Vitamin supplementation WORKS - start taking them!

[Daveman]

I wanted to post an update on my progress. 

I've been taking Kurtosis' method for roughly 6 weeks.  While I was admittedly skeptical at first, the improvement to date has been significant.  This definitely works, but it takes time.  As my doctor told me at the 5 week point, it takes a long time for the body to refill dopamine/catecholamine levels that are as low as ours.  Within 5 weeks of usage, I had merely primed the pumps, and she estimated I might be 25% better.

I'm one of the POISers with constant pois.  The only benefit of this is that I can evaluate my pois on a day-to-day basis.  It took about 3-4 weeks before I noticed ANY improvement, but I was still concerned that slight improvement was just placebo as it was so minimal.  I'm finally confident to say that I feel much better than any 'placebo' could provide.  I'm excited for what the next 6 weeks holds. 

If you haven't begun taking all the vitamins Kurtosis recommends, now's a good time to start.  And they're just vitamins, so if you're on anti-depressants or any other drugs, you can keep that going.  Probably ask your doctor just to be safe but my doctor was okay with me taking these vitamins at the same time as my wellbutrin. 

which one are you taking exactly.   

Good for you CP / CC!

Let's hope that the next 6 wks brings you close to normal!!. Wouldn't THAT be something!

[kurtosis]

I take the vitamins every day, and the dopamine deficiency theory makes a lot of sense the more I think about it. Maybe the theory could explain why some of us feel terrible after taking a hot shower or after other activities that usually aren't associated with causing POIS. But I still wonder why desensitization or surgery seems to work for some of us. Maybe dopamine deficiency is an indirect effect from some allergic reaction. I guess that's exactly why research is key to the cure.

Or even possible that both fluctuations in neurotransmitter levels and the allergic reaction is an indirect effect of an autoimmune illness that prevents proper absorption of proteins used to synthesise neurotransmitters and/or a a hormonal synthesis issue that may affect our pituitary glands. There are many possibilities and lots of illnesses that appear similar if the symptoms of brain fog and fatigue are considered. There are recognised illnesses where it's still not determined what causes them so it might take a while to get to the bottom of this even when research starts.

By the way, are you taking the ginkgo? I'm taking 240mg on the day of an O and the following day. 120 is my maintenance dose. My supplement seems to have gotu kola / brahmi (centella asiatica) and ginseng in there also but ginkgo has made the biggest difference.

[haidcat]

Assuming that the low dopamine/high noradrenaline theory is correct. How do you guys think it explains muscle weakness? Does low dopamine cause muscle weakness? Whats the biochemistry behind that mechanism?

The only thing Ive come up with is that in parkinsons, muscle weakness results because dopamine is a crucial neurotransmittor in breaking inhibitory mechanisms on voluntary movement. But if POIS is causing muscle weakness/slowness then that means our dopamine in the motor cortex is lowered, something I would expect only in parkinsons, but who knows...

[haidcat]

For anybody trying to increase dopamine through supplementation I found a great website that lays it out very well. Essentially it says Tyrosine supplementation, plus activated b vitamins, plus certain other vitmains/mineral are key to increase dopamine. The details are here I encourage you guys to read all the parts if you dont already know the info.
This is part 4 of the dudes post, scroll down and ull see a list of the links for the other three parts:
http://adhd-treatment-options.blogspot.com/2010/02/does-tyrosine-for-adhd-actually-work-a.html

[haidcat]

For the people who do not want to read that articles heres the summary list of what to take to increase dopamine levels:
Tyrosine-------> L-dopa:
1. 500-1500 mg of tyrosine supplements per day
2. Iron
3. Magnesium
4. Zinc
5. Vitamin C

L-dopa--------> dopamine
1. Activated B6( Either taked already activated b-complex from NOW foods, or take a good quality normal B-complex and zinc, because zinc is needed to activated B-6)
2. Avoid high levels of tryptophan(obviously tryptophan is necessary for serotonin, so its  a key amino acid, but too much of it blocks dopamine production)

[Daveman]

For the people who do not want to read that articles heres the summary list of what to take to increase dopamine levels:
Tyrosine-------> L-dopa:
1. 500-1500 mg of tyrosine supplements per day
2. Iron
3. Magnesium
4. Zinc
5. Vitamin C

L-dopa--------> dopamine
1. Activated B6( Either taked already activated b-complex from NOW foods, or take a good quality normal B-complex and zinc, because zinc is needed to activated B-6)
2. Avoid high levels of tryptophan(obviously tryptophan is necessary for serotonin, so its  a key amino acid, but too much of it blocks dopamine production)

Sounds prettty much like what we're doing!

All we need now is to find out WHY our levels are so out of whack!

[kurtosis]

For the people who do not want to read that articles heres the summary list of what to take to increase dopamine levels:
Tyrosine-------> L-dopa:
1. 500-1500 mg of tyrosine supplements per day
2. Iron
3. Magnesium
4. Zinc
5. Vitamin C

L-dopa--------> dopamine
1. Activated B6( Either taked already activated b-complex from NOW foods, or take a good quality normal B-complex and zinc, because zinc is needed to activated B-6)
2. Avoid high levels of tryptophan(obviously tryptophan is necessary for serotonin, so its  a key amino acid, but too much of it blocks dopamine production)

To make it really simple, if you're taking the now b complex, it has all the b's including active b6 (p5p), iron and vitamin c. I find another 500mg of vit c helps.
But it's really curious how much the ginkgo helps. As my pois has moved from being problematic to effectively small blips I've noticed that my circulation appears to be improving. Some varicose veins are reduced and my hands are warmer in the morning. The gotu kola may be useful in this respect also. I noticed that it was in another supplement that someone reported success with. There's a high dose b + ginkgo + brahmi supplement made by a company called swisse.

I think the researchers who found that rat's sexual stamina was increased by ginkgo were on to something. Based on their analysis of rat hormone and neurotransmitter levels, they suggested that the reason was that the dopamine spike and reduction following an O and the release of prolactin was modified by ginkgo. The minimum dose they showed significant efficacy was 50mg/kg.

So to calculate this into human terms, for me it would be

Kurtosis Equivalent Dose : ~90kg * 50mg * (Rat Km = 6) / (Human Km = 36) = 750mg.  These body surface area calculations are just rules of thumb.
I don't plan on taking this much but if I look at my consumption in or around an O, I'm taking 480 over 2 days which appears to give significant release. Not so I want to have lots of O's, but so that I can still think and learn effectively right after an O. After the O days, I go back to 120mg.

I might stop all this for a few days and then try St John's Wort. I'm interested to see whether it works for me and what the differences are between that and my current ginkgo treatment. Curiosity & cats etc.

From reading some papers SJW may block norepinephrine synthesis from dopamine. So I'll take some tyrosine rich protein and see whether I feel calmer and what effect an O has.

Trouble is, I feel pretty calm right now

[kurtosis]

For the people who do not want to read that articles heres the summary list of what to take to increase dopamine levels:
Tyrosine-------> L-dopa:
1. 500-1500 mg of tyrosine supplements per day
2. Iron
3. Magnesium
4. Zinc
5. Vitamin C

L-dopa--------> dopamine
1. Activated B6( Either taked already activated b-complex from NOW foods, or take a good quality normal B-complex and zinc, because zinc is needed to activated B-6)
2. Avoid high levels of tryptophan(obviously tryptophan is necessary for serotonin, so its  a key amino acid, but too much of it blocks dopamine production)

Sounds prettty much like what we're doing!

All we need now is to find out WHY our levels are so out of whack!

It's not really a Why but a possibility is that we're suffering from a disorder where we're producing norepinephrine at a faster rate than we can produce dopamine. This is what happens when someone becomes extremely stressed and the resulting imbalance of norephinephrine to dopamine produces cognition problems along with heightened senses and a resulting increased distractibility. There are several disorders where this happens but like POTS, there are multiple problems that can produce the symptoms.
There is a hormonal link here. Progesterone blocks glutamate receptors. There may be a link between an oversensitivity to MSG and an inability to create progesterone efficiently. Also testosterone reduces ACTH release and therefore reduces norepinphrine and adrenaline levels produced as a result of stress.
This may be why testosterone treatment works for Demo. I notice that other posters have talked about acne which could also result from hormonal imbalance.
As I said before, my experience is that supplementary pregnenolone (the micronised lipid matrix variety) reduced my POIS hugely and showed an effect within hours. 

Under this hypothesis, different treatments may work if their net result is to 1) reduce cortisol 2) reduce norepinephrine synthesis 3) increase dopamine levels 4) reduce any background allergic reactions that may be triggering a stress response in the body. In short, anything that takes the body out of a stressed state. 

[Ccconfucius]

not questioning just curious, how do you know all this medical stuff and your profile says you are engineer.

my only acth test shows slightly high acth but my cortisol was normal so doctor didnt worry.

[kurtosis]

not questioning just curious, how do you know all this medical stuff and your profile says you are engineer.

my only acth test shows slightly high acth but my cortisol was normal so doctor didnt worry.

No problem in answering that question.

I studied chemistry as part of my engineering degree in college. Although I've been working on software, maths and stats since grad school. However, I used to teach maths modelling (among other things) and would often base examples on biological models. So when I talk about something like homeostasis it's from an "applied maths" viewpoint. It's something I've always been interested in, perhaps because I've always been trying to figure out what this POIS thing was and why an O seemed to affect me in a different way to other people. I noticed the symptoms becoming worse and it became more urgent to learn more about it.

If you have POIS then it's obvious what the most important research challenge is in your life. Figuring out POIS of course! 

[haidcat]

Ive been thinking for a while about the dopamine theory and why it occurs.
It seems the most proposed mechanism of POIS is that dopamine is converting to norepinephrine too quickly.
I had another idea as to what might be going on and a way to test it... What if the problem is not necessarily too little dopamine but too little dopamine receptors? The way this might work is that during orgasm, us POISers might have a massive surge in dopamine, more than the average person, during orgasm, which subsequently leads to an also massive surge in noradrenaline. This constant massive surge in dopamine could easily lead to a tolerance effect commonly seen in drugs, in effect reducing the number of dopamine receptors we have. This would make us feel like crap when not having sex/masturbating, because we dont have the high levels of dopamine throughout our normal day to day lives to compensate for the lowered dopamine receptors.

This is just a theory as to what is going on, and im sure its more likely that we just have naturally high levels of noradrenaline compared to normal people, but low dopamine receptors could be playing a factor too.

And the way to test this would be to obviously somehow increase dopamine receptors, this is done by such things as:
1. fasting 2. exercise 3. abstaining from addictive substances 4. abstaining from porn/sex 5. taking NMDA antagonists such as theanine, DXM( cough syrup, obviously it stands to reason not to abuse this

[kurtosis]

Ive been thinking for a while about the dopamine theory and why it occurs.
It seems the most proposed mechanism of POIS is that dopamine is converting to norepinephrine too quickly.
I had another idea as to what might be going on and a way to test it... What if the problem is not necessarily too little dopamine but too little dopamine receptors? The way this might work is that during orgasm, us POISers might have a massive surge in dopamine, more than the average person, during orgasm, which subsequently leads to an also massive surge in noradrenaline. This constant massive surge in dopamine could easily lead to a tolerance effect commonly seen in drugs, in effect reducing the number of dopamine receptors we have. This would make us feel like crap when not having sex/masturbating, because we dont have the high levels of dopamine throughout our normal day to day lives to compensate for the lowered dopamine receptors.

This is just a theory as to what is going on, and im sure its more likely that we just have naturally high levels of noradrenaline compared to normal people, but low dopamine receptors could be playing a factor too.

And the way to test this would be to obviously somehow increase dopamine receptors, this is done by such things as:
1. fasting 2. exercise 3. abstaining from addictive substances 4. abstaining from porn/sex 5. taking NMDA antagonists such as theanine, DXM( cough syrup, obviously it stands to reason not to abuse this

Dopamine receptors will up and down regulate based on the amount of dopamine in our system. In a low dopamine state, we should have more receptors.
By the way, I noticed that I have some POTS like symptoms including dizziness when I stand up. I've realised these are being reduced by 240mg of ginkgo. I also noticed pregnenolone having a similar effect. However, without any "treatment" I have this dizziness and my hands are always cold.
This idea of a hyperadrenergic disorder is really growing on me It explains a lot of the obvious POIS symptoms and also little things like having restless legs, cold extremities and dizziness. Also why doctors automatically assume POIS is an anxiety disorder. Possibly because POIS sufferers present in an anxious and agitated state due to elevated norepinephrine.

The dizziness is something I never paid much attention to. I'm now wondering why but I've had such a range of problems that may be linked.

[Ccconfucius]

this is my problem with dopamine. When i used Aderrall/ritalin they dont do anything for me cognitve wise.  But i still feel very hyper and both affect my sleep. doesnt this mean dopamine is at play.

[haidcat]

CertainlyPOIS, I honestly think ur reaction to adderall has alot more to do with high levels of noradrenaline/adrenaline than it does with low dopamine. I get the exact same response to adderall. Actually when I take adderall my heart races so fast and pumps so hard there were times I thought I was going to die, plus I would pee an insane amount, all indication that noradrenaline/adrenaline are being dumped at a massive rate in the body.

This would make sense since Kurtosis and I have landed on the idea that this is a noradrenaline problem going on, it seems us POISers have too high levels of this stuff and orgasms wreak havoc on us because of this.

Another way to put it is this: our bodies can easily get triggered into a fight/flight response, which is why Kurtosis always mentions that alot of doctors treat POIS as an anxiety disorder. IF we want to get all medically technical having an easily triggered fight/flight response would actually be an anxiety problem, its just that for us it seems our anxiety gets triggered mainly just by orgasms, and is not our baseline personality.

Another interesting thing: Hyperadrenergic POTS is dealt with usually with two medications: 1. Clonidine(prevents the release of norepinephrine) and Mestinon(the prescription version of Huperzine A, which allows acetylcholine to stay around longer, and compete with the fight/flight mechanisms of norepinephrine/adrenaline).

I wish someone on here could get some CLonidine somehow and try it out, or some herbal equivalent. I have a heart condition and am seeing my doc pretty soon, im going to ask and see if I can get some.

[Daveman]

I have been taking B-Complex with C, not too high a dosage though, maybe a third of the Now complex dosage, and 500 mg of Vit C.

If there have been any differences (outside of placebo), they would be:

Slight tendency to be more affected by stress, digestion gets unbalanced(short lived, a day and a half) with stressful situations,
A rash on my arms has recently emerged, red itchy spots, and perhaps drier skin all round, but that may be from before.
Seems like my erectile stamina is a little better.

I still take around 150 to 200 mg niacin pre-orgasm. Usually at night. Don't sleep too well, but from the next day on I'm POIS basically free.

So the stamina seems to be the main improvement, if it is even related to the B-Complex, and my after orgasm POIS is about the same, although maybe don't
sleep as well post orgasm.

Granted my B-Complex dosage is fairly low.

[Ccconfucius]

CertainlyPOIS, I honestly think ur reaction to adderall has alot more to do with high levels of noradrenaline/adrenaline than it does with low dopamine. I get the exact same response to adderall. Actually when I take adderall my heart races so fast and pumps so hard there were times I thought I was going to die, plus I would pee an insane amount, all indication that noradrenaline/adrenaline are being dumped at a massive rate in the body.

This would make sense since Kurtosis and I have landed on the idea that this is a noradrenaline problem going on, it seems us POISers have too high levels of this stuff and orgasms wreak havoc on us because of this.

Another way to put it is this: our bodies can easily get triggered into a fight/flight response, which is why Kurtosis always mentions that alot of doctors treat POIS as an anxiety disorder. IF we want to get all medically technical having an easily triggered fight/flight response would actually be an anxiety problem, its just that for us it seems our anxiety gets triggered mainly just by orgasms, and is not our baseline personality.

Another interesting thing: Hyperadrenergic POTS is dealt with usually with two medications: 1. Clonidine(prevents the release of norepinephrine) and Mestinon(the prescription version of Huperzine A, which allows acetylcholine to stay around longer, and compete with the fight/flight mechanisms of norepinephrine/adrenaline).

I wish someone on here could get some CLonidine somehow and try it out, or some herbal equivalent. I have a heart condition and am seeing my doc pretty soon, im going to ask and see if I can get some.

I also get fast heart beat, i just thought that was normal since it contains lots of dopmine. I also dont get any results from other stimulants including caffeine just all the negative cant sleep effects, are you like that to.

[haidcat]

Yes, with caffeine i get no positives at all. I get fast heart beat, pee alot, tremor, anxiety, and actually get more tired after drinking it, tired but no sleepy, thats the key. I feel like thats because i already have high noradrenaline and the caffeine makes it worse.
Interestingly, I can handle nicotine better than caffeine, probably because of its parasympathetic stimulation it provides to counter the fight/flight response.

[kurtosis]

CertainlyPOIS, I honestly think ur reaction to adderall has alot more to do with high levels of noradrenaline/adrenaline than it does with low dopamine. I get the exact same response to adderall. Actually when I take adderall my heart races so fast and pumps so hard there were times I thought I was going to die, plus I would pee an insane amount, all indication that noradrenaline/adrenaline are being dumped at a massive rate in the body.

This would make sense since Kurtosis and I have landed on the idea that this is a noradrenaline problem going on, it seems us POISers have too high levels of this stuff and orgasms wreak havoc on us because of this.

Another way to put it is this: our bodies can easily get triggered into a fight/flight response, which is why Kurtosis always mentions that alot of doctors treat POIS as an anxiety disorder. IF we want to get all medically technical having an easily triggered fight/flight response would actually be an anxiety problem, its just that for us it seems our anxiety gets triggered mainly just by orgasms, and is not our baseline personality.

Another interesting thing: Hyperadrenergic POTS is dealt with usually with two medications: 1. Clonidine(prevents the release of norepinephrine) and Mestinon(the prescription version of Huperzine A, which allows acetylcholine to stay around longer, and compete with the fight/flight mechanisms of norepinephrine/adrenaline).

I wish someone on here could get some CLonidine somehow and try it out, or some herbal equivalent. I have a heart condition and am seeing my doc pretty soon, im going to ask and see if I can get some.

Will be interesting to see if you could get clonidine. I was speaking with B_Daniel about it as an easier alternative to the "Kurtosis Cocktail" which walks a bit of a tightrope between too much and too little dopamine raw materials on a daily basis. If you take too much then you increase norephinephrine too much with bad results.

[kurtosis]

this is my problem with dopamine. When i used Aderrall/ritalin they dont do anything for me cognitve wise.  But i still feel very hyper and both affect my sleep. doesnt this mean dopamine is at play.

I was prescribed adderrall and it made me feel like I was having a heart attack.  It was just too stimulating and I don't believe it was addressing whatever problem was causing POIS. Caffeine doesn't work for me either unless it's accompanied by taurine, theanine or both. A cup of coffee makes me feel like crap. Some red bull or equivalent energy drink (but not too much) works pretty well. I chalk this up to theanine and taurine which have a calming effect.

[kurtosis]

I have been taking B-Complex with C, not too high a dosage though, maybe a third of the Now complex dosage, and 500 mg of Vit C.

If there have been any differences (outside of placebo), they would be:

Slight tendency to be more affected by stress, digestion gets unbalanced(short lived, a day and a half) with stressful situations,
A rash on my arms has recently emerged, red itchy spots, and perhaps drier skin all round, but that may be from before.
Seems like my erectile stamina is a little better.

I still take around 150 to 200 mg niacin pre-orgasm. Usually at night. Don't sleep too well, but from the next day on I'm POIS basically free.

So the stamina seems to be the main improvement, if it is even related to the B-Complex, and my after orgasm POIS is about the same, although maybe don't
sleep as well post orgasm.

Granted my B-Complex dosage is fairly low.

Any ginkgo?