Vitamin supplementation WORKS - start taking them!

[B_Daniel]

Bananas, I like the name.  And Starsky - you're on here!  Hi. 

Hey guys, just wanted to say that I'm 4 days into Kurtosis' treatment and I am definitely, definitely feeling better than usual.  As of now I'm only 4 days in and this is already marginally better than the Wellbutrin.  I'll keep you all posted on my progress. 

Nightingale, can we change the name of this thread to "Kurtosis Method - IT WORKS" or something along those lines.  It'll make it slightly easier for others to locate, and Kurtosis deserves all the credit in the world for this.

[kurtosis]

Bananas, I like the name.  And Starsky - you're on here!  Hi. 

Hey guys, just wanted to say that I'm 4 days into Kurtosis' treatment and I am definitely, definitely feeling better than usual.  As of now I'm only 4 days in and this is already marginally better than the Wellbutrin.  I'll keep you all posted on my progress. 

Nightingale, can we change the name of this thread to "Kurtosis Method - IT WORKS" or something along those lines.  It'll make it slightly easier for others to locate, and Kurtosis deserves all the credit in the world for this.

I don't like claiming credit for something that's partially down to Starsky and the biochemist he referenced in his post
B_Daniel, can you give me an idea of how much better you feel than before you started taking wellbutrin. As in, where where you and where are you now on a (very rough) 9 point scale of

1 - in POIS hell. constant Physical pain, unable to think or function, suicidal depression.
2 - very depressed but not suicidal, constant cognitive issues, flu like symptoms and some physical pain, difficulty function
3 - depressed, cognitive issues during POIS, weakness/flu during POIS, minimal physical pain, some difficulty functioning
4 - a bit depressed, cognitive issues for less than 1-2 days after O, minimal physical pain and weakness, difficulty functioning but most people wouldn't know it.
5 - neutral feeling, some POIS cognitive issues but able to function in day to day activities, mild flu like symptoms.
6 - optimistic, only mild cognitive issues, mild flu like symptoms for less than a day after an O, able to function
7 - optimistic, 1 of either mild flu or mild cognitive symptoms for a few hours after an O, able to function
8 - very positive outlook, POIS symptoms are difficult to detect anymore, cognitive abilities are normalised, functioning and planning for life after POIS.
9 - happy, cured, excelling. cognitive abilities appear to be actually enhanced.

These are very rough categories and the stats person in me knows they're leading. At worst my POIS was somewhere between 1 and 2 (say 1.5). Right now I'm somewhere between 7 and 8. If the trajectory continues I'd hope to reach 8 this month. At 9, someone would be so elated at being "cured" that they'd effectively think they were superman This would abate after a while.

If not, I have to rethink the treatment, which I'll do as I've deliberately held off using neurosteroids this time around and with ultimate flexibility to design a supplement I'd probably vary vasodilators to reduce the likelihood that any one stops working effectively.

[Daveman]

Bananas, I like the name.  And Starsky - you're on here!  Hi. 

Hey guys, just wanted to say that I'm 4 days into Kurtosis' treatment and I am definitely, definitely feeling better than usual.  As of now I'm only 4 days in and this is already marginally better than the Wellbutrin.  I'll keep you all posted on my progress. 

Nightingale, can we change the name of this thread to "Kurtosis Method - IT WORKS" or something along those lines.  It'll make it slightly easier for others to locate, and Kurtosis deserves all the credit in the world for this.

I don't like claiming credit for something that's partially down to Starsky and the biochemist he referenced in his post
B_Daniel, can you give me an idea of how much better you feel than before you started taking wellbutrin. As in, where where you and where are you now on a (very rough) 9 point scale of

1 - in POIS hell. constant Physical pain, unable to think or function, suicidal depression.
2 - very depressed but not suicidal, constant cognitive issues, flu like symptoms and some physical pain, difficulty function
3 - depressed, cognitive issues during POIS, weakness/flu during POIS, minimal physical pain, some difficulty functioning
4 - a bit depressed, cognitive issues for less than 1-2 days after O, minimal physical pain and weakness, difficulty functioning but most people wouldn't know it.
5 - neutral feeling, some POIS cognitive issues but able to function in day to day activities, mild flu like symptoms.
6 - optimistic, only mild cognitive issues, mild flu like symptoms for less than a day after an O, able to function
7 - optimistic, 1 of either mild flu or mild cognitive symptoms for a few hours after an O, able to function
8 - very positive outlook, POIS symptoms are difficult to detect anymore, cognitive abilities are normalised, functioning and planning for life after POIS.
9 - happy, cured, excelling. cognitive abilities appear to be actually enhanced.

These are very rough categories and the stats person in me knows they're leading. At worst my POIS was somewhere between 1 and 2 (say 1.5). Right now I'm somewhere between 7 and 8. If the trajectory continues I'd hope to reach 8 this month. At 9, someone would be so elated at being "cured" that they'd effectively think they were superman This would abate after a while.

If not, I have to rethink the treatment, which I'll do as I've deliberately held off using neurosteroids this time around and with ultimate flexibility to design a supplement I'd probably vary vasodilators to reduce the likelihood that any one stops working effectively.

All parts are important. I knew there had to be something with niacin, but had no clue what. Starsky’s post sparked something, but most of us still didn’t know what. Kurtosis, you can justifiably claim to have opened and matured greatly the development. That’s the good part about our group, where-ever its home is, it’s a group effort!

There’s still lots to do, and like Kurtosis says, we have to approach this with great caution…. We’ve all been let down before! But by God we’ve given the reasearches a great head start!!

[kurtosis]

All parts are important. I knew there had to be something with niacin, but had no clue what. Starsky’s post sparked something, but most of us still didn’t know what. Kurtosis, you can justifiably claim to have opened and matured greatly the development. That’s the good part about our group, where-ever its home is, it’s a group effort!

There’s still lots to do, and like Kurtosis says, we have to approach this with great caution…. We’ve all been let down before! But by God we’ve given the reasearches a great head start!!

Another point guys. Fenugreek, niacin and ginkgo all have something in common.
They're all vasodilators
- niacin mentioned here (specifically nicotinic acid which gives the famous flush) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasodilation
- fenugreek and ginkgo mentioned here http://home.caregroup.org/clinical/altmed/interactions/Herb_Groups/Vasodilator.htm
Interestingly huperzine and ginkgo together should have a synergistic increased hypotensive effect.

Has anybody had their blood pressure checked after having an O and/or have a history of hypertension in their family?
Does anyone have a blood pressure monitor at home?

[demografx]

 Please Click H E R E

[demografx]

Has anybody had their blood pressure checked after having an O and/or have a history of hypertension in their family?
Does anyone have a blood pressure monitor at home?

My high blood pressure is controlled by meds. Killed my father (no BP meds in the 60s-70's). So definite hypertension history.

I bought 2 BP monitors, returned both. Created too much anxiety, plus dubious readings at times.

[Daveman]

All parts are important. I knew there had to be something with niacin, but had no clue what. Starsky’s post sparked something, but most of us still didn’t know what. Kurtosis, you can justifiably claim to have opened and matured greatly the development. That’s the good part about our group, where-ever its home is, it’s a group effort!

There’s still lots to do, and like Kurtosis says, we have to approach this with great caution…. We’ve all been let down before! But by God we’ve given the reasearches a great head start!!

Another point guys. Fenugreek, niacin and ginkgo all have something in common.
They're all vasodilators
- niacin mentioned here (specifically nicotinic acid which gives the famous flush) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasodilation
- fenugreek and ginkgo mentioned here http://home.caregroup.org/clinical/altmed/interactions/Herb_Groups/Vasodilator.htm
Interestingly huperzine and ginkgo together should have a synergistic increased hypotensive effect.

Has anybody had their blood pressure checked after having an O and/or have a history of hypertension in their family?
Does anyone have a blood pressure monitor at home?

I have high blood pressure (controlled by medicine) but have noticed that even though I feel like I have higher pressure in POIS, it's actually lower.

My tests haven't been extensive, I've measured a couple of times in POIS when I thought my pressure felt high.

P.S. This before I was using niacin.

[Nightingale]

On the topic of hypertension, my family has a strong history of it.  My father is a cardiologist and he even has it.

I'm 26.  My blood pressure has been actually fantastic up until 2 years ago.  I would constantly get asked by nurses if I were an athlete, and I was, running distance in high school.  But 2 years ago I developed metabolic syndrome after being on all the psychiatric medication I take, so my pressure was not as stellar, but not too bad either.  I have lost weight and no longer have metabolic syndrome.  I had developed high triglyceride levels but those are now back to normal.

I am able to take my own blood pressure, so I'll have to remember to take it immediately after my next orgasm

[Daveman]

Take it at varying time throughout day 1 as well, or even for the first few days, maybe take notes.

Could be interesting.

If I have POIS again, I'll try to remember as well.

[Observer]

I´ve been following this thread closely and i want to tell you that Daniel(He is probably was one of the first ones who took a B1/B6/B12 vitamin complex) continues to experience an excellent relief! I think he is taking less and less of it - take this with a grain of salt, we should wait for him to explain his plan better (Be very careful with Hidroxil(B1/B6/B12 complex) since it can cause severe side effects if it is taken continuously atfter 2-3 weeks) and he has told me that he got the feeling that when he stops taking the complex(something that he plans to do very soon), he is not going to need it "anymore".

I am skeptic about this, but he seems to be very confident. I´ve asked him to come to this same thread to explain us his experience with better details.

[Daveman]

 "he got the feeling that when he stops taking the complex(something that he plans to do very soon), he is not going to need it "anymore". "

That's what I though about niacin....   NOT!

But since b12 is cumulative it may react that way for a while. And if he was right, we'd just all have to go out and celebrate.

[demografx]

 Please Click H E R E

[0002ppdnuos]

...
- now foods coenzymated complex (1 capsule)
- 2 capsules of spirulina (synergy but I've used other brands). If I'm having a high protein breakfast then I don't necessarily take these.

- 200mcg of huperzine A (every 2nd day).
- 1000mg of vitamin C. (I take this every day).
- 60mg of Ginkgo. (every day)

Afternoon:
- 120mg of Ginkgo (every day)
- some krill oil (just 1 capsule)

Night:
- zinc and magnesium with another Now b complex tablet (every 2nd day)
...

Kurtosis, please let me know the brands of them.
Thanks.

[kurtosis]

...
- now foods coenzymated complex (1 capsule)
- 2 capsules of spirulina (synergy but I've used other brands). If I'm having a high protein breakfast then I don't necessarily take these.

- 200mcg of huperzine A (every 2nd day).
- 1000mg of vitamin C. (I take this every day).
- 60mg of Ginkgo. (every day)

Afternoon:
- 120mg of Ginkgo (every day)
- some krill oil (just 1 capsule)

Night:
- zinc and magnesium with another Now b complex tablet (every 2nd day)
...

Kurtosis, please let me know the brands of them.
Thanks.

You can get pretty much everything from Now if you like, including the "Neptune Krill Oil". This might be useful as I can't find another manufacturer doing an equivalent coenzymated b complex and they're quite a large supplement manufacturer with their own labs.

This next bit is just an opinion and you can take it with a few pinches of salt! Some supplement companies are really just branding with the supplements manufactured and tested by 3rd parties. I'm a bit wary of this as they don't have control over the product quality and don't have the capacity to carry out their own research. It's important to recognise that pretty much anybody here could set themselves up as a supplement company in the morning and outsource the production of "Genius Powder" (or whatever fancy name) to a 3rd party anywhere around the world. The whole process may work beautifully but, if it doesn't, there's just a marketing company.

I get a bit more peace of mind knowing I'm buying stuff from a US owned and operated company that has a lot to lose if there was a problem with their quality. I also like solgar. Before you buy a cheap supplement online I'd do a bit of research to reassure yourself that you're buying from a manufacturer with their own lab.

Except the huperzine where I use source naturals. I've also tried swansons huperzine and that was fine too.
I know others used GNC brand ginkgo and that seemed to work fine also. Vogel do a good quality ginkgo.

[Egordon]

With regard to kurtosis's recipe it seems especially likely that the huperzine a is what's worked such wonders for his memory. I don't know if anyone's yet brought this up, but its got 2 things going for it: 1) it's a nootropic, which is a class of supplements thought to improve brain function and memory; and 2) its an acetycholinesterase inhibitor -- acetylcholinesterase is something that's suspected to play a role in cognitive decline in alzheimer's patients.

While I think that it's probably unlikely that POIS's cognitive defect occurs by the same mechanism as Alzheimers (I mean, our more senior members would be suffering from pretty serious decline by now), I have noted certain similarities in our symptoms and have long thought acetycholinesterase inhibitors were interesting. And i've been super interested in trying nootropics for quite some time, but it slipped my mind (somewhat appropriately).

Because of my skepticism of the acetycholinesterase theory and because i've got asthma (and huperzine is thought to be bad for asthmatics), i've purchased a few nootropic supplements and am going to be seeing how they work. I've picked up Choline, vinpocetine and piracetam, and am going to start experimenting with them. I'll keep you in the loop!

[demografx]

Egordon, I'm looking forward to your results! (And please be careful!)

[kurtosis]

With regard to kurtosis's recipe it seems especially likely that the huperzine a is what's worked such wonders for his memory. I don't know if anyone's yet brought this up, but its got 2 things going for it: 1) it's a nootropic, which is a class of supplements thought to improve brain function and memory; and 2) its an acetycholinesterase inhibitor -- acetylcholinesterase is something that's suspected to play a role in cognitive decline in alzheimer's patients.

While I think that it's probably unlikely that POIS's cognitive defect occurs by the same mechanism as Alzheimers (I mean, our more senior members would be suffering from pretty serious decline by now), I have noted certain similarities in our symptoms and have long thought acetycholinesterase inhibitors were interesting. And i've been super interested in trying nootropics for quite some time, but it slipped my mind (somewhat appropriately).

Because of my skepticism of the acetycholinesterase theory and because i've got asthma (and huperzine is thought to be bad for asthmatics), i've purchased a few nootropic supplements and am going to be seeing how they work. I've picked up Choline, vinpocetine and piracetam, and am going to start experimenting with them. I'll keep you in the loop!

Hi,
Yes, I know how huperzine works. It was mentioned on the NSF. One of the problems of having 2 places where POIS is being discussed and parallel messages being sent to/fro.
I found ginkgo works better that vinpocetine but both give relief and I think this may be due to the vasodilatory effect. Ideally, I'd like to use both and cycle them. I've also tried vinpocetine and huperzine together. Again, it definitely has a stimulating effect and reducers the cognitive symptoms of POIS. However, I've found ginkgo and huperzine appears to work best for me. You have to remember that my goal wasn't to cure everybody, it was just to improve things for me and then relate that back to everybody else.
Apologies if that sounded selfish but I have to live with me & so must assume ultimate responsibility for dealing with this illness
I did a LOT of experimentation before arriving at this combination. About the only thing I'd add would be taurine but I want to avoid pushing my testosterone levels too high too quickly.

Piracetam only works for me when I'm having no POIS symptoms. I have some at home and I tried it last weekend. It was great but, in the past, it hasn't improved my POIS. I find it quite inconsistent even with choline supplementation. When it works, there's no doubt you feel fantastic and have numerous brainwaves but, for me at least, it was accompanied by crashing lows.

[demografx]

Fascinating, guys, thanks for sparing me the experimenting. Always curious how far "smart drugs" can actually take you and how dangerous are they?

[Egordon]

Kurtosis,

Fascinating! I'm interested in how my results will differ from yours as i've more or less beat POIS (I use Niacin regularly and take 2 Celebrex post orgasm -- it eliminates all my most severe symptoms completely) but still don't feel like my cognitive processes are completely "normal" or as good as they could be.  So rather than looking for a cure for POIS symptoms, I'm just looking for a way to boost my brain -- which is clearly still suffering from some sort of (fairly mild) disorder -- to "normal" levels. Hopefully, I too will realize some of the gains that you've already felt.

Oh, and kurtosis, don't feel bad about not sharing all of your incredible research. We're all busy and... it happens. I've been meaning to do a post about Celebrex for sometime now but haven't quite gotten around to it. (I've alluded to it several times, but it's really deserving of its own thread.)

Demo,

Many of these drugs are... sketchy. Huperzine and other acetycholinesterase inhibitors have shown great promise in alleviating Alzheimer's symptoms and, as a result, have been the subject of clinical trials. (We know that they should be taken with great caution in patients with preexisting heart problems, as they can slow the heart to dangerous levels.) The other nootropics, though, (including the ones that I bought) we know far far less about.

I'm going to be taking fairly small doses with a great deal of caution and hoping for the best. My quality of life is of great importance to me, so i don't really feel like i have options. I want to feel normal in socializing with people. I want to have professional success. So i've got to try some things that we may later may discover are not completely safe. It's the life we live, i guess.

[kurtosis]

Kurtosis,

Fascinating! I'm interested in how my results will differ from yours as i've more or less beat POIS (I use Niacin regularly and take 2 Celebrex post orgasm -- it eliminates all my most severe symptoms completely) but still don't feel like my cognitive processes are completely "normal" or as good as they could be.  So rather than looking for a cure for POIS symptoms, I'm just looking for a way to boost my brain -- which is clearly still suffering from some sort of (fairly mild) disorder -- to "normal" levels. Hopefully, I too will realize some of the gains that you've already felt.

Oh, and kurtosis, don't feel bad about not sharing all of your incredible research. We're all busy and... it happens. I've been meaning to do a post about Celebrex for sometime now but haven't quite gotten around to it. (I've alluded to it several times, but it's really deserving of its own thread.)

Demo,

Many of these drugs are... sketchy. Huperzine and other acetycholinesterase inhibitors have shown great promise in alleviating Alzheimer's symptoms and, as a result, have been the subject of clinical trials. (We know that they should be taken with great caution in patients with preexisting heart problems, as they can slow the heart to dangerous levels.) The other nootropics, though, (including the ones that I bought) we know far far less about.

I'm going to be taking fairly small doses with a great deal of caution and hoping for the best. My quality of life is of great importance to me, so i don't really feel like i have options. I want to feel normal in socializing with people. I want to have professional success. So i've got to try some things that we may later may discover are not completely safe. It's the life we live, i guess.

Hi Egordon,

Use of Celebrex, a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory is very interesting. Good idea.

Actually, I meant to do a post about that. Ginkgo is a vasodilator and huperzine appears to increase it's vasodilatory effect. Ideally I'd like to take a smaller amount of Huperzine (say 100mcg) 4-5 days a week) rather than 200mcg every 2nd day.
However, I'm trying to get to the "happy" place where I'm functioning perfectly again. Not quite there yet but, then again, I have pretty high standards

That's why I'd like to get a specific formula made up, to give more control.  I'd use less huperzine, include some vinpocetine and consider some SAMe for its stimulant effect and inflammation management. Omega 3s are natural COX-2 inhibitors as are some grape and berry extracts. Blueberry extract looks very promising in animal studies.  In enough quantities Omega 3s work similar to celebrex. I might go back to 2 krill oil a day as I have a balancing act between the rise in testosterone this treatment is producing and the modest increase in adult acne that's resulting from it.

For example, pregnenolone kills my POIS dead but it gives me skin problems including bad acne and itching. These are side effects I can't cope with. The current treatment is nearly as effective but without the unpleasant side effects. If a POIS sufferer had no history of such problems I'd suggest they had some taurine to the supplementation but, for me, I can't handle that much of it.

Overall, I want to avoid a decrease in brain capacity due to POIS. I don't want to arrive at the situation where my POIS is cured but I have little recollection of years of work and study. So herbs, vitamins and amino acids that improve mood, stimulate neurogenesis and reduce inflammation are useful. I've had to do a lot of research into how to achieve these affects with herbs and supplements as I have yet to find a doctor who will prescribe me anything more than an anti-depressant (including Welbutrin). I have heard years of suggestions that I wouldn't able to do my job if there was really something wrong and that there was no neurological damage on an MRI so everything must be fine. Anxiety/ depression - take your pick!

Back to Huperzine In clinical trials, people have been given Huperzine in multiples of the 200mcg dose every day and, in some patients, it has led to arrhythmia.  Others were fine. Most I'm also relatively fit and try to get regular exercise, even if it's just walks every day. When you're taking vasodilators it's necessary stay fit.

Huperzine is not advised for asthma-sufferers but I've noticed no ill-effects. I have relatively mild asthma and my asthma seems to be getting less severe since I started taking b vitamins and zinc. So, while I'm not worried about the effects myself, Huperzine is not a drug that someone with a pre-existing heart condition should be taking.  It's also contraindicated for people on tricyclic anti-depressants, those on parkinsons medication and those on other medication that's designed to lower heart rate. I'm not on any of this but others might be. Please check with your doctor.

As for piracetam, some claim it's very safe. I believe it is but I found the results psychologically inconsistent. I found myself chasing a piracetam clarity that I could never quite seem to get right whether it was dependent on mood, choline, other neuro-chemicals.. I just don't know.