Author Topic: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy  (Read 8473 times)

FernandoPOIS

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency theory of POIS
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2019, 07:17:42 AM »
Forgive me for the pessimism, but all reasonings lead the same way:

Treat the cause of the inflammation. As this process is difficult, we end up falling into the same treatment that is the use of anti inflammatory drugs. And there's the fact that mental stress, low dopamine, and low serotonin are potential enhancers.
We know that prolonged use of prostaglandin and histamine inhibitors is risky. This vicious cycle seems to lead to the conclusion that POIS is a consequence rather than the cause and if it does not treat the cause there will be no cure.
My POIS only happens with masturbation. Normal sex does not generate POIS symptoms. When I have no back pain and I masturbate the POIS symptoms are weaker and last for at most 2 days. My POIS is related to the health of my thoracic and cervical spine. Postural and Aerobic Exercise heal the vagus.

Muon

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency theory of POIS
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2019, 07:47:24 AM »
-i have unidentified rheuamothoid arhtritis but i havenot any markers of that  except CRP so my hips and knees are a little bit inflamed all the time but it started 2 years before POIS.

Enhanced interferon gamma response contributes to disease remission in Rheumatoid Arthritis.

Interferon Gamma Suppresses Collagen-Induced Arthritis by Regulation of Th17 through the Induction of Indoleamine-2,3-Deoxygenase

Mechanisms of Disease: the link between RANKL and arthritic bone disease

''RANKL, through its ability to stimulate osteoclast formation and activity, is a critical mediator of bone resorption and overall bone density. Overproduction of RANKL is implicated in a variety of degenerative bone diseases, such as rheumatoid arthritis and psoriatic arthritis.''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RANKL#Clinical_significance

nebraska

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency theory of POIS
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2019, 08:43:11 AM »
update:
i have some meds that make me feel better and have some make me feel worse

none of antiflammatory drugs have effect on my POIS, for me its 100% no correlation
my arthritis and POIS are not correlated in symptoms. i can ejuaculate 50 times in a day but my inflammatin willnot get worse. just cognitive impairment
i believe somewhere fundamentally that things are related but not through stuff that can be depleted by NSAID and oters antiinflammatory

Hopeoneday

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency theory of POIS
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2019, 08:50:40 AM »
Many theories of POIS center around an assumption that the immune cells are too active and need to be suppressed. Here, I present the EXACT OPOSITE THEORY,

Well, me also suspecting this a long time ago, i would like to know-
is it in question supressed imune system, i can feel that it is.
But is this to all poisers???

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2136.msg27037#msg27037

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3098.msg31025#msg31025

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23835#msg23835

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg26010#msg26010

I did read that one man on nackedscientists tryed imunosuppresants to test
this theory and didnt work:
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.16680 and some of them ended crached after.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 02:09:39 PM by Hopeoneday »
Dr-pois.

nanna1

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency theory of POIS
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2019, 09:10:05 PM »
...the most powerful ingridients are citrulline malate 8g and 320mg of caffeine.
so, it was about 30-40% relief.
Hi nebraska,

I would not take more than 130mg of caffeine in any one day. Also, it may be good to stay under 4g of citrulline. The 320mg of caffeine could be a problem a person who has pre-existing heart problems and lead to jitters. Too much citrulline could lead to nitrogen imbalance.
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

Hopeoneday

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency theory of POIS
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2019, 08:57:32 AM »
Hi Nana, what did you done to improve yours imunodefiency, neutropenia,
and "NK" cels response of inate imunity?
Dr-pois.

demografx

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency theory of POIS
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2019, 06:40:05 PM »

nanna1 or nanna
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

nanna1

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency theory of POIS
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2019, 01:10:59 AM »
The immune therapy that I was doing can be found here: Immune competency therapy
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

nebraska

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency theory of POIS
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2019, 07:28:43 AM »
really nice work, nanna.
thank you for your efforts.
i was trying a supplement IP-6 for a 3 weeks.i was made it in a line with my iron-overload theory(i have high levels of total serum iron but low-middle transferrin saturation and low levels of ferritin) and my pois started about the time when i was using oral iron supplementation(i have a theory that pois is a result of wrong digestion and Fenton's reagent cause of that in my body, oxidative stress).
 So, ip-6 is a great immune stimulator and it made my joints a loooot inflamed in a level i couldnot move
so i cant follow this method
but i had a little improvement in my pois conditions due that so( i dont know its a result of iron chelation or immune activation )

i have some improvement also with supplements that reduces access iron to tissues(ala, quercetin)


update: however i could suppose that all my cognitive problems(endogenious depression preceding pois) started with prep sulfasalazine(immunosuppresor) but i had canceled it 3 years ago - my immune system had come back(joints inflamed) but pois didnot managed
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 05:19:07 AM by nebraska »

kingfisher

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2020, 04:41:23 AM »
Hi Nanna1,

Wow. For the subset of POISER's who feel the immune response is involved in POIS, I think it is seriously worth validating your hypothesis.

 I'll try to get the lymphocyte panel test done. Am I correct in understanding that this test will be enough to reveal the state of the innate immune system? The panel measures absolute NK cells and  absolute levels of various other T/B lymphocytes.   
 How to check non-memory T cell counts?
 Also are IgM antibodies from B cells considered part of the innate immune response? Per your model, if pathogen reactivation is treated as a new infection would B cell IgM antibody (non-specific) also rise from day 4-5? 

 In my case I feel the immune response within a few minutes sometimes in just a couple hours. I always thought because the innate immune response reacted immediately after an ejaculation that's why I felt an immune response that quickly. But your model proposes that the innate immune system itself is suppressed. So per your model, if the innate immune cells are suppressed what part of the immune response could be the reason that makes us feel sick in a short time?
 
Maybe my questions are really dumb! I am trying to see if lab tests can reveal something about innate immune system suppression in my case. I think I need to specifically check my blood urea and neutrophils the day after an O. But the many times I had tested  for urea or WBC counts -  neutrophils/basophils/eosonophils/monocytes/lymphocytes (not specifically tested for days I was having POIS) there had been nothing abnormal in my test results.

Thanks.
 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 07:56:29 AM by kingfisher »

nanna1

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2020, 11:30:34 PM »
In my case I feel the immune response within a few minutes sometimes in just a couple hours. I always thought because the innate immune response reacted immediately after an ejaculation that's why I felt an immune response that quickly. But your model proposes that the innate immune system itself is suppressed. So per your model, if the innate immune cells are suppressed what part of the immune response could be the reason that makes us feel sick in a short time?
  Hi kingfisher, sorry for the late reply. That is an awesome question! I think that it is mainly Natural Killer cells that are blocked in POIS. But other innate cells (monocytes, macrophages, etc...) are not blocked. Let me explain:

Basically, I think that the POIS hypothesis in the following paper is correct but incomplete:
"Postorgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS) in a Chinese Man: No Proof for IgE‐Mediated Allergy to Semen" (Jia Yin, et al, 2015)

  In that Jia Yin et. al. paper, they focus mostly on showing that IgE allergy is not involved in the POIS of one patient. However, towards the end of the paper, they suggest that POIS could be caused by low beta-endorphin signaling (low endorphins or low mu-opioid receptors). The reasoning follows:

  Epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noreadrenaline) are released during sex, exercise, fear (fight or flight), chronic stress, etc... They stimulate orgasm, ejaculation, skin-flushing, and increased heart-rate.
In general, these neurotransmitters suppress the immune system (see post). Since adrenaline and norepinephrine levels fall during sleep, sleep deprivation also causes high adrenaline levels and immune suppression (Ref).

  However, during sex and exercise the immune system is enhanced because beta-endorphins block the immune suppression effects of adrenaline/noradrenaline. Beta-endorphin also stimulates the innate immune response to viruses and inhibits viral replication. See: Ref1, Ref2
For example:
"We found that beta-endorphin but not dynorphin could stimulate NK cell activity... beta-endorphin appears to be one of the signals that is induced in the brain at the CS recall step of the conditioned response to trigger the elevation of NK cell activity."
-Expression of the conditioned NK cell activity is beta-endorphin dependent
Endorphin receptors are not the only receptors that block adrenaline/stress induced NK cell immune suppression (see post).

  However, if the endorphin signaling is blocked, then we should not expect an increase in NK cells from sex. My hypothesis is that a pathogen reactivates during adrenaline signaling. This same pathogen inhibits the endorphin signaling needed to increase (sex-induce) NK cell levels. So when the pathogen is triggered, the NK cell response is inhibited simultaneously.

  According to this model, NK cells do not need to drop to cause POIS. The only thing that is needed to cause POIS is for NK cell to fail to increase during orgasm (or pathogen reactivation). In healthy non-POIS people, NK cells should increase whenever a pathogen is attempting to spread and/or whenever endorphins are released. If NK cells stay normal or fall during orgasm, the person will become ill.

  I think the symptoms come from monocyte/macrophage/neutrophils cells releasing chemokines and their effects. The macrophages detect the virus and start releasing chemokines to induce chemotaxis of NK cells (draw NK cells to the site of infection). But no NK cells arrive. So the virus replicates, and macrophages release even more chemokines than before.
The cycle of failed NK cell response and increased chemokine release continues until an adaptive CD8+ T cell response can replace the NK cells. See "inefficient NK cell response" below:

  It is possible that in the absence of an efficient NK cell response, neutrophils could become overstressed and depleted trying to fight the pathogen. So in POISers, I would expect a lack of an increase in NK cells due to sex as the main metric to test. Other metrics around spermine production may show up in test. But also a secondary metric could be a gradual decrease in blood neutrophils during the POIS episode. The stomach problems that many people focus on is probably one side-effect of this aberrant immune function but most likely not the cause.

  I currently, can experience 4 orgasm a week and function normally without supplements or drugs. My previous symptoms (before the immune therapy) were severe (see medical info post). My only symptoms now are an itchy feeling on the left side of my face and an occasional compulsion to scratch it. I can't prove that the therapy was the reason for the disappearance of almost all my symptoms, but my improvement is correlated in time with the immune therapy. Let me know if you have any other ideas, questions, comments...
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 06:56:37 PM by nanna1 »
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

BluesBrother

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2020, 02:13:53 PM »
Hi nanna1, thanks a lot for your detailed posts and explanations! I have a few questions:

1. How does your prepack in this topic relate to your previous prepack? In particular, why do you exclude paracetamol, diclofenac, vitamin d, iposomal vitamin C, N-acetylcysteine, selenomethionine and instead include theanine?

2. Did you yourself get the intravenous vitamin C? Where in the timeline of the immune competence theory did you get it (before starting with the activation stack or after some weeks of taking the stack)?

3. You write that you are no longer taking your cascade stack? For how long had you taken it? Did you experience any symptoms when not anymore taking SAM-e and Alpha GPC?

4. Where in the timeline of your experiments did you work on strengthening immunocompetence? Had you already stopped with the cascade stack?

5. You wrote that you were hoping to resolve your neutropenia by following the immune competence therapy. Have you had any tests done afterwards? Has there been any change in your neutrophil count?

6. Over what time span did you do the immune competence therapy (you wrote that you did not exactly follow it as you described, but just to get a rough idea for how many weeks you took the activation stack)?

Thank you!
BB
Used to have brain fog, flue-like symptoms, un-refreshing sleep, extreme exhaustion, muscle and joint pain, digestive problems, social anxiety, urge to urinate frequently.
Used niacin in the past. Now using nanna1's maintenance stack. Exhaustion and brain fog now main problem. 3-day POIS cycle

nanna1

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2020, 11:23:14 PM »
Hi BluesBrother,

These are good questions. I hope I can answer them.
1. How does your prepack in this topic relate to your previous prepack? In particular, why do you exclude paracetamol, diclofenac, vitamin d, iposomal vitamin C, N-acetylcysteine, selenomethionine and instead include theanine?
  The Betaherpesvirae stack is more focused on blocking the trigger. It is almost like taking alpha and beta inhibitors except without the dangers/side-effects of inhibiting the adrenaline receptors.

  The pre-pack for the immune therapy is more focused on enhancing NK cell function during and after sexual activity. It is an attempt to recreate a normal immune response to orgasm. In a normal sexual activity, endorphins, NK cells and nitric oxide all increase. Technically speaking, COX inhibitors like indomethacin are very strong enhancers of NK cell number and activity since they prevent immune suppression by PGE2, but I know some people are turned-off by drugs. I tried to keep the pre-pack for the immune therapy minimal. But vitamin D, vitamin C, N-acetylcyteine are all helpful for boosting the immune system in general.

2. Did you yourself get the intravenous vitamin C? Where in the timeline of the immune competence theory did you get it (before starting with the activation stack or after some weeks of taking the stack)?
  Yes, I got a 1g vitamin C IV (on a Thursday) followed by a 5g vitamin C IV (on a Friday) 24 hours later. This was done twice in consecutive weeks. So 4 vitamin C IVs total. The immediate effect of the IV was instant inflammation (warm achy pain) relief throughout my entire body. I did not realized I had so much inflammation until I felt better afterwards. But I did not notice any effect on other symptoms. It's hard to know what the full effect of the IV was since I did not take medical blood test afterwards. The ascorbate IVs were really expensive, so I did have money for medical test.
If I could do it over I would take all 4 IVs consecutively (one IV per day for 4 days) and take copper gluconate 3 hours prior to each injection.

3. You write that you are no longer taking your cascade stack? For how long had you taken it? Did you experience any symptoms when not anymore taking SAM-e and Alpha GPC?
  I took the POIS cascade stack from mid 2017 to Jan 2019. I cycled off a few times and experimented with the Betaherpesvirae stack. But I stayed mostly consistent with the POIS cascade stack. I started taking methyl-donors and B-vitamins 2015. When I first stopped taking the methyl-donors I did experience a return of all my POIS symptoms except for exercise-DOMS. Originally, I thought that the POIS cascade stack cured my IBS, but when I cycled off my old stack for too long the IBS would return slowly but with less intensity than before.

4. Where in the timeline of your experiments did you work on strengthening immunocompetence? Had you already stopped with the cascade stack?
  I started experimenting with megadosing vitamin C while I was still taking my stack. I was also drinking Matcha green tea (high caffeine, high gallic acid tannins) for a short period of time while still on the old stack. I stopped the POIS cascade stack completely in Feb. 2019, and focused entirely on building up my immune system.

5. You wrote that you were hoping to resolve your neutropenia by following the immune competence therapy. Have you had any tests done afterwards? Has there been any change in your neutrophil count?
  The neutrophil count is a test that I should do. During the time I was boosting the immune system with supplements, I was monitoring my acne (face) and eczema (foot). Acne usually occurs when bacteria enters the skin. Then white blood cells (neutrophils) leave the blood vessels and invade the skin to attack the infection. The white blood cells are part of what give pimple their white color. I used to get acne/pimples in the days following orgasm as one of my POIS symptoms. As my acne cleared up, that gave me evidence that my neutrophil function had normalized. Certain foods (chocolate, dairy, high-sugar) that used to give me acne, no longer do.

  I also used to have eczema on the heel of my foot. This was not associated with orgasm or any related activity. Both the acne and eczema that I have dealt with since I was a teenager have cleared up. And I never get acne now, no matter what junk-food I eat :). Side note: I did use tea tree oil on the eczema also.

  These are indirect (and free) measures of neutrophil activity. But I've mainly been avoiding spending money on more medical test.

6. Over what time span did you do the immune competence therapy (you wrote that you did not exactly follow it as you described, but just to get a rough idea for how many weeks you took the activation stack)?
  I started experimenting around early Feb 2019 with beta-glucan, AHCC, Immune Senescence Protection Formula, NK Cell Activator, oral-vitamin C, melatonin, etc... I didn't know what would work, so I randomly tried different combinations and different doses.

  I found out early on that AHCC cause (short duration) random localized nerve pain and muscle twitches. Mega-dose-vitamin C cause rhinitis. High-dose melatonin caused itching. I interpreted these symptoms as the supplements activating different parts of my immune system. These symptoms were mind enough to tolerate and did not cause fatigue or cognitive issues. So I started trying to maximize the symptoms with different supplement combinations. As the (non-POIS) symptoms started to disappear, I increased the dose to restore maximal immune activation and symptoms. Sometimes I cycled off-on the supplements to restore and increase flu-like symptoms. The side-effects of melatonin cause me to stop taking it.

  Later on I added caffeine and citrulline as a pre-pack and tried GABA supplements (theanine and taurine) to prevent caffeine jitters. I all found that copper gluconate was helpful. However, there were many other supplements I tried that I can't tell if they had any effect.

  These experiments occurred mostly outside of POIS. But I notice something weird around April/May 2019. When the vitamin C "wore off" (I could no longer produce rhinitis by increasing the dose), the rhinitis that I used to experience during POIS disappeared. I never experience rhinitis during POIS again.
  The same effect happen with AHCC and the nerve-pain/muscle-twitch. Once increasing my AHCC dose could no longer produce nerve pain, the pains and muscle-twitch that I used to experience during POIS also disapeared.
  The same effect happened with copper. Copper initially caused diarrhea and stomach pain in the area where I would normally get IBS, with a little nausea. But after a while of cycling copper on-and-off and gradually taking it more often throughout the day, the stomach problems caused by copper went away. And the IBS from POIS also went away at the same time.
  These effects were permanent (or at least still effective) and continue to last several months after I no longer take these supplements. The time frame for remission of POIS symptoms varied for each combo of supplements and symptoms. For example, it took about 2 month for AHCC to cause symptom remission, but during that time the (non-POIS) symptoms increased before they decreased. For copper, it took a little over two weeks, but I started experiencing a reduction in stomach problems after 1 week. The immune therapy reflects more so the lessons learned rather than a exact description of all the things that I experimented with. I hope that clarifies things a bit :)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 12:31:08 AM by nanna1 »
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

certainlypois2

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2020, 07:59:25 PM »
nanna1, what is your copper gluconate brand.    I know experience will differ but I am not feeling any die off effect or stomach issues from using copper gluconate.  I have vitamin shoppe brand but I saw somewhere online not to trust them.

swell

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2020, 06:05:34 PM »
damn, what have I missed ... this is a 'gem' of a thread, nanna1 has created a bevvy of precious insights, that one cant find anywhere else.
POIS Free, 1+ yrs despite daily o's.
Pois symptoms: Peripheral (Skin: Urticaria, dryness, pale skin), Nerve weakness, Muscle weakness + Mental (CNS: Brain Fog, Irritation, Isolation, Speech lethargy, Anxiety).
Other conditions: ASD, ADD, GAD.