Author Topic: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs  (Read 9036 times)

b_jim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1092
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #60 on: November 29, 2024, 07:44:41 AM »
1995 animal study showed that taurine helps with normal level restauration of a form of thiamine (phosphate esters ) after its depletion by drug.

I think the combination of taurine + (benfo)thiamine will be my strategy  for 2025.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2024, 11:12:33 AM by b_jim »
Taurine = Anti-Pois

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6457
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #61 on: November 29, 2024, 12:30:03 PM »
1995 animal study showed that taurine helps with normal level restauration of a form of thiamine (phosphate esters ) after its depletion by drug.

I think the combination of taurine + (benfo)thiamine will be my strategy  for 2025.

Fascinating, b_jim! Your research with taurine goes way back to our predecessor-forum beginnings in 2007!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2024, 12:06:35 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Progecitor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 404
  • Aphrodisiacs are effective
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2024, 12:12:31 PM »
1995 animal study showed that taurine helps with normal level restauration of a form of thiamine (phosphate esters ) after its depletion by drug.

I think the combination of taurine + (benfo)thiamine will be my strategy  for 2025.

This combination sounds to be a good idea! Coincidentally a treatment scheme for diabetic neuropathy may actually work in the treatment of POIS as well. Besides benfotiamine some of the following could be also utilized. As an available PKC inhibitor lycopene could be used.
I have just begun on a higher dose (100-150 mg) of benfotiamine, but I can certainly see some benefit. Niacin, lycopene, R-ALA and aspirin are also quite useful. ALCAR was less so and unfortunately for some reason I still have trouble with taurine, but this may be specific to my case.

With reference to oxidative stress and the related pathways, the following new drugs are under study such as taurine, acetyl-L-carnitine, alpha lipoic acid, protein kinase C inhibitor (ruboxistaurin), aldose reductase inhibitors (fidarestat, epalrestat, ranirestat), advanced glycation end product inhibitors (benfotiamine, aspirin, aminoguanidine), the hexosamine pathway inhibitor (benfotiamine), inhibitor of poly ADP-ribose polymerase (nicotinamide), and angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitor (trandolapril).
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1155/2013/168039
The cause is probably a combination of autoimmunity and SASP leading to excessive oxidative stress and lipid peroxidation. Antioxidants, testosterone, NO and norepinephrine boosters, ERbeta, sigma-1, SIRT-1 and dopamine agonists, PDE4, PDE5 inhibitors and CD36 antagonists are effective.

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6457
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2024, 04:10:28 PM »

1995 animal study showed that taurine helps with normal level restauration of a form of thiamine (phosphate esters ) after its depletion by drug.

I think the combination of taurine + (benfo)thiamine will be my strategy  for 2025.


This combination sounds to be a good idea!…


Please keep the forum informed as to progress!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2024, 10:52:49 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Warrior

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2024, 04:33:58 PM »
1995 animal study showed that taurine helps with normal level restauration of a form of thiamine (phosphate esters ) after its depletion by drug.

I think the combination of taurine + (benfo)thiamine will be my strategy  for 2025.


My TTFD has a small amount of magnesium taurinate in it which the brand have done deliberately. I keep hearing about combining it with magnesium and taurine. Must be something to it for sure.
Nothing I say is medical advice. Always do your own research. Follow anything I say at your own discretion.
My POIS Protocol | My YouTube Channel

Warrior

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2024, 06:26:11 PM »
1995 animal study showed that taurine helps with normal level restauration of a form of thiamine (phosphate esters ) after its depletion by drug.

I think the combination of taurine + (benfo)thiamine will be my strategy  for 2025.

This combination sounds to be a good idea! Coincidentally a treatment scheme for diabetic neuropathy may actually work in the treatment of POIS as well. Besides benfotiamine some of the following could be also utilized. As an available PKC inhibitor lycopene could be used.
I have just begun on a higher dose (100-150 mg) of benfotiamine, but I can certainly see some benefit. Niacin, lycopene, R-ALA and aspirin are also quite useful. ALCAR was less so and unfortunately for some reason I still have trouble with taurine, but this may be specific to my case.

With reference to oxidative stress and the related pathways, the following new drugs are under study such as taurine, acetyl-L-carnitine, alpha lipoic acid, protein kinase C inhibitor (ruboxistaurin), aldose reductase inhibitors (fidarestat, epalrestat, ranirestat), advanced glycation end product inhibitors (benfotiamine, aspirin, aminoguanidine), the hexosamine pathway inhibitor (benfotiamine), inhibitor of poly ADP-ribose polymerase (nicotinamide), and angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitor (trandolapril).
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1155/2013/168039

You might be interested in what r/7e7en87 (https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/1guili4/comment/lyxhrh4/?context=3) has been sharing at the POIS subreddit. I see overlap with his and your contributions - you might have a similar POIS cluster like I do. His contributions have been huge for my own POIS. He recommends ALA, taurine, TTFD along with magnesium taurate, creatine, methyl donors, cordyceps (high quality brand like Oriveda), D3 and some others. He's constantly updating his stack. I have found him very useful.
Nothing I say is medical advice. Always do your own research. Follow anything I say at your own discretion.
My POIS Protocol | My YouTube Channel

b_jim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1092
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #66 on: December 02, 2024, 03:08:56 AM »
Thanks.

A 2020 animal study says :

- Thiamine has a critical role in spermatogenesis
- The group taking anti-thiamine drug (metronidazole) shows an important drop  of free testosterone, sperm concentration and moderate drop of LH/FSH.
- Anti-oxydant grapefruit might influences some datas.

The study didnt't prove thiamine deficiency explain the drops but it  maybe attributable to thiamine deficiency and oxidative stress.
.

So I think it's not stupid for poisers to try to boost our B1 level and increase anti-oxydant with food.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2024, 03:16:53 AM by b_jim »
Taurine = Anti-Pois

Sisyphus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #67 on: December 02, 2024, 06:36:02 AM »
You might be interested in what r/7e7en87 (https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/1guili4/comment/lyxhrh4/?context=3) has been sharing at the POIS subreddit. I see overlap with his and your contributions - you might have a similar POIS cluster like I do. His contributions have been huge for my own POIS. He recommends ALA, taurine, TTFD along with magnesium taurate, creatine, methyl donors, cordyceps (high quality brand like Oriveda), D3 and some others. He's constantly updating his stack. I have found him very useful.

That's an interesting sub reddit, especially when he writes that his POIS is alleviated by multiple O's.

He gets POIS after one O.
His POIS is alleviated by multiple O's.
His POIS is worse after one O when preceded by a period of abstaining.

experience 3: "If I ejaculate a few more times in succession, my POIS symptoms become less intense, and the burning sensation decreases as well."
Isn't this the opposite of most people's POIS?
I thought most people get worse POIS symptoms the more times that they have O's?.
Do cases like this imply that it is time for the "O" requirement for POIS to be readdressed?!

He theorises about a chronic fungal infection. I suppose that is possible but imo, everything he describes could just as easily be autoimmune or allergy related or 100 other things.
ex/ another speculative theory (autoimmune?): Could it be the mere presence of sperm at a certain point in their life cycle in a particular area of the body (epidymis, vas deferens, urethra etc) that is triggering this person's POIS rather than an O? etc.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2024, 06:55:35 AM by Sisyphus »

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6457
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #68 on: December 02, 2024, 10:56:07 AM »
Thanks.

A 2020 animal study says :

- Thiamine has a critical role in spermatogenesis
- The group taking anti-thiamine drug (metronidazole) shows an important drop  of free testosterone, sperm concentration and moderate drop of LH/FSH.
- Anti-oxydant grapefruit might influences some datas.

The study didnt't prove thiamine deficiency explain the drops but it  maybe attributable to thiamine deficiency and oxidative stress.
.

So I think it's not stupid for poisers to try to boost our B1 level and increase anti-oxydant with food.


Thanks, b_jim!
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6457
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #69 on: December 02, 2024, 10:58:46 AM »

Do cases like this imply that it is time for the "O" requirement for POIS to be readdressed?!


It’s still “early” enough in POIS research that we can think flexibly!
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Warrior

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #70 on: December 03, 2024, 05:27:20 AM »
This guys channel (EONutrition) is a treasure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uod2DoGejvI. I know berlin already gave a link to his site in the original post, but his YouTube channel is filled with interesting anecdotal podcast reports of people's experiences with thiamine and medicinal dosing of other nutrients. Many of them have conditions that appear to be very similar to POIS.
Nothing I say is medical advice. Always do your own research. Follow anything I say at your own discretion.
My POIS Protocol | My YouTube Channel

berlin1984

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
  • Use Adaptogens and Antioxidants, they can help.
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #71 on: December 03, 2024, 08:43:06 AM »
Just to chime in, I'm also taking TTFD for quite some time now (several months) and I definitely like it and will keep taking it.
It's good for my general energy and my normally lacking gut motility. (I think it also improves my POIS as my feeling is everything that is anti-fatigue, pro-muscle-building or pro-male-fertility or pro-testosterone is also improving POIS)

I also liked this guest post of the EONutrition guy on another blog (HormonesMatter): https://hormonesmatter.com/sibo-ibs-constipation-thiamine-deficiency/

b_jim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1092
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2024, 03:01:16 AM »
Yes I saw this.
It seems there is a vicious circle. Low B1 causes Sibo/bad digestive functions and vice versa.
Taurine = Anti-Pois

b_jim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1092
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2024, 03:26:56 PM »
Thiamine deficiency is definitely an excellent hypothesis. This fits with a lot of my problems.
Taurine = Anti-Pois

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6457
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2024, 04:07:17 PM »

Thiamine deficiency is definitely an excellent hypothesis. This fits with a lot of my problems.


b_jim, do you think there’s a relationship between thiamine deficiency and taurine?
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

b_jim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1092
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2024, 03:27:14 AM »
Yes, I think orgasm/ejaculation might deplete thiamine and derivative products and then taurine might help to return to normal levels. And both seems linked to Gaba too.

I saw possible links with Lyme, vagus nerve, Sibo/gut, alcohol sensitivity; sugar sensitivity .... lot of thing to study.

But the best thing is simply to try. Thiamine is not toxic. I'm taking mononitrate thiamin and thuamine rich food  fir now but I will start benfotiamine soon.
Taurine = Anti-Pois

Progecitor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 404
  • Aphrodisiacs are effective
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2024, 06:08:16 PM »
1995 animal study showed that taurine helps with normal level restauration of a form of thiamine (phosphate esters ) after its depletion by drug.

I think the combination of taurine + (benfo)thiamine will be my strategy  for 2025.

This combination sounds to be a good idea! Coincidentally a treatment scheme for diabetic neuropathy may actually work in the treatment of POIS as well. Besides benfotiamine some of the following could be also utilized. As an available PKC inhibitor lycopene could be used.
I have just begun on a higher dose (100-150 mg) of benfotiamine, but I can certainly see some benefit. Niacin, lycopene, R-ALA and aspirin are also quite useful. ALCAR was less so and unfortunately for some reason I still have trouble with taurine, but this may be specific to my case.

With reference to oxidative stress and the related pathways, the following new drugs are under study such as taurine, acetyl-L-carnitine, alpha lipoic acid, protein kinase C inhibitor (ruboxistaurin), aldose reductase inhibitors (fidarestat, epalrestat, ranirestat), advanced glycation end product inhibitors (benfotiamine, aspirin, aminoguanidine), the hexosamine pathway inhibitor (benfotiamine), inhibitor of poly ADP-ribose polymerase (nicotinamide), and angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitor (trandolapril).
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1155/2013/168039

You might be interested in what r/7e7en87 (https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/1guili4/comment/lyxhrh4/?context=3) has been sharing at the POIS subreddit. I see overlap with his and your contributions - you might have a similar POIS cluster like I do. His contributions have been huge for my own POIS. He recommends ALA, taurine, TTFD along with magnesium taurate, creatine, methyl donors, cordyceps (high quality brand like Oriveda), D3 and some others. He's constantly updating his stack. I have found him very useful.

We may not exactly know the exact root of POIS, but it surely involves a high level of oxidative stress. Thus any method to reduce this could be useful. For this reason antioxidants, anti-inflammatory agents, testosterone boosters, etc. could be useful. That is why I take about 50 supplements per day, but even so this is still insufficient. Unfortunately even if I find something that works well, drug resistance will soon turn it barely effective. This is also true for benfotiamine as it became less useful after a few days. Later I will try to increase the dose further to see if it changes anything.
Regarding some of the supplements you have mentioned I can also share some experience. Earlier I found ALA to be noticeably useful and R-lipoic acid (50 mg) was even more so, though still not spectacularly. I guess a greater dose would be more useful, but currently I just can’t afford it. I have been taking 2-3000 IU vitamin D every day for about a year without experiencing much, however after I increased the dose to 10000 IU, mostly after reading of your positive experience, I could certainly feel much better. Even so this lasted for only a few days and then I was feeling just as usual even though I kept taking 10000 IU daily for about a month, but then I switched back to 4000-6000 IU, which is the current regime. I have already tried magnesium taurate as well and I am rather sure that it makes my eye symptoms a little worse, without any particular benefit otherwise. Magnesium citrate was the only form that had an apparent positive impact. Taurine also causes bloodshot eyes and increases the burning pain, though it may have some anti-inflammatory effect at the same time. Generally it makes things worse though. I also had problems with creatine. I bought a new encapsulated product containing 650 mg creatine monohydrate per capsule. In early summer I had taken it for a few weeks, but even if I only take one capsule I can feel the enlarged lymphatic nodes in my breast getting harder and more solid. Fortunately it only caused chest inflammation one time and sometimes I could get away by taking daily two, but this side-effect is just too severe as chest inflammation is already one of the worst symptom for me. I can’t say I have seen much improvement on creatine otherwise, but it may possibly help with muscle fatigue. Even so I don’t think the scale is in its favor. I also took a box of cordyceps containing 200 mg extract. I took mostly one pill per day, but taking more did not change much. Of course it is likely that this product is not as good as the one from Oriveda. A discussion on reddit about this tells that the one from Oriveda contains more cordycepin and adenosine. This probably means that one of these or both are the active compounds. Adenosine isn’t discussed much, but the two sources for adenosine I could find are adenosine triphosphate (ATP) and adenosylcobalamin. I have already tried ATP, but it wasn’t particularly effective, thus cordycepin is most likely to be the active compound. I saw he mentioned apigenin as well, that I also believe to be beneficial, though not particularly so. In the past I took chamomile extract capsules and 10 mg of apigenin showed some benefit, though I haven’t tried as much as he had (50 mg). Nevertheless I have been consuming some amount of apigenin regularly as dried parsley is supposed to be the best natural source (45 mg/1g according to wikipedia) and I use it as a spice rather frequently. However I couldn’t see it making a particular difference. I also drink mixed herbal teas regularly and some of them also contain apigenin. A few ones I can mention: chamomile, immortelle, blessed thistle, chasteberry, common verbena, common agrimony, white dead nettle, greater burdock root, dill, horsetail, yarrows. Some of these were quite useful, though it is not clear how much apigenin contributed to the overall effect. I also take NAC (500 mg) and Q10 (100 mg) on a daily basis. I think Q10 helps more, but its efficacy was reduced over time. I would also take more Q10 if it only wasn’t so expensive. I have very varied results with B-vitamins, that I will discuss later in my personal thread. Well, the short version is that B1, B3 and B12 appears to be useful, B2 and B5 doesn’t seem to make much of a difference, while B7 and B9 appears to be harmful in a greater dose. Regarding B6 P-5-P seems to be a little useful, while I suspect pyridoxine hydrochloride to be harmful in a greater amount.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2024, 06:22:04 PM by Progecitor »
The cause is probably a combination of autoimmunity and SASP leading to excessive oxidative stress and lipid peroxidation. Antioxidants, testosterone, NO and norepinephrine boosters, ERbeta, sigma-1, SIRT-1 and dopamine agonists, PDE4, PDE5 inhibitors and CD36 antagonists are effective.

Sisyphus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2024, 03:37:46 PM »
I'm sorry to hear you feel you need to take 50+ supplements and still don't feel well.

Everyone is different and my approach is pretty much the opposite, I tend to avoid supplements as much as possible. I must admit though that I've not cured my pois with my approach.

I have however been taking thiamine (relatively low dose) daily for 4 months now and I can make the same report back as before that it seems to have reduced my fatigue, not made any difference to other pois symptoms and has given me a few mild side effects. So, what to do next?

I could continue with the same thiamine dose, assume it's the reason for reduced fatigue and settle for what I've achieved.
or I could increase thiamine dosage as others have done to see if a higher dose helps with other pois symptoms.
or I could stop thiamine for a while and watch to see if fatigue returns and side effects go away.

I think I am leaning towards the last option. I think this would make a better experiment with thiamine. If my fatigue completely returns, I'll know it was more than likely the thiamine which I was benefitting from. Similarly with the side effects. If I'm going to keep taking thiamine long term, I want to be sure it's making the difference. I will think about it and decide over the next few weeks.

I'm interested in b_jim's comments on taurine + thiamine so I think I'll be reading a bit about that too but I'm not taking taurine at the moment

Otherwise, the only supplement I continue to take daily is Vitamin D3 (+K2) which was low in the past but in the normal range these days. ( for things like omega 3 supplement, I prefer to eat a can of sardines etc)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2024, 03:49:27 PM by Sisyphus »

b_jim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1092
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #78 on: December 17, 2024, 02:58:29 AM »
I agree about supplements the less is the best and natural solutions should be preferred. I prefer to take sardines than a taurine cap. But to have the same effect I need at least 150/200g when a cap is so easy to take. And without the supplement I wouldn't understand the fish effect on my Pois.
But until we fully understand how it works supplements are necessary.
I think it's important to test 1 by 1 and for a while to eliminate placebo effect which is very important to us.
Taurine = Anti-Pois

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6457
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: Thiamine Megadoses (Vitamin B1) and Thiamine Analogs
« Reply #79 on: December 17, 2024, 04:59:10 PM »
I agree about supplements the less is the best and natural solutions should be preferred. I prefer to take sardines than a taurine cap. But to have the same effect I need at least 150/200g when a cap is so easy to take. And without the supplement I wouldn't understand the fish effect on my Pois.
But until we fully understand how it works supplements are necessary.
I think it's important to test 1 by 1 and for a while to eliminate placebo effect which is very important to us.

Thanks, b_jim
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business