Author Topic: Alcohol and POIS  (Read 22507 times)

erik

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2016, 06:34:46 PM »
Hi Joe,
great to hear we have almost the same experience.
For me 2 or 3 glasses of wine does the trick. I dont need to get drunk, a bit tipsy works also well, and the next day starts with no symptoms.
Which is a big difference, cause if i don't have alcohol, the day starts with all those devastating pois symptoms.
Only after a few hours the pois tries to come in, try to fight it with quercetine, 5 htp, or grapefruit. But untill now no total succes of preventing it.
Although in the evening it eases and next day mostly no more symptoms.

Hi Erik. Even for me even a couple of drinks is enough to reduce POIS significantly and I become POIS free when slightly drunk. Need to see the mechanism behind that. I know that dopamine increases and there may be some other chemical changes which bring this reaction.

Hi Joe,
I try to do some research as well and if I understand well in this situation with no POIS because of the alcohol, I suppose GABA is the brake pedal, and alcohol is the feet on the brake pedal, preventing the POIS from hitting in.
I don't know if it is alcohol that creates directly extra dopamine, I believe this is only a next step of the GABA-alcohol process.
I don't know if there is something similar working like alcohol on the GABA, perhaps there are other drugs, but I'm afraid they won't be more healthy than alcohol.



b_jim

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2016, 02:31:57 AM »
It's significative when several guys answer "Same".  :)

I've never been "drunk" during all my life but I'm very sensible to alcohol and I have a poor resistance. I drink sometimes red wine (less than 1 glass).
The few times I drink more alcohol, I felt very very bad, depressive and I can't sleep.    Nothing comparable to Pois.

So if alcohol has a possible cure as side effect I couln't try it :)
But more seriously, if a lot of Pois sufferers say alcohol help to counter Pois symptoms it's a valuable information for e neurologist to explain Pois.

 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 02:38:35 AM by b_jim »
Taurine = Anti-Pois
Suffering from lyme disease

Quantum

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2016, 01:12:41 PM »
For those relieved by alcohol, what symptoms, exactly, are relieved?  Muscle ache, lack of energy?  What about cognitive symptoms?  It would be surprising that alcohol intoxication would help with brain fog and focus problems, or make you better at problem solving ;)

I would like to hear a bit more about that, in order to see what can be learned from this about POIS.  Because, personally, having a sluggish liver, it is out of question I could use alcohol in any way for POIS relief - I will feel lifeless and fall asleep before getting drunk, just like b_jim, and will take much time to recover, so this is no more desirable than having POIS.
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

less_fogged

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2016, 02:53:21 PM »
These days I don't drink alcohol as I have dedicated myself to feel as good as I can in just about anything I consider healthy. I had become tired and fed up of suffering. But I must say that going back a couple of years when not fully understanding our POIS label and was drinking alcohol every once in a while, rarely ever heavily though. I can remember times of feeling better when on alcohol. I very much remember how it was partly taking away the agony in my head. I was even "wondering" if I could ever consider drinking some alcohol while at work as it probably would make it easier sometimes to get through the day.  With the correct doses it even helps concentration during POIS (for me I can confirm). But obviously not easy if you'd use this in practise.  It probably would not take long before they'd fire you at work as soon as people would smell it on you. If it was now possible to have it monitored in your blood like being on a drip with a continuously monitored amount I guess it would work or more correctly saying it would help.

Naturally for just about anyone a mild doses will usually change you as a person being more happy and positive as long as you don't let yourself go completely drunk turning into another person obviously. Alcohol is after all a product that has a calming effect but magnesium also also has a calming effect.
 
I guess this would suggest that alcohol stimulates the vagus nerve!!!

Another thing: I have to admit similarly to b_jim, in my case if I drink late I believe it will interfere with my sleep at some stage throughout the night. Also I'd be better off with wine than beer as I am also one of those that does not tolerate wheat (allergy in my case).

demografx

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2016, 04:15:11 PM »
For those relieved by alcohol, what symptoms, exactly, are relieved?  Muscle ache, lack of energy?  What about cognitive symptoms?  It would be surprising that alcohol intoxication would help with brain fog and focus problems, or make you better at problem solving ;)

I would like to hear a bit more about that, in order to see what can be learned from this about POIS.  Because, personally, having a sluggish liver, it is out of question I could use alcohol in any way for POIS relief - I will feel lifeless and fall asleep before getting drunk, just like b_jim, and will take much time to recover, so this is no more desirable than having POIS.
I think alcohol can help some POISers -- but ONLY TEMPORARILY -- alleviate some POIS symptoms, such as the *anxiety* surrounding our being in an 'impoverished' state of mind, spirit, and body.

POOR SOLUTION IMHO:

Hangovers, addiction potential, liver/alcohol-processing, blackout drinking, DUI's, memory probs, etc., make this an undesirable option, I think.


« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 02:26:22 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2016, 09:47:03 PM »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2016, 01:08:57 AM »
Above graphic pulled off Internet, source unknown. Accurate? Joke? What do you think?
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

joelawerence

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2016, 05:05:06 AM »
For those relieved by alcohol, what symptoms, exactly, are relieved?  Muscle ache, lack of energy?  What about cognitive symptoms?  It would be surprising that alcohol intoxication would help with brain fog and focus problems, or make you better at problem solving ;)

I would like to hear a bit more about that, in order to see what can be learned from this about POIS.  Because, personally, having a sluggish liver, it is out of question I could use alcohol in any way for POIS relief - I will feel lifeless and fall asleep before getting drunk, just like b_jim, and will take much time to recover, so this is no more desirable than having POIS.

Hi Quantam,

For me I am almost 100% POIS free when I have alcohol. It relieves my body aches, fatigue, depression, anxiety, etc. I have not noticed about problem solving abilities but in general I am able to be more relaxed and thus think better. The congnitive improvement is ofcourse only if I have a couple of drinks only, if it?s more alcohol then you become like a normal drunk person.

As Demografx says, we should not use alcohol as a remedy as it is a temporary solution with other long term side effects involved. What we should instead do is investigate the mechanism by which alcohol alleviates POIS sysmptoms, that is what are the chemical and neurological changes involved when alcohol goes into our system.

One thing I can say is that in my last 9 years or so of POIS, it is only when I take some alcohol that I have felt 100% POIS free. I have tried Nicain, Fenugreek, etc. treatments to no avail. But that doesn?t mean I drink alcohol on a regular basis, infact I hardly drink once a month. But this is an area for us to investigate.
33 years old, POIS for around 12 years with increasing severity.
Major symptoms - Severe fatigue, back pain, unrefreshed even after 9+ hours sleep, pain behind eyes, very dry face, bald head with inflamed scalp, digestion issues and constipation. Very low testosterone and high glucose in blood tests

demografx

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2016, 02:28:55 PM »
Thank you, joelawerence!
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

less_fogged

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2016, 03:55:44 PM »
Alcohol usually also stops the workings of most meds you might be taking.

erik

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2016, 05:37:11 PM »
For those relieved by alcohol, what symptoms, exactly, are relieved?  Muscle ache, lack of energy?  What about cognitive symptoms?  It would be surprising that alcohol intoxication would help with brain fog and focus problems, or make you better at problem solving ;)

I would like to hear a bit more about that, in order to see what can be learned from this about POIS.  Because, personally, having a sluggish liver, it is out of question I could use alcohol in any way for POIS relief - I will feel lifeless and fall asleep before getting drunk, just like b_jim, and will take much time to recover, so this is no more desirable than having POIS.

Hello Quantum,
I only drink some alcohol about every 2 weeks, mostly about 2 till 3 glasses of red wine.
If i have an O. afterwards, the next morning when I wake up, i don?t feel foggy,  dont? feel mentally and fysically exhausted, don?t feel like the flu is there, and i don?t feel social phobia, irritated or depressed.

When I do not drink the wine I will have these symptoms.
With the wine I only feel a little bit drowsy,and am a little bit slow thinking, but this is total different than the fog with POIS.
I have the same drowsiness and slow thinking  with alcohol  when i don?t have an O.

Later in the day, mostly after lunch, i feel the above listed pois symptoms coming in and slowly take over my system, but it doesn?t hit me so hard as when i did not take the wine.
I take extra anti-oxidants  during this day.
The next day  I?m mostly always free of Pois-symptoms.

Just like Joe I?m also very interested in the mechanism behind this.
I?ve read something, and try to interpret it, but I?m no expert, so please correct me if im wrong.

Alcohol is among other things resulting that neurotransmitter Glutamate is blocked or less active.
So I have no symptoms  for about 12 till 14 hours after I drunk alcohol.
So is it possible to assume  that if I didn?t drink the alcohol and had an O, that the Glutamate levels perhaps would explode because of perhaps an allergic reaction on Orgasm. ?
And could this explosion of glutamate levels and this following inbalance  of neurotransmitters in the brain cause all those negative symptoms of POIS ?
Cause what I read, high Glutamate levels cause a lot of POIS problems,  like behavior change, emotional problems, headaches, additional production of free radicals.

It ?s only a hypothesis,  but have to start somewhere.

Quantum

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2016, 09:29:11 PM »

Just like Joe I?m also very interested in the mechanism behind this.
I?ve read something, and try to interpret it, but I?m no expert, so please correct me if im wrong.

Alcohol is among other things resulting that neurotransmitter Glutamate is blocked or less active.
So I have no symptoms  for about 12 till 14 hours after I drunk alcohol.
So is it possible to assume  that if I didn?t drink the alcohol and had an O, that the Glutamate levels perhaps would explode because of perhaps an allergic reaction on Orgasm. ?
And could this explosion of glutamate levels and this following inbalance  of neurotransmitters in the brain cause all those negative symptoms of POIS ?
Cause what I read, high Glutamate levels cause a lot of POIS problems,  like behavior change, emotional problems, headaches, additional production of free radicals.

It ?s only a hypothesis,  but have to start somewhere.

Thanks everyone for your answers about symptoms relieved by alcohol.  Obviously, like Demo, Joe and others have mentioned in this thread, alcohol is not recommended for POIS relief, but understanding why it brings relief would be of value.

Erik, I share your hypothesis about glutamate.  High level of glutamate or other substances that stimulates the NMDA receptors too much causes excitotoxicity ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitotoxicity ).  This pathological process kills and damages nervous brain cells, leading to all sorts of cognitive and emotional symptoms.  I personally think it is at play for many symptoms of POIS. In my hypothesis, the cognitive symptoms may come from kynurenic acid excitotoxicity, and emotional symptoms form quinolinic acid excitotoxicity  ( details at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1988.msg15559#msg15559 ).   

That is what lead me to use NMDA receptors blockers before release, to prevent this excitotoxicity. That, and the fact that magnesium was helping me against POIS, and was searching why, and thta it is a NMDA receptors blocker.  So now, the pre-pack of supplements I have been taking for almost a year to prevent POIS contains three different NMDA receptors blockers: 

Magnesium,
Lignan ( in the form of flax seed oil),
and L-theanine  ( that I take both in pure supplement form, or in green tea extract)   

With these and some other substances, I get 80% to 100% relief.  So, I do not know if this hypothesis is right, but using NMDAR blockers helps me.

As a matter of fact, alcohol is a NMDA receptors blocker. However, as I have said, I do not use it, and i am not interested to do so.

Other NMDAR blockers that I know of are: 
Taurine ( that I also use in low, 600mg doses ),
Zinc ( that I take as pumpkin seeds, because zinc itself is hard on my stomach), 
Acetyl-L-carnitine ( tried it, but was causing me stomach aches, so I stopped )
Huperzine A ( never tried)
Cat's claw ( never tried)
Ibuprofen ( I use it sometime)

In my experience, they are more efficient if taken before release.  I suppose, from your posts, that alcohol is effective when you have taken it before O ( Is that right?)

If any of you, in search of an alternative for alcohol as a source of relief for POIS, try any of the NMDAR blockers stated above before O, alone or in combination, at safe dosage of course, let me know of your results ( even if not conclusive).




« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 09:36:27 PM by Quantum »
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b_jim

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2016, 07:01:51 AM »
I'm not competent about glutamate receptors but some elements are very good :

Quote
Alcohol is among other things resulting that neurotransmitter Glutamate is blocked or less active.

Quote
Other NMDAR blockers that I know of are:
Taurine

I can find a scientific study showing this.

The long term effects of glutamate is not  really interresting for Pois (dispite it seems to be the next food scandal).
But there is phenomenon called Chinese restaurant syndrome and some symptoms are close to Pois.
Taurine = Anti-Pois
Suffering from lyme disease

Mr Raba

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2016, 06:05:32 PM »
Dear friends,

I have said this years before. I have realized that POIS and CFS are connected. The major difference is symptoms duration and O trigger. Otherwise symptoms, treatments, what makes things worse o better are almost identical.

Years after my saying this and being swiftly dismissed.  This forum is finding the slow and painful way the same things it took decades for CFS people to learn and discover. I believe POIS and CFS have the same underlying mechanism. I have both. But only because I stumbled into CFS on the web first. POIS did not exist on the web back in 1993! 

Now people find POIS and the label is put on. Perfect match. Search stops.

I believe that CFS and POIS are in the same disease spectrum. The answers to many questions asked here are already known and fully documented in CFS research. Like alcohol intolerance.

I think that in time POIS will be found to be a subset of CFS.


in CFS all these are involved:

Vagus nerve involvement
CNS imbalance
Macroglial cells involvement
Methylation involvement
Leaky gut and and abnormal microbine behavior.
Inability to read at times, or concentrate
Flu like symptoms
Sore throat
Headache
Night sweats
Excerciste intolerance
Hormonal axis imbalance
Immune and cytokine activation
Detox blocks
 Visual stress.
Low vit D
Borderline testosterone
Thyroid issues
Balance issues
Anxiety
Social anxiety
Word finding problems
Dysautonomia
Etc etc etc.


And the same supps work!  The list is too long to list. The match is almost incredible.

So please take a look and see for yourself. Lets not be so sure they are completely different diseases. They only differ on trigger and symptoms duration. Even the 2 to 5 day relapse is common. Some even months.


I have known several peolple that have both. Or actually relized they have CFS with O  trigget. As opposed to just CFS.
I even wonder if CFS in men is mostly found as POIS. Hence why men are underrepresented in CFS.



See this blog for starting to evaluate by yourself what the overlap is
We can  leverage a lot of this research and spend our limited research funds in light of what an almost identical, hugely overlapping condition has already found out.

http://www.cortjohnson.org/

Good health to us all!  😊😊👍🏽
Simultaneous onset of CFS and POIS since Feb 1993. Married since 1989.

Helped by Immunocal (I explained how to take in previous posts).  Some relief on day one and day two.  It affects neurotransmitters.

demografx

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2016, 06:56:56 PM »
mrraba, you may wish to start a new "POIS and CFS" thread?

Or add your post to an existing thread, such as "CFS parallels":
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2091.0

This particular thread is more related to "Alcohol & POIS".



« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 08:58:24 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

erik

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2016, 08:07:16 PM »
As a matter of fact, alcohol is a NMDA receptors blocker. However, as I have said, I do not use it, and i am not interested to do so.

Other NMDAR blockers that I know of are: 
Taurine ( that I also use in low, 600mg doses ),
Zinc ( that I take as pumpkin seeds, because zinc itself is hard on my stomach), 
Acetyl-L-carnitine ( tried it, but was causing me stomach aches, so I stopped )
Huperzine A ( never tried)
Cat's claw ( never tried)
Ibuprofen ( I use it sometime)

In my experience, they are more efficient if taken before release.  I suppose, from your posts, that alcohol is effective when you have taken it before O ( Is that right?)

If any of you, in search of an alternative for alcohol as a source of relief for POIS, try any of the NMDAR blockers stated above before O, alone or in combination, at safe dosage of course, let me know of your results ( even if not conclusive).
[/quote]


Thanks for your reaction Quantum,
Very interesting hypothesis you have, it?s complicated, but I think it brings me directly a few steps further.

In my case I think alcohol is only effective if taken before O. , and then only for this 12-14 hours.
Guess it is interesting to know what will happen if I take some alcohol just before this period of time,
if this will again postpone the POIS, but untill now I never tried.


Perhaps Oxaloacetate can also be interesting, to ease POIS symptoms.
It is not an NMDA receptor blocker, but this stuff reduces the glutamat in your blood circulation system, and this will then pump the high levels of glutamat of the brain into the low levelled glutamat blood circulation system.
I'm very interested if there are others which have experiences with it.


Quantum

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2016, 08:33:05 PM »
I'm not competent about glutamate receptors but some elements are very good :
Quote
Alcohol is among other things resulting that neurotransmitter Glutamate is blocked or less active.
Quote
Other NMDAR blockers that I know of are:
Taurine

I can find a scientific study showing this.

The long term effects of glutamate is not  really interresting for Pois (dispite it seems to be the next food scandal).
But there is phenomenon called Chinese restaurant syndrome and some symptoms are close to Pois.

Hi b_jim,

In case you meant that you "can't" find a scientific study about taurine being a NMDAR blocker, here's one:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23392923

About the excitotoxicity, I do no think it is caused, in POIS, by glutamate itself, but by other substances naturally present in the brain, like kynurenic acid and quinolinic acid, which are NMDAR agonists as well.  They are ok when in normal level, but become toxic when an inflammation reaction boost their production in the brain  ( this mechanism has been studied in depression and in some auto-immune disease - but not in POIS, needless to say ).
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Quantum

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2016, 09:10:22 PM »
Thanks for your reaction Quantum,
Very interesting hypothesis you have, it?s complicated, but I think it brings me directly a few steps further.

In my case I think alcohol is only effective if taken before O. , and then only for this 12-14 hours.
Guess it is interesting to know what will happen if I take some alcohol just before this period of time,
if this will again postpone the POIS, but untill now I never tried.


Perhaps Oxaloacetate can also be interesting, to ease POIS symptoms.
It is not an NMDA receptor blocker, but this stuff reduces the glutamat in your blood circulation system, and this will then pump the high levels of glutamat of the brain into the low levelled glutamat blood circulation system.
I'm very interested if there are others which have experiences with it.


Hi erik,

It is the first time I hear about oxaloacetate being helpful to reduce glutamate level in the brain, thanks for mentioning it.  I have found some more information about that at http://www.naturalhealthadvisory.com/daily/natural-health-101/3-ways-an-oxaloacetate-supplement-can-protect-you/ .  This article also says that acetylcysteine can also reduce glutamate levels ( but I have no idea if it is correct).  I have tried n-acetylcysteine for POIS, because it is a good antioxidant, but this is a sulfured compound, so here is the kind of antisocial results I had when I took some (as the third, pink, gentleman):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLP4QkflB-o   :) :)  So, never again!

However, like I wrote in my previous message, I do no think the excitotoxicity is caused, in POIS, by glutamate itself, but by other substances naturally present in the brain, like kynurenic acid and quinolinic acid, which are NMDAR agonists as well.  So, I have no idea if lowering the glutamate level would be effective in reducing the overall NMDAR stimulation level when other agonists are present in toxic levels.

In my current method, I use 3 NMDAR blockers  ( magnesium, flax seed oil and L-theanine/green tea) that help reduce the excitotoxicity in the brain by blocking the NMDA receptors, so whatever the agonist is, the receptor is blocked.  I also use IDO and TDO inhibitors, that prevent the production of the toxic metabolites I suppose are at play in the brain while in POIS.  The reasons I state are only a hypothesis, but however,  my pre-pack of supplements works for me, whatever the exact scientific reasons may be.

Thanks for you comment about my hypothesis.  Yes, I know, it's not simple.... but POIS isn't, and I have tried to see why, in particular, symptoms seem to be seperated in "famiies" or clusters, most members having symptoms in some of those clusters, and not in others ( a minority have symptoms in all four clusters I have defined, and usually, they are severe case of POIS ) .  This have all started by the fact that I have absolutely no cognitive symptoms, bot severe emotional symptoms, so I have searched for a hypothesis that would explain that.

You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Going less Crazy

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2016, 09:52:43 PM »
http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/binge-drinking-effects-your-immune-system-immediately

Think the effects on the immune system after some hours is why we feel good in the morning in a POIS state and bad right when we drink alcohol.
My POIS managed with Diet (@ diet that 100% manages my pois)Believe my POIS stems from inflammation in the gut. O = neuro POIS from inflammation from the gut

Current supps: 2.5 mg zyrtec nightly for food allergies, microdose astragalus daily, microdose cranberry vit c pill daily. Ibuprofen rarely.

erik

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Re: Alcohol and POIS
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2016, 05:38:51 PM »
In my current method, I use 3 NMDAR blockers  ( magnesium, flax seed oil and L-theanine/green tea) that help reduce the excitotoxicity in the brain by blocking the NMDA receptors, so whatever the agonist is, the receptor is blocked.  I also use IDO and TDO inhibitors, that prevent the production of the toxic metabolites I suppose are at play in the brain while in POIS.  The reasons I state are only a hypothesis, but however,  my pre-pack of supplements works for me, whatever the exact scientific reasons may be.
[/quote]


Hi Quantum,
I read about your pre-pack, I don't know if I interpret this article right.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17230642#
But could perhaps creatine among the other things mentioned in this article be interesting for use in the pre-pack ?