Did I miss 'the' thread on NE's - is that why nobody replies?

[Michael218]

Okay great, we are on the same page with disclosure... I never planned to mention the specific perceived trigger but to keep it vague without being dishonest.

Sorry to hear that it's only been 3 years, I bet they have been great though and you must have a rare appreciation for life that few people have these days. I can sense that in your responses and willingness to help others.

I am sure the Quercetain, Peppered Curcumin and Flaxseed combined with Nurofen did the trick. I have never not had shocking anxiety on my 2nd day of POIS. Unless there are residual effects from the previous night (release was Friday 11 pm and the NE took place Sunday at 5 am. The B's would be out of the system by then right? Read somewhere in this forum they are out of the body in 6 hours or so, if I remember correctly. I didn't take any B supplements on Saturday.

Interesting anyway. Will keep testing. At least for now I won't be terrified by the next NE. If it's placebo than fantastic, it simply shows me the perceived expected anxiety is causing my actual anxiety and I will simply work on remaining mindful in this period. Don't think so though, there's a clear difference it seems in my view about anxiety caused by an imbalance and natural anxiety.

Anyway, work in progress... grateful for your response as always Quantum. If in fact your prepack is helping reduce NE symptoms by even half, you have changed another person's life completely... either way, can't thank you enough.

All the best there!

[Quantum]

Michael,

I am very grateful for your kind words.  I am happy that what I have found can be helpful for others, and yes, I am happy to help others, like you have figured out.  Not a lot of members have tried my pre-pack method so far, but in the last year, some have, like yourself, and have reported good results.


You are right about the B vitamins, they are water-soluble, so the excess do not gather in the body, but is excreted in the urine, as you can see by the deep yellow color of it in the hours following the uptake.   After 6 to 8 hours, not much effect remains, unless you use an extended release formula.

[romies]

Romies, I'll read into your prepack, although from what I skimmed through, it sounds like you take yours daily? Perhaps was wrong, will have another read over your post.

Michael218,
Sorry for missing your posts earlier. I hope you are feeling better now.

About my pre-pack: I don't not take it daily.  It is only used before having sex, immediately after an NE (I keep an emergency pack on my night-stand), and before weight training (a simpler version: Curcumin, Quercetin, sometimes Celebrex)

About Clarityne-D: my experiences with the 12 hour-release was too harsh. But maybe the Australian formulation has a different drug delivery mechanism, so it could be different. In the US, the 24-hour version is much smoother than the 12-hr version.
I am not sure Claritin itself is that important. Sudafed (the D part of Sudafed) (even the instant release version) spread out during the day may be sufficient.

Sudafed does have side effect, increased blood pressure and heart rate for example. So it is not for everyone. And I will skip it if I don't have any mission critical task on that day.

About Flaxseed oil vs. Fish oil, see the page 48 and 49 of the following book with references to peer-reviewed journals.
https://books.google.com/books?id=v6fuDQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA1&dq=enteroimmunology&pg=PA48#v=onepage&q=enteroimmunology&f=false
The short answer to your question is
1. if you are already eating a lot of Omega-6 fatty acid, flaxseed oil (ALA) does not help much.
2. flaxseed oil is very hard to store, too easily oxidized
3. you may need 1 gram of EPA+DHA a day for 30-60 days, which translates to 2-3 gram of fish oil a day (fish oil is not 100% EPA+DHA).

"leftover POIS symptoms" after an NE.
I found that I sometimes need 1-2 5HTP (12-hr time-released) tablets to give me energy after an NE. As long as you are not on any SSRI, 5-HTP should be pretty safe for 1-2 days. You might have been depleted of typtophan after an NE without a pre-pack. Anxiety is often associated with low serotonin (typtophan --> 5htp --> serotonin (5ht))

[Michael218]

Quantum & Romies - thanks for the replies.

Romies, you mention "sometimes" Celebrex? Celebrex is prescription here. Am curious why you only use it sometimes - how are your results with only the Curcumin and Quercetain excluding Celebrex? Good enough? As for Sudafed, I took it for a cold last week and it made me feel very strange. Unless the symptoms are terrible after the next NE and the Curcumin, Quercetain & Nurofen aren't effective, I may give it a try. 5-HTP is expensive here and isn't found in many stores for legal reasons. Just ordered Natrol 100 mg slow release off iHerb (thanks for noting the brand and details Romies). I will go for the 100 mg considering my mental symptoms are shocking.

Is iHerb a reliable source of vitamins/supplements? I am concerned there are fakes around. Have spent way too much abroad in countries within Asia and South America where they have counterfeits everywhere and you need to be very careful. Perhaps people can recommend a reliable store? Not sure about the advertising rules on this forum, but surely a link to a reputable online store that ships internationally is fair game considering the degree of collective suffering experienced here.

Is there any exciting research going on about POIS that people are waiting on? I wouldn't have a clue.

[romies]

Romies, you mention "sometimes" Celebrex? Celebrex is prescription here. Am curious why you only use it sometimes - how are your results with only the Curcumin and Quercetain excluding Celebrex? Good enough?

Yes, Celebrex is also Rx-only in the US, where I am based. I use it perhaps 30-40% of the time, precisely because it is a Rx-med with known side effects.

If I am not sleep deprived, not having a recent O, and I don't have a stressful day the day after (meaning I can live with 10-20% of the symptoms), I would just go with Curcumin and Quercetin only. You need COX2 for PGF2alpha for muscle growth, so I don't want to throw the baby away with the bath water.

As for Sudafed, I took it for a cold last week and it made me feel very strange. Unless the symptoms are terrible after the next NE and the Curcumin, Quercetain & Nurofen aren't effective, I may give it a try.

There are many different formulation of Sudafed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudafed
I wonder whether yours has phenylephrine instead.

For me, the active ingredient in Claritin D is Pseudoephedrine. If you don't have the 24-hr time-released Pseudoephedrine, I would say a 60mg instant release taken at morning, noon and late afternoon maybe sufficient. I metabolize Pseudoephedrine pretty quickly, in 4-5 hrs. But if you were a slow metabolizer, you may want to skip the afternoon dose.

Even though Pseudoephedrine is OTC, it is "scheduled listed chemical product" in the US. So I have to give my driver's license to the pharmacist for logging when buying it. It is probably treated the same way in Australia. But, you don't need to consume that many per month. For me, a pack last for several months.

And for non-NE Os, I don't need Pseudoephedrine.

5-HTP is expensive here and isn't found in many stores for legal reasons. Just ordered Natrol 100 mg slow release off iHerb (thanks for noting the brand and details Romies). I will go for the 100 mg considering my mental symptoms are shocking.

Natrol 100mg 12hrs is what I am taking too.

When I am not in a POIS-state (i.e. not tryptophan/5htp depleted), 5-htp makes me sleepy, because it gets converted to Melatonin.

When I am in a POIS state, 5htp gets converted to serotonin, and gives me the energy that coffee/tea cannot deliver.

You use the different to tell whether your POIS is related to TDO/IDO activation which depletes tryptophan and serotonin.

Is iHerb a reliable source of vitamins/supplements? I am concerned there are fakes around. Have spent way too much abroad in countries within Asia and South America where they have counterfeits everywhere and you need to be very careful. Perhaps people can recommend a reliable store? Not sure about the advertising rules on this forum, but surely a link to a reputable online store that ships internationally is fair game considering the degree of collective suffering experienced here.

Not sure about iHerb. Does Amazon deliver to Australia?

[Quantum]

Quantum & Romies - thanks for the replies.

Is iHerb a reliable source of vitamins/supplements? I am concerned there are fakes around. Have spent way too much abroad in countries within Asia and South America where they have counterfeits everywhere and you need to be very careful. Perhaps people can recommend a reliable store? Not sure about the advertising rules on this forum, but surely a link to a reputable online store that ships internationally is fair game considering the degree of collective suffering experienced here.

I ordered once from iHerbs and it was O.K.   But I have found since https://www.vitacost.com/, and I like their service, their prices, large inventory, efficient shipping, and their private brands products, and have been using this intermet store for about 2 to 3 years now.
( disclaimer:  I have no financial interest in vitacost.com and I am not linked to them in any way other than being a customer)

They ship in 160 countries ( https://www.vitacost.com/international-shipping ), but there are some restrictions linked to your own country regulations.  When this happens, you are warned instantly at check out, which I like because it makes things clear and avoids future complications ( for example, some product cannot be shipped here in Canada in quantity exceeding one month supply, and I am warned at check out, so I can modify my order accordingly before confirmation of the order.  Some products can simply not be shipped to Canada, and I am warned as well, and I must delete them from my cart in order to be able to proceed further.).

Is there any exciting research going on about POIS that people are waiting on? I wouldn't have a clue.

For clinical study/formal medical research, nothing new for now.

I think this is on this forum lately that very valuable posts have been made about POIS 

[Michael218]

Thanks guys. Sounds good Romies, am looking forward to receiving the 5htp, hopefully it arrives given Australia's regulations but 1 bottle of it should slip through customs. Lacking a bit in energy today and mood (after last night's 'o'), so hopefully it will help with that.

So far continued success with the B's. Very slight anxiety today and a bit lacking in energy after last night, but an 80% reduction overall which is great.

Quantum, is it safe to take these high potency B vitamins once a week or so? I also wonder, if in a relationship, in the beginning, things happen more regularly... people here have mentioned taking the B1, 6, 12 daily enables them to release more often without worrying about the timing and empty stomach? But is that safe, even to do that in the first few weeks of a relationship? Challenges eh.

Gotta be careful, there is about 50 mg of B6 in this magnesium supplement, and took 2 of those last night a few hours apart, along with the high potency B6 on its own. Only remembered later the magnesium has B6 too. I believe this can be potentially harmful to take too much B6.

Bit confused as to the 'fasting' prior to o, given that it's not sure if the B3 is doing the work or the B1, 6, 12 or all. Been fasting 2 hours lately and haven't had any real issues.

Your prepack Quantum/Romies certainly simplifies things, if it works for people.

[Michael218]

P.S thanks for the sites! Will look at Vitacost next order. Sounds great. Amazon am a little sceptical due to it being private sellers... who knows where they store it, how long for, etc? May be worth a try though if the ratings are good for the seller. Will wait and see. We take these vitamins so often and for the long term so I guess cost effectiveness is a factor.

Cheers.

[Quantum]

Quantum, is it safe to take these high potency B vitamins once a week or so? I also wonder, if in a relationship, in the beginning, things happen more regularly... people here have mentioned taking the B1, 6, 12 daily enables them to release more often without worrying about the timing and empty stomach? But is that safe, even to do that in the first few weeks of a relationship? Challenges eh.

Gotta be careful, there is about 50 mg of B6 in this magnesium supplement, and took 2 of those last night a few hours apart, along with the high potency B6 on its own. Only remembered later the magnesium has B6 too. I believe this can be potentially harmful to take too much B6.

Bit confused as to the 'fasting' prior to o, given that it's not sure if the B3 is doing the work or the B1, 6, 12 or all. Been fasting 2 hours lately and haven't had any real issues.

Your prepack Quantum/Romies certainly simplifies things, if it works for people.

Hi Michael,

This link about B6 should help you see what fits for you:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16320662  .

Also, I think it should be best for you to find a source of magnesium that has no B6 in it, that would make your dosing easier, and would eliminate any risk of confusion.


I'm glad that the pre-pack simplifies your life.   You mention the early stage of a relationship.  Being in a relationship, either at early stage, or 26 years later ( in my situation), we have to be conscious that POIS remains of source of complications.  Even with an efficient pre-pack,  POIS stays rather complicated and can get in the way of spontaneity.  POIS also puts a limit on the frequency, depending of the protection limit your control method brings you ( usually, even with a good relief method, sky is not the limit...), and that can be bothersome and become a problem if there are more releases in the same week.  Note that even for guys with no POIS, there is always a personal limit anyway as to how many times you can have a release per day and per week - humans are not machines - but POIS sufferers are far more limited for obvious reasons.

Like I have already said, a relationship when you have POIS, if you want it to last more than a few months or so, would be with a person who is more centered on the heart than on sex, and has an intelligence above average  ( I know, I know, it's not that easy to find......).  If you are with a closed-minded person, who is rather selfish, and have a high libido,  you will have rather useless and frequent arguments, or you will try to "follow the rhythm" and your sexual drive, and end up with a constant hellish life, having significant POIS symptoms most of the time.  It's like trading almost everything else in your life for a more intense sexual life. In both of the above cases, I predict a short-lived relationship.

It's tougher when you are younger to stay put with a less frequent sexual activity, even when in couple, but there is some give and take, because POIS symptoms are a bit easier to go through when you are young ( and you are sometime in vacations. too, and that simplifies things a lot !)   However, it's easier to accept a less intense sexual life as you age, and overall, you have a much more satisfying life, with kids and a family life, a social life with friends, sports, a professional life, and so on.  Just my opinion, which is based 'just' on near 40 years of POIS

[Michael218]

Hi Quantum - I definitely see it the same way. That was not really the essence of the question, the issue was more to avoid POIS at the beginning of a relationship.

1.) Avoiding POIS in the very first 2-4 weeks, whereby things may eventuate relatively more spontaneously.

2.) One wouldn't reveal POIS at the very beginning of any relationship, so if you do experience symptoms in those first few weeks as you get to know the other person, you may be perceived as 'off key' in those few days. So the idea is to avoid POIS symptoms from getting in the way of a newly developing relationship in those first few weeks where everything is more magnified in a relationship, until the other person has a deeper understanding of who you are. The scenario assumes there is depth and character in the other person, and the relationship has nothing to do with sex. Ideally that deeper understanding would already be there at the time when things progress sexually, but that isn't always the case...

Interesting to read your response though, you raise good points! And thanks for the B6, I planned to buy a new Magnesium free of B6 after this monster box of pills is used up anyway.

Thanks!

[Michael218]

Holy crap. Thanks for the link Quantum, much needed wake up call on the B6 early in the piece. Life saver. Cheers!

[Michael218]

Hi guys, just wondering - what supplements exactly are you guys taking to get rid of remaining 10-20% symptoms if they appear and how often are you taking them? Particularly the anxiety/mental symptoms...

[Quantum]

Hi Michael,

I can quote what I wrote in the post describing my method of managing my symptoms, it is still valid to this day:

For low blood pressure: Currently, I have no more low blood pressure problems if I take my pre-pack correctly.  However, If I notice after release that my BP is becoming borderline low ( which is for me, something like 107/68), I take some rosemary or some green tea extract, or sometime another 25mg of 5-HTP with some green tea extract.  Having no more hypotension and extreme fatigue is in itself a great, great success for me in POIS control, and can be accounted as a 50% relief at least.  Hypotension has been causing me a loooooot of fatigue, lightheadedness, intolerance to exercise, cold sweat, depressive feelings,  sense of powerlessness, trouble going through my day at work, and so on ….

For residual fatigue : even if I have no hypotension ( low blood pressure), I can sometime feel a certain level of fatigue, even if I have taken my pEp (pre-pack). I then take one or two of the following, at moderate dose, which are essentially antioxidants and or IDO or TDO inhibitors:  ginkgo biloba, vitamin C, grape seed extract, milk thistle,  Vitalux\AREDS blend of antioxydants (cheap and easily found in pharmacies as they are used as eye vitamins, against age-related macular degeneration - ARMD ),  lycopene, green tea extract, Moducare, peppered turmeric, or other good antioxidants blend, like SuperVision, from Webber Naturals.

For residual anxiety, irritability, and other emotional symptoms:   I will add some omega-3, some flaxseed oil, some l-theanine, some other magnesium, or other NMDAR antagonists, like taurine and  zinc .   If it is near bedtime, I can use Relora or Passionflower, but not during the day, they cause me too much drowsiness.

I say that I take "other antioxidants".  you can include in that the pine bark extract talked about lately on the forum, it works well.  I have bought pomegranate extract last year and it is a valuable antioxidant too.  Astaxanthin is another very good antioxidant I use.

those I have mentioned for anxiety are really those who work best for me:   omega-3, flaxseed oil, L-theanine, magnesium, taurine, etc...  along with other things that helps, like epsom salts bath  ( which is a good way to absorb magnesium, because epsom is composed of sulfate magnesium ), meditation, exercise, etc...  GABA supplement capsules are good too, but in the evening, because I feel they make me a bit drowsy, like valerian, passiflora, or Relora.


Rosemary is mentioned for my low blood pressure, but is also good for my anxiety.

Curcumin is mentioned for fatigue, but is also good for my anxiety.

I take some supplements every 3 to 4 hours as needed, and I alternate, I do not take the same as previous dose.

[romies]

Hi guys, just wondering - what supplements exactly are you guys taking to get rid of remaining 10-20% symptoms if they appear and how often are you taking them? Particularly the anxiety/mental symptoms...

For me, the remaining anxiety/mood/fatigue have two possibilities (can be different on different days).

1.If my OCD tendency goes up, and mood is down, I am probably in a low-serotonin state. 5-HTP is helpful for me. In the worst case, I will need 2 doses of 200mg timed-release 5htp, 12 hr apart, in addition to the initial dose after an NE.

If a dose 5-htp makes you sleepy (because of the melatonin converted from serotonin), then you don't need any more 5htp dose for that particular NE-POIS episode

2. If there is no OCD tendency, and mood is okay. All the NMDAR antagonists quantum suggested would do. But they do make me drowsy, so I usually just make sure I am not Mg-deficient when I might have a NE.

Mg-Malate is one of the few Mg supplement that energizes me, probably due to the malic acid in it.

[Michael218]

Thanks for that guys. Appreciate it. In another POIS cycle, had a planned release with prepack at about 9-10 pm which was fine but then a NE at 1 am. How lucky. Feels like it's going to be a heavy cycle for 2-3 days.

I read that Daveman had success taking Niacin in POIS and having another orgasm 1 hr after as his normal routine and it takes him out of POIS.

I wonder if it's worth trying... my prepack is about 10-12 pills and they are maximum doses eg. B6 I take 200 mg, Niacinamide 500 mg, B12 1000 mcg, etc.

Too much to do that twice in less than 24 hours as a 1-off?

[Michael218]

Also, noticed you guys take straight magnesium. Most magnesium here contains some B6 to help absorb the magnesium - so how do you ensure your magnesium capsule is absorbed well? I bought a plain magnesium capsule with no B6, so I am curious about this...

[Quantum]

Hi Michael,

Well, sadly, NEs are not always predictable, and you are still young enough to have a NE just following a recent release.   

About the niacin and another O, I am not the one who would try this kind of gamble, and play "double or quit" with another O.  You do what you think is the best for you, but I usually lean on the safe side.   3 releases in 2 days will be hard on you if the gamble do not pay off. ( At any rate, you should read this detailed message by Observer, about this protocol, as well as my comment just following it:  http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2481.msg21604#msg21604 )

About magnesium, I have been using it for decades ( with no B6).  In fact, for years, magnesium has been the only anti-POIS tool I had ( remember that I have been alone with POIS for 37 years or so before finding this forum).  So, I would say, I know my magnesium was absorbed because it was relieving my symptoms.  Of course, a part of it was not, and that is what causes loose stools.  Now that I have a lot of anti-POIS tools in my pack, I do not have to take high and frequent magnesium doses.  I have less side effects, and also, much better relief.   Maybe, If I had taken preparations of magnesium with B6, I may have taken less magnesium to get a relief, who knows.... but here in Canada, it is not common to have B6/Magnesium preparations.

[Michael218]

Thanks for the prompt and much needed reply while in POIS. Today is a bit of a struggle, I feel mentally weak, slow memory recall, fogged, and have less patience than normal.

It's a gamble for this POIS cycle but if proven effective, it would be used for all future NE's, in which case it is definitely worth trying. That being said, I need to be alert for tomorrow so I won't take the risk. I really hope to get more mental relief from your curcumin/5-htp/quercetain/magnesium/ibprofen combo so that tomorrow, which is usually my POIS doomsday,  it will be less severe. How on earth will I restore brain function, will be popping a shitload of pulls today to try to reduce the inflammation and restore a stable mind.

Taking your combo 2-3 times a day won't kill us if done once in a while (hopefully).

Thanks for your info re magnesium - I have 500mg magnesium chelate (says to take up to 3 capsules twice daily with food). I find it confusing though with magnesium, there are different variations. Mine is natures own and contains "magnesium amino acid chelate 500 mg equiv. To elemental magnesium 100 mg" as stated on the bottle. So I guess it's really only 100 mg.

[Michael218]

Point taken with Observer's post, re if Niacin doesn't work for you it won't work afterwards. Obviously you would apply your own prepack variation for the test.

To me, the basic principle makes sense. I sense my POIS is the brain getting overstimulated at orgasm, and can feel it - a tingly, buzzing brain followed by inflammation. So if you're in POIS, it seems logical to me to make your mind go through the same process to awaken and stimulate your neurotransmitters again to that pre-orgasm point, but this time the protection of the pre-pack preventing the extreme high dropping to an extreme low immediately after ejaculation - returning you to your normal state.

Any record of other pre-pack users trying this successfully? Apart from Niacin users?

[Quantum]

Point taken with Observer's post, re if Niacin doesn't work for you it won't work afterwards. Obviously you would apply your own prepack variation for the test.

To me, the basic principle makes sense. I sense my POIS is the brain getting overstimulated at orgasm, and can feel it - a tingly, buzzing brain followed by inflammation. So if you're in POIS, it seems logical to me to make your mind go through the same process to awaken and stimulate your neurotransmitters again to that pre-orgasm point, but this time the protection of the pre-pack preventing the extreme high dropping to an extreme low immediately after ejaculation - returning you to your normal state.

Any record of other pre-pack users trying this successfully? Apart from Niacin users?

Hi Michael,

I do not think my pre-pack would have the same effect that niacin does for a "second E after a previous one", I feel like it could be something specific to niacin.  For me, while in POIS, a second release have always lead to amplification of symptoms.  I never tried a second E after taking a pre-pack after the first, because I always take my pre-pack, either before, which is clearly the best, or minutes after a release if I have been"caught" by surprise because of a spontaneous "event" with my spouse.  For NE, I aslo take my pre-pack as soon as I can... the relief I get this way is enough, I wouldn't try another release to see what would happen... If i would be in my 20s or 30s, I may have tried, but a hard POIS cycle may be tougher to get through when over 50, I guess.

It would be interesting to have other testimonies about this approach,  for those who see in this an interesting possibility for NE management ( because otherwise, I think a pre-pack is clearly a better and simpler approach).

Regarding the different magnesium salts, the concentration is in salt weight, not in elemental weight, so it is good to have the elemental magnesium equivalence per tablet.   If you want more info, you can go to https://www.paleohacks.com/magnesium/help-me-figure-out-magnesium-how-to-calculate-elemental-magnesium-17726 ( I didn't double check the mg equivalence given there, but it seems ok).


Curcumin, magnesium, and the like are quite safe to use, and recommended dosage usually allow for repeat in the same day.  Let me know what results you have with your "post-packs".