Author Topic: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.  (Read 78567 times)

Deranged Nasat

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2012, 04:24:43 AM »
Hello, all. I thought I'd briefly try and explain my own case here. I'm 22 years old, and I've had the symptoms of what I'm now certain is POIS since my mid-teens. The effects come on immediately after ejaculation (if I manage not to carry all the way through to orgasm but still become aroused I experience reduced symptoms). I have both physical and mental ailments - the physical being a general sense of burning pain or tingling throbbing over much of my body, the feeling that I'm hot and buzzing with electricity, as if a warm fog has entered my body and is now under my skin. I have stabbing pains in my knees and back, really stiff muscles and a sore throat that makes it difficult to speak clearly. My eyes burn and I become really, heavily fatigued. Mentally, the fog leaves me totally unable to think with any degree of clarity, which is frightening to someone like myself. I'm a Cambridge graduate and my favoured activities always involved concentration, memory, intellect - all of which are disrupted when I experience this. I feel spaced out and unable to handle even simple tasks. I can't find the words to speak effectively and my short-term memory is useless. Either as a direct result or due to the stress of living with this disorder, I have severe depression and mood swings. I'm also almost always tired; I need to "sleep it off" after an incident but even when I'm reasonably recovered the fatigue doesn't go away.

No matter how many times I say "never again" after masturbating, I still end up doing it every other week or so, and the shame of it really gets to me. My entire life is just one long string of illness and recovery only to know I'll be ill again very soon. Even if I manage not to masturbate, I'll eventually ejaculate in my sleep; there's seemingly no escape. I've been suicidal and desperate not to ejaculate, but I can't get out of the pattern. I heard another sufferer compare it to drug addiction - you know what it's doing to you, but the urge is just so strong. And when I'm very anxious - free-floating anxiety being another symptom of my depression - I have the urge to masturbate more as a relief. It's a terrible circle.

Prancer

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2012, 12:29:36 PM »
No matter how many times I say "never again" after masturbating, I still end up doing it every other week or so, and the shame of it really gets to me. My entire life is just one long string of illness and recovery only to know I'll be ill again very soon. Even if I manage not to masturbate, I'll eventually ejaculate in my sleep; there's seemingly no escape. I've been suicidal and desperate not to ejaculate, but I can't get out of the pattern. I heard another sufferer compare it to drug addiction - you know what it's doing to you, but the urge is just so strong. And when I'm very anxious - free-floating anxiety being another symptom of my depression - I have the urge to masturbate more as a relief. It's a terrible circle.

I completely agree with this and with those symptoms you mentioned DN. Welcome!  :)

Brainfog

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2012, 12:29:20 AM »
I am a 52 year old male who has been plagued by post orgasm symptoms for most of the past 30-40 years. In recent years/months the symptoms have become simply unbearable.  Following orgasm I experience 7-10 days of lethargy, EXTREME hair-trigger temper and internal aggressive impulses. I snap at family members in very short order, my entire mood is dark and extremely agitated and angry. I can feel every nerve in my body in what can best be described a s a supercharged angst and unease.  I experience a kind of "brainfog" and my general cognitive ability is dramatically lessened.  It makes it REALLY hard to work and stay focussed.  Once I've had one orgasm, I am usually driven to have one or two more until I'm quite literally drained, at which point all of these severe symptoms kick in to high gear and hang around for 7-10 days before wearing off. I feel like a TOTALLY different person when this fog takes over with the intense anger, agitation and wound up feeling of every nerve in my body for days on end can be/IS just unbearable. I'm not at all suicidal, but these symptoms have become absolutely unbearable. I can't continue to go on in this way without some kind of solution. The symptoms seem to have been getting worse and worse over time to the point where I now pay dearly for every single orgasm. I usually can go a week or two or three or sometimes a month or more without any orgasm before my body, at some point, rebels and yearns for a sexual release, which is ALWAYS followed by this same awful cycle - for decades now!  Prometheus had it good! I can't overstate just how much this sucks - the life out of me.

rock27

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2012, 06:23:54 PM »
Brain Fog,
I recognize all your symtoms; the extremely dark mood, feeling angry and agitated, lack of focus, at unease, for no reason.
You are not alone, but it is a rare disease.

We are trying to get research done on this, it's the only way to get answers.
Amongst forum members we now have collected 24,735, we need about 9,000 more.
I have donated 1,000 dollars and preparing a new one before the end of this year.

The link is:
https://rarediseases.org/about/support/research-donations/fg_base_view_p3
In the spot for "Research Fund," hit "Please Select a Research Fund."  It's an alphabetical drop down -- go to P and find Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

Please donate and get this research started!!

demografx

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2012, 10:34:19 PM »
:) THANKS, ROCKY! :)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 12:44:53 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

poisioq

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2012, 07:58:18 AM »
I have an idea.
you have 1000 to donate.
You could put a condition: you donate 1000 only if the members of the forum make an effort to collect 500 by the end of this month (mainly from the new ones that have not yet contributed).
Maybe with small campaigns like this we can make it

demografx

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2012, 04:19:15 PM »
Excellent, boissioq!

Let's keep the ideas and ACTION coming!
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 09:16:22 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2012, 01:10:53 AM »
I strongly urge you to fire this doctor QUICKLY. And find an empathetic one. QUICKLY.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Vincent M

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2013, 07:23:27 AM »
New POIS member at nsf.

romies: "My typical symptoms:

onset: 1-2 hrs after orgasm, typically it takes 4-5 days to resolve. the first 2 days can be paralyzing

Very sleepy during the day, even with 10+ hrs of sleep (I normally sleep 8 hrs)
immediately tired after breakfast.

Cognitative:
very poor working memory

ADHD behavior,
Example:I cannot finish unloading a dish-washer under POIS without switching to something else in the middle of it.

Socially withdrawn
      
Emotional
Negative thoughts, low self-esteem, lots of self-criticism
Very Irritable

Low physical energy
max weight reduced by 40-50% in weight training
headache during physical exertion (e.g. running)

Blurred vision

Mild-Flu-like symptoms
     sore throat
     sneezing
     cough

My current daily supplement routine.
upon wake-up: Now-brand NADH 10mg (rocket fuel indeed). no eating for 25-30 mins.
after breakfast: Fish oil, Ginkgo 120mg, Vitamine D 2000IU, Methyl-Guardx1 capsule
            Wellbutrin 100mg SR (being taking this for a year before I discovered the POIS thread)
after lunch: Ginkgo 60mg, Vitamin C, Multi-vitamin
before sleep: Now-brand Arginine+Ornithine 500/250mg x 2 (to reduce ammonia)
                  Loratadine 10mg, ZMA(1 capsule only: 10mg zinc, 5mg Pryidoxine HCL, 150mg Mg), p5p 50mg.

additional Ginkgo, VC and 1 Methyl-Guard after orgasm

I would say this routine eliminated 90% of the cognitive symptoms."
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 09:25:14 AM by Vincent M »
Taking ginger tea, no wheat, fenugreek+green tea/garlic, saw palmetto, niacin, boswellia, huperzine, B complex and nutmeg. See my treatment summary post for more info: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=81.msg3513#msg3513

urano75

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2013, 01:35:43 PM »
Hi,
I'm new to this group and found it while googling around about problems I can't really find and answer and a solution to...

I'm a 38 years old guy from Italy, my name is Andrea.

The specific problem is that after an orgasm I have the following symptoms aggravated for 2-3 days, the day after being the worst: muscular/joints/tendons weakness and pains (flu-like), fatigue, light headed, lack of initiative, apathy, lethargy, sense of void in the lower abdomen, sore throat (increased probability to catch viral infections), hard getting out of bed the morning after and dragging myself the entire day, feeling cold.

I say "aggravated" because most of this symptoms are already present to a smaller degree independently from sexual activity, as I'm currently dealing with problems of adrenal fatigue and hormone thyroid resistance at tissues level (hypothiroidism).
Hypoadrenia/Hypothyoridism give me CFS/Fybromyalgia like symptoms. An orgasm just seems to make this much worse for at least a couple of days, the day after being the worst. Sex is definitively the most powerful trigger for these symptoms, but they can somewhat increase after overexercising, excessive sun exposure or sauna, lack of sleep.

I've probably always thought that it was "normal" to feel exhausted to some degree after an O, but as I've been solving issues lately and feeling better in many ways I've realized that this isn't normal at all. It's probably been like this since my puberty, just gradually got worse in a way that couldn't be perceived, but I've taken consciousness of the specific POIS problem only recently.

I also have a history of depression, and I responded decently to SSRI (fluoxetine) which I used for 11 years with few breaks and relapses, until I was able to get rid of it 2 years ago.

I suffer of allergies (pollens, dut mites, molds), and also food sensitiveness (gluten, casein - not celiac).
I am currently following a protocol with T3 thyroid hormone called CT3M (T3 cyrcadian method), plus adrenal support (pregnenolone, adaptogenic herbs) and lots of supplements (vitamins, minerals, aminoes...), see end of post.

My sex hormones are OK (total/free testosterone, SHGB, estradiol, progesterone).
My prolactin is in range last labs (<20)
Currently the main hormonal lab issue is low salivar DHEA, cortisol is almost normal but could ideally be a little higher.

I believe my symtpoms are somehow related to a dopamine depletion, but neither DLPA nor L-Tyrosine seem to make a big difference. I'm going to try Mucuna Pruriens (L-DOPA) to see if that helps.

In Chinese Traditional Medicine post-sex fatigue is related to kidney weakness, so again adrenals. I get some acupuncture sessions to work on kidneys points with no big results for this particular problem.

I try not to have sex more often than once a week and the symptoms occur nonetheless, clearly this is not normal for a 38 years old guy, and this has been happening for years now.
When I am low energy obviously sex drive is not on top of my thoughts. But as soon as I have some energy libido increases and creates a kind of tension that calls for being released. This currently might happen once a week, but it changes depending on the general condition. Unfortunately that also causes the side effects I described in the post and brins me again to ground zero for awhile.

I've also tried semen retention techniques but stopped them, both because they actually didn't help much (it seems that orgasm and not ejaculation aggravate symptoms), and because I felt they were a bit unnatural and possibly unhealthy.

I've been practicing tai chi chuan and various meditation techniques for years, this all helped coping better with the many challenges life offers (health and more).

I've come across here now searching for some fresh ideas besides the adrenal fatigue paradigm I've become familiar with.
Glad to find some friendly and helpful people on NSF, and eventually here.

This is my current protocol, but it continuously change based on my needs;

- Thyroid Hormones (T3):

35mcgT3@4AM+20mcgT3@11AM+20mcgT3@6PM (total 75mcg per day)

- Adrenal support:

Pregnenolone 50mg
Ashwagandha/Phytisone complex (adaptogenics herbs) complex 3*2cps
Adrenergize (adrenal cortex extract) 2cps

- Aminos:

L-Tyrosine 2*3g (AM, noon)
5-HTP 100mg
MSM 3*3000mg
N-Acetyl-Cysteine 1000mg
L-Lysine   2*1g
L-Methionine 500mg

- Minerals:

Magnesium (citrate) 1000mg
Zinc (gluconate) 2*50mg
Copper (gluconate) 4mg
Chromium (picolinate) 500mcg
Selenium 200mcg
Humic & Fulvic Acids (liquid organic minerals)

- Vitamins:

B Complex - 2 cps, each one containing:

   Thiamin (as Thiamin HCl) 110 mg.
   Riboflavin (as Riboflavin 5'-Phosphate Sodium) 10 mg.
   Niacin (130 mg as Niacinamide and 10 mg as Niacin) 140 mg.
   Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxal 5'-Phosphate) 10 mg.
   Folate (as L-5-Methyltetrahydrofolate from L-5-Methyltetrahydrofolic Acid, Glucosamine Salt) 400 mcg.
   Vitamin B12 (as Methylcobalamin) 400 mcg.
   Biotin 400 mcg.
   Pantothenic Acid (as Calcium Pantothenate) 110 mg.
   Choline Citrate 80 mg.


Vit. B5 3*3000mg
P-5-P 3*50mg

Vit. A 10000UI
Vit. C 3*1000mg + Citrus bioflavonoids
Vit. D3 5000UI
Vit. E (mixed tocopherols) 400mg
Vit. K2 (MK-7) 2*100mcg

- Others:

Ubiquinol 2*50mg
Lipoic Acid 2*300mg
Fish Oil 2*1000mg
Krill Oil 2*1000mg
Curcumin+Bioperine 3*1000mg
Stinging Nettles root extract 2*500mg
Quercetine 2*1g

Probiotics (as needed)
Digestive enzymes (every meal)

Zeolite (for chelating heavy metals)

- Things I'm going to add soon:

Niacin (when needed)
TMG
Mucuna Pruriens
Fenugreek+Garlic?

- Things I used to take in the last couple of years and not using now or dropped for several different reasons:

DLPA (DL-Phenylalanine)
Isocort
7-Keto-DHEA
Seriphos (Phosphatidylserine)
Deer Antler Velvet
Melatonin
AKG-Arginine
Iodine (liquid)
Coral Calcium
Megafood Bloobuilder (iron+C+B12+folate+beetroot)
Kelp tablets
Cat's claw
Berberine
Bentonite clay
...

- Meds used when necessary:
fexofenadine (the least effective dose for calming seasonal allergy)

- Meds I used in the past (and hopefully won't need anymore):
fluoxetine (for 11 years with few breaks, up to a couple of years ago)

I hope we can exchange valuable information and help making our lives better.

Thank you!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 08:59:37 AM by urano75 »

Chris

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2013, 08:31:20 AM »
Urano75: How do you take all these supplements..I mean dont you eat normal food ? Dont you think you are taking too much and that they may harm you ? I read all these things that you take and i 'm wondering myself what the heck should i start taking too ? I mean is it normal too take so much ? For me even taking one supplement is strange and i have qualms ..I 've also read from many other users the huge amount of supplements they are taking..I mean is this normal ? For me its like doping yourself..I cant understand this technique..

urano75

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2013, 08:48:41 AM »
Urano75: How do you take all these supplements..I mean dont you eat normal food ? Dont you think you are taking too much and that they may harm you ? I read all these things that you take and i 'm wondering myself what the heck should i start taking too ? I mean is it normal too take so much ? For me even taking one supplement is strange and i have qualms ..I 've also read from many other users the huge amount of supplements they are taking..I mean is this normal ? For me its like doping yourself..I cant understand this technique..

Chris, I can understand your perplexity. If you don't feel comfortable with supplements, don't take them.
If I could solve my health problems just eating "normal food" I wouldn't spend my time and money in supplements and doctors, or looking for solutions around...
I don't know if it's "normal", it's just one of the ways I'm trying. It sounded strange to me as well in the beginning. I got used to it.
What is your approach to solve POIS and other health issues instead?

poisioq

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2013, 09:17:18 AM »
it also looks to me too much.
nothing against taking supplements, but i 'd try to find out which are the 3-4 ones that make the diference

Bulbo

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2013, 07:10:29 AM »
hello everyone I am bulbo
I was bright and very active when i was a child. As i grew up whenever i thought about girls i lose the ability to think clearly.So i started to mug up concepts instead of understanding them. At that age i thought i was studying in a proper way. As i grew up i found out that i can understand concepts but cannot retain them in my mind and also i am slow at understanding.But i dont have adhd. Then i searched in google and found that i had pois.
              The day following nocturnal emission will be very hard.there will be occassional sneezing and nasal discharge. My muscles all over the body are weak.I have reduced appetite.  I dont have muscle pain. I have reduced taste perception. I have cognitive impairment (cannot understand what i hear, cannot comprehend things from a textbook, cannot store new facts and i forget what i have learned earlier), my eyeballs protrude out. But on that day if i sleep for half an hour in the afternoon, then my pois goes away. Then i am able to study very well, muscles are strong, no protrusion of eye ball.
              On a day without pois, if i think that a girl likes me, then pois sets in even before pre ejaculate is released or erection occurs. Cognition is impaired, eyes protrude out, muscles are weak. I am very lean. But if i sleep for some time pois goes away.
              At 19 yrs of age i had post void dribbling. Urine gets collected somewhere between bladder and penis. If i press below the base of penis, the collected urine is forced out. I think i have cowper's syringocoele. I have pois after every urination.
               If i masturbate, I have very severe pois. This pois dont go away even if i sleep for half an hour in the afternoon. It last for one day. i feel fresh on the next day.
            
       Niacin works for me.I think it is due to its anti inflammatory action.
       Etoricoxib also works for me. (etoricoxib can cause gastric ulcer, altered taste sensation, congestive heart failure). I tried it only once . I will never eat etoricoxib again in my life, never.
      
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 09:46:09 AM by Bulbo »

Balourd

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2013, 06:30:57 PM »
hello everyone I am bulbo
I was bright and very active when i was a child. As i grew up whenever i thought about girls i lose the ability to think clearly.So i started to mug up concepts instead of understanding them. At that age i thought i was studying in a proper way. As i grew up i found out that i can understand concepts but cannot retain them in my mind and also i am slow at understanding.But i dont have adhd. Then i searched in google and found that i had pois.
              The day following nocturnal emission will be very hard.there will be occassional sneezing and nasal discharge. My muscles all over the body are weak.I have reduced appetite.  I dont have muscle pain. I have reduced taste perception. I have cognitive impairment (cannot understand what i hear, cannot comprehend things from a textbook, cannot store new facts and i forget what i have learned earlier), my eyeballs protrude out. But on that day if i sleep for half an hour in the afternoon, then my pois goes away. Then i am able to study very well, muscles are strong, no protrusion of eye ball.
              On a day without pois, if i think that a girl likes me, then pois sets in even before pre ejaculate is released or erection occurs. Cognition is impaired, eyes protrude out, muscles are weak. I am very lean. But if i sleep for some time pois goes away.
              At 19 yrs of age i had post void dribbling. Urine gets collected somewhere between bladder and penis. If i press below the base of penis, the collected urine is forced out. I think i have cowper's syringocoele. I have pois after every urination.
               If i masturbate, I have very severe pois. This pois dont go away even if i sleep for half an hour in the afternoon. It last for one day. i feel fresh on the next day.
            
       Niacin works for me.I think it is due to its anti inflammatory action.
       Etoricoxib also works for me. (etoricoxib can cause gastric ulcer, altered taste sensation, congestive heart failure). I tried it only once . I will never eat etoricoxib again in my life, never.
     I am a MBBS student. Because of pois , i think i wont complete the course

I beleive you should stick with niacin and reduce orgasms.I had quit masturbation for 90+ days as a test and i was somewhat better but got  hudge depression etc because i had less fog and realized how behind i was in my life. (most of my friends have completed their studies but i couldnt because of POIS).
Then since last week i started masturbation and generally i felt WORSE.

What people say here match my problems.Especially this concentration problem ,slow thinking and like some dude said he felt that he is going to be homeless if left alone with no family support.
I have all these cognitive symptoms! But i am afraid if this is normal am i just dont try hard or correctly..
I am going to quit again masturbation (wasnt  difficult) and take niacin before sex..
I hope some day to find a cure.

Bulbo

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2013, 12:12:33 PM »
Thanks for replying.
Though POIS makes my studies difficult, I am not going to give up. If I give up, then my life will become miserable.
If POIS is a medical condition that cannot be treated, then we will have to accept that everyone cannot be winners. What if the world contained only doctors, scientists, engineers, and no people who produce the basic needs of a human. So we should become those people who produce the basic needs of a human. We should accept that as a privilege.

Balourd

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2013, 01:01:18 PM »
i believe that masturbation isnt healthy when done excessivly. See reddit.com/r/nofap people there report similar symptoms .Dont give up studies etc but you should try be as much healthy as possible

sameer7777

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2013, 04:28:28 AM »
Contact me on email

Take vitamin b injections
U will get the diff !!!
pls don't expose me.
AFTER SEX/MASTERBATION (FLU LIKE SYMPTOMS)
1)BACK NECK PAIN GOES TO DOWN SPINE
2)NERVES LIKE SQUEEZED OUT
3)MORNING FEET NERVES PAIN
4)NASAL INFLAMMATION
5)BRAIN FOG
6)DEPRESSION
7)HIGH SUGAR LEVELS (TRIED INSULIN FOR 1 YEAR MAKE ME MORE SICK

demografx

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2013, 05:02:38 PM »
Please don't blindly promote _any_ injectables!

Thank you.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Poisitive

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Re: Personal POIS Summaries and Histories.
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2013, 10:07:34 AM »
Hi everyone.

I'm poisitive (positive to POIS but with a positive attitude to fight it) and I'm new to this forum. I thought it was the best place to introduce myself. Might take a few updates to complete it

I'm a 37 year old french man and have been suffering of POIS since puberty I believe

I found out about POIS a 3 weeks ago and it's been a REAL REVELATION for me : after all these years of mental solitude, I've found people who live what I live, have the same questionings, express sufferings that I can so well understand, people I can relate to !

I live it like a rebirth, having again faith in possible improvements in my social life.

My POIS symptoms are :

- important tiredness
- important body temperature variations : most of the time, my body is hot (lot of sweating if asleep after) but sometimes it can be followed but high coldness of extremities that is very long to recover from. And when cold stops, it's to get back to hot (instead of normal)
- consecutively I assume, dryness  of my skin (wrinkled on wakeup), itchy-eyes. I wear contact lenses and I believe that the bad oxygenation of the eyes due to dry lenses is what causes my headaches
- impact on the digestion speed : either acceleration causing urge and diarrhea or lock and constipation
- and of course foggy mind, difficulty to find my words, short-memory pbs

But the symptom that makes me suffer the most is that when I'm on POIS, I'm socially rejected. I still can't identify exactly what causes this rejection but this is how I gradually understood that something was going wrong with me. Because, at first, I was aware of nothing and always caught by surprise by this rejection.
So I have two me: the cool one out of POIS and the POIS.

I still find it difficult to identify what people see different in my behavior between the cool me and the POIS me. Because all I see is the rejection.
With time and mostly recently, I've been able to understand that I paid less attention, was more impatient in conversations, cutting other's turn, let's say more selfish.

To be able to cope with the POIS me, I had to adopt the avoidance strategy that you all know: planning ejaculation when the followings days (2-3 for me) are with as little stakes as possible.

Have to go, will update later