Xanthiol Nicotinate - Benefits, Risks and Function in POIS

[Observer]

I want to underline what Guthrie is saying. On my first report with niacin i told that i just took 100 mg. I got a very intense flush, but i had some minor symptoms of brain fog, some hours after the orgasm, and i could feel this symptoms( 10-20% intensity of usual POIS) in some moments during the next 36-48 hours. During that severely reduced POIS episode, i did not take more niacin, fenugreek or garlic. I just continued with my normal life, without taking care of my diet too, and i could appreciate that if POIS has been like that during the last 7 years i have been suffering this condition, it would have not supposed a significant problem in my daily life.

But the next week i used 200 mg 1 hour prior to sexual intercourse. Sometimes i got an intense flush, but other times(maybe because i ate only 2 hours before and because my body was beginning to be used to niacin) the flush was mild. In all the cases, the result has been the same: ABSOLUTELY NO POIS FOR ME; 100% free of symptoms of brain fog!. Flush has occurred in all the cases, but the intensity has been very very different and POIS has been blocked in some way!----> This points to me that the intensity of the flush is not the most important factor whenever you get it, but the amount of niacin taken, that it seems could change a lot depending on the person.

I agree on Guthrie that we should find a reasonable dose to not inflict damage on the liver and we need take it only when neccesary(i think it must be an error taking it every day!), and the dose that is working on me 100% seems to be more than 100 mg and less than 200 mg.

[Egordon]

I doubt you'd want to take 200 to 300mg of niacin daily due to possible liver damage. I'm not sure what the safe amount is to take daily.

Actually, I don't think this is necessarily true.  Obviously, it is important to be cautious in taking any supplement.  However, in pretty much all the different sources I've looked at, the 'liver-risky' dosage is often listed at 3 g (= 3000 mg) per day.  The lowest number that I've seen anywhere for a 'liver-risky' dosage is 1 g (= 1000 mg) per day.  On top of that, it is specifically the slow-release form of niacin that has the most risks for the liver.  As such, from what I've read, it seems that taking up to 1000 mg per day of the 'regular' (i.e. 'flushing') variety of niacin does not appear to be dangerous for the liver.  And so 300 mg per day would certainly seem to fall well within this non-risk range.

If I'm wrong about this, please correct me -- we shouldn't gloss over risks, but we also should avoid over-stating them.

I think you may have misunderstood some of the information out there. It's ONLY safe to take 1000mg of niacin a day if you're taking the slow release version. A great many people take between 500 - 1500 mg of niacin a day for cholesterol regulation, but all of that diffuses into your body over the course of 10 or so hours, so there's not an especially large shock to your liver.

[Guthrie]

Flush has occurred in all the cases, but the intensity has been very very different and POIS has been blocked in some way!----> This points to me that the intensity of the flush is not the most important factor whenever you get it, but the amount of niacin taken, that it seems could change a lot depending on the person.

I agree on Guthrie that we should find a reasonable dose to not inflict damage on the liver and we need take it only when neccesary(i think it must be an error taking it every day!), and the dose that is working on me 100% seems to be more than 100 mg and less than 200 mg.

Observer, thanks for adding your experiences.  I certainly think you're right that a person should take niacin "only when necessary."  In your case, that turns out to be 200 mg before an O.  However, it might be that for some people, that might not be sufficient, and so for them it could be good to test out taking it every day.  I don't know for sure, but it is something to test.  In my case, taking 300 mg improved my POIS a lot, but it did not get rid of it entirely -- so perhaps additional dosage is needed, either more just before O, or perhaps a taking some everyday.  Different people may be different, and we each person needs to test to find a way that works best for them -- while being careful with potential negative health effects, of course.

[Guthrie]

I think you may have misunderstood some of the information out there. It's ONLY safe to take 1000mg of niacin a day if you're taking the slow release version. A great many people take between 500 - 1500 mg of niacin a day for cholesterol regulation, but all of that diffuses into your body over the course of 10 or so hours, so there's not an especially large shock to your liver.

Egordon, no, I'm pretty sure that it is the slow release that is more dangerous to your liver.  I've seen this in multiple sources.

E.g. here: http://shipbrook.com/jeff/CoS/narconon/niacin.html

Evidence exists that sustained-release niacin, with respect to both dosage and severity, is more hepatotoxic than crystalline niacin. Three patients who developed hepatitis during treatment with sustained-release niacin were rechallenged with equivalent or higher doses of crystalline niacin, with no evidence of recurring hepatocellular damage.

Although the mechanism for niacin-induced hepatitis is unknown, these cases support previous observations that crystalline niacin may be less hepatotoxic than sustained-release preparations in certain patients. NIACIN (nicotinic acid) is an effective hypolipidemic agent available in several forms, including crystalline preparations ("regular" niacin) and various forms of sustained-release (or slow-release SR) capsules and caplets.

[Jon]

I see. Thanks Daveman.

I'm not sure if Niacin is working for me, I get a strange effect from it. Ive took almost 500 mg both times ive used it and have barely felt a flush either time, Only a little tingling in the face. Both times I had the O and both nights my sleep was very uncomfortable, Almost like im frozen in bed and it is very irritating to move, A very weird feeling. I do admit that I feel a little better ont he first day of POIS than usual but the effects are still there. Im using Gnc Niacin 250 mg tablets. Anyone else having these symptoms? Also does anyone know if its ok to take Cialis with Niacin.

Thanks guys.

[Jon]

P.S. I am very thankful to all of you who have helped me out because i would be totally lost without you.

[Daveman]

I see. Thanks Daveman.

I'm not sure if Niacin is working for me, I get a strange effect from it. Ive took almost 500 mg both times ive used it and have barely felt a flush either time, Only a little tingling in the face. Both times I had the O and both nights my sleep was very uncomfortable, Almost like im frozen in bed and it is very irritating to move, A very weird feeling. I do admit that I feel a little better ont he first day of POIS than usual but the effects are still there. Im using Gnc Niacin 250 mg tablets. Anyone else having these symptoms? Also does anyone know if its ok to take Cialis with Niacin.

Thanks guys.

I was just reading about "the flush". Those who most need it require more niacin to feel the flush. However by your description, it almost seems like you have the slow release kind. In any case, they say that for those who need more, the flush, or "side effects" can extend out over time, almost like it were the slow release kind.

I think that with time, the system adapts, and you come to more of a normal reaction.

When do you take the niacin, at night? Try it more in the morning and on an empty stomach. The effect of "empty stomach" is significant. Also crushing to powder creates a more rapid effect.

When the effect is more rapid, the longer term side effects should be lesser. So try crushing it and or taking it on a completely empty stomach. Start with lower amount, just in case, because the effect is dramatic.

[Jon]

I see.. interesting. Yes I do take it at night about 45 minutes before orgasm. Good tips, I will try not eating for a few hours and I will crush it. Can I ask what type of Niacin did you buy?

[Observer]

I see.. interesting. Yes I do take it at night about 45 minutes before orgasm. Good tips, I will try not eating for a few hours and I will crush it. Can I ask what type of Niacin did you buy?

This one is working wonders for me, Jon. http://www.solgar.com/SolgarProducts/Niacin-Vitamin-B3-100-mg-Tablets.htm

Hope you could find it easily!

[Guthrie]

Has anyone on the forum done comparison tests between regular niacin and nicotinamide, to see if the latter has any effect on POIS?

I have been taking 1000mg Niacinamide (not Nicotinamide) and I am told it is a non-flushing type and its been working very well.... at 1000mg dose few hours before.... but I have noted that taking it daily and having O when ever seems also to work decently also.....

And I need to also say AGAIN that my brain fog left once I stopped taking caffeine, no coffee, no softdrink/soda with caffeine, no chocolate.....

However I still suffer from anger, some social withdrawl, and as long as I am on Niacinamide the all over horrible body feelings are down 70%

PS.

A new and enouraging development: when I read POIS-SUFFERER's response, I was somewhat surprised.  Niacinamide (= Nicotinamide) is a non-flushing form of niacin.  So, since we had generally had been attributing the success of both niacin and XN to its flushing properties, then one would think that the non-flushing form wouldn't be effective for POIS.  But, it apparently *was* working for POIS-SUFFERER.  So, what to make of this seeming contradiction?

I said to myself, "Hmmm, what would Galileo do?"  So, I went out and got a bottle of Niacinamide (which is a non-flushing form -- not the same as 'slow release niacin', which *is* flushing, but has a spread-out, rather than concentrated effect).  Last night, I took two 550 mg capsules, for a total of 1100 mg.  There was no flush whatsoever.  Two and a half hours after taking the capsules, I had an O.  The next day: essentially 90% POIS-free!!!  Possibly even 95%! And, this was in terms of basically all of my normal POIS symptoms: brain fog, mood, concentration, energy.   Definitely a noticeable difference even from the effect of my last trial, with 300 mg of the regular (flushing) variety of niacin, and which had worked pretty well (80-85%).   It may be that the overall amount (1100 mg vs. 300 mg) had something to do with it as well.

So, while I'll have to test it again to rule out one-time effect or placebo, the non-flushing Niacinamide seems pretty clearly to have worked *very* well.  This seems to reconfigure our basic hypotheses about why niacin works: from this result, it would seem that it is not the flushing that makes a difference at all!  Rather, it would seem to have to be some property that regular (flushing) niacin also shares with the non-flushing variety.

So, what is that property?  Not sure at this point, but even just this result can help point us in the proper direction.  I will certainly be testing it again, and others may want to try Niacinamide/Nicotinamide to see how your results compare to the flushing variety.  In my case, it was also an added bonus not to have to experience the flush, which was often pretty uncomfortable for me with the itching/heat.

We shall see...

[Daveman]

OK, sounds interesting. I think it's still compatible with this line though
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=197.0

[Guthrie]

OK, sounds interesting. I think it's still compatible with this line though
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=197.0

Sure, that's a possibility, although there could also be other potential explanations.  I suppose from our general lack of technical medical-chemical testing, all we can really do is test what seems to work for us practically, and then see what conclusions we can draw from that.

[Daveman]

I'd like to see 4 or 5 fairly well defined posibilities defined (not just niacin or auto-immune etc.) before we enter the research program, which I also hope we can enter early in the 2012!

[Jon]

Thanks, Observan and Daveman much appreciated. I do have another question for everyone if you don't mind.

Does anyone get a symptom of feeling tired except its not tired its almost like a weakness where you feel if you close your eyes you'll forget where you are and almost fall out? You can almost close your eyes and taper off almost anywhere and you feel kind of weak? The first time I took Niacin this symptoms was much improved and I was much more alert. But this time its very difficult to do things on the go and its a very crappy weak kind of feeling. Its hard to anticipate things because its almost like your half asleep. Say I have plans for the weekend.. I can hear them but I cant actual anticipate them meaning I cant picture the place or anything in my head. If I pull up somewhere I have to concentrate on the building im going into because I sometimes almost forget where im going.

Does anyone else experience this? And if so can anything be done about it?

Thanks, Jon.

[MrMoonJr]

Concentration is a big thing for many of us. Its weird... Sometimes I can look at something and then look away and forget what it looked like... Its very hard to deal with especially when you have a busy life... I havent tried niacin yet, im waiting for my current pois episode symptoms to clear before I try it.. but I found water to me at least gives me a slight placebo effect and makes me feel a bit better... but definatley a placebo effect.

[b_jim]

Jon I think the same. My last test with niacin improves my cognitive symptomes. I prefer to wait because I'm an anxious person so in 2-3 months I can say if it's placebo or not.
To describe the symptom, I prefer to use the words "dream-like feeling". I suspect serotonin pathway because all seems linked : B3,tryptophan,moods change/serotonin, insomnia/melatonin...

B-3 is needed to synthetize hormones like insulin. After 3 years of low glycemic diet, it improves my Pois of 50%.

B-3 is needed to synthetize sexual hormones like testosterone, progesterone, oestrogens... 

[Daveman]

Jon, b_jim,

You're saying that WITH niacin you get the "dream-like" state?

Or it's a symptom, brain-fog realtive,  that's relieved with niacin?

[Jon]

Its a very unalert state, More of a weakness than tired but can close my eyes and fall out anytime. It is part of my regular POIS and is constant for me but Niacin did help a little bit the first time. I'm wondering if theres anyone else thay experiences this and also what can be done about it?

You the man, Daveman ! Much appreciated.

[lauracostis]

Has anyone on the forum done comparison tests between regular niacin and nicotinamide, to see if the latter has any effect on POIS?

I have been taking 1000mg Niacinamide (not Nicotinamide) and I am told it is a non-flushing type and its been working very well.... at 1000mg dose few hours before.... but I have noted that taking it daily and having O when ever seems also to work decently also.....

And I need to also say AGAIN that my brain fog left once I stopped taking caffeine, no coffee, no softdrink/soda with caffeine, no chocolate.....

However I still suffer from anger, some social withdrawl, and as long as I am on Niacinamide the all over horrible body feelings are down 70%

PS.

A new and enouraging development: when I read POIS-SUFFERER's response, I was somewhat surprised.  Niacinamide (= Nicotinamide) is a non-flushing form of niacin.  So, since we had generally had been attributing the success of both niacin and XN to its flushing properties, then one would think that the non-flushing form wouldn't be effective for POIS.  But, it apparently *was* working for POIS-SUFFERER.  So, what to make of this seeming contradiction?

I said to myself, "Hmmm, what would Galileo do?"  So, I went out and got a bottle of Niacinamide (which is a non-flushing form -- not the same as 'slow release niacin', which *is* flushing, but has a spread-out, rather than concentrated effect).  Last night, I took two 550 mg capsules, for a total of 1100 mg.  There was no flush whatsoever.  Two and a half hours after taking the capsules, I had an O.  The next day: essentially 90% POIS-free!!!  Possibly even 95%! And, this was in terms of basically all of my normal POIS symptoms: brain fog, mood, concentration, energy.   Definitely a noticeable difference even from the effect of my last trial, with 300 mg of the regular (flushing) variety of niacin, and which had worked pretty well (80-85%).   It may be that the overall amount (1100 mg vs. 300 mg) had something to do with it as well.

So, while I'll have to test it again to rule out one-time effect or placebo, the non-flushing Niacinamide seems pretty clearly to have worked *very* well.  This seems to reconfigure our basic hypotheses about why niacin works: from this result, it would seem that it is not the flushing that makes a difference at all!  Rather, it would seem to have to be some property that regular (flushing) niacin also shares with the non-flushing variety.

So, what is that property?  Not sure at this point, but even just this result can help point us in the proper direction.  I will certainly be testing it again, and others may want to try Niacinamide/Nicotinamide to see how your results compare to the flushing variety.  In my case, it was also an added bonus not to have to experience the flush, which was often pretty uncomfortable for me with the itching/heat.

We shall see...

Guthrie, keep us posted on how the Niacinamide is working.  I agree with you that the flush may not have anything to do with the effectiveness of Niacin on pois.  I stated earlier that in the medical field that the flush is a side effect and has no effect on any of the therapeutic uses we have for Niacin.  What I am trying to say is that I don't know of any uses for niacin in medicine where the flush needs to be felt to have a therapeutic effect on the patient.  It would be nice to see some more tests by people so we can determine the effectiveness of flush free niacin, which would be better to take to aviod having a flush every time especially for people who highly sensitive to the niacin flush.  I personally took 50mg a few years back and had the worst possible reaction. 

[victor.kons]

Has anyone on the forum done comparison tests between regular niacin and nicotinamide, to see if the latter has any effect on POIS?

I have been taking 1000mg Niacinamide (not Nicotinamide) and I am told it is a non-flushing type and its been working very well.... at 1000mg dose few hours before.... but I have noted that taking it daily and having O when ever seems also to work decently also.....

And I need to also say AGAIN that my brain fog left once I stopped taking caffeine, no coffee, no softdrink/soda with caffeine, no chocolate.....

However I still suffer from anger, some social withdrawl, and as long as I am on Niacinamide the all over horrible body feelings are down 70%

PS.

A new and enouraging development: when I read POIS-SUFFERER's response, I was somewhat surprised.  Niacinamide (= Nicotinamide) is a non-flushing form of niacin.  So, since we had generally had been attributing the success of both niacin and XN to its flushing properties, then one would think that the non-flushing form wouldn't be effective for POIS.  But, it apparently *was* working for POIS-SUFFERER.  So, what to make of this seeming contradiction?

I said to myself, "Hmmm, what would Galileo do?"  So, I went out and got a bottle of Niacinamide (which is a non-flushing form -- not the same as 'slow release niacin', which *is* flushing, but has a spread-out, rather than concentrated effect).  Last night, I took two 550 mg capsules, for a total of 1100 mg.  There was no flush whatsoever.  Two and a half hours after taking the capsules, I had an O.  The next day: essentially 90% POIS-free!!!  Possibly even 95%! And, this was in terms of basically all of my normal POIS symptoms: brain fog, mood, concentration, energy.   Definitely a noticeable difference even from the effect of my last trial, with 300 mg of the regular (flushing) variety of niacin, and which had worked pretty well (80-85%).   It may be that the overall amount (1100 mg vs. 300 mg) had something to do with it as well.

So, while I'll have to test it again to rule out one-time effect or placebo, the non-flushing Niacinamide seems pretty clearly to have worked *very* well.  This seems to reconfigure our basic hypotheses about why niacin works: from this result, it would seem that it is not the flushing that makes a difference at all!  Rather, it would seem to have to be some property that regular (flushing) niacin also shares with the non-flushing variety.

So, what is that property?  Not sure at this point, but even just this result can help point us in the proper direction.  I will certainly be testing it again, and others may want to try Niacinamide/Nicotinamide to see how your results compare to the flushing variety.  In my case, it was also an added bonus not to have to experience the flush, which was often pretty uncomfortable for me with the itching/heat.

We shall see...

Guthrie, keep us posted on how the Niacinamide is working.  I agree with you that the flush may not have anything to do with the effectiveness of Niacin on pois.  I stated earlier that in the medical field that the flush is a side effect and has no effect on any of the therapeutic uses we have for Niacin.  What I am trying to say is that I don't know of any uses for niacin in medicine where the flush needs to be felt to have a therapeutic effect on the patient.  It would be nice to see some more tests by people so we can determine the effectiveness of flush free niacin, which would be better to take to aviod having a flush every time especially for people who highly sensitive to the niacin flush.  I personally took 50mg a few years back and had the worst possible reaction. 

I don't think anyone stated anywhere that the flush is needed to prevent POIS symptoms. I think no one said so. But it was told that it is recommended to seek for the flush at the start of taking Niacin. Because flush is an indicator that you indeed have Niacin and when flush goes out it is a good indicator that you have waited long enough and could proceed with O. But the flush is just an indicator.

With XN injections sometimes I have no flush at all, and the only parameter that matters is the dosage. With Niacin Acid tablets even when I have flush I might have break down into POIS if I choose too little dose or use bad tablets or don't wait long enough after taking tablets. The same is true for XN tablets. Only the quality of tablets, the timing and the dosage really matters. The flush is just indicator.

Victor