Vitamin supplementation WORKS - start taking them!

[Nightingale]

IT WORKS.

That in short is the message I am saying today about the vitamin regimin that our friend *kurtosis* has been working on and taking himself.  After taking the supplements he has been recommending for 2-3 weeks, I decided to have an orgasm *without niacin* and there were VIRTUALLY NO SYMPTOMS.  I'd say I was safely 90 to 95% better then after an "O" without any treatment!

I've been moving more towards the vitamin deficiency/absorption hypothesis after trying to figure out why the niacin flush helps us, and kurtosis has provided a coherent theory and treatment that works for me.  You should try it and see if it works for you.

kurtosis and myself both believe that the post-orgasm symptoms are not the only symptoms we face from this issue, and that there might be more benefit in the future with continued use of these vitamins/herbs.  I will be continuing my supplementation and I will be happy to answer more about this to anyone interested!

Here is a post by kurtosis detailing what he (and now me) is taking:

Anyway, for the first time in 20 years, I have no noticeable POIS symptoms. I'm taking Gingko, Huperzine and a high-strength b complex with active co-enzymes of b12 and b6. I'm also taking krill oil. The Huperzine seems to have sorted out the eye problem. I didn't take it yesterday morning and the eye control problem was back. 200mcg of it and within 10 minutes it's fixed and my memory is greatly improved. I've had 4 O's in a week with no diminishment in cognitive performance.

kurtosis, I am following your strategy.  I have bought all the supplements you have mentioned and have begun taking them mostly with the doses suggested by the labels.  You've mentioned that you take a more that the suggested dose, saying you take probably twice what I do.

Could you list the doses of each specific supplement/herb/vitamin that you are taking, so that I can replicate your regimen?  I don't have access to the same B-complexes you do, so I'd love to know the doses of the particular items of importance in those pills.  You also mention "active co-enzymes" of b6 and b12, and I dont know what those are.  I have been supplementing b6 and b12 separately in addition to taking a B-complex.  Otherwise I have all the other items you'v mentioned you use

I saw you have had great success in reducing your mental symptoms and I would love to have the same results!

Thanks!

Coenzymated b vitamins include methylcobalamin (active b12) and pyramidal 5 phosphate (p5p, active b6). These are available in a b complex from solgar and Now Foods. The solgar one has some non-active form of the vitamins. The Now Foods one doesn't. I find the active coenzymated forms easier to take. With the non-coenzymated forms I sometimes feel a bit nauseous after taking them.
I'm only taking 200mcg of Huperzine A once a day and 90mg of ginkgo twice and 3 times on alternate days (so 180mg some days and 270 others).

I also take vitamin c (1g / day) and krill oil (2 caps / day). I take spirulina also but I tend to put it in smoothies or drink it and it's really only if I didn't get a lot of protein that day. I always take spirulina after an O. The protein seems to help me recover.


Ages ago, I remember taking something called "BrainQuick" which contained huperzine, vinpocetine, b vitamins and some amino acids. It definitely had a beneficial effect but it was 1) expensive 2) I needed quite a lot of it and 3) the precise amount of each of the nutrients was not specified. I wish someone would produce an exact huperzine, ginkgo, coenzymated b + protein supplement so I could just take one thing and not be carting lots of pills around with me. I've even considered getting a commercial lab to formulate something.

Apart from that, I don't know what to say. I feel much better. Is it having any affect at all?

[Daveman]

That sounds great, if not a little complicated!

I've been following his activity over there, but we don't support that forum any more. It's a shame he doesn't want to come over here.

Demo has spent a lot of time end effort, 5 yrs, of very hard sweat and tears to bring together the people and atmosphere where these kinds of things
can prosper.

Now we are over here!

Do you get the most "complicated elements" on line, like the Now Foods brand.

So it's the following:
200 mcg Huperzine A (Which brand and where do you get it)
1 high strength B complex form Now Foods (Is there a particular size, dose, product name)
2 caps krill oil (Brand or source?)
1 g vitamin C
180 mg ginko (extra 90 mg every other day)
1 spirulina (capsule? teaspoon? brand and source??)
and an extra spirulina after "O".

Is that right?
Can you fill in the blanks. We need to make it easier for regular brainfogged POISers to try this regimine.

There is a lot to do.

Does it work for everyone?
Are there side effects?
Do you have to monitor liver?
Can the formula be tweaked, what are the most important items in case you can't get everything?
I live in Chile others live in other countries where it may be difficult to get all this stuff.
I have trouble finding NIACIN here. I have to import it, and even then customs has given me a hard time.
There are others in the same condition.

Thank you very much Nightingale. You are a good friend of the POIS effort.

[Prancer]

Thank you Daveman for putting it in standard recipe format. It makes it more organized. I agree it was a little complicated to me at first. I also wonder about some of the details too, like the exact dose of B complex and exactly when everything is taken (daily I guess). It's great news that it's been working for a few people! I plan to try this anti-POIS recipe too as soon as I understand more of the details. Nice job coming up with this formula kurtosis and for trying it out Nightingale.

[Nightingale]

Do you get the most "complicated elements" on line, like the Now Foods brand.

Not yet.  I just ordered it myself.  I have been taking a "normal" B-complex I found at my local store.  It says to take 1 a day, I take 2 in the morning

So it's the following:
200 mcg Huperzine A (Which brand and where do you get it)
1 high strength B complex form Now Foods (Is there a particular size, dose, product name)
2 caps krill oil (Brand or source?)
1 g vitamin C
180 mg ginko (extra 90 mg every other day)
1 spirulina (capsule? teaspoon? brand and source??)
and an extra spirulina after "O".

Huperzine A is a GNC brand (GNC is a major supplement chain store in the USA)
Now Foods CO-ENZYME B-COMPLEX (from Amazon.com) - but I think most B-complexes will work, just take 2x the suggested amount
1000mg of Neptune Krill Oil (for me 2 capsules) - Neptune is NOT the brand it is the type of Krill!  My brand is also GNC
1g vit C - from any quality brand i guess
120mg Ginko Biloba GNC brand- 1 a day, then 2 a day, then 1...  If you are on anti-depressants you NEED to watch how you feel on this, can interact
Spirulina is new for me so I'm not sure how crucial it is for POIS benefit - I take 1 teaspoon of Nutrex Spirulina Pacifica, but I'd recommend tablets instead!

These were missed but are IMPORTANT:
Magnesium (as citrate) 500mg a day - Nature's Way brand
Zinc Chelate (basically just Zinc in an amino form) 30mg a day - Nature's Way brand
Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxine Hydrochloride) 200mg a day - GNC brand
Vitamin B12 (as cyanocobalamin) ~2000 mcg a day - GNC brand

According to kurtosis' theory, vitamin B6 is the main issue.  If you are concerned about expenses, at least start taking B6.  B12 is important for energy.  I'd also make sure to take Magnesium and Zinc.

I don't know how much kurtosis' and my regimen are as far as doses, he hinted at taking more than me.  I'd love for him to compare here for us, so i'll try to get him to.

Are there side effects?
Do you have to monitor liver?

I have not heard kurtosis mention liver monitoring.

Can the formula be tweaked, what are the most important items in case you can't get everything?
I live in Chile others live in other countries where it may be difficult to get all this stuff.
I have trouble finding NIACIN here. I have to import it, and even then customs has given me a hard time.
There are others in the same condition.

These questions would be best directed to kurtosis.  I don't fully understand his reasons for picking all these vitamins.

Thank you very much Nightingale. You are a good friend of the POIS effort.

You are SO welcome.  All the best

[Nightingale]

A helpful post from kurtosis on NSF:

I know! Kurtosis, you rock for figuring that recipe out! I'm anxious to try it out and am ordering the ingredients now. I hope it works for me and for many others, but one never knows because everyone's different. Still gonna try out it though. Niacin doesn't work that well for me, even at 600mg.

I can't promise it will work guys. However, can I suggest 2 things if you're going to go down this route.
1) don't give up on the supplements after a few days. If you buy them, take each for the month or so of capsules in the bottle (as directed) and don't expect an overnight cure.
2) get some aerobic exercise (long walks is enough) and try to calm some of your anxiety about POIS. I know this is incredibly difficult but you have give your brain some time to heal and cortisol from anxiety and stress will, in itself, prevent you from getting over POIS.

The stress of knowing that you have an illness that's affecting your cognitive ability will _itself_ harm you. You have to somehow deal with it and exercise like brisk walking can help reduce your cortisol levels. 

[demografx]

Try to post here, guys!

Thanks!!

Demo

[Starsky]

Vitamin B6 is the most important coenzym for dopamine production. So if you are taking large doses it works like a stimulant. High dose vitamin therapy is not a cure, its just masking the effects of POIS.

[Daveman]

Well, it may be masking or it could be replacing an important part in a faulty chain.

We don't really know!

We don't really know!

Research required!

[kurtosis]

Try to post here, guys!

Thanks!!

Demo

OK, will do. I'm just taking the coenzymated b complex from Now. I don't take separate b12.
I take the spirulina as a source of protein to help in the synthesis of catecholamines and to help me improve my level of physical fitness and strength.

As for Starsky's comment that this is just masking the effects of POIS, I don't know what that means.
We do not know what POIS is yet so it's impossible to say whether something is masking or treating its effects. For example, if someone is being benefitted by taking welbutrin then I'd say, keep taking it. While we're figuring out the exactly pathology of the illness we also need to be functional.

If POIS is an illness which affects metabolism of certain vitamins then taking those vitamins is a viable treatment rather than merely masking it.

[Starsky]

So you dont take any additional b complex, b12, b6. Just this coenzyme b complex? How much of it?

[kurtosis]

Try to post here, guys!

Thanks!!

Demo

OK, will do. I'm just taking the coenzymated b complex from Now. I don't take separate b12.
I take the spirulina as a source of protein to help in the synthesis of catecholamines and to help me improve my level of physical fitness and strength.

As for Starsky's comment that this is just masking the effects of POIS, I don't know what that means.
We do not know what POIS is yet so it's impossible to say whether something is masking or treating its effects. For example, if someone is being benefitted by taking welbutrin then I'd say, keep taking it. While we're figuring out the exactly pathology of the illness we also need to be functional.

If POIS is an illness which affects metabolism of certain vitamins then taking those vitamins is a viable treatment rather than merely masking it.

By the way, I didn't even know this was being discussed here until today. Much of the posts about this on the NSF have come from other people (Nightingale and B_Daniel) who are responding to conversations I"m having with them over messages. These weren't messages I initiated so I'm actually just trying to be helpful.

I really am very busy guys. There's no calculated attempt to snub poiscenter  and no offence intended towards Daveman or Demografx

I disagree with the NSF prohibition on us raising funds but I still think it's an interesting forum and I read other NSF threads.

So what exactly am I taking?

Morning:
- now foods coenzymated complex (1 capsule)
- 2 capsules of spirulina (synergy but I've used other brands). If I'm having a high protein breakfast then I don't necessarily take these.

- 200mcg of huperzine A (every 2nd day).
- 1000mg of vitamin C. (I take this every day).
- 60mg of Ginkgo. (every day)

Afternoon:
- 120mg of Ginkgo (every day)
- some krill oil (just 1 capsule)

Night:
- zinc and magnesium with another Now b complex tablet (every 2nd day)

If I have an O then I'll take the zinc & magnesium that night, even if it's out of sequence. I'll also take 2 spirulina.

In the first week of this new supplementation, I tried ZMA instead of the coenzyme at night. I got the same results. I went to sleep faster, woke up feeling quite refreshed and remembered my dreams. I had none of the memory holes I've had up until a few weeks ago.

I'm deliberately trying to stay within the supplement manufacturers guidelines. Since I started this, my memory has improved dramatically, towards where it was about 10 years ago. I had a blood test last week and everything was "fine". My doctor doesn't have  a problem with me taking the ginkgo, he's more curious about the Huperzine. However, I have a brother in law in a high pressure job who has been taking it on and off for years with no negative effects. He's very successful and swears by it to keep his memory sharp.

I'm following up why this is having such an beneficial effect on my vision and it's possible i may have a mild form of MG. This is something I'm getting checked.

Honestly though, the b-vitamins without the ginkgo and huperzine gave me more energy (as expected, I understand the stimulating effect of b6 and b12) but the 2 herbs have made all the difference. I'm actually remembering things that I've learned while in POIS but that seemed lost to me. It's very odd and quite pleasant.

When I'm finished the bottles of supplements I have I'm going to try and make up a custom supplement online so I can just take one thing in the morning and afternoon with no complicated sequence of steps to remember and just the one bottle to bring with me when I travel. Well, maybe 2 as you couldn't mix krill oil with this other stuff without producing something rotten.

[kurtosis]

So you dont take any additional b complex, b12, b6. Just this coenzyme b complex? How much of it?

Yes. I've taken methylcobalamin separately before I got this all-in-one coenzyme.

Here's the ingredients list of the Now coenzyme complex. There's plenty active form b12 in there, particularly on the days when I take 2 tablets - the 2nd at night with zinc + magnesium.

--
Vitamin C (from Magnesium Ascorbate)      60 mg      100% 
Vitamin B-1 (from Thiamine HCl and Cocarboxylase)      50 mg      3330% 
Riboflavin (as Riboflavin and from Riboflavin-5 Phosphate Sodium)      50 mg      2940% 
Vitamin B-3 (from Inositol Hexanicotinate and NAD)      50 mg      250% 
Vitamin B-6 (from Pyridoxine HCl and P-5-P Monohydrate)      50 mg      2500% 
Folate (as Folic Acid)      400 mcg      100% 
Vitamin B-12 (as Methylcobalamin and Dibencoside)      250 mcg      4170% 
Biotin      300 mcg      100% 
Vitamin B-5 (from Calcium d-Pantothenate and Pantethine)      50 mg      500% 
Betaine      50 mg      ? 
Alpha Lipoic Acid      50 mg      ? 
Choline (from Choline Bitartrate)      25 mg      ? 
PABA (Para-aminobenzoic Acid)      25 mg      ? 
Inositol (from Inositol Hexanicotinate and Hexaphosphate)      15 mg      ? 
CoQ10 (Coenzyme Q10)      500 mcg      ? 

I have other vasodilators such as vinpocetine and I may compare these versus the ginkgo but I'm very happy with the ginkgo right now.

[Nightingale]

kurtosis!  Thanks for coming by and writing all this given your busy schedule.  Your experience is an important resource that we should all take advantage of AND be grateful for.  I'd totally sent you a present for helping me feel as good as I have been lately!

Vitamin B6 is the most important coenzym for dopamine production. So if you are taking large doses it works like a stimulant. High dose vitamin therapy is not a cure, its just masking the effects of POIS.

This is pretty much bogus.  Starsky, I understand you are really serious about getting better, but just because something doesn't agree with your plan for castration doesn't mean you should be so negative about an alternative solution... This vitiman approach is making people feel better, and it's been done by many people over long periods of time.  Castration is a pretty terrible solution, I'm sorry you've felt so bad as to want to do it.  I hope you reconsider...

[demografx]

kurtosis, thanks for posting!

[Animus]

Try to post here, guys!

Thanks!!

Demo

OK, will do. I'm just taking the coenzymated b complex from Now. I don't take separate b12.
I take the spirulina as a source of protein to help in the synthesis of catecholamines and to help me improve my level of physical fitness and strength.

As for Starsky's comment that this is just masking the effects of POIS, I don't know what that means.
We do not know what POIS is yet so it's impossible to say whether something is masking or treating its effects. For example, if someone is being benefitted by taking welbutrin then I'd say, keep taking it. While we're figuring out the exactly pathology of the illness we also need to be functional.

If POIS is an illness which affects metabolism of certain vitamins then taking those vitamins is a viable treatment rather than merely masking it.

By the way, I didn't even know this was being discussed here until today. Much of the posts about this on the NSF have come from other people (Nightingale and B_Daniel) who are responding to conversations I"m having with them over messages. These weren't messages I initiated so I'm actually just trying to be helpful.

I really am very busy guys. There's no calculated attempt to snub poiscenter  and no offence intended towards Daveman or Demografx

I disagree with the NSF prohibition on us raising funds but I still think it's an interesting forum and I read other NSF threads.

So what exactly am I taking?

Morning:
- now foods coenzymated complex (1 capsule)
- 2 capsules of spirulina (synergy but I've used other brands). If I'm having a high protein breakfast then I don't necessarily take these.

- 200mcg of huperzine A (every 2nd day).
- 1000mg of vitamin C. (I take this every day).
- 60mg of Ginkgo. (every day)

Afternoon:
- 120mg of Ginkgo (every day)
- some krill oil (just 1 capsule)

Night:
- zinc and magnesium with another Now b complex tablet (every 2nd day)

If I have an O then I'll take the zinc & magnesium that night, even if it's out of sequence. I'll also take 2 spirulina.

In the first week of this new supplementation, I tried ZMA instead of the coenzyme at night. I got the same results. I went to sleep faster, woke up feeling quite refreshed and remembered my dreams. I had none of the memory holes I've had up until a few weeks ago.

I'm deliberately trying to stay within the supplement manufacturers guidelines. Since I started this, my memory has improved dramatically, towards where it was about 10 years ago. I had a blood test last week and everything was "fine". My doctor doesn't have  a problem with me taking the ginkgo, he's more curious about the Huperzine. However, I have a brother in law in a high pressure job who has been taking it on and off for years with no negative effects. He's very successful and swears by it to keep his memory sharp.

I'm following up why this is having such an beneficial effect on my vision and it's possible i may have a mild form of MG. This is something I'm getting checked.

Honestly though, the b-vitamins without the ginkgo and huperzine gave me more energy (as expected, I understand the stimulating effect of b6 and b12) but the 2 herbs have made all the difference. I'm actually remembering things that I've learned while in POIS but that seemed lost to me. It's very odd and quite pleasant.

When I'm finished the bottles of supplements I have I'm going to try and make up a custom supplement online so I can just take one thing in the morning and afternoon with no complicated sequence of steps to remember and just the one bottle to bring with me when I travel. Well, maybe 2 as you couldn't mix krill oil with this other stuff without producing something rotten.

This is fantastic! and could help a lot of people!.. it seems very promising. I haven't tried any of the above because I don't have any POIS now, but I like the approach because it is a safe and accessible solution.

These supplements could possibly be replenishing what is required or heavily used in the regeneration process after orgasm.  I would like to think this is the other side of the coin for the Animus solution...! Instead of stopping the semen regeneration process as I did, you might be aiding the semen regeneration process... and thereby preventing the POIS symptoms, while retaining your complete function.  Anyway, I would totally try this if I had POIS...  Good luck in getting the recipe right and your continued work... best regards! Animus

[bananas]

Hi there

Just thought I should make my first post as I am starting the "Kurtosis" recipe. Hopefully my feedback will help. I'm open minded about it and will report my experiences, allowing for POIS episodes...

I am a "lurker" who has been greatly helped by you all. Last year I managed to get a girlfriend for the first time in 9 years, and we're nearly at our first anniversary! I put this down to garlic and fenugreek. However it gave minimal improvement, and POIS was still quite bad, especially as abstinence is no longer an option... I believe Niacin worked recently for me, but our sex life is too spontaneous to use it effectively. Hence my interest in the recipe. Fingers crossed, without getting my hopes up too much!

You are an amazing group of people. I hope I can contribute to the fund soon.

Bananas

[Daveman]

Thanks for your support Animus.

As you say, this information could be vital in future development for a final path toward the end of POIS.

Strangly enough, it was Starsky's post ALMOST A YEAR AGO (man time flies)
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=197.msg2319#msg2319

that personally started me in the direction of looking at the role of B vitamins in the POIS process. But it was too
complex for me and for many it seems, it didn't really catch on as a potentially valid concept until Kurtosis with his
very good knowledge and troubleshooting skill headed in that direction and began to give it body.

In the end, with niacin working so well it was a fairly natural direction to go. Just too complex for the most of us.

Thanks Kurtosis for simplifying it.

[kurtosis]

Thanks for your support Animus.

As you say, this information could be vital in future development for a final path toward the end of POIS.

Strangly enough, it was Starsky's post ALMOST A YEAR AGO (man time flies)
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=197.msg2319#msg2319

that personally started me in the direction of looking at the role of B vitamins in the POIS process. But it was too
complex for me and for many it seems, it didn't really catch on as a potentially valid concept until Kurtosis with his
very good knowledge and troubleshooting skill headed in that direction and began to give it body.

In the end, with niacin working so well it was a fairly natural direction to go. Just too complex for the most of us.

Thanks Kurtosis for simplifying it.

That's fine Daveman. As I've said before, if it hadn't been for Starsky's post it may have taken me a lot longer to progress.
Again, I'd just like to reiterate what I said on the NSF. This may not work for everybody and it may not be a long term solution
BUT (this is an important BUT) after many years of POIS people should not expect an overnight and perfect cure where they just get better every day. Some care has to be given to the genuine anxiety that living with this condition has caused us. That means trying to reduce stress levels as too much cortisol will itself lead to cognitive impairment.

There's also the possibility that we're not all suffering from the same condition (the symptoms are all similar but there are important differences in terms of allergies, flu-like symptoms etc.) OR that some of us have other problems that need additional treatment.

Starsky, have you tried either testosterone patches or neurosteroids like pregnenolone before adopting your current approach? Both would have to be supervised by a doctor of course.

[Starsky]

No, I have no acces to testosterone patches. The only aviable form of testosterone are injections. Im going to try your vitamin regimen...

[demografx]

Testosterone gel is just as effective as patches. I considered gel, prefer the patches, no need to wait for drying upon application.

No access? It can be obtained anywhere.