Author Topic: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy  (Read 33876 times)

Hopeoneday

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2020, 04:02:40 PM »

Sorry, I didn't mean it is an insult. I'm new to the forum. I checked your posts and how I'm very tempted to try Aciclovir but I'd need a subscription. Meh. I should probably go to the doctor to get some virus checks, but convincing the doctor to do checks is hard (because they need to prove to health insurance that the check is good).
No worry Berlin, i didnt take that as insult, yust give to you some info about matter, it is "inposible" to read all and catch all on this forum.
I didnt knew that a health checks in Germany is so hard to be aproved..
hmm..
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 04:05:10 PM by Hopeoneday »
Dr-pois.

berlin1984

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency Theory of POIS
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2020, 04:44:13 AM »
In the paper "Immunophenotypical Characterization of a Brazilian POIS patient", the POIS patient was found to be deficient in cytotoxic natural killer (NK) cells and B lymphocyte cells, and an over expression of monocytes. The aurthors of this paper also note that:
"Some studies have shown a decrease of NK cell percentage in association with a reduction of activity of these cells in peripheral blood of patients with depression. Other mental disorders such as mental stress, autism and obsessive-compulsive disorder have also been reported to present lower NK cell activity."

  The deficiency in Natural Killers indicates that immune suppression could be preventing this patient from forming a competent immune response.

I don't like to bring up the link because I feel it's cliche but anyway:
"Numerous studies have found evidence of reduced natural killer cell function in patients with myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS)"

Regarding AHCC also see: http://www.ahccpublishedresearch.com/studies/AHCC_04_1002.html

fidalgo

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency Theory of POIS
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2020, 09:53:38 AM »
3. Immune Suppression/Immune Tolerance model of POIS

  Many theories of POIS center around an assumption that the immune cells are too active and need to be suppressed or stabilized. Here, I present the exact opposite theory, namely that cytotoxic innate immune cells, such as natural killer (NK, CD56 or CD57) cells are not active enough and need to be increased. NK cells are protective against the reactivation of latent infection. It is the absence of a competent innate (NK) immune response that causes increased inflammatory chemokine release due to uncontrolled pathogen replication. In other words, POISers experience a temporary immuno-compromised state triggered by certain neurohormones (adrenaline, PGE2, etc...) of the sexual response cycle.

  In the paper "Immunophenotypical Characterization of a Brazilian POIS patient", the POIS patient was found to be deficient in cytotoxic natural killer (NK) cells and B lymphocyte cells, and an over expression of monocytes. The aurthors of this paper also note that:
"Some studies have shown a decrease of NK cell percentage in association with a reduction of activity of these cells in peripheral blood of patients with depression. Other mental disorders such as mental stress, autism and obsessive-compulsive disorder have also been reported to present lower NK cell activity."

  The deficiency in Natural Killers indicates that immune suppression could be preventing this patient from forming a competent immune response. The deficiency in B cells may indicate that immune tolerance is preventing humoral immunity from correcting the problem associated with POIS. Without a competent humoral/memory immunity, the immune system treats the reactivation of latent infections as if it is a new/acute infection. One of the main signaling roles of spermine and kynurenine is to induce immune tolerance to foreign substances and DNA. This immune tolerance can inhibit the formation of cytotoxic T cell memory of pathogens and prevent a competent humoral response.
 
  Since, most POISers recover from POIS in the 5 to 7 day range. The time kinetics of NK, T, B cells seems to suggest that, in the absence of an immunocompetent NK response, POIS recovery is correlated with the time-dependent expansion of non-memory CD8+ T cells.
 
  This time-dependent increase in CD8 T cells occurs during sleep (How Sleep Fights Infection: Snoozing Makes Killer Immune Cells More Sticky). So, the sooner sleep occurs following orgasm, the sooner CD8 T cells can start replacing the function of NK cells in the immune response. Moreover, sleep deprivation has been shown to suppress NK cells in humans (Ref1, Ref2, Ref3, Ref4). So good sleep is vital for immune function and recovery from POIS.

  So this immune suppression model predicts that normal (non-POIS) people rely upon a transient increase in NK cell activity to suppress latent infections, while POISers rely upon the slower CD8 T cell increase to control those same latent infections. This means that POISers should experience a (days-long) elevation in chemokines due to the delay in time that it takes the adaptive (non-memory) T cells to respond. Transient PGE2 release induces the arginase-1 and IDO1 mediated suppression of innate cells (namely Natural Killers).

Hi!!! Just posting to say that I'm the brazilian guy of the study...

nanna1

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency Theory of POIS
« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2020, 02:17:39 PM »
Hi!!! Just posting to say that I'm the brazilian guy of the study...
Hi fidalgo, welcome to the forum!
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

Mushnikk

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2020, 02:35:39 PM »
Hi All,
I'm sorry for the slow reply. I haven't been on the forum as much lately.

Regarding your older postings which focus on reducing inflammation by reducing Arachidonic acid: Are you still vegan?
I am no longer vegan, I am no longer taking the POIS Cascade Stack. But I am not experiencing POIS symptoms except for an itch/tingle on the left side of my chin.


What is your explanation for your almost complete remission of symptoms in the absence of supplementation?  :)

Hopeoneday

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2020, 03:45:25 PM »
I applaud the mods to move this post here
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788 at the top of this topic here https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0 and to stay there permanently with updates patterns.
Dr-pois.

Hopeoneday

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2020, 03:55:58 PM »
What is your explanation for your almost complete remission of symptoms in the absence of supplementation?  :)
The answer is on top of this theme, permantent remove of transient immune drop response (removing drop of immunity! Simplified).

« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 03:58:56 PM by Hopeoneday »
Dr-pois.

Muon

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2020, 04:08:59 PM »
I applaud the mods to move this post here
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788 at the top of this topic here https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0 and to stay there permanently with updates patterns.
Or make a new thead in the same forum category with a similar thread title and update that one.

certainlypois2

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2020, 01:08:45 AM »
Right now immune support items are harder to get. What would be the minimum daily stack that you feel would be effective? I've had many immune problems (constant brain fog) and POIS makes them significantly worse - but it feels like allowing latent problems to worsen, which supports the immune function theory I would think.

Thanks!

These are small suppliers that I have successfully bought immuno complex; hilife and natural healthy concepts. I just ordered one from netnutri, we will see how they turn out.

kingfisher

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #69 on: May 20, 2020, 01:52:21 AM »
Hi Nanna1,

I have started on AHCC. I hope it will work for me.

  The time frame for remission of POIS symptoms varied for each combo of supplements and symptoms. For example, it took about 2 month for AHCC to cause symptom remission, but during that time the (non-POIS) symptoms increased before they decreased.

Hope I can ask - did you start seeing the first signs of symptom remission with AHCC immediately or only after many weeks? I realise I am assuming AHCC was the key supplement to reverse POIS in your immune competence stack even though you were taking others like - Copper gluconate, Vitamin C etc.

I tried a caffeine + l-theanine combination supplement (100 mg + 100 mg before O) for transient immune suppression along with Echinacea (250 mg once daily) for immune activation. My POIS cycle usually takes 3-4 days,  good thing is that it reduced to 2 days and has remained at that. But the symptoms I have on day 1 is as intense as earlier (i.e without supplements). I have been doing this dosage for nearly 1.5 months now. 

I tried Echinacea first for immune activation instead of AHCC since it was cheaper and readily available in a nearby store. Also there were few studies that showed it increases NK cells:
Enhancement of Natural Killer Cells and Increased Survival of Aging Mice Fed Daily Echinacea Root Extract From Youth
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16041619/
Echinacea Purpurea and Melatonin Augment Natural-Killer Cells in Leukemic Mice and Prolong Life Span
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11439845/

I also tried an increased dosage of Echinacea (500 mg once daily). Despite that it did not reduce the POIS duration below 2 days. Maybe I should experiment with a larger dose of L-Theanine also (you had recommended 300 mg) to see if it makes a larger difference than Echinacea. But for immune activation I am now switching over to AHCC from Echinacea.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 01:07:50 AM by kingfisher »

Iwillbeatthis

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #70 on: May 20, 2020, 05:42:30 AM »
Hi Nanna1

Is l-citrulline ok to use instead or is citrulline malate needed? I have found that citrulline malate has only half the amount of l citrulline in than the amount advertised, was this considered when you suggested it. And also a lot of the workout supplements with the right ingredients only have     
l-citrulline.
Is only caffeine fine to use as an arginase inhibitor?

Kingfisher
I have started using the immuno complex for one day and already feel a lot better from it. However half the Copper gluconate dose on the other hand does give some brain fog maybe I should try with food.

Thanks

hapl

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2020, 07:41:02 PM »
Nanna1 - is the copper gluconate and beta-glucan meant to be taken three times a day on an empty stomach, or only the Immuno Complex?

certainlypois2

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2020, 02:30:09 PM »
Nanna1 - is the copper gluconate and beta-glucan meant to be taken three times a day on an empty stomach, or only the Immuno Complex?

copper gluconate empty stomach - i wait one hr before eating
immuno complex - 15 - 20 minutes before a meal, according to nanna1 it needs food
beta glucan - you can use anytime, nanna1 does not mention anything and the package does not say anything.

From my experience this stack activates the immune system. It has reduced the effects h-pylori. I had some things that have been on my body for a while that started clearing up withing days of the stack and disappeared in about two weeks.

Iwillbeatthis

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #73 on: May 23, 2020, 07:05:24 AM »
I think he was asking whether to take the copper and beta gluconate 3 times a day or not.

From my understanding I think Nanna meant only to take the copper and beta glucan once a day.

The immune activation stack is working really well for me, the copper gluconate had been throwing me off a bit at first but its getting better. It seems like this stack could be the end of everything. The most helpful things seem to be the copper and the immuno complex supplements.


Thank you Nanna for this you are a lifesaver!


Nanna1 - is the copper gluconate and beta-glucan meant to be taken three times a day on an empty stomach, or only the Immuno Complex?

copper gluconate empty stomach - i wait one hr before eating
immuno complex - 15 - 20 minutes before a meal, according to nanna1 it needs food
beta glucan - you can use anytime, nanna1 does not mention anything and the package does not say anything.

From my experience this stack activates the immune system. It has reduced the effects h-pylori. I had some things that have been on my body for a while that started clearing up withing days of the stack and disappeared in about two weeks.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 02:26:19 PM by Iwillbeatthis »

Journey

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #74 on: May 23, 2020, 09:09:48 AM »
I think he was asking whether to take the copper and beta gluconate 3 times a day or not.

From my understanding I think Nanna meant only to take the copper and beta glucan once a day.

The immune activation stack is working really well for me, the copper gluconate had been throwing me off a bit at first but its getting better. It seems like this stack could be the end of everything. The most helpful things seem to be the copper and the immuno complex supplements.

If you are out of the US then you can't purchase the C4 ultimate version which is linked, this is the closest thing that I could find with the required ingredients https://www.dolphinfitness.co.uk/en/applied-nutrition-pump-3g-375g/205375

Thank you Nanna for this you are a lifesaver!


Nanna1 - is the copper gluconate and beta-glucan meant to be taken three times a day on an empty stomach, or only the Immuno Complex?

copper gluconate empty stomach - i wait one hr before eating
immuno complex - 15 - 20 minutes before a meal, according to nanna1 it needs food
beta glucan - you can use anytime, nanna1 does not mention anything and the package does not say anything.

From my experience this stack activates the immune system. It has reduced the effects h-pylori. I had some things that have been on my body for a while that started clearing up withing days of the stack and disappeared in about two weeks.

Good to know that it helps you. I wonder how it will improve later. I'm interested in seeing how this stack helps for you as you continue taking it.

hapl

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #75 on: May 23, 2020, 12:47:42 PM »
I think he was asking whether to take the copper and beta gluconate 3 times a day or not.

From my understanding I think Nanna meant only to take the copper and beta glucan once a day.

The immune activation stack is working really well for me, the copper gluconate had been throwing me off a bit at first but its getting better. It seems like this stack could be the end of everything. The most helpful things seem to be the copper and the immuno complex supplements.

If you are out of the US then you can't purchase the C4 ultimate version which is linked, this is the closest thing that I could find with the required ingredients https://www.dolphinfitness.co.uk/en/applied-nutrition-pump-3g-375g/205375

Thank you Nanna for this you are a lifesaver!

Yeah, I was wondering whether to take three times a day for the copper and beta glucans.

I just did 6 days on AHCC and copper, now on my second day off the cycle. Was feeling better on the AHCC, feeling a bit worse now that I've cycled off (which I kind of thought was the opposite of what was expected with immune activation).

Iwillbeatthis

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2020, 07:23:54 AM »
Yeah I also don't feel that bad now while taking them so do I even need to cycle off? Also how long is the immune activation stack suggested to be taken for in total?

berlin1984

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2020, 07:52:57 AM »
@Iwillbeatthis  @hapl
What's your complete supplement stack?
What is your diet?
How is your sleep? (length, quality)
Did you anything change in your digestion?
How often do you O?

Iwillbeatthis

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #78 on: May 27, 2020, 02:41:12 PM »
.
@Iwillbeatthis  @hapl
What's your complete supplement stack?
What is your diet?
How is your sleep? (length, quality)
Did you anything change in your digestion?
How often do you O?


@berlin
Stack right now is Immuno complex , copper gluconate and beta glucan and I was also having zeobent (a mix of zeolite and bentonite) before every meal. This was working well but I decided to stop the zeobent and haven't been feeling as good since I've stopped so I might start it again, I was just worried it might not be safe. I was also having fish oil capsules which had vitamin d which worked well and that ran out, so I bought a new liquid fish oil which was much stronger but this seems to throw me off balance and give some brain fog, I am not sure if its because of the strength, or that its liquid or because of the additional ingredients:  Ascorbyl palmitate, rosmeary extract. I have also been having extreme pelvic pain and Im not sure if it was from the liquid fish oil or from stopping the zeobent.

I also have the applied nutrition Pump pre workout which I have just taken to try it out but haven't tested with O yet. I do seem to be apathetic from it and I'm not sure if its becuase of the L tyrosine. I have a high HVA/VMA ratio which is the balance between dopamine and norepinephrine/epinephrine production. Which means I'm dopamine heavy and L tyrosine is not reccomended for people with this high ratio. So not sure if I should stop it or not.

I have also been taking on and off - NAC to clear mucus and activated charcoal as a binder

I did have a wet dream since starting the stack and i didn't feel brain fog however I did feel nauseous and a little zoned out from the immune stack.

My diet is sweet potatoes with meat: salmon, beef, chicken or brown rice and onions with meat, I also eat celery and carrots, almonds and popcorn and toritlla chips  and some fruit for snacks . I avoid broccoli, spinach because that makes me feel worse waking the next day but things have changed so maybe I should try it out again. I also avoid yoghurt and alcohol
I do have white rice and white potatoes from time to time but I do feel it the next day still.

Sleep is fine atm, I sleep for 7-9 hours. I O 1-2 times every month. I'm not sure if my digestion has been changed or not.

Hope this helps

nanna1

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #79 on: May 27, 2020, 10:12:54 PM »
Is l-citrulline ok to use instead or is citrulline malate needed?
Is only caffeine fine to use as an arginase inhibitor?

  @Iwillbeatthis I don?t know much about the bioavailability of l-citrulline but I encourage experimentation.
If you can find another arginase inhibitor that has pre-pack pharmackinetics, that should be fine. PDE5 inhibitors Viagra and Cialis are also arginase inhibitors, but I have never taken them.

Nanna1 - is the copper gluconate and beta-glucan meant to be taken three times a day on an empty stomach, or only the Immuno Complex?
copper gluconate empty stomach - i wait one hr before eating
immuno complex - 15 - 20 minutes before a meal, according to nanna1 it needs food
beta glucan - you can use anytime, nanna1 does not mention anything and the package does not say anything.
  @ hapl, I agree with certainlypois2, but I will add one note. When I first started copper, I could only tolerate one dose per day because it made my stomach feel like it was going to vomit (bacteria die-off). After a few days, this feeling went away so I tried 2 times a day to increase the vomit feeling. Then I increased the dose to 3 times per day. I did not count how many weeks, but at a certain point I could take higher doses without feeling anything or even feeling better after copper. That's when I stopped taking copper. I don't think it is necessary to increase the dose or take multiple doses per day. I was impatient and personally willing to experiment on my body, but that doesn't mean that everyone is comfortable doing that. As long as you are consistent with the once a day, it should do it's job.

I tried a caffeine + l-theanine combination supplement (100 mg + 100 mg before O) for transient immune suppression along with Echinacea (250 mg once daily) for immune activation.
  @kingfisher, I think that the ability of caffeine to block arginase and increase the production of nitric oxide from arginine/citrulline plays a role in the ability of this pre-pack to up regulate NK cell activity. NK cells consume a lot of arginine and nitric oxide. If you don't prefer citrulline, there may be other sources of nitric oxide that you can try such as beet/spinach nitrates.
  The side-effects of caffeine come from an imbalance of the glutamate/dopamine ratio (too much glutamate, not enough dopamine). Theanine can help rebalance the glutamate/dopamine balance, but the optimum ratio for theanine:caffeine is 2:1 (in mg). I tried Echinacea but it did not do much for me. Let us know if you find some results with that.

  The time frame for remission of POIS symptoms varied for each combo of supplements and symptoms. For example, it took about 2 month for AHCC to cause symptom remission, but during that time the (non-POIS) symptoms increased before they decreased.
...did you start seeing the first signs of symptom remission with AHCC immediately or only after many weeks?...
  My symptoms increased in the beginning, but these were not typical POIS symptoms. For example, I had a lot of face-muscle twitching on AHCC the first week, but this was s minor symptom that I sometimes experienced with POIS. I don't remember having an orgasm the first few weeks when I was trying AHCC (or I don't remember the symptoms). Eventually, I did experience more POIS like symptoms from taking AHCC, but it was never as bad as real POIS. I think that the path to symptom reduction will look a little different for each person. People who also take andrographis may not experience increased symptoms with AHCC. I read that andrographis speeds up the adaptive immunity, but initially I was not taking andrographis.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 10:36:29 AM by nanna1 »
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/