Pepto Bismol removed symptoms completely

[CharlesB]

Hi all,

I am a long time lurker and just joined the forum.  I was recently diagnosed with H Pylori after a functional medicine work up to see if we could figure out the cause of my POIS symptoms.

I decided to try a supplemental approach to treat the h pylori instead of antibiotics (oregano oil, mastic gum, probiotics, pepto bismol).  During the second week of this treatment, my pois went away completely (was able to O every day 100% relief of all symptoms).  As soon as I stopped taking the pepto bismol, everything came roaring back.  Note: H Pylori antigen rest came back negative after treatment.

I have recreated the two week regimen without the pepto, and had no relief.

My thought is that, at least for me, my POIS is caused by some massive gut dysbiosis, and that the pepto coating my stomach stopped a cytokine response to whatever is going on.

Obviously it is not a good idea for me to continue to take Pepto Bismol for any extended period, so for now I am trying a biofilm busting protocol (NAC for a week, and then some botanicals antibiotic type stuff.

I figured I?d at least share, as the pepto bismol completely removing symptoms (after a week of taking 3x daily) is a clue to something, I just don?t know what.


Background:  POIS for 2 years, symptoms are extreme neck tension, severe irritability, sleep disturbances/waking up gasping for air, swollen glands under both ears, and brain fog

[demografx]

CharlesB, welcome to the forum!

[Journey]

Good to hear it works.

When you took it were you in POIS state?

How old are you? When you noticed symptoms? When you realized O gives it? When you got POIS was anything different in life, stress, injury, pro/antibiotics etc.?

[CharlesB]

CharlesB, welcome to the forum!

Thanks!

[CharlesB]

Good to hear it works.

When you took it were you in POIS state?

How old are you? When you noticed symptoms? When you realized O gives it? When you got POIS was anything different in life, stress, injury, pro/antibiotics etc.?

I took it when not in POIS state (I have to stay abstinent to stay out of POIS - even moderate arousal will set it off).  When I had O the second week, which would normally ruin my life for the next 4 days, nothing happened.

I am early 30s, I first noticed symptoms 2 years ago, and noticed about 30 minutes after O I had trouble concentrating and was very irritable/angry, and got more tense and brain fog throughout the day (and that night had horrible sleep and lucid nightmares/gasping for breath).  Night is usually the worst for me.

My theory is that about 4 months before this night I had an emergency surgery followed by two types of antibiotics (one gave me bad symptoms after three days, and then they switched me to another one for two weeks).  I think that threw my gut out of whack, and I remember having the severe irritability after O getting progressively worse up until that first really bad day, but I didn?t put 2 and 2 together.

Other weird things: Vitamin D blood level is deficient, but  when I have even 1000 I/U of D supplement, I get full POIS symptoms.  No idea why.  Sunlight exposure does not have the same effect.

[CharlesB]

I should mention what I?ve tried unsuccessfully:

Benadryl
Vitamin B Supplements
Paleo diet (tried for over a month with no relief)
Neurofeedback (no effect)
CBD oil - helps a little, but occasionally makes night symptoms paradoxically worse
Abstinence - works great until I get aroused, which is more difficult not to do the longer I am abstinent

[hapl]

Interesting. Which Pepto are you taking - tablets or liquid or ? And are you now only taking the Pepto, or also some of the other supplements. Also have you tried taking the Pepto only before O as opposed to daily?

[CharlesB]

Interesting. Which Pepto are you taking - tablets or liquid or ? And are you now only taking the Pepto, or also some of the other supplements. Also have you tried taking the Pepto only before O as opposed to daily?

I was taking 2 chewable tablets, 3x daily during the H Pylori protocol (2 weeks total).  From what I?ve read, long term usage is not advised without talking to your doctor as the bismuth can build up and cause neurotoxicity, so continuous usage is not an option for me.  During that two weeks I had no POIS symptoms though.

This is literally the only substance/supplement that has made a dent in my POIS over many failed experiments, so I look at it as a valuable clue.

I recently tried some after O, and it mitigated the symptoms a bit but not much, which leads me to believe that it needs to be coating my stomach prior to O in order to ameliorate a systemic bodily reaction to something imbalanced in my gut (that?s my theory anyway)

  Currently I?m not so much thinking of this as a long term solution, and I don?t want to take it every time.  It seems to me that it is a clue of what is causing my POIS, and I?m hoping that some re-balancing of my gut with biofilm disruptors and antimicrobials + probiotics will have lasting effects.

[demografx]

Can it work?

[drop247]

Just to be clear, did you ever have a successful use of Pepto alone to eliminate your POIS or are you just assuming it was the Pepto that works because the stack without Pepto didn't?

Did you try taking it just one time before orgasm? Or do you have to take it for 2 weeks or 1 week (sorry your post says both) for it to be effective?

[CharlesB]

Just to be clear, did you ever have a successful use of Pepto alone to eliminate your POIS or are you just assuming it was the Pepto that works because the stack without Pepto didn't?

Did you try taking it just one time before orgasm? Or do you have to take it for 2 weeks or 1 week (sorry your post says both) for it to be effective?

I took the pepto for two full weeks, and the first time I tried to O was at the beginning of the second week.  Hence, two weeks of pepto, one week of no POIS symptoms.

It is a fair point though that you make; to truly do my due diligence and definitively say it was the pepto bismol, I would have to undergo that experiment again separately (ie one week of pepto alone and then try O on the second week while continuing to take it 3x daily).  Granted if it was an unexpected synergistic effect from the pepto bismol, mastic, oregano oil, and probiotics that caused the relief, it would still lead me to the same conclusion - try to fix my gut.

That being said, I am comfortable in sharing an educated guess that I believe the relief to be from the pepto bismol, given that I had a control for my experiment, the other ingredients in concert had literally no effect on my POIS, and that I felt overall better than I have in along time each time I would take the pepto bismol (like a weird body calmness that I am not accustomed to).
Long story short, I just wanted to share what I believe lead to the only symptom relief I?ve had for two years, some context surrounding that, and the reason for my hypothesis, in hopes that this information might be helpful to someone on this forum - take from it what you will 

[CharlesB]

Yep, that is exactly what I took.

[demografx]

Thanks, CharlesB...the question mark...

...is what I placed after the PB graphic to see if PB is really a good POIS treatment. I think that you already indicated that it’s not a good idea to take it for more than 2 weeks. And we do not know which of Quantum’s POIS sub-types Pepto Bismol would best fit.

[drop247]

Granted if it was an unexpected synergistic effect from the pepto bismol, mastic, oregano oil, and probiotics that caused the relief, it would still lead me to the same conclusion - try to fix my gut.

The reason your health care professional had you take Pepto bismal with thst H Pylori stack is because of it's synergistic effect. So I do think it's possible that Pepto bismal alone wouldn't stop your POIS in the same manner as it did in the stack. It would be an interesting experiment.

[Muon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bismuth_subsalicylate#Mechanism_of_action

[CharlesB]

Granted if it was an unexpected synergistic effect from the pepto bismol, mastic, oregano oil, and probiotics that caused the relief, it would still lead me to the same conclusion - try to fix my gut.

The reason your health care professional had you take Pepto bismal with thst H Pylori stack is because of it's synergistic effect. So I do think it's possible that Pepto bismal alone wouldn't stop your POIS in the same manner as it did in the stack. It would be an interesting experiment.

I?m going to be a pain and both agree and disagree  - a synergistic effect against h pylori does not necessarily correlate to a synergistic against POIS (and it eliminated my H Pylori for good, but the POIS remains). To your point though, my control did not completely rule that out.  I could maybe try a smaller period (is three days with pepto and then O on day 4 while still taking it), as I really don?t want to take it for two full weeks this close to already taking substantial quantities of it.

Per Muon?s link on the mechanism of action, apparently by itself pepto bismol has anti-inflammatory properties in the gut, and I,ve read elsewhere that it costs the stomach.  Part of my thought is that by calming the stomach, it either a.) has  a beneficial affect on the vagus nerve (which may also explain how calm I felt each time I took it), or b.) is stopping a cytokine response based on gut dysbiosis.
Either way, I will report back after trying the next step in my gut protocol, which frankly would be my next step regardless of the null or alternative hypothesis regarding the pepto bismol  (NAC 2x daily for biofilm for one week, followed by supplements to kill bacteria).

[drop247]

Anti-inflammatory effect AND anti-microbial. That could be an important part of your success.

Pitz AM, Park GW, Lee D, et. al. Antimicrobial Activity of Bismuth Subsalicylate on Clostridium difficile, Escherichia coli O157:H7, Norovirus, and Other Common Enteric Pathogens. Gut Microbes. 2015;6(2):93-100.

[Muon]

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2301.msg34654#msg34654

[CharlesB]

Anti-inflammatory effect AND anti-microbial. That could be an important part of your success.

Pitz AM, Park GW, Lee D, et. al. Antimicrobial Activity of Bismuth Subsalicylate on Clostridium difficile, Escherichia coli O157:H7, Norovirus, and Other Common Enteric Pathogens. Gut Microbes. 2015;6(2):93-100.

Definitely agree that is a possibility.  My argument is that the speed with which the symptoms returned upon ceasing the pepto bismol (immediately), makes me lean towards a protective effect.  Could be wrong though, and incidentally, pepto bismol has antimicrobial properties itself.

For the record, the next thing my doc wants me to try after the week of NAC biofilm disruption is two-plus weeks of Biocidin (not plugging it - no idea if it works), and I?m vacillating between that and black seed oil, as the latter has antimicrobial, anti-biofilm (at least in vitro - link below), and anti-inflammatory properties - so to your point, if that combination is the key, it might be more effective, especially after initial biofilm disruption.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3095572/

If the Biocidin doesn?t work, then my plan is to recreate the entire experiment again with a week of NAC + two weeks black seed oil (trying to be as regimented as possible).

[CharlesB]

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2301.msg34654#msg34654

Very interesting Muon - good find.  My functional doc thinks it is a Mast Cell related, but thinks that gut dysbiosis is causing the mast cell response.  I?m really hoping they are right.