Choline supplementation seems promising

[JayDeeSee]

I've been taking between 1000-1200 mg daily of mostly alpha gpc, but also experimenting with throwing in some cdp choline as well, for the past 2-3 weeks. Also eating 2 eggs on most of those day. I will probably also continue to add more supplemental choline. I gotta say, the initial results are promising.

Others have already pointed out that symptoms of choline deficiency and acetylcholine issues seem to perfectly match our symptoms. I seem to have problems during POIS with everything the vagus nerve is connected to: eyes, voice, lungs, digestion, muscle tightness, short term memory and recalling words. Even chronic recurring constipation and very high eye sensitivity to light outside of POIS.... Both things that are controlled by the vagus nerve. I even posted a while ago that a sleep tracking app showed I was completely skipping over REM sleep while in POIS, and acetylcholine is needed for REM sleep.
The biggest issue for me was complete lack of control over anxious feelings while in POIS, and these anxious feelings would often spin out of control to near panic, accompanied by a constant elevated heartbeat and inability to focus on anything. I'm no medical expert but that sure seems like a parasympathetic nervous system that is not able to function properly. And what does your parasympathetic nervous system need to function properly? Choline.

The fact that I can take such high daily doses of choline supplements while a lot of people say that even small doses of choline supplements sends them into deep negative side effects says to me that maybe my body is starved of choline.

I sure hope works because I'm at the end of my rope here...

[Warrior]

If you haven't seen this already, some guy at the POIS reddit had great success with NAC + Choline: https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/zfxkdl/pois_cured_and_heres_how_i_did_it/

[JayDeeSee]

If you haven't seen this already, some guy at the POIS reddit had great success with NAC + Choline: https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/zfxkdl/pois_cured_and_heres_how_i_did_it/

This is the first I'm seeing this. Looks like I'll be introducing NAC back into my regimen. Thanks for sharing

[Mr Raba]

Perhaps it is related to low acetylcholine. Note how the symptoms match POIS.

“Symptoms of Acetylcholine Deficiency
Constipation/gastroparesis
Memory problems
Difficulty with word recall when speaking
Learning difficulties
Dry mouth
Dry eyes
Orthostatic hypotension
Low muscle tone
Depressed mood
Fast heart rate
Chronic inflammation
Emotional instability”

Good info on acetylcholine here.

https://www.peirsoncenter.com/articles/acetylcholine-how-and-why-to-optimize-the-synthesis-of-this-vital-neurotransmitter

It could be a vicious circle. Citric acid cycle produces less pyruvate which in turn produces less acetylcholine.

[demografx]

Perhaps it is related to low acetylcholine. Note how the symptoms match POIS.

“Symptoms of Acetylcholine Deficiency
Constipation/gastroparesis
Memory problems
Difficulty with word recall when speaking
Learning difficulties
Dry mouth
Dry eyes
Orthostatic hypotension
Low muscle tone
Depressed mood
Fast heart rate
Chronic inflammation
Emotional instability”

Good info on acetylcholine here.

https://www.peirsoncenter.com/articles/acetylcholine-how-and-why-to-optimize-the-synthesis-of-this-vital-neurotransmitter

It could be a vicious circle. Citric acid cycle produces less pyruvate which in turn produces less acetylcholine.

Thanks, Mr Raba!

[Muon]

It could be a vicious circle. Citric acid cycle produces less pyruvate which in turn produces less acetylcholine.

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3765.msg40371#msg40371
Excess acetone in urine may reflect shift in citric acid cycle towards ketones production according to chatGPT.

[mike_sweden]

Perhaps it is related to low acetylcholine. Note how the symptoms match POIS.

“Symptoms of Acetylcholine Deficiency
Constipation/gastroparesis
Memory problems
Difficulty with word recall when speaking
Learning difficulties
Dry mouth
Dry eyes
Orthostatic hypotension
Low muscle tone
Depressed mood
Fast heart rate
Chronic inflammation
Emotional instability”

Good info on acetylcholine here.

https://www.peirsoncenter.com/articles/acetylcholine-how-and-why-to-optimize-the-synthesis-of-this-vital-neurotransmitter

It could be a vicious circle. Citric acid cycle produces less pyruvate which in turn produces less acetylcholine.

what would be a solution to this?

[Mr Raba]

To the question of what can be done. Has anyone tried phosphatidylcholine?

[berlin1984]

Perhaps it is related to low acetylcholine.

FYI moved your posts here, I think Muon wanted the "Master theory list" post without discussing individual ones. 
Muon, your list post could include (acetyl)choline as a separate entry or so?

To the question of what can be done. Has anyone tried phosphatidylcholine?

I recently bought Lecithin.
Quoting wikipedia:
"The main phospholipids in lecithin from soy and sunflower are phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylinositol, phosphatidylethanolamine, phosphatidylserine, and phosphatidic acid."
Note that lecithin is also included in egg yolks.

The reason for my buying this was:
1) I have a PEMT mutation. Taking choline would be good.
2) Anecdotal internet comments about increasing semen volume and improving sperm. One of my POIS ways of thinking is: If it improves fertility or libido or testosterone it might help with POIS.

So far no conclusions, but I feel it's beneficial for my brain.

NOTE: Would be nice if we'd see somewhere if/how phosphatidylcholine and other forms can be converted by the body to see if they're equivalent to take?

[Muon]

It's at the bottom of the list under vagus nerve problems. Not sure yet to make it a separate entry. I could place it under neurotransmitters as well.

[Mr Raba]

Asking again dear fellow POISERs:

Has anyone tried phophatilcholine?

[Quantum]

Asking again dear fellow POISERs:

Has anyone tried phophatilcholine?

Yes, I take lecithin daily for years, which is an excellent source of phosphatidylcholine.  It is good for me,  It is not part of my pre-pack, but rather in my daily supplements.
Many POISers have shared successful control of their POIS symptoms using different cholinergic supplements or drugs.  See category #4 in my POIS types chart, at https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2338.msg19448#msg19448 .  Eggs being a good source of lecithin, we may include success with eggs, like in the case of Bulbo, in this POIS Type.

You should also be aware that fenugreek is a good source of choline, and many members have success using it against POIS attacks.  There is also an entry in my POIS Types Chart about fenugreek.

[demografx]

Asking again dear fellow POISERs:

Has anyone tried phophatilcholine?

Yes, I take lecithin daily for years, which is an excellent source of phosphatidylcholine.  It is good for me,  It is not part of my pre-pack, but rather in my daily supplements.
Many POISers have shared successful control of their POIS symptoms using different cholinergic supplements or drugs.  See category #4 in my POIS types chart, at https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2338.msg19448#msg19448 .  Eggs being a good source of lecithin, we may include success with eggs, like in the case of Bulbo, in this POIS Type.

You should also be aware that fenugreek is a good source of choline, and many members have success using it against POIS attacks.  There is also an entry in my POIS Types Chart about fenugreek.

Even in the predecessor years of POISCenter (Naked Science Forum/POIS), fenugreek was positively discussed as far back as 2007.

[Warrior]

Choline is a methyl donor. POIS depletes neurotransmitters. If you benefit from choline, I would also suggest SAM-e, vitamin B12, folate, and B6.

[Warrior]

Asking again dear fellow POISERs:

Has anyone tried phophatilcholine?

Yes, I take lecithin daily for years, which is an excellent source of phosphatidylcholine.  It is good for me,  It is not part of my pre-pack, but rather in my daily supplements.
Many POISers have shared successful control of their POIS symptoms using different cholinergic supplements or drugs.  See category #4 in my POIS types chart, at https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2338.msg19448#msg19448 .  Eggs being a good source of lecithin, we may include success with eggs, like in the case of Bulbo, in this POIS Type.

You should also be aware that fenugreek is a good source of choline, and many members have success using it against POIS attacks.  There is also an entry in my POIS Types Chart about fenugreek.

I have found fenugreek to behave very similarlly to methyl donors in my experience. I no longer take it as it appears to give me side-effects very similar to excess methyl donors. It's medicinal benefits for POIS have always been cognitive/mood-altering in nature, initially improving socialisation and mood disturbances. Just an anecdote to affirm the possibility of this theory.

I think once methyl donors have been adequately replenished, side-effects are more likely from supplementation (because the body no longer needs them as much). So it would make sense the same would apply to fenugreek (if methyl donors were indeed behind why fenugreek works).