Author Topic: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy  (Read 33878 times)

Hopeoneday

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency theory of POIS
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2019, 08:57:32 AM »
Hi Nana, what did you done to improve yours imunodefiency, neutropenia,
and "NK" cels response of inate imunity?
Dr-pois.

demografx

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency theory of POIS
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2019, 06:40:05 PM »

nanna1 or nanna
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

nanna1

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency theory of POIS
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2019, 01:10:59 AM »
The immune therapy that I was doing can be found here: Immune competency therapy
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

nebraska

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency theory of POIS
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2019, 07:28:43 AM »
really nice work, nanna.
thank you for your efforts.
i was trying a supplement IP-6 for a 3 weeks.i was made it in a line with my iron-overload theory(i have high levels of total serum iron but low-middle transferrin saturation and low levels of ferritin) and my pois started about the time when i was using oral iron supplementation(i have a theory that pois is a result of wrong digestion and Fenton's reagent cause of that in my body, oxidative stress).
 So, ip-6 is a great immune stimulator and it made my joints a loooot inflamed in a level i couldnot move
so i cant follow this method
but i had a little improvement in my pois conditions due that so( i dont know its a result of iron chelation or immune activation )

i have some improvement also with supplements that reduces access iron to tissues(ala, quercetin)


update: however i could suppose that all my cognitive problems(endogenious depression preceding pois) started with prep sulfasalazine(immunosuppresor) but i had canceled it 3 years ago - my immune system had come back(joints inflamed) but pois didnot managed
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 05:19:07 AM by nebraska »

kingfisher

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2020, 04:41:23 AM »
Hi Nanna1,

Wow. For the subset of POISER's who feel the immune response is involved in POIS, I think it is seriously worth validating your hypothesis.

 I'll try to get the lymphocyte panel test done. Am I correct in understanding that this test will be enough to reveal the state of the innate immune system? The panel measures absolute NK cells and  absolute levels of various other T/B lymphocytes.   
 How to check non-memory T cell counts?
 Also are IgM antibodies from B cells considered part of the innate immune response? Per your model, if pathogen reactivation is treated as a new infection would B cell IgM antibody (non-specific) also rise from day 4-5? 

 In my case I feel the immune response within a few minutes sometimes in just a couple hours. I always thought because the innate immune response reacted immediately after an ejaculation that's why I felt an immune response that quickly. But your model proposes that the innate immune system itself is suppressed. So per your model, if the innate immune cells are suppressed what part of the immune response could be the reason that makes us feel sick in a short time?
 
Maybe my questions are really dumb! I am trying to see if lab tests can reveal something about innate immune system suppression in my case. I think I need to specifically check my blood urea and neutrophils the day after an O. But the many times I had tested  for urea or WBC counts -  neutrophils/basophils/eosonophils/monocytes/lymphocytes (not specifically tested for days I was having POIS) there had been nothing abnormal in my test results.

Thanks.
 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 07:56:29 AM by kingfisher »

nanna1

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2020, 11:30:34 PM »
In my case I feel the immune response within a few minutes sometimes in just a couple hours. I always thought because the innate immune response reacted immediately after an ejaculation that's why I felt an immune response that quickly. But your model proposes that the innate immune system itself is suppressed. So per your model, if the innate immune cells are suppressed what part of the immune response could be the reason that makes us feel sick in a short time?
  Hi kingfisher, sorry for the late reply. That is an awesome question! I think that it is mainly Natural Killer cells that are blocked in POIS. But other innate cells (monocytes, macrophages, etc...) are not blocked. Let me explain:

Basically, I think that the POIS hypothesis in the following paper is correct but incomplete:
"Postorgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS) in a Chinese Man: No Proof for IgE‐Mediated Allergy to Semen" (Jia Yin, et al, 2015)

  In that Jia Yin et. al. paper, they focus mostly on showing that IgE allergy is not involved in the POIS of one patient. However, towards the end of the paper, they suggest that POIS could be caused by low beta-endorphin signaling (low endorphins or low mu-opioid receptors). The reasoning follows:

  Epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noreadrenaline) are released during sex, exercise, fear (fight or flight), chronic stress, etc... They stimulate orgasm, ejaculation, skin-flushing, and increased heart-rate.
In general, these neurotransmitters suppress the immune system (see post). Since adrenaline and norepinephrine levels fall during sleep, sleep deprivation also causes high adrenaline levels and immune suppression (Ref).

  However, during sex and exercise the immune system is enhanced because beta-endorphins block the immune suppression effects of adrenaline/noradrenaline. Beta-endorphin also stimulates the innate immune response to viruses and inhibits viral replication. See: Ref1, Ref2
For example:
"We found that beta-endorphin but not dynorphin could stimulate NK cell activity... beta-endorphin appears to be one of the signals that is induced in the brain at the CS recall step of the conditioned response to trigger the elevation of NK cell activity."
-Expression of the conditioned NK cell activity is beta-endorphin dependent
Endorphin receptors are not the only receptors that block adrenaline/stress induced NK cell immune suppression (see post).

  However, if the endorphin signaling is blocked, then we should not expect an increase in NK cells from sex. My hypothesis is that a pathogen reactivates during adrenaline signaling. This same pathogen inhibits the endorphin signaling needed to increase (sex-induce) NK cell levels. So when the pathogen is triggered, the NK cell response is inhibited simultaneously.

  According to this model, NK cells do not need to drop to cause POIS. The only thing that is needed to cause POIS is for NK cell to fail to increase during orgasm (or pathogen reactivation). In healthy non-POIS people, NK cells should increase whenever a pathogen is attempting to spread and/or whenever endorphins are released. If NK cells stay normal or fall during orgasm, the person will become ill.

  I think the symptoms come from monocyte/macrophage/neutrophils cells releasing chemokines and their effects. The macrophages detect the virus and start releasing chemokines to induce chemotaxis of NK cells (draw NK cells to the site of infection). But no NK cells arrive. So the virus replicates, and macrophages release even more chemokines than before.
The cycle of failed NK cell response and increased chemokine release continues until an adaptive CD8+ T cell response can replace the NK cells. See "inefficient NK cell response" below:

  It is possible that in the absence of an efficient NK cell response, neutrophils could become overstressed and depleted trying to fight the pathogen. So in POISers, I would expect a lack of an increase in NK cells due to sex as the main metric to test. Other metrics around spermine production may show up in test. But also a secondary metric could be a gradual decrease in blood neutrophils during the POIS episode. The stomach problems that many people focus on is probably one side-effect of this aberrant immune function but most likely not the cause.

  I currently, can experience 4 orgasm a week and function normally without supplements or drugs. My previous symptoms (before the immune therapy) were severe (see medical info post). My only symptoms now are an itchy feeling on the left side of my face and an occasional compulsion to scratch it. I can't prove that the therapy was the reason for the disappearance of almost all my symptoms, but my improvement is correlated in time with the immune therapy. Let me know if you have any other ideas, questions, comments...
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 06:56:37 PM by nanna1 »
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

BluesBrother

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2020, 02:13:53 PM »
Hi nanna1, thanks a lot for your detailed posts and explanations! I have a few questions:

1. How does your prepack in this topic relate to your previous prepack? In particular, why do you exclude paracetamol, diclofenac, vitamin d, iposomal vitamin C, N-acetylcysteine, selenomethionine and instead include theanine?

2. Did you yourself get the intravenous vitamin C? Where in the timeline of the immune competence theory did you get it (before starting with the activation stack or after some weeks of taking the stack)?

3. You write that you are no longer taking your cascade stack? For how long had you taken it? Did you experience any symptoms when not anymore taking SAM-e and Alpha GPC?

4. Where in the timeline of your experiments did you work on strengthening immunocompetence? Had you already stopped with the cascade stack?

5. You wrote that you were hoping to resolve your neutropenia by following the immune competence therapy. Have you had any tests done afterwards? Has there been any change in your neutrophil count?

6. Over what time span did you do the immune competence therapy (you wrote that you did not exactly follow it as you described, but just to get a rough idea for how many weeks you took the activation stack)?

Thank you!
BB
Used to have brain fog, flue-like symptoms, un-refreshing sleep, extreme exhaustion, muscle and joint pain, digestive problems, social anxiety, urge to urinate frequently.
Used niacin in the past. Now using nanna1's maintenance stack. Exhaustion and brain fog now main problem. 3-day POIS cycle

nanna1

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2020, 11:23:14 PM »
Hi BluesBrother,

These are good questions. I hope I can answer them.
1. How does your prepack in this topic relate to your previous prepack? In particular, why do you exclude paracetamol, diclofenac, vitamin d, iposomal vitamin C, N-acetylcysteine, selenomethionine and instead include theanine?
  The Betaherpesvirae stack is more focused on blocking the trigger. It is almost like taking alpha and beta inhibitors except without the dangers/side-effects of inhibiting the adrenaline receptors.

  The pre-pack for the immune therapy is more focused on enhancing NK cell function during and after sexual activity. It is an attempt to recreate a normal immune response to orgasm. In a normal sexual activity, endorphins, NK cells and nitric oxide all increase. Technically speaking, COX inhibitors like indomethacin are very strong enhancers of NK cell number and activity since they prevent immune suppression by PGE2, but I know some people are turned-off by drugs. I tried to keep the pre-pack for the immune therapy minimal. But vitamin D, vitamin C, N-acetylcyteine are all helpful for boosting the immune system in general.

2. Did you yourself get the intravenous vitamin C? Where in the timeline of the immune competence theory did you get it (before starting with the activation stack or after some weeks of taking the stack)?
  Yes, I got a 1g vitamin C IV (on a Thursday) followed by a 5g vitamin C IV (on a Friday) 24 hours later. This was done twice in consecutive weeks. So 4 vitamin C IVs total. The immediate effect of the IV was instant inflammation (warm achy pain) relief throughout my entire body. I did not realized I had so much inflammation until I felt better afterwards. But I did not notice any effect on other symptoms. It's hard to know what the full effect of the IV was since I did not take medical blood test afterwards. The ascorbate IVs were really expensive, so I did have money for medical test.
If I could do it over I would take all 4 IVs consecutively (one IV per day for 4 days) and take copper gluconate 3 hours prior to each injection.

3. You write that you are no longer taking your cascade stack? For how long had you taken it? Did you experience any symptoms when not anymore taking SAM-e and Alpha GPC?
  I took the POIS cascade stack from mid 2017 to Jan 2019. I cycled off a few times and experimented with the Betaherpesvirae stack. But I stayed mostly consistent with the POIS cascade stack. I started taking methyl-donors and B-vitamins 2015. When I first stopped taking the methyl-donors I did experience a return of all my POIS symptoms except for exercise-DOMS. Originally, I thought that the POIS cascade stack cured my IBS, but when I cycled off my old stack for too long the IBS would return slowly but with less intensity than before.

4. Where in the timeline of your experiments did you work on strengthening immunocompetence? Had you already stopped with the cascade stack?
  I started experimenting with megadosing vitamin C while I was still taking my stack. I was also drinking Matcha green tea (high caffeine, high gallic acid tannins) for a short period of time while still on the old stack. I stopped the POIS cascade stack completely in Feb. 2019, and focused entirely on building up my immune system.

5. You wrote that you were hoping to resolve your neutropenia by following the immune competence therapy. Have you had any tests done afterwards? Has there been any change in your neutrophil count?
  The neutrophil count is a test that I should do. During the time I was boosting the immune system with supplements, I was monitoring my acne (face) and eczema (foot). Acne usually occurs when bacteria enters the skin. Then white blood cells (neutrophils) leave the blood vessels and invade the skin to attack the infection. The white blood cells are part of what give pimple their white color. I used to get acne/pimples in the days following orgasm as one of my POIS symptoms. As my acne cleared up, that gave me evidence that my neutrophil function had normalized. Certain foods (chocolate, dairy, high-sugar) that used to give me acne, no longer do.

  I also used to have eczema on the heel of my foot. This was not associated with orgasm or any related activity. Both the acne and eczema that I have dealt with since I was a teenager have cleared up. And I never get acne now, no matter what junk-food I eat :). Side note: I did use tea tree oil on the eczema also.

  These are indirect (and free) measures of neutrophil activity. But I've mainly been avoiding spending money on more medical test.

6. Over what time span did you do the immune competence therapy (you wrote that you did not exactly follow it as you described, but just to get a rough idea for how many weeks you took the activation stack)?
  I started experimenting around early Feb 2019 with beta-glucan, AHCC, Immune Senescence Protection Formula, NK Cell Activator, oral-vitamin C, melatonin, etc... I didn't know what would work, so I randomly tried different combinations and different doses.

  I found out early on that AHCC cause (short duration) random localized nerve pain and muscle twitches. Mega-dose-vitamin C cause rhinitis. High-dose melatonin caused itching. I interpreted these symptoms as the supplements activating different parts of my immune system. These symptoms were mind enough to tolerate and did not cause fatigue or cognitive issues. So I started trying to maximize the symptoms with different supplement combinations. As the (non-POIS) symptoms started to disappear, I increased the dose to restore maximal immune activation and symptoms. Sometimes I cycled off-on the supplements to restore and increase flu-like symptoms. The side-effects of melatonin cause me to stop taking it.

  Later on I added caffeine and citrulline as a pre-pack and tried GABA supplements (theanine and taurine) to prevent caffeine jitters. I all found that copper gluconate was helpful. However, there were many other supplements I tried that I can't tell if they had any effect.

  These experiments occurred mostly outside of POIS. But I notice something weird around April/May 2019. When the vitamin C "wore off" (I could no longer produce rhinitis by increasing the dose), the rhinitis that I used to experience during POIS disappeared. I never experience rhinitis during POIS again.
  The same effect happen with AHCC and the nerve-pain/muscle-twitch. Once increasing my AHCC dose could no longer produce nerve pain, the pains and muscle-twitch that I used to experience during POIS also disapeared.
  The same effect happened with copper. Copper initially caused diarrhea and stomach pain in the area where I would normally get IBS, with a little nausea. But after a while of cycling copper on-and-off and gradually taking it more often throughout the day, the stomach problems caused by copper went away. And the IBS from POIS also went away at the same time.
  These effects were permanent (or at least still effective) and continue to last several months after I no longer take these supplements. The time frame for remission of POIS symptoms varied for each combo of supplements and symptoms. For example, it took about 2 month for AHCC to cause symptom remission, but during that time the (non-POIS) symptoms increased before they decreased. For copper, it took a little over two weeks, but I started experiencing a reduction in stomach problems after 1 week. The immune therapy reflects more so the lessons learned rather than a exact description of all the things that I experimented with. I hope that clarifies things a bit :)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 12:31:08 AM by nanna1 »
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

certainlypois2

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2020, 07:59:25 PM »
nanna1, what is your copper gluconate brand.    I know experience will differ but I am not feeling any die off effect or stomach issues from using copper gluconate.  I have vitamin shoppe brand but I saw somewhere online not to trust them.

swell

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2020, 06:05:34 PM »
damn, what have I missed ... this is a 'gem' of a thread, nanna1 has created a bevvy of precious insights, that one cant find anywhere else.
POIS Free, 1+ yrs despite daily o's (with occasional pois episodes)
Pois symptoms: Peripheral (Skin: Urticaria, dryness, pale blotchy skin), Exasperation of: [Nerve weakness, Muscle weakness + Mental (CNS: Brain Fog, Irritation, Isolation, Speech lethargy, Anxiety)].
Other conditions: ASD, ADD, GA

demografx

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2020, 06:38:42 PM »
nanna1, thank you!
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Muon

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency theory of POIS
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2020, 06:42:19 PM »
However, if these immunosupressing molecules (PGE2, spermidine, spermine,etc...) increase in other parts of the body during sexual activity, they could suppress the protective NK cell function and ultimately allow pathogens to reactivate.

Table 5 polyamines

nanna1

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2020, 08:58:23 PM »
nanna1, what is your copper gluconate brand.    I know experience will differ but I am not feeling any die off effect or stomach issues from using copper gluconate.  I have vitamin shoppe brand but I saw somewhere online not to trust them.
Hi certainlypois2,

I used the GNC brand copper gluconate. I took it on an empty stomach with water. A few times, I took it with food. But food reduced the effect. Eventually, taking copper on an empty stomach no longer produced stomach problems and the POIS-related stomach problems also went away. I was also taking AHCC, vitamin D3, and liposomal vitamin C at the time. There is the possibility that liposomal vitamin C helps copper disinfect.

If stomach issues are not part of your POIS symptoms, then copper may not produce a die off effect. Or the effect may be mild. I suspect that POIS suppresses the immune system temporarily. And during this immune suppression, some (but not all) latent infections have the opportunity to reactivate and trigger and aberrant. Copper's disinfecting properties are not dependent on the immune system. Copper, at sufficient concentrations, can kill certain types of bacteria, viruses and fungi directly. And ascorbate (vitamin C) increases the efficiency of this disinfecting property (see post).

I'm just going to dump this here for anyone who is following the discussion:
  The same effect happened with copper. Copper initially caused diarrhea and stomach pain in the area where I would normally get IBS, with a little nausea. But after a while of cycling copper on-and-off and gradually taking it more often throughout the day, the stomach problems caused by copper went away. And the IBS from POIS also went away at the same time.
  These effects were permanent (or at least still effective) and continue to last several months after I no longer take these supplements. The time frame for remission of POIS symptoms varied for each combo of supplements and symptoms. For example, it took about 2 month for AHCC to cause symptom remission, but during that time the (non-POIS) symptoms increased before they decreased. For copper, it took a little over two weeks, but I started experiencing a reduction in stomach problems after 1 week. The immune therapy "stack" reflects more so the lessons learned rather than a exact description of all the things that I experimented with. I hope that clarifies things a bit :)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 09:03:37 PM by nanna1 »
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

Iwillbeatthis

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2020, 03:39:35 PM »
Hi Nanna

Where did you buy the Copper Oxide from i cannot find it anywhere

Thanks

Iwillbeatthis

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2020, 09:00:53 AM »
Also is the liposomal vitamin C necessary compared with just using Ascorbic acid powder high doses? If so then why is it more beneficial?

Hopeoneday

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2020, 01:08:09 PM »
I think that liposomal vit c is 60%-70%  more absorable.
Dr-pois.

nanna1

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2020, 01:39:54 PM »
  Yes Hopeoneday and Iwillbeatthis, that is the reason! Megadosing vitamin C (ascorbate) powder saturates at about 250mg oral dose because of self-regulated absorption. Anything higher than 250mg is excreted in the bowel or urine (not absorbed).

Figure 2. Intracellular vitamin C concentrations (millimolar) in circulating cells as function of dose. Neutrophils, monocytes, platelets, and lymphocytes... -A new recommended dietary allowance of vitamin C for healthy young women

  Liposomes (encapsulated) partially bypass self-regulated absorption, so you can absorb twice as much vitamin C as the un-encapsulated ascorbic acid powder. But intravenous (IV) vitamin C has the highest absorption.

Figure 2. Plasma concentrations of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) before (time = 0 minute) and after: (1) oral administration of placebo, (2) oral administration of 4 g of vitamin C encapsulated in liposomes, (3) oral administration of 4 g of unencapsulated vitamin C, and (4) intravenous administration of 4 g of vitamin C.
-Liposomal-encapsulated Ascorbic Acid: Influence on Vitamin C Bioavailability and Capacity to Protect Against Ischemia-Reperfusion Injury (2016)

Also, liposomes last longer in the blood stream to give you more time to absorb ascorbate.

-The Levels of Ascorbic Acid in Blood and Mononuclear Blood Cells After Oral Liposome-Encapsulated and Oral Non-Encapsulated Vitamin C Supplementation, Taken Without and with IV Hydrocortisone (Riordan Clinic, 2019)

  I personally did not notice any affect from megadosing regular vitamin C powder (single). I did notice an effect from taking liposomal ascorbate spaced 4 to 6 hours apart. This is not a fair comparison because I did not take multiple megadosed vitamin C or think about the time spacing. So maybe if you megadose the powder and space it 5 hours apart, you can get a similar effect (see multi-dose timing figure). I do not know if that will change things. It might work! I have been looking into sodium ascorbyl phosphate, which is the type of vitamin C used in cosmetics, but I have not tried this. If anyone has an idea on how to increase vitamin C absorption, please let me know!

  I have notice recently that the original sources that I used for copper gluconate, zinc, vitamin C and ImmunoComplex have all sold out. It seems like there is high demand or shorter supply for immune boosting supplements now. But there are other sources on the Amazon and Quality of Life websites.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 03:28:41 PM by nanna1 »
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

Iwillbeatthis

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2020, 03:26:25 PM »
Ok thanks for the clarification Nanna! Also somehow I didn't realise that all the supplements in the ImmunoComplex were just part of one supplement. Its good you mentioned that because I was about to go and buy them all separately!

I wasn't reacting well to methyl folate as I don't think my body can tolerate methylated vitamins. So instead I bought a pre metabolised form of folate - Folinic Acid 800mcg. The folinic acid did make me nauesous and instantly fatigued(no supplement has done this to me before) I then nap and a wake up feel a bit better. I then tried half a capsule the same thing basically happens and I need to nap instantly it does seem to throw me off balance also but at the same time I feel it may be doing some benefit in the long run(I need to test this more). It does seem better for me than the methyl - the methyl gave extreme brain fog and anxiety. Do you have any advice for me on why this may be happening? Maybe it is due to folate receptor autoantibodies or I just have a problem absorbing folate, I've also heard virus can bind to folate receptors not sure if this is true or not?

I know many practitioners say folic acid is bad is it really that bad? I remember taking it years ago and not having any reaction to it.

Thanks
 

nanna1

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2020, 11:58:56 AM »
Hey Iwillbeatthis,

  I originally took the supplements in ImmunoComplex as separate supplements from different suppliers/companies. Afterward, when I was writing the original post, I discovered that the suppler for my AHCC created an immunity building stack which had all the things that I found was helpful. So that is why I list ImmunoComplex.

  I tried not to take greater than 200mcg per day for vitamin B9 (folate). I think that taking less than 200mcg is ideal. If it is improving your sleep, then that is a good thing!  :)

  There is a stigma in the medical community against taking B vitamins because most supplement companies sell the vitamins with concentrations that are way too high. It is hard to find a vitamin supplement with a reasonable concentration. Most people can handle high concentrations for a short period of time, but taking these supplements at higher than 100% daily recommended allowance can create other problems. Anything can be overdosed.
   About vitamin B6: The amount of vitamin B6 here (2mg) is roughly 100% of the US recommended daily allowance (RDA). My daily B6 consumption does not exceed 25mg as an upper limit. However, typical branded B6 and B complex supplements may exceed 200mg (10,000%) and are toxic when taken daily.
   About folate B9: (200 microgram) is a safe daily dose. For folate-cancer data, please see Table 1: cancer endpoints under the Outcomes heading.
   About vitamin B12: B12 has an extremely low toxicity. Between 50 to 1000 mcg can be taken per day.

  I put C4 as a source in the therapy prepack to make it easier and less expensive to stack caffeine, citrulline, N-acetyl-tyrosine. It also contains some nitrates, which is helpful. But if you can't find C4, then other sources that contain the ingredients should have the same effect. It should be noted that C4 has 300mg of caffeine, so the dose should be reduced by one-half or one-third to get a caffeine dose between 150mg and 100mg. 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 12:01:12 PM by nanna1 »
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

hapl

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Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2020, 01:22:59 AM »
Right now immune support items are harder to get. What would be the minimum daily stack that you feel would be effective? I've had many immune problems (constant brain fog) and POIS makes them significantly worse - but it feels like allowing latent problems to worsen, which supports the immune function theory I would think.

Could you start off with just AHCC (does the source matter? is this better than cordyceps or lion's mane?). Cycle on and off as you recommend. Not counting the prepack, what other supplements are the most important? Copper gluconate seems harder to find that glycinate - is it important to use that form? Same with lipo C - there are so many competing products on Amazon and hard to tell if they're real liposomal and if they're all the same.

Your initial stack was very helpful to me, but I've been dealing with a lot of immune and musculoskeletal issues and that seems to have only gotten me partway. The immune theory is fascinating to me.

Thanks!