Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (P.O.I.S.)

POIS Life Style => Lifestyle Diary and POIS Summaries => Topic started by: Jon on September 09, 2012, 06:21:24 PM

Title: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Jon on September 09, 2012, 06:21:24 PM
Hey guys. I figured that this may be a good topic to start. Alcohol effects my POIS in different ways. Sometimes I can get a good buzz on and other times it makes me feel down and slow.

Sometimes the day after I drink, especially in the morning with the hangover, I feel neurologically and mentally improved. For example.. this past weekend I went out with some friends and drank quite a bit of brugal (Rum). The day after I was able to maintain good alertness and mood throughout the day. I did not experience speaking problems or confusion. This is not the first time that I have felt this the day after drinking, but I hadn't yet felt it to this extent.

Any ideas?

Best,

Jon.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: demografx on September 09, 2012, 08:50:48 PM
Hangovers often "hung over" me horribly - with a disproportionate reaction to the amount I drank.

2 beers could lead to a 3 - day "hangover" - SIMILAR to POIS - but not the same.

When we raise the Fund $ Goal, I am hoping that our future medical research will eventually investigate some of these possibly-POIS-related anomalies. In my case,

severe jet lag hangover (even in same time zone)

and

severe exercise hangover

Jet lag and normal exercise produce unusual symptoms (ALWAYS DAYS) that other people don't seem to have.

As a result of my successful POIS treatment, these bizarre extremes in jet lag and exercise are reduced. Not "cured".
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: kurtosis on September 10, 2012, 03:31:20 AM
Hey guys. I figured that this may be a good topic to start. Alcohol effects my POIS in different ways. Sometimes I can get a good buzz on and other times it makes me feel down and slow.

Sometimes the day after I drink, especially in the morning with the hangover, I feel neurologically and mentally improved. For example.. this past weekend I went out with some friends and drank quite a bit of brugal (Rum). The day after I was able to maintain good alertness and mood throughout the day. I did not experience speaking problems or confusion. This is not the first time that I have felt this the day after drinking, but I hadn't yet felt it to this extent.

Any ideas?

Best,

Jon.
If (big if) POIS is connected to too high levels of noradrenaline then alcohol consumption in the right environment may actually reduce the perceived stress level and reduce noradrenaline and adrenaline levels the next morning. Do you feel reduced anxiety on the hangover mornings where your thinking is improved?

Oddly, too much alcohol or alcohol consumed in a stressful situation appears to increase the stress response. This may be one of the reasons for drunken fights. Increased adrenaline and impaired cognition would seem a cocktail likely to produce violence. It's one of the weird things about alcohol and possibly the reason why there are different kinds of drunk depending on a disposition, adrenergic reaction to alcohol and circumstances in life at the time one is drinking.

It sure is a neat theory anyway :)
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Jon on September 13, 2012, 10:57:41 PM
Thanks, Kurtosis, For your response.

Yes I do feel a reduced anxiety on hangover mornings. The 'hangover' feels good because I feel more alive.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: phenethylamine on July 08, 2014, 09:15:56 PM
When one is hung over, they experience something called a glutamate rebound.  Glutamate rebounds temporarily increase glutamate levels in the brain.  If pois results in lowered glutamate levels, perhaps this spike in glutamate may serve as a treatment.  Glutamate is closely associated with memory, learning, visual processes, and a whole bunch of other areas reportedly effected by POIS.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: hurray on November 04, 2015, 06:49:45 PM
Having an O when I am drunk often leads to my POIS symptoms being reduced. I would never recommend somebody try this, I'm just relating my experiences.

As Kurtosis mentions below, it could relate to my stress levels being lower when I am intoxicated, leading to less POIS after the O. I have observed many times that lowering stress levels at the time of O usually helps to minimize my POIS symptoms.

Another theory might relate to how alcohol consumption affects the cholinergic system, which I don't fully understand. When you type cholinergic into Google, the first result states:

"Neurologically, cholinergic is the abbreviated term referring to acetylcholine. The parasympathetic nervous system, which uses acetylcholine almost exclusively to send its messages, is said to be almost entirely cholinergic."

The parasympathetic nervous system includes the Vagus Nerve, and also seems to have a vital role in sexual activity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasympathetic_nervous_system#Sexual_activity
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Quantum on November 04, 2015, 10:06:41 PM
Having an O when I am drunk often leads to my POIS symptoms being reduced. I would never recommend somebody try this, I'm just relating my experiences.

As Kurtosis mentions below, it could relate to my stress levels being lower when I am intoxicated, leading to less POIS after the O. I have observed many times that lowering stress levels at the time of O usually helps to minimize my POIS symptoms.


I do not drink very much alcohol, because of my slow liver ( it does not take much alcohol to make me sleepy ).  However, what reduces my anxiety level reduces my POIS severity and duration as well.  So I tend to believe that it is the temporary stress reduction, and also the lowering of inhibition caused by alcohol, that may lead to a reduction in POIS symptoms. 

For sure, there are much better way to reduce anxiety than alcohol, and, like you, I wouldn't recommend its use as part of a POIS symptoms prevention system.   Usually, people using alcohol as a way to control their stress and anxiety end up, after a while, with a worst situation and more problems than before using it.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: superfrancais on November 05, 2015, 05:46:22 AM
As I mentioned in the Rutgers survey I am very sensitive to alcohol. When I start drinking, even a small quantity, I feel good in the beginning but soon I have symptoms similar to pois (feel bad, depressed, difficulty to think, talk to people). The symptoms are similar but I can tell I have no pois.

Regarding hangovers during the day after, I don't remember feeling particularly good. I feel like I have... hangover :-)
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: COLM_2 on November 05, 2015, 09:26:42 AM
Hi Superfrancais (& Quantum),

I also have had to almost completely eliminate any more than one drink of alcohol every now and again from life.
 
Since my 20's, alcohol has accelerated depression in me, and also impacted very badly on my POIS symptoms.

However, in the last two years, implementing a nutritional, supplementation (Quality Multi-Vit, Moducare, Quercetin, Acidophilus, Omega 3, Vit D, Vit C,  some Reservatrol etc etc)  and a health lifestyle strategy in good exercise. I have noticed that I am now able to tolerate alcohol a bit more. I particularly notice this with beer, as before I had to avoid beer completely because symptoms would come on strong very soon after a half pint even, with lethargy, depression, cognitive and negative and also feeling very lethargic the next day, even after two pints.

Maybe my digestion is better now, even though I do not intend to make alcohol a regular habit, only once or twice per month. Even with two years of discipline around diet and lifestyle, I am disappointed with overall reduction in symptoms, so may start trying to evaluate some other strategies (like MyTelease or other). Need to study this board again.

All the best !
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Quantum on November 07, 2015, 01:38:27 PM
Hi Colm, Superfrancais and everyone,

I notice that only in this thread, there are 4 POIS sufferers who mention they have a marked intolerance for alcohol ( Colm, superfrancais, myself, and Demo, upper this thread, in 2012).  I would be interested to know if it is a common feature among POIS sufferer.

I know my personal intolerance is linked to a very slow metabolism ( elimination) of alcohol by my liver.  Alcohol is eliminated by the liver, and when not done speedily and efficiently, toxic effects occur. Chances are it may be a part of what causes you toxic effects as well .  I have a slow liver for everything, in fact.  I will be sleepy after a large meal, for instance, and in particular if there is fats in it.  It's better for me to eat less, but more frequently.  I lived my childhood and early adulthood with some drowsiness from my last meal.... when I left my parents place, I discovered that eating less was great for me, less fatigue and less drowsiness.  And I have lost, since, my greeny complexion.....


My own way to help with alcohol, apart from limiting my alcohol consumption, is to take milk thistle before alcohol intake.  This helps the liver in working faster, and protect it from toxic residues.  For the upcoming Holiday season, milk thistle will again be my faithful helper.  It helps me both with alcohol and larger than normal portions.  I have to stay fit, as my business do not close during the holidays, so it really helps me have less loss of energy following alcohol intake ( even if only one glass of wine, I get very tired and sleepy, so it is not to allow me to do the fiesta, of course... It is just to be able to drink a minimal amount and not having a backlash from it )


I share with Demo the exercise intolerance as well ( he mentions it in this thread).  It has greatly improved from various change I have made, but I am still capped at 2 times a week of 60 to 90 minutes of sport.  I have tried 3 times a week of badminton or tennis, but I get too tired, not enough time to recover, even if I am trained and otherwise in good shape and not in POIS, so yes, i have a kind of exercise hangover, manifesting in a slow recovery ( fatigue, mostly ).  Milk thistle, along with antioxidants, help me a lot for exercise too.  I take some before my 90 minutes sport activities, and it helps a lot.  The liver, when the body works in anaerobia like in demanding sports, has to detox our system of the acidity excess, the ammonia, etc...  so, when done too slowly, recovery time is slower.  I suspect I am particularly sensible to acidity in my blood, as it causes inflammation throughout the body, not unlike POIS.  The brain, in particular, is affected by this, and a feeling of fatigue is often what comes from inflammation in the brain, even if it is a very slight state of encephalitis.

Milk thistle is a safe supplement for me, it may help others here as well with alcohol intolerance, with overall health, or with POIS ( I have already used it in my POIS pre-pack, but when trying to cut back on the number of supplements in it, it was one of those I had cut - no particular reason ).  I take only normal dosage.  Allergy is possible, it's a plant, but it is not usual.  I never had no problem with it, but when I was younger, and not well centered ( read: hot tempered!), I use to become a bit more aggressive when taking it, because of the increased energy.... my usual drowsiness kept my underlying anger at bay, it seems... yoga and meditation, as well as therapy, learned me to manage my emotions, so I no longer have this side effect.   For more information about milk thistle, see http://examine.com/supplements/milk-thistle/ . 

I saw lately that the absorption of the active ingredients of milk thistle ( sylimarins) are increased by lecithin, I will try this next week, and take my milk thistle capsule with lecithin, and see if I get better results  ( I am still not able to get to this 3 times a week exercising I want).

If someone decide to try it, after having checked that it is safe for his situation, let me know about the results  ( like less side effects from alcohol, more energy, more effective digestive process, less drowsiness after meals,...)


Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Going less Crazy on November 07, 2015, 05:48:37 PM
I completely avoid alcohol.  Creates brain fog and POIS like symptoms.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: COLM_2 on November 08, 2015, 01:34:59 PM
Quantum,

Appreciate the contribution on Milk Thistle. I had been taking this supplement also up until recently, when the nutritionist I periodically discussed diet strategy with suggested I leave that (MT) one out.

Curiously, I also take lecithin granules.

Some weeks back, when at a party I particularly noticed that I was able to have a few alcoholic drinks including beer (normally would bring a lot of lathargy even without POIS cycle), and had very limited negative effect of alcohol that day. Last night, I was at a party and even after one drink, I was starting to feel unwell and was not so good all evening and wasn't good earlier today.

I think the difference "might" have been that I took the Milk Thistle last time but haven't again, up to today that is. About six hours back, having read your post, I took a milk Thistle supplement along with the lecithin granules and this may have helped get my liver back on track.

Definitely not recommending MT so that a person drinks more (I don't recommend alcohol at all in POIS cycle), but as the holiday season approaches, this is something I will have as a weapon during possible over indulgence of food, as I believe I also may have liver processing issues.

Hopefully we will also get more contributions on the alcohol & POIS impacts from other members here soon.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Quantum on November 08, 2015, 08:05:33 PM

I think the difference "might" have been that I took the Milk Thistle last time but haven't again, up to today that is. About six hours back, having read your post, I took a milk Thistle supplement along with the lecithin granules and this may have helped get my liver back on track.


Colm, Thanks for your feedback.  I am very happy to know that I may have been of help in reducing some of the symptoms preventing you from feeling healthy and energized.

In the following weeks, or at Christmas, you will have some opportunities to confirm if whether or not it is milk thistle that helps you with alcohol.

Some degree of chronic liver failure ( sluggish liver ) seems to be present in a subset of POIS sufferers, it could be interesting to make a survey about that.  Symptoms go beyond alcohol intolerance:  post-meal drowsiness, over-reaction to normal doses of drugs or supplements ( because they are not eliminated normally), fatigue, yellowish color in the white of the eyes, itching of the skin, a predisposition to some milder form of hepatic encephalopathy, if something like too much exercise ( or an O or E ? ) comes and disturb the body biochemical equilibrium, and that the liver is very slow to reestablish homeostasis ( normal state) .  This may not be relevant for every POIS sufferer, but there may be many having this metabolic "challenge". I do not believe that some degree of liver failure is the primary cause of POIS, but I do think it can be an aggravating factor.

Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Quantum on November 09, 2015, 08:24:18 PM
I would like to add some other information about the management of a slow liver metabolism. 

Apart from milk thistle, there are some others "friends" that bring support to a sluggish liver:

- clear,source water, a lot of it,  1 liter to 2 liters a day ( 30 to 60 onces), or till your urine is clear in the toilet  ( assuming your are not taking B vitamins, which color the urine in bright yellow)

- Artichoke.  You can eat it as a vegetable, or take capsules.

- Black radish  , also excellent for liver cleansing

You can easily found liver support supplements combining milk thistle, artichoke, black radish, and maybe boldo or other plant extracts as well.  Personally, I prefer to have them separately, so I am not stuck with a fixed dosage combination.

If you feel lighter after meals, feel more energized, less fatigue, less headaches, that your complexion becomes rosier and less yellowish green, and the white of your eyes is getting whiter rather than yellowish, even way down under your eyelids, that's a good sign, keep up the good work :)
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: joelawerence on February 01, 2016, 07:48:49 AM
Alcohol makes me almost POIS free for the duration I am drunk and also early the next day. Then POIS slowly starts coming back to it?s original state as the day goes.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: erik on February 01, 2016, 05:52:40 PM
Hi Joe,
great to hear we have almost the same experience.
For me 2 or 3 glasses of wine does the trick. I dont need to get drunk, a bit tipsy works also well, and the next day starts with no symptoms.
Which is a big difference, cause if i don't have alcohol, the day starts with all those devastating pois symptoms.
Only after a few hours the pois tries to come in, try to fight it with quercetine, 5 htp, or grapefruit. But untill now no total succes of preventing it.
Although in the evening it eases and next day mostly no more symptoms.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: demografx on February 01, 2016, 06:00:53 PM
Hey, erik, belated welcome to POISCenter!
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: joelawerence on February 05, 2016, 06:41:39 AM
Hi Joe,
great to hear we have almost the same experience.
For me 2 or 3 glasses of wine does the trick. I dont need to get drunk, a bit tipsy works also well, and the next day starts with no symptoms.
Which is a big difference, cause if i don't have alcohol, the day starts with all those devastating pois symptoms.
Only after a few hours the pois tries to come in, try to fight it with quercetine, 5 htp, or grapefruit. But untill now no total succes of preventing it.
Although in the evening it eases and next day mostly no more symptoms.

Hi Erik. Even for me even a couple of drinks is enough to reduce POIS significantly and I become POIS free when slightly drunk. Need to see the mechanism behind that. I know that dopamine increases and there may be some other chemical changes which bring this reaction.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: staypositive on February 05, 2016, 11:24:06 AM
Alcohol makes me almost POIS free for the duration I am drunk and also early the next day. Then POIS slowly starts coming back to it?s original state as the day goes.

Same.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: demografx on February 05, 2016, 05:01:04 PM
Same
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: erik on February 07, 2016, 06:34:46 PM
Hi Joe,
great to hear we have almost the same experience.
For me 2 or 3 glasses of wine does the trick. I dont need to get drunk, a bit tipsy works also well, and the next day starts with no symptoms.
Which is a big difference, cause if i don't have alcohol, the day starts with all those devastating pois symptoms.
Only after a few hours the pois tries to come in, try to fight it with quercetine, 5 htp, or grapefruit. But untill now no total succes of preventing it.
Although in the evening it eases and next day mostly no more symptoms.

Hi Erik. Even for me even a couple of drinks is enough to reduce POIS significantly and I become POIS free when slightly drunk. Need to see the mechanism behind that. I know that dopamine increases and there may be some other chemical changes which bring this reaction.

Hi Joe,
I try to do some research as well and if I understand well in this situation with no POIS because of the alcohol, I suppose GABA is the brake pedal, and alcohol is the feet on the brake pedal, preventing the POIS from hitting in.
I don't know if it is alcohol that creates directly extra dopamine, I believe this is only a next step of the GABA-alcohol process.
I don't know if there is something similar working like alcohol on the GABA, perhaps there are other drugs, but I'm afraid they won't be more healthy than alcohol.


Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: b_jim on February 08, 2016, 02:31:57 AM
It's significative when several guys answer "Same".  :)

I've never been "drunk" during all my life but I'm very sensible to alcohol and I have a poor resistance. I drink sometimes red wine (less than 1 glass).
The few times I drink more alcohol, I felt very very bad, depressive and I can't sleep.    Nothing comparable to Pois.

So if alcohol has a possible cure as side effect I couln't try it :)
But more seriously, if a lot of Pois sufferers say alcohol help to counter Pois symptoms it's a valuable information for e neurologist to explain Pois.

 
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Quantum on February 08, 2016, 01:12:41 PM
For those relieved by alcohol, what symptoms, exactly, are relieved?  Muscle ache, lack of energy?  What about cognitive symptoms?  It would be surprising that alcohol intoxication would help with brain fog and focus problems, or make you better at problem solving ;)

I would like to hear a bit more about that, in order to see what can be learned from this about POIS.  Because, personally, having a sluggish liver, it is out of question I could use alcohol in any way for POIS relief - I will feel lifeless and fall asleep before getting drunk, just like b_jim, and will take much time to recover, so this is no more desirable than having POIS.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: less_fogged on February 08, 2016, 02:53:21 PM
These days I don't drink alcohol as I have dedicated myself to feel as good as I can in just about anything I consider healthy. I had become tired and fed up of suffering. But I must say that going back a couple of years when not fully understanding our POIS label and was drinking alcohol every once in a while, rarely ever heavily though. I can remember times of feeling better when on alcohol. I very much remember how it was partly taking away the agony in my head. I was even "wondering" if I could ever consider drinking some alcohol while at work as it probably would make it easier sometimes to get through the day.  With the correct doses it even helps concentration during POIS (for me I can confirm). But obviously not easy if you'd use this in practise.  It probably would not take long before they'd fire you at work as soon as people would smell it on you. If it was now possible to have it monitored in your blood like being on a drip with a continuously monitored amount I guess it would work or more correctly saying it would help.

Naturally for just about anyone a mild doses will usually change you as a person being more happy and positive as long as you don't let yourself go completely drunk turning into another person obviously. Alcohol is after all a product that has a calming effect but magnesium also also has a calming effect.
 
I guess this would suggest that alcohol stimulates the vagus nerve!!!

Another thing: I have to admit similarly to b_jim, in my case if I drink late I believe it will interfere with my sleep at some stage throughout the night. Also I'd be better off with wine than beer as I am also one of those that does not tolerate wheat (allergy in my case).
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: demografx on February 08, 2016, 04:15:11 PM
For those relieved by alcohol, what symptoms, exactly, are relieved?  Muscle ache, lack of energy?  What about cognitive symptoms?  It would be surprising that alcohol intoxication would help with brain fog and focus problems, or make you better at problem solving ;)

I would like to hear a bit more about that, in order to see what can be learned from this about POIS.  Because, personally, having a sluggish liver, it is out of question I could use alcohol in any way for POIS relief - I will feel lifeless and fall asleep before getting drunk, just like b_jim, and will take much time to recover, so this is no more desirable than having POIS.
I think alcohol can help some POISers -- but ONLY TEMPORARILY -- alleviate some POIS symptoms, such as the *anxiety* surrounding our being in an 'impoverished' state of mind, spirit, and body.

POOR SOLUTION IMHO:

Hangovers, addiction potential, liver/alcohol-processing, blackout drinking, DUI's, memory probs, etc., make this an undesirable option, I think.


Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: demografx on February 08, 2016, 09:47:03 PM
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/38A37A99-6D3A-4821-87FE-E3FF05286578_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: demografx on February 09, 2016, 01:08:57 AM
Above graphic pulled off Internet, source unknown. Accurate? Joke? What do you think?
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: joelawerence on February 09, 2016, 05:05:06 AM
For those relieved by alcohol, what symptoms, exactly, are relieved?  Muscle ache, lack of energy?  What about cognitive symptoms?  It would be surprising that alcohol intoxication would help with brain fog and focus problems, or make you better at problem solving ;)

I would like to hear a bit more about that, in order to see what can be learned from this about POIS.  Because, personally, having a sluggish liver, it is out of question I could use alcohol in any way for POIS relief - I will feel lifeless and fall asleep before getting drunk, just like b_jim, and will take much time to recover, so this is no more desirable than having POIS.

Hi Quantam,

For me I am almost 100% POIS free when I have alcohol. It relieves my body aches, fatigue, depression, anxiety, etc. I have not noticed about problem solving abilities but in general I am able to be more relaxed and thus think better. The congnitive improvement is ofcourse only if I have a couple of drinks only, if it?s more alcohol then you become like a normal drunk person.

As Demografx says, we should not use alcohol as a remedy as it is a temporary solution with other long term side effects involved. What we should instead do is investigate the mechanism by which alcohol alleviates POIS sysmptoms, that is what are the chemical and neurological changes involved when alcohol goes into our system.

One thing I can say is that in my last 9 years or so of POIS, it is only when I take some alcohol that I have felt 100% POIS free. I have tried Nicain, Fenugreek, etc. treatments to no avail. But that doesn?t mean I drink alcohol on a regular basis, infact I hardly drink once a month. But this is an area for us to investigate.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: demografx on February 09, 2016, 02:28:55 PM
Thank you, joelawerence!
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: less_fogged on February 09, 2016, 03:55:44 PM
Alcohol usually also stops the workings of most meds you might be taking.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: erik on February 09, 2016, 05:37:11 PM
For those relieved by alcohol, what symptoms, exactly, are relieved?  Muscle ache, lack of energy?  What about cognitive symptoms?  It would be surprising that alcohol intoxication would help with brain fog and focus problems, or make you better at problem solving ;)

I would like to hear a bit more about that, in order to see what can be learned from this about POIS.  Because, personally, having a sluggish liver, it is out of question I could use alcohol in any way for POIS relief - I will feel lifeless and fall asleep before getting drunk, just like b_jim, and will take much time to recover, so this is no more desirable than having POIS.

Hello Quantum,
I only drink some alcohol about every 2 weeks, mostly about 2 till 3 glasses of red wine.
If i have an O. afterwards, the next morning when I wake up, i don?t feel foggy,  dont? feel mentally and fysically exhausted, don?t feel like the flu is there, and i don?t feel social phobia, irritated or depressed.

When I do not drink the wine I will have these symptoms.
With the wine I only feel a little bit drowsy,and am a little bit slow thinking, but this is total different than the fog with POIS.
I have the same drowsiness and slow thinking  with alcohol  when i don?t have an O.

Later in the day, mostly after lunch, i feel the above listed pois symptoms coming in and slowly take over my system, but it doesn?t hit me so hard as when i did not take the wine.
I take extra anti-oxidants  during this day.
The next day  I?m mostly always free of Pois-symptoms.

Just like Joe I?m also very interested in the mechanism behind this.
I?ve read something, and try to interpret it, but I?m no expert, so please correct me if im wrong.

Alcohol is among other things resulting that neurotransmitter Glutamate is blocked or less active.
So I have no symptoms  for about 12 till 14 hours after I drunk alcohol.
So is it possible to assume  that if I didn?t drink the alcohol and had an O, that the Glutamate levels perhaps would explode because of perhaps an allergic reaction on Orgasm. ?
And could this explosion of glutamate levels and this following inbalance  of neurotransmitters in the brain cause all those negative symptoms of POIS ?
Cause what I read, high Glutamate levels cause a lot of POIS problems,  like behavior change, emotional problems, headaches, additional production of free radicals.

It ?s only a hypothesis,  but have to start somewhere.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Quantum on February 10, 2016, 09:29:11 PM

Just like Joe I?m also very interested in the mechanism behind this.
I?ve read something, and try to interpret it, but I?m no expert, so please correct me if im wrong.

Alcohol is among other things resulting that neurotransmitter Glutamate is blocked or less active.
So I have no symptoms  for about 12 till 14 hours after I drunk alcohol.
So is it possible to assume  that if I didn?t drink the alcohol and had an O, that the Glutamate levels perhaps would explode because of perhaps an allergic reaction on Orgasm. ?
And could this explosion of glutamate levels and this following inbalance  of neurotransmitters in the brain cause all those negative symptoms of POIS ?
Cause what I read, high Glutamate levels cause a lot of POIS problems,  like behavior change, emotional problems, headaches, additional production of free radicals.

It ?s only a hypothesis,  but have to start somewhere.

Thanks everyone for your answers about symptoms relieved by alcohol.  Obviously, like Demo, Joe and others have mentioned in this thread, alcohol is not recommended for POIS relief, but understanding why it brings relief would be of value.

Erik, I share your hypothesis about glutamate.  High level of glutamate or other substances that stimulates the NMDA receptors too much causes excitotoxicity ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitotoxicity ).  This pathological process kills and damages nervous brain cells, leading to all sorts of cognitive and emotional symptoms.  I personally think it is at play for many symptoms of POIS. In my hypothesis, the cognitive symptoms may come from kynurenic acid excitotoxicity, and emotional symptoms form quinolinic acid excitotoxicity  ( details at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1988.msg15559#msg15559 ).   

That is what lead me to use NMDA receptors blockers before release, to prevent this excitotoxicity. That, and the fact that magnesium was helping me against POIS, and was searching why, and thta it is a NMDA receptors blocker.  So now, the pre-pack of supplements I have been taking for almost a year to prevent POIS contains three different NMDA receptors blockers: 

Magnesium,
Lignan ( in the form of flax seed oil),
and L-theanine  ( that I take both in pure supplement form, or in green tea extract)   

With these and some other substances, I get 80% to 100% relief.  So, I do not know if this hypothesis is right, but using NMDAR blockers helps me.

As a matter of fact, alcohol is a NMDA receptors blocker. However, as I have said, I do not use it, and i am not interested to do so.

Other NMDAR blockers that I know of are: 
Taurine ( that I also use in low, 600mg doses ),
Zinc ( that I take as pumpkin seeds, because zinc itself is hard on my stomach), 
Acetyl-L-carnitine ( tried it, but was causing me stomach aches, so I stopped )
Huperzine A ( never tried)
Cat's claw ( never tried)
Ibuprofen ( I use it sometime)

In my experience, they are more efficient if taken before release.  I suppose, from your posts, that alcohol is effective when you have taken it before O ( Is that right?)

If any of you, in search of an alternative for alcohol as a source of relief for POIS, try any of the NMDAR blockers stated above before O, alone or in combination, at safe dosage of course, let me know of your results ( even if not conclusive).




Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: b_jim on February 12, 2016, 07:01:51 AM
I'm not competent about glutamate receptors but some elements are very good :

Quote
Alcohol is among other things resulting that neurotransmitter Glutamate is blocked or less active.

Quote
Other NMDAR blockers that I know of are:
Taurine

I can find a scientific study showing this.

The long term effects of glutamate is not  really interresting for Pois (dispite it seems to be the next food scandal).
But there is phenomenon called Chinese restaurant syndrome and some symptoms are close to Pois.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Mr Raba on February 12, 2016, 06:05:32 PM
Dear friends,

I have said this years before. I have realized that POIS and CFS are connected. The major difference is symptoms duration and O trigger. Otherwise symptoms, treatments, what makes things worse o better are almost identical.

Years after my saying this and being swiftly dismissed.  This forum is finding the slow and painful way the same things it took decades for CFS people to learn and discover. I believe POIS and CFS have the same underlying mechanism. I have both. But only because I stumbled into CFS on the web first. POIS did not exist on the web back in 1993! 

Now people find POIS and the label is put on. Perfect match. Search stops.

I believe that CFS and POIS are in the same disease spectrum. The answers to many questions asked here are already known and fully documented in CFS research. Like alcohol intolerance.

I think that in time POIS will be found to be a subset of CFS.


in CFS all these are involved:

Vagus nerve involvement
CNS imbalance
Macroglial cells involvement
Methylation involvement
Leaky gut and and abnormal microbine behavior.
Inability to read at times, or concentrate
Flu like symptoms
Sore throat
Headache
Night sweats
Excerciste intolerance
Hormonal axis imbalance
Immune and cytokine activation
Detox blocks
 Visual stress.
Low vit D
Borderline testosterone
Thyroid issues
Balance issues
Anxiety
Social anxiety
Word finding problems
Dysautonomia
Etc etc etc.


And the same supps work!  The list is too long to list. The match is almost incredible.

So please take a look and see for yourself. Lets not be so sure they are completely different diseases. They only differ on trigger and symptoms duration. Even the 2 to 5 day relapse is common. Some even months.


I have known several peolple that have both. Or actually relized they have CFS with O  trigget. As opposed to just CFS.
I even wonder if CFS in men is mostly found as POIS. Hence why men are underrepresented in CFS.



See this blog for starting to evaluate by yourself what the overlap is
We can  leverage a lot of this research and spend our limited research funds in light of what an almost identical, hugely overlapping condition has already found out.

http://www.cortjohnson.org/

Good health to us all!  😊😊👍🏽
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: demografx on February 12, 2016, 06:56:56 PM
mrraba, you may wish to start a new "POIS and CFS" thread?

Or add your post to an existing thread, such as "CFS parallels":
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2091.0

This particular thread is more related to "Alcohol & POIS".



Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: erik on February 12, 2016, 08:07:16 PM
As a matter of fact, alcohol is a NMDA receptors blocker. However, as I have said, I do not use it, and i am not interested to do so.

Other NMDAR blockers that I know of are: 
Taurine ( that I also use in low, 600mg doses ),
Zinc ( that I take as pumpkin seeds, because zinc itself is hard on my stomach), 
Acetyl-L-carnitine ( tried it, but was causing me stomach aches, so I stopped )
Huperzine A ( never tried)
Cat's claw ( never tried)
Ibuprofen ( I use it sometime)

In my experience, they are more efficient if taken before release.  I suppose, from your posts, that alcohol is effective when you have taken it before O ( Is that right?)

If any of you, in search of an alternative for alcohol as a source of relief for POIS, try any of the NMDAR blockers stated above before O, alone or in combination, at safe dosage of course, let me know of your results ( even if not conclusive).
[/quote]


Thanks for your reaction Quantum,
Very interesting hypothesis you have, it?s complicated, but I think it brings me directly a few steps further.

In my case I think alcohol is only effective if taken before O. , and then only for this 12-14 hours.
Guess it is interesting to know what will happen if I take some alcohol just before this period of time,
if this will again postpone the POIS, but untill now I never tried.


Perhaps Oxaloacetate can also be interesting, to ease POIS symptoms.
It is not an NMDA receptor blocker, but this stuff reduces the glutamat in your blood circulation system, and this will then pump the high levels of glutamat of the brain into the low levelled glutamat blood circulation system.
I'm very interested if there are others which have experiences with it.

Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Quantum on February 13, 2016, 08:33:05 PM
I'm not competent about glutamate receptors but some elements are very good :
Quote
Alcohol is among other things resulting that neurotransmitter Glutamate is blocked or less active.
Quote
Other NMDAR blockers that I know of are:
Taurine

I can find a scientific study showing this.

The long term effects of glutamate is not  really interresting for Pois (dispite it seems to be the next food scandal).
But there is phenomenon called Chinese restaurant syndrome and some symptoms are close to Pois.

Hi b_jim,

In case you meant that you "can't" find a scientific study about taurine being a NMDAR blocker, here's one:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23392923

About the excitotoxicity, I do no think it is caused, in POIS, by glutamate itself, but by other substances naturally present in the brain, like kynurenic acid and quinolinic acid, which are NMDAR agonists as well.  They are ok when in normal level, but become toxic when an inflammation reaction boost their production in the brain  ( this mechanism has been studied in depression and in some auto-immune disease - but not in POIS, needless to say ).
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Quantum on February 13, 2016, 09:10:22 PM
Thanks for your reaction Quantum,
Very interesting hypothesis you have, it?s complicated, but I think it brings me directly a few steps further.

In my case I think alcohol is only effective if taken before O. , and then only for this 12-14 hours.
Guess it is interesting to know what will happen if I take some alcohol just before this period of time,
if this will again postpone the POIS, but untill now I never tried.


Perhaps Oxaloacetate can also be interesting, to ease POIS symptoms.
It is not an NMDA receptor blocker, but this stuff reduces the glutamat in your blood circulation system, and this will then pump the high levels of glutamat of the brain into the low levelled glutamat blood circulation system.
I'm very interested if there are others which have experiences with it.


Hi erik,

It is the first time I hear about oxaloacetate being helpful to reduce glutamate level in the brain, thanks for mentioning it.  I have found some more information about that at http://www.naturalhealthadvisory.com/daily/natural-health-101/3-ways-an-oxaloacetate-supplement-can-protect-you/ .  This article also says that acetylcysteine can also reduce glutamate levels ( but I have no idea if it is correct).  I have tried n-acetylcysteine for POIS, because it is a good antioxidant, but this is a sulfured compound, so here is the kind of antisocial results I had when I took some (as the third, pink, gentleman):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLP4QkflB-o   :) :)  So, never again!

However, like I wrote in my previous message, I do no think the excitotoxicity is caused, in POIS, by glutamate itself, but by other substances naturally present in the brain, like kynurenic acid and quinolinic acid, which are NMDAR agonists as well.  So, I have no idea if lowering the glutamate level would be effective in reducing the overall NMDAR stimulation level when other agonists are present in toxic levels.

In my current method, I use 3 NMDAR blockers  ( magnesium, flax seed oil and L-theanine/green tea) that help reduce the excitotoxicity in the brain by blocking the NMDA receptors, so whatever the agonist is, the receptor is blocked.  I also use IDO and TDO inhibitors, that prevent the production of the toxic metabolites I suppose are at play in the brain while in POIS.  The reasons I state are only a hypothesis, but however,  my pre-pack of supplements works for me, whatever the exact scientific reasons may be.

Thanks for you comment about my hypothesis.  Yes, I know, it's not simple.... but POIS isn't, and I have tried to see why, in particular, symptoms seem to be seperated in "famiies" or clusters, most members having symptoms in some of those clusters, and not in others ( a minority have symptoms in all four clusters I have defined, and usually, they are severe case of POIS ) .  This have all started by the fact that I have absolutely no cognitive symptoms, bot severe emotional symptoms, so I have searched for a hypothesis that would explain that.

Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Going less Crazy on February 18, 2016, 09:52:43 PM
http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/binge-drinking-effects-your-immune-system-immediately

Think the effects on the immune system after some hours is why we feel good in the morning in a POIS state and bad right when we drink alcohol.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: erik on March 03, 2016, 05:38:51 PM
In my current method, I use 3 NMDAR blockers  ( magnesium, flax seed oil and L-theanine/green tea) that help reduce the excitotoxicity in the brain by blocking the NMDA receptors, so whatever the agonist is, the receptor is blocked.  I also use IDO and TDO inhibitors, that prevent the production of the toxic metabolites I suppose are at play in the brain while in POIS.  The reasons I state are only a hypothesis, but however,  my pre-pack of supplements works for me, whatever the exact scientific reasons may be.
[/quote]


Hi Quantum,
I read about your pre-pack, I don't know if I interpret this article right.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17230642#
But could perhaps creatine among the other things mentioned in this article be interesting for use in the pre-pack ?
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Quantum on March 07, 2016, 12:20:24 AM

Quote from: Quantum
In my current method, I use 3 NMDAR blockers  ( magnesium, flax seed oil and L-theanine/green tea) that help reduce the excitotoxicity in the brain by blocking the NMDA receptors, so whatever the agonist is, the receptor is blocked.  I also use IDO and TDO inhibitors, that prevent the production of the toxic metabolites I suppose are at play in the brain while in POIS.  The reasons I state are only a hypothesis, but however,  my pre-pack of supplements works for me, whatever the exact scientific reasons may be.


Hi Quantum,
I read about your pre-pack, I don't know if I interpret this article right.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17230642#
But could perhaps creatine among the other things mentioned in this article be interesting for use in the pre-pack ?


Hi erik !

Good point, creatine has indeed NMDAR blocker properties.  I have tried it a few times, a few months ago, but even at low dose, it makes may urinate at a very high frequency for several hours  ( up to 24 hours for a single dose), so it was not worth it for me, because of this particular side effect it has for me.  The mechanism of this increased urination may be osmotic diuresis, I suppose, since creatine is a very small molecule, and can cause this in the kidney tubules.  This effect is not often mentioned, but I did have found other cases of this mentioned on the internet, often on forums by body builders that have tried using it. 

Since I have already other NMDAR blockers that work well without side effects, I have let go of creatine.  It may be useful for other POIS sufferers, as it is usually well tolerated.  If anyone get good results with it, let me know.   
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: hurray on February 18, 2017, 09:13:31 AM
I was reluctant to post about this before, but a couple of beers before O does reduce all subsequent POIS symptoms for me. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, this effect could well be caused by the reduction of stress/anxiety. And there are plenty of other, better, ways to achieve that than drinking alcohol.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: VictorHugo on June 14, 2017, 01:56:08 PM
As a proponent of Auto Immune Protocol (AIP) Diet and having experienced the positive effects of this diet, I would say be very very cautious with alcohol. It is said that POIS is an Auto Immune Condition and is now well known (I like to think so) in the Auto Immune Circle that AIP reverses Auto Immune Disease. AlP diet requires you to not consume Alcohol since it damages our intestines, which is where the Auto Immune Conditions start from - A 'Leaky Gut'.

Keeping my mail short since its late here in India. Do checkout this article on PaleoMom website about Alcohol and AIP: https://www.thepaleomom.com/the-whys-behind-the-autoimmune-protocol-alcohol/

This site is also a good starting point to learn more about Auto Immune Diseases and AIP diet.

Thanks for your post and stay healthy.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: wolf on June 15, 2017, 01:25:25 AM
Hi, it is also the case for me when drinking alocohol after an O my symptoms are reduced greatly, It helps the most with concentration and my brain fog as well as my social anxiety and it also lessens my physical symptoms too but not fully. I also have been taking viagra 25 or 50 mg after an O at times along with l -Citrulline capsules and this at times seems to have  alleviated some of my symptoms and in addition increased my sex drive tremendously lol. I am also planning on adding vitamin B as well and see if that can help too. and for anybody wanting to try the viagra after an O just make sure you are ok to take it because I hear it can be dangerous to some.
Also I have noticed that taurine does help me aswell

Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: ThisType on June 17, 2017, 11:19:27 AM
Beer contains a moderate level of betaine. It might be worth checking the discussions on beets (high betaine), eggs (high choline which is a precursor to betaine) and related (I see a few on choline, etc) to see if there are commonalities.
https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/80400525/Articles/IFT2004_Betaine.pdf

TT
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Unvers on July 03, 2017, 03:01:28 AM
Alcohol is a CNS depressant, if you suffer of depression triggered by POIS I don't think alcohol is a good idea.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Investigator on January 05, 2018, 12:35:31 AM
For me, sometimes alcohol improves the POIS symptoms. It seems to work (sometimes). Not always, just sometimes.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Vincent M on February 12, 2018, 08:34:41 AM
Alcohol decreases my POIS symptoms both temporarily and long term. Temporarily it decreases physical pains and anxiety. It helps me long term by improving blood circulation and aiding digestion.  It also improves my cognition and memory the next day in a way that feels similar to the way increasing acetylcholine via huperzine affects me.

1-3 beers is what I usually stick to in one day. I suspect wine is the most healthy form of alcohol, but it's too expensive for me and I prefer the taste of beer.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: hurray on February 12, 2018, 01:09:44 PM

Some studies show that ethanol inhibits the release of oxytocin:

http://www.eje-online.org/content/44/4/593
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1574949

Could it be that oxytocin (or lack of it) has a strong link to our POIS symptoms?
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: demografx on February 12, 2018, 01:27:45 PM
hurray, I posted this a while back, you might have seen more at the nakedscientists.com POIS forum.


...Orgasm culminates in a release of oxytocin (the 'cuddle hormone'). In Europe, they even sell a nasal spray with oxytocin.

But it can be a dangerous drug to take.

We had a lot of discussion @ TNS/POIS about oxytocin (possible POIS treatment?). You can copy and paste this in your Google search box and a number of oxytocin discussions will come up:

oxytocin POIS site:http://thenakedscientists.com

Use spaces and no-spaces as shown directly above this line.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: hurray on February 12, 2018, 02:15:15 PM
Hi Demo, good to see you :)

Yes, you are correct, oxytocin itself should never be used outside a hospital. Oxytocin as used in medicine is useless for POIS anyway because it doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier. We spent a while discussing oxytocin on the Naked Scientists thread, there are some excellent posts on there.

I find it a curious coincidence that 2 of the main things that affect my POIS symptoms (alcohol and fenugreek) both have a strong link to oxytocin (the kind we make ourselves inside the hypothalamus). Is it a false lead, or could there be something to it?



Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: demografx on February 12, 2018, 02:29:04 PM
hurray, great to see you...many years forum-ing together! :)

Like you, I think there’s something to it. That’s why I posted the Naked Science forum link above: check out these old oxytocin/POIS posts.

Perhaps one of our more scientific-minded Members at POISCenter here can chime in? :)

Gentlemen (or lady visitors): any new thoughts about oxytocin and POIS?


Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: berlin1984 on July 29, 2020, 02:33:16 PM
Cross linking some things:

2. Alcohol: I occasionally drink alcohol and it removes my symptoms to 90% temporarily. Although I dont advice this for others due to the obvious other effects of alcohol

FYI, unfortunately, alcohol fix POIS for me, if I get drunk, the next day i'm 100% POIS free. Dunno why, maybe alcohol reduces brain inflammation or something like that.

But - the possibility of me getting POIS seems to be greatly reduced if I drink alcohol before O. I have no idea why this should be. Fenugreek, a few beers and some fatty/protein containing food before O is one of the most reliable ways that I have found of avoiding POIS. Stiill, I can't recommend it - drinking is just substituting one problem for another.

-Alcohol (ethanol): The only thing that has been able to prevent and fix POIS entirely. If I'm drunk, I can ejaculate as much as I want and next day, I'll have just a hangover but no POIS at all. If I'm under POIS and get drunk, next day i'll be POIS free.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: berlin1984 on July 29, 2020, 02:34:20 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/hangovereffect/
A community that feel relief from hangovers and are looking for answers as to why
Most of us are diagnosed with ADHD and exhibit depression, anxiety and fatigue but feel complete remission from all symptoms when hungover from alcohol. If you feel the same way, join us and let's find a cure.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: b_jim on January 19, 2021, 08:22:58 AM
Amazing experience for me today.
I drank a glass of wine just some minutes after ejaculation.
Wow, amazing. It at least triples the effects of alcohol. During 5 minutes I need to stay seated with strong brain fog and "cutted legs" feeling.

First time I did this. I usually drink very few alcohol.
A clear proof of up and down levels of neurotransmitters after ejaculation for me.


Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on January 19, 2021, 09:03:03 AM
Why was it an amazing experience if it gave you strong brain fog haha. I can't tolerate alcohol at all now I feel horrible on it.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: drop247 on January 19, 2021, 09:45:49 AM
It could be the histamine. Wine is loaded with it.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: demografx on January 19, 2021, 02:44:42 PM
Amazing experience for me today.
I drank a glass of wine just some minutes after ejaculation.
Wow, amazing. It at least triples the effects of alcohol. During 5 minutes I need to stay seated with strong brain fog and "cutted legs" feeling.

First time I did this. I usually drink very few alcohol.
A clear proof of up and down levels of neurotransmitters after ejaculation for me.

(https://pics.me.me/serotonin-dopamine-technically-the-only-two-things-you-en-23276553.png)
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Nas on January 20, 2021, 06:58:09 PM
Why was it an amazing experience if it gave you strong brain fog haha. I can't tolerate alcohol at all now I feel horrible on it.

That's a strong clue.
But what would you describe the experience? It made it worst or better?
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: BoneBroth on February 28, 2021, 04:12:29 AM
I had a glass of ecological white wine yesterday, 12% alcohol, and it was affecting me for an hour, and 5 hours later my pulse increased and i had a horrible night with nighmares and headache, it was worst at about 1-2 am when the liver is doing its detoxification program. Or was it the histamine???
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Cursed on February 28, 2021, 06:44:39 PM
My guess would be that alcohol decreases sympathetic drive and therefore prevents excessive vasoconstriction, which could be the main mechanism of POIS. It's also a vasodilator, I think, so that's another one.

There is a hypothesis that ME/CFS symptoms might be caused by such a mechanism. According to this hypothesis, there is imbalance in vasoconstriction-vasodilation possibly due to adrenergic antibodies or some other mechanism and the body is trying to open the blood vessels by using "wrong" substances, which spillover into the blood and could potentially explain all the symptoms.

We use muscles for ejaculation, don't we? Personally, I believe this hypothesis fits POIS even better than CFS.

I highly recommend reasing this article:
The Blood Vessel Crunch: A Unifying Hypothesis for ME/CFS
https://web.archive.org/web/20201127164121/http://simmaronresearch.com/2020/05/blood-vessel-crunch-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

For some reason the original link didn't work, hence archive.org

A few quotes from the article:
Quote
The authors believe that the heightened sympathetic nervous system activity clamps down hard on the arteries. Meanwhile the B2AdR dysfunction impairs the ability of the small blood vessels to dilate. This dysbalance between vasoconstrictor and vasodilator forces ? with the vasoconstrictors winning ? triggers the release of  painful vasodilating substances in an attempt to open the blood vessels. The entire process is, in turn, enhanced by the metabolic/energetic problems in the muscles.

Quote
The Spillover Effect
The authors don?t believe that these problems are just happening in the muscles. They believe that just about every symptom in ME/CFS could be caused when vasodilatory substances spill over into the general circulation, around the muscles, the lymph nodes, the gut and the bladder.

Provided that enough of these vasodilatory substances were present, every stress on the cardiovascular system could result in fatigue, pain, flu-like systems etc.

Even mental stress, they believe, could cause pain by triggering the sympathetic nervous system to clamp down further on the blood vessels of the skeletal muscles, causing them to emit vasodilators in an attempt to get more blood, and producing pain, flu-like symptoms, etc. For me, personally, this could explain the muscle pain and flu-like symptoms I often experience simply sitting in a chair while doing mental work.

The chief vasodilator  ? bradykinin ? a seemingly all purpose peptide, could also open the blood-brain barrier, and contribute to the intracranial hypertension, small fiber neuropathy, sleep apnea and sleep problems present

Quote
At its core the hypothesis is simple ? there?s an imbalance between vasoconstriction and vasodilation in the blood vessels. It starts with a vasoconstriction crunch produced by an overactivated sympathetic nervous system. Damage to BSAdR receptors leaves the small blood vessels near the muscles struggling to open up enough to get the blood they need. With limited blood flows, and with the energy deprived muscles screaming for more blood, the authors envision pain and fatigue provoking vasodilators pouring out in an attempt to open up those blood vessels.

Of course, some of the things mentioned in the article likely don't apply to POIS, like preload failure or orthostatic intolerance, nonetheless, I think it it'a possible that it is related.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: BoneBroth on March 01, 2021, 05:44:26 AM
Vasopressin (also known as antidiuretic hormone (ADH), arginine vasopressin (AVP) or argipressin) is a major player here. Many POISers report dehydration, dry skin, wrinkles, decrease in saliva and dry eyes. Produced in the hypothalamus, it increases the amount of solute-free water reabsorbed back into the circulation from the filtrate in the kidney tubules of the nephrons. Second, AVP constricts arterioles, which increases peripheral vascular resistance and raises arterial blood pressure.
Title: Re: Alcohol and POIS
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on March 01, 2021, 12:08:12 PM
Vasopressin (also known as antidiuretic hormone (ADH), arginine vasopressin (AVP) or argipressin) is a major player here. Many POISers report dehydration, dry skin, wrinkles, decrease in saliva and dry eyes. Produced in the hypothalamus, it increases the amount of solute-free water reabsorbed back into the circulation from the filtrate in the kidney tubules of the nephrons. Second, AVP constricts arterioles, which increases peripheral vascular resistance and raises arterial blood pressure.

Yeah I also suggested Vasopressin on here before, it's a successful treatment in autism and possibly schizophrenia. I checked and Vasopressin is hard to obtain, Desmopressin is the man made synthetic version of Vasopressin and is avaliable on lots of these online pharmacies. It was on my list of things to try along with verapamil.

https://epiphanyasd.blogspot.com/search/label/Vasopressin?updated-max=2021-01-11T13:11:00%2B01:00&max-results=20&start=2&by-date=false

https://epiphanyasd.blogspot.com/2021/02/vasopressin-oxytocin-lateral-septum.html