Author Topic: What could explain the delayed onset of symptoms that some people have?  (Read 1872 times)

berlin1984

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A lot of people in the forum have delayed onset of (different) symptoms. What are your theories?

If it's all about the orgasm, then why are some symptoms only coming in the evening on the next day, for example?

For CFS, there is Post-exterional malaise.



POIS1982

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Re: What could explain the delayed onset of symptoms that some people have?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2021, 11:57:35 PM »
It could be something to do with the brain waves, takes a couple of days for your brain to come down from the dopamine its releases, but everyone's physiology is different.

drop247

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Re: What could explain the delayed onset of symptoms that some people have?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2021, 12:13:56 AM »
In MCAS sufferers there are those who react immediately after exposure to a trigger are called ?shockers,? and those that react later are called ?leakers.? We could be experiencing something similar.

Journey

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Re: What could explain the delayed onset of symptoms that some people have?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2021, 08:28:06 AM »
I already have fatigue and brain fog within minutes but after waking up from the first sleep during a POIS episode is when the brain fog is at it's peak and then it stays that way and at like day 3-4 starts to decrease.

Muon

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Re: What could explain the delayed onset of symptoms that some people have?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2021, 11:02:19 AM »
Mast Cell Function: A New Vision of an Old Cell

"In addition to the immediate acute phase, there is also a late phase. In the later phases, proinflammatory cytokines released by mast cells are responsible for the recruitment of inflammatory cells such as eosinophils, basophils, and T cells to the site of inflammation and also contribute to the development of the chronic phase (Bradding 1999; Hofmann and Abraham 2009). The late phase is characterized by leukocyte infiltration at the site of inflammation and the initiation of an acquired immune response. This is followed by a chronic phase associated with persistent inflammation, tissue remodeling and fibrosis. These phases are observed in several allergic disorders including asthma, allergic rhinitis and atopic dermatitis, among others"

Yes and what happens when the infiltration takes place inside the gut? The late phase can be an upstep to the chronic phase.

In MCAS sufferers there are those who react immediately after exposure to a trigger are called ?shockers,? and those that react later are called ?leakers.? We could be experiencing something similar.

This behaviour can be explained by the methods of which MCs release their mediators.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 11:26:43 AM by Muon »

berlin1984

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I never notice any symptoms until the next day, or maybe even the day after that.  Anyone else like this?  It seems most of you seem to notice symptoms rather quickly

Different symptoms at different stages..
Also depends highly on when the orgasm is and when the sleep is. In general, going to sleep after orgasm is helpful.

Somewhere in the forum it was also reported that it depends on what the person ate in the 24h before the orgasm (low carb was better, if i remember correctly. Would match the theory about bacteria growth getting triggered on orgasm)

BoneBroth

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I think many of the symptoms has to do with temporarily reduced liver function worsened by leaking gut. Either the leaky gut has compromised the liver or the other way around, or both happening at the same time in a vicious circle. We have to break that circle by improving the intestins and the liver. When they have normal function I think we would not have much POIS symptoms at all and the hormonal balances will be restored.

Signs of non-alcoholic liver disease:
  • Headache due to "thick blood" (Low bilirubin levels is a sign that old blood cells are not broken down and re-circulates in the blood stream too long)
  • Yelloish poop = low bilirubin levels
  • Nightmares
  • Mental confusion, such as a hard time focusing or remembering.
  • Blood pools, reddish skin, Red palms. varicose veins
  • Acne outbreak - typhically liver issue
  • Weight loss, you cant metabolize proteins
  • B-vitamin deficiency symptoms
  • Nausea
  • Alcohol sensivity
  • Weakness and fatigue.
  • Swelling or bloating in your abdomen, due to fluids collecting.

The gut and the liver fortunately responds very well to healing technics, diets and nutrition and can be restored to almost normal function. Even if there is only a little piece of the liver left it is said that it can grow back to normal size, and the cells in the intestines (Intestinal villus) regenurates in only a day. Se my info for links to this.

Quantum

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I think many of the symptoms has to do with temporarily reduced liver function worsened by leaking gut. Either the leaky gut has compromised the liver or the other way around, or both happening at the same time in a vicious circle. We have to break that circle by improving the intestins and the liver. When they have normal function I think we would not have much POIS symptoms at all and the hormonal balances will be restored.

Signs of non-alcoholic liver disease:
  • Headache due to "thick blood" (Low bilirubin levels is a sign that old blood cells are not broken down and re-circulates in the blood stream too long)
  • Yelloish poop = low bilirubin levels
  • Nightmares
  • Mental confusion, such as a hard time focusing or remembering.
  • Blood pools, reddish skin, Red palms. varicose veins
  • Acne outbreak - typhically liver issue
  • Weight loss, you cant metabolize proteins
  • B-vitamin deficiency symptoms
  • Nausea
  • Alcohol sensivity
  • Weakness and fatigue.
  • Swelling or bloating in your abdomen, due to fluids collecting.
The gut and the liver fortunately responds very well to healing technics, diets and nutrition and can be restored to almost normal function. Even if there is only a little piece of the liver left it is said that it can grow back to normal size, and the cells in the intestines (Intestinal villus) regenurates in only a day. Se my info for links to this.

Hi BoneBroth,

I totally agree about the importance of the liver.  In my case, I figured out a while ago that my liver is rather sluggish ( I will receive my genome mapping in a month or two, and my detox SNPs will confirm this, I am quite sure).   Unfortunately, for me, it is not temporary, my liver is struggling on a constant basis.  So I have adapted my lifestyle accordingly.
I still live by the guidelines I have written in my "Liver Detox" threads, a few years ago  ( see http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2431.msg20521#msg20521 - the first post is about the science behind liver detox, the third post is the TLDR version of what I do to help my liver stay fit.  I have added slightly updated this 3rd post by adding a note on vitamin C, which I use whenever I get high histamine symptoms )

When I take good care of my liver, my energy level is much better.  I have also less POIS symptoms too.
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

BoneBroth

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Hi Quantum!

Do you think POIS is the cause of your sluggish liver? When did the symptoms appear for the first time and what symptoms do you have on POIS and on not on POIS (any on the list above?). Do you have any results from a liver test (bilirubin, GGTP, LD-isoenzymes, ASAT, ALAT, albumin, ALP etc)? How is your resistance for O/NE nowdays?

"The liver takes long time to rejuvenate. It can take up to three years to rejuvenate" says dr Eric Berg here.

Are you also working on your gut health/SIBO? There is a strong link found between celiac disease and cirrhosis of the liver and leaky gut can make fatty liver worse.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 04:24:52 PM by BoneBroth »

Quantum

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Hi BoneBroth,
My hepatic insufficiency was there since birth, it was not caused by POIS.  It is probably the other way around - my sluggish liver was contributing to the severity of my POIS.
As I said, I will receive in about a month or two, my genome results.  That will help determine to what extent my detox enzymes are affected by unfavourable genetics  ( most detox enzymes are found in the liver ).  I never had extensive blood work for liver status, just usual liver enzymes, and they were normal - having a slow liver is not the same as an acute episode of intoxication, it does not show in high AST or ALT.  Maybe my bilirubin could have, at the time, been a little higher than normal, and more extensive tests could have clearly shown that my liver was below average for efficiency. But I did not have an acute liver failure, nether a liver disease, just a slow, ineffective, liver.  I may have been told to avoid alcohol, avoid acetaminophen ( which is extensively metabolized by the liver), drink plenty of water, and go home ( Doctors here are not very into natural products, so he would not have told me about milk thistle, artichoke, black radish, and the like...  but I found them by myself and use them still to this day :) )

Despite clinical tests to show it, my symptoms were made it very clear that my hepatic function was lacking.  For years, I had sleepiness and fatigue after meals and a yellowish complexion.  Intolerance to alcohol was obvious and is still very present, but I do not drink alcohol anymore ( If once or twice a year, I drink half a glass of wine, I will take vitamin B1 and vitamin C before, to help my deficient ALDH2 do its work, so I will not be too affected by the toxic aldehyde metabolite ).   I also suspect that part of my exercise intolerance is caused by my slow liver because anaerobic metabolism increases the work required by the liver.
I have worked on my guts too.  I took very good strains of probiotics for years.  I have eliminated sugars for years too.  I have a very healthy diet.   I have tested a gluten-free diet, but no change for me, gluten does not bother me.   But any unhealthy food does bother me, and large meals are prohibited... as long as I eat healthy, organic food, always in a moderate amount at a time, my digestion is ok.

While, for POIS, it is the use of my pre-pack that really makes a difference, the fact that I keep my liver healthy is contributing to my overall success.  As I said in the thread explaining my method to eliminate 80% to 100% of my symptoms, it is an all-around approach.   A healthy diet, healthy lifestyle, psychotherapy, meditation, etc.  And, of course, my pre-pack  ( see at  https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2090.msg16604#msg16604 for my complete method)
Interesting enough, my psychotherapy helped me a lot with my liver issues.  Learning to better manage my emotions have a great positive impact on my liver and digestion as a whole.  For example, I no more have outbursts of anger - these were hard on my liver...in the following days, I would turn more yellowish still.  Anger, in Chinese Medicie, is strongly associated with the liver.   Also, having no more anxiety attacks or excessive anxiety, I have no heartburns anymore, as long as I do not eat very acidic food or very spicy food.  Anxiety used to cause me stomach aches, even while eating acid-free food.  POIS, by raising sharply my baseline level of anxiety, was very bad for my stomach!
For about 15 years, not, I have turned to a very healthy diet and began to take great care of my liver.  I guess that thanks to this change, I avoided developing non-alcoholic fatty liver disease or something similar.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 08:59:23 PM by Quantum »
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Dgf5

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Pois day 2 or 3?
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2022, 01:12:59 PM »
I have tested this thoery time and time again but day 2/3 after ejaculation I experience flu symptoms without fever. Fatigue pain sore throat low back pain chills etc.

I have tested this thoery around 40 times to make sure I'm not going insane. The day I ejaculate or day after I feel great then I get hit with the flu symptoms so bad I can't actually work.

I don't understand as on here it says pois starts almost immediately. Does this mean I don't have pois?

Mr Raba

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Re: Pois day 2 or 3?
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2022, 11:56:31 PM »
What are you describing fits very well with POIS.  There is a delay in symptom onset that is highly variable from person to person.  But typically O day is not too bad, day 1 is bad, and day 2 is worst, day 3 considerable better etc.  With for most people most symptoms resolving within 7 days.

So what you described is par for course.  I find that taking strong chamomile tea helps the the flue, sore throat, desperate brain, fiery. Brain, anxiety, tension, etc, etc, way down within an hour.  So relief after O is possible. 
Simultaneous onset of CFS and POIS since Feb 1993. Married since 1989.

Helped by Immunocal (I explained how to take in previous posts).  Some relief on day one and day two.  It affects neurotransmitters.

Journey

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Re: Pois day 2 or 3?
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2022, 11:53:08 AM »
You have POIS

Hopeoneday

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Re: Re: Pois day 2 or 3?
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2022, 12:49:09 PM »
Delayed pois type, i hawe it too.. inflamation hitting on day two..
Somtimes hit me first day(some symtoms).

This is the reason that some people do not conect it to POIS
for 20 years , evan more...
Dr-pois.

BoneBroth

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Re: Re: Pois day 2 or 3?
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2022, 01:56:20 PM »
I dont think most symptoms comes from what happens directly during orgasm (besides the sudden head ache), but is a direct cause of a gradually increased inflammation that reduce the organs capacity to maintain full capacity. The peak of this inflammation might have to do with the property and levels of the diffrent break down products of the hormones beeing released during orgasm. When the liver break down certain hormones, the intermediate stages might be more harmful then the initial hormons. Perhaps theese substances reach a peak during day 3 (which makes it very important to take approproiate actions during this day, to mimimize the possibility for theese substances to do harm, for example drinking much water, taking antioxidants and not burden the body with too difficult food to digest).
« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 02:03:19 PM by BoneBroth »

berlin1984

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Re: Re: Pois day 2 or 3?
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2022, 03:42:11 PM »
directly during orgasm (besides the sudden head ache)

... not everyone has that one, e.g. I don't. I get it on the next day (or in evening if sex was in afternoon) but not always.

Sexual headache seems to be an overlapping condition.

DanielS20

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Re: What could explain the delayed onset of symptoms that some people have?
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2022, 05:07:25 AM »
Hello everyone. I have been following the topic of POIS for a very long time, but decided to write for the first time.

I feel as bad as possible closer to sleep the second day after O.

In general, the progression of my symptoms is as follows:

1. Nocturnal emission. Within an hour after, I start to shiver, I get very cold. What's really interesting is that my temperature used to drop to 35.3. In recent months, on the contrary, it rises to 37 - 37.2. I also have a stuffy nose and seething in my stomach.

2. In the morning I feel more or less. I do my usual business.

3. Drowsiness and laziness appear at lunchtime.

4. It gets worse in the evening. Muscle aches appear, you want to lie down, there is a feeling of anger and a feeling of tearfulness as well as a feeling of strong appetite. Before going to sleep, there is a ringing in the ears, stuffy ears.

5. The first night after O, I have very intense nightmares. (On the second and third day, nightmares also dream, but they gradually diminish)

6. The day after O (second day), I wake up completely overwhelmed. There is fog in the head, runny nose and sneezing, severe anger, depression, very strong weakness. During this day, chronic diseases, especially ostechondrosis, begin to appear.

7. Towards the evening of the second day it gets as bad as possible. It is impossible to sleep normally or lie still, the feeling that the body is breaking, and the skin is burning. The head starts to hurt a lot. At this moment I am drinking pain reliever.

8. The third day is kind of similar to the second. But the general condition is felt to be calmer. And then, day after day, the symptoms subside.

mike_sweden

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Re: What could explain the delayed onset of symptoms that some people have?
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2022, 06:53:15 AM »
Sleep seems to have impact on delay

BoneBroth

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Re: What could explain the delayed onset of symptoms that some people have?
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2022, 10:17:34 AM »
Sleep is when the liver is working hard with detoxification. This constantly changes the composition of the hormonal biochemicals that circulates in the blood vessels causing harm to organs which manifests like nightmares, head ache or temperature shifts. During sleep there is also blood circulation changes - more blood reaches the brain in horisontal position (nightmares, head ache) and at the same time blood circulation go down on body parts that are not acticve (muscles) or are pinched depending on sleeping position (arms, hands).

Inflammatory blood substances could "load up" in theese parts and cause pain there the folloing day. I think its important to have a good blood circulation during the whole POIS period and eat things that dilute the blood. When I feel the hot flash and night mares in the night I immidiatly take a vitamin C and drink half a glass of water and go to th etoilet (move the body). Thet I use to feel cooler and can have 1-2 hours of better sleep. This might have to be repeated 2-3 times a night when its at worst (POIS day 2-4). A good sleep with good detoxification, blood circulation and diluted blood might in combination shorten the POIS period and relive the burden on the body.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 10:20:12 AM by BoneBroth »