taking is not a Co-Enzyme,
http://www.micro-genics.com.au/product/mega-b-high-potency
Ingredients (per capsule):
Thiamin nitrate (Vit. B1) 100mg
Riboflavin (Vit. B2) 100mg
Nicotinamide (Vit B3) 100mg
Calcium pantothenate (Vit B5)100mg
Pyridoxine hydrochloride (Vit. B6) 100mg
Cyanocobalamin (Vit. B12) 50mcg
Folic acid 100mcg
Biotin 100mcg
Choline Bitartrate 50mg
Inositol 50mg
But I've only got a about a weeks worth of pills left. I've ordered the NOW Foods one that you suggested, so hopefully that will be here before I run out of pills.
Sounds good. I take one every morning and another at night on alternate days. I take the night one with zinc and magnesium. If you're feeling depressed and anxious then some taurine supplementation (say every 2nd day) can also be beneficial. If there was a b6 deficiency then our bodies would make less taurine and this would impair our ability to deal with stress. It should also raise testosterone levels and make exercising easier. I'm taking less huperzine now. 100mcg every 3rd day. I think it's not as important as the other ingredients but is useful in giving your memory a boost.
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Kurtosis,
I'm interested in the acetyl l-carnitine that you're taking and wondering if I should add that to the mix, how are you taking this, and what benefit do you feel this gives?
Taurine sounds interesting as well, and far as I can tell, not too many side effects. How much Taurine do you take?
Cheers,
JT
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Kurtosis,
I'm interested in the acetyl l-carnitine that you're taking and wondering if I should add that to the mix, how are you taking this, and what benefit do you feel this gives?
Taurine sounds interesting as well, and far as I can tell, not too many side effects. How much Taurine do you take?
Cheers,
JT
acetyl l-carnitine of 500mg every 2nd day at the moment. It appears to improve memory. I feel it may be more effective than huperzine long term as it's a naturally occurring protein. Huperzine may not be a long term option for anyone who doesn't suffer from a specific choline-related memory impairment. Perhaps a small amount every few days but 200mcg is too much. Bear in mind that I started taking this to get my memory back on track.
I always found taurine helped me deal with stress, whether in POIS or not. Also about 500mg every 3rd day. I've thought of trying a supplement called "True Focus" which has taurine, gingko and DMAE but I'm concerned about taking any more b6 in pyroxidine HCl form. It is astonishing, however, how taking the right amino acids and b vitamins can improve focus or give energy. This was not widely appreciated up until recently, that amino acids taken by themselves could have very different affects than when taken in combination with other amino acids. So I don't view these substances as having a placebo effect, it's very real.
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Completely agree.
The more I look into what it is we are taking, the more it makes a lot of sense...
There's plenty of references out there for taking B6 with Magenesium to help with Fatigue, Depresession, Anxiety, Social Phobia...etc....All things which many of us DO experiences in POIS/
For example: http://www.organicfoodee.com/vms/magcit-vitaminb6/
Amazing stuff.
Kurtosis, what led you onto this combination of Vitamins? and what is your current hypothesis at the moment about why this is working as well as it does?
JT
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Completely agree.
The more I look into what it is we are taking, the more it makes a lot of sense...
There's plenty of references out there for taking B6 with Magenesium to help with Fatigue, Depresession, Anxiety, Social Phobia...etc....All things which many of us DO experiences in POIS/
For example: http://www.organicfoodee.com/vms/magcit-vitaminb6/
Amazing stuff.
Kurtosis, what led you onto this combination of Vitamins? and what is your current hypothesis at the moment about why this is working as well as it does?
JT
I discussed it over on the Naked Scientists Forum. I think that POIS is leading to fluctuating catecholamine levels (including dopamine) which is affecting our ability to plan and focus. My hypothesis is autoimmune but problems with metabolism or synthesis of b vitamins can lead to depression, memory loss, hormonal imbalances etc. These can have negative feedback loops. For example, too little b6 (and zinc+magnesium) would reduce testosterone production which would upset the testosterone / oestrogen ratio. This in turn would prevent the body from generating it's own niacin (b3) from the protein tryptophan. You get the idea, it's all related.
Then I looked at my own symptoms. Memory loss, inability to recollect dreams and stomach problems all started with POIS and have worsened as other POIS symptoms worsened. For example, the pain in my head I got when I had an O got worse over time. Inability to remember dreams has been linked to b6 deficiency so that was another hint.
But basically, the cocktail is designed to stimulate production of neurotransmitters, try to increase the secretion of BDNF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-derived_neurotrophic_factor and reduce inflammation. Reducing inflammation is one of the most important aspects of POIS treatment as it does appear there is some form of allergy going on here & I've noticed that itches, rashes and sinusitis appear to be linked to the severity of my POIS.
What is causing POIS, I don't know. I've had numerous hypothesis but I can't say whether they apply to everyone here. However, the most likely appears to be an autoimmune disease as POIS has afflicted some sufferers after puberty where the onset was sudden, it appears to be accompanied by other signs of immunological disorder such as allergies or flu-like symptoms & the few of us who have had MRI's have not reported any neurodegeneration so it's not something like alzheimers or parkinsons.
Whether there's a "mechanical" cause to this (the "sperm in the bladder" hypothesis) I don't know. There are at least 2 other things that I think could cause POIS-like symptoms. The first is a tumour of the pituitary gland which could be benign but still upset the body's hormonal balance. I've read that these can sometimes cause vision problems and increase decrease libido also. It's about the only thing I haven't been tested for.
The 2nd is a deficiency in prostaglandin PGE1. This could be the result of a genetic mutation in the 2 genes which are required to synthesise prostaglandins from essential fatty acids (e.g. omega 3 and 6). This is also a promising hypothesis as D6D mutations have been linked to schizophrenia, "brain fog" problems and allergic reactions. If this was the problem then the treatment would involve Gamma linoleic acid (GLA) and omega 3 fatty acids in fish oils. Incidentally, I've seen that stomach problems caused by D6D have been experimentally treated with Ginkgo. Spirulina is high in GLA. I'm not sure it's the best source as it contains many other ingredients that have a stimulating effect. In combination with taurine, spirulina should give you more energy and focus but I can't take more than 3 capsules without feeling a bit manic. It may be too stimulating :)
If you wish to try other alternatives to supplement GLA then borage oil is also a possibility.
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i have done the test and not pituitary tumor.
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i have done the test and not pituitary tumor.
That's good. Not something you'd want to have.
One other possibility is some variation of Hartnup disorder where the body cannot absorb amino acids efficiently and they're excreted in the urine.
I had high levels of protein in my urine during one test but that doctor didn't seem to think much of it. Just asked me was I eating a lot of meat and going to the gym :)
Inability to absorb tryptophan, for example, leads to a deficiency in niacinamide (the former is converted into the latter) and a range of pellagra like symptoms including difficulty concentrating, high anxiety, possible development of schizophrenia. We know niacin can help treat this so it's plausible that some aspect of POIS symptoms is due to a niacin deficiency.
Deficiencies in other amino acids lead to low levels of catecholamines etc. Some of us seem to have constant POIS whereas others feel they recover. It's unclear whether such an illness could be episodic or exacerbated by O's. Patients improve when they take a high protein diet (through supplements or just eating lots of meat, eggs, etc.) with niacin supplementation.
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It's finally seems to work.
I felt so bad yesterday after 12 days of hard POIS that I took 2 pills of some antistaminic (we call it kestin ; its made with Ebastine), 1,5g of niaciniamide(never have effect with 500mg) and had an O (telling me myself : felling that bad anyway, better to know why)
And Miraculously, I fell about 70% of my cognitive capacity(I was about 20% yesterday) and 90% physicals. I should be about 20% -50% so about -30% ; I pretty sure it's niaciniamide at that dosage.
I receive today my B-vitamine complex(no co-enzimated) and took one pills ; Should be placebo, but i feel energized. I use to take some vitamines but the dosage is very low.I'll start vitamine+Gingko+Omega3/6/9 +niacin before O+continue running every 2 days+ better diet . What do you think about relora ?
If it works, it will just my life.
Thank you guys for sharing with us those precious informations
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Kurtosis,
Thanks for such a detailed reply.
As an update, I had an O the other night took the usual, and 200mg of Niacin. This time I didin't feel the flush. Next day, I was back to about 70-80%% of POIS reduction...So prima facie it seems that the Vitamin Regimen is assisting the Niacin effect. Time will tell.
Still feeling a bit low in energy/lazy from that episode and a bit of brain fog, so I'm going to look into the Taurine and the ACL.
Cheers,
JT
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LAPOISSE, Jivetalk, great, great, great!
I like the sound of what happened to you JT. Sounds like a good combo.
Perhaps the b complex will make the rules a little less stringent with the niacin.
I started with complex, but I´m in themiddle of changing BP meds, so had to let off for a little while.
Once I stabalize I'll go back to the treatment.
Maybe a week more.
The B comlex seems to clear my urine up. Clearer, lighter.
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Kurtosis,
Thanks for such a detailed reply.
As an update, I had an O the other night took the usual, and 200mg of Niacin. This time I didin't feel the flush. Next day, I was back to about 70-80%% of POIS reduction...So prima facie it seems that the Vitamin Regimen is assisting the Niacin effect. Time will tell.
Still feeling a bit low in energy/lazy from that episode and a bit of brain fog, so I'm going to look into the Taurine and the ACL.
Cheers,
JT
I've read that taurine can be useful for those who are hyper sensitive to mono sodium glutamate in foods. The idea is that MSG affects the body's ability to produce taurine which may lead to digestive, heart, nervous and vision problems. It's interesting just how many things can create a smorgasbord of similar problems in people. Indeed, the idea of psychosomatic illnesses being diagnosed with such frequency is ridiculous when you consider how alien our diet and environment is to what it was say a hundred years ago and how much stress that's placing on our bodies. This is what convinces me that other people have variations of POIS, if we could only find the common cause then it might clear up a range of fatigue & cognitive related illnesses.
Also, one of the reasons that I like the Now b complex is that it has CoQ10 which theoretically would help neurones obtain energy in times when they're being intensely stimulated. I take CoQ10 with b6 for this reason.
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I've read that taurine can be useful for those who are hyper sensitive to mono sodium glutamate in foods. The idea is that MSG affects the body's ability to produce taurine which may lead to digestive, heart, nervous and vision problems. It's interesting just how many things can create a smorgasbord of similar problems in people.
Hello kurtosis, I think there are some people(including me) who react very strongly to MSG while in POIS. Taking MSG while in POIS makes me to experience an horrible increase in POIS symptoms. I recall to experience this worsening some times just after eating Chinese food or some hot sausages. The good thing is that, I don't experience any symptoms if I don't have POIS.
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I've read that taurine can be useful for those who are hyper sensitive to mono sodium glutamate in foods. The idea is that MSG affects the body's ability to produce taurine which may lead to digestive, heart, nervous and vision problems. It's interesting just how many things can create a smorgasbord of similar problems in people.
Hello kurtosis, I think there are some people(including me) who react very strongly to MSG while in POIS. Taking MSG while in POIS makes me to experience an horrible increase in POIS symptoms. I recall to experience this worsening some times just after eating Chinese food or some hot sausages. The good thing is that, I don't experience any symptoms if I don't have POIS.
Me too!
And there's so much MSG in anything packaged... even if it is in a disguised form!!
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I have tried Hidroxil. took it for 10 days and the had an O but same symptoms as ever
in the same time I had been taking Gingko biloba, vitamin C, and Omega3 fish oil
i didn't even feel more energized during these 10 days.
maybe the conzimated ones are actually more effective, but I don't feel for a while I will try anything more
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(http://www.poiscenter.com/newsletters/NL-6.jpg)
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/d7d7d72f.jpg) (http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/0d0e0e35.jpg) (http://www.rarediseases.org/about/support/research-donations/fg_base_view_p3)
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Me too!
And there's so much MSG in anything packaged... even if it is in a disguised form!!
Exactly, some of them are in disguised form that makes it harder for us to avoid the 'trap'.
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I have tried Hidroxil. took it for 10 days and the had an O but same symptoms as ever
in the same time I had been taking Gingko biloba, vitamin C, and Omega3 fish oil
i didn't even feel more energized during these 10 days.
maybe the conzimated ones are actually more effective, but I don't feel for a while I will try anything more
There's no niacin in hidroxil it appears. Having said that I'm very surprised that all that didn't make you feel energised. It does for me so I don't know what to say.
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Kurtosis, lmk if u disagree w this, but for ppl trying your method, perhaps it's best if we only take the B Vitamins, Zinc + Magnesium - as these are the supplements that treat the pois. The huperzine and ginkgo biloba are used to enhance/restore cognitive function only AFTER the pois is at bay. People seem to be getting confused that the huperzine and ginkgo are pois treatments in and of themselves.
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I have tried Hidroxil. took it for 10 days and the had an O but same symptoms as ever
in the same time I had been taking Gingko biloba, vitamin C, and Omega3 fish oil
i didn't even feel more energized during these 10 days.
maybe the conzimated ones are actually more effective, but I don't feel for a while I will try anything more
There's no niacin in hidroxil it appears. Having said that I'm very surprised that all that didn't make you feel energised. It does for me so I don't know what to say.
man, i can only be grateful to you for sharing your recepy with us. if it doesn't work for me it's not your fault.
we are all different. i hope to find something that works for me soon
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Kurtosis, lmk if u disagree w this, but for ppl trying your method, perhaps it's best if we only take the B Vitamins, Zinc + Magnesium - as these are the supplements that treat the pois. The huperzine and ginkgo biloba are used to enhance/restore cognitive function only AFTER the pois is at bay. People seem to be getting confused that the huperzine and ginkgo are pois treatments in and of themselves.
It's getting confusing alright, particularly with discussions on 2 websites.
The huperzine is optional. I've cut down dramatically. I've found that acetyl l-carnitine gives me the same memory boost while improving my energy levels and mood. It might have been useful to take some huperzine initially but it's not actually treating POIS. Taking it by itself does not improve my POIS symptoms dramatically.
If I just wanted to treat POIS and not try to repair, I'd take the b-complex (which has other ingredients too) and zinc at night. If your POIS symptoms are primarily cognitive (or stomach) then try ginkgo also. Ginkgo has anti-inflammatory and neuro-protective effects. It also dilates blood vessels and can help treating hypertensive anxiety.
So the minimum is b coenzymes (with niacin, ALA & CoQ10 in the "famous" Now complex I'm using), zinc & ginkgo. If you try these and it doesn't work then it's not working for you unless you have a diet which is conspicuously low in protein.
My other experience is that I seem to need a lot of protein. As I've said before, I'm lactose intolerant so I try to get my protein from meat and spirulina. I've also noticed that taurine and acetyl l-carnitine (which it's difficult to get in large quantities) give me focus and energy.
As I've said lots of times and discussed on the NSF and here, there are lots of possible hypothesis as to why this may work for me but my gut feeling is that POIS is a problem in the gut that's affecting the synthesis of everything from neurotransmitters to hormones (they're often inter-related) and it just gets worse when we O because the levels of some neurotransmitters change too quickly and we can't seem to balance. This balancing is called homeostasis and well known homeostatic illnesses include diabetes.
If this was the cause there may be multiple medical conditions that could lead to POIS like symptoms and we may not even all be suffering from the same thing but could have the same symptoms.
The POIS diet and supplementation I'm following is similar to what I've read other people following for testosterone / oestrogen imbalances and hartnup disease. http://rarediseases.about.com/od/rarediseasesh/a/hartnup.htm
This could be pure coincidence but I've read stories of people giving up vegetarianism and veganism because of fatigue, cognitive issues and other symptoms which clearly don't affect all vegetarians but do impact on some.
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Quoted:
"It's getting confusing alright, particularly with discussions on 2 websites. "
That's the reason for concentrating it into only ONE.
THIS one. it's OURs. Our software, OUR owners who dedicate ONLY to POIS and aren't interested in ANY other monetary / commercial
priorities.
THIS ONE, that let's us publicize our cause.
Why divide the energy? Why complicate the discussions, why repeat, and why resist?
The movement started there, but it has outgrown the medium.
NSF may be a great science forum, but we can do everything that can be done over there (for POIS) and more. LOTs more.
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Quoted:
"It's getting confusing alright, particularly with discussions on 2 websites. "
That's the reason for concentrating it into only ONE.
THIS one. it's OURs. Our software, OUR owners who dedicate ONLY to POIS and aren't interested in ANY other monetary / commercial
priorities.
THIS ONE, that let's us publicize our cause.
Why divide the energy? Why complicate the discussions, why repeat, and why resist?
The movement started there, but it has outgrown the medium.
NSF may be a great science forum, but we can do everything that can be done over there (for POIS) and more. LOTs more.
I know what you mean Dave but people are still discovering the Naked Science Forum & need to be gently encouraged to move over to poiscenter.
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That's fine Kurtosis. You are doing a wonderful job.
I think that just you alone have helped to advance our cause by months and months, if not years.
And I know we don't do it for praise or gain...
but because this thing is awful and has to be beat. And not tomorrow but yesterday!
I get frustrated sometimes! :P :-[
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That's fine Kurtosis. You are doing a wonderful job.
I think that just you alone have helped to advance our cause by months and months, if not years.
And I know we don't do it for praise or gain...
but because this thing is awful and has to be beat. And not tomorrow but yesterday!
I get frustrated sometimes! :P :-[
Me too. Thanks for the praise anyway :)
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Kurtosis, do you think I can take the C-Enzyme B-Complex http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements/Products-by-Category/Vitamins/Vitamin-B/M046554.htm (http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements/Products-by-Category/Vitamins/Vitamin-B/M046554.htm)
together with the daily multivitamin I'm taking? It's GNC Mega Men Sport http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4033437&cp=3593185.12961109 (http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4033437&cp=3593185.12961109)
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I tried for the first time real niacin yesterday before O and so far, it don't work...I'm about 100% POIS.
I took this niacin :
http://www.leaderpharma.co.uk/niacine-500-mg.html
I took about 300mg had a flush and waited for 1 hour
I've also been taking this B complex for 5 days
http://www.leaderpharma.com/vitamine-b-complex-50mg.html
I had a good result one time with niaciniamide (1,5g)
Is there something wrong in the product i choosed ?
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I tried for the first time real niacin yesterday before O and so far, it don't work...I'm about 100% POIS.
I took this niacin :
http://www.leaderpharma.co.uk/niacine-500-mg.html
I took about 300mg had a flush and waited for 1 hour
I've also been taking this B complex for 5 days
http://www.leaderpharma.com/vitamine-b-complex-50mg.html
I had a good result one time with niaciniamide (1,5g)
Is there something wrong in the product i choosed ?
The product looks fine. Pure Niacin.
I bought a 500mg capsule from amazon (different brand), but it didn't work for me. Don't know why, but the Nature's Way 100mg capsule works very well.
Very important not to eat before, at least 3 hrs hopefully more. But your procedure sounds like it was properly executed.
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I ate pizza 1 hour before...could be linked ?
I'll try to get nature's way
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Normally eating a pizza 1 hr before wouldn´t let you have a flush. But the flush isn't ALWAYS the indicator. With heavy food in the system, the liver doesn't process the niacin as well, and may take longer.
I have had positive results with heavy food maybe 3 hours before and 400mg niacin, but the effect is less.
Give it a try in the morning after 8 or more hours of fasting and be careful, only take 100mg to start and another 50mg if you don't get a flush.
I don't like to do it in the morning, because even with niacin, I get light POIS later in the day, But NONE more from there on in.
It's better in the evening because you can sleep of the first little bit (if any). But it's real difficult to fast for 8 hours before, if you take it in the evening.
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I tried for the first time real niacin yesterday before O and so far, it don't work...I'm about 100% POIS.
I took this niacin :
http://www.leaderpharma.co.uk/niacine-500-mg.html
I took about 300mg had a flush and waited for 1 hour
I've also been taking this B complex for 5 days
http://www.leaderpharma.com/vitamine-b-complex-50mg.html
I had a good result one time with niaciniamide (1,5g)
Is there something wrong in the product i choosed ?
The product looks fine. Pure Niacin.
I bought a 500mg capsule from amazon (different brand), but it didn't work for me. Don't know why, but the Nature's Way 100mg capsule works very well.
Very important not to eat before, at least 3 hrs hopefully more. But your procedure sounds like it was properly executed.
I've only ever seen 500mg as niacinamide or sloniacin which is a special formulation where the niacin is encased in a polymer gel which is gradually digested. The end result is that it doesn't trigger the same flush that a 100mg of straightforward niacin would. I'm not sure it would be a good idea to take 500mg of pure niacin as the instantaneous release and subsequent flush could be very painful but it's possible that a smaller amount (100 mg) of pure niacin which produces the flush (via prostaglandin release) is actually more beneficial than a larger amount of niacin with less flush.
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Kurtosis, do you think I can take the C-Enzyme B-Complex http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements/Products-by-Category/Vitamins/Vitamin-B/M046554.htm (http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements/Products-by-Category/Vitamins/Vitamin-B/M046554.htm)
together with the daily multivitamin I'm taking? It's GNC Mega Men Sport http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4033437&cp=3593185.12961109 (http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4033437&cp=3593185.12961109)
I went ahead and took them today. Let's see...
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I tried for the first time real niacin yesterday before O and so far, it don't work...I'm about 100% POIS.
I took this niacin :
http://www.leaderpharma.co.uk/niacine-500-mg.html
I took about 300mg had a flush and waited for 1 hour
I've also been taking this B complex for 5 days
http://www.leaderpharma.com/vitamine-b-complex-50mg.html
I had a good result one time with niaciniamide (1,5g)
Is there something wrong in the product i choosed ?
The product looks fine. Pure Niacin.
I bought a 500mg capsule from amazon (different brand), but it didn't work for me. Don't know why, but the Nature's Way 100mg capsule works very well.
Very important not to eat before, at least 3 hrs hopefully more. But your procedure sounds like it was properly executed.
I've only ever seen 500mg as niacinamide or sloniacin which is a special formulation where the niacin is encased in a polymer gel which is gradually digested. The end result is that it doesn't trigger the same flush that a 100mg of straightforward niacin would. I'm not sure it would be a good idea to take 500mg of pure niacin as the instantaneous release and subsequent flush could be very painful but it's possible that a smaller amount (100 mg) of pure niacin which produces the flush (via prostaglandin release) is actually more beneficial than a larger amount of niacin with less flush.
When I took my capsule of 500mg, even though it said pure niacin, it felt "buffered". Not at all the same effect and a slower release of the niacin. But there was NO indication on the bottle that it was slow release.
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by the way, I openend the capsule and put 2/3 in a glass of water...I though 500mg would be too much for the first time. I felt tingles and intense warm after 15min.
Don't know if i did right
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Kurtosis, do you think I can take the C-Enzyme B-Complex http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements/Products-by-Category/Vitamins/Vitamin-B/M046554.htm (http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements/Products-by-Category/Vitamins/Vitamin-B/M046554.htm)
together with the daily multivitamin I'm taking? It's GNC Mega Men Sport http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4033437&cp=3593185.12961109 (http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4033437&cp=3593185.12961109)
I went ahead and took them today. Let's see...
Sorry, thought I'd responded. That seems like a lot to take. Having said that I do take the b complex at night every 2nd day with some zinc and magnesium. Perhaps you could do the same.
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by the way, I openend the capsule and put 2/3 in a glass of water...I though 500mg would be too much for the first time. I felt tingles and intense warm after 15min.
Don't know if i did right
Sounds right. Also 15 min is about the right timing for the flush to start. If it were buffered or no-flush it would take a lot longer and probably 300 mg wouldn't be enough (or produce a flush)
Intense warm, sort of like sunburn on the skin? And you turned all red!?
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I tried for the first time real niacin yesterday before O and so far, it don't work...I'm about 100% POIS.
I took this niacin :
http://www.leaderpharma.co.uk/niacine-500-mg.html
I took about 300mg had a flush and waited for 1 hour
I've also been taking this B complex for 5 days
http://www.leaderpharma.com/vitamine-b-complex-50mg.html
I had a good result one time with niaciniamide (1,5g)
Is there something wrong in the product i choosed ?
The product looks fine. Pure Niacin.
I bought a 500mg capsule from amazon (different brand), but it didn't work for me. Don't know why, but the Nature's Way 100mg capsule works very well.
Very important not to eat before, at least 3 hrs hopefully more. But your procedure sounds like it was properly executed.
I've only ever seen 500mg as niacinamide or sloniacin which is a special formulation where the niacin is encased in a polymer gel which is gradually digested. The end result is that it doesn't trigger the same flush that a 100mg of straightforward niacin would. I'm not sure it would be a good idea to take 500mg of pure niacin as the instantaneous release and subsequent flush could be very painful but it's possible that a smaller amount (100 mg) of pure niacin which produces the flush (via prostaglandin release) is actually more beneficial than a larger amount of niacin with less flush.
When I took my capsule of 500mg, even though it said pure niacin, it felt "buffered". Not at all the same effect and a slower release of the niacin. But there was NO indication on the bottle that it was slow release.
Yeah, I'd worry that someone would take more of the buffered niacin to get the flush. This is hard on the liver so if it's a flush you want then 100mg of "pure" niacin might be the best option.
The co-enzyme is NAD trihydrate. It doesn't produce the flush but it seems to work for me. However, the body also tries to make its own b3. There's a few reasons why this mechanism could be compromised but the raw ingredients are an amino acid called tryptophan and vitamin b6.
Eggs, dairy and spirulina are very good sources of these amino acids.
Have a look at the quote from http://www.whatislife.com/reader2/Metabolism/pathway/aminoacid.html
"Aromatic amino acids include phenylalanine, tyrosine and tryptophan. Phe and Tyr are closely related. They contain a benzene ring which is hydroxylated in tyrosine. Tyrosine is synthesized directly from the essential amino acid phenylalanine. Tryptophan contains a conjugated indole ring and its metabolism is linked to that of vitamin B (niacin C00253). These metabolic relations give rise to an intricate nutritional dependence. For example, a high level of dietary tyrosine relieves the need for essential phenylalanine. Also, metabolic disorders like the impairment of synthesizing tyrosine from phenylalanine makes the former an essential amino acid. This lack of amino acid biosynthetic pathways in humans is the cause of many diseases associated to malnutrition. Pellagra is a vitamin deficiency syndrome caused by an inadequate supply of niacin (vitamin B) because of problems in the pathway leading from tryptophan to niacin synthesis. Vitamin C (C00072), which is a necessary coenzyme in tyrosine metabolism, or vitamin B6 (C00250), which is required for tryptophan metabolism, cause deficiencies in the metabolism of aromatic amino acids."
So vitamin C + spirulina give the raw ingredients for synthesising catecholamines (including dopamine) while b6+spirulina is good for synthesis of niacin. Ironically, the body needs niacin to transport amino acids including tryptophan which it uses to synthesis niacin so you need some supplementary niacin to help the process out. Otherwise the tryptophan just gets "stuck". Most is urinated and the rest sits in the gut causing problems.
But it's a balance. Enough tryptophan sees niacin created in sufficient amounts to enable rest of the tryptophan to be converted into serotonin so you're happy. Too much serotonin will make you anxious and reduce testosterone levels.
This in turn can be balanced by taurine which increases testosterone levels. Pretty soon your diet can start to resemble the story of the old lady and the fly :)
http://www.rhymes.org.uk/there_was_an_old_lady.htm
This is a common problem with supplements. You notice an improvement and increase the dosage to the point where the effect is now detrimental. When you notice an improvement you should hold the dosage steady, calm down and try to observe what's happening over a few days. Taking more can actually take you from a good result to a bad one and cause you to write off what may be a beneficial treatment.
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$9,270.00 $9,350.00 $10,272.00 $11,002.00 raised!
THANK YOU FOR THE $200 GIFT FROM OUR ***REPEAT*** DONOR!!!! :) :)
towards our $33,500 goal.
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From Kurtosis:
"Yeah, I'd worry that someone would take more of the buffered niacin to get the flush. This is hard on the liver so if it's a flush you want then 100mg of "pure" niacin might be the best option. "
Yes, it felt hard on the liver and didn't help the POIS at all! One of my worst POIS sessions in a long time.
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I took coenzyme-B only, and unfortunately I felt drowsy whole day.
(the same thing happened when I took normal B-complex.)
Maybe there's some ingredients that my body can't tolerant with.
I have to stop taking it.
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I took coenzyme-B only, and unfortunately I felt drowsy whole day.
(the same thing happened when I took normal B-complex.)
Maybe there's some ingredients that my body can't tolerant with.
I have to stop taking it.
That's unfortunate. Did you take 2 tablets or one?
I really don't experience any upset at all with this supplement so it's difficult to understand what the problem is but I know biotin and iron (folate) can cause nausea in some people.
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Maybe the HuperzineA and ginko liven things up a bit!
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I took coenzyme-B only, and unfortunately I felt drowsy whole day.
(the same thing happened when I took normal B-complex.)
Maybe there's some ingredients that my body can't tolerant with.
I have to stop taking it.
That's unfortunate. Did you take 2 tablets or one?
I really don't experience any upset at all with this supplement so it's difficult to understand what the problem is but I know biotin and iron (folate) can cause nausea in some people.
I have the same symptoms with normal B-complex... I will try the conenzyme one...
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Maybe the HuperzineA and ginko liven things up a bit!
I tried taking the b complex without ginkgo and it was fine. I'm not taking much huperzine at the moment so it's not that :)
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That's unfortunate. Did you take 2 tablets or one?
I really don't experience any upset at all with this supplement so it's difficult to understand what the problem is but I know biotin and iron (folate) can cause nausea in some people.
I took one capsule only. Besides, I experimented with ginkgo biloba 60mg. After taking, I felt a cool sensation on the back of my head. Then, I went to sleep. Other than that, there's nothing too obvious to be observed. Maybe I need to give it some time.
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That's unfortunate. Did you take 2 tablets or one?
I really don't experience any upset at all with this supplement so it's difficult to understand what the problem is but I know biotin and iron (folate) can cause nausea in some people.
I took one capsule only. Besides, I experimented with ginkgo biloba 60mg. After taking, I felt a cool sensation on the back of my head. Then, I went to sleep. Other than that, there's nothing too obvious to be observed. Maybe I need to give it some time.
Gingko manages to make me feel both more relaxed and better able to remember things. It took about 1 week before I started to notice major improvements to my mood and POIS symptoms. For whatever reason, this treatment has improved my sinus allergies. Taking some l-taurine every 2nd day also seems to help. I can only conclude that part of POIS is a stress reaction, regardless of whether it's caused by allergies or not, the stress is damaging itself.
I also felt sleepy a few times but I just let myself fall asleep as I felt much better when I woke up.
If you can stick with it for a week or 2, that might be useful. Don't take more than 1 coenzyme b a day if it's making you feel nauseous.
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Gingko manages to make me feel both more relaxed and better able to remember things. It took about 1 week before I started to notice major improvements to my mood and POIS symptoms. For whatever reason, this treatment has improved my sinus allergies. Taking some l-taurine every 2nd day also seems to help. I can only conclude that part of POIS is a stress reaction, regardless of whether it's caused by allergies or not, the stress is damaging itself.
I also felt sleepy a few times but I just let myself fall asleep as I felt much better when I woke up.
If you can stick with it for a week or 2, that might be useful. Don't take more than 1 coenzyme b a day if it's making you feel nauseous.
I took the second capsule of ginkgo biloba 60mg this evening. The same sensation occurred in my head. This time I felt it to a wider extent of my brain. It's like constant breeze to my brain, and it's pleasant. I believe it is a good sign. I'll continue taking it on a regular basis, and see what will happen. Considering the sickening effect b-complex has on me, I think it's more to allergy than testosterone issue in my case.
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Gingko manages to make me feel both more relaxed and better able to remember things. It took about 1 week before I started to notice major improvements to my mood and POIS symptoms. For whatever reason, this treatment has improved my sinus allergies. Taking some l-taurine every 2nd day also seems to help. I can only conclude that part of POIS is a stress reaction, regardless of whether it's caused by allergies or not, the stress is damaging itself.
I also felt sleepy a few times but I just let myself fall asleep as I felt much better when I woke up.
If you can stick with it for a week or 2, that might be useful. Don't take more than 1 coenzyme b a day if it's making you feel nauseous.
I took the second capsule of ginkgo biloba 60mg this evening. The same sensation occurred in my head. This time I felt it to a wider extent of my brain. It's like constant breeze to my brain, and it's pleasant. I believe it is a good sign. I'll continue taking it on a regular basis, and see what will happen. Considering the sickening effect b-complex has on me, I think it's more to allergy than testosterone issue in my case.
That's good. I talked to an allergist yesterday about ginkgo and they told me that the COX-2 inhibition effect was plausible based on the research they'd read. They also felt that I might have symptoms of hypertension caused by a combination of stress and allergies over a number of years. Either way, they felt that vasodilators and cox-2 inhibitors may be very useful in treating these symptoms. Also by Ig levels have decreased, meaning that I'm actually displaying less signs of allergic reaction. It's very unlikely this is a placebo effect and does explain why my mood and concentration are improving all the time.
Ginkgo is a truly remarkable substance for dealing with allergies it seems. It's not just the quercetin and the bilobalides. There's ginketin also
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16327145
They recommended I try anti-histamines on days where I'm experiencing allergic reactions but after many years i seem to be getting better and have also met a doctor who's open minded and interested in reading about current research.
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Hi guys, I'm back from my trip. here's my update:
I was taking Kurtosis's vitamins for about 8 days. I felt better every day up until day 6, when i started to feel worse again. By day 8 I felt extreme disappointment and frustration. I was at point 0, and worst yet, I had been taking 5 pills or so concurrently, so I couldn't even tell my doctor with certainty which one of them had made me feel better. So I started to take 1 vitamin per day. Day 9 only Zinc, Day 10 only Magnesium, Day 11 only B Vitamin, Day 12 only Huperzine, Day 13 only Ginkgo...... but none on its own made me feel better.
Then I read some of Kurtosis's posts about B-Vitamins and Zinc being the main vitamins. For the last 19 days (days 13-32) I've only been taking B-Vitamins and Zinc. On day 3 or so of this new routine I felt slightly better but that was the only day of feeling better and there hasn't been another really good day since then.
Here's my theory, and it's in-line with Kurtosis's views: My problem is my catecholamine levels. The B-Vitamins on the first few days of taking them increased my Catecholamine levels making me feel better. Within a few days though, my body adjusted to the B Vitamins and put me back into my own crappy equilibrium state. If I continue to take the B Vitamins for long enough, my catecholine levels will keep rising and my body will adjust and recognize the new, higher levels, making me feel much much better. So basically I need to give it another couple weeks. I think this analysis also explains why wellbutrin works so well for me on days 1 and 2, and then does nothing for at least 2 weeks after that. Kurtosis, I'd be interested in your take on this.
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Hi guys, I'm back from my trip. here's my update:
I was taking Kurtosis's vitamins for about 8 days. I felt better every day up until day 6, when i started to feel worse again. By day 8 I felt extreme disappointment and frustration. I was at point 0, and worst yet, I had been taking 5 pills or so concurrently, so I couldn't even tell my doctor with certainty which one of them had made me feel better. So I started to take 1 vitamin per day. Day 9 only Zinc, Day 10 only Magnesium, Day 11 only B Vitamin, Day 12 only Huperzine, Day 13 only Ginkgo...... but none on its own made me feel better.
Then I read some of Kurtosis's posts about B-Vitamins and Zinc being the main vitamins. For the last 19 days (days 13-32) I've only been taking B-Vitamins and Zinc. On day 3 or so of this new routine I felt slightly better but that was the only day of feeling better and there hasn't been another really good day since then.
Here's my theory, and it's in-line with Kurtosis's views: My problem is my catecholamine levels. The B-Vitamins on the first few days of taking them increased my Catecholamine levels making me feel better. Within a few days though, my body adjusted to the B Vitamins and put me back into my own crappy equilibrium state. If I continue to take the B Vitamins for long enough, my catecholine levels will keep rising and my body will adjust and recognize the new, higher levels, making me feel much much better. So basically I need to give it another couple weeks. I think this analysis also explains why wellbutrin works so well for me on days 1 and 2, and then does nothing for at least 2 weeks after that. Kurtosis, I'd be interested in your take on this.
Hi B_Daniel,
My diet is very protein rich either through supplementation or food. For example I eat an egg, yoghurt and spirulina every day. All these contain tyrosine. I've done this since I decided that the answer was dopamine depletion. Now that doesn't mean that I don't believe other catecholamines may be elevated but I believe POIS sufferers are in a low dopamine state. They may also not be generating enough niacin to balance other reactions in their body. As haidcat has pointed out niacin helps with inhibiting the dopamine to noradrenaline conversion. Niacin is synthesised from tryptophan. Believe it or not but testosterone to oestrogen levels should be in a certain ratio for optimum synthesis of niacin. Everything is related!
So I'm giving my body a lot of raw ingredients to make dopamine. The b vitamins help but I haven't been slow to increase my protein intake, reasoning that my body will make dopamine if only I can give it enough raw ingredients and try to manage stress so it's not all being wasted by being turned in noradrenaline and then adrenaline. But I started on this path months ago.
So I think you need to persevere but to make sure that you have enough raw ingredients to make dopamine by consuming foods with tyrosine and or phenylalanine. See the table at http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000087000000000000000.html
I've also come to understand that acetyl l-carninte and taurine are very good for improving energy and managing stress by reducing cortisol levels and increasing BDNF. I haven't taken huperzine in over a week and haven't noticed much difference. I've come to realise that it does boost memory but ONLY when you're already leaving the POIS state as I was.
I used up my previous tubs of acetyl l-carnitine and l-taurine and have tried carnitine complex which contains both. It's got some real kick. If that seems too expensive then try adding some taurine. The combination of tyrosine rich foods or supplements and taurine should help increase dopamine while discouraging the stress state that increases adrenaline production.
It's entirely possible that wellbutrin isn't working consistently for you for several reasons. Here are some 1) you might have a protein metabolism problem which means you need more of it in easily digestible form (think whey peptides, "amino" supplements or spirulina). You just can't make enough dopamine. 2) Something happens after an O which blocks dopamine production for too long (excess prolactin?) or 3) for physiological and psychological reasons you're converting excess dopamine in noradrenaline or adrenaline which is making you feel sick.
The other thing is, don't be afraid to start off with a relatively high dose of ginkgo. I'm on 120mg now but I took 240mg / day for the first 3-4 weeks. This is probably not necessary with taurine supplementation.
So try to think of it as a balancing act with your body. Enough supplementation to boost dopamine but also trying to reduce cortisol and adrenaline. Take walks every day and try to get out of the frustrated state. If possible try to get a long weekend or break away where you are away from direct stressors.
If for allergy or cost reasons you can't follow a high protein diet then the easiest thing to do would be to buy some l-tyrosine and l-taurine but for whatever reason this doesn't work as well for me as getting the tyrosine from a complete protein.
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Kurtosis, I completely agree with you on the whole dopamine thing. I think many of us are suffering through chronic low dopamine states, due to the overproduction of nor/adrenaline. The question for each individual I think is: Are many of us low in dopamine, or low in dopamine receptors? because both could cause the problems, but it would seem it would be more low dopamine levels, considering the noradrenaline issue.
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Kurtosis, I completely agree with you on the whole dopamine thing. I think many of us are suffering through chronic low dopamine states, due to the overproduction of nor/adrenaline. The question for each individual I think is: Are many of us low in dopamine, or low in dopamine receptors? because both could cause the problems, but it would seem it would be more low dopamine levels, considering the noradrenaline issue.
Well, the 2 things are related. The brain will up/down regulate dopamine receptors in response to decreased / raised levels of dopamine, respectively. What I mean is that someone with low levels of dopamine but a higher adrenaline to dopamine ratio than a "healthy" person will have an increased number of dopamine receptors. So raising dopamine levels through supplementation needs to be balanced with managing stress and would initially produce good feelings mixed with frustration/anxiety & hyperactivity issues periodically as the brain tries to cope with each dopamine plateau. You'd have to manage stress because as the levels rise you're providing excess dopamine that you want to reduce the number of dopamine receptors (to make you less dopamine sensitive) but you don't want to be converted to noradrenaline or adrenaline as that will just make you feel anxious.
That's why I like taurine. It has a powerful ability to calm anxiety without the negative effects of some of the anxiety medication I've been prescribed over the past few years. I can't really recommend any of that stuff as my experience is that it turned me into a zombie! I know this is part of the desired effect as zombies don't feel stress (just watch any zombie movie and you'll see how blissful zombie-dom is :)) but I found I couldn't work properly in this state.
Look at the other stuff that's working for us like NOx raising through arginine and perhaps ginkgo. Low dopamine may cause hypertension and raising NOx is a known treatment for this. I'm sure there is a physiological root to POIS but it's possible that POIS looks like an anxiety disorder to doctors because its symptoms include anxiety and stress. Without treating the underlying physical symptoms it would just appear to be a persistent anxiety state aka an anxiety disorder.
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Whenever I start with a mega dose b Vitamin like b-50 or now coenyzme bcomplex i get some b vitamins deficiency symptoms like canker sores and i feel tired. I think when i take megadoses my body tries get off rid of them and after a few hours i get some deficiency symptoms because my body cant use such doses of b vitamin. I feel ok when I take no larger doses of b vitamin not more than 10mg each.
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keep us updated Starsky! I'm very interested how this works out for you! The B Vitamins definitely helped me for a bit.
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Read an interesting study by Taiwanese researchers that showed ginkgo lowered prolactin levels after O with a resulting increase in dopamine levels. The test was done on rats and the levels of ginkgo administered were quite high (the equivalent of people taking > 1 gram of ginkgo / day) but the effect was significant. Diminished sexual fatigue in the rats.
KY Yeh et al., "Dopamine, Prolactin and Ginkgo Biloba." Horm Behav. 2011 Jan;53(1):225-31.
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Can anyone taking ginkgo, b's and protein tell me what you're taking and how often?
Just post it to the forum.
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Read an interesting study by Taiwanese researchers that showed ginkgo lowered prolactin levels after O with a resulting increase in dopamine levels. The test was done on rats and the levels of ginkgo administered were quite high (the equivalent of people taking > 1 gram of ginkgo / day) but the effect was significant. Diminished sexual fatigue in the rats.
KY Yeh et al., "Dopamine, Prolactin and Ginkgo Biloba." Horm Behav. 2011 Jan;53(1):225-31.
VERY interesting. I haven't tried ginkgo. I know it's popped up every once in a while on the forum. Have you tried it?
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Read an interesting study by Taiwanese researchers that showed ginkgo lowered prolactin levels after O with a resulting increase in dopamine levels. The test was done on rats and the levels of ginkgo administered were quite high (the equivalent of people taking > 1 gram of ginkgo / day) but the effect was significant. Diminished sexual fatigue in the rats.
KY Yeh et al., "Dopamine, Prolactin and Ginkgo Biloba." Horm Behav. 2011 Jan;53(1):225-31.
VERY interesting. I haven't tried ginkgo. I know it's popped up every once in a while on the forum. Have you tried it?
Yes, sure have. I take 120mg some days and 240 mg on alternate days. Seems to be working well for me so long as I get b vitamins and lots of tyrosine enriched protein sources.
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is coq10 important i bought a co enzyme vit b wit exact same thing as now but no coq10.
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is coq10 important i bought a co enzyme vit b wit exact same thing as now but no coq10.
Nope, it's not critical.
Let me know what else you're taking.
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Hey Kurtosis,
Here's what I'm taking.
Morning:
100mg Now Foods Co-Enzyme B Complex
250mg Magnesium
120mg Ginko
2 Tablets of Now Foods Spirulina
2 Tablets of Now Foods Krill Oil
2 Tablets of Fish Oil
Afternoon:
4 Tablets Fish Oil
60mg Ginko
Evening:
Usually only 4 Tablets of Fish Oil
On Evenings that I plan to O, I will take another Co-Enzyme Tablet along with 300mg of Niacin.
I've given up on the Huperzine and Zinc, as both of those seem to give me back more of my Cognitive POIS Symptoms.
JT
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Hey Kurtosis,
Here's what I'm taking.
Morning:
100mg Now Foods Co-Enzyme B Complex
250mg Magnesium
120mg Ginko
2 Tablets of Now Foods Spirulina
2 Tablets of Now Foods Krill Oil
2 Tablets of Fish Oil
Afternoon:
4 Tablets Fish Oil
60mg Ginko
Evening:
Usually only 4 Tablets of Fish Oil
On Evenings that I plan to O, I will take another Co-Enzyme Tablet along with 300mg of Niacin.
I've given up on the Huperzine and Zinc, as both of those seem to give me back more of my Cognitive POIS Symptoms.
JT
It's odd that huperzine was creating cognitive problems.
My supplementation looks like
Morning:
- Now b complex.
- carnitine complex with both taurine & acetyl l-carnitine. This is great stuff in my experience. The theory is that acetyl l-carnitine increases the sensitivity to NGF in causing dendrite growth in your brain while acetyl l-carnitine arginate hydrochloride is an agonist of NGF receptors. It really does seem to have a stimulating effect on memory and has given me tonnes of energy. Taurine may help balance a Noradrenaline versus dopamine bias.
- 1 krill oil
Lunch:
I have some vitamin C and ginkgo after lunch. No "slump" in the middle of the day.
Evening:
In the evening I take 120mg of ginkgo.
Protein with 2 meals of the day that is rich in tyrosine. I.e. a yoghurt, spirulina or some lactose free whey protein. I bought the now natural stuff as I don't like some of the sweeteners in other proteins.
If I have an O and notice any symptoms I'll take some protein (yoghurt is good, so is whey and spirulina) and a krill oil. I notice some symptoms about 50% of the time. I've had some O's that felt POIS free. Overall, things are still improving on a week by week basis. I feel good.
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"carnitine complex with both taurine & acetyl l-carnitine"
I'm sorry you've probably said it a thousand times, but where do you get this? + name and dose
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"carnitine complex with both taurine & acetyl l-carnitine"
I'm sorry you've probably said it a thousand times, but where do you get this? + name and dose
Solgar Carnitine Complex or any product containing acetyl l-carnitine arginate. All available from a well known Internet seller that rhymes with spamazon :)
Jarrow do a product called ALCAR 500 which doesn't contain taurine. You could buy this and also buy L-taurine which is relatively cheap itself. All such products should contain acetyl l-carnitine and the arginate form. They work well together. ALCAR and the Solgar carntine complex are very expensive as this form of the carnitine amino acid is covered by a production patent. I've also seen these supplements at wildly different prices so shop around.
I take the carnitine complex now and have come to regard it as focus in a pill. It doesn't feel like a stimulant in the way caffeine does. I'm aware of having more energy and thinking more clearly but it's not a rush or a sudden thing. The effects built up with a week of use. It should be taken on an empty stomach.
I really like the ginkgo though. 240mg on "O days" and I'm fine.
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i was also very surprised when i bought high doses of vit b from gnc and the tablet was giving me more problems feeling more tired and stuff .....
so agree from top may be it does not work so i through it away after trying 4 times ......
now i am still looking for some more vit i dont know what to buy ?????????????
should i buy vitamin for men from gnc ????
i dont kniow .......????????
i tried every vitamin ... nothing works .....
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i was also very surprised when i bought high doses of vit b from gnc and the tablet was giving me more problems feeling more tired and stuff .....
so agree from top may be it does not work so i through it away after trying 4 times ......
now i am still looking for some more vit i dont know what to buy ?????????????
should i buy vitamin for men from gnc ????
i dont kniow .......????????
i tried every vitamin ... nothing works .....
If it didn't work for me, I wouldn't be taking them.
Taking a b-vitamin has never made me feel tired or sick.
GNC vitamins for men has a Mega Men Prostate. I've never tried it but the ingredients look useful. However, GNC mega men vitamins have a huge number of ingredients, increasingly the possibility that there's something in it that you're intolerant to.
I'm also taking ginkgo (240mg) and taurine every day. My taurine might be in this carnitine complex but it's the equivalent of about 500mg every morning. I noticed that some of what I experience after an O is pain and taking taurine helps relieve that.
I'm also getting complete protein in the form of yoghurt and lactose free whey. Tyrosine is good for producing dopamine but the calming neurotransmitter GABA requires glutamine and glucose. Taurine can also increase GABA levels. Milk based protein is really good for providing all this and I've just had to find alternatives with little lactose to get the benefits.
Someone can skip the acetyl l-carnitine if they want (it's expensive) but I wouldn't skip b's, ginkgo and taurine.
I wasn't allergic to any of the ingredients I'm taking and I was about a week into taking b's and ginkgo before I noticed major improvements. I'd been taking b's and protein for 2 months before then.
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I wanted to post an update on my progress.
I've been taking Kurtosis' method for roughly 6 weeks. While I was admittedly skeptical at first, the improvement to date has been significant. This definitely works, but it takes time. As my doctor told me at the 5 week point, it takes a long time for the body to refill dopamine/catecholamine levels that are as low as ours. Within 5 weeks of usage, I had merely primed the pumps, and she estimated I might be 25% better.
I'm one of the POISers with constant pois. The only benefit of this is that I can evaluate my pois on a day-to-day basis. It took about 3-4 weeks before I noticed ANY improvement, but I was still concerned that slight improvement was just placebo as it was so minimal. I'm finally confident to say that I feel much better than any 'placebo' could provide. I'm excited for what the next 6 weeks holds.
If you haven't begun taking all the vitamins Kurtosis recommends, now's a good time to start. And they're just vitamins, so if you're on anti-depressants or any other drugs, you can keep that going. Probably ask your doctor just to be safe but my doctor was okay with me taking these vitamins at the same time as my wellbutrin.
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Good to hear Daniel.
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I wanted to post an update on my progress.
I've been taking Kurtosis' method for roughly 6 weeks. While I was admittedly skeptical at first, the improvement to date has been significant. This definitely works, but it takes time. As my doctor told me at the 5 week point, it takes a long time for the body to refill dopamine/catecholamine levels that are as low as ours. Within 5 weeks of usage, I had merely primed the pumps, and she estimated I might be 25% better.
I'm one of the POISers with constant pois. The only benefit of this is that I can evaluate my pois on a day-to-day basis. It took about 3-4 weeks before I noticed ANY improvement, but I was still concerned that slight improvement was just placebo as it was so minimal. I'm finally confident to say that I feel much better than any 'placebo' could provide. I'm excited for what the next 6 weeks holds.
If you haven't begun taking all the vitamins Kurtosis recommends, now's a good time to start. And they're just vitamins, so if you're on anti-depressants or any other drugs, you can keep that going. Probably ask your doctor just to be safe but my doctor was okay with me taking these vitamins at the same time as my wellbutrin.
which one are you taking exactly.
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I wanted to post an update on my progress.
I've been taking Kurtosis' method for roughly 6 weeks. While I was admittedly skeptical at first, the improvement to date has been significant. This definitely works, but it takes time. As my doctor told me at the 5 week point, it takes a long time for the body to refill dopamine/catecholamine levels that are as low as ours. Within 5 weeks of usage, I had merely primed the pumps, and she estimated I might be 25% better.
I'm one of the POISers with constant pois. The only benefit of this is that I can evaluate my pois on a day-to-day basis. It took about 3-4 weeks before I noticed ANY improvement, but I was still concerned that slight improvement was just placebo as it was so minimal. I'm finally confident to say that I feel much better than any 'placebo' could provide. I'm excited for what the next 6 weeks holds.
If you haven't begun taking all the vitamins Kurtosis recommends, now's a good time to start. And they're just vitamins, so if you're on anti-depressants or any other drugs, you can keep that going. Probably ask your doctor just to be safe but my doctor was okay with me taking these vitamins at the same time as my wellbutrin.
which one are you taking exactly.
Good for you CP / CC!
Let's hope that the next 6 wks brings you close to normal!!. Wouldn't THAT be something!
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I take the vitamins every day, and the dopamine deficiency theory makes a lot of sense the more I think about it. Maybe the theory could explain why some of us feel terrible after taking a hot shower or after other activities that usually aren't associated with causing POIS. But I still wonder why desensitization or surgery seems to work for some of us. Maybe dopamine deficiency is an indirect effect from some allergic reaction. I guess that's exactly why research is key to the cure.
Or even possible that both fluctuations in neurotransmitter levels and the allergic reaction is an indirect effect of an autoimmune illness that prevents proper absorption of proteins used to synthesise neurotransmitters and/or a a hormonal synthesis issue that may affect our pituitary glands. There are many possibilities and lots of illnesses that appear similar if the symptoms of brain fog and fatigue are considered. There are recognised illnesses where it's still not determined what causes them so it might take a while to get to the bottom of this even when research starts.
By the way, are you taking the ginkgo? I'm taking 240mg on the day of an O and the following day. 120 is my maintenance dose. My supplement seems to have gotu kola / brahmi (centella asiatica) and ginseng in there also but ginkgo has made the biggest difference.
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Assuming that the low dopamine/high noradrenaline theory is correct. How do you guys think it explains muscle weakness? Does low dopamine cause muscle weakness? Whats the biochemistry behind that mechanism?
The only thing Ive come up with is that in parkinsons, muscle weakness results because dopamine is a crucial neurotransmittor in breaking inhibitory mechanisms on voluntary movement. But if POIS is causing muscle weakness/slowness then that means our dopamine in the motor cortex is lowered, something I would expect only in parkinsons, but who knows...
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For anybody trying to increase dopamine through supplementation I found a great website that lays it out very well. Essentially it says Tyrosine supplementation, plus activated b vitamins, plus certain other vitmains/mineral are key to increase dopamine. The details are here I encourage you guys to read all the parts if you dont already know the info.
This is part 4 of the dudes post, scroll down and ull see a list of the links for the other three parts:
http://adhd-treatment-options.blogspot.com/2010/02/does-tyrosine-for-adhd-actually-work-a.html
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For the people who do not want to read that articles heres the summary list of what to take to increase dopamine levels:
Tyrosine-------> L-dopa:
1. 500-1500 mg of tyrosine supplements per day
2. Iron
3. Magnesium
4. Zinc
5. Vitamin C
L-dopa--------> dopamine
1. Activated B6( Either taked already activated b-complex from NOW foods, or take a good quality normal B-complex and zinc, because zinc is needed to activated B-6)
2. Avoid high levels of tryptophan(obviously tryptophan is necessary for serotonin, so its a key amino acid, but too much of it blocks dopamine production)
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For the people who do not want to read that articles heres the summary list of what to take to increase dopamine levels:
Tyrosine-------> L-dopa:
1. 500-1500 mg of tyrosine supplements per day
2. Iron
3. Magnesium
4. Zinc
5. Vitamin C
L-dopa--------> dopamine
1. Activated B6( Either taked already activated b-complex from NOW foods, or take a good quality normal B-complex and zinc, because zinc is needed to activated B-6)
2. Avoid high levels of tryptophan(obviously tryptophan is necessary for serotonin, so its a key amino acid, but too much of it blocks dopamine production)
Sounds prettty much like what we're doing!
All we need now is to find out WHY our levels are so out of whack!
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For the people who do not want to read that articles heres the summary list of what to take to increase dopamine levels:
Tyrosine-------> L-dopa:
1. 500-1500 mg of tyrosine supplements per day
2. Iron
3. Magnesium
4. Zinc
5. Vitamin C
L-dopa--------> dopamine
1. Activated B6( Either taked already activated b-complex from NOW foods, or take a good quality normal B-complex and zinc, because zinc is needed to activated B-6)
2. Avoid high levels of tryptophan(obviously tryptophan is necessary for serotonin, so its a key amino acid, but too much of it blocks dopamine production)
To make it really simple, if you're taking the now b complex, it has all the b's including active b6 (p5p), iron and vitamin c. I find another 500mg of vit c helps.
But it's really curious how much the ginkgo helps. As my pois has moved from being problematic to effectively small blips I've noticed that my circulation appears to be improving. Some varicose veins are reduced and my hands are warmer in the morning. The gotu kola may be useful in this respect also. I noticed that it was in another supplement that someone reported success with. There's a high dose b + ginkgo + brahmi supplement made by a company called swisse.
I think the researchers who found that rat's sexual stamina was increased by ginkgo were on to something. Based on their analysis of rat hormone and neurotransmitter levels, they suggested that the reason was that the dopamine spike and reduction following an O and the release of prolactin was modified by ginkgo. The minimum dose they showed significant efficacy was 50mg/kg.
So to calculate this into human terms, for me it would be
Kurtosis Equivalent Dose :) : ~90kg * 50mg * (Rat Km = 6) / (Human Km = 36) = 750mg. These body surface area calculations are just rules of thumb.
I don't plan on taking this much but if I look at my consumption in or around an O, I'm taking 480 over 2 days which appears to give significant release. Not so I want to have lots of O's, but so that I can still think and learn effectively right after an O. After the O days, I go back to 120mg.
I might stop all this for a few days and then try St John's Wort. I'm interested to see whether it works for me and what the differences are between that and my current ginkgo treatment. Curiosity & cats etc.
From reading some papers SJW may block norepinephrine synthesis from dopamine. So I'll take some tyrosine rich protein and see whether I feel calmer and what effect an O has.
Trouble is, I feel pretty calm right now :)
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For the people who do not want to read that articles heres the summary list of what to take to increase dopamine levels:
Tyrosine-------> L-dopa:
1. 500-1500 mg of tyrosine supplements per day
2. Iron
3. Magnesium
4. Zinc
5. Vitamin C
L-dopa--------> dopamine
1. Activated B6( Either taked already activated b-complex from NOW foods, or take a good quality normal B-complex and zinc, because zinc is needed to activated B-6)
2. Avoid high levels of tryptophan(obviously tryptophan is necessary for serotonin, so its a key amino acid, but too much of it blocks dopamine production)
Sounds prettty much like what we're doing!
All we need now is to find out WHY our levels are so out of whack!
It's not really a Why but a possibility is that we're suffering from a disorder where we're producing norepinephrine at a faster rate than we can produce dopamine. This is what happens when someone becomes extremely stressed and the resulting imbalance of norephinephrine to dopamine produces cognition problems along with heightened senses and a resulting increased distractibility. There are several disorders where this happens but like POTS, there are multiple problems that can produce the symptoms.
There is a hormonal link here. Progesterone blocks glutamate receptors. There may be a link between an oversensitivity to MSG and an inability to create progesterone efficiently. Also testosterone reduces ACTH release and therefore reduces norepinphrine and adrenaline levels produced as a result of stress.
This may be why testosterone treatment works for Demo. I notice that other posters have talked about acne which could also result from hormonal imbalance.
As I said before, my experience is that supplementary pregnenolone (the micronised lipid matrix variety) reduced my POIS hugely and showed an effect within hours.
Under this hypothesis, different treatments may work if their net result is to 1) reduce cortisol 2) reduce norepinephrine synthesis 3) increase dopamine levels 4) reduce any background allergic reactions that may be triggering a stress response in the body. In short, anything that takes the body out of a stressed state.
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not questioning just curious, how do you know all this medical stuff and your profile says you are engineer.
my only acth test shows slightly high acth but my cortisol was normal so doctor didnt worry.
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not questioning just curious, how do you know all this medical stuff and your profile says you are engineer.
my only acth test shows slightly high acth but my cortisol was normal so doctor didnt worry.
No problem in answering that question.
I studied chemistry as part of my engineering degree in college. Although I've been working on software, maths and stats since grad school. However, I used to teach maths modelling (among other things) and would often base examples on biological models. So when I talk about something like homeostasis it's from an "applied maths" viewpoint. It's something I've always been interested in, perhaps because I've always been trying to figure out what this POIS thing was and why an O seemed to affect me in a different way to other people. I noticed the symptoms becoming worse and it became more urgent to learn more about it.
If you have POIS then it's obvious what the most important research challenge is in your life. Figuring out POIS of course! ;)
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Ive been thinking for a while about the dopamine theory and why it occurs.
It seems the most proposed mechanism of POIS is that dopamine is converting to norepinephrine too quickly.
I had another idea as to what might be going on and a way to test it... What if the problem is not necessarily too little dopamine but too little dopamine receptors? The way this might work is that during orgasm, us POISers might have a massive surge in dopamine, more than the average person, during orgasm, which subsequently leads to an also massive surge in noradrenaline. This constant massive surge in dopamine could easily lead to a tolerance effect commonly seen in drugs, in effect reducing the number of dopamine receptors we have. This would make us feel like crap when not having sex/masturbating, because we dont have the high levels of dopamine throughout our normal day to day lives to compensate for the lowered dopamine receptors.
This is just a theory as to what is going on, and im sure its more likely that we just have naturally high levels of noradrenaline compared to normal people, but low dopamine receptors could be playing a factor too.
And the way to test this would be to obviously somehow increase dopamine receptors, this is done by such things as:
1. fasting 2. exercise 3. abstaining from addictive substances 4. abstaining from porn/sex 5. taking NMDA antagonists such as theanine, DXM( cough syrup, obviously it stands to reason not to abuse this :)
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Ive been thinking for a while about the dopamine theory and why it occurs.
It seems the most proposed mechanism of POIS is that dopamine is converting to norepinephrine too quickly.
I had another idea as to what might be going on and a way to test it... What if the problem is not necessarily too little dopamine but too little dopamine receptors? The way this might work is that during orgasm, us POISers might have a massive surge in dopamine, more than the average person, during orgasm, which subsequently leads to an also massive surge in noradrenaline. This constant massive surge in dopamine could easily lead to a tolerance effect commonly seen in drugs, in effect reducing the number of dopamine receptors we have. This would make us feel like crap when not having sex/masturbating, because we dont have the high levels of dopamine throughout our normal day to day lives to compensate for the lowered dopamine receptors.
This is just a theory as to what is going on, and im sure its more likely that we just have naturally high levels of noradrenaline compared to normal people, but low dopamine receptors could be playing a factor too.
And the way to test this would be to obviously somehow increase dopamine receptors, this is done by such things as:
1. fasting 2. exercise 3. abstaining from addictive substances 4. abstaining from porn/sex 5. taking NMDA antagonists such as theanine, DXM( cough syrup, obviously it stands to reason not to abuse this :)
Dopamine receptors will up and down regulate based on the amount of dopamine in our system. In a low dopamine state, we should have more receptors.
By the way, I noticed that I have some POTS like symptoms including dizziness when I stand up. I've realised these are being reduced by 240mg of ginkgo. I also noticed pregnenolone having a similar effect. However, without any "treatment" I have this dizziness and my hands are always cold.
This idea of a hyperadrenergic disorder is really growing on me :) It explains a lot of the obvious POIS symptoms and also little things like having restless legs, cold extremities and dizziness. Also why doctors automatically assume POIS is an anxiety disorder. Possibly because POIS sufferers present in an anxious and agitated state due to elevated norepinephrine.
The dizziness is something I never paid much attention to. I'm now wondering why but I've had such a range of problems that may be linked.
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this is my problem with dopamine. When i used Aderrall/ritalin they dont do anything for me cognitve wise. But i still feel very hyper and both affect my sleep. doesnt this mean dopamine is at play.
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CertainlyPOIS, I honestly think ur reaction to adderall has alot more to do with high levels of noradrenaline/adrenaline than it does with low dopamine. I get the exact same response to adderall. Actually when I take adderall my heart races so fast and pumps so hard there were times I thought I was going to die, plus I would pee an insane amount, all indication that noradrenaline/adrenaline are being dumped at a massive rate in the body.
This would make sense since Kurtosis and I have landed on the idea that this is a noradrenaline problem going on, it seems us POISers have too high levels of this stuff and orgasms wreak havoc on us because of this.
Another way to put it is this: our bodies can easily get triggered into a fight/flight response, which is why Kurtosis always mentions that alot of doctors treat POIS as an anxiety disorder. IF we want to get all medically technical having an easily triggered fight/flight response would actually be an anxiety problem, its just that for us it seems our anxiety gets triggered mainly just by orgasms, and is not our baseline personality.
Another interesting thing: Hyperadrenergic POTS is dealt with usually with two medications: 1. Clonidine(prevents the release of norepinephrine) and Mestinon(the prescription version of Huperzine A, which allows acetylcholine to stay around longer, and compete with the fight/flight mechanisms of norepinephrine/adrenaline).
I wish someone on here could get some CLonidine somehow and try it out, or some herbal equivalent. I have a heart condition and am seeing my doc pretty soon, im going to ask and see if I can get some.
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I have been taking B-Complex with C, not too high a dosage though, maybe a third of the Now complex dosage, and 500 mg of Vit C.
If there have been any differences (outside of placebo), they would be:
Slight tendency to be more affected by stress, digestion gets unbalanced(short lived, a day and a half) with stressful situations,
A rash on my arms has recently emerged, red itchy spots, and perhaps drier skin all round, but that may be from before.
Seems like my erectile stamina is a little better.
I still take around 150 to 200 mg niacin pre-orgasm. Usually at night. Don't sleep too well, but from the next day on I'm POIS basically free.
So the stamina seems to be the main improvement, if it is even related to the B-Complex, and my after orgasm POIS is about the same, although maybe don't
sleep as well post orgasm.
Granted my B-Complex dosage is fairly low.
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CertainlyPOIS, I honestly think ur reaction to adderall has alot more to do with high levels of noradrenaline/adrenaline than it does with low dopamine. I get the exact same response to adderall. Actually when I take adderall my heart races so fast and pumps so hard there were times I thought I was going to die, plus I would pee an insane amount, all indication that noradrenaline/adrenaline are being dumped at a massive rate in the body.
This would make sense since Kurtosis and I have landed on the idea that this is a noradrenaline problem going on, it seems us POISers have too high levels of this stuff and orgasms wreak havoc on us because of this.
Another way to put it is this: our bodies can easily get triggered into a fight/flight response, which is why Kurtosis always mentions that alot of doctors treat POIS as an anxiety disorder. IF we want to get all medically technical having an easily triggered fight/flight response would actually be an anxiety problem, its just that for us it seems our anxiety gets triggered mainly just by orgasms, and is not our baseline personality.
Another interesting thing: Hyperadrenergic POTS is dealt with usually with two medications: 1. Clonidine(prevents the release of norepinephrine) and Mestinon(the prescription version of Huperzine A, which allows acetylcholine to stay around longer, and compete with the fight/flight mechanisms of norepinephrine/adrenaline).
I wish someone on here could get some CLonidine somehow and try it out, or some herbal equivalent. I have a heart condition and am seeing my doc pretty soon, im going to ask and see if I can get some.
I also get fast heart beat, i just thought that was normal since it contains lots of dopmine. I also dont get any results from other stimulants including caffeine just all the negative cant sleep effects, are you like that to.
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Yes, with caffeine i get no positives at all. I get fast heart beat, pee alot, tremor, anxiety, and actually get more tired after drinking it, tired but no sleepy, thats the key. I feel like thats because i already have high noradrenaline and the caffeine makes it worse.
Interestingly, I can handle nicotine better than caffeine, probably because of its parasympathetic stimulation it provides to counter the fight/flight response.
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CertainlyPOIS, I honestly think ur reaction to adderall has alot more to do with high levels of noradrenaline/adrenaline than it does with low dopamine. I get the exact same response to adderall. Actually when I take adderall my heart races so fast and pumps so hard there were times I thought I was going to die, plus I would pee an insane amount, all indication that noradrenaline/adrenaline are being dumped at a massive rate in the body.
This would make sense since Kurtosis and I have landed on the idea that this is a noradrenaline problem going on, it seems us POISers have too high levels of this stuff and orgasms wreak havoc on us because of this.
Another way to put it is this: our bodies can easily get triggered into a fight/flight response, which is why Kurtosis always mentions that alot of doctors treat POIS as an anxiety disorder. IF we want to get all medically technical having an easily triggered fight/flight response would actually be an anxiety problem, its just that for us it seems our anxiety gets triggered mainly just by orgasms, and is not our baseline personality.
Another interesting thing: Hyperadrenergic POTS is dealt with usually with two medications: 1. Clonidine(prevents the release of norepinephrine) and Mestinon(the prescription version of Huperzine A, which allows acetylcholine to stay around longer, and compete with the fight/flight mechanisms of norepinephrine/adrenaline).
I wish someone on here could get some CLonidine somehow and try it out, or some herbal equivalent. I have a heart condition and am seeing my doc pretty soon, im going to ask and see if I can get some.
Will be interesting to see if you could get clonidine. I was speaking with B_Daniel about it as an easier alternative to the "Kurtosis Cocktail" which walks a bit of a tightrope between too much and too little dopamine raw materials on a daily basis. If you take too much then you increase norephinephrine too much with bad results.
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this is my problem with dopamine. When i used Aderrall/ritalin they dont do anything for me cognitve wise. But i still feel very hyper and both affect my sleep. doesnt this mean dopamine is at play.
I was prescribed adderrall and it made me feel like I was having a heart attack. It was just too stimulating and I don't believe it was addressing whatever problem was causing POIS. Caffeine doesn't work for me either unless it's accompanied by taurine, theanine or both. A cup of coffee makes me feel like crap. Some red bull or equivalent energy drink (but not too much) works pretty well. I chalk this up to theanine and taurine which have a calming effect.
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I have been taking B-Complex with C, not too high a dosage though, maybe a third of the Now complex dosage, and 500 mg of Vit C.
If there have been any differences (outside of placebo), they would be:
Slight tendency to be more affected by stress, digestion gets unbalanced(short lived, a day and a half) with stressful situations,
A rash on my arms has recently emerged, red itchy spots, and perhaps drier skin all round, but that may be from before.
Seems like my erectile stamina is a little better.
I still take around 150 to 200 mg niacin pre-orgasm. Usually at night. Don't sleep too well, but from the next day on I'm POIS basically free.
So the stamina seems to be the main improvement, if it is even related to the B-Complex, and my after orgasm POIS is about the same, although maybe don't
sleep as well post orgasm.
Granted my B-Complex dosage is fairly low.
Any ginkgo?
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Just thought I should mention, the past couple of days ive significantly upped my protein intake by taking whey protein elite series.
Ive also upped my dosage of vitamins making sure i get at least 150% percent of every vitamin and mineral listed on the back of typcial multivitamins. IT seems the combo of high protein plus vitamins/minerals really helps.
Also i take soy lecithin to get the 550mg requirement of choline per day. Choline is not found in signigicant amounts in multivitamins nor b complex vitamins.
Basically what ive been doing is: 1. high protein 2. high multivitamin/minerals 3. high choline.
Which is essentially the "Kurtosis cocktail" and its definitely reducing alot of brain fog.
I also make sure to take a good amount of sodium/potassium every day, it seems to help with the nerve transmission and muscles
Essentially, I think whats happening is this regimen is increasing dopamine levels through the high protein/minerals/vitamins and helping counteract norepinpehrine through higher levels of acetylcholine.
The good thing is that as long as ur increasing dopamine with phenylalanine/tyrosine and not L-dopa ur body has a regulation mechanism which will slow dopamine production the higher ur levels of catecholamines are. Meaning that the "Kurtosis Cocktail" has little chance of creating too much norepinephrine but a muchbetter chance of treating dopamine deficiency.
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I also wanted to mention, the whey protein definitely helps alot, but it makes me sick to my stomach, so im trying to figure out a way to get around that.
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Just thought I should mention, the past couple of days ive significantly upped my protein intake by taking whey protein elite series.
Ive also upped my dosage of vitamins making sure i get at least 150% percent of every vitamin and mineral listed on the back of typcial multivitamins. IT seems the combo of high protein plus vitamins/minerals really helps.
Also i take soy lecithin to get the 550mg requirement of choline per day. Choline is not found in signigicant amounts in multivitamins nor b complex vitamins.
Basically what ive been doing is: 1. high protein 2. high multivitamin/minerals 3. high choline.
Which is essentially the "Kurtosis cocktail" and its definitely reducing alot of brain fog.
I also make sure to take a good amount of sodium/potassium every day, it seems to help with the nerve transmission and muscles
Essentially, I think whats happening is this regimen is increasing dopamine levels through the high protein/minerals/vitamins and helping counteract norepinpehrine through higher levels of acetylcholine.
The good thing is that as long as ur increasing dopamine with phenylalanine/tyrosine and not L-dopa ur body has a regulation mechanism which will slow dopamine production the higher ur levels of catecholamines are. Meaning that the "Kurtosis Cocktail" has little chance of creating too much norepinephrine but a muchbetter chance of treating dopamine deficiency.
Except for the fact that the body is supposed to be able to regulate norepinephrine anyway but it doesn't seem our bodies are doing a good job of that when we have an O. I've managed to take too much protein. Theoretically, the arginocarn can work similar to NGF which will stimulate the synethsis of tyrosine hydroxylase. End result is that this will increase tyrosine to dopamine (via dopa) conversion. So I think it is possible to take too much.
The ginkgo sort of smooths everything out. Or at least that's my experience. It appears to seriously reduce the crash after an O and speed the recovery time.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC65524/
Norepinephrine causes muscle pain, this could be another thing!
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which ginko is good , well i am going to buy vitamin b6 tommorow from gnc store .... what mg should i take ........
i heard i should also try gensing Q of homeo meds ......??
but deffenitly i will be buying b6 tommorw ...... let see ......
one thing i should mention here .... i bout GNC big 100 of vitamin b , but i am shoked it makes me sick ..... as i was hoping alot .....
thanks every one
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which ginko is good , well i am going to buy vitamin b6 tommorow from gnc store .... what mg should i take ........
i heard i should also try gensing Q of homeo meds ......??
but deffenitly i will be buying b6 tommorw ...... let see ......
one thing i should mention here .... i bout GNC big 100 of vitamin b , but i am shoked it makes me sick ..... as i was hoping alot .....
thanks every one
GNC ginkgo is fine. They do a 120mg per capsule version and I think it's a cheap price. As I've said before, I have no idea why a b vitamin complex is making you sick. Have you tried the Now b coenzyme complex?
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I also wanted to mention, the whey protein definitely helps alot, but it makes me sick to my stomach, so im trying to figure out a way to get around that.
It doesn't make me sick to my stomach but it's fair to say that I haven't found a whey protein that I like the taste of. Particularly when I have to get very low lactose or ideally lactose free protein. :(
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http://www.endmusclepain.com/ (http://www.endmusclepain.com/) what do you think about it?
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which ginko is good , well i am going to buy vitamin b6 tommorow from gnc store .... what mg should i take ........
i heard i should also try gensing Q of homeo meds ......??
but deffenitly i will be buying b6 tommorw ...... let see ......
one thing i should mention here .... i bout GNC big 100 of vitamin b , but i am shoked it makes me sick ..... as i was hoping alot .....
thanks every one
GNC ginkgo is fine. They do a 120mg per capsule version and I think it's a cheap price. As I've said before, I have no idea why a b vitamin complex is making you sick. Have you tried the Now b coenzyme complex?
B complex make me feel seek too...
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I have been taking B-Complex with C, not too high a dosage though, maybe a third of the Now complex dosage, and 500 mg of Vit C.
If there have been any differences (outside of placebo), they would be:
Slight tendency to be more affected by stress, digestion gets unbalanced(short lived, a day and a half) with stressful situations,
A rash on my arms has recently emerged, red itchy spots, and perhaps drier skin all round, but that may be from before.
Seems like my erectile stamina is a little better.
I still take around 150 to 200 mg niacin pre-orgasm. Usually at night. Don't sleep too well, but from the next day on I'm POIS basically free.
So the stamina seems to be the main improvement, if it is even related to the B-Complex, and my after orgasm POIS is about the same, although maybe don't
sleep as well post orgasm.
Granted my B-Complex dosage is fairly low.
Any ginkgo?
I was thinking about it. But I take BP meds, don't know if I should take ginkgo or not?
All in all, the only real symptoms that remain are itchy eyes and inflamed joints. And the complicated sleep seems to be more related to higher B-Complex intake.
I sleep poorly for about 3 days after "O", each day lighter than the last.
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how many time per day should we take b-complex?
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how many time per day should we take b-complex?
I only take it once. As for how you get protein, well I'm taking whey.
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I have been taking B-Complex with C, not too high a dosage though, maybe a third of the Now complex dosage, and 500 mg of Vit C.
If there have been any differences (outside of placebo), they would be:
Slight tendency to be more affected by stress, digestion gets unbalanced(short lived, a day and a half) with stressful situations,
A rash on my arms has recently emerged, red itchy spots, and perhaps drier skin all round, but that may be from before.
Seems like my erectile stamina is a little better.
I still take around 150 to 200 mg niacin pre-orgasm. Usually at night. Don't sleep too well, but from the next day on I'm POIS basically free.
So the stamina seems to be the main improvement, if it is even related to the B-Complex, and my after orgasm POIS is about the same, although maybe don't
sleep as well post orgasm.
Granted my B-Complex dosage is fairly low.
Any ginkgo?
I was thinking about it. But I take BP meds, don't know if I should take ginkgo or not?
All in all, the only real symptoms that remain are itchy eyes and inflamed joints. And the complicated sleep seems to be more related to higher B-Complex intake.
I sleep poorly for about 3 days after "O", each day lighter than the last.
Yeah, that's a tricky one. You'll need to discuss it with your doctor. The BP medication is probably to lower your blood pressure and ginkgo will also do that so the 2 could interact and lower your blood pressure too much. Perhaps there's some way for your doctor to slightly reduce your BP meds. I don't know, you'll definitely have to discuss it with them.
Varying the dosage of a BP med is not something to take lightly of course.
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Nice info thanks every one
Only Gnc b comMplex making me sick
Yes stamina makes too much diff
I am still looking for complete change in diet I should take more sea food
It lowers symptoms
2nd day now flue symptoms all over me
Thankyou all
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There are only a select few brands that make the B Complex CoEnzyme: NOW, Solgar, and Country Life. So if you're taking any other brand, 99% chance it's not the coEnzyme version. Also, just bc you're taking one of the 3 brands shown above, doesn't necessarily mean it's the coenzyme version either. I read a bunch of Amazon reviews about B Vitamin CoEnzyme, and a LOT of ppl said that the regular B Vitamins made them feel sick, but the CoEnzyme version doesn't. I submit that if you're feeling sick, you're not taking the right kind.
On another note, I'd like to add that i think Ginkgo is a very important part of Kurtosis' treatment. I stopped taking ginkgo for a few days and started to feel much worse. I've gotten back on it and feel better again. 2 Ginkgo's a day is important.
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(http://www.poiscenter.com/newsletters/NL-6.jpg) (http://www.rarediseases.org/about/support/research-donations/fg_base_view_p3)
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thanks for your reply ....
i bought yesterday 50 mg of B6 tablets from another company not GNC .... lets see
how to know co enzyme???
somebody told me to take royal jelly + ginko .....?? now i am again confused ......
lets see i might look for it too ....
thanks alot
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thanks for your reply ....
i bought yesterday 50 mg of B6 tablets from another company not GNC .... lets see
how to know co enzyme???
somebody told me to take royal jelly + ginko .....?? now i am again confused ......
lets see i might look for it too ....
thanks alot
I tried royal jelly ages ago and it didn't have much effect for me. If you could add just one more supplement besides ginkgo to the b coenzymes then I'd add acetyl l-carnitine arginate.
I've also tried St. John's Wort now and it seems to have a good effect. I think this may have something to do with an inhibitory effect on the conversion of dopamine to norenpinephrine but I'm not sure. I feel a lot more even after an O when I take it. A good way to test this would be for someone to discuss this with their doctor and try clonidine which should have a similar effect. If this dramatically reduces POIS symptoms then it would strengthen the hypothesis that myself and haidcat have been talking about.
Certainly whenever I've been prescribed something that's designed to specifically raise norepinephrine (like others I was prescribed some ADHD medication a while back) it made me feel manic, brain fogged and completely unable to function. It was like a more extreme form of POIS but with extra energy.
I spoke with my doctor about anti-depressants and they said that medical science is still not 100% sure how they work. They may lead to structural changes in the brain (mostly beneficial) but that it was nearly certain that any effect from neurogenesis (currently understood to be encouraging new brain cells to grow in the hippocampus) would take several weeks to show. Ginkgo, acetyl l-carnitine arginate and st. john's wort all appear to stimulate neurogenesis. The 2 herbs and the ALCAR-arginate may be complimentary in how they work. Any benefit you're getting in the relief of stress would take several weeks to show.
If someone says they have constant POIS and their symptoms resemble that of both an anxiety disorder and depression then it seems really really unlikely that any treatment would work overnight. You may feel better but stress & anxiety causes changes in your brain that take a while to recover from. This is why doctor's tell patients to stick with a regime for 4-6 weeks unless it's making them feel sick.
So even if POIS is a problem caused by imbalances in the dopamine to norepinephrine ratio (big IF) and even if we have a viable long term treatment (again it's a big IF) nobody could expect to get better overnight.
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There are only a select few brands that make the B Complex CoEnzyme: NOW, Solgar, and Country Life. So if you're taking any other brand, 99% chance it's not the coEnzyme version. Also, just bc you're taking one of the 3 brands shown above, doesn't necessarily mean it's the coenzyme version either. I read a bunch of Amazon reviews about B Vitamin CoEnzyme, and a LOT of ppl said that the regular B Vitamins made them feel sick, but the CoEnzyme version doesn't. I submit that if you're feeling sick, you're not taking the right kind.
On another note, I'd like to add that i think Ginkgo is a very important part of Kurtosis' treatment. I stopped taking ginkgo for a few days and started to feel much worse. I've gotten back on it and feel better again. 2 Ginkgo's a day is important.
That's 240mg. I don't take that every day but if I've had an O I'll take another 120 and I'll take 240mg the next day. I suppose if I had more O's I'd be taking 240mg a day :)
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Kurtosis, what do you think about this article? From steadyhealth.com:
So, what about effects of over-masturbation?
Sperm contains DNA, which is carrier of the heredity genetic code, and RNA which contains enzymes, proteins, glucosides, lecithin, calcium, phosphorus, biological salts, testosterone, etc. However, the sperm is by far not the only substance in our body that contains DNA and RNA. When ejaculation is carried out, a very small percentage of this components (enzymes, proteins, glucosides, lecithin, calcium, phosphorus, biological salts, testosterone) are eliminated from the body. For example, when extracting calcium from the body one could cause him/ herself fatigue and pain in the bones. But we all know calcium (and all other components) are easily substituted with food. Actually, it is normal to extract 'old' components and replace them with new ones.
Over-masturbation, or more accurately said over-ejaculation stimulates parasympathetic nervous functions, which results in the over production of sex hormones: acetylcholine, dopamine and serotonin. Abnormally high levels of sex hormones cause brain and adrenal glands to perform excessive dopamine-norepinephrine-epinephrine conversion. In other words: there is a big change of body chemistry when man or woman practices over-masturbation.
Hmm... is something wrong with body chemistry? Well, actually not- if there is balance. But if there is no balance, some other symptoms might occur. We are still talking about over-masturbation, not just masturbation!
Another source points out that people who over-masturbate could experience problems with concentration and memory, which is supposedly a clear sign of “being over drained of acetylcholine”. According to some sources
over-masturbating can also drain the motor nerves, neuro-muscular endings, and tissues of acetylcholine and replace it with too much stress adrenalin which is where absentmindedness, memory loss, lack of concentration, and eye floaters come from.
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Thankyou for the detail answer I really appreciate it
I don't think I can hold of these meds here
I want to ask why I sweat alot why
Any one ???
Thankyou
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I' m recicling the Hidroxil pills i bought some monts ago.
I had stopped taking them because made me feel crap. So now i'm dividing each pill in 6 parts and taking one part per day, then saving properly the other ones.
in this way i'm taking only about 50mg of b1 and b6 and some b12.
do you think vitamins could lose they effect in this way?
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Kurtosis, what do you think about this article? From steadyhealth.com:
So, what about effects of over-masturbation?
Internal body temperature is a bit higher than external body temperature. Internal body temperature increases with masturbation- this is the reason you feel more hot or sometimes even sweaty after masturbating. Considering that, we found following information: when person ejaculates, a “peristaltic movement of absorption takes place and by effect of the emptiness, the seminal vesicle tries to fill and humid air is absorbed through the penis which is later absorbed from the seminal vesicle to the lymphatic system, arriving at the brain producing a thermal shock and cold spaces between the cerebral neurons and cells and this affects cerebral, physical and nervous normality” (anael.org). Well, the same thing happens when having sex and not ejaculating in partner, but using removal method (which is very popular among steady couples), and not one source mentions that. Later on same source mentions that seminal vesicle absorb air, which is transferred into brain, which may leads to stupidity and insanity. We think this is nonsense! Simply ask yourself- do you feel more stupid or more insane before/ after masturbation?!
Sperm contains DNA, which is carrier of the heredity genetic code, and RNA which contains enzymes, proteins, glucosides, lecithin, calcium, phosphorus, biological salts, testosterone, etc. However, the sperm is by far not the only substance in our body that contains DNA and RNA. When ejaculation is carried out, a very small percentage of this components (enzymes, proteins, glucosides, lecithin, calcium, phosphorus, biological salts, testosterone) are eliminated from the body. For example, when extracting calcium from the body one could cause him/ herself fatigue and pain in the bones. But we all know calcium (and all other components) are easily substituted with food. Actually, it is normal to extract 'old' components and replace them with new ones.
Over-masturbation, or more accurately said over-ejaculation stimulates parasympathetic nervous functions, which results in the over production of sex hormones: acetylcholine, dopamine and serotonin. Abnormally high levels of sex hormones cause brain and adrenal glands to perform excessive dopamine-norepinephrine-epinephrine conversion. In other words: there is a big change of body chemistry when man or woman practices over-masturbation.
Hmm... is something wrong with body chemistry? Well, actually not- if there is balance. But if there is no balance, some other symptoms might occur. We are still talking about over-masturbation, not just masturbation!
Another source points out that people who over-masturbate could experience problems with concentration and memory, which is supposedly a clear sign of “being over drained of acetylcholine”. According to some sources
over-masturbating can also drain the motor nerves, neuro-muscular endings, and tissues of acetylcholine and replace it with too much stress adrenalin which is where absentmindedness, memory loss, lack of concentration, and eye floaters come from.
It sounds plausible that "over masturbating" could create a problem but there is no evidence as far as I'm aware that having an O a day produces devastating cognitive symptoms whereas POIS sufferers are suffering from these when they have even an O ever week or 2. If there was, everybody would have POIS. However, everybody is familiar with feeling out of sorts if they have too much sex. They need to refuel their body, rebuild neurotransmitters and recuperate.
Some of us say they're suffering from POIS all the time. Honestly, I suspect the issue is hormonal. One possibility is an inability to regulate the testosterone to progesterone ratio properly. Progesterone has a calming effect on our CNS. 2 of the symptoms of progesterone deficiency in women are fatigue and increased anxiety. Theoretically, too little of it would raise norepinephrine. It's produces in the testes along with testosterone but they use the same basic ingredients. I've found that pregnenolone seems to relieve my POIS completely, particularly when combined with DHEA. I am NOT ADVOCATING trying this and any consumption of pro hormones must be medically supervised. Also, Demografx' testosterone therapy may free up the raw ingredients to produce more progesterone. I'm not sure if he's had all his hormone levels checked before and after he tried this treatment but I'd be interested to see the results if he has.
There are a few reasons why such an imbalance could happen. The end result could be a tendency to overproduce norepinephrine meaning any shock to our nervous system produces the symptoms of a panic attack. It would be really bad following an O because the body has a conditioned chemical response which evolved to refocus after a blissful state rather than worsen a shock state.
I also think there are LOTS of POIS sufferers out there but they've invented religious/spiritual or pseudo-medical reasons for the negative effects of an O as, globally, there is still a huge discomfort in talking about and treating sexual dysfunctions. I seriously doubt this the few hundred sufferers here are the only sufferers in the world.
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Thankyou for the detail answer I really appreciate it
I don't think I can hold of these meds here
I want to ask why I sweat alot why
Any one ???
Thankyou
You might be answering your own question in your signature
After Orgasm or even slight excitment,Cognitive disorder,depression, anxiety Attack , negative thoughts , nerves pain ,24 hour head stiffness , blocked nose ,Brain Fog, Insomnia.
So an O is the same as slight excitement and sweating is a symptom of too much norepinephrine and epinephrine i.e. a state of panic.
Read http://www.livestrong.com/article/239489-adrenal-gland-disorders-excessive-sweating/
If you have a doctor you can trust you may like to ask them if it's possible to get prescribed something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clonidine
to deal specifically with a medical condition that you believe is making you anxious. You should discuss all your symptoms with them in detail. If you don't have a doctor you trust then get another one. As Demografx says, there are a lot of good reasons to fire your doctor.
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I forgot to finish my point about over-masturbating. I suspect that there are many POIS sufferers who are following normal sexual practices but who believe that they're over indulging and deciding that their pain and suffering is punishment from god. A few google searches shows others describing POIS like symptoms.
Take a look at the Kinsey institute reports (perhaps we could contact them) or indeed other reports on what's normal sexual practice. Maybe there are some sufferers here who feel compelled to have multiple O's every day but that doesn't seem to be the case based on the forum. Most of us are happy if we have one a week :) I don't think we're overindulging and I hope nobody believes we're being punished.
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Getting more sweat after taking b6 50 mg
Do you know y and now what should I do
I also wanted to get b1 50 mg
Guide pls
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(http://www.poiscenter.com/newsletters/NL-6.jpg) (http://www.rarediseases.org/about/support/research-donations/fg_base_view_p3)
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should i try b co zym ?????????????
why b6 50 mg giving me sweating ????????????
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sameer, perhaps you can ask your doctor how much is good for YOU?
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should i try b co zym ?????????????
why b6 50 mg giving me sweating ????????????
Sameer, Demografx speaks the truth. You're going to have to talk to your doctor about this.
Explain your symptoms like I said earlier.
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Quick question Kurtosis, do you find that you need to take the carnitine on an empty stomach for it to work? the label on the back says to do that, which is very inconvenient. Also, how much carnitine are you taking?
It seems the carnitine works by increasing fat metabolism, which is the main powerhouse for ATP, something I think we all could use.
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Ha ha what you guys talking about I have been to 15 doctors with my Pois symptoms and they think I am nuts
Cmon guys really shocked !! Lol !!
They think I am crazy
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Quick question Kurtosis, do you find that you need to take the carnitine on an empty stomach for it to work? the label on the back says to do that, which is very inconvenient. Also, how much carnitine are you taking?
It seems the carnitine works by increasing fat metabolism, which is the main powerhouse for ATP, something I think we all could use.
It works well when you take it first thing in the morning. I don't eat for about 30 minutes and I can feel its affects by then. That and the b vitamins. I only take one tablet of the solgar carnitine complex and one of the b coenzyme. I take my first ginkgo when I get into work.
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I think I've found the link between what works for Demografx (hormone treatment) and what seems to be working for others (trying to boost dopamine while reducing stress - norepinephrine).
Orgasms are associated with a norepinephrine spike. Dopamine spikes too and then appears to be quickly brought down by prolactin.
So why might testosterone help with catecholamine imbalance? Because that's one of the key roles of testosterone in the body.
- Testosterone increases dopamine levels.
- It increases Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) levels (see reports of DHEA-S and the apparently safer 7-keto DHEA reductions in thyroid disease)
http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/57%20Suppl%201/57_S119.pdf
- Testosterone appears to calm the brain and reduces dopamine to norepinephrine conversion.
- Also, when TSH levels are too low, the body produces norepinephrine to compensate. This is supposed to be a short term measure as elevated nor* is a stress state which elevates cortisol and is unhealthy. Increasing testosterone will reduce the requirement to do this, having a double calming effect on norepinephrine production.
- An estradiol to testosterone imbalance can lead to poor concentration and quick temper / frustration.
- Testosterone in an anti-inflammatory which helps reduce inflammatory cytokines. These effectively create the appearance of allergic reactions to things that we wouldn't otherwise be allergic to. Where I'm going with this is that it's a chicken & egg thing to decide between a semen allergy (or allergy to anything else) in someone with a hormonal synthesis problem.
See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15240608
Let's say the allergic reaction occurred in the gut and was affecting nutrient absorption which reduced thyroid function and testosterone synthesis. Then the allergic reaction may be at fault. Let's say there's a hormonal imbalance and the person gets acne, skin inflammations and other allergic reactions that are the result of out of control cytokine production. Then it's the hormonal imbalance that's at fault. There's a degree of undecidability here and treating the allergy or treating the hormonal imbalance may both reduce symptoms.
I'm thinking of this paper http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20722061?dopt=Abstract
Testosterone treatment initially makes someone suffering from hypogonadism (I guess that's the label that was applied to Demo) feel very perky as they get a dopamine rush from increased dopamine in a brain whose dopamine receptors have unregulated to cope with less dopamine. After a while this reduces but in a case of genuine hypogonadism (or similar hormone production issue) then TRT should continue to show benefits. In cases where an issue doesn't exist then TRT reduces internal testosterone synthesis. This is a known problem for body builders who have used this stuff as their testicular hormonal production is squashed.
So this is pretty interesting in my opinion. There are examples of people with pheochromocytoma that wasn't noticed because of TRT (it compensated for it) and people with hormonal synthesis problems that were masked by the consumption of MAO inhibitors (alpha & beta-blockers)
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitor for more information about MAO inhibitors.
Incidentally, Quercetin which is a compound in Ginkgo appears to be a mild MAO-A but stronger MAO-B inhibitor. i.e. this may improve dopamine levels and dopamine to norepinephrine balance.
POIS could have more than one root cause and multiple treatments may improve the cognitive symptoms or allergic symptoms or both.
Note, this is not encouragement to take anything. I'm just pulling information together & trying to figure out the commonality between what people are saying is helping them and what isn't.
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I have yet to try the b-vitamin combination, but I did try huperzine and it did have some benefit. I noticed it significantly improved my memory and slightly improved my cognitive function in general. I've been taking 200mcg per day since monday 8/27 and stopped today so about 3 weeks. I took it along with fenugreek, green tea, and omega 3 fish oil caps.
I would say it works better than ginkgo and the effect lasts longer from each dose than ginkgo.
Edit- Forgot to mention that one of the key indicators for an improved memory is that I can almost always remember my dreams when I wake up (in the days I was taking huperzine). Even when I was taking ginkgo I couldn't remember my dreams that well.
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Let's Cure POIS. Now.
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Let's all make "THE DARK NIGHT (POIS) RISES (Cured)!"
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I have yet to try the b-vitamin combination, but I did try huperzine and it did have some benefit. I noticed it significantly improved my memory and slightly improved my cognitive function in general. I've been taking 200mcg per day since monday 8/27 and stopped today so about 3 weeks. I took it along with fenugreek, green tea, and omega 3 fish oil caps.
I would say it works better than ginkgo and the effect lasts longer from each dose than ginkgo.
Edit- Forgot to mention that one of the key indicators for an improved memory is that I can almost always remember my dreams when I wake up (in the days I was taking huperzine). Even when I was taking ginkgo I couldn't remember my dreams that well.
I found that ginkgo works better. I only get a big effect from huperzine unless I've been taking ginkgo. This may be another example of the subtle differences in people's POIS or it may also be related to the ginkgo source. I've bought 3 different brands of ginkgo. 2 worked great and one seemed to make my stomach feel sick and didn't work as effectively. Haven't figured out what it was.
BTW, thanks for the kind words prancer.
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Which brands of ginkgo do you use?
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Which brands of ginkgo do you use?
Now Ginkgo, GNC Ginkgo.
I tried a ginkgo with ginseng but that's not a good idea if you think you may have a problem with elevated norephinephrine. My experience with ginseng is different to other non-POIS sufferers. I find it makes me more anxious and reduces the benefits I experience with ginkgo. I've heard others say ginseng helps them deal with stress so I'm guessing the difference is norepinephrine levels. A big guess but hey... my guesses are sure working for me :)
More interesting research.
Use of taurine in managing norepinephrine levels. As I've said a few times, I take this with acetyl l-carnitine.
A modulating role of taurine on release of acetylcholine and norepinephrine from neuronal tissues.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/691871
Modulation of noradrenaline uptake and release by taurine in rat cerebral slices.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6527772
Oddly it seems that higher sodium intake may reduce norepinephrine but it will then raise blood pressure. This may explain some of the short-term success of Going Crazy's Salt+C treatment but increased salt intake wouldn't be a good idea of course.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/422701
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After taking ginkgo biloba, I experience lethargy all day long. I think it doesn't suit me. I'd like to try protein supplement like spirulina in near future, because brewer's yeast which is rich in protein seems to help a little (reducing NE especially).
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i just saw habibou cathechlomine results you will like this kurtosis.
I had a blood test dealing with Catecholamines :
Noradrenaline 8.53 nmol/l N : < 4.00 nmol/l
Dopamine 0.71 µmol/24h N : < 3.00 µmol/24h
My GP said it was unbalanced and gave me "dopastim" to help it but it didn't change anything yet...
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this are my results.
they are urine test, i dont think they tell what is going on in brain.
epinephirine 7 ug/l
epinephrine 24hr 10 ug/24hr 0- 32
norepinephirine 43 ug/l
norepinephrine 24hr 60 ug/24hr 0 - 140
dopamine 157
dopamine 24hr 220 ug/24hr 65 - 610
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After taking ginkgo biloba, I experience lethargy all day long. I think it doesn't suit me. I'd like to try protein supplement like spirulina in near future, because brewer's yeast which is rich in protein seems to help a little (reducing NE especially).
If that's the case then please don't continue with taking Ginkgo. Let us know how you get on with protein supplements. I actually quite like the natural muscle milk one. It doesn't have artificial flavours or colourings.
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i just saw habibou cathechlomine results you will like this kurtosis.
I had a blood test dealing with Catecholamines :
Noradrenaline 8.53 nmol/l N : < 4.00 nmol/l
Dopamine 0.71 µmol/24h N : < 3.00 µmol/24h
My GP said it was unbalanced and gave me "dopastim" to help it but it didn't change anything yet...
Yeah, I got a bit excited when I saw those :D I'm sure your doctor has told you not to expect an overnight response from dopastim.
By the way, I've never heard of it. Do you have a link or more information about which company manufactures dopastim?
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i just saw habibou cathechlomine results you will like this kurtosis.
I had a blood test dealing with Catecholamines :
Noradrenaline 8.53 nmol/l N : < 4.00 nmol/l
Dopamine 0.71 µmol/24h N : < 3.00 µmol/24h
My GP said it was unbalanced and gave me "dopastim" to help it but it didn't change anything yet...
Yeah, I got a bit excited when I saw those :D I'm sure your doctor has told you not to expect an overnight response from dopastim.
By the way, I've never heard of it. Do you have a link or more information about which company manufactures dopastim?
those are not mine those are habibou's, you should probably have a chat with him.
this what quick google search found.
Treatment DOPASTIM long offered 15 Days
vitality, dynamism and motivation
PRODUCT INFORMATION
Real complex dedicated to the vitality and dynamism , Dopastim combines all the nutrients needed to maintain an optimal level of neurotransmitter action: dopamine and norepinephrine. Rosea Rhodiola plant adaptogen and anti-fatigue, degradation fight against dopamine Tyrosine is the metabolic precursor of dopamine and noradrenaline Taurine preserves the stability of neurons and increases the release of dopamine. Dopastim be particularly effective in cases of chronic fatigue with lack of motivation and decreased vitality .
Taurine, Rhodiola rosea, Tyrosine, Magnesium, Zinc, Vitamin C, Vitamins B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, B8, B9, B12
all this reminds me of something.
you sure you not working for them ;D
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Haha, if I am I'm doing a terrible job of promoting this Dopastim product and I haven't tried it myself.
So Rhodiola Rosea is the MAO inhibitor in Dopastim. Interesting.
I think the catechins in decaffeinated green tea extract combined with theanine would work pretty well as epicatechin is a MAO-B inhibitor and theanine should stimulate dopamine release. I'm trying this at the moment. It's been ages since I experienced bad POIS so it's difficult to say how well it's working but I feel pretty good :)
You can find combination green tea extract + suntheanine from Now. I don't work for them either :D I just find that whenever I look for a product they have the precise formulation I'm looking for.
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Haha, if I am I'm doing a terrible job of promoting this Dopastim product and I haven't tried it myself.
So Rhodiola Rosea is the MAO inhibitor in Dopastim. Interesting.
I think the catechins in decaffeinated green tea extract combined with theanine would work pretty well as epicatechin is a MAO-B inhibitor and theanine should stimulate dopamine release. I'm trying this at the moment. It's been ages since I experienced bad POIS so it's difficult to say how well it's working but I feel pretty good :)
You can find combination green tea extract + suntheanine from Now. I don't work for them either :D I just find that whenever I look for a product they have the precise formulation I'm looking for.
going to hard drug level, a DBH inhibitor coupled with mao-b inhibtor and dopamine boosting drug should do the magic of fixing cognitive problems. But, am guessing mixing a mao-b inhibtor with DBH can be big problem.
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Haha, if I am I'm doing a terrible job of promoting this Dopastim product and I haven't tried it myself.
So Rhodiola Rosea is the MAO inhibitor in Dopastim. Interesting.
I think the catechins in decaffeinated green tea extract combined with theanine would work pretty well as epicatechin is a MAO-B inhibitor and theanine should stimulate dopamine release. I'm trying this at the moment. It's been ages since I experienced bad POIS so it's difficult to say how well it's working but I feel pretty good :)
You can find combination green tea extract + suntheanine from Now. I don't work for them either :D I just find that whenever I look for a product they have the precise formulation I'm looking for.
going to hard drug level, a DBH inhibitor coupled with mao-b inhibtor and dopamine boosting drug should do the magic of fixing cognitive problems. But, am guessing mixing a mao-b inhibtor with DBH can be big problem.
If the hypothesis is correct. However, you would definitely need to discuss the above with your doctor. Combining dopamine increasing substances (e.g. PEA) with MAO-B's makes people high and modifying dopamine levels so forcefully is something that should only be done under medical supervision.
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is whey protein for body builders decent source for amino acids needed neurotransmitter production.
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is whey protein for body builders decent source for amino acids needed neurotransmitter production.
Yes but I'd try not to take something with added glutamine. I don't think any of us need it :)
There's a school of thought that suggests that those with a heightened stress response have an inefficient conversion of glutamine to GABA. A normal person taking excess glutamine would feel better as it would be efficiently converted into GABA. Someone who has a problem converting it would just develop symptoms of excess glutamine which includes stress, nervous tics and difficulty concentrating.
You have to be careful when buying some of these whey protein products as some include all kinds of stimulants and other substances which appear to give the consumer a better workout. Now Foods do a nice natural whey and cytosport do muscle milk naturals. Europeans could buy a nice natural whey from Reflex Nutrition. I've tried all these and they're good. I'm sure there are others. I stay away from artificial flavours and sweeteners as I've found I react very badly to some of these (particularly aspartame and acesulfame K) and experience POIS like symptoms.
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I'm doing this diet for two months without any improve in my POIS symptoms...
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I'm doing this diet for two months without any improve in my POIS symptoms...
What are you taking for 2 months?
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If $50 to $100 or more seems like too much money to give for now, how about committing $5, $10, $20 or more per MONTH?
Select as many months as you want! 2 months, 3 months, 4 months, 6 months, 12 months, whatever! :)
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Simply click above and scroll down till you see, "Make this a recurring donation"...
THANK YOU, EVERYONE - YOUR AUTOMATIC MONTHLY DONATIONS WILL HASTEN OUR "FINAL STRETCH!"
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The problem is taking a lot of different pills, I have no idea what has an affect and what has not....I feel there is something in B complex from NowFood wich make me sick...when I take it I feel more tired than usual...
I received today a Tyrosine complexe
http://www.super-smart.eu/en--Endocrine-system--Natural-Thyro-Formula--0513
picamilion and some plant wich is supose to help production of testosterone
http://www.super-smart.eu/en--Endocrine-system--Tribulus-Terrestris-500-mg--0271
I'll try thoose only
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I'm doing this diet for two months without any improve in my POIS symptoms...
What are you taking for 2 months?
Morning
Coenzyme B- complex
Spirulina - 1 g
L- arginina
Vitamin C - 1 g
Ginkco - 2 pills
Night
Zinc - 30 mg
Ginkco - 1 pill
Vitamin C
I tried the Neptune Krill Oil but it made me fell vey sick...
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I'm doing this diet for two months without any improve in my POIS symptoms...
What are you taking for 2 months?
Morning
Coenzyme B- complex
Spirulina - 1 g
L- arginina
Vitamin C - 1 g
Ginkco - 2 pills
Night
Zinc - 30 mg
Ginkco - 1 pill
Vitamin C
I tried the Neptune Krill Oil but it made me fell vey sick...
OK, if it was me I'd reduce the spirulina, would not take l-arginine, ginkgo zinc or vitamin C at night.
Instead I'd add 500mg of l-methionine every morning with my b complex and have 500mg of l-methionine in the afternoon.
Alternatively, if you have obvious food allergies you could try something like DAO-sin in the afternoon which may reduce histamine in the stomach.
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I'm doing this diet for two months without any improve in my POIS symptoms...
What are you taking for 2 months?
Morning
Coenzyme B- complex
Spirulina - 1 g
L- arginina
Vitamin C - 1 g
Ginkco - 2 pills
Night
Zinc - 30 mg
Ginkco - 1 pill
Vitamin C
I tried the Neptune Krill Oil but it made me fell vey sick...
OK, if it was me I'd reduce the spirulina, would not take l-arginine, ginkgo zinc or vitamin C at night.
Instead I'd add 500mg of l-methionine every morning with my b complex and have 500mg of l-methionine in the afternoon.
Alternatively, if you have obvious food allergies you could try something like DAO-sin in the afternoon which may reduce histamine in the stomach.
I write wrong. I don?t take vitamin C at night, but vitamin D...
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OK. The other advice stands.
I'd take the spirulina around lunchtime.
I start my day with the b complex and methionine. It's a good combination.
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Hi kurtosis can I ask you a summary?
What brand do you recommend for the b-complex?
I only take niacin, samyr I have never had an effect in the past.
I'm also experimenting with the niacinamide but it is very difficult to understand the effect
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This pretty much all depends on genetics.
I like Thorne Extra Nutrients but the issue is whether someone can tolerate folic acid or whether they should only have methyl folate. Some people have both a methylation mutation (affecting either b12 or folic acid methylation) but someone can also have COMT mutations which means that they would clear dopamine or norepinephrine too slowly which means they'd have less tolerance for methycobalamin and methylfolate.
This is complicated and depends on mutations to gene producing MTHFR enzyme. So there's no one size fits all answer.
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Speak of the b-complex or samyr?
I did not understand which part of the complex I have to check that risks are there?
what are the choices? Thorne Extra Nutrients and?
thank u so much
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Speak of the b-complex or samyr?
I did not understand which part of the complex I have to check that risks are there?
what are the choices? Thorne Extra Nutrients and?
thank u so much
The choices depend on whether you know you have a mutation to any of the methylation genes. Specifically, particular MTHFR or MTR mutations suggest that the person should not take normal folic acid (iron) or b12 and instead should take the methylated forms of these. If someone has the problem they should avoid any b complex which has folic acid. It actually impedes the body's ability to use methylfolate.
People with these conditions often take deplin or metanx. Some people have a specific mutation that reduces the level of BH4. This may give them symptoms which are similar to but not as severe as phenylketonuria. The treatment would be similar. A restricted diet and supplements to stimulate BH4 OR synthetic BH4. It's not possible to say anybody has one or the other problem without tests.
So I can't recommend any brand without knowing what problem someone has.
I see 2 choices.
1) try to reduce mast cell release of histamine and perhaps prostaglandins by taking a mast cell stabiliser. Something like ketotifen. Consult with your doctor.
2) try to determine if you have cannot clear histamine adequately because you have an underlying methylation problem. Again, your options are DTC genetic testing & finding a doctor to consult with.
Currently I'm trying 2 but I keep a mast cell stabiliser handy. You really need to find a doctor who is happy with looking at these approaches and working with you. 2 requires careful introduction of a range of supplements with dose variation depending on results. 1 obviously requires some doctor's supervision as it's a prescription drug. You could try quercetin as an alternative to 1.
See http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0033805
but it would take some time to work and I've no idea how effective it would be. May be great as it seems to have noticeable prophylactic affect. It may not. It seems safer in the long run than taking something like clarityn D or a calcium channel blocker.
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So, how to find out if one shouldn't take folate without doing a genetics test: just take folate and see if you don't feel well?
Ive seen the Methl-Guard product they also offer, which i'm guessing has what you are saying is a methylated version of folate.
I honestly just stare at these posts, and don't understand what I should do! Well, I suspect the COMT gene issue for myself, as I've had problems with virtually all drugs that increase, decrease, or interfere with dopamine and norepinephrine.
I'm having a hard time tying together all the pieces of the puzzle you've laid out kurtosis, why is folate now a major factor in your treatment of POIS? It's not something I've spent time looking into before, and I'm feeling lost. I am going to try one of those supplements out there, because I believe in the undermethylation theory. Now, what do I do? I would just start taking Methyl Guard or a similar product, but I'm caught up with this folate business and why you prefer this other product, which I now see has a TON of ingredients.
I could use your brain for a moment kurtosis, mine isn't working quite right right now!
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So, how to find out if one shouldn't take folate without doing a genetics test: just take folate and see if you don't feel well?
Ive seen the Methl-Guard product they also offer, which i'm guessing has what you are saying is a methylated version of folate.
I honestly just stare at these posts, and don't understand what I should do! Well, I suspect the COMT gene issue for myself, as I've had problems with virtually all drugs that increase, decrease, or interfere with dopamine and norepinephrine.
I'm having a hard time tying together all the pieces of the puzzle you've laid out kurtosis, why is folate now a major factor in your treatment of POIS? It's not something I've spent time looking into before, and I'm feeling lost. I am going to try one of those supplements out there, because I believe in the undermethylation theory. Now, what do I do? I would just start taking Methyl Guard or a similar product, but I'm caught up with this folate business and why you prefer this other product, which I now see has a TON of ingredients.
I could use your brain for a moment kurtosis, mine isn't working quite right right now!
Nightingale. I can't tell you what to do. It seems like a puzzle because it is that.
Methyl Guard contains methyl folate. However, it won't work for everybody. Some people can't tolerate the amount of b6 or b12 in it and require other supplements. There really is no easy answer. I took it and got over an orgasm very quickly. The down side was that I felt completely wired. I went from possibly undermethylated to overmethylated (possibly, who knows) by taking 3 of the capsules. That convinced me more than anything that I needed to know my genetics.
If you look at the MTHFR.net blog and fora you'll see that people who respond well to it do not necessarily respond well from the very start. It's very difficult to judge. Some people just feel great. Others get a bit sicker at the start. My gut feeling is to try a simple 1mg methyl folate supplement and see if that improves things over 2-3 weeks. Nothing else but methyl folate.
I have no idea why you don't respond well to NADH. I respond very well to it. I felt slightly odd during the first week but it was great after that.
But I may have too little BH4 under stress and NADH provides another way to recycle that. NADH appears to increase certain markers of methylation despite the fact that it itself does not have a methyl donor.
The body is complex and a supplement can work for a reason which is entirely unrelated to the reason it's normally consumed for. That also means any supplement (particularly herbs) can have unintended consequences as they don't do just one thing.
I have no idea why others say methionine does nothing for them. It works great for me and should absolutely reduce histamine levels. B_Daniel still seems happy with SAM-e. It's not perfect but a big improvement.
My genetics may simply be different. It may be that I appreciate that an O will upset homeostasis so I don't have that many. The things that have worked for me have genuinely worked and helped me understand the chemistry of these reactions so much better than when I started. So rather than theorise about it I have to see the concrete facts of what enzymes in my body are likely to be performing less than optimally based on one or more mutations. That's all I can do. As soon as I know more about me I'll tell everybody but those results are personal and may not apply to everybody.
Otherwise I can't decide between possible causes for POIS like
- genetic (with known methylation mutation)
- genetic with unknown mutation (and I'll check pretty much every gene I can against the known databases as I have some software to do this)
- bacterial infection of some sort
- auto-immune disease
- something like mastocytosis (basically, too many mast cells).
If you get nowhere with methylfolate over 3 weeks then the next option is to ask your doctor about ketotifen which is a well known mast cell stabiliser. At the least, it may reduce the desire to have an O as there'd be less histamine in your body. If you don't want to try methylfolate then you could try a mast cell stabiliser immediately. Ask your doctor about it. I don't see that there's that much to lose so long as there's no negative interactions with your existing medication.
It's not about being convinced by one theory or another. I know Clarityn D works wonders. Now I'm seeing others are finding the same thing but these are not long term fixes. But in the short term, the easiest path to good results may be to try a mast cell stabiliser like ketotifen, under medical supervision. If I subsequently find a really good reason why methylation may cause POIS in me, I'll be sure to tell everybody about it :)
So you have 2 clear options to discuss with your doctor
1) methyl folate
2) ketotifen
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methyl folate looks to have some side effects to take in consideration :
http://mthfr.net/methylfolate-side-effects/2012/03/01/
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Thanks guys, that helps a lot
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methyl folate looks to have some side effects to take in consideration :
http://mthfr.net/methylfolate-side-effects/2012/03/01/
I experienced some of them and realised that 3 capsules a day of methyl guard for 5 days was just too much for me at the start :)
But it was kind of funny as I felt better AFTER an O. I went from "wired" to just about right. It was actually funny and I had the rare feeling that people actually have O's not just because of necessity but because they relax them.
It was an interesting experience but all those previous comments about genetics still stand. For example, some people (SUOX mutation) don't efficiently dispose of sulfur products. If they take SAMe it could lead to a rise in sulphites and/or ammonia levels. Not good but they could use Molybdenum to reduce those levels. Some people could take synthetic BH4 to reduce ammonia if they can't make enough of their own. (possibly because of MTHFR a1298c mutation) Some could increase BH4 via recycling using NADH. Boron helps too. There are multiple chemical cycles at work here and the same thing may not work for everybody and different people may have different problems.
So even if POIS is a methylation problem, tackling it via the nutritional route is not easy. But unless someone has 2 MTHFR mutations (+/+) and is COMT (+/+ ) then the thorne extra nutrients product might contain most of what they need and it can be taken in smaller dosages as the correct dose is likely between 1 and 6 capsules / day. So there's some flexibility there but it's an expensive supplement and I'm not buying anything else myself until I see my test results.
To give another example, if you have high levels of histamine you're likely to benefit from antioxidants like Vit C, Vitamin E and Vitamin D3 which is actually a steroid. CoQ10 helps too but buying all these separately is not cost effective and the dosages provided in individual supplements are arguably more than anyone actually needs. So I'd rather get some extra of these from taking 1 or 2 tablets then buying a cabinet load of individual supplements. But in order to figure out what the best multi vitamins to buy are, I'd like to know what supplements might be most beneficial for me and what might be a problem.
This is not a recommendation. I'm just describing how I'm thinking about all this.
But it seems more straightforward for most people to take a mast cell stabiliser & see how they get on :)
One last thing. I doubt if anyone with POIS needs extra calcium if they have a normal diet but they may need extra D to help absorb the calcium from the food they eat. Extra calcium will actually bind with magnesium and cause it to be excreted so loading up on calcium supplements may take magnesium from your body. A calcium overdose would be a seizure. Some doctors believe there's a connection between calcium./magnesium imbalance and migraines. Note that Nathan is achieving some success with a calcium channel blocker. While I think that may be too much in the long run, I think that high levels of calcium supplementation may actually worsen POIS symptoms. You're probably better off with dietary calcium and a small amount of extra magnesium and a lot of vitamin D3. Or skip the calcium and magnesium and just take the D3. Just an opinion ...
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For me, a B-Complex about 8 hrs after orgasm helps the joint pain.
I take one 8 hrs after and another on the next day.
I've been taking a highly bio-active B-Complex once a night for the past 24 days. 7 days into b-complex I started 500mg of acetyl-L-carnitine morning and night for 13 days. About 4 days after I started ALC I noticed an improvement in my joint pain, muscle strength, eye burning, face irritation, scalp itchiness, and perhaps cognition.
I also took 500mg methionine once a morning for 6 days starting at day 7 of B-complex/ALC, but it seemed to cause a slight worsening of symptoms.
For the past 4 days I've only been taking B-complex to determine whether it or ALC or both were improving my symptoms. I still feel improved symptoms, but it might be a residual effect of the ALC.
This is the B-complex I'm using: http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-activated-b-complex-high-bioavailability-60-caps
Thiamin (vitamin B-1) 54.4 mg 3,627%
(as benfotiamine)
Riboflavin (as riboflavin 5'-phosphate) 50 mg 2,941%
Niacin (as inositol hexanicotinate) 100 mg 500%
Vitamin B-6
(as pyridoxal 5-phosphate) 50 mg 2,500%
Folate 800 mcg 200%
(as Quatrefolic? [6S]-5-Methyltetrahydrofolic acid equivalent to 1.6 mg of [6S]-5-Methyltetrahydrofolic acid, glucosamine salt)
Vitamin B-12 500 mcg 8,333%
(as methylcobalamin)
Biotin 50 mcg 17%
Choline 50 mg *
(as choline dihydrogen citrate)
PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid) 50 mg *
Pantethine (coenzyme A precursor) 50 mg *
(from Pantesin? 80% pantethine)
Inositol 25 mg *
(from inositol hexanicotinate)
After analyzing my diet I noticed it looked low in b vitamins. This is the site I used to determine this: http://nutritiondata.self.com/
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It appears we should be careful with our synthetic folic acid(B-9) intake:
"A high intake of folic acid might mask detection of vitamin B12 deficiency and lead to a deterioration of central nervous system function in the elderly. In one study, consumption of folic acid in excess of 400 micrograms per day among older adults resulted in significantly faster rate of cognitive decline than supplement nonusers. (11) Another study found a higher prevalence of both anemia and cognitive impairment in association with high folic acid intake in older adults with a low vitamin B12 status. (12) As vitamin B12 deficiency is a common problem for many older adults, these studies suggest that high folic acid intake could cause serious cognitive consequences in the elderly."
http://chriskresser.com/folate-vs-folic-acid
Apparently methyl folate/5-methyltetrahydrofolate/5-MTHF is the safe form.
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Correction to my post about my b-vitamin trial. I had actually been taking the b-complex 7 days before I started ALC and for 24 days total. I think that was a bit too long to be taking that much once a night since it seemed I was starting to get odd tiny pain flashes in my joints that I previously didn't have. The past 2 days I stopped taking it and this sensation disappeared but my POIS symptoms still are generally improved.
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Correction to my post about my b-vitamin trial. I had actually been taking the b-complex 7 days before I started ALC and for 24 days total. I think that was a bit too long to be taking that much once a night since it seemed I was starting to get odd tiny pain flashes in my joints that I previously didn't have. The past 2 days I stopped taking it and this sensation disappeared but my POIS symptoms still are generally improved.
Of course every one's different, and when I took the B-Complex daily and niacin 1 hr before, my sex was better but my POIS was worse.
So I dropped the B-Complx, but just by chance, taking one pill the day after really helped my joints. Taking the B-Complex for more than 1 day didn't seem to
do anything, other than perhaps to start to make it worse again.
So far I've adjusted a bit.
Niacin 1 hr before, The next day when the joints start to act up, one B-Complex and MAYBE another one the next day if the joint problems are a bother.
Any more than that and the effects begin to become negative.
Trials are few though,
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Today was my fifth day on acetyl-L-carnitine without b-complex. I had disruptive pain in my knees and eyes for the first time in a while today so I'm going to assume for now that both the vitamins and ALC played a role in my improvement. I'm impatient to move on with trials for some herbs I haven't opened yet, but I'll continue taking ALC once or twice a day and b-complex about 3 times a week.
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so did anyone try clonidine or intuitiv?
I am very interested in this. Currently on lexapro for anxiety and ritalin. lexapro makes me tired, i think it has some norepi component to it. Ritalin is hit or miss for me. Ritalin actually makes me tired but not so much pns stimulation as adderall. Adderall made me feel exactly the same as handicat. clonidine is an add med, i might ask my pdoc for this.
CertainlyPOIS, I honestly think ur reaction to adderall has alot more to do with high levels of noradrenaline/adrenaline than it does with low dopamine. I get the exact same response to adderall. Actually when I take adderall my heart races so fast and pumps so hard there were times I thought I was going to die, plus I would pee an insane amount, all indication that noradrenaline/adrenaline are being dumped at a massive rate in the body.
This would make sense since Kurtosis and I have landed on the idea that this is a noradrenaline problem going on, it seems us POISers have too high levels of this stuff and orgasms wreak havoc on us because of this.
Another way to put it is this: our bodies can easily get triggered into a fight/flight response, which is why Kurtosis always mentions that alot of doctors treat POIS as an anxiety disorder. IF we want to get all medically technical having an easily triggered fight/flight response would actually be an anxiety problem, its just that for us it seems our anxiety gets triggered mainly just by orgasms, and is not our baseline personality.
Another interesting thing: Hyperadrenergic POTS is dealt with usually with two medications: 1. Clonidine(prevents the release of norepinephrine) and Mestinon(the prescription version of Huperzine A, which allows acetylcholine to stay around longer, and compete with the fight/flight mechanisms of norepinephrine/adrenaline).
I wish someone on here could get some CLonidine somehow and try it out, or some herbal equivalent. I have a heart condition and am seeing my doc pretty soon, im going to ask and see if I can get some.
Will be interesting to see if you could get clonidine. I was speaking with B_Daniel about it as an easier alternative to the "Kurtosis Cocktail" which walks a bit of a tightrope between too much and too little dopamine raw materials on a daily basis. If you take too much then you increase norephinephrine too much with bad results.
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Have read through a lot of the thread. I have 2 questions: Shall I go for the cure that's mentioned in the start or has anything changed? And I also find this about Ginkgo: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/29/new-doubts-about-ginkgo-biloba/?ref=health - What do you say about this?
EDIT: 1 more actually. What do you say about green tea? Good or bad?
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Well, there is no known cure to date....
Which one are you referring to exactly BTW.
It seems that some things help some and not others, no one thing seems to work for everybody.
I still think the jury is out on the desensitization process, its a long painful process that may or may not help.
Niacin works usually very well for those for which it actually works, but again, it doesn't work for all. At least it's not a long and painfull process to try.
Some have found that Fenugreek and garlic help, and some even say that the two together (Fenugreek, garlic) and niacin work wonders.
Vitamin B Complex works for some, makes it worse for others, and in many the effects tend to wear off after a time.
Each one here can maybe make his suggestion, but the real proof will come with research. Our personal trials are very uncontrolled. It's very difficult to make decisions when you don't know what preconditions were, if other things you have taken or eaten effect the outcome, if the weather that day
had some effect, and if your body represents that of the whole group or if you are different among the group for some
genetic variance or other health pre-condition.
All we can do is try to find relief one way or the other meantime.
I personally would suggest niacin..... Will that work for you? Who knows. Most who try it and find that it works, wonder why they waited so long.
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Yeah I know it's no known cure. I'm referring to the one in this thread. I wanted to know if that's the one people are using or if it's changed. Probably not. "Vitamin B Complex works for some, makes it worse for others, and in many the effects tend to wear off after a time." "and in many the effects tend to wear off after a time" Where did you find this? I don't think I find it in this thread, maybe I missed it? Already tried niacin and it works for the part after orgasm, but I still have problems overall and I think it's related to dopamine which is the problem this "cure" is trying to fix, am I right?
Whatever, I will just try it and see how it works.
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Yeah I know it's no known cure. I'm referring to the one in this thread. I wanted to know if that's the one people are using or if it's changed. Probably not. "Vitamin B Complex works for some, makes it worse for others, and in many the effects tend to wear off after a time." "and in many the effects tend to wear off after a time" Where did you find this? I don't think I find it in this thread, maybe I missed it? Already tried niacin and it works for the part after orgasm, but I still have problems overall and I think it's related to dopamine which is the problem this "cure" is trying to fix, am I right?
Whatever, I will just try it and see how it works.
If you follow the various B Complex threads, you tend to find that they have to be constantly adjusted. And some have mentioned that while it worked initially, with time (2, 3 weeks) it seemed to wear off. One can expect that you have to tweak a program, but it never seemed to end. That usually happens when you are chasing the symptoms rather than the cause. It IS complex of course. and again everyone is different. When I did the B Complex, my sex was better, I had better staying power and was basically hornier, but my POIS was a fair bit worse. My "protection" went from 80% - 90% to 20%.
I never did try without niacin though as Nightingale did in the first post of this thread... so I don't know if that had something to do with it, and to tell you the truth, I didn't really follow the regime to the letter either.
There is more on the B Complex theories throughout the forum. Dopamine and serotinine are definitely involved. search B-Complex in this forum or look up posts by Kurtosis, Nightingale and others that are "perscribers".
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Have read through a lot of the thread. I have 2 questions: Shall I go for the cure that's mentioned in the start or has anything changed? And I also find this about Ginkgo: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/29/new-doubts-about-ginkgo-biloba/?ref=health - What do you say about this?
EDIT: 1 more actually. What do you say about green tea? Good or bad?
No, the majority of evidence shows ginkgo is good stuff. From your link: "In the new ginkgo study, mice were given up to 2,000 milligrams of extract per kilogram of body weight, or just over 900 milligrams per pound of body weight, five times a week" - this is an insane dose.
From wiki: "Ginkgo supplements are usually taken in the range of 40-200 mg per day. In 2010, a meta-analysis of clinical trials has shown Ginkgo to be moderately effective in improving cognition in dementia patients[39]"
Personally I find that huperzine works better for cognition, which also has good scientific evidence backing it up. Kurtosis found that ginkgo worked better for him.
I've been drinking green tea almost every day for the past 2 years or so and have had only positive effects although I think it mainly just potentiates fenugreek for me.
I took a highly bio-available b-complex for a while and it helped a bit with some physical pois symptoms, but it doesn't compare to my main treatments.
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I've been dealing with POIS for close to ten years. I basically gave up on trying to find an answer and after taking different supplements on and off. After a few years of not trying anything I decided to start messing around with supplements. After two weeks I'm really seeing an improvement.
I started:
Magnesium glycinate
Vitamin D
Zinc
Lions Mane mushroom
A B vitamin complex
A pro biotic
Potassium
A Men's daily vitamin
Big doses of Vitamin C
CBD
I still deal with the depression, although I believe that is related to other things. But I FEEL a lot better. Last year this time I would have serious aches and pains after just one orgasm. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
The key here is finding what works for you. It might take some experimenting but for me, supplementing really does help. Good luck!
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congradulations! how much do you relieve?
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Please could you specify how much you are taking for each supplement, CBD specifically. is it THC in your CBD?
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It's worth trying just the CBD because I think it's the one that's working.