Author Topic: Histamines for POIS? (Thread about Antihistamines too)  (Read 71063 times)

biocentric

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Histamines for POIS? (Thread about Antihistamines too)
« on: April 03, 2011, 11:56:44 AM »
Can Histamines help POIS? I dont know.

Heres some Histamine information
Histamine is a hormone/chemical transmitter and important protein that is involved in local immune responses, regulates stomach acid production and acts as a mediator in allergic reactions. This is the bad part we most often read about.

Histamine has many good functions too.
* It plays an important role as it is released as a neurotransmitter, necessary for our brain cells to "communicate" properly. Neurotransmitters are chemicals that are used to relay, amplify and modulate electrical signals between a neuron and other cell.

* Histamine is necessary to modulate sleep.
* During an orgasm, histamine is released, and has been connected to the sex flush among women. However, men with high histamine levels may suffer from premature ejaculations.
* Classified schizophrenia patients often have low blood levels of histamine. This can be a side effect of their antipsychotic medication. When this seemed to be the case, as histamine levels were increased, their health improved.

What causes allergies?
Allergies are caused by an immune response to a normally harmless substance, i.e. pollen or dust. When these come into contact with specific antigens in our blood (part of the white blood cells, so-called mast cells) this triggers a response and histamine is released.

The release of histamine causes several allergic symptoms, for it contributes to an inflammatory response and causes constrictions of smooth muscle.
* The allergic reaction causes blood fluids to enter the area, causing swelling. (Vasoactive).
* The constrictions of the smooth muscle are seen during an asthma attack. The muscles surrounding the airway constrict, causing shortness of breath.

An allergic reaction is a response that should not be happening because the substance that triggers is should not be dangerous to us. Sometimes we have the "luxury" to allow our immune system to run its course, but then we have to sniffle our way through the pollen seasons.
Sometimes a harmless looking allergic reaction may develop into a potentially life threatening situation. Take for example, a bee sting.
Anti-histamines are widely available nowadays, and help the body to overcome its immunological "mistakes".

Histamine and amines (histamine-like substances) can be found in foods, but also develop after cooking and storage. This happens especially with fermented foods, but sometimes during normal cooking procedures.
Amines are formed from specific amino acids that are present (to a certain agree) in all foods.

The most common food amines are:
* Histamine
* Phenylethylamine
* Serotin
* Tyramine
* Dopamine

Allergic reactions to these amines can be:
* Vaso-active affects the width of blood vessels
* Vaso-dilating widens the blood vessels
* Vaso-constricting narrows the blood vessels

Even foods that don't contain histamine can trigger an allergic reactions, but often additives are the culprits.
Food products that are known to cause allergies are:
Raw egg white, shellfish, strawberries, citrus fruit and pineapple, chocolate, tomatoes, alcohol, fish and pork.

People usually react pretty soon, during or after the meal, and untreated, the reaction may last 24-48 hours.
When people react e.g. because of tyramine causes, the symptoms are different.

Alcohol consumption can provide histamine, trigger its release, and prevent a histamine breakdown.
Histamine and alcohol share the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme during the metabolism stage.
We've seen the important part histamine plays in the functioning of our body - we can't live without it.
But the moment an allergic reaction sets in, it seems to create havoc.
We do well to pay attention, and ask the advice of a specialist if we become allergic, either to food, dust or "unknown" things.

Every new allergic reaction may be stronger than the previous one, and potentially more dangerous.

Don't think it "will pass" or go away by itself. It won't.
If you are allergic, you'll need that anti-histamine "backup" at home, in order to stop the "attack" in its tracks. Don't self-medicate. Ask your doctor's advice. He may want to do some specific tests, in order to prescribe specific medication.
Knowing what to do when you experience an allergic reaction, treat it accordingly (with the right medication) will save you a (frightening) trip to the first aid department.


What are your thoughts/experiences?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 02:35:47 PM by berlin1984 »

Daveman

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2011, 01:57:44 PM »
First of all, WOW. Very in depth and in "well expressed layman's terms".  You normally would have to look in a number of referencial sources to find all this information and later  make the effort to "make it legible".

One thing interested me. Do you have any idea why, or is there some explanation for why "men with high histamine levels may suffer from premature ejaculations"? Or is it just one of those coincidences?

Intuitively, and particularly because it's happening to me now, I'd have the sensation that inflamation in the area of the reproductory system (in my case with the prostate) that upsets some balance in the nervous/neurological system and/or even hormonal production system in the area can cause either hyper or even hypo sensitivity to stimulation.

I know Dr. Waldinger works with women that are always on the edge of orgasm, perhaps it would be a similar mechanism. I don't remember at this moment the reason that Dr. Waldinger gives for that affliction.

Another interesting point, and one we've covered at NSF, altough perhaps more indirectly, is the potential histaminic effects of certain foods. Many of us have noted that certain foods aggravate our POIS sessions. If we are overly responsive to some "invader" surely these certain foods could exagerate the situation. Although none of the few mentioned below, seem to cause problems for me, there are additives I have identified and a few other food items.

Each person is different, and if they make close enough attention in an organised fashion, identifyong those that complicate their situation can be very helpful in reducing symptoms without taking heavier drugs and medicines.


« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 01:40:09 PM by Daveman »
WITHOUT RESEARCH THERE WILL BE NO CURE!
Sessions 5 to 9 days, mostly Flu-like, joints, digestion problems, light cognitive.
Niacin has changed my lif though, now 1 day MAX.
Somewhere in this interaction with Niacin is the answer!

b_jim

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2011, 02:27:40 PM »
I remember some guys took anti-histamine for Premature ejaculation with some succes.

I have premature ejaculation too and I don't know if histadellia (=lots of histamines) is real.
Taurine = Anti-Pois
Suffering from lyme disease

demografx

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« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 12:11:56 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Willem

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2011, 01:11:38 PM »
I've used an anti-histamine for about 6 weeks now and have run all of my typical placebo tests (varying frequency of O, exercising more, lifting weights etc.) and my muscles are doing much better.  It's difficult to get an objective measurement, but I have not run a 6 minute mile in years and was able to do so after a few weeks on anti-histamines without changing my work out pattern that much.  I just feel better.  Mind has cleared up a lot as well, but the nerve damage in my finger tips is about the same and still feel fatigue the day or two after O.   


Daveman

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2011, 01:47:49 PM »
There have been a fair number of people within our ranks who have tried anti-histamines without too much success, but I think there are few who have tried to take into account all of the possible influences and plecebo effects etc. and few likely who have carried the test through 6 weeks.

So intereting results!

Fi anti-histamines were to have an effect, one could expect more influence over the Type I reactions (mentioned in the Dr. Waldinger papers) than over the Type IV reactions. This could also explain why it has been difficult to sense a real positive effect.

Some of us are more Type I prone, others more Type IV, and most with some degree of both.

WITHOUT RESEARCH THERE WILL BE NO CURE!
Sessions 5 to 9 days, mostly Flu-like, joints, digestion problems, light cognitive.
Niacin has changed my lif though, now 1 day MAX.
Somewhere in this interaction with Niacin is the answer!

Willem

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2011, 03:03:00 PM »
Thanks Daveman, I kind of assumed as much after reading on the google wiki that anti-histamines were not effective for most POIS sufferers.  I also agree with your type I vs. type IV reaction description.  It's too bad that immunological stuff is so complex and variable. 

Hoping

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2011, 05:25:24 PM »
I've used an anti-histamine for about 6 weeks now and have run all of my typical placebo tests (varying frequency of O, exercising more, lifting weights etc.) and my muscles are doing much better.  It's difficult to get an objective measurement, but I have not run a 6 minute mile in years and was able to do so after a few weeks on anti-histamines without changing my work out pattern that much.  I just feel better.  Mind has cleared up a lot as well, but the nerve damage in my finger tips is about the same and still feel fatigue the day or two after O.   

i know it's been a few weeks since anyone posted in this thread, but what anti-histamine medication were you taking? prescription? over the counter?
Experienced POIS since 2002.
My symptoms include: brain fog, depression, physical and mental fatigue, memory problems, social anxiety, concentration problems, myalgia, inflammation.

Willem

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2011, 11:21:22 PM »
I've used an anti-histamine for about 6 weeks now and have run all of my typical placebo tests (varying frequency of O, exercising more, lifting weights etc.) and my muscles are doing much better.  It's difficult to get an objective measurement, but I have not run a 6 minute mile in years and was able to do so after a few weeks on anti-histamines without changing my work out pattern that much.  I just feel better.  Mind has cleared up a lot as well, but the nerve damage in my finger tips is about the same and still feel fatigue the day or two after O.   

i know it's been a few weeks since anyone posted in this thread, but what anti-histamine medication were you taking? prescription? over the counter?
I'm taking Claritin over the counter (in the U.S.) 24 hour (10mg Loratadine).  I've heard that other anti-histamines are stronger, but Loratadine is very benign, doesn't cross the blood brain barrier and doesn't cause drowsiness.  It continues to help the muscles, but is definitely not a cure. 

ihatepois

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2011, 10:48:56 AM »
Interestingly I think excess histamine release from orgasm is one of the causes of POIS. Please see my post here http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=153.0

Habibou

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2011, 12:31:20 PM »
My immunologist gave me Cetirizine 10 mg, he said i should try and then see.  :) not really motivated :s
Brain fog 90%  + tired all the time ,sport intolerance, fast heartbeat, colon inflammation

Daveman

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2011, 04:26:12 PM »
Well, you probably have to try at least, who knows. We can add it to our list of YES or NO.

Most probably becasue you are cognitively affected, it won'y help much, but give it a go!!

WITHOUT RESEARCH THERE WILL BE NO CURE!
Sessions 5 to 9 days, mostly Flu-like, joints, digestion problems, light cognitive.
Niacin has changed my lif though, now 1 day MAX.
Somewhere in this interaction with Niacin is the answer!

Starsky

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2011, 11:18:36 AM »
Why didnt we try all antihistamines?

H1-receptor antagonists
Main article: H1 antagonist

In common use, the term antihistamine refers only to H1 antagonists, also known as H1 antihistamines. It has been discovered that these H1-antihistamines are actually inverse agonists at the histamine H1-receptor, rather than antagonists per se.[3] Clinically, H1 antagonists are used to treat allergic reactions. Sedation is a common side effect, and some H1 antagonists, such as diphenhydramine and doxylamine, are also used to treat insomnia. However, second generation antihistamines do not cross the blood brain barrier, and as such do not cause drowsiness.

Examples:

    Azelastine
    Cetirizine
    Chlorpheniramine
    Clemastine
    Desloratadine
    Dexchlorpheniramine
    Dimenhydrinate (most commonly used as an antiemetic)
    Dimetindene
    Diphenhydramine (Benadryl)
    Doxylamine (most commonly used as an OTC sedative)
    Ebastine
    Embramine
    Fexofenadine
    Levocetirizine
    Loratadine
    Meclozine (most commonly used as an antiemetic)
    Olopatadine (used locally)
    Pheniramine
    Promethazine
    Quetiapine (antipsychotic)

[edit] H2-receptor antagonists
Main article: H2 antagonist

H2 antagonists, like H1 antagonists, are also inverse agonists and not true antagonists. H2 histamine receptors, found principally in the parietal cells of the gastric mucosa, are used to reduce the secretion of gastric acid, treating gastrointestinal conditions including peptic ulcers and gastroesophageal reflux disease.

Examples:

    Cimetidine
    Famotidine
    Lafutidine
    Nizatidine
    Ranitidine
    Roxatidine

[edit] Experimental: H3- and H4-receptor antagonists

These are experimental agents and do not yet have a defined clinical use, although a number of drugs are currently in human trials. H3-antagonists have a stimulant and nootropic effect, and are being investigated for the treatment of conditions such as ADHD, Alzheimer's disease, and schizophrenia, whereas H4-antagonists appear to have an immunomodulatory role and are being investigated as anti-inflammatory and analgesic drugs.
[edit] H3-receptor antagonists
Main article: H3 antagonist

Examples:

    A-349,821
    ABT-239
    Ciproxifan
    Clobenpropit
    Thioperamide

[edit] H4-receptor antagonists

Examples:

    Thioperamide
    JNJ 7777120
    VUF-6002

Im thinking about those H2-receptor antagonists?
So the main problem could be the histamine thats being released while Orgasm? For the vasolidation is the H2 histamine receptor responsible. Perhaps blocking it with cimetidine, ranitidine, famotidine, and nizatidine before orgasm would make a sense?

H2-receptor-mediated vasodilation contributes to postexercise hypotension
Jennifer L. McCord, Julie M. Beasley, and John R. Halliwill

Department of Human Physiology, University of Oregon, Eugene, Oregon

Submitted 5 August 2005 ; accepted in final form 25 August 2005

The early (?30 min) postexercise hypotension response after a session of aerobic exercise is due in part to H1-receptor-mediated vasodilation. The purpose of this study was to determine the potential contribution of H2-receptor-mediated vasodilation to postexercise hypotension. We studied 10 healthy normotensive men and women (ages 23.7 ± 3.4 yr) before and through 90 min after a 60-min bout of cycling at 60% peak O2 uptake on randomized control and H2-receptor antagonist days (300 mg oral ranitidine). Arterial pressure (automated auscultation), cardiac output (acetylene washin) and femoral blood flow (Doppler ultrasound) were measured. Vascular conductance was calculated as flow/mean arterial pressure. Sixty minutes postexercise on the control day, femoral (?62.3 ± 15.6%, where ? is change; P < 0.01) and systemic (?13.8 ± 5.3%; P = 0.01) vascular conductances were increased, whereas mean arterial pressure was reduced (?–6.7 ± 1.1 mmHg; P < 0.01). Conversely, 60 min postexercise with ranitidine, femoral (?9.4 ± 9.2%; P = 0.34) and systemic (?–2.8 ± 4.8%; P = 0.35) vascular conductances were not elevated and mean arterial pressure was not reduced (?–2.2 ± 1.3 mmHg; P = 0.12). Furthermore, postexercise femoral and systemic vascular conductances were lower (P < 0.05) and mean arterial pressure was higher (P = 0.01) on the ranitidine day compared with control. Ingestion of ranitidine markedly reduces vasodilation after exercise and blunts postexercise hypotension, suggesting H2-receptor-mediated vasodilation contributes to postexercise hypotension.
Modify post Inline

Habibou

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2011, 02:35:46 PM »
Histamine are 2 things  =  neurotransmitters (for the brain cells) / the histamine stocked in every other cells of the body which detects the allergen.

The release implies (among many others)=
 
- important release of adrenaline/noradrenaline (mine were very high 2 hours after the O)
- tachycardia
- the contraction of respiratory ducts (which could explain the narrow throat, the lack of   oxygen into the cells which could create muscle pain (myalgia)but also lack of oxygen in the brain cells which could create brain fog if it lasts too long time.
- the contraction of digestive ducts (which could explain the diarrhoea)and nausea, gastric reflux, belly pain.

Perhaps, the "allergic reaction due to the fact the semen stays inside the body implies a release (during a long time) of histamine, which implies the disorders above" but also "the long lasting release of noradrenaline (which is the case in my blood tests) which creates a mental exhaustion in the first place (same as brain fog).

The semen stays inside the body could explain the long lasting release of histamine (which creates a lack of it after some time) explains why a simple "antihistamine" isn't enough. This creates a neurotransmitters disorder (unbalance) and the cognitive symptoms so.
This matches and seems clear with my own case!

Histamine is linked with many others neurotransmitters,
Brain fog 90%  + tired all the time ,sport intolerance, fast heartbeat, colon inflammation

Habibou

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2011, 01:33:57 PM »
Thank you Victor! I just try to understand...
Look the additional consequences of histamine in the body : (from a french website + google translation)

-increases the power and frequency of the heartbeat (for the release of adrenaline)
-contributes to the onset of vomiting
-regulates the sleep-wake
-cuts appetite
-helps regulate body temperature, blood pressure and pain sensation
-contributes to the production of gastric acid and the functioning of the gastrointestinal  tract
-regulates the hormonal balance
-is a brain neurotransmitter

Also, I found the "histamine intolerance" on this website which appears mainly after :

-physical effort (i get that)
-sudden emotional stress (i get that)
-hormonal fluctuations (my comment :Orgasms make an hormonal fluctuation): Women often develop allergic reactions before the start of menstruation
-Infectious Diseases
-certain medications

High level histamine foods :

-alcoholic beverages (especially red wine, certain types of beer, sake) (my comment:could explain we feel very bad after little alcohol !, we perhaps have normal bad alcohol feeling + histamine intolerance
-Junkfood
-cheese (long uncured)
-sausage: sausage raw, salami, sausage
-meat: pork liver and beef (very high), Parma ham, gendarmes, Bündnerfleisch, bacon (histamine increases with maturation)
-coffee

How does the doctor he diagnosed an intolerance to histamine?
 The collection of detailed medical history (history) is the first step. The physician can help a diary kept by the patient about his diet and its disorders (where when? How?).
 
 In most cases, the doctor recommends an elimination diet(could explain why some arrives to lowerate POIS symptoms by diet?). This is for the patient to follow a diet low in histamine for about four weeks. In people with an intolerance to histamine proven, improvement of symptoms is so rapid. For a definitive diagnosis, the doctor performs a controlled oral challenge test.
 
 The following laboratory tests are performed in the diagnosis of histamine intolerance:

 measuring the level of vitamin B6
 measuring the activity of diaminoxydase
 histamine release test (stimulation test)
 measuring the level of histamine in the blood

The administration of vitamin C and vitamin B6 supplements appear to improve symptoms.
 Cromoglicic acid decreases the rate of histamine in the body and slows the release of histamine.

Last thing : The risk is particularly high in people suffering from inflammatory bowel disease or food allergy cross. Very few people suffer from a congenital deficiency of the enzyme.
 
 An excess of histamine can be caused by foods that are themselves rich in histamine or the "histamine release" that induce secretion of histamine by body cells. This results in allergic disorders. (personal case : I have many food intolerances)
sorry for the long post !
 ;D
Brain fog 90%  + tired all the time ,sport intolerance, fast heartbeat, colon inflammation

hurray

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2011, 08:52:48 AM »
Why didnt we try all antihistamines?
 

I took pretty high doses of diphenhydramine (Benadryl equivalent) for approximately 3 months, and I didn't notice any effect on my POIS symptoms. But of course that is only one antihistamine, and I am only 1 person  :)

Starsky

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2011, 11:53:30 AM »
I think we should try a combination of H1 and H2 antihistamines. For example fexofenadine and ranitidine. http://jap.physiology.org/content/101/6/1693.full

Habibou

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2011, 09:42:53 AM »
The histamine intolerance seems really possible " we get an important amount of Histamine after the O that we can t eliminate since we have a lack of diaminoxydase which kills the histamine inside the body and then creates our symptoms".

what do you think of it?
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Daveman

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2011, 09:56:51 AM »
Interesting.

Why would Niacin or XN seem to work then? It stimulates the release of histamines, which when taken just before orgasm seems to eliminate POIS symptoms.

I don't want to disagree, just try to get to understand the whole mechanism better.

Would the histamine release caused by Niacin cut something short or break some cycle?

WITHOUT RESEARCH THERE WILL BE NO CURE!
Sessions 5 to 9 days, mostly Flu-like, joints, digestion problems, light cognitive.
Niacin has changed my lif though, now 1 day MAX.
Somewhere in this interaction with Niacin is the answer!

Habibou

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Re: Histamines for POIS?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2011, 10:22:42 AM »
First, we don t know if Niacin works for everybody, so we can make Hypothesis !
Only XN works and it has a vasodilatator function, so much more than Niacin... so according to me, the XN by injection has nothing to do with Niacin consequences in the body.

I guess the XN should realize a "good O" with an injection before. And the "no histamine delete/diaminoxydase"does not need a huge amount to delete the too much of histamine.
So in this hypothesis, we would have a lack of diaminoxydase and a too much amount of histamine which can t be eliminated.
I guess it could be a part of the explanation/solution...

For example, alcohol has a lot of histamine and when we drink it even a little, we feel very bad... same for carbs/junkfood !
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 10:24:28 AM by Habibou »
Brain fog 90%  + tired all the time ,sport intolerance, fast heartbeat, colon inflammation