Author Topic: Opioids  (Read 2135 times)

Alessandro84

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Opioids
« on: March 12, 2015, 09:41:35 AM »
Hello,
I think that POIS is only a symptom of low endorphins.
If you read opioids withdrawal, the symptoms are really similar to POIS.
If a person masturbate or use sex to counteract low endorphins, an orgasm causes a small surge of endorphins and a drop far below the initial (already low) level.
Moreover, endorphins regulate noradrenaline in the brain, so, low endorphins mean high noradrenaline/adrenaline, therefore anxiety.
Does anyone try Vicodin or Tramadol after orgasm?

Scary sheep

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Re: Opioids
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2015, 10:58:11 AM »
Wouldn't taking opioids help with POIS symptoms, though? I've been on Vicodin codeine for various surgeries, and I've never felt any relief from symptoms.
Symptoms last 6-7 days. Onset of muscle weakness after 30 seconds. Symptoms include: brain fog, fatigue, depression, pale skin/dark circles under eyes,  digestive problems, difficulty taking a full breath, irritability. NONE of these are present out of POIS.

Alessandro84

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Re: Opioids
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2015, 11:12:31 AM »
Do you use Vicodin right after orgasm and continue through the week?

Labyrinth

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Re: Opioids
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2015, 01:41:08 PM »
i think it wont help . and i think pois is not just a hormonal . the hormonal issue is secondary to other problem which i think it is immune in nature
POIS of 10 yrs now

Prospero

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Re: Opioids
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2020, 10:58:40 AM »
Up. Just to say that, on the advice of my doctor, I tried to replace my (previous) use of Paracetamol 500 mg, taken directly after orgasm in order to attenuate the symptoms, with what is sold in France under the name Ixprim : Paracetamol 325 mg + Tramadol 37,5 mg. The effect was amazing : I had absolutely no POIS symptom. I tried this on monday, we're thursday, everything was ok. Paracetamol alone was already quite efficient, but there was still some fatigue, I really needed to sleep in the evening of the first day, and I had some mild symptoms the following days.

I don't know if it's the opioids in tramadol, the soft SSRI effect, the NMDAR blocking properties or something else that made the difference, but it's still notable. I will not re-use it on a regular basis though, as it seems to be quite addictive - and it's a "heavy" medicine.

Muon

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Re: Opioids
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2020, 11:18:40 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramadol#Mechanism_of_action

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol#Pharmacology

"Positron emission tomography studies during orgasm have shown brain activations mainly in the anterior lobe of the cerebellar vermis and deep cerebellar nuclei and deactivations in the left ventromedial and orbitofrontal cortex. While these are similar between genders, in men there is additional activation in the periaqueductal gray matter" Ref

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_receptor#Major_subtypes

Location periaqueductal gray matter: kappa & mu opioid receptors.

Opioid receptors <---> immune system:

The periaqueductal gray matter mediates opiate-induced immunosuppression

Opioid mediated effects on the immune system: sympathetic nervous system involvement

Voltage-gated dependent calcium channels and opioid receptors?:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_receptor#Mechanism_of_activation
"it produces a voltage-dependent block, which inhibits the channel, preventing the flow of calcium ions into the neuron"
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2545.msg32239#msg32239

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioidergic
VandeMolen had major improvement with Cannabidiol (CBD). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allosteric_modulator
"allosteric modulators are a group of substances that bind to a receptor to change that receptor's response to stimulus"
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 01:56:24 PM by Muon »

Prospero

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Re: Opioids
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2020, 07:15:54 PM »
Very interesting, thank you.

If I'm not mistaken, your perspective is something like the exact opposite of nanna1's theory regarding bad endorphin signalling-mediated immune suppression. Tramadol would stimulate the sympathetic nervous system and suppress NK and other immune cells, while due to POIS there is an immune overexpression.

Some points I'm not sure to understand:
- the sympathetic nervous system is presumably overstimulated in a POIS state, in comparison to the parasympathetic system - at least it looks so ;
- are not opioids supposed to have a relaxing effect and rather stimulate the parasympathetic system ?
- according to nanna1, an impaired beta-endorphin signalling should lead to immune suppression through adenylyl cyclase activation. I would have expected tramadol, as a mu-opioid agonist, 1/ to act somewhat as a replacement for beta-endorphins, and thus 2/ avoiding immune suppression (I don't know if these things are meaningful, I'm really an ignoramus regarding biology...). So this is clearly not the case ?

Prospero

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Re: Opioids
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2020, 08:03:03 AM »
Second experience with Tramadol / Paracetamol (Ixprim) : BAD.

This time I tried it after a nocturnal ejaculation (well, it was 8 am). After maybe 20 minutes I became more and more nervous. Around 10 am, as this nervosity was becoming greater and unpleasant, I was somewhat suspecting that Tramadol was not working as well as with the last orgasm, which was voluntary, maybe because the neurotransmitter cocktail was different in both cases (something with noradrenaline or serotonin, as Tramadol has SNRI properties). I decided to try being aroused and found something for this on the internet. I don't know if it was because of that or if it was simply the logical continuation of what I was enduring since 8.30 am, but after not more than 1 minute of mild arousal, things became very very bad. I started a big anxiety crisis, had important shivers, tachycardia, difficulties speaking and also a beginning of tetany but I managed to stop it. As it was quite frightening, I called the emergency medical service, the doctor (who also seemed to know POIS, apparently) told me it was a typical serotonin syndrome due to Tramadol. Now it's almost 2 pm in my country and most symptoms have vanished, though I'm still a bit nervous.

I suspect that I had several mild serotonin syndromes in the past, more or less linked to POIS. In particular, in september I tried to take 100 mg of L-theanine before sexual arousal (it's in Quantum's and nanna1's prepacks in higher quantities), and it gave me quite the same symptoms (though before that, it calmed me down and allowed me to masturbate a little without the immediate symptoms I usually encounter - maybe because L-theanine has both GABAergic and serotoninergic effects, or because it's a mast cells stabilizer).

I've read that some other people have experienced serotonin syndromes linked to POIS (notably berlin1884, if I remember well ?).

As for Tramadol, I'll definitively not re-use it, but this episode leads me to think that the benefits of my first trial were due not to the SNRI effect but to other properties of the opioids in it (well, it's not 100% sure, I guess). Also, I still don't have the usual post-orgasmic fatigue and this kind of thing. EDIT : I had absolutely no symptom remaining 24h later.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 05:57:54 PM by Prospero »

Journey

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Re: Opioids
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2020, 11:42:39 AM »
Second experience with Tramadol / Paracetamol (Ixprim) : BAD.

This time I tried it after a nocturnal ejaculation (well, it was 8 am). After maybe 20 minutes I became more and more nervous. Around 10 am, as this nervosity was becoming greater and unpleasant, I was somewhat suspecting that Tramadol was not working as well as with the last orgasm, which was voluntary, maybe because the neurotransmitter cocktail was different in both cases (something with noradrenaline or serotonin, as Tramadol has SNRI properties). I decided to try being aroused and found something for this on the internet. I don't know if it was because of that or if it was simply the logical continuation of what I was enduring since 8.30 am, but after not more than 1 minute of mild arousal, things became very very bad. I started a big anxiety crisis, had important shivers, tachycardia, difficulties speaking and also a beginning of tetany but I managed to stop it. As it was quite frightening, I called the emergency medical service, the doctor (who also seemed to know POIS, apparently) told me it was a typical serotonin syndrome due to Tramadol. Now it's almost 2 pm in my country and most symptoms have vanished, though I'm still a bit nervous.

I suspect that I had several mild serotonin syndromes in the past, more or less linked to POIS. In particular, in september I tried to take 100 mg of L-theanine before sexual arousal (it's in Quantum's and nanna1's prepacks in higher quantities), and it gave me quite the same symptoms (though before that, it calmed me down and allowed me to masturbate a little without the immediate symptoms I usually encounter - maybe because L-theanine has both GABAergic and serotoninergic effects, or because it's a mast cells stabilizer).

I've read that some other people have experienced serotonin syndromes linked to POIS (notably berlin1884, if I remember well ?).

As for Tramadol, I'll definitively not re-use it, but at least this episode induces me to think that the benefits of my first trial were due to the opioids in it and not to the SNRI effect. Also, I still don't have the usual post-orgasmic fatigue and this kind of thing.
Have you tried antiserotonigenics like the antihistamine called Cyproheptadine maybe POIS is caused by excess Serotonin actually?
INTP, 19 y.o. aware of POIS since 2019 when realized by abstaining that O/WD gives POIS, likely had it since puberty, fatigue, brainfog, clumsier, slower thinking/processing, voice volume goes down, sometimes harder to look in eyes, lower stamina/strength

Prospero

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Re: Opioids
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2020, 12:33:16 PM »
No, I never tried.
Generally speaking, I guess that there are almost as many POIS as there are POISers.