Dopamine

[kurtosis]

Perhaps this is the best place for the following:

My last two sessions were pretty IFy. I only had about 30% reduction of POIS.

My principal form of treatment is Niacin. But in these last two sessions, I had been trying the B-Complex daily during the week, and then Niacin before orgasm as always.
I feel good taking the B-Complex. It makes me feel "healthier", and I think it helps to "wash out some of the crap" in my system. I pee more etc. Also, my orgasms
are stronger and I have greater "staying power". BUT my POIS is worse!! The cognitive relief is still there, but the inflamation is much worse.

Last night I wanted to try an experiment. Unfortunately, to be honest, it was directed at two goals, so I can't be sure which has help the most.

I had gone more than a week without the B-Complex, and just wanted to try niacin by itself again, becasue both time with B-Complex made my POIS worse. I also wanted to wait longer after the flush for the orgasm, which would hopefully allow time for the niacin transition to optimize protection. I DID wait longer, but still perhaps not as long as I should have.

I needed 300mg for the flush, probably because, being a weekend, my liver load was a little higher, barbeque, beer and the like. Although I had waited about 6 hours
from last food, maybe 4 hours from last beer.

I took 100mg, nothing, then another 50mg every 10 minute until I got the desired flush. So from first niacin to adequate flush, about 1 hour, and then another 40 minute after peak.

I'm back to my old POIS free self!! Niacin is such a bumpy road. You have to take it "just so".

I have good hopes for niacinamide, if I can find it (and the L-methionine) in Chile. Really you wouldn't believe it. I have to import my niacin, because the salespeople are agast with
the fact that I want to take 100mg of niacin "all at once". When I ask for niacinamide they just look at me. So L-methionine... forget it.

If I have to import, I guess I have to import. It's just such a hassle!

Hey Dave,
Yeah I think that the b complex is good but some of the reactions it produces aren't helpful. If this is acetaldehyde poisoning then it would steal B1 (which we really need) but when it reacts with B1 it produces other substances which are toxic. So I think the trick is to get some supplementary b1 but not so much that it makes us sick while the niacinamide is helping clear the acetaldehyde problem.

B1 is not bad (we need it to make acetylcholine) but it's just not helpful in the large amounts found in most b complexes. Their ratio of niacinamide to b1 is just too low.

[kurtosis]

You mean L-methionine or SAM-e?

L-methionine. Some people can't make SAM-e effectively from L-methionine and benefit from taking SAM-e rather than L-methionine.
It's available in lots of health foods shops. I saw it in a pharmacist as well. L-methionine should be really cheap. SAM-e is more expensive.

I don't think you need much L-methionine if you're taking NADH. You'd need more if you're taking niacinamide as your liver will use the methionine to metabolise the niacinamide. So it depends whether you're going to take 10mg of NADH / day or take 250-500mg of niacinamide every day instead. Methionine is very useful if using slo-release niacinamide. I wouldn't take slo-niacin without methionine every 2nd day.

I know that I took one slow release niacin (500mg) and it left my liver straining for at least two days.

Yeah, I think you could probably break the tablet in 2 and take 250mg. The methionine should help break it down though.

If I can find the methionine, could I take like 250 mg slow release niacin per day with the methionine and not have to worry so much about whether I eat within 6 hrs. or not?

If so, something like that would be fantastic.

Or perhaps if I know I am going to "have sex" on Friday for instance, maybe start taking niacin slow release (250mg) once a day maybe starting Wednesday, building it up in my system, and countering the effects on the liver with the methionine?

What would a good regimen be to try that. Basically use niacin, but not have to worry about the strict rules for taking it.

BTW I just had (about 2 wks ago) a full general checkup and my liver tested great!.

The 250 mg / day and countering the effects with methionine sounds good. You don't need methionine more than twice a week. 500mg each time.
I believe that as you started to feel better (2 weeks or so) you could perhaps reintroduce some b complex, taken after niacinamide every 2nd day.
But that's getting ahead of ourselves. Let's see how things go on niacinamide and methionine.

[Daveman]

Although I mentioned niacinamide before, what I have on hand is slow release niacin capsules (500mg).

Swanson brand. Al though it doesn't say it, I assume that it is a slow release variety. The powder in the capsule tends to "gel up" if you put it directly in the mouth. My other normal niacin
is pungent and disolves very quickly.

I took the whole 500 of this Swanson brand and didn't have ANY effect for about 3 hrs. Then I had a fairly long flush like a couple of hours, although not heavy. And my liver was sensitive for a couple of days afterwards.

So can I substitued this at 250mg per day for the niacinamide? Or does it have to be niacinamide?

[kurtosis]

Although I mentioned niacinamide before, what I have on hand is slow release niacin capsules (500mg).

Swanson brand. Al though it doesn't say it, I assume that it is a slow release variety. The powder in the capsule tends to "gel up" if you put it directly in the mouth. My other normal niacin
is pungent and disolves very quickly.

I took the whole 500 of this Swanson brand and didn't have ANY effect for about 3 hrs. Then I had a fairly long flush like a couple of hours, although not heavy. And my liver was sensitive for a couple of days afterwards.

So can I substitued this at 250mg per day for the niacinamide? Or does it have to be niacinamide?

Good question. Niacinamide would be better. But you could start with 250mg of slo-niacin while you are waiting for the niacinamide to arrive.

[kurtosis]

More related stuff.
We had previously discussed prostaglandin's and their imbalance in POIS. Turns out that acetaldehyde affects delta-6-desaturase.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC293812/

Basically, (if I'm correct disclaimer) then one side effect of this is that we'd have reduced delta-6-desaturase activity which means
1) decreased ability to synthesis Gamma Linoleic Acid. This explains why spirulina or evening primrose oil may provide some relief from POIS (it did for me anyway) and
2) decreased prostaglandin E1 which it is believed may increase the risk of schizophrenia and increases PGE2 leading to more inflammation and allergies.

As we know, niacin promotes prostaglandin release. The flush may mitigate some PGE2 formation. Non-flush niacinamide wouldn't do this but it would tackle the underlying acetaldehyde problem better at higher dosages. There are few people who could stand the irritation of 500mg of flush niacin. It would save on heating gin the winter

I've been reading a text book about this this morning (finished most of my work very early). It seems that there are a few conditions with similar symptoms all caused by acetaldehyde buildup (and this is not even counting diseases that may be related like parkinsons).
- compromised immune system caused by chronic alcoholism
- comrpomised immune system caused by chronic yeast infection (very similar).
- compromised immune system caused by mutation to one or more ALDH genes.

The common denominator is the buildup of acetaldehyde.

The symptoms of all these can be very similar. All lead to inflammation, allergies, fatigue, concentration difficulties etc. The familiar list.

So here's where it gets interesting. If you have signs of a yeast infection it may be better to take large dosages of niacinamide (with methionine) for a few weeks rather than any other treatment. Niacinamide disrupts candida reproduction. Coconut oil kills it as does garlic. If you do have these symptoms then you would feel like crap for at least a week while the stuff was killed. I know we've done the candida discussion to death but, personally, I keep getting this nasty fungal infection. So I'm going to up my coconut oil dosage and add a week or two to my evaluation period for NADH.

If this treatment made you feel tired, led to some breakouts, itchiness etc. That's actually a good thing. That would be your body's way of telling you it was working.

If you don't have these signs (mouth ulcers, skin itch, fungal infections on nails genitals etc.) then you could still have an ALDH problem but the cause could be genetic.

Anyway, I thought I'd share this idea and get back to doing productive work

[Nightingale]

Re. 4, This would explain why wellbutrin works intermittently for you. The presence of dopamine metabolites that are uncleared in neurons would reduce those neurone's ability to use dopamine. Wellbutrin would increase the amount of circulating dopamine and would stimulate more dopaminergic neurons into functioning. However, that would just increase the amount of uncleared DOPAL in the brain as a whole and make you sick every few days.
As you know, DOPAL clears to DOPAC.

So there seems to be a clue here as to why I may not be tolerating Wellbutrin at all...  I can tell you even 3 days after stopping Wellbutrin I have felt pretty crappy.  It's gotten better, especially after having some exercise and then resting.

I will be asking my doc about Ritalin and those tests you mentioned, but I will also run this developing theory by him and see if he is up on this stuff.  I bought some NADH and took some yesterday, but I still felt crappy.  I will just wait til I get back to my baseline so I give it a good evaluation.

I can buy all the other things you mentioned kurtosis, but if I do have NADH, I don't have to take all of them if I understand you correctly right?

Why are you taking Ritalin BTW?
I don't think taking Ritalin and NADH together is a great idea. Although I expect that it extends the high from Ritalin.

I've tried Ritalin and, while it does make me hyperfocussed, I feel manic after a week or so. Tetchy, arrogant etc. with what can only be described as a mother of a hangover on some days.
That fits with this theory too. DOPAL buildup in a brain being forced to artificially produce more neurotransmitters beyond its ability to clear their metabolites.
When I tried it first I thought it was the POIS cure and that POIS was ADHD (maybe they are but I still wouldn't take speed to cure it) and I think the dopamine boost it gives just masks another problem. Then there's the side effects of coming off it.

Guess I'm full of controversial views, haha

Well I am struggling in school right now because of my attention/concentration isssues, and I havn't tried Ritalin before.  It could cause mania or some of the issues i've already had with meds that increase dopamine, but if it works for me on a situational basis, I think it could be a usefull tool.

I was just thinking about prostaglandin and it's connection to this discussion today, interesting to see there is one!

And on the issue of fungal infections:  I have had a rash on one side of my scrotum/thigh for about 2 years ever since I left a hospital.  I figured I had caught something from there, but had no luck getting it to go away with just washing.  I used antifungal powder and it didn't help at all.  I've been using Hibiclens, an "antiseptic antimicrobial skin cleanser possessing bactericidal properties" to clean down there as well as Gold Bond powder to keep thigns dry, and it has improved a lot.  BUT it still hasn't gone away!  After thinking I'd gotten rid of it, a week later it's back... my doc told me it was some typical bacterial colony living in the folds of my skin, so not sure I should get too excited it was a fungal reaction XD

[caveeater]

Has anyone tried Tyrosine? Any positive results?

[Nightingale]

Just saw this article in my inbox today: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/772516?src=nl_topic

Apparently a big study was just released that had some significant conclusions about dopamine function that change the way scientists see and treat schizophrenia

"Dopamine and Schizophrenia: Not as Simple as We Once Thought"

Howe and colleagues concluded that the dopaminergic abnormality in schizophrenia is largely presynaptic, which affects dopamine synthesis capacity, baseline synaptic dopamine levels, and dopamine release. They commented that current drug treatments, which primarily act at D(2/3) receptors, fail to target these abnormalities. Future drug development should focus on the control of presynaptic dopamine synthesis and release capacity. The investigators make no mention of a property of second-generation antipsychotics -- that of serotonin 5-HT2A receptor antagonism at the presynaptic neuron, which promotes the release of dopamine. They believe that glutamatergic dysfunction is a potential explanation for what can be driving the presynaptic dopamine alterations, a possibility that should be encouraging to the scientists who are developing drugs that affect glutamate receptor function in the treatment of schizophrenia.

The dopamine synthesis discussion is particularly interesting.  kurtosis, what do you think?  I can't access the actual paper, but the abstract is rather fascinating

[kurtosis]

Just saw this article in my inbox today: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/772516?src=nl_topic

Apparently a big study was just released that had some significant conclusions about dopamine function that change the way scientists see and treat schizophrenia

"Dopamine and Schizophrenia: Not as Simple as We Once Thought"

Howe and colleagues concluded that the dopaminergic abnormality in schizophrenia is largely presynaptic, which affects dopamine synthesis capacity, baseline synaptic dopamine levels, and dopamine release. They commented that current drug treatments, which primarily act at D(2/3) receptors, fail to target these abnormalities. Future drug development should focus on the control of presynaptic dopamine synthesis and release capacity. The investigators make no mention of a property of second-generation antipsychotics -- that of serotonin 5-HT2A receptor antagonism at the presynaptic neuron, which promotes the release of dopamine. They believe that glutamatergic dysfunction is a potential explanation for what can be driving the presynaptic dopamine alterations, a possibility that should be encouraging to the scientists who are developing drugs that affect glutamate receptor function in the treatment of schizophrenia.

The dopamine synthesis discussion is particularly interesting.  kurtosis, what do you think?  I can't access the actual paper, but the abstract is rather fascinating

It looks fascinating. I'll have to pick up the paper tomorrow but thanks for the link.

[kurtosis]

Ya know, garlic is a really powerful anti-fungal, anti mycoplasmic (similar thing) & anti-bacterial.
However, the bigger the infection, the worse you feel when you take a lot of garlic.

Another thing about garlic. If you take NADH then don't take garlic or any acid on top of it. Taking an NADH tablet and an enteric coated tablet with any kind of acid within 2 hours just wastes the NADH. There's ALA (an acid) in the now b complex so the same thing applies. You shouldn't take the Now B complex on top of the NADH. Later in the day perhaps.

[demografx]

Very interesting history of posts about garlic and POIS - especially by John21:
https://www.google.com/search?q=garlic+pois+site:http://thenakedscientists.com&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

[kurtosis]

Very interesting history of posts about garlic and POIS - especially by John21:
https://www.google.com/search?q=garlic+pois+site:http://thenakedscientists.com&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

I'm currently taking it with nystatin and niacinamide+methionine. Whether POIS is related to my persistent fungal infection or not (you know my theory) I need to clear the infection so I'm doing that.

Garlic is an astonishingly powerful agent for killing parasites and other infections in your body but the smell... I'm out of the office this week so it seemed like the best time to try this.

The feeling is odd. I have a bad headache and feel fatigued. It's part POIS and part hangover and the only difference is the nystatin and garlic. The symptoms are less today than they were earlier in the week so I'll continue with this until the treatment has run it's course at the end of next week when I report back to my doctor.

Birkmayer's studies show that NADH can boost the immune system so perhaps it by itself is capable of fighting off a nasty infection but I'm not taking that chance right now. Also, there's no point in chucking down NADH after a lot of garlic as it increases stomach acid and effectively destroys the NADH. You'd have to take the NADH in the morning and garlic at night. I'm sure my girlfriend would be very impressed.

In that respect, taking garlic would definitely cure POIS

[Jon]

Kurtosis,

I also have a fungal infection. It is in my right heel. Before it spread I had noticed bumps in my feet. These bumps were uncomfortable to walk on and would drain only by puncturing them with a sharp object. I don't know if its related, but almost since my POIS started I have had an odd type of acne.. or at least I thought it was acne. These tiny pockets and bumps (not pimples or anything, not too noticeable) that have white puss in them.

Regardless, the doctor I saw believes that my heel has a fungal infection so its funny that you mentioned it.

[Nightingale]

There's ALA (an acid) in the now b complex so the same thing applies. You shouldn't take the Now B complex on top of the NADH. Later in the day perhaps.

Doh.  Been doing that.  I didn't realize you were still taking naicinimide and methinone in addition to NADH, sounded liked you didn't need to if you were taking NADH.  No issue for me though, I can start taking all of that.

I'm concerned about my rash, so I think I will go for the garlic treatment.  Seeing my primary care doc soon, will ask him about nystatin.  How about we organize this discussion into it's own "Fungal infection" thread?  It will help new people better find information

[Daveman]

They say that thyme is real good for fungus infections, and isn't as smelly as garlic.

[kurtosis]

There's ALA (an acid) in the now b complex so the same thing applies. You shouldn't take the Now B complex on top of the NADH. Later in the day perhaps.

Doh.  Been doing that.  I didn't realize you were still taking naicinimide and methinone in addition to NADH, sounded liked you didn't need to if you were taking NADH.  No issue for me though, I can start taking all of that.

I'm concerned about my rash, so I think I will go for the garlic treatment.  Seeing my primary care doc soon, will ask him about nystatin.  How about we organize this discussion into it's own "Fungal infection" thread?  It will help new people better find information

No, I stopped taking the NADH as there's almost no point in taking it when you're taking garlic. Mega-dose of niacinamide will give the body NAD and at least some of it will survive the garlic bath in my stomach The garlic increases stomach acidity which burns up the NADH before it gets to the intestines. Indeed, if you take enough garlic you'll smell of it, your urine and excrement will smell of it and while that's apparently great at killing parasites, fungus, l-form bacteria and mycoplasmas (the latter are similar - no cell walls), it's also wasting those expensive NADH tablets by effectively burning it up. I'm also taking nystatin. I don't know what affect that has on NADH and I'm not going to find out.

My doctor says I have a fungal infection. Well, duh, I knew that!  So I'm taking a break from the NADH. However, the research on NADH suggest it can improve immune function just taken by itself so as soon as I don't have this visible infection & I've finished the course of nystatin and garlic, I'll start to take it again. Where I live NADH costs rough $1/5mg so burning up $2 a day is a bad idea I hope this clarifies things.

[kurtosis]

Kurtosis,

I also have a fungal infection. It is in my right heel. Before it spread I had noticed bumps in my feet. These bumps were uncomfortable to walk on and would drain only by puncturing them with a sharp object. I don't know if its related, but almost since my POIS started I have had an odd type of acne.. or at least I thought it was acne. These tiny pockets and bumps (not pimples or anything, not too noticeable) that have white puss in them.

Regardless, the doctor I saw believes that my heel has a fungal infection so its funny that you mentioned it.

That is interesting. I've had my doctor prescribe me anti-fungals before to clear up a fungal rash on my back, yeast infection on my genitals and a fungal nail infection. I've been treated 4 times in 3 years. The previous time I took diflucan and nystatin. Now I'm combining garlic and nystatin. I have some neem too but I've only taken it once.

Up until this point the fungal infections keep coming back, even after I bought several new sets of underclothes and used nizoral on the external infections.   So if you're getting your doctor to treat it I'd ask them if there are any tests to see if you have fungal infections in your gut and what kind, dose and duration of anti-fungals they'd prescribe to treat  a larger infection.

I've read a few papers that say that niacinamide interferes with the reproductive capability of some fungal growths so I thought I'd try that at the same time seeing as it's also a source of NAD which is used by ALDH to remove acetaldehyde  from the body (including dopamine neurons). A vitamin that appears to have 2 benefits seemed too good not to take

There shouldn't be adverse reactions between NAD and NADH from what I've read so if someone wanted to supplement extra niacinamide or just niacin with NADH they could.

I realise this is as much about fungus and dopamine now so perhaps we need a new thread

[Daveman]

I have problems with the feet, but who doesn't!!

During POIS even when the niacin is working, I get tremendous itching in the groin area and anus. It is a deep and intense itch, that normally doesn't bother unless something interferes with the area. And then it is VERY intense. In about 5 days, it goes away.

The best treatments have been more corticoid based than antimicotic based. Along with this comes swelling in the area of the genital plumbing. The swelling seems to be reduced some with the niacin.

[kurtosis]

I have problems with the feet, but who doesn't!!

During POIS even when the niacin is working, I get tremendous itching in the groin area and anus. It is a deep and intense itch, that normally doesn't bother unless something interferes with the area. And then it is VERY intense. In about 5 days, it goes away.

The best treatments have been more corticoid based than antimicotic based. Along with this comes swelling in the area of the genital plumbing. The swelling seems to be reduced some with the niacin.

I get the butt itch too. Seeing as we're all sharing.
So if POIS sufferers all met up we'd recognise each other as the people scratching our butts and groin area

The itch is greatly reduced while taking garlic and nystatin. I've traded it for a week long headache. I've found that coconut oil works on the jock itch. I'd recommend garlic but fresh garlic causes blistering on skin so applying it to the groin is probably a very bad idea.

[haidcat]

Really interesting stuff, my dandruff gets really really bad during POIS episodes, which is related to fungus. I recently got diagnosed with a heart arrythmia and POTS, so I am currently pursuing that course, to see if it treats this POIS. But if not, it seems this fingus thing might mean something in the big scheme of things