POIS treatment: theory & supplement stack

[Michael218]

Thanks Quantum! It is great having you here in this forum. Very grateful to have you here!

[nanna1]

Hi Nas,

   I realize that price is a major issue for parts of this stack. I have been trying different things to reduce the cost of the daily stack. The economics favor prepacks over a daily regime like the POIS Cascade Stack since with a prepack you are taking supplements less often. However, those who experience POIS probably also experience other negative health effects associated with inflammation that are more subtle and longer lasting than post-orgasm illness. So long-term health would favor a daily regime. But maybe there is some middle ground worth exploring. I am trying some new ideas in hopes of getting the cost down, but I will wait until I get results before sharing.

   In terms of the POIS Cascade Stack, you can probably get the most effect for your money from (SAM-e, B6, Lecithin) along with a reduction in dietary arachidonic acid (AA). AA is primarily stored in certain animal fat. To see how to reduce food intake of AA see the (Notes: About Omega-3:) section in the original post.

[demografx]

Thanks Quantum! It is great having you here in this forum. Very grateful to have you here!

Ditto!

[Quantum]

Thanks Quantum! It is great having you here in this forum. Very grateful to have you here!

Ditto!

Thanks for your words of appreciation, guys

[Michael218]

Nanna, so you mention you take:

On an empty stomach with water or juice, twice daily (water soluble):
---SAM-e (enteric coated)(200mg) [terminal methyl donor, a1A downregulator]
---pyridoxine HCl, vitamin B6 (2mg - 25mg) [homocysteine regulator]
---Metafolin, vitamin B9 (200mcg) [methyl group cycler]
---cyanocobalamin, vitamin B12 (50mcg) [methyl group cycler]
---Pick from one of the following three methyl group donors:
    1. tri-methylglycine, betaine (1.5g) [methyl group donor]
    2. alpha-glycerophosphocholine, alpha-GPC (1.2g) [methyl group donor]
    3. phosphatidylcholine, Lecithin concentrate (1.5g) [methyl group donor]
With food, twice daily (fat soluble):
---Benfotiamine, vitamin B1 (150mg) [h1H downregulator]
---eicosapentaenoic acid, EPA (900mg) [AA synthesis inhibitor, AA blocker]
---docosahexaenoic acid, DHA (150mg) [AA synthesis inhibitor]
---vitamin D3 (1000 IU) [AA inflammatory enzyme regulator, IDO/TDO down-regulator]

Few questions if i may.

1) you put B6 2mg-25 mg twice daily. Confused, how much is each separate dose?

2) how much fish do you eat regularly in your diet? I basically eat none. Never been keen on fish at all. Will i need to supplement more if i do not eat any fish?

3) you put 900 mg of EPA twice daily- does that mean you take 1800 mg per day, or did you mean 450 mg ? 2 doses? Same with the others, you put 200 mg of SAMe twice daily, a total of 400 mg SAMe per day?

4) I have been taking everything you mentioned for about 2 weeks now. If I slowly introduce SAMe into the stack next week, how long should it take before it gets the best results? I currently take my own prepack but only prior to orgasm so i would like to test your stack without the aid of my current prepack eventually...

5) hows your prepack working for you now? How many o's are you able to have weekly without symptoms at the moment?

[nanna1]

Hi Michael218,

Sorry for the delayed reply. I have not been on the forum this week.

• 2mg - 25mg is a range for a single dose. I have personally used single doses in that range. There is a brief discussion about this in the (Note: About vitamin B6: ) section of the original post.
• I do not eat fish on a regular basis. I might eat fish once a week (single meal) or once every other week.
• The EPA dose I am using is 2x900mg, so 1800mg per day. The SAMe dose is 2x200mg, so a total of 400mg per day. However, I some times find it hard to get the second SAMe dose in, since I am at work and it needs to be taken on an empty stomach. So many days I only do a single SAMe dose, but on an orgasm day I always make sure to get the second dose in. It is kind of a cheat on the SAMe dosing.
• I would say that 1 month of supplementation is a good time point to judge whether the stack is working for you.
• The stack works the same now as always. I do not orgasm that often, maybe twice a week. My only symptoms are drowsiness. I tend to fall asleep quickly right after an orgasm. But when I wake up, I have plenty of energy.

Thanks for the question.

[Shep]

Hello, Nana! Question? There Pois 7 people, and they passed tests for hormones. Everyone has a common, this is increased progesterone and cortisol. What do you think about it? What treatment can be done? And I think many of those who took tests from this forum similar. Thanks! Sorry for English.

[Nas]

Hey Nanna,
So I would like to fill you in on my 3weeks of supplementation with this pack. On the first day I tried the empty stomach stack, I orgasmed after it within 3 hours, and boy oh boy it was the first time I ever felt that I have been even remotly reliefed of at least 20% of my symptoms. I noticed that I was able to speak with some form of consistency without stutering that much, which wasn't the case in the past.
And so I continued the supplementation, and as I mentioned because the pack is a bit too expensive, I decided to trade money with time, so I only take them once a day (even on orgasm days), so that would probably mean that I won't see the full effect for about two months ? ( does it work like that ? ) Still the biggest effect I noticed besides the about 50% relief, is that on day to day basis I started noticing a huge difference socially, I became more connected with people and generally calmer and more interactive, still not 100% obviously but it's definitely much better. I still suffer from congnitive issues though such as memory problems, multitasking and short attention span.
One thing that I noticed is that every single supplement I take, I feel energized right away after taking, but it's not the case with the GPC, as taking it causes intial brain fog and taking the full 1.2 even starts showing some sensetiviry problems. And that's why I orderd lecithin instead, as it is generally less symptoms inducing than the GPC I think.

[Quantum]

That's great, Nas!  I am happy that you have finally found a way to reduce your POIS symptoms, at least in part. 

With time, and by fine tuning your regimen, your percentage of relief will surely get better.  You are on the right path

[Nas]

Thank you Quantum, Hopefully I am

[Rinat]

Hello.
 I take the stack of Nanna. I feel good. I noticed that communication with people is much easier. I began to speak well and my memory improved. But now strange things happen to me. I've been abstaining from O. for about two weeks already. I noticed that my memory is progressing. But my skeleton got sick. I feel that my bones are brittle. But as soon as I did not take the TMG, I again felt good, but my memory and speech became a little worse. Do not you think that this is a reaction to the dying of a fungal infection? I need your advice. What do i do?
is it possible because of the lack of vitamins B? I now practically do not use them
 all the best,Rinat

[fathom]

Folks, I have been busy for last 1 month getting myself treated at Cleveland clinic while same time increasing my vitamin stack sourced from this forum.  I learnt a couple of things specific to my various conditions, and might be that they are helpful to you, since I'm increasingly seeing a pattern of all people here.  Also I have a few questions in particular from Nanna1

To set baseline, my symptoms are much more severe than most people on this forum, in that while the POIS 7-day period makes my symptoms worse, however 1/2 of my symptoms are chronic and present 24x7 regardless of having or not having an o, but they are closely related in the sense that they are neurological in nature.

1. I think Sam-e and Choline supplement has done wonders for me.  My face paresis (post car accident) has disappeared since last 2 weeks.  I'd say safely 90% improvement (for the first time in my life)
2. My voice and speech lethargy/fatigue symptoms have not shown visible improvement, maybe 5-10% improvement.
3. I learnt from Cleveland that I dont have any acid reflux, the Bravo endoscopy and other studies revealed a perfect stomach and throat pH and reflux events even less than the larger healthy population.  The docs  didn't say it, but I felt they were saying to me, its all in my head and the sooner I forget about acid reflux in particular the better.  They did diagnose me with chronic low-grade depression (called dysthemia) and chronic generalized anxiety (GAD) and mild disphonia.

General every day med stack:
Sam-e (200mg x 2)
Alpha-GPC 600 mg (or Phosphtadyl Choline 420 mg on certain days I would rather take the slippery PC softgels)
EPA 400 mg / DHA 200 mg
Multi-vitamin (I'm taking an expensive brand 'whole foods Men's +40 multi' - even though I'm not close to 40 yet.
About every other day:  Nettle Leaf 225 mg and sometime Quercetin 500 mg with Bromelain 150 mg.
Prescription meds: Vyvanse 70mg (its like adderral) and Gabapentin 100mg (for anxiety)

Pre-POIS: (I think my POIS period has shrunk from 7 days to 6 days)
General stack + Benadryl  25 mg + Quercetin 500 mg with Bromelain 150 mg

QUESTION 1:  What should be next that I add to my stack ... my most pressing concern is really my "speech/voice fatigue"?  This speech/voice fatigue kicks in daily around Noon and lasts till bed time.   On waking up my speech/voice are back to normal and starts to degrade as day progresses.

QUESTION 2: I am intrigued by Sam-e which works closely with choline, and you mention to slowly increase AlphaGPC otherwise it could cause back pain or upper leg pain.  Would there be an explanation of why this happens?  Reason I ask, I try to lift weights and do cardio like kick boxing, though lately my legs or ankles or thighs are getting swollen on kicking harder and I'm wondering if it is anyway related to anything I'm doing not the best way (swelling comes first, and then as I rest for few days, swelling starts to moved downwards and turn into a bruise ... it all recovers to normal in 3-4-5 days)

[Nas]

About Question 2, no he said that about the alpha gpc not the sam-e.

[fathom]

true Nas, I was going to correct/edit it : )

[Quantum]

Hi, Nas, Fathom, Rinat, ans others,

I am happy to see that many members find relief with Nanna's stack.   Omega-3 are a great supplement, in my opinion, and SAMe is very beneficial for anyone needing methylation support, among other things.  It is sad that the major problem with SAMe is its price, but with years, it tends to get lower.


Keep the forum updated with your experiences, guys !

I would like to point out, for all the members following this thread, that in some cases, reaction to SAMe may be negative, if methylation is already too high.  So, it is well to start slowly, with low doses.  At any rate, omega-3 can be taken anyway, even when SAMe is not well tolerated, because EPA and DHA form these omega-3 fatty acids are beneficial on their own.

[fathom]

Hi Quantum, I think my neurological problems are related to methylation.  You are right on caution, and thats why I am a little cautious, I am getting great/amazing results so far with using Nanna1's partial stack, though I see few complications as well (getting injured, swollen and bruised easily, but that could be unrelated to the stack I'm taking).  I wish Nanna1 was more "present here" : )

From his stack, what I am currently missing is:
1. Benfotiamine Vit B1 (an h1H down regulator) ... though my multi-vitamin does have Thiamin as Thiamin HCl from Culture Media, 2 mg which is 113% of DV.  I dont know why Nanna1 has 150mg of Benfo, that seems tooo high?
2. Metafolin Vit B9 200mcg (a methyl group cycler ... though my multi-vitamin does have twice the amount 400 mcg of Folate as Folic Acid )
3.  Vit D3 1000 IU (AA inflammatory Enzyme regulator ...  though my multi-vitamin does have equal amount 1000 IU of Vit D2 in form of Ergocalciferol)

I am thinking maybe the leg swelling is due to missing a compound (or maybe I'm taking too much compound) that is supposed to regulate some critical chemical that might be getting otherwise out of whack? 

b/w: I dont know where you live Quantum, in the US SAMe, I purchased from Amazon, its 'Now' brand 200 mg, 60 tablets for I think $23, certainly not cheap but not exorbitant.  I am hoping long-term if all this works, we can gradually wean off these things ... I dont know how that will work   If you are in closer to Russia, I have seen some hard-to-find nootropics advertised on their websites for like $7.

[Quantum]

Hi Fathom, thanks for your feedback.

About Nanna's presence here, he told in a previous message that things were picking up at work and would be less present here ( see at the end of http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg21550#msg21550 ).  However, he keeps on loging here about once a week.

About Folic acid vs methylfolate, a good percentage of the population have low activity in the biological pathway by which folic acid is converted to methylfolate, the active form of folate, so taking methylfolate directly is better.  It is also better to take it along with b12 ( best if methylcobalamin form of B12) to avoid the so called "methyl trap", where methylfolate can cause more harm than good, for some particular mix of SNPs.


About SAMe price, 23 $US is a very good deal for 60 caps of 200mg.   Prices go a little bit lower every year.  I live in Canada.  I have checked the site, and with delivery, plus exchange rate, that would be 38 $CAN for me, from this same amazon.com vendor ( on amazon,ca, best price is over $50 for the exact same product....).  As you said, it is not cheap, but not exorbitant.   for those who get relief from POIS with this supplement, it is worth the price.

In my personal case, I very badly reacted to methylfolate supplementation, about 2 to 3 years ago, so I may not be under-methylated but over-methylated, and may also react negatively to SAMe.  My reaction to methylfolate was no better than POIS itself, with 2 to 3 days of intense fatigue, even with low doses, so I didn't insist, after 3 tests, the last one with a small dose of 50mcg. My baseline anxiety level was still fairly high 3 years ago, so that may explain a part of the reaction, but now that I have a stable, efficient way to control my POIS, I do not feel like challenging this result...hehe.  However, I have no problem eating greens, so I get methylfolate through veggies and fruits, in my green smoothies, and tolerate it very well, and I am satisfied with this.

[nanna1]

Hi Rinat,
  In relation to your question about brittle bones,

Hello.
 I take the stack of Nanna. I feel good. I noticed that communication with people is much easier. I began to speak well and my memory improved. But now strange things happen to me. I've been abstaining from O. for about two weeks already. I noticed that my memory is progressing. But my skeleton got sick. I feel that my bones are brittle. But as soon as I did not take the TMG, I again felt good, but my memory and speech became a little worse. Do not you think that this is a reaction to the dying of a fungal infection? I need your advice. What do i do? Is it possible because of the lack of vitamins B? I now practically do not use them
 all the best,Rinat
Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 08:53:45 AM by Rinat

  Let me start with a little background. Human Growth Hormone (HGH) and insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) are two hormones that increase bone growth, while cortisol decreases bone growth. Vitamins B6 and B12 increase Human Growth Hormone (HGH) and insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) partly by increasing the liver production of taurine (Vitamin B12–dependent taurine synthesis regulates growth and bone mass). Betaine (TMG) increases IGF-1 and decreases cortisol production in response to exercise (Betaine supplementation enhances anabolic endocrine and Akt signaling in response to acute bouts of exercise.). Both Choline (lecithin) and Vitamin D3 increase bone density and strength (Dietary Choline Intake Is Directly Associated with Bone Mineral Density in the Hordaland Health Study.). Omega-3s tend to increase bone density, while omega-6s tend to decrease bone density (The impact of omega-3 fatty acids on osteoporosis.). You might be getting brittle bones, but it is not clear which supplement (if any) would be associated with this. Significant changes in bone density usually take years. But if there is a concern about bone density, I would recommend getting a Bone Density Test (x-ray) from a physician.

  My guess is that you are experiencing symptoms of dehydration (TMG is an osmolyte). When dehydrated, the lubrication in the joints of the bones is reduced which can cause the bones to not move smoothly and feel weak. This is different from a change in bone density and can be reversed with sufficient water consumption. I hope something here was helpful.

[nanna1]

Hi fathom,

  In relation to your Oct. 23rd post, I assume your multivitamin contains vitamin B12 and D3. If not, those would be the next additions that I would make to your stack. Also, I take more omega-3 than is in your stack. I realize that omega-3s are expensive. I read somewhere that L-taurine efficiently decreases arachidonic acid (an omega-6). I haven't experimented with taurine, so you will have to figure it out if you want to try taurine instead of increasing omega-3. However, taurine is an osmolyte and requires a lot of water consumption to be effective.

  Also I think that drinking sufficient water would help with your voice fatigue and wound healing (see previous post link 1 and link 2). A topical glucocorticoid (over-the-counter) or progesterone (prescription) cream could help temporarily reduce swelling. However, repeatedly injuring the same locations on the leg will lead to a worsening of symptoms over time especially if you do not fully recover between injuries.

  Wound healing can be controlled by hormones like testosterone and progesterone. Some times as we age, our hormone levels drop. Pregnenolone sulfate is the quickest way to boost hormone levels. It is a prohormone in that it is not active on its own but requires conversion into other hormones to have an effect. However, I personally recommend cooking with curry powders and spices (frying the spices in oil before adding other food ingredients) and eating cruciferous vegetables. Spices (cumin, oregano, thyme, tumeric, ginger) and cruciferous vegetables should help speed wound healing.

Also, may I share a little trick I have learned for reducing inflammation directly on the skin/joints/muscle:

• fry 1 teaspoon of curry powder (cumin, oregano, thyme, tumeric, ginger mixture) in 1 tablespoon of oil (canola) in a small pan on medium-heat for 2 to 5 min
• when the curry/oil mixture cools to room temperature, mix in 5 drops of eucalyptus essential oil (high in eucalyptol) and 5 drops of lemon essential oil (high in limonene)
• then rub into the skin near the place of inflammation for ~20 seconds

Frying the spices allows for the fat soluble parts of the spice to dissolve into the oil. After frying, you can separate the oil from the spice (starch, fiber, cellulose). The main active ingredient is the eucalyptol from the eucalypus oil. So if all you do is mix eucalypus oil with canola oil, it should still work. Eucalyptol is used extensively in the dentistry profession to numb pain, reduce inflammation, speed healing and inhibit the coughing response. Limonene functions similar to eucalyptol. In my opinion, this is more effective than topical glucocorticoid for local injuries in skin/joints. I hope something here is helpful.

[certainlypois2]

If i keep vitamin d to 400 ius a day, is that okay,  any more it start to keep me from going to sleep at proper times