Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?

[poisioq]

If the high histamine theory is correct then POIS sufferers who are not on medication which reduce libido (SSRI's perhaps) would have a high libido and would find it very very difficult to stop having orgasms. Indeed, they'd be quick to become aroused which would make POIS even worse as they'd be more inclined to orgasm than most people.

I'm not on any medication but my libido  is very low. you already suggested it could be because of high prolactin (that actually was a bit high on my hormonal test results). So i'll keep it monitored.
But i want to ask you one think.
I'm getting convinced that i could be an histadelic person because i have many symptoms, except low libido and the fact that i'm not a high achiever (but i think POIS itself had a big influence on that).
anyways, i have been reading at some forums where people is sharing information about remedies etc...
many of them suggest a simple way to self test histadelia: it consists on taking 50mg of niacin, if you get a flush then it is a good indicator of histamine levels. as per those forum, the higher is the amount you need to get a flush,  the lower is the amount of histamine in the blood.
well, i actually can get a flush with only 50mg.
does it make sense for you?

[kurtosis]

If the high histamine theory is correct then POIS sufferers who are not on medication which reduce libido (SSRI's perhaps) would have a high libido and would find it very very difficult to stop having orgasms. Indeed, they'd be quick to become aroused which would make POIS even worse as they'd be more inclined to orgasm than most people.

I'm not on any medication but my libido  is very low. you already suggested it could be because of high prolactin (that actually was a bit high on my hormonal test results). So i'll keep it monitored.
But i want to ask you one think.
I'm getting convinced that i could be an histadelic person because i have many symptoms, except low libido and the fact that i'm not a high achiever (but i think POIS itself had a big influence on that).
anyways, i have been reading at some forums where people is sharing information about remedies etc...
many of them suggest a simple way to self test histadelia: it consists on taking 50mg of niacin, if you get a flush then it is a good indicator of histamine levels. as per those forum, the higher is the amount you need to get a flush,  the lower is the amount of histamine in the blood.
well, i actually can get a flush with only 50mg.
does it make sense for you?

That's interesting.

Yes, it does make sense. 50mg to get a flush is low. Of course, when people take it for a while, then their tolerance increases. In a way, there may be some desens going on there also
One thing that also reduces libido is depression. Did you always have a low libido and what does that mean to you? Do you feel disinclined to have sex or O's because of POIS or just because of disinterest? It's complicated.
I wonder if Demografx, for instance, always felt symptoms of hypogonadism or if that's something that just happened BECAUSE of POIS. Immunological problems can reduce testosterone levels.

[demografx]

While I think it's important to ensure that people considering desensitization are fully aware of the risks (and this is ESPECIALLY TRUE with SLIT and other procedures not administered under the supervision of a physician) this post shades heavily into fearmongering and putting people off of the only real technique that we've seen sustained success from. It, in many cases, OVERSTATES the risk of professionally administered desens, and in some implies risks that there's little or no scientific support for. There are a number of us who have benefitted from desens and have shared our experiences on this board. Are our experiences (and the 50% reduction in my symptoms) "fiction" daveman?

How is this approach at all productive? What we should be doing is something that you and Demo are usually quite keen to do (but have refrained from doing in this case -- instead substituting your expert medical opinions): encourage people to have frank discussions with their doctors regarding their treatment and the (real, rather than fabricated and sensationalistic) risks associated with it.

Egordon, many thanks for your well thought out commentary!

As a moderator, I strive to look for overall balance on any topic.

I also feel protective of new, possibly medically naive members, and also of the silent readers.

I think we have uncovered more pros and cons than ever before. With this thread. Without ad hominem arguments. And if Daveman and I introduced any negativity, it was intended to balance some of the current experiments with "expert medical opinion" as you described me and Daveman. No, we don't think of ourselves in any way, shape, or form as... medical experts as you state. But, as Daveman wrote, our information also comes from well-informed immunologists and other medical professionals. As yours does I'm sure.

I am not concerned about highly qualified physicians performing these procedures. But, as you know that is not always the case! My feeling is that the forum has a responsibility to  arm every "seeker of a POIS cure" with, not fearmongering, as you suggest that Daveman and I do, but medical facts as much as successful experiments.

Please take a look at the whole forum's activity on desensitization. Our few comments hardly overwhelm the desensitization community in terms of FAIR AND ACCURATE coverage.

We all want the same thing. In my opinion.

[kurtosis]

Regarding the whole "high achiever" thing. It's not that straightforward. The histadelic person would generally have a family where there are high achievers and feel a desire to achieve themselves. The point is that you would feel you should be achieving or being more successful rather than accepting POIS.
That's really important. There are people here who are relatively high achievers (by most standards) yet they still want to achieve more. That's interesting and suggests there's an aspect of the POIS personality type. The desire to do better and the understanding that things are wrong.

A normal or low histamine person may not give a crap that their cognitive abilities are so variable. That's an interesting thing to note.

[Daveman]

If the high histamine theory is correct then POIS sufferers who are not on medication which reduce libido (SSRI's perhaps) would have a high libido and would find it very very difficult to stop having orgasms. Indeed, they'd be quick to become aroused which would make POIS even worse as they'd be more inclined to orgasm than most people.

I'm not on any medication but my libido  is very low. you already suggested it could be because of high prolactin (that actually was a bit high on my hormonal test results). So i'll keep it monitored.
But i want to ask you one think.
I'm getting convinced that i could be an histadelic person because i have many symptoms, except low libido and the fact that i'm not a high achiever (but i think POIS itself had a big influence on that).
anyways, i have been reading at some forums where people is sharing information about remedies etc...
many of them suggest a simple way to self test histadelia: it consists on taking 50mg of niacin, if you get a flush then it is a good indicator of histamine levels. as per those forum, the higher is the amount you need to get a flush,  the lower is the amount of histamine in the blood.
well, i actually can get a flush with only 50mg.
does it make sense for you?

That's interesting.

Yes, it does make sense. 50mg to get a flush is low. Of course, when people take it for a while, then their tolerance increases. In a way, there may be some desens going on there also
One thing that also reduces libido is depression. Did you always have a low libido and what does that mean to you? Do you feel disinclined to have sex or O's because of POIS or just because of disinterest? It's complicated.
I wonder if Demografx, for instance, always felt symptoms of hypogonadism or if that's something that just happened BECAUSE of POIS. Immunological problems can reduce testosterone levels.

I think you have to consider the stomach first. What I mean is, In the morning after all night without eating and just waking up I can get a flush with 50. But even 4 hrs after a good barbeque and beer, I barely get a flush, if at all, with 400mg.

That has something to do with the liver I think doesn't it? I don't think histamine levels are involved there. At least, if you want to test for histamine, I imagine you would have to neutralize other factors and test at times that are most reflective of histamine condition.

[kurtosis]

True but if someone can flush on 50mg of niacin with a full stomach it may indicate high histamine levels.
Primarily, food affects absorption.

[Daveman]

I've tried it under the tongue for times when I haven't fasted as long as I'd like, but very little difference. Faster maybe, 5 min instead of 15 to see a result.

[poisioq]

One thing that also reduces libido is depression. Did you always have a low libido and what does that mean to you? Do you feel disinclined to have sex or O's because of POIS or just because of disinterest? It's complicated.
 

I actually am disinclined because of POIS. Only few times I had a good libido.
Last time was when for an acute gastritis I couldn't eat almost anything during some weeks.
when I had an O I had a high libido and and felt POIS free. this for me confirmes histamine theory.if I'm right each food we eat induces a histamine reaction, some more than other. so, eating small amount of food for a long time should help the methylation process. As soon I came back on a normal diet issues appeared again

[poisioq]

If the high histamine theory is correct then POIS sufferers who are not on medication which reduce libido (SSRI's perhaps) would have a high libido and would find it very very difficult to stop having orgasms. Indeed, they'd be quick to become aroused which would make POIS even worse as they'd be more inclined to orgasm than most people.

I'm not on any medication but my libido  is very low. you already suggested it could be because of high prolactin (that actually was a bit high on my hormonal test results). So i'll keep it monitored.
But i want to ask you one think.
I'm getting convinced that i could be an histadelic person because i have many symptoms, except low libido and the fact that i'm not a high achiever (but i think POIS itself had a big influence on that).
anyways, i have been reading at some forums where people is sharing information about remedies etc...
many of them suggest a simple way to self test histadelia: it consists on taking 50mg of niacin, if you get a flush then it is a good indicator of histamine levels. as per those forum, the higher is the amount you need to get a flush,  the lower is the amount of histamine in the blood.
well, i actually can get a flush with only 50mg.
does it make sense for you?

That's interesting.

Yes, it does make sense. 50mg to get a flush is low. Of course, when people take it for a while, then their tolerance increases. In a way, there may be some desens going on there also
One thing that also reduces libido is depression. Did you always have a low libido and what does that mean to you? Do you feel disinclined to have sex or O's because of POIS or just because of disinterest? It's complicated.
I wonder if Demografx, for instance, always felt symptoms of hypogonadism or if that's something that just happened BECAUSE of POIS. Immunological problems can reduce testosterone levels.

I think you have to consider the stomach first. What I mean is, In the morning after all night without eating and just waking up I can get a flush with 50. But even 4 hrs after a good barbeque and beer, I barely get a flush, if at all, with 400mg.

That has something to do with the liver I think doesn't it? I don't think histamine levels are involved there. At least, if you want to test for histamine, I imagine you would have to neutralize other factors and test at times that are most reflective of histamine condition.

maybe you are right , but i still can get a good flush with only 100mg even inmediately after eating a lot.
it would be better investigatiing about the histamine level in blood, that would be more accurated

[Snowblind]

Will regular anti-histamines help or how will we go about reducing our histamine levels if this is the case for POIS?

[kurtosis]

Will regular anti-histamines help or how will we go about reducing our histamine levels if this is the case for POIS?

Unfortunately not. Given the range of cognitive symptoms we experience, it seems doubtful that the only histamine receptors triggered are H1 so most of the histamines you'd buy in a chemist would be useless.

This needs more research. The ideal would be a h3 and h1 inverse agonist but I can't find any that are on the market. The closest I found was a vertigo medication which is a h3 antagonist but a h1 agonist.

[Starsky]

Just antihistamines with mast cell stabilizing properties like ketitofen could help.

[Daveman]

Will regular anti-histamines help or how will we go about reducing our histamine levels if this is the case for POIS?

Unfortunately not. Given the range of cognitive symptoms we experience, it seems doubtful that the only histamine receptors triggered are H1 so most of the histamines you'd buy in a chemist would be useless.

This needs more research. The ideal would be a h3 and h1 inverse agonist but I can't find any that are on the market. The closest I found was a vertigo medication which is a h3 antagonist but a h1 agonist.

Yesterday was weird. I was on the border of an anxiety attack all day. It was day 5, however after a reasonable niacin session. I had to take 400mg to get a flush which was light. Day 1 was fairly rough, but strangely I did a lot of heavy work that day and it seemed to actually lessen the POIS. I don't know, it was as though the work seemed to activate something from the niacin effect. Normally exercise makes my POIS worse and I can't even do the amount that I did that day.

But getting back. The rest of the session has been good, little to no POIS after a good sleep the night of day 1.

Except for this day 5 anxiety. To make things worse, I didn't have my Xanax with me, that I usually have around "just in case". I tried to calm myself, and never really entered "an attack", but was feeling quite uncomfortable.

I started thinking about anti-histamines. Perhaps I was having a histamine surge or something. So I went to look for the equivalent of Benadryl (here in Chile) HA. Couldn't find it, but found loratadina. I am very cautious, certainly didn't want to make things worse, so just took a half dose.

It worked! Didn't feel any other effects, drowsiness, nothing, but the anxiety just went away within about half an hour.

Who knows, maybe even placebo!

Loratadina works on the H1. Who knows. I know anti-histamines have never worked for me with the more physical symptoms, but somehow something worked here.

[kurtosis]

Will regular anti-histamines help or how will we go about reducing our histamine levels if this is the case for POIS?

Unfortunately not. Given the range of cognitive symptoms we experience, it seems doubtful that the only histamine receptors triggered are H1 so most of the histamines you'd buy in a chemist would be useless.

This needs more research. The ideal would be a h3 and h1 inverse agonist but I can't find any that are on the market. The closest I found was a vertigo medication which is a h3 antagonist but a h1 agonist.

Yesterday was weird. I was on the border of an anxiety attack all day. It was day 5, however after a reasonable niacin session. I had to take 400mg to get a flush which was light. Day 1 was fairly rough, but strangely I did a lot of heavy work that day and it seemed to actually lessen the POIS. I don't know, it was as though the work seemed to activate something from the niacin effect. Normally exercise makes my POIS worse and I can't even do the amount that I did that day.

But getting back. The rest of the session has been good, little to no POIS after a good sleep the night of day 1.

Except for this day 5 anxiety. To make things worse, I didn't have my Xanax with me, that I usually have around "just in case". I tried to calm myself, and never really entered "an attack", but was feeling quite uncomfortable.

I started thinking about anti-histamines. Perhaps I was having a histamine surge or something. So I went to look for the equivalent of Benadryl (here in Chile) HA. Couldn't find it, but found loratadina. I am very cautious, certainly didn't want to make things worse, so just took a half dose.

It worked! Didn't feel any other effects, drowsiness, nothing, but the anxiety just went away within about half an hour.

Who knows, maybe even placebo!

Loratadina works on the H1. Who knows. I know anti-histamines have never worked for me with the more physical symptoms, but somehow something worked here.

Well, you've h1 receptors all around your body but I still feel that most of the cognitive symptoms are coming from h3. However, inflammation which isn't fighting a problematic allergen is just bad inflammation. So I've nothing against taking anti-histamines but, any my Spanish is rubbish, doesn't Loratadina also contain pseudo ephedrine. It's not quite an epi-pen (similar idea) but I'm guessing it's a combination of h1 antagonism and the PE that helps you overcome the symptoms.

[LAPOISSE]

Interesting theory about H3 receptors ; if POIS is an allergy, it's definitely involves H3

How do we confirm that ? I've just read there is no anti H3 commercialized in my country..what about the vertigo drug ? Better than nothing ?

[kurtosis]

Interesting theory about H3 receptors ; if POIS is an allergy, it's definitely involves H3

How do we confirm that ? I've just read there is no anti H3 commercialized in my country..what about the vertigo drug ? Better than nothing ?

It might be but you'd have to take it under medical supervision. It agonises h1 receptors. Most anti-histamines are h1 inverse agonists so I'd be worried that taking an agonist before an O would make POIS symptoms worse. A possibility is taking betahistine after a h1 antagonist but that sounds risky also.

Other possibilities are mast cell stabilisers. These may reduce the overall levels of histamine and are used to treat some high histamine conditions. This could be a safer option for the moment.
I'm taking methionine to reduce histamine. It's not perfect but I sure feel a lot better. Oddly methionine and D-Ribose seems to work a bit better for me than SAMe. SAMe is good though but it kicks in fast and I feel my allergies returning in a few hours. I've also noticed that the now b vitamins I take has TMG / Betaine which is also used in methylation reactions.

Until h3 inverse agonists with either no or inverse agonistic effects on h1 and h2 are available then there's no "silver bullet" and this assumes that this theory is correct. I have a hunch that h3 inverse agonists will prove to be successful ADHD medications as I've heard some people say SAMe and methionine helped with their ADHD, implying there may be a common histamine connection to our problem and some sufferers of attention disorders. Pitolisant (another H3 inverse agonist) has shown some efficacy in studies to treat schizophrenia. Similarly with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABT-239
this class of drugs appears to have a nootropic affect, stimulating memory, learning, concentration and increasing intelligence.

This is an emerging area in neuroscience research. This overview paper is as recent as 2004 http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/11/1/1.full
Remember that drugs can have a very long gestation period. Pharmaceutical companies don't rush them out on the market.

Clinical trials are showing that dosages are very important. In our brains, the h3 receptor triggered reduction of neurotransmitter production is being done by the body for safety reasons.  Accepting that some people (POIS sufferers perhaps) could have a malfunction, most people would not want their h3 receptors antagonised on a permeant basis. It could prove overstimulating, affect cardiac rhythms etc. It may be safer than amphetamines but these will still be powerful drugs.

Anyway, it's a research area for NORD to consider.

[Daveman]

Will regular anti-histamines help or how will we go about reducing our histamine levels if this is the case for POIS?

Unfortunately not. Given the range of cognitive symptoms we experience, it seems doubtful that the only histamine receptors triggered are H1 so most of the histamines you'd buy in a chemist would be useless.

This needs more research. The ideal would be a h3 and h1 inverse agonist but I can't find any that are on the market. The closest I found was a vertigo medication which is a h3 antagonist but a h1 agonist.

Yesterday was weird. I was on the border of an anxiety attack all day. It was day 5, however after a reasonable niacin session. I had to take 400mg to get a flush which was light. Day 1 was fairly rough, but strangely I did a lot of heavy work that day and it seemed to actually lessen the POIS. I don't know, it was as though the work seemed to activate something from the niacin effect. Normally exercise makes my POIS worse and I can't even do the amount that I did that day.

But getting back. The rest of the session has been good, little to no POIS after a good sleep the night of day 1.

Except for this day 5 anxiety. To make things worse, I didn't have my Xanax with me, that I usually have around "just in case". I tried to calm myself, and never really entered "an attack", but was feeling quite uncomfortable.

I started thinking about anti-histamines. Perhaps I was having a histamine surge or something. So I went to look for the equivalent of Benadryl (here in Chile) HA. Couldn't find it, but found loratadina. I am very cautious, certainly didn't want to make things worse, so just took a half dose.

It worked! Didn't feel any other effects, drowsiness, nothing, but the anxiety just went away within about half an hour.

Who knows, maybe even placebo!

Loratadina works on the H1. Who knows. I know anti-histamines have never worked for me with the more physical symptoms, but somehow something worked here.

Well, you've h1 receptors all around your body but I still feel that most of the cognitive symptoms are coming from h3. However, inflammation which isn't fighting a problematic allergen is just bad inflammation. So I've nothing against taking anti-histamines but, any my Spanish is rubbish, doesn't Loratadina also contain pseudo ephedrine. It's not quite an epi-pen (similar idea) but I'm guessing it's a combination of h1 antagonism and the PE that helps you overcome the symptoms.

No in this case, the produce has just loratidina. Nothing else. I wanted to avoid any coffeine or psuedoephidrine.

I think loratidina is a compound in itself, but some brands mix the pseudoephidrine in with it.

The brand name is called Alledryl.

It might have been placebo.... but I guess the important is that it worked. I'll try more testing, although I don't have
lots of these types of problems, just every once in a while.

I'll see what I can find in H3... I'm in Chile after all.

[LAPOISSE]

Thanks Kurtosis,

I need to make un update to my doc who is trying to have one of his colegue setting up some research protocol.

Does the H3 reaction theory fits with (i) the Niacin partial cure a lot of us experienced ? (ii) the TRT cure ? I understand that thoose 2 medications seems to have an effect on the causes when all others are treating symptoms (actualy not really s?re about that)

[kurtosis]

Thanks Kurtosis,

I need to make un update to my doc who is trying to have one of his colegue setting up some research protocol.

Does the H3 reaction theory fits with (i) the Niacin partial cure a lot of us experienced ? (ii) the TRT cure ? I understand that thoose 2 medications seems to have an effect on the causes when all others are treating symptoms (actualy not really s?re about that)

Yes.
TRT appears to reduce histamine levels in mice studies. It's a potent natural anti-inflammatory.
Niacinamide appears to be a mast cell stabiliser. Niacin appears to cause a flush which releases histamine but the greatest increase is in prostaglandins. It's possible that niacin flush either reduces the net amount of histamine that can reach the brain after an O or the prostaglandin (PGD2) that's released may reduce the ability of mast cells to release as much histamine during an O. The last bit is quite theoretical and I'm having difficulty finding papers to verify it. There's some linked elsewhere in the forum. No time to find them right now.

[Daveman]

Thanks Kurtosis,

I need to make un update to my doc who is trying to have one of his colegue setting up some research protocol.

Does the H3 reaction theory fits with (i) the Niacin partial cure a lot of us experienced ? (ii) the TRT cure ? I understand that thoose 2 medications seems to have an effect on the causes when all others are treating symptoms (actualy not really s?re about that)

Yes.
TRT appears to reduce histamine levels in mice studies. It's a potent natural anti-inflammatory.
Niacinamide appears to be a mast cell stabiliser. Niacin appears to cause a flush which releases histamine but the greatest increase is in prostaglandins. It's possible that niacin flush either reduces the net amount of histamine that can reach the brain after an O or the prostaglandin (PGD2) that's released may reduce the ability of mast cells to release as much histamine during an O. The last bit is quite theoretical and I'm having difficulty finding papers to verify it. There's some linked elsewhere in the forum. No time to find them right now.

I'm not a biology expert, doh, but with niacin,
I've always had the feeling that something is done that short
circuits the process that creates the imbalance. So in that case, the later,
and more complicated of the scenarios would seem to apply better:

That niacin either reduces the amount of histamine generated during "O", thereby
not overloading the system or depleting the building blocks, PGD2(?) for
production of dopamine and other elements we need to keep balance. Or it provides
fuel / building blocks to produce the histamine required, without depleting the system.

If it's just a matter of reducing the amount of histamine that reaches the brain during
orgasm, would that have the longer term effect of stopping POIS for the days that follow?