POIS treatment: theory & supplement stack

[nanna1]

Hi All,

Thanks for your questions:
   A list of supplement sources can be found in the The POIS Cascade stack: section of the original post. Just click on the supplement name (link) and it will take you to an Amazon.com page for each one.

   If you are trying this stack for the first time, I would recommend trying a bundled supplement with SAMe and vitamins B3, B6, B12 like this one Now SAMe 200mg, 60 tablets (enteric coated). It is easier and more cost effective to try this 4-in-1 pill for the first 30 or more days. If you see results from this, then it may be worth it to get them individually (with the superior form of B3-folate, Metafolin) as listed in the original post.

   The amount of vitamin B12 that is listed (50mcg) is a lower limit. You can take up to 1000mcg daily. (see Note: About vitamin B12 section)

Vitamin D3 is only for those who are D3 deficient. I had my D3 checked to know that I needed to take it. If you are not D3 deficient, then this can be eliminated from the stack.

I wish I you all well, and I hope you have a great New Years! 

[certainlypois2]

Sorry, I am still confused do you take 1.2g or 2.4g of alpha gpc in a day thanks.

[Jimmy]

Big thanks Nanna

Happy new year to you and to everyone !

A question: how many days you recommend I take the stack before I try to orgasm?

And also for alpha-gpc, if it is 2.4g per day, then we should take 8 bills each day? am I correct

[Nas]

Hey Nanna, Quantum, everybody,
So I've been lately noticing significant hair loss when ever I comb my hair, for the last 3 months or so. Is it possible that some of the supplements within the stack are causing hair fall side effect ?

[Quantum]

Hi Nas,

you could take a look at https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hair-loss/symptoms-causes/syc-20372926 , there are many possible causes.

Did you have a significant stressing event, 3 to 4 months before this loss had begun?

[Nas]

No, not a significant one, I don't believe so. But I had about a month of my time when I had a man bun that stretched my hair quite a bit.

[Nas]

• 4. You are right, in theory drugs that block a1A and h1H should stop POIS. I have not tried any a1A inhibitors, but I have tried h1H inhibitors (Benadryl, Claritin, Allegra) with a lot of success. Benadryl worked the best; no sneezing, runny nose, joint pain or watery eyes. However, Benadryl has a lot of side effects; long-term use is associated with dementia. Claritin and Allegra were okay. Allegra has almost no side effects. But none of the h1H blockers completely got rid of my POIS headaches. Moreover, when I stopped taking the h1H inhibitors there seemed to be a rebound in the receptors. Once the drug wore off, I was even more sensitive to allergens like pollen than before. This ?rebound? happened with all three (Benadryl, Claritin, Allegra). From my experience, unless it addresses a root cause of POIS, a drug (or herb) that solves one problem will inevitably create others. But when you don?t know the root cause and you need short-term relief, definitely try anything that helps.
  
  

Hey, Nanna
I personally did not have a success with anti-histamines; my symptoms are mainly cognitive with, a little bit of an inflammation in the urethra (I took anti-histamines before and after orgasm with no apparent success.
I wonder why you did not include a b1 supplement within your stack ? since it plays a major role in blocking H1 ?
Personally trying your stack for four months ( only taking the supplement once a day, but recently I have been trying to take them twice but usually I end up only taking them once because of my busy schedule ) I have notices significant social and cognitive improvement ( be it social more ), but I still suffer significantly on the first and second day of POIS, but after the third day everything almost goes away and I feel like recovery gets faster. So that made me think, why does methyl supplementation works for recovery for me but not when the POIS cascade happen ? ( It does lessen the severity about 30% though ). How long does the cascade last ? does it last for one or two days or is it the after affect inflammation that lasts for that long ?

[Shep]

Hello, Nana! I'm from the forum http://www.poiscenter.net/. My brothers are for this disease. There Pois 7 people, and they passed tests for hormones. Everyone has a common, this is increased progesterone and cortisol. What do you think about it? Cortisol makes inflammation, its receptors are broken? Through the inflammation, the body gets stressed and in response to stress the body stops working correctly? Thank you! And I think that many of those who took hormonal tests from this forum, were similar. Sorry for the English.

[dwight_schrute]

Hey everyone, so I love the information presented here and I have been trying the recommended supplements, but strangely cold pressed extra virgin olive oil is the only thing that has really given me noticeable relief.   But unfortunately it is only temporary (like an hour before I have to drink more olive oil).   Does anyone know how DAO factors into this process?  I know it?s supposed to help with histamine intolerance.  I?m having a hard time making sense of all this, but I feel like for me, doing everything I can to get histamine levels down would help.   

Symptoms:  constant mouth watering.  Muscle twitches all over body.  Numb feelings in cheeks and mouth area which leads to severe memory loss, fear, brain fog, social anxiety.

[nanna1]

Hi Nas, vitamin B1 is in the POIS Cascade. Please see the "The POIS Cascade stack: With food, twice daily (fat soluble):" section of the original post for details. I also discuss B1 in the explanation of the POIS Cascade Theory which gives the reason for vitamin B1 in the stack (right below the figure in the original post). If you are not seeing the full relief after the orgasm:

• It might be worth getting your vitamin D3 levels checked and then adjusting the dose accordingly.
• Make sure you take the second dose. You mentioned that sometimes you don't take the second dose. On an orgasm day I always make sure to get the second dose in, because if I miss the 2nd dose then I too would have some lingering symptoms.
• Reducing arachidonic acid (AA) intake is just as important as increasing omega-3 intake. Plants (fruits, vegetables, nuts) don't produce. This means that all your arachidonic acid (AA) is coming from animal fat. Eat leaner cuts of meat or reducing meat consumption are two strategies. Humans don't have a dietary requirement for AA. We can produce all the AA we need from the omega-6, linoleic acid.

Without knowing how you have modified the stack, this is the best answer I can give.

Hi Shep, cortisol and progesterone both use a similar mechanism to work in synergy with vitamin D3 (1,25(OH₂)D₃) to reduce inflammation [1]. In the figure below vitamin D3 (1,25(OH₂)D₃) binds to the vitamin D receptor (VDR) and cortisol binds to the glucocorticoid receptor (GCR). Both actions are required for cortisol to have an anti-inflammatory effect. When D3 levels are low cortisol has a pro-inflammatory effect.

Figure 1 from [1]: Inhibition of the p38 MAP kinase pathway by 1α,25(OH)2D3 and a mechanism for the synergistic anti-inflammatory effects of 1α,25(OH)2D3 and glucocorticoids. Proinflammatory stimuli lead to p38 MAP kinase phosphorylation and activation which subsequently induces expression of many proinflammatory proteins such as IL-6 and TNFα. Vitamin D3 induces MKP1 expression which dephosphorylates and inactivates p38 MAP kinase. Vitamin D3 stimulates glucocorticoid-induced MKP1 expression via enhanced expression of Med14.

  When vitamin D levels are low, the body tries to compensate by producing more progesterone levels [2]. So if someone has high cortisol and progesterone levels, this could mean that there is a vitamin D deficiency. Also, if inflammation is high, the body may require more vitamin D3 than the usually daily recommendation. But I think both vitamin D3 and cortisol (or progesterone) are required for the anti-inflammatory effect shown in the above figure.

  Vitamin D3 is a strong inhibitor of inflammatory cytokines and NF-kB with an IC50=0.1 uM (roughly 4000 IU per day) [3]. For details about why cytokines, NF-kB and COX-2 are important, see the figure in the original post. For information on the IC50 value see Cost effective alternatives for omega-3

One last word on vitamin D3. Because of the process depicted in the figure above, it is required for mast cell stabilization [4]. And when there is a vitamin D3 deficiency, mast cells will automatically destablize/degranulate without any external inflammatory stimulus[4].

Hi dwight_schrute, I don't know much about olive oil, but I know it contains COX-1 and COX-2 inhibitors. The figure in the original post explains why I would think a COX-2 inhibitor would be beneficial. You can increase the production of DAO with vitamin C, but I personally haven't found this to be useful.

• Vitamin D in inflammatory diseases
• Effect of vitamin D3 on production of progesterone in porcine granulosa cells by regulation of steroidogenic enzymes
• Vitamin D Inhibits COX-2 Expression and Inflammatory Response by Targeting Thioesterase Superfamily Member 4
• Vitamin D contributes to mast cell stabilization.

[Shep]

Thank you Nana!
There is not an understandable malfunction, the intestine, the sinuses have this inflammation, edema. Perhaps something is not assimilated in the intestine. Or it is a hormonal failure, but it would have turned into a familiar disease for so much time or it is a genetic malfunction in the receptors. I do not know.
I hope that the real cause of the occurrence will be found, and it will be curable!

[Muon]

I've been tested for IL-6, TNF-alpha and NF-kB multiple times all with normal outcomes.

[Nas]

Hello Nanna,
Thanks for the reply,
So yeah I did eventually realize that Benfotiamine is b1 because I mainly thought B1 was thaimine, my bad. And btw, Mine has about 250 benfotiamine and only 10mg thiamine.

1- I haven't checked my D3 levels but at the start I did take about 1000IU daily, I'm brown skinned and I live at a scorching hot area so I do assume low levels.
2- I do try to take them on O days but it still does not give full effect, usually I wait the two days period to gain the full effect.
3- I don't usually eat alot of meat, my daily diet is usually heavy on non-meat; I take eggs/cheese and bread with some tea, lunch is usually rice and broth, I don't eat the meat usually and sometimes my broth is purely vegetarian, and dinner is where I either skip it or eat what ever. I'm afraid that my ability to diet is not so good; I don't live in the most economically rich areas in the world and I don't know how to cook anyways so my food supply still comes from my mom's kitchen unfortunately. Yet I do try to eat healthier ( and greasy food make me sick anyways ).   
4- I can give you a good example of what I'm currently taking:
       Morning: 1- Sam-e 200mg
                     2- Metafolin 200mg ( even though I'm trying to cut it out currently )
                     3- b12 50 mcg
                     4- B6 1/4 of a bite of a 25mg tablet
                     5- Lecithin 1.5 ( even though I just realized that it is fat soluble )
        After meal:
                     1- Omega 3 ( 1060 EPA & 260 DHA )
                     2- Benfotiamine 250mg
                     3- D3 1000IU
5- I also wanted to tell you that I had cut the stack for ~3 days and on Wednesday I was the most energized and social since the entirety of 2017 and cognitively I was much much better. That was very weird for me and that actually made me think about, perhaps cutting the stack usage when I'm 100% ( on the third day ) ? Or it could be just a coincidence, I honestly don't, will be experimenting further. 

[nanna1]

Hi Nas,

  That's awesome you are seeing results. Keep listening to your body to see what works best for you. I take around 1800mg omega-3 EPA and 2000IU of D3 per day and on orgasms days I usually take 2 x 200mg of SAM-e (400mg). To save money, I have started taking alphaGPC, SAM-e and B1 only on orgasm days. Cutting the stack when you don't need it sounds like a useful strategy to guard against any tolerance that might develop to SAM-e. Thanks for sharing that part  . B6 should also help prevent tolerance to SAM-e.

  I'm cautious about pausing and resuming omega-3 and D3 since they take days to fully build up in the body. So for me, I always take those two supplements.

  In a new development on my side, I have started experimenting with tocotrienols which are rare forms of vitamin E. I did a post about it. It just came in two days ago and subjectively today have noticed more creativity and quickness in my thoughts. And also I feel more resilient to stress. Not much worries me. I'm not entirely sure this is due to the tocotrienols since it has only been two days, but my ultimate goal is to replace/eliminate/reduce the three most expensive parts of the stack (SAM-e/alphaGPC/omega-3). This is not something I would suggest others do. I'm more curious to see if I can reduce the number of pills I take (and save some money).

[Vandemolen]

I just ordered Nana’s stack. In The Netherlands I can’t buy MuscleTech Omega 4X SX7 Black Onyx 100 softgels. So I have the vitamine D3 and the fish oil sepatertly. I only found fish oil with 504 mg EPA and 378 mg DHA. It’s expensive and a lot of vitamins to take in a day, but let’s give this a try.

[certainlypois2]

A pill organizers makes it easier.

[nanna1]

certainlypois2, I'm taking two per day. One at breakfast and one at dinner.

what about AGPC is it a total of 1.2g a day or 2.4 g a day.

Hi certainlypois2,

Alpha-GPC is 1.2g per day. 600mg with breakfast and 600mg with dinner. Sorry for the late reply

[certainlypois2]

certainlypois2, I'm taking two per day. One at breakfast and one at dinner.

what about AGPC is it a total of 1.2g a day or 2.4 g a day.

Hi certainlypois2,

Alpha-GPC is 1.2g per day. 600mg with breakfast and 600mg with dinner. Sorry for the late reply

no problem, this will save me some money

[Rinat]

Hello. In the last week I tried to test each supplement separately, and I came to the conclusion that after taking Benfotiamine (Doctor best), which contains 150 mg of benfotiamine and 12 mg of l-leucine, I feel heartache, severe anxiety and a little fatigue. Could this be because of leucine? (I read in the early post of Quantum that BCAA competes with tryptophan, and tryptophan is very necessary)

[Quantum]

Hello. In the last week I tried to test each supplement separately, and I came to the conclusion that after taking Benfotiamine (Doctor best), which contains 150 mg of benfotiamine and 12 mg of l-leucine, I feel heartache, severe anxiety and a little fatigue. Could this be because of leucine? (I read in the early post of Quantum that BCAA competes with tryptophan, and tryptophan is very necessary)

Hi Rinat,

Tryprophan and Leucine, as well  as isoleucine and Valine, use the same transporter, LAT1, in order to cross the blood-brain barrier  ( BBB) and get into the brain.  If there is a surge of leucine in the blood, there will be less place left on the "ferry" for tryptophan (Trp) to make it into the brain.  But, in order to be transformed in serotonin, tryptophan must cross into the brain.  If Trp is prevented to make it into the brain, less serotonin is produced.  This can have an effect on mood and raise anxiety  ( for those who would like a more in-depth explanation, see http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1565.msg14730#msg14730 and http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1235.msg15588#msg15588 )

However, 12 mg of leucine does not sound like a high dose, as daily requirements are said to be around 34 mg per day for an adult ( https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-1005-branched-chain%20amino%20acids.aspx?activeingredientid=1005&activeingredientname=branched-chain%20amino%20acids ) .  To be sure that these side effects you have are linked to the leucine, you should try to find a Benfotiamine supplement that does not contain leucine, and see if it also cause this side effect for you.   For someone very vulnerable to this effect, a small does could be enough to cause problems.