Author Topic: Is POIS a version of CFS?  (Read 57202 times)

Journey

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #100 on: January 12, 2022, 04:26:04 PM »
My symptoms are quite similar to it


Muon

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #102 on: January 17, 2022, 10:09:06 AM »
And now this amazing article that explains why amino acids, vasodilators, immune mediators help both POIS and CFS. It is an irrigation issue!

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2021/12/08/energy-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-immunometabolic-disease/

Stellate Ganglion Block: Blood flow.
https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2021/12/28/stellate-ganglion-long-covid-fibromyalgia

Discussion thread:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=4098.0
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 11:24:29 AM by Muon »

Progecitor

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #103 on: September 06, 2022, 02:15:20 PM »
I still believe that cellular senescence is the most logically sound explanation to our ails. This also explains the similarity in the pharmacological approach in the treatment of both CFS and POIS and several other diseases as well (e.g. asthma, multiple sclerosis, postcovid, etc). The most notable difference is in the affected tissues that makes it seem like they are completely different illnesses when in truth they stem from the same problem. In the case of POIS these cells are evidently located in the tissues and organs involved in reproduction. In my particular case I believe the origin is the prostate and with the senescence induced inflammation it can be simply described as prostatitis. For me prostatitis is a chronic phenomenon as I had POIS-like symptoms even after half a year without any sexual activity, so this phase may be more aptly considered as CFS. As said before following stimulation or stress senescent cells become activated, thus releasing even more cytokines than usual for a few days and this leads to the emergence of more severe POIS symptoms compared to the CFS phase when symptoms are rather subdued. As these cells normally have a role in sexual activity they are most potently stimulated by related activities and especially ejaculation. Other sources of stimulation like dietary elements are only secondary, however due to their additive and/or synergistic effect they can induce extreme POIS in case of acute onset and can be major determinants of symptom severity in the chronic phase of the disease.

Senescence also affects us on a psychological level which is almost funny when one considers how much our behavior resembles these cells. As senescent cells function incompletely they can't behave as normal cells do, so when they are put under pressure and expected to do things that a normal, healthy cell would be able to do easily, they can only respond by a kind of back-lash aggression. This is so much like the irritability that many of us describe. Senescence is also a normal process in aging, however it happens prematurely in our case. Still this makes us resemble a fatigued old man who lacks the capacity to do excessive physical work or at least act poorly when forced anyway. Somewhere it is even mentioned that senescent cells are kind of like zombie cells and in truth we ourselves our just like that after acute disease onset. So what I mean is that senescence is not only a cellular event, but is also reflected in our whole personality given adequate scrutiny. If only psychologists were more educated they should be able to easily diagnose people with senescence just by evaluating their behavioral patterns and with appropriate medications many of these diseases could be properly treated and static lives turned into lively ones.
The cause is probably the senescence of sexual organs and resultant inducible SASP, which also acts as a kind of non-diabetic metabolic syndrome.

Progecitor

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #104 on: September 23, 2022, 01:37:14 PM »
I find it really intriguing that so many aphrodisiacs are effective in my case. Mastic gum is no exception as it is a traditionally known aphrodisiac. It is however not clear if all of these supplements'  aphrodisiac properties are only due to an increase in testosterone. I can only guess there is a convergence between aphrodisiacs and the mechanisms of anti-inflammatory pathways. Of course I have no clear proof of this, but one still has to wonder about the coincidence.

A most likely explanation to this probable connection lies in the overexpression of the NRF2 pathway. Although in the past I thought that NRF2 may not play a significant role in my problems recently I had to realize that it must be one of the factors at its core. This is nothing new of course as NRF2 has a central role in the anti-oxidant response mechanism, however I feel its function lacks proper emphasis and discussion.

A guy who cured himself from CFS made a great article about NRF2.
https://mybiohack.com/blog/nrf2-cirs-sensitivities

A lot of the things he highlights about NRF2 reminds me of things what POISers were talking about on the site. Although he wanted to point out some of the drawbacks regarding NRF2 activation, most of the article describes its beneficial effects. He lists loads of NRF2 agonist supplements, most of which helped me, though with varying efficacy. Most importantly NRF2 activation can decrease pro-inflammatory cytokines, which must be an important aspect of its effects. It is also indicated that NRF2 activation can play a role in libido enhancement and sexual organ protection, however it is less clear if this can be generalized.

Although not in the list, but Giloy/Guduchi also potently activates NRF2 and acts as an aphrodisiac.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354468485_Tinospora_cordifolia_Willd_Miers_Protection_mechanisms_and_strategies_against_oxidative_stress-related_diseases

Mastic oil and its constituents all induce NRF2.
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3921/10/1/127/htm

There is abundant evidence that saffron also activates the NRF2 pathway.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Arian-Khoshandam/publication/361822359_Interaction_of_saffron_and_its_constituents_with_Nrf2_signaling_pathway_A_review/links/62ebcdb80b37cc34476dd64b/Interaction-of-saffron-and-its-constituents-with-Nrf2-signaling-pathway-A-review.pdf

It may also explain why exercise intolerance develops as (premature-) aging turns NRF2 signaling defective which impairs proper responses to exercise.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2017.00268/full

It was a bit surprising to see Lansoprazole as an activator as it also helped me in the past. Well there are a number of other interesting inducers, but too many to list them here, so check at the link.
Some controversies do exist though. For one apigenin, quercetin and luteolin may work dose-dependently, so their effects are less predictable. Another one is that fenugreek was indicated as an inhibitor, but it is also a source of dioscin and diosgenin both of which clearly increase NRF2 expression. Needless to say this also makes maca an NRF2 inducer.
https://saudijournals.com/media/articles/SJBR_410_318-323.pdf

It also seems contradictory that testosterone is indicated to reduce NRF2 while a number of supplements that increase NRF2 are actually testosterone boosters like damiana, mangosteen, maca, tribulus, zinc, beta-ecdysterone, tongkat ali and probably more.

He also proposes a regime based on hormesis which means an intermittent intake of a combination of NRF2 inducers that may act in synergy for an increased benefit, however the episodic intake may help to avoid the potential pitfalls of prolonged NRF2 overexpression.

Another good deal of NRF2 inducers can be found at Table 1. in the following article. It is quite a good thing that it also details many trace elements, vitamins and amino acids.
https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/21/12/4484/htm

Well this latter review provides much more information than just about NRF2. It puts our whole problem in a context as I believe that premature aging (senescence) of sexual organs is the most likely cause of POIS.

It is common knowledge that covid-19 causes pro-inflammatory cytokine storm and it was discussed earlier that NRF2 agonist agents may serve to ameliorate this state.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3733.msg40429#msg40429

NRF2 signaling can be also connected to the earlier model of metabolic syndrome.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-08899-7

Some additional information that could serve to complement this:
1. Prolonged endurance exercise can significantly reduce Serca2a expression if NRF2 is deficient.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2017.00268/full
2. Combined PPARA and NRF2 upregulation causes the downregulation of SREBP-1c and NF-kB.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/mnfr.201700479
3.  PGC-1alpha potentiates the function of NRF1 and NRF2.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413111002117
4. NRF2 activation inhibits TGFbeta signaling.
https://openheart.bmj.com/content/8/1/e001663.full
5. AP-1 subunit c-Jun can activate NRF2-induced transcription, while c-Fos can suppress it.
PPARG and estrogen receptor alpha can directly bind to NRF2 and suppress its activity.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7369905/
6. Estrogen can cause oxidative stress. SULT1E1 inactivates 17beta-estradiol. Oxidative stress induces SULT1E1 through Nrf2 activation. Estrogen also activates Nrf2 as control.
https://cancerci.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12935-019-0826-x
The cause is probably the senescence of sexual organs and resultant inducible SASP, which also acts as a kind of non-diabetic metabolic syndrome.

Progecitor

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #105 on: November 08, 2022, 01:56:17 AM »
Severe anxiety may be treated with a combination of N-acetyl-glucosamine (NAG), flaxseed oil and turmeric. There are some additional possible anxiolytics recommendations by a CFS sufferer.
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/completely-eliminated-my-severe-anxiety-symptoms-with-three-supplements.18369/
The cause is probably the senescence of sexual organs and resultant inducible SASP, which also acts as a kind of non-diabetic metabolic syndrome.

Progecitor

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #106 on: November 15, 2022, 04:08:56 PM »
A new study suggests that the mere impairment of spermatogenesis, a process also involving meiosis, may itself lead to a significant deterioration of the individual’s overall health. Hopefully researchers will realize that POIS is most likely a human role model for this exact phenomenon.

New Study Reveals How the Reproductive System Can Accelerate Aging and Worsen Health
The new study, led by researchers from the University of Pittsburgh and UPMC and published in the journal Aging Cell, found that disrupting a process called meiosis in C. elegans reproductive cells caused a decline in the worms' health and triggered an accelerated aging gene signature similar to that of aging humans.
"This study is exciting because it’s the first direct evidence that manipulating the health of reproductive cells leads to premature aging and a decline in healthspan," "The implications of this finding are profound: It suggests that the status of the reproductive system is important not simply to produce children, but also for overall health."
While the consequences of aging on fertility are well known, research in the past two decades has started to show that reproductive fitness also has an impact on human aging and health.
They discovered that animals with mutations in meiosis genes had shorter lives than their non-mutated counterparts. The mutants also had worse overall health ratings, including premature reductions in mobility, muscular function, and memory.
"The exciting part of this healthspan work was that these animals also showed signs of disrupted protein homeostasis," said Ghazi. "Disruption to the balance of proteins inside cells is at the heart of age-related neurodegenerative diseases, like Alzheimer's disease."
When the researchers improved protein homeostasis in the worms, some loss of lifespan was prevented. These findings point to disrupted proteostasis as a key mechanism linking reproductive health and aging.
"In human terms, it's like someone in their early 20s having the physical appearance, physiology, and gene signatures of a 70-year-old," explained Ghazi.
"Messing with meiosis has dramatic effects on healthspan and accelerates aging in C. elegans."

https://scitechdaily.com/new-study-reveals-how-the-reproductive-system-can-accelerate-aging-and-worsen-health/
The cause is probably the senescence of sexual organs and resultant inducible SASP, which also acts as a kind of non-diabetic metabolic syndrome.

Muon

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2023, 12:57:57 PM »

b_jim

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2023, 01:41:24 PM »
Amazing Muon :)
You're still doing a fantastic job after so many years :)
Taurine = Anti-Pois
Lyme disease "cured" in 2020.

Muon

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #109 on: March 29, 2023, 06:51:28 PM »
Amazing Muon :)
You're still doing a fantastic job after so many years :)
It actually makes me sad when I think about how much time I have spent on this forum. :(

Here is a tweet from Michael VanElzakker:
https://twitter.com/MBVanElzakker/status/896841175973457922

Muon

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #110 on: October 26, 2023, 08:38:59 AM »
Quote from: J.G
It's worth noting that observations regarding POIS in / and / or MECFS go back (at least) some 25 years. Noted ME specialist Dr. Jay Goldstein in his 1996 Betrayal by the Brain:

"Several of my male patients have complained that they feel exhausted for several days after ejaculating. Although little is known about the central neurochemistry of orgasm, it appears that NE [norepinephrine] facilitates it, and that NE is depleted after ejaculation. If a male neurosomatic patient were deficient in NE prior to sexual activity, ejaculation could thereby worsen his symptoms" (Goldstein 1996: 63).

Norepinephrine is synthesised from dopamine. Goldstein postulates a "dopaminergic hypofunction" in MECFS.
Ref


Book download links: https://annas-archive.org/search?q=betrayal+by+the+brain

It's on page 63.

Treatment protocol for neurosomatic patients can be found on page 16.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2023, 08:54:57 AM by Muon »

hurray

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #111 on: October 26, 2023, 06:57:33 PM »
Quote from: J.G
It's worth noting that observations regarding POIS in / and / or MECFS go back (at least) some 25 years. Noted ME specialist Dr. Jay Goldstein in his 1996 Betrayal by the Brain:

"Several of my male patients have complained that they feel exhausted for several days after ejaculating. Although little is known about the central neurochemistry of orgasm, it appears that NE [norepinephrine] facilitates it, and that NE is depleted after ejaculation. If a male neurosomatic patient were deficient in NE prior to sexual activity, ejaculation could thereby worsen his symptoms" (Goldstein 1996: 63).

Norepinephrine is synthesised from dopamine. Goldstein postulates a "dopaminergic hypofunction" in MECFS.
Ref


Book download links: https://annas-archive.org/search?q=betrayal+by+the+brain

It's on page 63.

Treatment protocol for neurosomatic patients can be found on page 16.

Well, that would help to explain why a NE (norepinephrine) reuptake inhibitor (milnacipran) prevents my POIS symptoms post-O.

Muon

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #112 on: December 25, 2023, 09:54:51 AM »
I actually flew to LA to see Dr. Jay Golgstein circa 1990.  Such a nice guy. I had read his book. Maybe it was not fully published then.

He has written more books, you have probably read some of his early work:
1993, Chronic Fatigue Syndromes : The Limbic Hypothesis
1992, The Clinical and Scientific Basis of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (free ebook at the bottom of the webpage)
1991, Could your doctor be wrong?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2023, 10:12:47 AM by Muon »

Muon

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #113 on: January 26, 2024, 12:52:41 PM »
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/postorgasmic-illness-syndrome-pois.81982/page-3#post-2452269
A new post in the POIS thread (thread is invisible to non-members) on Phoenix Rising forum from dysfunkion:

"I have POIS and have had it for years. It feels like I use up all of my neurotransmitters and can't find a balance again for a while and I also get flu like symptoms too. Very lethargic and out of it, as if my brain isn't getting enough juice. I can't think, be social well, or enjoy anything. Depending on how much I orgasmed and other unknown factors it can hang around for 1-3 days usually."

less_fogged

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #114 on: April 03, 2024, 03:36:46 AM »
I've regularly been following poiscenter since it's very beginnings and was also on the previous NSF forum. Been living with POIS for over 36 years now. Like most of you it's had a pretty big impact on the quality of my life. I remind you all again, I've experienced all known symptoms of POIS, sometimes changing in severity in different stages of my life. My approach over the years with trial and error was making me either better or worse. I've had endless examinations and tests done on me and they never found something significant. The fact that a diagnosis for POIS still not exists always felt like a dead end. But now I've been diagnosed with NE/CFS. I'm stunned as I've always considered myself a pretty fit person! Just feel like huffing and puffing while in POIS!

I was diagnosed after a CT scan for the brain together with Neurospect.

I suppose I must have POIS and NE/CFS overlapping each other, or is it a version of NE/CFS!?

I'm sure there must be more POIS members that are in the unknown about this. I really did not know what to expect for the outcome of results after the test. I did not expect anything as I was pretty used to the idea of not finding anything significant! I don't think it would influence my test results but just in case; I had 3 ejaculations in the 2 days before the scan test. Apparently there is no blood circulation in the front of my frontal lobe!

Muon

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #115 on: April 03, 2024, 04:29:03 AM »
as if my brain isn't getting enough juice.
Apparently there is no blood circulation in the front of my frontal lobe!

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2024/03/24/voracious-brains-inflammation-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-conference/
Quote
why were the brain cells of the ME/CFS-like long-COVID patients eating up so much oxygen? (Oxygen is the substance that generates ATP (energy) for the brain). A reduction in blood flows to the brain could do it.

demografx

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #116 on: April 04, 2024, 03:57:28 PM »

I've regularly been following poiscenter since it's very beginnings and was also on the previous NSF forum…


less_fogged, thank you for being with us all the way back - - from the beginning NSF years!

POISCenter’s predecessor NSF days began in….2007!

« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 03:59:55 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

less_fogged

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #117 on: April 05, 2024, 02:29:54 PM »

I've regularly been following poiscenter since it's very beginnings and was also on the previous NSF forum…


less_fogged, thank you for being with us all the way back - - from the beginning NSF years!

POISCenter’s predecessor NSF days began in….2007!

Registered on the forum about 9 years ago but was following since the year before that. Now I also want to better understand ME/CFS but will keep following poiscenter. As like all of us, always hoping for a real breakthrough for POIS. We deserve it. Thanks to all members and founders following this site, more scientists have taken POIS more seriously.

One tip I want to give especially to the younger people with POIS is don't let this illness dominate your life but keep fighting it. All participating on this forum makes us stronger.

Progecitor

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #118 on: April 08, 2024, 01:11:16 PM »
I've regularly been following poiscenter since it's very beginnings and was also on the previous NSF forum. Been living with POIS for over 36 years now. Like most of you it's had a pretty big impact on the quality of my life. I remind you all again, I've experienced all known symptoms of POIS, sometimes changing in severity in different stages of my life. My approach over the years with trial and error was making me either better or worse. I've had endless examinations and tests done on me and they never found something significant. The fact that a diagnosis for POIS still not exists always felt like a dead end. But now I've been diagnosed with ME/CFS. I'm stunned as I've always considered myself a pretty fit person! Just feel like huffing and puffing while in POIS!

I was diagnosed after a CT scan for the brain together with Neurospect.

I suppose I must have POIS and ME/CFS overlapping each other, or is it a version of ME/CFS!?

I'm sure there must be more POIS members that are in the unknown about this. I really did not know what to expect for the outcome of results after the test. I did not expect anything as I was pretty used to the idea of not finding anything significant! I don't think it would influence my test results but just in case; I had 3 ejaculations in the 2 days before the scan test. Apparently there is no blood circulation in the front of my frontal lobe!

I think a very recent research could provide an explanation for this phenomenon.

"Hypoxic pockets" could point to Alzheimer's risk
The brain cannot survive long without oxygen, a concept demonstrated by the neurological damage that quickly follows a stroke or heart attack. But what happens when very small parts of the brain are denied oxygen for brief periods? This question was not even being asked by researchers until the team in the Nedergaard lab began to look closely at the new recordings. While monitoring the mice, the researchers observed that specific tiny areas of the brain would go dark, sometimes for minutes, meaning that the oxygen supply was being cut off.
Oxygen is circulated throughout the brain via a vast network of arteries and smaller capillaries-or microvessels-which permeate brain tissue. Through a series of experiments, the researchers were able to determine that oxygen was being denied due to capillary stalling, which occurs when white blood cells temporarily block microvessels and prevent the passage of oxygen carrying red blood cells. These areas, which the researchers named "hypoxic pockets," were more prevalent in the brains of mice during a resting state, compared to when the animals were active. Capillary stalling is believed to increase with age and has been observed in models of Alzheimer's disease.
"The door is now open to study a range of diseases associated with hypoxia in the brain, including Alzheimer's, vascular dementia, and long COVID, and how a sedentary lifestyle, aging, hypertension, and other factors contribute to these diseases," said Nedergaard. "It also provides a tool to test different drugs and types of exercise that improve vascular health and slow down the road to dementia."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/03/240328162557.htm

By the way have you ever tried ginkgo biloba? It is specifically known to help with brain circulation.
I can also share an interesting and very scary experience in this relation, which happened when I was testing black poplar tincture a few months ago. It turned out that black poplar tincture can help alleviate depression at least temporarily, but when I increased the dosage above recommendation I experienced a very scary throbbing blood rush in my head, which usually happened a few hours after intake. I often took burdock tincture in parallel, but I believe this effect was mostly due to black poplar. Pinocembrin might be suspected in this regard, however I had no such problems with damiana, which also helps. It is true though that I have not tried excessive dosages of that one. Nevertheless if you decide to try black poplar, please be very-very-very careful. Ginkgo biloba was also said to have possible adverse effects, so be cautious of that one as well.
The cause is probably the senescence of sexual organs and resultant inducible SASP, which also acts as a kind of non-diabetic metabolic syndrome.

less_fogged

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Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
« Reply #119 on: April 17, 2024, 08:49:29 AM »
By the way have you ever tried ginkgo biloba?

I've tried ginkgo biloba many years ago. As far as I remember I was struggling with finding the correct dosage to take, so sometimes I was feeling worse off.
At the moment I'm trying a medical recipe that my doc wants me to test which includes Meldonium. He spoke to me about it before when he was suspecting I might also have CFS.  Will see how it goes.

I still feel like I have a version of CFS with POIS, fatigue with the mental symptoms and sometimes the muscle symptoms. In my case difficult muscle issues often depend on temperature changes. So muscle issues not necessarily always present except stiffness especially when awakening.

I'm sure it's possible more people are unaware of living with CFS combined with POIS. These people are not necessarily tired all the time. Fatigue issues seem to come for many with this group especially when doing too much physical activity (also mental strain) and then the symptoms arise 24 or even 36 hours later. IF you ejaculate after physical activity then you have the two overlapping. So both illnesses seem to have that peek with symptoms severity in day 2. CFS people are also considered having immune issues. In my case I believe it's a miss communication between brain and body, ultimately leading to stress in the body. And probably the reason why many young POISers confess ejaculating too frequently when younger and then laying the link over the years. The symptoms end up being very similar or even the same in the end!