POISCENTER

General Category => What is POIS => Topic started by: Mr Raba on February 13, 2016, 11:31:27 AM

Title: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Mr Raba on February 13, 2016, 11:31:27 AM
Dear friends,

I have said this years before. I have realized that POIS and CFS are connected. The major difference is symptoms duration and O trigger. Otherwise symptoms, treatments, what makes things worse o better are almost identical.

Years after my saying this and being swiftly dismissed.  This forum is finding the slow and painful way the same things it took decades for CFS people to learn and discover. I believe POIS and CFS have the same underlying mechanism. I have both. But only because I stumbled into CFS on the web first. POIS did not exist on the web back in 1993! 

Now people find POIS and the label is put on. Perfect match. Search stops.

I believe that CFS and POIS are in the same disease spectrum. The answers to many questions asked here are already known and fully documented in CFS research. Like alcohol intolerance.

I think that in time POIS will be found to be a subset of CFS.


in CFS all these are involved:

Vagus nerve involvement
CNS imbalance
Macroglial cells involvement
Methylation involvement
Leaky gut and and abnormal microbine behavior.
Inability to read at times, or concentrate
Flu like symptoms
Sore throat
Headache
Night sweats
Excerciste intolerance
Hormonal axis imbalance
Immune and cytokine activation
Detox blocks
 Visual stress.
Low vit D
Borderline testosterone
Thyroid issues
Balance issues
Anxiety
Social anxiety
Word finding problems
Dysautonomia
Etc etc etc.


And the same supps work!  The list is too long to list. The match is almost incredible.

So please take a look and see for yourself. Lets not be so sure they are completely different diseases. They only differ on trigger and symptoms duration. Even the 2 to 5 day relapse is common. Some even months.


I have known several peolple that have both. Or actually relized they have CFS with O  trigget. As opposed to just CFS.
I even wonder if CFS in men is mostly found as POIS. Hence why men are underrepresented in CFS.


See this blog for starting to evaluate by yourself what the overlap is between CFS and POIS.
We can  leverage a lot of this research and spend our limited research funds in light of what an almost identical, hugely overlapping condition has already found out.

http://www.cortjohnson.org/

Good health to us all!  😊😊👍🏽
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS? Rituximab great hope.
Post by: demografx on February 13, 2016, 07:12:19 PM
This drug, Rituximub, poses a life-threatening side-effect that -- once it happens -- there's no turning back.

Please remove the reference and please do not recommend it on this forum.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Mr Raba on February 15, 2016, 03:11:00 PM
The censored drug  (in this forum) is used for multiple purposes. If you read my post carefully I did not recommend it. Just stated that  professional research trials have found it effective in CFS.  Not as something to try but as scientific medical research knowledge.

Since you are the administrator I have politely complied with your request.


If you want to completely remove mention of this drug you would need to erase it from your post too.

Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Stef on February 15, 2016, 05:08:04 PM
Dear friends,

I think that in time POIS will be found to be a subset of CFS...They only differ on trigger and symptoms duration.

I have known several peolple that have both. Or actually relized they have CFS with O  trigget. As opposed to just CFS.
I even wonder if CFS in men is mostly found as POIS. Hence why men are underrepresented in CFS.

Hi, mrrabba --

There are some overlapping symptoms between CFS and POIS. But there also some major differences.

Ejaculation is not and never has been considered a trigger for CFS. That's probably the biggest difference between the two conditions, and is an important one.

Also, one of the strict criteria for diagnosing CFS is severe post-exertional fatigue. But several forum members here have advised that exercise is a great help to them. One forum member has run a few marathons. Another is an avid cyclist -- he participated in a cycling tournament to raise funds for rare disorders for the University of Pennsylvania.

In fact, the Institute of Medicine believes that CFS should be re-named, “systemic exertion intolerance disease,” because this is such an outstanding symptom. http://www.webmd.com/chronic-fatigue-syndrome/news/20150210/new-name-new-criteria-for-chronic-fatigue-syndrome

As an aside, Rituximub is a drug that depletes B-cells, and is used only under the most compelling circumstances -- usually certain blood cancers and/or some very severe diagnosed autoimmune disorders. It's such a high-risk drug that only a limited number of physicians can even have access to it. It carries a black-box warning due to the risk of developing progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy (PML) -- a condition that is untreatable and fatal. I can't imagine it ever being considered for use in POIS.

Stef

Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on February 15, 2016, 08:44:46 PM
Thank you, mrraba.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: less_fogged on February 16, 2016, 10:05:10 AM
I couldn't agree more with Stef. Movement helps me recover. It's obviously harder to exercise while in POIS, I usually go at a slower pace or with more pauses but I imagine to be clearing away what has been released into my body/blood stream after ejaculation. For whatever reason; ejaculation after sex, masturbation or spontaneous emission (wet or not).
I even think exercising soon after ejaculation helps all-in-all with clearing away symptoms making them less aggressive. It might add to the fatigue by the end of the day but simultaneously think it can partly help with sleep. For me being active late in the day can also be counterproductive for sleep though as there is then interruption with adrenaline. Time is needed for the body to re adapt after exercise/fast walking.

Note: For me during POIS to feel as good as I can during the day I usually need to stay longer in bed than normal though.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Mr Raba on February 16, 2016, 11:56:04 AM
Can people with only POIS exercise extrenously for two consecutive days while under severe symptoms and if so what happens afterwards?

I understand that  when  with no symptoms POIS -only patients could feel almost normal. But how about while under the awful effects of O?  I am  referring to after extrenous aerobic exercise during a  POIS episode, not just movement.

Second. I am not suggesting that they are identical, but greatly overlapping. I have learned from both ilnesses for more than 20 years. The same systems are involved. Take a good look at CFS Research and you will get a huge de ja vu.  The look is to get insights on system involvement  and resulting symptoms so we can understand what systems cause what symptoms.

I have encountered the " not same disease, not worth a hard look"  response in the forum before. Yet year after year this forum patients "discovet" by trial an error the same things that people with CFS used for decades to alleviate Symptoms.  There are many nutritional approaches and supplemets that peple with CFS use that are worth taking a look (not just pharmaceuticals).

A very simple example: The low sugar, no gluten, no carbs, plus probiotics does wonders in CFS also due to microbione issues and keaky gut that kick up inflammation.  Been used in CFS since 1990s.

Just trying to alleviate suffering here,  it pains me to hear that for years this forum was unaware of so many strategists and supplements that were common  use among CFSers. As a reminder I have had both for 20 years and with the knowledge I have acquired  I am continually overcoming.  Also I think that both ilnesses are now close a cure from multiple fronts and approaches. It is coming....

😊👍🏾😊
Mr Raba

Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Quantum on February 16, 2016, 01:03:41 PM
Hi Mrraba,

I suggest you simply write on this forum a description of what is working for you, like what supplements you take ( safe dosage, timing,..) and what POIS symptoms they relieve, and to what extent, what diet and other life habits are part of your current approach, and what % of success you have with this approach, and what symptoms are still resisting to anything you have tried so far.  This would be valuable information for this forum :)  Those who will be willing to safely try some of what you have done will be free to do so, after having checked with a health professional if this is indeed safe for them, and suitable for them considering their health conditions and their current medication.

Thanks!




Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: superfrancais on February 16, 2016, 01:37:19 PM
Can people with only POIS exercise extrenously for two consecutive days while under severe symptoms and if so what happens afterwards?

I understand that  when  with no symptoms POIS -only patients could feel almost normal. But how about while under the awful effects of O?  I am  referring to after extrenous aerobic exercise during a  POIS episode, not just movement.

I believe (just my intuition, I have no clue) that POIS and CFS are rather different BUT...

I think you made a point in the above quote. As I am concerned I experience some relief with regards to joint/muscle pains when moving and doing sport (movement helps against inflammation I guess) BUT... if I push too hard when doing sport I have a hard time recovering. A very recent example : I played a tough two-hours tennis match two weeks ago and my body is still in the process of recovering. It could be caused by some seasonal virus but it's not the first time I experience this.

So I would say : movement is good against POIS inflammation but something in POIS prevents us from recovering from strong efforts.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on March 06, 2016, 08:59:56 PM

Just a periodic reminder to
please bookmark this site:
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?hl=en#!forum/poiscenter

If you ever experience any unforeseen technical difficulties here!

It is our alternate/emergency POISCenter site at Google Groups.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on October 12, 2020, 12:01:54 PM
A nanoelectronics-blood-based diagnostic biomarker for myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) (https://www.pnas.org/content/116/21/10250)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on October 21, 2020, 12:18:57 PM
Reductions in Cerebral Blood Flow Can Be Provoked by Sitting in Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Patients (https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/8/4/394)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on November 24, 2020, 10:13:20 AM
Involvement of Cervical Muscle Lesions and Autonomic Nervous System in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis / Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/involvement-of-cervical-muscle-lesions-and-autonomic-nervous-system-in-myalgic-encephalomyelitis-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-me-cfs.82128/)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on November 26, 2020, 04:02:10 PM
Dutch Symposium: INTERNATIONAL ME/CFS RESEARCH (Komaroff, Van Elzakker, Frankovich, Bergquist) (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/dutch-symposium-international-me-cfs-research-komaroff-van-elzakker-frankovich-bergquist.82151/)

ME/CFS at the Intersection of the Nervous & Immune Systems (Lecture) - Michael VanElzakker, PhD (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIUccEITT6E)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on November 29, 2020, 03:47:22 PM
The IDO Metabolic Trap Hypothesis for the Etiology of ME/CFS (https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4418/9/3/82/htm?fbclid=IwAR0oFqqxm-sMy2P09q1P8ejZJGL1QcCoUto6UPuPD62uZ6Jhyy2tZKtYsH0)

Reduced activity, reactivity and functionality of the sympathetic nervous system in fibromyalgia (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/reduced-activity-reactivity-and-functionality-of-the-sympathetic-nervous-system-in-fibromyalgia.82186/)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 02, 2020, 05:47:08 AM
Ampligen: Effect of disease duration in a randomized Phase III trial of rintatolimod, an immune modulator for ME/CFS (Strayer et al. 2020) (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/ampligen-effect-of-disease-duration-in-a-randomized-phase-iii-trial-of-rintatolimod-an-immune-modulator-for-me-cfs-strayer-et-al-2020.82221/)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 04, 2020, 04:42:36 PM
Small-Fiber Polyneuropathy May Underlie Dysautonomia in ME/CFS (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/small-fiber-polyneuropathy-may-underlie-dysautonomia-in-me-cfs.82250/)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 05, 2020, 05:30:28 AM
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg603495#msg603495

B_Daniel:

Hi, Demo!
---------------------------

Recently, I've begun to believe that my symptoms align more closely with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome "CFS", than with POIS.

When I was 20, simply abstaining from sexual activity for a few days would have me feeling like a new person.  But from about 24 and onwards, there has always been some degree of the flu-like symptoms that lingered.  I'm 36 now.  Sex still heightens my brain fog, lethargy, anxiety, etc.  But the symptoms never disappear.

The main symptom I have, if I were to narrow it down to just one, is my lack of energy.  Some days are better than others, but on the whole, I wear out quicker when taking on stress and need more rest periods throughout the day than the avg person.  If I push myself too hard (can be mental or physical stress), I'll crash and be a zombie the next day.

I think I initially latched on to POIS as an explanation bc of how clear the connection was.  1-3 hours after sex, I felt awful nearly every time.  But I'm now thinking that sex is just a very concentrated way of depleting my energy.  And all forms of that push me over the edge.

Those with CFS often have low testosterone, gastro issues, and sensitivities to certain foods like wheat dairy and soy.  Treatments that help include TRT/HRT, NSAIDs, LDN, B Vitamins, Magnesium and a few other supplements.  So it's similar to what many have said have helped for POIS.

What I like most about characterizing my illness as CFS is that it's easier to talk to others about (physicians, family members), and there is a larger body of research, more established treatments, and a larger community to lean on.  On the POIS side, we're kinda each inventing the wheel, trying everything under the sun.  In this forum, we've all seen the posts of "If I stand on my head for 30 minutes and then scratch my belly really hard, my POIS goes away".  In the CFS support groups, I haven't seen that.  There's more discussion of the various established treatments. After you've tried those 20 things, you can rest knowing you've tried the bulk of what's likely to help, and then focus on stress reduction and improving your health overall.
 
Anyway, just wanted to share this, as I view it as a major insight for me.  If I find anything that works for me on the CFS side I'll of course share it over here.

If this sounds like something you'd like to learn more about, here are a couple of helpful pages I've come across

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2018/12/10/the-basics-a-guide-to-learning-sharing-and-making-a-difference-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-me-cfs/

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2018/12/01/tips-newbies-fibromyalgia-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-me-cfs/
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 05, 2020, 05:33:38 AM
POIS thread on Phoenix Rising:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/postorgasmic-illness-syndrome-pois.81982/

You can find it under the differential diagnoses header.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 05, 2020, 06:08:32 AM
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=20239.msg236753#msg236753

Quote from: Girlwind
The POIS is very secondary to me now. The big issue is my long term CFS, which along with POIS, are just symptoms
of the hormones being in various states of deficiency. I'm so glad to be on the right track--finally. It only took 31
years.

LOL!
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 09, 2020, 07:40:28 AM
Quote from: J.G
It's worth noting that observations regarding POIS in / and / or MECFS go back (at least) some 25 years. Noted ME specialist Dr. Jay Goldstein in his 1996 Betrayal by the Brain (https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Betrayal_by_the_Brain):

"Several of my male patients have complained that they feel exhausted for several days after ejaculating. Although little is known about the central neurochemistry of orgasm, it appears that NE [norepinephrine] facilitates it, and that NE is depleted after ejaculation. If a male neurosomatic patient were deficient in NE prior to sexual activity, ejaculation could thereby worsen his symptoms" (Goldstein 1996: 63).

Norepinephrine is synthesised from dopamine. Goldstein postulates a "dopaminergic hypofunction" in MECFS.
Ref (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/postorgasmic-illness-syndrome-pois.81982/)

(https://me-pedia.org/images/f/fc/Betrayal_by_the_brain.jpg)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Journey on December 09, 2020, 12:22:57 PM
Quote from: J.G
It's worth noting that observations regarding POIS in / and / or MECFS go back (at least) some 25 years. Noted ME specialist Dr. Jay Goldstein in his 1996 Betrayal by the Brain (https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Betrayal_by_the_Brain):

"Several of my male patients have complained that they feel exhausted for several days after ejaculating. Although little is known about the central neurochemistry of orgasm, it appears that NE [norepinephrine] facilitates it, and that NE is depleted after ejaculation. If a male neurosomatic patient were deficient in NE prior to sexual activity, ejaculation could thereby worsen his symptoms" (Goldstein 1996: 63).

Norepinephrine is synthesised from dopamine. Goldstein postulates a "dopaminergic hypofunction" in MECFS.
Ref (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/postorgasmic-illness-syndrome-pois.81982/)

(https://me-pedia.org/images/f/fc/Betrayal_by_the_brain.jpg)
I wonder which are the earliest records out there clearly talking about someone reporting fatigue/brainfog/physical/etc. symptoms after orgasms is there any such data from let's say the 70s or 80s? The earliest POIS appearance I read about was from a Reddit user named /u/c-rockett88 who got it in the 70s and has relief from it by taking DAO, C vitamin, D vitamin and some other supplements and he believes it's excess Histamine causing POIS for him but I wonder if there are more POISers who got it around that time or even earlier unfortunately ones that might have had it earlier would be harder to find because they could be less likely to use the Internet or might not know POIS is a thing and so on etc.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 09, 2020, 12:29:40 PM
See contents: Book preview (https://books.google.nl/books?id=YWCOAQAAQBAJ&printsec=copyright&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: an-y-more on December 10, 2020, 09:48:22 AM
Quote from: J.G
It's worth noting that observations regarding POIS in / and / or MECFS go back (at least) some 25 years. Noted ME specialist Dr. Jay Goldstein in his 1996 Betrayal by the Brain (https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Betrayal_by_the_Brain):

"Several of my male patients have complained that they feel exhausted for several days after ejaculating. Although little is known about the central neurochemistry of orgasm, it appears that NE [norepinephrine] facilitates it, and that NE is depleted after ejaculation. If a male neurosomatic patient were deficient in NE prior to sexual activity, ejaculation could thereby worsen his symptoms" (Goldstein 1996: 63).

Norepinephrine is synthesised from dopamine. Goldstein postulates a "dopaminergic hypofunction" in MECFS.
Ref (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/postorgasmic-illness-syndrome-pois.81982/)

(https://me-pedia.org/images/f/fc/Betrayal_by_the_brain.jpg)
I wonder which are the earliest records out there clearly talking about someone reporting fatigue/brainfog/physical/etc. symptoms after orgasms is there any such data from let's say the 70s or 80s? The earliest POIS appearance I read about was from a Reddit user named /u/c-rockett88 who got it in the 70s and has relief from it by taking DAO, C vitamin, D vitamin and some other supplements and he believes it's excess Histamine causing POIS for him but I wonder if there are more POISers who got it around that time or even earlier unfortunately ones that might have had it earlier would be harder to find because they could be less likely to use the Internet or might not know POIS is a thing and so on etc.
I remember someone on this forum posted about symptoms appearing back in 80s. This person said it developed after antibiotic use. 
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 10, 2020, 11:06:25 AM
I remember someone on this forum posted about symptoms appearing back in 80s. This person said it developed after antibiotic use.

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3098.msg31156#msg31156
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 10, 2020, 06:51:08 PM
Video about Marian Lemle's Hydrogen Sulfide theory (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/video-about-marian-lemles-hydrogen-sulfide-theory.82322/)

I get the impression that POIS puts you into a state of semi-hibernation. I believe a few POISers here said the same thing.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 17, 2020, 01:04:38 PM
Association between Chronic Pain and Alterations in the Mesolimbic Dopaminergic System (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/association-between-chronic-pain-and-alterations-in-the-mesolimbic-dopaminergic-system.82376/)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Mr Raba on December 24, 2020, 12:20:20 AM
Hi,

I actually flew to LA to see Dr. Jay Golgstein circa 1990.  Such a nice guy. I had read his book. Maybe it was not fully published then.

He tried sequentially many of the meds in his list. I could not tell what did what because of the short time they were all administered while in his office. Eventually and due to the literature of the time I tried  oxytocin shots. That went badly.  DHEA went far worse. It gave me a bad case of OCD that took more than a decade to finally go away. It worked some first, but then I caught chicken pox while on it and what a horrible experience, also and when  I tried to go back on it. Like going insane. What I learned with the decades and trials is to very careful taking active hormones that put a forcing function on my tenuous hormonal equilibrium.


Goldstein told me that he knew of several men with just POIS symptoms that had sought his help. So my combo case (POIS and CFS which are labels describing symptoms) was nothing new to him. He did not have a cure for either but it was so nice to talk to great Dr. that got our suffering and dedicated his life to the neuroscience of these conditions. Of course CFS has come far ahead since then.

Although Goldstein knew the conditions were related somehow more than 25 years ago, I am just starting to see greater interest from some POISERs and CFSers on looking at what light one condition might share on the other.

His book is very interesting history. The new science on CFS that helps me as a combo sufferer on both fronts is light years ahead and is well
described and published in this site. 

https://www.healthrising.org/


   
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 24, 2020, 10:55:31 AM
This is mindblowing info Mr Raba. Do you know if he managed to fix at least one POISer? And if so what did he give this patient? Thanks for sharing this.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 24, 2020, 01:45:25 PM
One of his publications: Fibromyalgia syndrome: a pain modulation disorder related to altered limbic function? (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7134909/pdf/main.pdf)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on December 24, 2020, 05:24:59 PM
Sent Mr Raba’s post to POIS Research Team (Dr Prause is in L.A.)

Thanks, Muon, for your alert.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Hopeoneday on December 25, 2020, 08:35:49 AM
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_widespread_metabolite_abnormalities_in_Myalgic_encephalomyelitis/chronic_fatigue_syndrome:_assessment_with_whole-brain_magnetic_resonance_spectroscopy_(2019)_Mueller,_et_al

(https://me-pedia.org/images/c/cb/Younger_Therm_Results.JPG)
See lactate and choline results to.

(https://me-pedia.org/images/6/64/Younger_Choline_Results.JPG)

I think if you do therm result of brain in pois you will get the same results.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Hopeoneday on December 25, 2020, 08:45:06 AM
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Neuroinflammation

Posible mast cells open BBB then microglia activation....
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Hopeoneday on December 25, 2020, 08:46:15 AM
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Brains_of_People_With_Chronic_Fatigue_Syndrome_Offer_Clues_About_Disorder_-_New_York_Times:_Well_(2014)

(https://me-pedia.org/images/3/32/ME-CFS_Brain_Images.jpg)
White metter degradation.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Hopeoneday on December 25, 2020, 08:53:48 AM
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_features_of_chronic_fatigue_syndrome#Viruses_and_CFS:_Statements_by_Ron_Davis_and_Bob_Naviaux

Viruses is only consequences of imunity action in me cfs mcas pois if you ask me.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Hopeoneday on December 25, 2020, 09:01:07 AM
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Myalgic_encephalomyelitis#Other_diagnostic_criteria

The following are some syndromes and diseases that have been associated with or misdiagnosed as ME:

    fibromyalgia[87]
    chronic Lyme disease[88][89]
    idiopathic intracranial hypertension[86]
    postural orthostatic tachychardia syndrome[90][91]
    irritable bowel syndrome[87]
    thyroid disease[92]
    Ehlers-Danlos syndrome[92]
    Sjögren's syndrome[92]
    multiple chemical sensitivity[87]

Clinical findings
Alem Matthees is an Australian ME patient that filed an FOI request for data from the PACE trial. At a great cost to his health, Alem appealed the denial of the data and won. This data proved the results published in The Lancet were untrue. Alem's health suffered significantly in part from the efforts required for the FOI request and tribunal
Although there is no definitive biomarker, several signs and findings have been frequently observed in clinical settings:

Clinical findings fit in POIS
High antibody titers to specific infections (including EBV,[33]HHV-6,[34][35]and Coxsackie B[36][37] among others)
    hormone imbalance[38]
    immunological abnormalities[39][40][41]
    low natural killer cell function[42]
    low red blood cell magnesium[43]
    postural orthostatic tachychardia (POTS)[44][45]
    physical and mental exertion, sensory input cause relapse (PEM)[46][47]


Signs and symptoms fit in POIS and MCAS

Myalgic encephalomyelitis is a neurological disease that affects multiple bodily systems, causing a widespread combination of symptoms.[28] Symptoms can range from mild to very severe and can include:

    ataxia (coordination difficulties)
    cognitive dysfunction
    fatigability
    gastrointestinal symptoms
    headache
    low-grade fever, temperature instability
    muscle weakness and fatiguability
    myalgia (muscle pain)
    neck and back or spinal cord stiffness
    neuralgia (nerve pain)
    othostatic intolerance
    post-exertional malaise
    sensitivity to heat or cold
    sensitivity to light, sound and/or touch
    sleep dysfunction[28]
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Hopeoneday on December 25, 2020, 09:09:19 AM
All explained mepedia:
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Myalgic_encephalomyelitis
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Journey on December 25, 2020, 10:55:41 AM
All explained mepedia:
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Myalgic_encephalomyelitis
Interesting there seems to be alot of data showing that ME/CFS/POIS could have actual physical reasons for them how do you think what is the very root cause that started the rest of the dysfunction cascade in those disorders?
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Nas on December 25, 2020, 12:44:26 PM
Mr Rabaa

Based on Goldstein's diagram found here: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/dr-jay-goldsteins-rapid-remission-me-cfs-treatments.34516/page-6#post-582561

You feel worse by taking dopamine agonists like Oxytocin and DHCA. So according to the diagram you should feel better if you use ketamine agonists, dopamine antagonists and Benzodiazepine antagonists. And Goldstein would recommend adenosine drops as treatment for this condition.

Didn't he go for this plan with you?
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on December 25, 2020, 07:50:03 PM

Amazing! (I don’t live far away from Dr G. - - although he might’ve moved since the 90’s)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Hopeoneday on December 26, 2020, 01:21:07 PM
All explained mepedia:
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Myalgic_encephalomyelitis
Interesting there seems to be alot of data showing that ME/CFS/POIS could have actual physical reasons for them how do you think what is the very root cause that started the rest of the dysfunction cascade in those disorders?

My personl opinion is toxin-hiden infection-imune(MCAS)-mitohondria...

See here https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_features_of_chronic_fatigue_syndrome
So, you can see from here how mitohondria affect inate imune system.

Second, many people do not understand that the first response our body mounts against a viral, bacterial, or any kind of infection is metabolic. Yes, our chemistry is our first line of defense. Our chemistry reflects our instantaneous state of health. Innate immunity is coordinated by mitochondria and is an essential first step in developing adaptive immunity to any infectious agent. Without innate immunity there can be no antibodies and no NK cell activation, no mast cell activation, and no T cell mediated immunity.

And you can se here and i bolive this to that ours bodies "shot down"
to protect him self, mitochondra(when sense danger).

Naviaux believes the mitochondria are able to sense every kind of danger – from pathogens to pH changes to toxic elements from pesticides, heavy metals, etc. to inflammation. They sense trouble in the form of an infection when they detect a drop in voltage caused by the diversion of electrons (NADH / NADPH) to make viral components or respond to a broad variety of toxins.


Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 26, 2020, 01:32:38 PM
Second, many people do not understand that the first response our body mounts against a viral, bacterial, or any kind of infection is metabolic. Yes, our chemistry is our first line of defense. Our chemistry reflects our instantaneous state of health. Innate immunity is coordinated...

The first line of innate immune defense response are the defensins in your mucosa. There is actually one POISer with elevated fecal hBD2. I haven't seen more people who have done this test. https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3188.msg32995#msg32995

He also had low T and urinary tract infection I believe. White stuff in his urine-->defensins, hBD2?

Expression of Antimicrobial Defensins in the Male Reproductive Tract of Rats, Mice, and Humans (https://academic.oup.com/biolreprod/article/68/1/95/2683422?login=true)

Toll-Like Receptor 4 in Rat Prostate: Modulation by Testosterone and Acute Bacterial Infection in Epithelial and Stromal Cells (https://academic.oup.com/biolreprod/article/75/5/664/2629011?login=true)

Androgenic regulation of beta-defensins in the mouse epididymis (https://rbej.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1477-7827-12-76)

TRT ---> changing defensin profile? Level of hBD2 in urine or in seminal fluid?
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Investigator on December 26, 2020, 02:31:52 PM
In CFS, is there a phase with complete recovery, during which the patient feels perfectly healthy? If yes, then sure, I would vote that POIS is a type of CFS, with specific trigger.

Yesterday and the day before, I was feeling great and strong. So I pushed myself on physical exercise yesterday (cardio). Only to activate my POIS and to get the brain fog and usual fatigue today.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 26, 2020, 02:52:37 PM
In CFS, is there a phase with complete recovery, during which the patient feels perfectly healthy? If yes, then sure, I would vote that POIS is a type of CFS, with specific trigger.

Yesterday and the day before, I was feeling great and strong. So I pushed myself on physical exercise yesterday (cardio). Only to activate my POIS and to get the brain fog and usual fatigue today.

Outside of triggers? Not completely from what I have read. They often have a baseline of symptoms when avoiding PEM triggers. What you are describing regarding physical exercise is what they call post-exertional malaise (PEM), often activated 24h after a trigger. People contacted me on the CFS forum telling me that they think POIS is some sort of an extreme PEM trigger related to orgasm/ejaculation. POIS, CFS, FMS, MCAS, POTS could be some kind of overlap syndromes, maybe related to brain regions. In many POISers POIS symptoms peak ~24h post O as well. Dr. Goldstein could be right, in that, POIS and CFS are related to eachother somehow.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 28, 2020, 05:39:49 PM
From the phoenix rising forum today; Members only thread so can't post a link. I also will not post the username:

Thread title: Dr. Jacob Teitelbaum got me well in 6 months after 8 years of illness

I had been sick for 8 years and no one could get me well. However, I saw Dr. Jacob Teitelbaum who specializes in chronic fatigue and he gave me 36 things to take and got me well in 6 months. He is now getting my sister in law well after other doctors could not help her. I highly recommend seeing him. He has around a 93% success rate and specializes in those that other doctors can’t treat. I had an antibiotic resistant bacterial infection you pick up from hospitals among other things wrong with me and in 3 months, I was much better and in 6 months I was perfectly well. He is worth seeing if you have tried everything else and it has failed.

Similar to Goldstein's approach? Anyway I will follow up on this.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 29, 2020, 01:31:19 PM
From the CFS forum:

"Fecal microbiome transplant (FMT) looks to be a promising procedure that can help in a lot of cases for people colonised with antibiotic resistant bacteria. One small study suggests it can help with bloodstream infections too."
https://eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-04/ddw-fti042920.php

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2452231720300026
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6667716/
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2019.01704/full
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 31, 2020, 12:18:17 PM
mTor Inhibitor Rapamune Helps 5 ME/CFS Patients in Dallas (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/mtor-inhibitor-rapamune-helps-5-me-cfs-patients-in-dallas.50550/)

mTOR mutations?

"Adenosine blocks IL2. Book (https://books.google.nl/books?id=kYbMBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=adenosine+blocks+il2&source=bl&ots=1SCdmyAm4L&sig=dkRkfR4GZQjtQDKMYgmsKfuQXnk&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=adenosine%20blocks%20il2&f=false)

Caffeine acts by directly blocking Adenosine.

Caffeine raises IL2... ?
"

I wonder how adenosine and mTOR inhibtors (rapamycin) affect POISers. If low Tregs are involved in POIS you want to boost IL-2 though. It's nanna1's strategy as well, if I'm not mistaken, to boost IL-2.

Activation of mTOR makes mast cells more responsive btw (in a bad way).
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Hopeoneday on December 31, 2020, 03:24:16 PM
(https://medcraveonline.com/IJCAM/images/IJCAM-04-00119-g001.png)

Put compromised imunity(lack of inate etc...) in this cycles,
put toxic heawy metals, pesticides from foods, lack of detox fases,
liver etc..guts problems...
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 31, 2020, 08:56:52 PM
Input: my Immune profile from IMD Berlin (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/input-my-immune-profile-from-imd-berlin.81029/)

Results of the German Cell Trend laboratory for POTS (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/results-of-the-german-cell-trend-laboratory-for-pots.62366/)

There are some similarities in parameters that I share with Mitoman. Overlap syndromes = overlap of parameters? He went to the same lab btw.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on January 02, 2021, 03:13:56 PM
ME/CFS for 18 years, recently diagnosed with D-Lactic acidosis as cause of symptoms and illness. (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/me-cfs-for-18-years-recently-diagnosed-with-d-lactic-acidosis-as-cause-of-symptoms-and-illness.57613/)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on January 06, 2021, 04:34:49 PM
Metabolic profiling indicates impaired pyruvate dehydrogenase function in myalgic encephalopathy/CFS (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/metabolic-profiling-indicates-impaired-pyruvate-dehydrogenase-function-in-myalgic-encephalopathy-cfs.48446/)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on January 08, 2021, 10:34:13 AM
What Is Your Body Temperature? Rethinking 98.6 (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/what-is-your-body-temperature-rethinking-98-6.1454/)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on January 10, 2021, 01:16:51 PM
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/you-probably-have-an-autoimmune-disease.82395/page-5#post-2316670

Alpha-1 Adrenergic receptor (a1AR) autoantibody at #1. What about POISers? And what about autoantibodies against opioid receptors?
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on January 14, 2021, 05:29:02 PM
For the latest posts on the Phoenix Rising forum: New Posts (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/whats-new/posts/?skip=1)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on January 15, 2021, 11:34:20 PM
Small fiber (poly)neuropathy (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/small-fibre-neuropathy-weirdness.81888/#post-2316963)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Hopeoneday on January 31, 2021, 02:54:20 PM
Increased neutrophil apoptosis in chronic fatigue syndrome


Background/Aims: Many patients with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) have symptoms that are consistent with an underlying viral or TOXIC illness. Because increased neutrophil apoptosis occurs in patients with infection, this study examined whether this phenomenon also occurs in patients with CFS.

https://jcp.bmj.com/content/57/8/891.short
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on February 03, 2021, 04:19:17 PM
Exercise-->Unknown source (Mast cells can release this)--> ^Mitochondrial DNA-->Microglia--->^IL-1b

Exosome-associated Mitochondrial DNA is Elevated in Patients with ME/CFS and Stimulates Human Cultured Microglia to Secrete IL-1b (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/exosome-associated-mitochondrial-dna-is-elevated-in-patients-with-me-cfs-and-stimulates-human-cultured-microglia-to-secrete-il-1v.82835/)

Mitochondrial DNA has been found elevated in Autism.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on February 04, 2021, 10:39:17 AM
Discriminatory cytokine profiles predict muscle function, fatigue and cognitive function in patients with Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/CFS (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/discriminatory-cytokine-profiles-predict-muscle-function-fatigue-and-cognitive-function-in-patients-with-myalgic-encephalomyelitis-cfs.81197/)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on February 06, 2021, 11:52:52 AM
Although Goldstein knew the conditions were related somehow more than 25 years ago, I am just starting to see greater interest from some POISERs and CFSers on looking at what light one condition might share on the other.
Quote from: lovelife28
I saw that someone mentioned that this started when they got CFS and that is exactly what happend to me. When I was 25 I got MONO and that turned to CFS so they say anyway I was bedridden for two years, I'm now 29 and almost back to my old self but this POIS has been going on for two years. I never had the orgasm problems before getting ill so it must be linked.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=14697.msg344849#msg344849
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on February 06, 2021, 01:24:15 PM
Free blood gases analysis [Netherlands] (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/free-blood-gases-analysis-netherlands.50782/)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on February 07, 2021, 12:48:17 PM
Men: nocturnal emission (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/men-nocturnal-emission.82865/)

"But: it occurs in some severely ill ME patients when they are awake. Many told me they only have to think of a woman/man and instantly ejaculate. Some say it's related to stress: whenever they feel stressed they ejaculate."
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on February 07, 2021, 06:36:16 PM
https://scholar.google.nl/scholar?hl=nl&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=microbiome+cfs&btnG=
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Hopeoneday on February 08, 2021, 07:43:53 AM
Reductions in Cerebral Blood Flow Can Be Provoked by Sitting in Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Patients
https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/8/4/394

Conection to Pois- cfs-CMV trigered...
Recovery of neutrophil count by ganciclovir in patients with chronic idiopathic neutropenia associated with cytomegalovirus infection in bone marrow stromal cells
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15218961/
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Cursed on February 09, 2021, 07:44:48 PM
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/you-probably-have-an-autoimmune-disease.82395/page-5#post-2316670

Alpha-1 Adrenergic receptor (a1AR) autoantibody at #1. What about POISers? And what about autoantibodies against opioid receptors?
I think antibodies to adrenergic receptors is a very probable cause of POIS.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3300.0
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on February 09, 2021, 10:11:32 PM

I think antibodies to adrenergic receptors is a very probable cause of POIS.


Wow.

Very strong statement!
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on February 10, 2021, 09:40:28 AM
She (Learner1) got elevated IFN-g, IL-12, IL-18 and elevated antibodies @ celltrend against (via private conversation): Alpha-1 adrenergic receptor and Muscarinic cholinergic (M4) receptor. https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/discriminatory-cytokine-profiles-predict-muscle-function-fatigue-and-cognitive-function-in-patients-with-myalgic-encephalomyelitis-cfs.81197/#post-2294547
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on February 10, 2021, 10:37:25 AM
I tested for adrenal cortex antibody and was negative not sure if it's the same thing as you're speaking about.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Cursed on February 10, 2021, 10:54:13 AM

I think antibodies to adrenergic receptors is a very probable cause of POIS.


Wow.

Very strong statement!

I'm a layman, so take this with a huge grain of salt. I just think autoimmunity would explain why people find help with strategies that manipulate the gut (diet, probiotics, antibiotics, etc),  various supplementa, etc. Alternatively, there could be many other explanations, but autoimmunity, HPA axis dysfunction is where it is, IMO. This is pure speculation on my part.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Cursed on February 10, 2021, 10:56:52 AM
I tested for adrenal cortex antibody and was negative not sure if it's the same thing as you're speaking about.
It's not. It's completely different.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on February 10, 2021, 01:21:32 PM
Dr Theoharides suggested checking folate auto antibodies for me considering I react to all forms of folate and have a folate deficiency
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on February 10, 2021, 01:41:31 PM
Dr Theoharides suggested checking folate auto antibodies for me considering I react to all forms of folate and have a folate deficiency
What lab provides this test?
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on February 10, 2021, 01:58:29 PM
What lab provides this test?

http://iliadneuro.com/ he said it was the only lab in the world that does this test.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on February 11, 2021, 07:03:07 AM
Dr Theoharides suggested checking folate auto antibodies for me considering I react to all forms of folate and have a folate deficiency

From reddit :
"There is an increasing body of evidence that gut microbe Lactobacillus Reuteri is deficient in many people with ASD, and one of the products of this microbe is folate.

I've just started taking it myself and seems to be having a positive effect, but it may be worth a shot as it can be easily purchased over the counter."
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Journey on February 11, 2021, 10:46:20 AM

I think antibodies to adrenergic receptors is a very probable cause of POIS.


Wow.

Very strong statement!

I'm a layman, so take this with a huge grain of salt. I just think autoimmunity would explain why people find help with strategies that manipulate the gut (diet, probiotics, antibiotics, etc),  various supplementa, etc. Alternatively, there could be many other explanations, but autoimmunity, HPA axis dysfunction is where it is, IMO. This is pure speculation on my part.
My POIS disappeared during the duration of being sick with the cold in the 2020 February despite not abstaining during that time and the moment it healed and I trigerred the POIS it came back full with symptoms but when I did not have it I had even less brain fog and symptoms in general and felt better than I feel even on many weeks of abstinence in terms of cognitive clarity and such however due to the cold itself I did not feel that well physically however cognitively I had almost zero brain fog and this weird mental processing speed slowdown I seem to always have even when on a long streak of abstinence had fully disappeared while I was sick with that cold in the 2020 February
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on February 11, 2021, 10:51:04 AM
My POIS disappeared during the duration of being sick with the cold in the 2020 February despite not abstaining during that time and the moment it healed

Haha yes we all know this now you've said it many many times.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Cursed on February 11, 2021, 10:51:41 AM

I think antibodies to adrenergic receptors is a very probable cause of POIS.


Wow.

Very strong statement!

I'm a layman, so take this with a huge grain of salt. I just think autoimmunity would explain why people find help with strategies that manipulate the gut (diet, probiotics, antibiotics, etc),  various supplementa, etc. Alternatively, there could be many other explanations, but autoimmunity, HPA axis dysfunction is where it is, IMO. This is pure speculation on my part.
My POIS disappeared during the duration of being sick with the cold in the 2020 February despite not abstaining during that time and the moment it healed and I trigerred the POIS it came back full with symptoms but when I did not have it I had even less brain fog and symptoms in general and felt better than I feel even on many weeks of abstinence in terms of cognitive clarity and such however due to the cold itself I did not feel that well physically however cognitively I had almost zero brain fog and this weird mental processing speed slowdown I seem to always have even when on a long streak of abstinence had fully disappeared while I was sick with that cold in the 2020 February

One more argument for POIS being related to CFS, because this is not uncommon in CFS community to have symptoms improve or disappear when sick. I've also had this experience. Some say it's because immune system shifts the focus away from something that's causing symptoms (maybe pathogen or autoimmunity) and directs it where ir is most needed, fighting the virus.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Journey on February 11, 2021, 11:49:04 AM

I think antibodies to adrenergic receptors is a very probable cause of POIS.


Wow.

Very strong statement!

I'm a layman, so take this with a huge grain of salt. I just think autoimmunity would explain why people find help with strategies that manipulate the gut (diet, probiotics, antibiotics, etc),  various supplementa, etc. Alternatively, there could be many other explanations, but autoimmunity, HPA axis dysfunction is where it is, IMO. This is pure speculation on my part.
My POIS disappeared during the duration of being sick with the cold in the 2020 February despite not abstaining during that time and the moment it healed and I trigerred the POIS it came back full with symptoms but when I did not have it I had even less brain fog and symptoms in general and felt better than I feel even on many weeks of abstinence in terms of cognitive clarity and such however due to the cold itself I did not feel that well physically however cognitively I had almost zero brain fog and this weird mental processing speed slowdown I seem to always have even when on a long streak of abstinence had fully disappeared while I was sick with that cold in the 2020 February

One more argument for POIS being related to CFS, because this is not uncommon in CFS community to have symptoms improve or disappear when sick. I've also had this experience. Some say it's because immune system shifts the focus away from something that's causing symptoms (maybe pathogen or autoimmunity) and directs it where ir is most needed, fighting the virus.
I wonder what is the root cause of this immune engagement? John21 POIS disappeared for some months after taking antibiotics and then returned. That could mean perhaps there is some pathogen that is chronically in the organisms of those with those rare chronic multisymptoms disorders and they either are attacked directly and thus the inflammation formed affects other and nearby tissues as well or they mimick healthy tissue which then the immunity system interprets as the pathogen because of their similarities and therefore causes those symptoms. Therefore the question should be what is the root cause of those symptoms and what to do to permanently fix and cure it? If John21 had POIS disappear for some months after taking those antibiotics and probiotics and then it returned it could mean for some reason those potential possible pathogens tend to return therefore the question should be why they returned in John21 POIS case? And what to do to ensure the organism is permanently free from those underlying imbalances or pathogens that then cause those symptoms. It could besome other imbalance that makes it harder for the body to naturally fight against them or some foods or environmental factors might contain them and the POISers are more prone to having those pathogens accumulate or some genetical reasons could make it easier for those pathogens to accumulate
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on February 11, 2021, 09:27:36 PM

I'm a layman, so take this with a huge grain of salt...


Cursed, everyone is a POIS layman, MD’s included, because no one knows what POIS is all about.

Therefore, as a POISer, I hereby classify you as an expert! ;D
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on February 12, 2021, 08:39:18 AM
CCI SURVEY – for all ME/CFS patients tested for CCI and related conditions (please answer whether tested positive or negative) (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/cci-survey-for-all-me-cfs-patients-tested-for-cci-and-related-conditions-please-answer-whether-tested-positive-or-negative.77371/)

Check the survey results. Some numbers are really high.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Cursed on February 13, 2021, 04:23:46 PM

I think antibodies to adrenergic receptors is a very probable cause of POIS.


Wow.

Very strong statement!

I'm a layman, so take this with a huge grain of salt. I just think autoimmunity would explain why people find help with strategies that manipulate the gut (diet, probiotics, antibiotics, etc),  various supplementa, etc. Alternatively, there could be many other explanations, but autoimmunity, HPA axis dysfunction is where it is, IMO. This is pure speculation on my part.
My POIS disappeared during the duration of being sick with the cold in the 2020 February despite not abstaining during that time and the moment it healed and I trigerred the POIS it came back full with symptoms but when I did not have it I had even less brain fog and symptoms in general and felt better than I feel even on many weeks of abstinence in terms of cognitive clarity and such however due to the cold itself I did not feel that well physically however cognitively I had almost zero brain fog and this weird mental processing speed slowdown I seem to always have even when on a long streak of abstinence had fully disappeared while I was sick with that cold in the 2020 February

One more argument for POIS being related to CFS, because this is not uncommon in CFS community to have symptoms improve or disappear when sick. I've also had this experience. Some say it's because immune system shifts the focus away from something that's causing symptoms (maybe pathogen or autoimmunity) and directs it where ir is most needed, fighting the virus.
I wonder what is the root cause of this immune engagement? John21 POIS disappeared for some months after taking antibiotics and then returned. That could mean perhaps there is some pathogen that is chronically in the organisms of those with those rare chronic multisymptoms disorders and they either are attacked directly and thus the inflammation formed affects other and nearby tissues as well or they mimick healthy tissue which then the immunity system interprets as the pathogen because of their similarities and therefore causes those symptoms. Therefore the question should be what is the root cause of those symptoms and what to do to permanently fix and cure it? If John21 had POIS disappear for some months after taking those antibiotics and probiotics and then it returned it could mean for some reason those potential possible pathogens tend to return therefore the question should be why they returned in John21 POIS case? And what to do to ensure the organism is permanently free from those underlying imbalances or pathogens that then cause those symptoms. It could besome other imbalance that makes it harder for the body to naturally fight against them or some foods or environmental factors might contain them and the POISers are more prone to having those pathogens accumulate or some genetical reasons could make it easier for those pathogens to accumulate

Seems like my reply to this post disappeared? Well, anyway, I think this is something that you want to look at if you want to dig deeper:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30021103/

Re-framing the theory of autoimmunity in the era of the microbiome: persistent pathogens, autoantibodies, and molecular mimicry
Amy D Proal  1 , Trevor G Marshall  1

Abstract

The theory of autoimmunity was developed at a time when the human body was regarded as largely sterile. Antibodies in patients with chronic inflammatory disease could consequently not be tied to persistent human pathogens. The concept of the "autoantibody" was created to reconcile this phenomenon. Today, however, the discovery of the human microbiome has revolutionized our understanding of human biology. Humans are superorganisms that harbor trillions of persistent microbial cells. Indeed, vast human microbiomes have been detected in human tissue and blood. These microbial ecosystems harbor thousands of newly identified bacteria, viruses, and other microorganisms -- most of which can act as pathogens under conditions of immunosuppression. The theory of autoimmunity must be revised to account for the human microbiome. Here, we propose a model in which "autoantibodies" are created in response to chronic, persistent microbiome pathogens. The structural homology (molecular mimicry) between pathogen and host proteins can result in "collateral damage" to surrounding human tissue. This calls for a paradigm shift in autoimmune disease treatment. Immunosuppressive medications palliate inflammatory symptoms at the expense of microbiome health and balance. In contrast, treatments that support the immune system in autoimmune disease could allow patients to target pathogens at the root of the disease process.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on February 19, 2021, 05:04:14 PM
I have had CFS for 6 years and my wife just developed it too (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/i-have-had-cfs-for-6-years-and-my-wife-just-developed-it-too.81560/)

Also my gf has terrible POIS too, and by terrible I mean really for like 2-3 days if she orgasms twice in a day...

These symptoms started for my guy when he was 15 years old. But I don?t know when these really started for me. My guy was the one who found that I also have this thing. Before, we thought only he has this shit. (We called it ?Over?). Then we started to notice my symptoms too. We did search internet and I found you tube video about POIS and then I saw this forum link in the comments section.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on February 21, 2021, 07:44:41 AM
Organic Acid Test (OAT) results – do we ALL show the Warburg effect? (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/organic-acid-test-oat-results-do-we-all-show-the-warburg-effect.80662/)

Immune responses make use of glycolysis.  Pathogens can hijack host cell metabolism and may lead to the Warburg effect. Could some of these parameters be abnormal in POISers considering low BMI/energy that doesn't reflect their food intake?
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on February 22, 2021, 05:41:00 PM
Cell-Based Blood Biomarkers for ME/CFS (Missailidis et al., 2020) (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/cell-based-blood-biomarkers-for-me-cfs-missailidis-et-al-2020.83028/)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on February 24, 2021, 12:55:31 PM
Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: The Human Herpesviruses Are Back! (https://www.mdpi.com/2218-273X/11/2/185/htm)

Furthermore, it was demonstrated that EBV dUTPase is secreted in exosomes from chemically induced Raji cells at sufficient levels to induce NF-?B activation and cytokine secretion in hDCs and PBMCs through a TLR 2-dependent mechanism [72]. Exosomes are produced by numerous cell types, have been implicated in numerous diseases, including ME/CFS [84], and are capable of trafficking to various organs within the body, including the brain, where they function as intercellular messengers.

Virus changing exosome content?

Exosomes in human semen carry a distinctive repertoire of small non-coding RNAs with potential regulatory functions (https://academic.oup.com/nar/article/42/11/7290/1440924?login=true)

Extracellular vesicles in human semen modulate antigen-presenting cell function and decrease downstream antiviral T cell responses (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0223901)

(https://www.mdpi.com/biomolecules/biomolecules-11-00185/article_deploy/html/images/biomolecules-11-00185-g003.png)

A downregulated DBH can be problematic when you need a burst of norepi during orgasm via DBH.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Cursed on March 02, 2021, 06:03:35 PM
Crossposting my own message from another thread, because I think it's important:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=555.msg39561#msg39561
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on March 11, 2021, 01:25:37 PM
Neuroinflammation and Cytokines in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS): A Critical Review of Research Methods (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2018.01033/full)
Table 1: Brief review of brain magnetic resonance spectroscopy (MRS) studies in ME/CFS. Click on pic:
(https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/421061/fneur-09-01033-HTML-r2/image_m/fneur-09-01033-t001.jpg)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on March 22, 2021, 04:32:20 PM
Reduced Endothelial Function in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome–Results From Open-Label Cyclophosphamide Intervention Study (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/reduced-endothelial-function-in-me-cfs-results-open-label-cyclophosphamide-intervention-study.83317/)

Muon's prediction for the future: Reduced endothelial function in Post-Orgasmic Illness Syndrome.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on March 28, 2021, 04:33:20 PM
ME/CFS Research: Herpes Autoimmune Spectrum Disorder (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/me-cfs-research-herpes-autoimmune-spectrum-disorder.83371/)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on April 01, 2021, 03:42:30 PM
RIP Dr. Jay A. Goldstein (https://ammes.org/2021/04/01/rip-dr-jay-a-goldstein/)
(https://ammes.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/goldsteincrop.jpg)
"I was deeply saddened to learn that Dr. Jay Goldstein had passed away on March 4, 2021. Dr. Goldstein was a pioneer among ME/CFS researchers and clinicians. He rose to prominence in the 1990s through his clinical practice, and through the publication of several seminal works, chief among them: Betrayal by the Brain : The Neurologic Basis of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia Syndrome, and Related Neural Network Disorders, Tuning the Brain : Principles and Practice of Neurosomatic Medicine, and Chronic Fatigue Syndromes : The Limbic Hypothesis. In addition to his books, Dr. Goldstein was also one of the editors, along with Dr. Byron Hyde, of The Clinical and Scientific Basis of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis-Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, a collection of papers on clinical practice and research that remains unsurpassed in both depth and scope.

Dr. Goldstein believed that ME/CFS was the result of an insult to the limbic system, located deep within the brain. The limbic system is involved with memory, emotion, and regulation of the autonomic nervous system. This last function is of critical importance to maintaining homeostasis in the body, as the autonomic nervous system regulates appetite, body temperature, blood pressure, blood sugar, sleep, wakefulness, heart rate, digestion - in short, nearly every physiological function necessary for maintaining life.

Dr. Goldstein's theory, as laid out in his book, Betrayal by the Brain, was that ME/CFS is essentially a communication problem between the limbic system and the rest of the nervous system. His "limbic hypothesis" essentially states that no matter what the underlying cause of ME/CFS, the result is an injury to the limbic system, which subsequently causes widespread neuroimmune dysfunction. He identified ME/CFS as a "neurosomatic" illness, that is, a disorder of central nervous system processing. Dr. Goldstein based his theory on what he knew of the brain, which was substantial, as well as what he had observed of his patients' reactions to various psychotropic medications. Recent studies have shown that in his approach Dr. Goldstein was  far ahead of his time.

Dr. Goldstein will be sorely missed, not just for his tremendous insights but for his compassion and commitment to his patients. There will never be another like him. RIP Dr. Jay A. Goldstein.
"

Edit: Send me a private message when you are interested in his book Tuning the Brain.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on April 01, 2021, 04:06:52 PM
RIP if only there were more doctors out there like him...
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Mr Raba on May 12, 2021, 10:57:51 PM
Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: The Human Herpesviruses Are Back! (https://www.mdpi.com/2218-273X/11/2/185/htm)

Furthermore, it was demonstrated that EBV dUTPase is secreted in exosomes from chemically induced Raji cells at sufficient levels to induce NF-?B activation and cytokine secretion in hDCs and PBMCs through a TLR 2-dependent mechanism [72]. Exosomes are produced by numerous cell types, have been implicated in numerous diseases, including ME/CFS [84], and are capable of trafficking to various organs within the body, including the brain, where they function as intercellular messengers.

Virus changing exosome content?

Exosomes in human semen carry a distinctive repertoire of small non-coding RNAs with potential regulatory functions (https://academic.oup.com/nar/article/42/11/7290/1440924?login=true)

Extracellular vesicles in human semen modulate antigen-presenting cell function and decrease downstream antiviral T cell responses (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0223901)

(https://www.mdpi.com/biomolecules/biomolecules-11-00185/article_deploy/html/images/biomolecules-11-00185-g003.png)

A downregulated DBH can be problematic when you need a burst of norepi during orgasm via DBH.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on July 24, 2021, 01:22:26 PM
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/channelopathy-in-cfs.84906/
Title: Has anybody tried treating POIS with ME/CFS treatments?
Post by: Journey on September 01, 2021, 05:03:20 AM
I sometimes feel like POIS is some type of ME/CFS, the decreasing of creativity/more advanced cognitive functions, the lethargic heavy body fatigued type of state, the overall slowness and feeling of lack of energy, the triggering of symptoms from specific activities only - almost everything about POIS matches ME/CFS except for POISers the main trigger is orgasm and most others activities do not give such negative state as it does for those with ME/CFS e.g. like how exertion worsens it for them and also POIS attacks usually are not that bad and shorter but in rarer cases with too many orgasms in one week they can become very bad
Title: Re: Has anybody tried treating POIS with ME/CFS treatments?
Post by: Bob Morane on September 01, 2021, 08:21:36 AM
Oh yes - there are definitely many similarities I agree
Title: Re: Has anybody tried treating POIS with ME/CFS treatments?
Post by: Cursed on September 01, 2021, 11:05:12 AM
I think I have both and have tried a lot of things over the years, but it seems that despite the similarities, ME patients seem to have more post exertional malaise, and POIS sufferers have more cognitive and psychiatric symptoms. I believe these conditions have didferent causes and mechanisms. That's just my opinion though.

I don't know what exactly do you mean by ME specific treatmenta, but I have tried Mestinon, LDN, coq10 and more, and probably many more, but no real effect on POIS. Coq10 has a huge effect on energy, but I cannot tolerate it.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on September 08, 2021, 05:11:08 AM
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/postorgasmic-illness-syndrome-pois.81982/page-2#post-2364995

Quote
Checking in. I've been on Abilify (aripiprazole) 0.2mg for ~6 weeks. I'm happy to report that it reduces the severity and intensity of my ME symptoms across the board, including very noticeably those of POIS. It's the first drug to ever work for my ME.

As I wrote earlier in this thread, the POIS became more prominent over the years as I declined from moderate to severe (98% bedbound). The inverse now also appears true: an improvement to ME symptoms eases the POIS.

Some form of neurotransmitter imbalance appears to tie the two together, in my case of secondary POIS, at least.

Low dose. Likely a neurotransmitter involved which is linked to high affinity receptors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aripiprazole#Pharmacodynamics
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Cursed on September 08, 2021, 07:52:07 AM
Very interesting Muon! I was wondering for a while if anyone tried it for POIS.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Mr Raba on December 11, 2021, 02:02:37 AM
And now this amazing article that explains why amino acids, vasodilators, immune mediators help both POIS and CFS.   It is an irrigation issue!


https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2021/12/08/energy-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-immunometabolic-disease/
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on January 07, 2022, 07:34:46 PM
 Brainstem Abnormalities in ME/CFS: A Scoping Review and Evaluation of Magnetic Resonance Imaging Findings (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/brainstem-abnormalities-in-me-cfs-a-scoping-review-and-evaluation-of-magnetic-resonance-imaging-findings-nelson-et-al-2021.86604/)

(https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/769511/fneur-12-769511-HTML-r1/image_m/fneur-12-769511-g003.jpg)

Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on January 12, 2022, 01:34:37 PM
POIS/CFS/POTS could be brainstem pathologies as in overlap of affected areas within the brainstem.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Journey on January 12, 2022, 04:26:04 PM
My symptoms are quite similar to it
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on January 16, 2022, 01:08:53 PM
Brainstem Abnormalities in ME/CFS: A Scoping Review and Evaluation of Magnetic Resonance Imaging Findings (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/brainstem-abnormalities-in-me-cfs-a-scoping-review-and-evaluation-of-magnetic-resonance-imaging-findings-nelson-et-al-2021.86604/)

(https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/769511/fneur-12-769511-HTML-r1/image_m/fneur-12-769511-g003.jpg)
POIS/CFS/POTS could be brainstem pathologies as in overlap of affected areas within the brainstem.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23766#msg23766
(https://i.imgur.com/z2XLiYy.gif)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on January 17, 2022, 10:09:06 AM
And now this amazing article that explains why amino acids, vasodilators, immune mediators help both POIS and CFS. It is an irrigation issue!

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2021/12/08/energy-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-immunometabolic-disease/

Stellate Ganglion Block: Blood flow.
https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2021/12/28/stellate-ganglion-long-covid-fibromyalgia

Discussion thread:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=4098.0
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Progecitor on September 06, 2022, 02:15:20 PM
I still believe that cellular senescence is the most logically sound explanation to our ails. This also explains the similarity in the pharmacological approach in the treatment of both CFS and POIS and several other diseases as well (e.g. asthma, multiple sclerosis, postcovid, etc). The most notable difference is in the affected tissues that makes it seem like they are completely different illnesses when in truth they stem from the same problem. In the case of POIS these cells are evidently located in the tissues and organs involved in reproduction. In my particular case I believe the origin is the prostate and with the senescence induced inflammation it can be simply described as prostatitis. For me prostatitis is a chronic phenomenon as I had POIS-like symptoms even after half a year without any sexual activity, so this phase may be more aptly considered as CFS. As said before following stimulation or stress senescent cells become activated, thus releasing even more cytokines than usual for a few days and this leads to the emergence of more severe POIS symptoms compared to the CFS phase when symptoms are rather subdued. As these cells normally have a role in sexual activity they are most potently stimulated by related activities and especially ejaculation. Other sources of stimulation like dietary elements are only secondary, however due to their additive and/or synergistic effect they can induce extreme POIS in case of acute onset and can be major determinants of symptom severity in the chronic phase of the disease.

Senescence also affects us on a psychological level which is almost funny when one considers how much our behavior resembles these cells. As senescent cells function incompletely they can't behave as normal cells do, so when they are put under pressure and expected to do things that a normal, healthy cell would be able to do easily, they can only respond by a kind of back-lash aggression. This is so much like the irritability that many of us describe. Senescence is also a normal process in aging, however it happens prematurely in our case. Still this makes us resemble a fatigued old man who lacks the capacity to do excessive physical work or at least act poorly when forced anyway. Somewhere it is even mentioned that senescent cells are kind of like zombie cells and in truth we ourselves our just like that after acute disease onset. So what I mean is that senescence is not only a cellular event, but is also reflected in our whole personality given adequate scrutiny. If only psychologists were more educated they should be able to easily diagnose people with senescence just by evaluating their behavioral patterns and with appropriate medications many of these diseases could be properly treated and static lives turned into lively ones.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Progecitor on September 23, 2022, 01:37:14 PM
I find it really intriguing that so many aphrodisiacs are effective in my case. Mastic gum is no exception as it is a traditionally known aphrodisiac. It is however not clear if all of these supplements'  aphrodisiac properties are only due to an increase in testosterone. I can only guess there is a convergence between aphrodisiacs and the mechanisms of anti-inflammatory pathways. Of course I have no clear proof of this, but one still has to wonder about the coincidence.

A most likely explanation to this probable connection lies in the overexpression of the NRF2 pathway. Although in the past I thought that NRF2 may not play a significant role in my problems recently I had to realize that it must be one of the factors at its core. This is nothing new of course as NRF2 has a central role in the anti-oxidant response mechanism, however I feel its function lacks proper emphasis and discussion.

A guy who cured himself from CFS made a great article about NRF2.
https://mybiohack.com/blog/nrf2-cirs-sensitivities

A lot of the things he highlights about NRF2 reminds me of things what POISers were talking about on the site. Although he wanted to point out some of the drawbacks regarding NRF2 activation, most of the article describes its beneficial effects. He lists loads of NRF2 agonist supplements, most of which helped me, though with varying efficacy. Most importantly NRF2 activation can decrease pro-inflammatory cytokines, which must be an important aspect of its effects. It is also indicated that NRF2 activation can play a role in libido enhancement and sexual organ protection, however it is less clear if this can be generalized.

Although not in the list, but Giloy/Guduchi also potently activates NRF2 and acts as an aphrodisiac.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354468485_Tinospora_cordifolia_Willd_Miers_Protection_mechanisms_and_strategies_against_oxidative_stress-related_diseases

Mastic oil and its constituents all induce NRF2.
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3921/10/1/127/htm

There is abundant evidence that saffron also activates the NRF2 pathway.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Arian-Khoshandam/publication/361822359_Interaction_of_saffron_and_its_constituents_with_Nrf2_signaling_pathway_A_review/links/62ebcdb80b37cc34476dd64b/Interaction-of-saffron-and-its-constituents-with-Nrf2-signaling-pathway-A-review.pdf

It may also explain why exercise intolerance develops as (premature-) aging turns NRF2 signaling defective which impairs proper responses to exercise.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2017.00268/full

It was a bit surprising to see Lansoprazole as an activator as it also helped me in the past. Well there are a number of other interesting inducers, but too many to list them here, so check at the link.
Some controversies do exist though. For one apigenin, quercetin and luteolin may work dose-dependently, so their effects are less predictable. Another one is that fenugreek was indicated as an inhibitor, but it is also a source of dioscin and diosgenin both of which clearly increase NRF2 expression. Needless to say this also makes maca an NRF2 inducer.
https://saudijournals.com/media/articles/SJBR_410_318-323.pdf

It also seems contradictory that testosterone is indicated to reduce NRF2 while a number of supplements that increase NRF2 are actually testosterone boosters like damiana, mangosteen, maca, tribulus, zinc, beta-ecdysterone, tongkat ali and probably more.

He also proposes a regime based on hormesis which means an intermittent intake of a combination of NRF2 inducers that may act in synergy for an increased benefit, however the episodic intake may help to avoid the potential pitfalls of prolonged NRF2 overexpression.

Another good deal of NRF2 inducers can be found at Table 1. in the following article. It is quite a good thing that it also details many trace elements, vitamins and amino acids.
https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/21/12/4484/htm

Well this latter review provides much more information than just about NRF2. It puts our whole problem in a context as I believe that premature aging (senescence) of sexual organs is the most likely cause of POIS.

It is common knowledge that covid-19 causes pro-inflammatory cytokine storm and it was discussed earlier that NRF2 agonist agents may serve to ameliorate this state.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3733.msg40429#msg40429

NRF2 signaling can be also connected to the earlier model of metabolic syndrome.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-08899-7

Some additional information that could serve to complement this:
1. Prolonged endurance exercise can significantly reduce Serca2a expression if NRF2 is deficient.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2017.00268/full
2. Combined PPARA and NRF2 upregulation causes the downregulation of SREBP-1c and NF-kB.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/mnfr.201700479
3.  PGC-1alpha potentiates the function of NRF1 and NRF2.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413111002117
4. NRF2 activation inhibits TGFbeta signaling.
https://openheart.bmj.com/content/8/1/e001663.full
5. AP-1 subunit c-Jun can activate NRF2-induced transcription, while c-Fos can suppress it.
PPARG and estrogen receptor alpha can directly bind to NRF2 and suppress its activity.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7369905/
6. Estrogen can cause oxidative stress. SULT1E1 inactivates 17beta-estradiol. Oxidative stress induces SULT1E1 through Nrf2 activation. Estrogen also activates Nrf2 as control.
https://cancerci.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12935-019-0826-x
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Progecitor on November 08, 2022, 01:56:17 AM
Severe anxiety may be treated with a combination of N-acetyl-glucosamine (NAG), flaxseed oil and turmeric. There are some additional possible anxiolytics recommendations by a CFS sufferer.
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/completely-eliminated-my-severe-anxiety-symptoms-with-three-supplements.18369/
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Progecitor on November 15, 2022, 04:08:56 PM
A new study suggests that the mere impairment of spermatogenesis, a process also involving meiosis, may itself lead to a significant deterioration of the individual’s overall health. Hopefully researchers will realize that POIS is most likely a human role model for this exact phenomenon.

New Study Reveals How the Reproductive System Can Accelerate Aging and Worsen Health
The new study, led by researchers from the University of Pittsburgh and UPMC and published in the journal Aging Cell, found that disrupting a process called meiosis in C. elegans reproductive cells caused a decline in the worms' health and triggered an accelerated aging gene signature similar to that of aging humans.
"This study is exciting because it’s the first direct evidence that manipulating the health of reproductive cells leads to premature aging and a decline in healthspan," "The implications of this finding are profound: It suggests that the status of the reproductive system is important not simply to produce children, but also for overall health."
While the consequences of aging on fertility are well known, research in the past two decades has started to show that reproductive fitness also has an impact on human aging and health.
They discovered that animals with mutations in meiosis genes had shorter lives than their non-mutated counterparts. The mutants also had worse overall health ratings, including premature reductions in mobility, muscular function, and memory.
"The exciting part of this healthspan work was that these animals also showed signs of disrupted protein homeostasis," said Ghazi. "Disruption to the balance of proteins inside cells is at the heart of age-related neurodegenerative diseases, like Alzheimer's disease."
When the researchers improved protein homeostasis in the worms, some loss of lifespan was prevented. These findings point to disrupted proteostasis as a key mechanism linking reproductive health and aging.
"In human terms, it's like someone in their early 20s having the physical appearance, physiology, and gene signatures of a 70-year-old," explained Ghazi.
"Messing with meiosis has dramatic effects on healthspan and accelerates aging in C. elegans."

https://scitechdaily.com/new-study-reveals-how-the-reproductive-system-can-accelerate-aging-and-worsen-health/
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on January 14, 2023, 12:57:57 PM
Treatment survey for ME/CFS.
https://twitter.com/organichemusic/status/1614127798087565312
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: b_jim on January 14, 2023, 01:41:24 PM
Amazing Muon :)
You're still doing a fantastic job after so many years :)
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on March 29, 2023, 06:51:28 PM
Amazing Muon :)
You're still doing a fantastic job after so many years :)
It actually makes me sad when I think about how much time I have spent on this forum. :(

Here is a tweet from Michael VanElzakker:
https://twitter.com/MBVanElzakker/status/896841175973457922
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on October 26, 2023, 08:38:59 AM
Quote from: J.G
It's worth noting that observations regarding POIS in / and / or MECFS go back (at least) some 25 years. Noted ME specialist Dr. Jay Goldstein in his 1996 Betrayal by the Brain (https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Betrayal_by_the_Brain):

"Several of my male patients have complained that they feel exhausted for several days after ejaculating. Although little is known about the central neurochemistry of orgasm, it appears that NE [norepinephrine] facilitates it, and that NE is depleted after ejaculation. If a male neurosomatic patient were deficient in NE prior to sexual activity, ejaculation could thereby worsen his symptoms" (Goldstein 1996: 63).

Norepinephrine is synthesised from dopamine. Goldstein postulates a "dopaminergic hypofunction" in MECFS.
Ref (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/postorgasmic-illness-syndrome-pois.81982/)

(https://me-pedia.org/images/f/fc/Betrayal_by_the_brain.jpg)

Book download links: https://annas-archive.org/search?q=betrayal+by+the+brain

It's on page 63.

Treatment protocol for neurosomatic patients can be found on page 16.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: hurray on October 26, 2023, 06:57:33 PM
Quote from: J.G
It's worth noting that observations regarding POIS in / and / or MECFS go back (at least) some 25 years. Noted ME specialist Dr. Jay Goldstein in his 1996 Betrayal by the Brain (https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Betrayal_by_the_Brain):

"Several of my male patients have complained that they feel exhausted for several days after ejaculating. Although little is known about the central neurochemistry of orgasm, it appears that NE [norepinephrine] facilitates it, and that NE is depleted after ejaculation. If a male neurosomatic patient were deficient in NE prior to sexual activity, ejaculation could thereby worsen his symptoms" (Goldstein 1996: 63).

Norepinephrine is synthesised from dopamine. Goldstein postulates a "dopaminergic hypofunction" in MECFS.
Ref (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/postorgasmic-illness-syndrome-pois.81982/)

(https://me-pedia.org/images/f/fc/Betrayal_by_the_brain.jpg)

Book download links: https://annas-archive.org/search?q=betrayal+by+the+brain

It's on page 63.

Treatment protocol for neurosomatic patients can be found on page 16.

Well, that would help to explain why a NE (norepinephrine) reuptake inhibitor (milnacipran) prevents my POIS symptoms post-O.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on December 25, 2023, 09:54:51 AM
I actually flew to LA to see Dr. Jay Golgstein circa 1990.  Such a nice guy. I had read his book. Maybe it was not fully published then.

He has written more books, you have probably read some of his early work:
1993, Chronic Fatigue Syndromes : The Limbic Hypothesis
1992, The Clinical and Scientific Basis of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (https://me-pedia.org/wiki/The_Clinical_and_Scientific_Basis_of_Myalgic_Encephalomyelitis/Chronic_Fatigue_Syndrome) (free ebook at the bottom of the webpage)
1991, Could your doctor be wrong?
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on January 26, 2024, 12:52:41 PM
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/postorgasmic-illness-syndrome-pois.81982/page-3#post-2452269
A new post in the POIS thread (thread is invisible to non-members) on Phoenix Rising forum from dysfunkion:

"I have POIS and have had it for years. It feels like I use up all of my neurotransmitters and can't find a balance again for a while and I also get flu like symptoms too. Very lethargic and out of it, as if my brain isn't getting enough juice. I can't think, be social well, or enjoy anything. Depending on how much I orgasmed and other unknown factors it can hang around for 1-3 days usually."
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: less_fogged on April 03, 2024, 03:36:46 AM
I've regularly been following poiscenter since it's very beginnings and was also on the previous NSF forum. Been living with POIS for over 36 years now. Like most of you it's had a pretty big impact on the quality of my life. I remind you all again, I've experienced all known symptoms of POIS, sometimes changing in severity in different stages of my life. My approach over the years with trial and error was making me either better or worse. I've had endless examinations and tests done on me and they never found something significant. The fact that a diagnosis for POIS still not exists always felt like a dead end. But now I've been diagnosed with NE/CFS. I'm stunned as I've always considered myself a pretty fit person! Just feel like huffing and puffing while in POIS!

I was diagnosed after a CT scan for the brain together with Neurospect.

I suppose I must have POIS and NE/CFS overlapping each other, or is it a version of NE/CFS!?

I'm sure there must be more POIS members that are in the unknown about this. I really did not know what to expect for the outcome of results after the test. I did not expect anything as I was pretty used to the idea of not finding anything significant! I don't think it would influence my test results but just in case; I had 3 ejaculations in the 2 days before the scan test. Apparently there is no blood circulation in the front of my frontal lobe!
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on April 03, 2024, 04:29:03 AM
as if my brain isn't getting enough juice.
Apparently there is no blood circulation in the front of my frontal lobe!

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2024/03/24/voracious-brains-inflammation-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-conference/
Quote
why were the brain cells of the ME/CFS-like long-COVID patients eating up so much oxygen? (Oxygen is the substance that generates ATP (energy) for the brain). A reduction in blood flows to the brain could do it.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on April 04, 2024, 03:57:28 PM

I've regularly been following poiscenter since it's very beginnings and was also on the previous NSF forum…


less_fogged, thank you for being with us all the way back - - from the beginning NSF years!

POISCenter’s predecessor NSF days began in….2007!

Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: less_fogged on April 05, 2024, 02:29:54 PM

I've regularly been following poiscenter since it's very beginnings and was also on the previous NSF forum…


less_fogged, thank you for being with us all the way back - - from the beginning NSF years!

POISCenter’s predecessor NSF days began in….2007!

Registered on the forum about 9 years ago but was following since the year before that. Now I also want to better understand ME/CFS but will keep following poiscenter. As like all of us, always hoping for a real breakthrough for POIS. We deserve it. Thanks to all members and founders following this site, more scientists have taken POIS more seriously.

One tip I want to give especially to the younger people with POIS is don't let this illness dominate your life but keep fighting it. All participating on this forum makes us stronger.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Progecitor on April 08, 2024, 01:11:16 PM
I've regularly been following poiscenter since it's very beginnings and was also on the previous NSF forum. Been living with POIS for over 36 years now. Like most of you it's had a pretty big impact on the quality of my life. I remind you all again, I've experienced all known symptoms of POIS, sometimes changing in severity in different stages of my life. My approach over the years with trial and error was making me either better or worse. I've had endless examinations and tests done on me and they never found something significant. The fact that a diagnosis for POIS still not exists always felt like a dead end. But now I've been diagnosed with ME/CFS. I'm stunned as I've always considered myself a pretty fit person! Just feel like huffing and puffing while in POIS!

I was diagnosed after a CT scan for the brain together with Neurospect.

I suppose I must have POIS and ME/CFS overlapping each other, or is it a version of ME/CFS!?

I'm sure there must be more POIS members that are in the unknown about this. I really did not know what to expect for the outcome of results after the test. I did not expect anything as I was pretty used to the idea of not finding anything significant! I don't think it would influence my test results but just in case; I had 3 ejaculations in the 2 days before the scan test. Apparently there is no blood circulation in the front of my frontal lobe!

I think a very recent research could provide an explanation for this phenomenon.

"Hypoxic pockets" could point to Alzheimer's risk
The brain cannot survive long without oxygen, a concept demonstrated by the neurological damage that quickly follows a stroke or heart attack. But what happens when very small parts of the brain are denied oxygen for brief periods? This question was not even being asked by researchers until the team in the Nedergaard lab began to look closely at the new recordings. While monitoring the mice, the researchers observed that specific tiny areas of the brain would go dark, sometimes for minutes, meaning that the oxygen supply was being cut off.
Oxygen is circulated throughout the brain via a vast network of arteries and smaller capillaries-or microvessels-which permeate brain tissue. Through a series of experiments, the researchers were able to determine that oxygen was being denied due to capillary stalling, which occurs when white blood cells temporarily block microvessels and prevent the passage of oxygen carrying red blood cells. These areas, which the researchers named "hypoxic pockets," were more prevalent in the brains of mice during a resting state, compared to when the animals were active. Capillary stalling is believed to increase with age and has been observed in models of Alzheimer's disease.
"The door is now open to study a range of diseases associated with hypoxia in the brain, including Alzheimer's, vascular dementia, and long COVID, and how a sedentary lifestyle, aging, hypertension, and other factors contribute to these diseases," said Nedergaard. "It also provides a tool to test different drugs and types of exercise that improve vascular health and slow down the road to dementia."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/03/240328162557.htm

By the way have you ever tried ginkgo biloba? It is specifically known to help with brain circulation.
I can also share an interesting and very scary experience in this relation, which happened when I was testing black poplar tincture a few months ago. It turned out that black poplar tincture can help alleviate depression at least temporarily, but when I increased the dosage above recommendation I experienced a very scary throbbing blood rush in my head, which usually happened a few hours after intake. I often took burdock tincture in parallel, but I believe this effect was mostly due to black poplar. Pinocembrin might be suspected in this regard, however I had no such problems with damiana, which also helps. It is true though that I have not tried excessive dosages of that one. Nevertheless if you decide to try black poplar, please be very-very-very careful. Ginkgo biloba was also said to have possible adverse effects, so be cautious of that one as well.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: less_fogged on April 17, 2024, 08:49:29 AM
By the way have you ever tried ginkgo biloba?

I've tried ginkgo biloba many years ago. As far as I remember I was struggling with finding the correct dosage to take, so sometimes I was feeling worse off.
At the moment I'm trying a medical recipe that my doc wants me to test which includes Meldonium. He spoke to me about it before when he was suspecting I might also have CFS.  Will see how it goes.

I still feel like I have a version of CFS with POIS, fatigue with the mental symptoms and sometimes the muscle symptoms. In my case difficult muscle issues often depend on temperature changes. So muscle issues not necessarily always present except stiffness especially when awakening.

I'm sure it's possible more people are unaware of living with CFS combined with POIS. These people are not necessarily tired all the time. Fatigue issues seem to come for many with this group especially when doing too much physical activity (also mental strain) and then the symptoms arise 24 or even 36 hours later. IF you ejaculate after physical activity then you have the two overlapping. So both illnesses seem to have that peek with symptoms severity in day 2. CFS people are also considered having immune issues. In my case I believe it's a miss communication between brain and body, ultimately leading to stress in the body. And probably the reason why many young POISers confess ejaculating too frequently when younger and then laying the link over the years. The symptoms end up being very similar or even the same in the end!
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: less_fogged on May 12, 2024, 07:34:44 AM
May 12th was chosen as ME/CFS Awareness Day!

I'm would not be surprised that some POISers don't realize they actually have a degree of ME/CFS or that ME/CFS is actually there problem.

It's estimated that only 25% of ME/CFS victims are bedbound.

From a research article: people with ME/CFS had higher resting heart rates, markers of a drawn-out and overstimulated immune response that exhausts T cells, and less diverse gut bacteria than controls.

The ME/CFS group showed no signs of muscle fatigue, and performed normally on cognitive tests, despite reporting greater cognitive symptoms.

And yet the immune and gut microbiome changes clearly impacted the central nervous system in several ways. People with ME/CFS had lower levels of chemicals called catechols, which help regulate the nervous system, in their cerebrospinal fluid and less activity in a brain region called the temporal-parietal junction (TPJ) during motor tasks.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on May 14, 2024, 06:12:44 PM
Brainstem perfusion is impaired in chronic fatigue syndrome
https://academic.oup.com/qjmed/article-abstract/88/11/767/1569403
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Crying24/7 on May 15, 2024, 02:43:49 AM
it's latent Hsv virus bro, I'm positive for hsv1 and ghsv2 ,
even Aciclovir helps in daily brainfog that I get from morning erection, Also monolaurin helps immensely
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Hopeoneday on May 15, 2024, 04:44:53 AM
I learned that herpes virus theory is wrong!
That is only a conequence of imunity compromised.
Why is our imunity compromised?...
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Crying24/7 on May 17, 2024, 04:30:41 AM
if we have immune compromised than pois symptoms may lasts too long but we had only 3-4,7 days issues,
I think sexual hormones leads hidden virus to reactivation, as i have positive PCR for Hsv 1 and 2, btw I'd done sexual activity with someone who'd given it to me, Aciclovir everytime release headache and neck stiffness if I take 200mg 3 times a day
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Hopeoneday on May 17, 2024, 08:38:57 AM
A bilions of people hawe hsv1, hsv2 etc...
Problems ocure only if you are imunocompromised.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: less_fogged on May 25, 2024, 08:46:32 PM
Brainstem perfusion is impaired in chronic fatigue syndrome
https://academic.oup.com/qjmed/article-abstract/88/11/767/1569403

Thanks for highlighting this article!
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Muon on November 01, 2024, 05:09:56 PM
Polling CFS patients. This does not tell you anything about the type of symptoms.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cfs/comments/1ggmu29/do_you_have_triggers_related_to_sexual_activity/
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: sartre02 on December 07, 2024, 05:01:01 PM
it's latent Hsv virus bro, I'm positive for hsv1 and ghsv2 ,
even Aciclovir helps in daily brainfog that I get from morning erection, Also monolaurin helps immensely

do you combine it with celecoxib??
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Progecitor on January 04, 2025, 05:51:36 PM
Some ME/CFS members also experience PEM loops due to sexual activity that is similar to the POIS loops we have.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cfs/comments/1ht8o1s/masturbation_causing_pem_how_to_decrease_libido/
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Sisyphus on February 23, 2025, 06:40:00 AM
@Progecitor

I find it difficult to follow your posts. Sorry about that!

Your latest post here consists of lots of quotes of scientific text using specialised medical terms that I think very few people would understand unless they have a very specialised medical background. Perhaps you yourself have a specialised medical background?

Your post seems to have a theme of the condition hypoxia. That's one term that I could guess the meaning of   :)
I have a feeling that you might be making an interesting point but it's hidden amongst all the medical jargon. Are you able to summarise how you think pois might be connected with hypoxia in one short sentence of let's say about 20 words, readable to those of us on the forum who do not have a science/medical background?
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on February 23, 2025, 06:57:29 AM

@Progecitor

I find it difficult to follow your posts. Sorry about that!

Your latest post here consists of lots of quotes of scientific text using specialised medical terms that I think very few people would understand unless they have a very specialised medical background. Perhaps you yourself have a specialised medical background?

Your post seems to have a theme of the condition hypoxia. That's one term that I could guess the meaning of   :)
I have a feeling that you might be making an interesting point but it's hidden amongst all the medical jargon. Are you able to summarise how you think pois might be connected with hypoxia in one short sentence of let's say about 20 words, readable to those of us on the forum who do not have a science/medical background?


Thank you, Sisyphus.

Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Progecitor on February 23, 2025, 07:55:56 AM
@Progecitor

I find it difficult to follow your posts. Sorry about that!

Your latest post here consists of lots of quotes of scientific text using specialised medical terms that I think very few people would understand unless they have a very specialised medical background. Perhaps you yourself have a specialised medical background?

Your post seems to have a theme of the condition hypoxia. That's one term that I could guess the meaning of   :)
I have a feeling that you might be making an interesting point but it's hidden amongst all the medical jargon. Are you able to summarise how you think pois might be connected with hypoxia in one short sentence of let's say about 20 words, readable to those of us on the forum who do not have a science/medical background?

If I could tell you in one sentence I would have done so, but you have to see the whole process to understand how it all comes together. I am not exactly sure how much hypoxia is involved, but ROS is a certain culprit and there is clearly a glycolytic shift in our metabolism partly due to mitochondrial dysfunction. Mitochondrial dysfunction itself may come about due to a variety of reasons (e.g. sepsis, senescence, autoimmunity, etc). If we consider the treatments that we, ME/CFS and long covid patients have used with some degree of success, then it is easy to see that HIF-1a regulation is majorly involved in disease control. It is especially interesting to see that post-exertional malaise (PEM) in long covid patients last for about a week, similarly to a POIS episode, when there is a back shift towards oxidative phosphorylation. However the tricarboxylic acid (TCA) cycle remains impaired with somewhat elevated glycolytic metabolites even at baseline. This is quite relevant from my point of view as I have POIS/CFS and this exactly could explain the difference between my acute (dominated by POIS) and chronic phases (dominated by CFS).
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Sisyphus on February 23, 2025, 08:16:16 AM
Hi Progecitor. Thanks for your response. I'm afraid, perhaps due to all the medical jargon you've used again, I don't understand your summary of your post either! It's way over my head  ???.  Could you write a short summary of your summary? Or maybe you feel the content has been simplified as much as possible already?
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on February 23, 2025, 11:39:26 AM
@Progecitor

I find it difficult to follow your posts.


If I could tell you in one sentence I would have done so…


Rude reply!

I removed Progecitor’s post from: Today at 05:06:09 AM for his re-submission for length, clarity & technical jargon.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on February 23, 2025, 12:08:00 PM

Hi Progecitor. Thanks for your response. I'm afraid, perhaps due to all the medical jargon you've used again, I don't understand your summary of your post either! It's way over my head  ???.Could you write a short summary of your summary? Or maybe you feel the content has been simplified as much as possible already?


Once again, a forum etiquette issue!

Internet forum etiquette discourages the use of technical jargon, especially in forums with a non-technical member base.

Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Progecitor on February 24, 2025, 09:41:03 AM
I repost this for the curious. I hope this way it won’t offend anyone!

Recently the PINK1 and HIF-1alpha factors have been found to be increased in ME/CFS and long covid (LC) patients and there is no reason to believe that this would be any different in the case of POIS.
PINK1 induces mitophagy to eliminate damaged mitochondria, while HIF-1alpha induces glycolytic metabolism due to hypoxia and oxidative stress as a protective mechanism. In long covid patients there is a down shift in the glycolytic metabolism within a week after PEM induction, which makes it very reminiscent of a POIS episode.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on February 24, 2025, 10:10:57 AM

• PINK1

• HIF-1alpha factors

• ME/CFS

• mitophagy

• mitochondria

• glycolytic metabolism

• hypoxia

• oxidative stress

• PEM induction



PROGECITOR:


• These are not terms understood by the majority of our non-technical POISCenter forum members

• This is not good forum communication

• This is poor forum etiquette

• Please *E D I T*  & speak “English”!


As I stated yesterday:
technical jargon can alienate readers
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Hopeoneday on February 24, 2025, 12:29:16 PM
Latest post from Progec is ok, it is connected to a mater and wery
well summarized.
Enyone who want to understand what he is wroted, can easly learn
on google, yust can ask what it is.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on February 24, 2025, 12:47:52 PM
Latest post from Progec is ok, it is connected to a mater and wery
well summarized.
Enyone who want to understand what he is wroted, can easly learn
on google, yust can ask what it is.

• mater?

• wroted?

• wery?

• enyone?

• easly?

• yust?

THAT’s good forum communication? ;D ;D ;D


Poor spelling and grammar is poor forum etiquette for several reasons:
   1.   Clarity: Proper spelling and grammar help ensure that your message is clear and easy to understand. When posts are filled with errors, it can be difficult for others to grasp your intended meaning.
   2.   Professionalism: Using proper language can convey respect for the community and the topic being discussed. It shows that you are taking the time to communicate effectively.
   3.   Engagement: Well-written posts are more likely to engage readers and encourage meaningful responses. Poorly written posts might deter others from participating in the conversation.
   4.   Respect for Readers: Taking the time to proofread your posts demonstrates respect for the people who will be reading them. It shows that you value their time and are willing to make an effort to communicate clearly.

If you’re concerned about your spelling and grammar, using tools like spell checkers or grammar checkers can be helpful. Additionally, taking a moment to review your post before submitting it can make a big difference.


Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: Progecitor on February 24, 2025, 10:34:38 PM
As I stated yesterday:
technical jargon can alienate readers

Alright! I won’t post about scientific matters in the future! It took away much of my time and I have more important things to do anyway. Hopefully our researchers are going to fully figure out POIS soon!
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: carlo_francesco on February 25, 2025, 04:49:41 AM
As I stated yesterday:
technical jargon can alienate readers

Alright! I won’t post about scientific matters in the future! It took away much of my time and I have more important things to do anyway. Hopefully our researchers are going to fully figure out POIS soon!

I can appreciate the effort you put into your posts, but this is a sulky attitude. In my everyday technical writing I also tend to overcomplicate things and go down endless rabbit holes of derivations. But most often brevity trumps endless elaborations, if you want to get a point across in scientific matters. As suggested earlier, in the future, you could restrict your posts to the key messages and put your intermediate reasonings into a text file attachment. This allows forum members to follow your arguments in-depth, if they wish.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on February 25, 2025, 09:09:50 AM

As I stated yesterday:
technical jargon can alienate readers

Alright! I won’t post about scientific matters in the future! It took away much of my time and I have more important things to do anyway. Hopefully our researchers are going to fully figure out POIS soon!

I can appreciat the effort you put into your posts, but this is a sulky attitude. In my everyday technical writing I also tend to overcomplicate things and go down endless rabbit holes of derivations. But most often brevity trumps endless elaborations, if you want to get a point across in scientific matters. As suggested earlier, in the future, you could restrict your posts to the key messages and put your intermediate reasonings into a text file attachment. This allows forum members to follow your arguments in-depth, if they wish.

Thank you, carlo_francesco.

There have been research studies that confirm the impact of technical jargon in forums with non-technical audiences:
   1.   Zimmermann & Jucks (2018): This study found that experts using less technical jargon in forums aimed at laypersons were perceived as more credible and trustworthy. Conversely, excessive jargon reduced perceived accommodation and trustworthiness when addressing non-expert audiences.
   2.   Galinsky’s Research (2022): This study suggested that jargon is often used to signal authority or status but can alienate audiences unfamiliar with the terms, reducing effective communication.
   3.   Cybercrime Forum Study (2023): Research on a cybercrime forum revealed that excessive use of jargon (argot) negatively correlated with user reputation, suggesting that simpler language fosters better engagement and trust.
These studies highlight the importance of tailoring language to the audience for effective communication in forums.
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: berlin1984 on February 25, 2025, 09:39:49 AM
FYI I took this post:
If I could tell you in one sentence I would have done so, but you have to see the whole process to understand how it all comes together. I am not exactly sure how much hypoxia is involved, but ROS is a certain culprit and there is clearly a glycolytic shift in our metabolism partly due to mitochondrial dysfunction. Mitochondrial dysfunction itself may come about due to a variety of reasons (e.g. sepsis, senescence, autoimmunity, etc). If we consider the treatments that we, ME/CFS and long covid patients have used with some degree of success, then it is easy to see that HIF-1a regulation is majorly involved in disease control. It is especially interesting to see that post-exertional malaise (PEM) in long covid patients last for about a week, similarly to a POIS episode, when there is a back shift towards oxidative phosphorylation. However the tricarboxylic acid (TCA) cycle remains impaired with somewhat elevated glycolytic metabolites even at baseline. This is quite relevant from my point of view as I have POIS/CFS and this exactly could explain the difference between my acute (dominated by POIS) and chronic phases (dominated by CFS).

and pasted it into ChatGPT and asked it to dumb it down into easier language and summarize it to 3 sentences (twice):
Quote from: ChatGPT
The condition involves problems with how the body produces energy, often due to issues with the mitochondria. Some treatments for ME/CFS and long COVID focus on a protein called HIF-1a, which seems important for managing symptoms. The way energy shifts in the body during these conditions may explain the similarities between long COVID and POIS.

Maybe it's an option you put a tl;dr in front of your posts that contain an AI summary?
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on February 25, 2025, 04:31:09 PM
FYI I took this post:

If I could tell you in one sentence I would have done so, but you have to see the whole process to understand how it all comes together. I am not exactly sure how much hypoxia is involved, but ROS is a certain culprit and there is clearly a glycolytic shift in our metabolism partly due to mitochondrial dysfunction. Mitochondrial dysfunction itself may come about due to a variety of reasons (e.g. sepsis, senescence, autoimmunity, etc). If we consider the treatments that we, ME/CFS and long covid patients have used with some degree of success, then it is easy to see that HIF-1a regulation is majorly involved in disease control. It is especially interesting to see that post-exertional malaise (PEM) in long covid patients last for about a week, similarly to a POIS episode, when there is a back shift towards oxidative phosphorylation. However the tricarboxylic acid (TCA) cycle remains impaired with somewhat elevated glycolytic metabolites even at baseline. This is quite relevant from my point of view as I have POIS/CFS and this exactly could explain the difference between my acute (dominated by POIS) and chronic phases (dominated by CFS).
 and pasted it into ChatGPT and asked it to dumb it down into easier language and summarize it to 3 sentences (twice):
Quote from: ChatGPT

The condition involves problems with how the body produces energy, often due to issues with the mitochondria. Some treatments for ME/CFS and long COVID focus on a protein called HIF-1a, which seems important for managing symptoms. The way energy shifts in the body during these conditions may explain the similarities between long COVID and POIS.
 Maybe it's an option you put a tl;dr in front of your posts that contain an AI summary?

Brilliant, Berlin!!
Title: Re: Is POIS a version of CFS?
Post by: demografx on February 28, 2025, 12:26:00 AM

Maybe it's an option you [Progecitor] put a tl;dr in front of your posts that contain an AI summary?

Brilliant, Berlin!!
1.Berlin, I used tl;dr in front of this AI below twice
The question “what is life?” is complex and has been debated by philosophers, scientists, and thinkers across various disciplines. Here’s a concise overview:
Biological Perspective:
   •   Life is generally defined by characteristics such as growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.
   •   It involves complex interactions at the molecular, cellular, and organismal levels.
Philosophical Perspective:
   •   Life can be seen as a journey of experiences, emotions, and consciousness.
   •   It often involves questions about purpose, meaning, and existence.
Cultural and Social Perspective:
   •   Life is shaped by relationships, culture, and societal norms.
   •   It encompasses personal growth, learning, and contributions to the world around us.
In summary, life is a multifaceted concept that can be understood through biological, philosophical, and cultural lenses.


2.…and I got this!
Life is a mix of biology, consciousness, and experiences.

3. using tl;dr only once
Life is a complex mix of biological processes, personal experiences, and social interactions that shape our existence and understanding of the world.

Amazing, Berlin! :)