Dopamine

[Daveman]

I don't know how you do it Kurtosis, but I'm glad that there's someone who can.

This suggestion for B_Daniel sounds a lot more comfortable than the disulfram test...
"All I'm suggesting is niacinamide, methionine and not drinking alcohol for a while to see if it reduces POIS."

And if I understood it right, should produce the "same" diagnostic results albeit from another angle.

These are the things that we need, every day, a step closer and giving real life to theories.

[Stef]

I don't know how you do it Kurtosis, but I'm glad that there's someone who can.

This suggestion for B_Daniel sounds a lot more comfortable than the disulfram test...
"All I'm suggesting is niacinamide, methionine and not drinking alcohol for a while to see if it reduces POIS."

And if I understood it right, should produce the "same" diagnostic results albeit from another angle.

These are the things that we need, every day, a step closer and giving real life to theories.

Dave --

I'm with you about kurtosis. I don't know how he does it either -- and so calmly and matter-of-factually!

If I take notes while reading kurtosis' posts, while simultaneously searching Google for definitions, then drawing arrows to try to connect the dots -- I think I get some of it.

But the best thing of all about kurtosis, IMHO, is how kind and considerate he always is, while being uber and authentically SMART! :-)

Stef

[kurtosis]

I don't know how you do it Kurtosis, but I'm glad that there's someone who can.

This suggestion for B_Daniel sounds a lot more comfortable than the disulfram test...
"All I'm suggesting is niacinamide, methionine and not drinking alcohol for a while to see if it reduces POIS."

And if I understood it right, should produce the "same" diagnostic results albeit from another angle.

These are the things that we need, every day, a step closer and giving real life to theories.

I believe so Dave. One is the "try to cure it" approach and the other is the "confirm by making it worse" approach. What would worry me is the amount of times "toxic" is mentioned in the research paper at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15019299
The one I linked in response to B_Daniel.

There are some other problems also. 1 is that in any cognitive illness you can't rule out a good or bad placebo effect.
I read some piracetam research papers where the incidence of complaints about side effects was double for the placebo takers than the piracetam takers. It's kinda funny but when you tell someone they're going to take some kind of drug they go nuts and start anticipating negative side effects.
So anyone taking disulfiram to try and make you worse may need a few days to confirm it wasn't working and because of the nature of that drug, when it works you feel awful. Like a really bad hangover according to comments on forums. Alcoholics have support forms too. They make interesting reading.

So all I'm saying is that there might be a modification to the normal POIS treatment.
- Don't take any supplemental vitamin b1 or vitamin A. Look at your diet to check you're not eating foods high in betacarotene.
- Don't drink alcohol.
- New offices contain much more acetaldehyde (and acetate) than older ones. this is a byproduct of the manufacturing process for lots of things in your house. So try to get out for walks.
- Take some vitamin D or get some exposure to the sun.
- If you smoke then try to reduce it. I'm sure your doctor has told you this a hundred times and they were right
- Take b3 every day. niacinamide may be best to avoid daily itching (there are other reasons). Also, it may help with the cravings if you've cut down smoking to take niacinamide every day. The idea is that the problem behind POIS would exist in our bodies every day and we'd need supplementary b3 to assist us.
If you can afford it then skip the niacin and try 10mg of NADH every day. I can afford it so I'm going to continue with 10mg of ENADA NADH every day.
(Note, the ENADA stuff is coated such that it is absorbed in your colon, otherwise it's just burned in your stomach acid and it would be of no benefit).

- take methionine every 2nd day to help deal with load on the liver of excess niacinamide.

- take b6 and b12 for similar reasons. The problem here is that they're sold in huge % of the RDA outside of b complexes. Perhaps it might be an idea to find a b complex with a very modest amount of b1 and hope the daily niacinamide reduces the amount of acetaldehyde it could bind with. 
Also, b6 can be converted to niacin when the body needs it because there's an extra acetaldehyde load.
- Eat some fruit with a high anti-oxidant profile. Blueberries are really good.

So here's something interesting. DOPAL gets converted to DOPAC and this DOPAC stuff isn't as harmful BUT it may still make you feel unwell and needs to be excreted. Coffee is interesting in both containing acetaldehyde (the compound in DOPAL) and helping flush out acetate (DOPAC). Perhaps a mildly caffeinated diuretic like tea could be useful if this treatment makes you feel sicker in the early days. Either way, I've been drinking a blueberry tea and taking the NADH and I haven't had to urinate this much in years.

I realise that I'm describing a "detox" treatment with added niacinamide and methionine. It's making me uncomfortable too as these are often advocated by people who run a mile from a scientific explanation but what can I do

[kurtosis]

I don't know how you do it Kurtosis, but I'm glad that there's someone who can.

This suggestion for B_Daniel sounds a lot more comfortable than the disulfram test...
"All I'm suggesting is niacinamide, methionine and not drinking alcohol for a while to see if it reduces POIS."

And if I understood it right, should produce the "same" diagnostic results albeit from another angle.

These are the things that we need, every day, a step closer and giving real life to theories.

Dave --

I'm with you about kurtosis. I don't know how he does it either -- and so calmly and matter-of-factually!

If I take notes while reading kurtosis' posts, while simultaneously searching Google for definitions, then drawing arrows to try to connect the dots -- I think I get some of it.

But the best thing of all about kurtosis, IMHO, is how kind and considerate he always is, while being uber and authentically SMART! :-)

Stef

That's a very nice thing to say Stef.
My job is to research stuff so I've learned a methodology and I"m just applying that to POIS. I'm also used to reading papers with a range of complexity and background material I have to learn. So I don't find it too shocking to read about a neuroscience paper. I tend to take a lot of notes but my handwriting is so bad that it's unlikely anyone else would be able to read it

[Daveman]

Where would one look to get methionine (other than on-line). A regular pharmacy, what dosage level?

I'll have to see if I can even find niacinamide.... here in Chile you just get blank looks!

[Starsky]

You mean L-methionine or SAM-e?

[Daveman]

You mean L-methionine or SAM-e?

Good question!

[poisioq]

- take b6 and b12 for similar reasons. The problem here is that they're sold in huge % of the RDA outside of b complexes. Perhaps it might be an idea to find a b complex with a very modest amount of b1 and hope the daily niacinamide reduces the amount of acetaldehyde it could bind with. 

what if we split b6 and b12 tablets high in % of the RDA in smaller pieces? what do you think?

[kurtosis]

You mean L-methionine or SAM-e?

L-methionine. Some people can't make SAM-e effectively from L-methionine and benefit from taking SAM-e rather than L-methionine.
It's available in lots of health foods shops. I saw it in a pharmacist as well. L-methionine should be really cheap. SAM-e is more expensive.

I don't think you need much L-methionine if you're taking NADH. You'd need more if you're taking niacinamide as your liver will use the methionine to metabolise the niacinamide. So it depends whether you're going to take 10mg of NADH / day or take 250-500mg of niacinamide every day instead. Methionine is very useful if using slo-release niacinamide. I wouldn't take slo-niacin without methionine every 2nd day.

[kurtosis]

- take b6 and b12 for similar reasons. The problem here is that they're sold in huge % of the RDA outside of b complexes. Perhaps it might be an idea to find a b complex with a very modest amount of b1 and hope the daily niacinamide reduces the amount of acetaldehyde it could bind with. 

what if we split b6 and b12 tablets high in % of the RDA in smaller pieces? what do you think?

Sounds fine but it does somewhat depend on the coating of the tablet. Some of these are enteric coated. What that means is that they have a coating which is dissolved by a certain amount of acid such that the drug company can control, on average, where in the digestive system the tablet is broken down. Breaking the tablet breaks the coating, obviously.

I don't think it's a problem for either b6 or b12 but, as a general principle, you can't always break tablets up to get the same effect

[kurtosis]

Where would one look to get methionine (other than on-line). A regular pharmacy, what dosage level?

I'll have to see if I can even find niacinamide.... here in Chile you just get blank looks!

No niacinamide? You're kidding me. Even in Ireland with it's crap load of regulations about anything that might actually work you can get niacinamide and methionine in 5 different stores within 10 minutes of my house.

Another great thing about niacinamide. If any of us do thing we have an overrun of fungus in our digestive system (candida, I'm not convinced but it does build up alcohol & acetaldehyde in people with a properly diagnosed infection...) then niacinamide is great for killing the stuff
Either way, niacinamide and methionine should be really cheap.

[Daveman]

You mean L-methionine or SAM-e?

L-methionine. Some people can't make SAM-e effectively from L-methionine and benefit from taking SAM-e rather than L-methionine.
It's available in lots of health foods shops. I saw it in a pharmacist as well. L-methionine should be really cheap. SAM-e is more expensive.

I don't think you need much L-methionine if you're taking NADH. You'd need more if you're taking niacinamide as your liver will use the methionine to metabolise the niacinamide. So it depends whether you're going to take 10mg of NADH / day or take 250-500mg of niacinamide every day instead. Methionine is very useful if using slo-release niacinamide. I wouldn't take slo-niacin without methionine every 2nd day.

I know that I took one slow release niacin (500mg) and it left my liver straining for at least two days.

[kurtosis]

You mean L-methionine or SAM-e?

L-methionine. Some people can't make SAM-e effectively from L-methionine and benefit from taking SAM-e rather than L-methionine.
It's available in lots of health foods shops. I saw it in a pharmacist as well. L-methionine should be really cheap. SAM-e is more expensive.

I don't think you need much L-methionine if you're taking NADH. You'd need more if you're taking niacinamide as your liver will use the methionine to metabolise the niacinamide. So it depends whether you're going to take 10mg of NADH / day or take 250-500mg of niacinamide every day instead. Methionine is very useful if using slo-release niacinamide. I wouldn't take slo-niacin without methionine every 2nd day.

I know that I took one slow release niacin (500mg) and it left my liver straining for at least two days.

Yeah, I think you could probably break the tablet in 2 and take 250mg. The methionine should help break it down though.

[Nightingale]

Re. 4, This would explain why wellbutrin works intermittently for you. The presence of dopamine metabolites that are uncleared in neurons would reduce those neurone's ability to use dopamine. Wellbutrin would increase the amount of circulating dopamine and would stimulate more dopaminergic neurons into functioning. However, that would just increase the amount of uncleared DOPAL in the brain as a whole and make you sick every few days.
As you know, DOPAL clears to DOPAC.

So there seems to be a clue here as to why I may not be tolerating Wellbutrin at all...  I can tell you even 3 days after stopping Wellbutrin I have felt pretty crappy.  It's gotten better, especially after having some exercise and then resting.

I will be asking my doc about Ritalin and those tests you mentioned, but I will also run this developing theory by him and see if he is up on this stuff.  I bought some NADH and took some yesterday, but I still felt crappy.  I will just wait til I get back to my baseline so I give it a good evaluation.

I can buy all the other things you mentioned kurtosis, but if I do have NADH, I don't have to take all of them if I understand you correctly right?

[kurtosis]

Yes that's the theory. But ideally it would be good to compare 10mg of NADH versus niacinamide and methionine.

It's worth taking some methionine twice a week with NADH. Initially anyway.  If you're taking niacinamide you'd need it more often.

Re. consuming NADH. The studies on parkinsons that I've read involved dosages of at least 10mg / day given for at least 2 weeks.
Do's and don't with NADH.
- Do take it first thing in the morning on an empty stomach.
- Do take 10 mg every day. I bought the 10mg tablets.
- Don't expect it to work like an amphetamine and magic away POIS instantly.

It is non-toxic. It can't hurt you. The worst it can do is help repair the cells in your body. The function of NADH in increasing cellular energy isn't in dispute. It's been shown to increase dopamine while improving clearance of metabolites in studies.

I gave 5mg to my girlfriend and she found it gave her huge energy. If someone is ill, they're not going to get 100% of its effectiveness for cell energy without taking it for a while.  I've felt a bit more energy from it with each day but it's subtle. It's improving clarity of thought and stamina but it's not a big rush and there's no flush. It's not like niacin where you basically start to glow and think "wow that's working"

If by feeling crappy, you mean depressed.. Well the studies applying NADH to depression went on for longer than the parkinsons studies. They went on for several weeks. The treatment of chronic fatigue syndrome study went on for 12 weeks with about 3/4 of patients reporting improvement.

However, you're taking a lot of medication and I have no idea about interactions or whether it would even be possible to evaluate whether NADH is or isn't working given other medications. 

[Nightingale]

If by feeling crappy, you mean depressed.. Well the studies applying NADH to depression went on for longer than the parkinsons studies. They went on for several weeks. The treatment of chronic fatigue syndrome study went on for 12 weeks with about 3/4 of patients reporting improvement.

However, you're taking a lot of medication and I have no idea about interactions or whether it would even be possible to evaluate whether NADH is or isn't working given other medications. 

Well I'm on board.  I don't see harm in trying, and I'll be sure to find out if my doc sees it the same way.

[kurtosis]

If by feeling crappy, you mean depressed.. Well the studies applying NADH to depression went on for longer than the parkinsons studies. They went on for several weeks. The treatment of chronic fatigue syndrome study went on for 12 weeks with about 3/4 of patients reporting improvement.

However, you're taking a lot of medication and I have no idea about interactions or whether it would even be possible to evaluate whether NADH is or isn't working given other medications. 

Well I'm on board.  I don't see harm in trying, and I'll be sure to find out if my doc sees it the same way.

According to the Birkmayer institute (founded by the father of George Birkmayer) they have treated many parkinson's patients with early forms of NADH therapy such that they could give up supplementary dopamine and other medications. Actually, they had to lower the NADH dosage in many cases it was proving too effective and stimulating. That's the odd thing about this stuff. It starts off very gently but builds over time.
At least that's if you have POIS it seems. Apparently it's approved for use as an anti-jetlag medication in the US. A lot less side effects than something like Modafinil.

On my 4th day of taking it (yesterday) I became really warm and energetic. I lay awake for hours last night but not in an anxious state. I read for 3 hours straight and felt really engaged. I was relaxed and pleasantly warm. Like a sustained but more controlled niacin flush. It feels good to be honest. I've found I need to sleep a bit, like when you're a teenager and you sleep late as your body grows and repairs. When I wake up I feel more energetic.

Haven't taken methionine since Saturday day. I'll probably try some more tomorrow. If I was taking slo-release niacinamide I'd need it.
I got the same effects from only 1 dose of piracetam yesterday (1200mg). It's becoming more effective. I saw someone mention on a nootropic forum that the 2 drugs (well 1 drug and 1 coenzyme) were synergistic. I'll see how this progresses over the week. So far so good.

[Daveman]

Perhaps this is the best place for the following:

My last two sessions were pretty IFy. I only had about 30% reduction of POIS.

My principal form of treatment is Niacin. But in these last two sessions, I had been trying the B-Complex daily during the week, and then Niacin before orgasm as always.
I feel good taking the B-Complex. It makes me feel "healthier", and I think it helps to "wash out some of the crap" in my system. I pee more etc. Also, my orgasms
are stronger and I have greater "staying power". BUT my POIS is worse!! The cognitive relief is still there, but the inflamation is much worse.

Last night I wanted to try an experiment. Unfortunately, to be honest, it was directed at two goals, so I can't be sure which has help the most.

I had gone more than a week without the B-Complex, and just wanted to try niacin by itself again, becasue both time with B-Complex made my POIS worse. I also wanted to wait longer after the flush for the orgasm, which would hopefully allow time for the niacin transition to optimize protection. I DID wait longer, but still perhaps not as long as I should have.

I needed 300mg for the flush, probably because, being a weekend, my liver load was a little higher, barbeque, beer and the like. Although I had waited about 6 hours
from last food, maybe 4 hours from last beer.

I took 100mg, nothing, then another 50mg every 10 minute until I got the desired flush. So from first niacin to adequate flush, about 1 hour, and then another 40 minute after peak.

I'm back to my old POIS free self!! Niacin is such a bumpy road. You have to take it "just so".

I have good hopes for niacinamide, if I can find it (and the L-methionine) in Chile. Really you wouldn't believe it. I have to import my niacin, because the salespeople are agast with
the fact that I want to take 100mg of niacin "all at once". When I ask for niacinamide they just look at me. So L-methionine... forget it.

If I have to import, I guess I have to import. It's just such a hassle!

[kurtosis]

Re. 4, This would explain why wellbutrin works intermittently for you. The presence of dopamine metabolites that are uncleared in neurons would reduce those neurone's ability to use dopamine. Wellbutrin would increase the amount of circulating dopamine and would stimulate more dopaminergic neurons into functioning. However, that would just increase the amount of uncleared DOPAL in the brain as a whole and make you sick every few days.
As you know, DOPAL clears to DOPAC.

So there seems to be a clue here as to why I may not be tolerating Wellbutrin at all...  I can tell you even 3 days after stopping Wellbutrin I have felt pretty crappy.  It's gotten better, especially after having some exercise and then resting.

I will be asking my doc about Ritalin and those tests you mentioned, but I will also run this developing theory by him and see if he is up on this stuff.  I bought some NADH and took some yesterday, but I still felt crappy.  I will just wait til I get back to my baseline so I give it a good evaluation.

I can buy all the other things you mentioned kurtosis, but if I do have NADH, I don't have to take all of them if I understand you correctly right?

Why are you taking Ritalin BTW?
I don't think taking Ritalin and NADH together is a great idea. Although I expect that it extends the high from Ritalin.

I've tried Ritalin and, while it does make me hyperfocussed, I feel manic after a week or so. Tetchy, arrogant etc. with what can only be described as a mother of a hangover on some days.
That fits with this theory too. DOPAL buildup in a brain being forced to artificially produce more neurotransmitters beyond its ability to clear their metabolites.
When I tried it first I thought it was the POIS cure and that POIS was ADHD (maybe they are but I still wouldn't take speed to cure it) and I think the dopamine boost it gives just masks another problem. Then there's the side effects of coming off it.

Guess I'm full of controversial views, haha

[Daveman]

You mean L-methionine or SAM-e?

L-methionine. Some people can't make SAM-e effectively from L-methionine and benefit from taking SAM-e rather than L-methionine.
It's available in lots of health foods shops. I saw it in a pharmacist as well. L-methionine should be really cheap. SAM-e is more expensive.

I don't think you need much L-methionine if you're taking NADH. You'd need more if you're taking niacinamide as your liver will use the methionine to metabolise the niacinamide. So it depends whether you're going to take 10mg of NADH / day or take 250-500mg of niacinamide every day instead. Methionine is very useful if using slo-release niacinamide. I wouldn't take slo-niacin without methionine every 2nd day.

I know that I took one slow release niacin (500mg) and it left my liver straining for at least two days.

Yeah, I think you could probably break the tablet in 2 and take 250mg. The methionine should help break it down though.

If I can find the methionine, could I take like 250 mg slow release niacin per day with the methionine and not have to worry so much about whether I eat within 6 hrs. or not?

If so, something like that would be fantastic.

Or perhaps if I know I am going to "have sex" on Friday for instance, maybe start taking niacin slow release (250mg) once a day maybe starting Wednesday, building it up in my system, and countering the effects on the liver with the methionine?

What would a good regimen be to try that. Basically use niacin, but not have to worry about the strict rules for taking it.

BTW I just had (about 2 wks ago) a full general checkup and my liver tested great!.