Hi All,
I'm sorry for the slow reply. I haven't been on the forum as much lately.
Hi hapl,
Right now immune support items are harder to get. What would be the minimum daily stack that you feel would be effective?
Yes, the immune support items are running out because the coronavirus caused many people to try and boost their immune systems. I did not do a minimum-effective-dose test. My guess is that taking lower doses would take longer to see results and cost more money.
Could you start off with just AHCC (does the source matter? is this better than cordyceps or lion's mane?). Cycle on and off as you recommend. Not counting the prepack, what other supplements are the most important?
Yes, AHCC is more potent at stimulating NK cells than cordyceps and lion's mane. Each of the supplements in the therapy have different roles so I can't say what is most important. AHCC and adrographis go well together. Vitamin C and copper are synergistic. Vitamin D3 and zinc are synergistic.
Copper gluconate seems harder to find that glycinate - is it important to use that form? Same with lipo C - there are so many competing products on Amazon and hard to tell if they're real liposomal and if they're all the same.
Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to the supplier questions. If you happen to try different vitamin C and copper combinations and find that some products work better than others please let us know.
(I looked for the Immuno Complex you recommend, but Quality of Life is out of stock and looks like Amazon as well. Shame, because that looked like it had several important items in one easy supplement.)
LEF has high quality
andrographis, beta-glucan and
AHCC. I saw some smaller online stores that have ImmunoComplex, but I don't know how credible they are.
Hi berlin1984,
What's your opinion on Reishi?...
...beta-glucan (1g)
The active ingredients in Reishi are the beta-glucans. There are differences between them (see Wiki:
Beta-glucan) but it gets complicated. Basically, beta-glucans are better at stimulating the immune system to fight bacteria and AHCC (alpha-glucan) is better at stimulating anti-viral immunity. Both alpha and beta glucans stimulate anti-fungal and anti-cancer immunity.
copper gluconate (2mg, empty stomach)
On empty stomach makes me VOMIT. Not nice. With food works. I wonder if that is a general reaction or a "detox" reaction.
In my case, it was a detox reaction. At high concentration, copper is toxic to certain bacteria and virus. Good bacteria in the microbiome have mostly adjusted to be compatible with the nutrients and minerals in the human diet. But foreign (harmful) bacteria die quickly in the presence of copper. When these bacteria die they burst open and release toxins/debris. If the toxins reach a high enough concentration in the digestive tract, our immune system will try to remove the toxins from the body as fast as possible. Sometimes this means vomiting.
Drinking more water and/or food can dilute the copper and slow down how fast the bacteria die. But too much food could eliminate the die-off effect from copper. I preferred to just drinking water when I felt sick or like I might vomit. Eventually, I got to the point where I could take copper on an empty stomach and not feel anything. But, not everyone has to do what I did. Experiment with whatever method you feel comfortable with.
...What's your theory on this with regards to the potential pathogen(s) or immune reaction...
First, I have to explain the non-POIS (normal) case. Sexual stimulation leads to dopamine and glutamate release. Some of the dopamine is converted to norepinephrine (noradrenaline, NOR) and epinephrine (adrenaline, EPI). In normal (non-POIS) orgasm, the neurotransmitters dopamine, NOR and EPI each independently stimulate the release of beta-endorphin. Beta-endorphin forms a negative feedback on NOR and EPI by blocking their adrenergic receptor-signal and preventing NOR/EPI induced immune supression. The Beta-endorphin block on adrenergic receptors also prevents NOR and EPI from stimulating viral reactivation.
Beta-endorphin stimulates the release of
BDNF and
prolactin. These three can all independently stimulate increases in natural killer (NK) cell number and activity against pathogen (fungus, virus, bacteria, cancer). This can lead to an increase in the killing of pathogens and resistence to new disease. Beta-endorphin is also an opioid which causes euphoria and a decreased sensitivity to pain. BDNF is an antidepressant neutrophin which causes improved mood, feelings of well being and improved memory. Prolactin, oxytocin and vitamin D work together to balance the immune system (preventing autoimmunity, allergy, cytokine storms, etc...).
According to the hypothesis I give in the
original post, an infection inhibits beta-endorphin release. When beta-endorphin (endogenous opioid) levels drop, BDNF levels drop also. This produces symptoms of opioid withdrawl. Without beta-endorphin, the temporary rise of EPI and NOR from sex leads to immune supression and infection reactivation. The idea that POIS is a type of opioid withdrawl comes the POIS case study by a group of allergist in
(Jia Yin, et al, 2015). These researchers rule out allergy as the cause of POIS and then propose that POIS is caused by a suppression of mu-opioid receptor signaling. This is a simplified way of viewing the model:
The
POIS cascade is described
here. The enzyme
arginase helps convert L-arginine to spermadine and
spermine (immune suppressors). Note that neutrophils and NK cells work together to fight infection. When NK cells are suppressed during infection, this could cause neutrophils to be overun and depleted.
Note that many diseases are suppressed by the NK immune cells, including those that do not cause POIS. But when the POIS infection is triggered by EPI and NOR, this causes a temporary immune deficiency. Any latent diseases that are normally suppressed by NK cells is no longer being suppressed. So many symptoms of POIS will come from infections that do not cause POIS (are not triggered by EPI/NOR). They are the result and manifestation of POIS, but not the cause. Treating latent infections may reduce symptoms during POIS even when those infection do not cause POIS because those infection would be triggered by the lack of an NK immune defense. Some latent infections are suppressed by CD4/CD8 memory T cells and do not need NK cell suppression.
Symptoms of the POIS-causing infection will be similar to opioid withdrawl. But the POIS symptoms from other diseases will vary depending on what infections a person has.
This is what I think happen when I took copper. I do not think POIS is caused by gut problems. But I do think that the microbiome is regulated by the innate immune system. When the innate immune system is suppressed there can be an imbalance of bad bacteria in the gut. In some cases, I believe that using copper to kill chronic infections of bad bacteria is a way of reducing stomach problems that happen during POIS without necessarily treating the infection that caused POIS (and immune suppression). This is my opinion.
Speaking about sex: How does the obersvation that masturbation leads to worse symptoms than real sex fit into your theory? Something about neurotransmitters? Or immune system?
Even without sex, interpersonal connections with people (hugging, kissing, laughing, talking and other social interactions) increase beta-endorphins. This rise in beta-endorphin stimulates BDNF and oxytocin leading to improvements in immune function, cognition and mood. Interacting with other people promotes good health.
In short, i want to understand why does my body react so differently to orgasm following sex versus masturbation?...
There are two reason given in the POIS literature for a difference between POIS from sex versus masturbation. The first reason comes from the paper:
Progesterone deficiency, "Benign coital headache relieved by partner's pregnancies with implications for future treatment" (Selwyn Dexter, 2009)
...
...The second reason is given by the paper:
Mu-opioid receptor dysfunction, "Postorgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS) in a Chinese Man: No Proof for IgE‐Mediated Allergy to Semen" (Jia Yin, et al, 2015)
Regarding your older postings which focus on reducing inflammation by reducing Arachidonic acid: Are you still vegan?
I am no longer vegan, I am no longer taking the POIS Cascade Stack. But I am not experiencing POIS symptoms except for an itch/tingle on the left side of my chin.
Hi Iwillbeatthis,
Also what is an example of an arginase inhibitor?
A lot of these brands have Arginine Nitrate in them is this a bad thing?
Arginase inhibitors can be found here (
arginase inhibitor pharmacokinetics).
Nitrates are good but I would avoid direct arginine supplements. If you are also taking an arginase inhibitor, that should block the conversion of arginine to spermine (immune suppression). But citrulline is always preferred over arginine.
Hi Hopeoneday,
Nanna1,
As I thought, that we are imunocompromised because hidden infection
or toxin. What bothering me about this theory, is that corticosteroids help some part of poisers.
That tells me, that not all poisers have suppressed immune response on O.(maybe i am wrong).
Corticosteroids "work" the same way that progesterone does, by blocking phospholipase enzymes and
enhancing vitamin D receptor function. So corticosteroids block the release of arachidonic acid (omega-6, AA). Many different steroids have regulatory control over phospholipase. For example, testosterone suppresses phospholipase D. This is a temporary solution that does not "work" long term. You cannot systemically block the arachidonic acid cascade forever. Also, steroids make it harder to feel pleasure from orgasm.
(see
Glucocorticoids inhibit prostaglandin synthesis not only at the level of phospholipase A2 but also at the level of cyclo-oxygenase/PGE isomerase, 1989and
Testosterone suppresses phospholipase D, causing sex differences in leukotriene biosynthesis in human monocytes, 2011).
Essential Reproduction. Martin H. Johnson, Barry J. Everitt. (1988)
By the whay, is it in any of the past pois studies? Did they measure delayed hypersensitivity immune response of t-cells?
Since Dr. Waldinger first proposed allergy type I and antigen type IV hypersensitivity as a cause of POIS (Waldinger, et al, 2011), several POIS case studies have tested hypersensitivity/allergy responses in POIS patients. It was concluded through semen injection studies that POIS patients do not show a greater allergic response to semen than non-POIS controls (
Jia Yin, et al, 2015). Many POISers do not experience allergic reaction to semen injection. So there is no need to isolate a specific cell type or time frame. Several POIS case studies have ruled out allergy and autoimmunity through autonomous semen injections (
Attia, et al, 2013)(
Jia Yin, et al, 2015)(
N. Depreux, et al, 2018)(
De Amicis, et al, 2019)(
Pierce, et al, 2019). So hypersensitivity does not appear to be involve in POIS.
