Author Topic: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms  (Read 19639 times)

demografx

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2016, 07:03:17 PM »
Hi, trustheprocess, and thanks for joining the conversation on the forum !

Ditto!
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

trusttheprocess

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2016, 08:01:39 AM »
Hi, trustheprocess, and thanks for joining the conversation on the forum !

I think it is interesting to see that,yes, there are POIS sufferers who gets better with exercise, and other, not, and may even have mild symptoms. 

However, what I have after sport is very far from a full blast POIS attack.  It is mostly fatigue, and it last for about 24 hours.   

When I use to have severe POIS attack, it was even impossible for me to do any exercise in the first 24 hours.  But if I would do some sport at the end of the second day, it would help to recover from POIS.  I had less fatigue from sport than I had from a full POIS attack, so that was ok for me. Now that I have a much better control on my POIS symptoms, my fatigue after sport becomes more obvious.

Thanks for the welcome Quantum and demografx, and thanks for everything you guys have done with POIS center.  POIS is a very confusing and complex syndrome, but I feel like I finally know how to treat it, thanks to this website and your POIS types chart Quantum.

I've tried most of the treatments on that chart, most of them helped a lot but some symptoms would would still remain.   I would still have a huge drop in energy for at least 3 days (starting when I went to sleep) and would always have trouble sleeping.  The most helpful treatment for POIS was always Benedryl, so I figured I had the anti-histamine type and started reading older posts from kurtosis about methylation.

I was so convinced by his posts that I had problems with methylation that I ordered 23andme, and was not surprised to find numerous defects in methylation genes, but was surprised to find many defects in histamine clearance (DAO, HNMT, MAOA, PEMT) as well as other genes that I believe are involved in POIS for me (VDR, NOS1).  I have more info on these if anyone is interested in genetic components that could be causing or contributing to POIS. In attempts to treat POIS I've started on methylation supplements, and I'm waiting until the next report comes out to order new supplements (I have a list of around 30 that could help, just a matter of narrowing it down).  I've tried Zyrtec everyday for around a month and 50-75 mg of benedryl after O and it reduced my symptoms probably 50% and cut my recovery time in half, although I still have pretty strong anxiety and fatigue.  The antihistamines are helping me block the effects of some of the histamine, but I still think I have a reduced ability to clear histamine and my body tries to compensate by releasing adrenaline constantly, so even though I am extremely tired I'm still wired.

This means I can still exercise during POIS, but I usually like to wait until day two or three because it's extremely hard and tiring day one and sometimes two, and doesn't seem to benefit me as much because I think it just leads to more adrenaline being released.  My experience with exercise has been very similar to joelawerence's.  I've been regularly exercising for the last 5 years, and I just learned I had POIS 3 years ago, so since then I've been working out more intensely as it's been my best treatment for POIS and the only thing that could really help my energy levels.  Also, like joelawerence, I've started to slip in my workouts and I feel like my POIS is getting worse (around one 30 min workout a week over the last few months, due to school and illnesses).

I'm really glad you brought this topic up Quantum, because it's made me read up on mast cells and exercise, and I think that the fact that neuropeptides released along with adrenaline (along with many other neurotransmitters) can activate mast cells is significant.  I think this could lead explain why POIS has been very hard to treat for me.  After orgasm not only is the antigen activating mast cells, releasing histamine (and other mediators), but adrenaline, superoxide, and other neurotransmitters activate mast cells as well, releasing histamine.  With my histamine clearance issues my body would probably release a lot of adrenaline as a response to this histamine released during O, leading to a cycle that would explain why POIS used to last for like 10 days for me and was completely draining.  It would also explain the symptoms of mast cell activation syndrome (for me: brain fog, short term memory dysfunction, difficulty with recalling words, headaches, congestion, coughing, wheezing, easy bruising, pale complexion, light headedness, dizziness, gastrointestinal symptoms).

joelawerence

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2016, 10:39:30 AM »
Hi, trustheprocess, and thanks for joining the conversation on the forum !

I think it is interesting to see that,yes, there are POIS sufferers who gets better with exercise, and other, not, and may even have mild symptoms. 

However, what I have after sport is very far from a full blast POIS attack.  It is mostly fatigue, and it last for about 24 hours.   

When I use to have severe POIS attack, it was even impossible for me to do any exercise in the first 24 hours.  But if I would do some sport at the end of the second day, it would help to recover from POIS.  I had less fatigue from sport than I had from a full POIS attack, so that was ok for me. Now that I have a much better control on my POIS symptoms, my fatigue after sport becomes more obvious.

Thanks for the welcome Quantum and demografx, and thanks for everything you guys have done with POIS center.  POIS is a very confusing and complex syndrome, but I feel like I finally know how to treat it, thanks to this website and your POIS types chart Quantum.

I've tried most of the treatments on that chart, most of them helped a lot but some symptoms would would still remain.   I would still have a huge drop in energy for at least 3 days (starting when I went to sleep) and would always have trouble sleeping.  The most helpful treatment for POIS was always Benedryl, so I figured I had the anti-histamine type and started reading older posts from kurtosis about methylation.

I was so convinced by his posts that I had problems with methylation that I ordered 23andme, and was not surprised to find numerous defects in methylation genes, but was surprised to find many defects in histamine clearance (DAO, HNMT, MAOA, PEMT) as well as other genes that I believe are involved in POIS for me (VDR, NOS1).  I have more info on these if anyone is interested in genetic components that could be causing or contributing to POIS. In attempts to treat POIS I've started on methylation supplements, and I'm waiting until the next report comes out to order new supplements (I have a list of around 30 that could help, just a matter of narrowing it down).  I've tried Zyrtec everyday for around a month and 50-75 mg of benedryl after O and it reduced my symptoms probably 50% and cut my recovery time in half, although I still have pretty strong anxiety and fatigue.  The antihistamines are helping me block the effects of some of the histamine, but I still think I have a reduced ability to clear histamine and my body tries to compensate by releasing adrenaline constantly, so even though I am extremely tired I'm still wired.

This means I can still exercise during POIS, but I usually like to wait until day two or three because it's extremely hard and tiring day one and sometimes two, and doesn't seem to benefit me as much because I think it just leads to more adrenaline being released.  My experience with exercise has been very similar to joelawerence's.  I've been regularly exercising for the last 5 years, and I just learned I had POIS 3 years ago, so since then I've been working out more intensely as it's been my best treatment for POIS and the only thing that could really help my energy levels.  Also, like joelawerence, I've started to slip in my workouts and I feel like my POIS is getting worse (around one 30 min workout a week over the last few months, due to school and illnesses).

I'm really glad you brought this topic up Quantum, because it's made me read up on mast cells and exercise, and I think that the fact that neuropeptides released along with adrenaline (along with many other neurotransmitters) can activate mast cells is significant.  I think this could lead explain why POIS has been very hard to treat for me.  After orgasm not only is the antigen activating mast cells, releasing histamine (and other mediators), but adrenaline, superoxide, and other neurotransmitters activate mast cells as well, releasing histamine.  With my histamine clearance issues my body would probably release a lot of adrenaline as a response to this histamine released during O, leading to a cycle that would explain why POIS used to last for like 10 days for me and was completely draining.  It would also explain the symptoms of mast cell activation syndrome (for me: brain fog, short term memory dysfunction, difficulty with recalling words, headaches, congestion, coughing, wheezing, easy bruising, pale complexion, light headedness, dizziness, gastrointestinal symptoms).

Welcome to forum, trusttheprocess!

It is very interesting that you have done genetic analysis and it is pointing towards some genetic defencies in you, some of which may be common to others with POIS. I don?t how difficult it is, but it would be very helpful if you can post some of you results here so that we can get an idea of the deficiencies and can also know what the testing involves. If it is useful I may also get tested and see if it shows any common deficiency.
33 years old, POIS for around 12 years with increasing severity.
Major symptoms - Severe fatigue, back pain, unrefreshed even after 9+ hours sleep, pain behind eyes, very dry face, bald head with inflamed scalp, digestion issues and constipation. Very low testosterone and high glucose in blood tests

demografx

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2016, 01:28:32 PM »
I am surprised though that demografx has mentioned exercise increased his POIS.

Thanks, joelawerence. Actually, the symptoms-after-exercise were a little different from POIS symptoms. And they stood on their own, apart from POIS/sex. And the symptoms didn't last for DAYS, like POIS.

My exercise-induced symptoms, terrible as they were, only lasted about 5-6 hours, not for days as they did with POIS.

20 minutes of cardiovascular exercise in the morning could easily wreck the entire day.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 01:36:39 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

trusttheprocess

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2016, 03:46:27 PM »
joelawerence, here were the results of my 23andme test relating to histamine clearance (genes: http://mthfr.net/histamine-intolerance-mthfr-and-methylation/2015/06/11/) and immune function (I picked a few genes that could relate to POIS). Gene reports from dna report website livewello, which gathers data from dbSNP, the genetics database of the ncbi.gov website.  I don't really know the best way to interpret this data so I just included livewello's population statistics for each gene after its genotype, the lower the percent the more rare mutations are in that gene.

Histamine Clearance
- MTHFR:  17 of 34 genes had a minor (risk) allele
15 were normal (57%), 2 were heterozygous (33%, one of the SNPs was notable, C677T, results in a 35% reduction in MTHFR activity)
- DAO: 6 of 17 genes had a minor (risk) allele
They were all heterozygous (30%)
- HNMT:  24 of 40 genes had a minor (risk) allele
5 genes were normal (53%), 16 of them were heterozygous (35%), 3 were homozygous (12%)
MAOA: 17 of 51 genes had a minor (risk) allele
5 normal (50%), 12 hemizygous (10%)
- PEMT: 35 of 58 genes had a minor (risk) allele
20 were normal (30%), 15 were homozygous (24%)

Immune function
HLA: 5 of 6 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
1 was normal (44%), 3 were heterozygous (36%), 1 was homozygous (19%)
IRF5: 7 of 10 genes had a minor (risk) allele
2 were normal (31%), 5 were homozygous (20%)
IFIH1: 1 of 1 gene had a minor (risk) allele
1 was homozygous (35%)
SOCS1: 2 of 2 genes had a minor (risk) allele
2 were homozygous (8%)
NOS1: 47 of 71 genes had a minor (risk) allele
27 were normal (61%), 12 were heterozygous (32%), 8 were homozygous (7%)
NOS2: 25 of 31 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
16 were normal (48%), 1 was heterozygous (38%), 6 were homozygous (12%)
SOD3: 4 of 15 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
2 were normal (16%), 2 were heterozygous (43%)
NDUFS7: 4 of 9 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
1 was normal (45%), 3 were homozygous (21%)
IL1B:  8 of 10 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
4 were normal (55%), 4 were heterozygous (35%)
IL23R: 30 of 45 genes
15 were normal (64%), 14 were heterozygous (29%), 1 was homozygous (7%)

Quantum

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2016, 01:39:15 PM »
joelawerence, here were the results of my 23andme test relating to histamine clearance (genes: http://mthfr.net/histamine-intolerance-mthfr-and-methylation/2015/06/11/) and immune function (I picked a few genes that could relate to POIS). Gene reports from dna report website livewello, which gathers data from dbSNP, the genetics database of the ncbi.gov website.  I don't really know the best way to interpret this data so I just included livewello's population statistics for each gene after its genotype, the lower the percent the more rare mutations are in that gene.

Histamine Clearance
- MTHFR:  17 of 34 genes had a minor (risk) allele
15 were normal (57%), 2 were heterozygous (33%, one of the SNPs was notable, C677T, results in a 35% reduction in MTHFR activity)
- DAO: 6 of 17 genes had a minor (risk) allele
They were all heterozygous (30%)
- HNMT:  24 of 40 genes had a minor (risk) allele
5 genes were normal (53%), 16 of them were heterozygous (35%), 3 were homozygous (12%)
MAOA: 17 of 51 genes had a minor (risk) allele
5 normal (50%), 12 hemizygous (10%)
- PEMT: 35 of 58 genes had a minor (risk) allele
20 were normal (30%), 15 were homozygous (24%)

Immune function
HLA: 5 of 6 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
1 was normal (44%), 3 were heterozygous (36%), 1 was homozygous (19%)
IRF5: 7 of 10 genes had a minor (risk) allele
2 were normal (31%), 5 were homozygous (20%)
IFIH1: 1 of 1 gene had a minor (risk) allele
1 was homozygous (35%)
SOCS1: 2 of 2 genes had a minor (risk) allele
2 were homozygous (8%)
NOS1: 47 of 71 genes had a minor (risk) allele
27 were normal (61%), 12 were heterozygous (32%), 8 were homozygous (7%)
NOS2: 25 of 31 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
16 were normal (48%), 1 was heterozygous (38%), 6 were homozygous (12%)
SOD3: 4 of 15 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
2 were normal (16%), 2 were heterozygous (43%)
NDUFS7: 4 of 9 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
1 was normal (45%), 3 were homozygous (21%)
IL1B:  8 of 10 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
4 were normal (55%), 4 were heterozygous (35%)
IL23R: 30 of 45 genes
15 were normal (64%), 14 were heterozygous (29%), 1 was homozygous (7%)


Very interesting, thanks for sharing all those data !

Do you feel that the C677T defect is the major culprit for you ?

Overall, do you feel that these results have been helping to understand your problem, or maybe just for a confirmation that "something" was not optimal ?

I have not my SNPs mapping done yet.  I will ponder about it.


Do you feel those sites like livewello and Stratagene are giving useful info to get from the raw mapping data of 23andme ? 
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Quantum

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2016, 07:22:51 PM »
I cross-post here a very detailed and informative message from romies, originally posted at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2378.msg19936#msg19936 , titled "Pre-exercise pack, delayed-onset muscle soreness, POIS and NSAID "

Thanks for having posted this detailed information, romies !   It may prove to be beneficial for others, and is a step further in helping to figure out what POIS is and what may cause this complex disorder.

(For those wondering, DOMS = Delayed onset muscle soreness, as in the post title, and AA = arachidonic acid, a naturally occurring fatty acid that leads to the synthesis of many pro-inflammatory immune messengers)



I am posting this observation as suggested by Quantum. And I hope it may shed some light to some of fellow sufferers of POIS

I have one other related syndrome in addition to POIS:
after rigorous workout (weight training for 20-40 mins, High-intensity interval training, or cardio for 30-45 mins).
    * I would get brain fog (cognitive impairment) in about 30mins-1hr
    * the brain fog feels similar to caffeine withdrawal (slow thinking, poor recall, and reduced working memory) (I am not a coffee/tea drinker)
    * the brain fog is most severe the morning after sleeping (T+1day)
    * the brain fog usually dissipates after the 2nd night of sleep (T+36 hrs) (much sooner recovery than POIS) if I don't have DOMS
    * the brain fog can last for 2 days if I got severe DOMS
    * the brain fog is NOT relieved by drinking coffee or tea

This issue has troubled me since I was a teenager, and I don't recall having a clear date when I started to have these issues.

POIS symptoms that do not show up after exercise include:
     * flu-like sore throat
     * depressed mood
   
This issue is related to POIS, because they are similar in these ways:
     the supplements that benefits POIS also benefits exercise-induced malaise.
     supplements need to be taken before the fact (far less effective if only taken after the fact)
     delayed onset (symptoms usually set in after 30mins)
     
Supplements that I have tried and have shown promise (not all are needed, the fewer the better)
     Phosphatidylserine - reduce cortisol response from workout (only the softgel version work for me)
     Quercetin helps stabilize mast cell (7hrs to peak)
     Curcumin stablize mast cell,         
         Curcumin reduces DOMS
     Curcumin + Quercetin for Il-6 and cortisol reduction
     COX2-inhibitor to prevent inflammation/IDO
     CoQ10 to reduce inflammatory response
     Arginine, L-ornithine (moderate) to remove ammonia, increase NO
     Omega-3 (DHA+EPA) : reduce AA and inflammatory response             

I have tried several different combos of the above (and individual ones). For me, Celebrex alone (COX-2 inhibitor) is the most reliable one, with a much longer half-life than Ibuprofen. Curcumin alone has a milder effect.
Curcumin is known to reduces DOMS: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4074833/

My current line of reasoning is
     Vigorous Exercise --> trigger mast cell, release histamine, TNF-a and IL-6, cortisol (if prolonged exercise over 1hr) and PGE production
              Cortisol --> TDO in liver --> low tryptophan state + high quinolinic acid
     similar to the mast cell activation syndromes (related to the IDO/TDO pathway explained by Quantum and nightingale before)

Warning: Some people have *severe* reaction towards NSAID (Celebrex, Ibuprofen etc). Seek medical help immediately if you found any bruise/bleeding/ulcer when you are on NSAID. Fish oil, Curcumin, Bromelain also are reported to interfere with platelet function, so be very careful.

   End quote
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 07:26:02 PM by Quantum »
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trusttheprocess

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2016, 11:15:07 PM »

Very interesting, thanks for sharing all those data !

Do you feel that the C677T defect is the major culprit for you ?

Overall, do you feel that these results have been helping to understand your problem, or maybe just for a confirmation that "something" was not optimal ?

I have not my SNPs mapping done yet.  I will ponder about it.


Do you feel those sites like livewello and Stratagene are giving useful info to get from the raw mapping data of 23andme ?
Yes I think the C677T defect is the biggest factor in POIS for me because it impairs an enzyme that is incredibly important for methylation, if you look up methylation pathway it is usually in the center because many other processes in the pathway rely on it.  Proper methylation is crucial for us because it manages or contributes to detoxification, immune function, maintaining DNA, energy production, mood balancing and controlling inflammation. 

These results really shifted my perspective on POIS with the realization that there are countless genes mutations that could be contributing to POIS, along with many other factors.  For POIS to be so rare I think we probably would have to have multiple overlapping impaired pathways or contributing factors.  This has me thinking that POIS might be like CFS and POTS in that despite the variety of factors leading to it, the body's response to these factors presents itself [for the most part] as one set of symptoms. 

I think 23andme just came out with a $99 test, I would highly recommend ordering it.  Not only did it lead to me improving my methylation and helping my POIS significantly, but I also learned I can't tolerate sulfur, need to take high doses of vitamin D, and countless other interesting details I didn't even think a DNA test could tell me like what percent Neanderthal genes you have.  The data from livewello was just the population statistics and what individual genes made up a gene family, all of their data comes from dbSNP which is a very trustworthy source. 

It's almost impossible to analyze the data without a large number of genomes to compare.  After studies confirmed impaired methylation was present in CFS, the Klimas project at Nova Southeastern University was started and it aims to analyze the genetic data of 10,000 CFS patients in order capture genetic issues that increase the risk for getting CFS.  So for POIS we will probably never have a big enough data set to get reliable results unfortunately, but POIS and CFS share many characteristics it seems, and research for that seems to be moving very quickly so hopefully soon we will be able to test if POIS leads to a temporary CFS state and if it does test out treatment options being developed for CFS.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 02:07:26 AM by trusttheprocess »

Quantum

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2016, 08:15:22 AM »
Hi trusttheprocess,

Thanks for sharing your perspective on genomics/SNP mapping.

The fact that different types of small genetic mutations, not necessarily the same in every sufferers, could lead the a similar set of symptoms, would be a good explanation about the fact that there seems to be many "types" of POIS, like I outlined in my "POIS types Chart" at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2338.msg19448#msg19448 .  This would explain why there is no one substance that helps all of POIS sufferers, and why what helps one may make the other worst.

You learn through 23and ME that you needed more vit D, and other specific info.  That is very interesting.  Did that translate in a significant increase in your overall health level and energy level ?

I think you are right about POIS being too rare to get to a significant genetic data, but like you say , hoepfully , we will be able to learn for what is done for other ailments like CFS, POTS, MACD, auto-immune diseases, and else.  We can benefit from research done for other conditions.  I already said I think the IDO and TDO enzymes research done for depression, cancer and some auto-immune disease can explain the cognitive and emotional clusters of POIS symptoms.

If I decide to have my mapping done, I will surely share the significant results on the forum. 

As a related information, 23andME testing is now $249.



You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

trusttheprocess

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2016, 05:33:19 PM »
You learn through 23and ME that you needed more vit D, and other specific info.  That is very interesting.  Did that translate in a significant increase in your overall health level and energy level ?
Yes it has lead to a significant increase in both.  Before I started taking vitamin D and my methylation supplements POIS was an absolute nightmare, I needed a nap or at least 3 cups of coffee just to get through the day.  My immune system has also improved considerably, I've only gotten sick once in the past three months which is extremely rare for me (and I think that was just my body finally strong enough to fight a virus it had suppressed).  Most treatments for POIS have such a minor effect for me that I can't even tell if my improvement is a placebo or not, but not with methylation supplements.  Thanks to 23andme and this forum I have a much more complete understanding of my body and of POIS, and I feel like I have a pretty good idea of what supplements will work now.

One thing I really want to try is combining Luteolin and Niacin, I think this will have a similar effect to IDO/TDO inhibitors.  The reason I think this is because IDO and TDO inhibitors prevent tryptophan from entering the kynurenine pathway and being degraded into NAD+, and niacin is the precursor to NAD+ so my theory is that supplementing niacin should work the same as these inhibitors (by feedback inhibition).  Niacin could have mixed effects though because it also doubles blood levels of serotonin, which along with mast cell release of serotonin leads to a depletion of serotonin.  Luteolin fixes this by almost completely blocking the niacin induced rise in serotonin, so I think this would be a good combo for POIS.  Unfortunately it also inhibits the niacin flush which seems to benefit POIS, but I abandoned taking niacin because I had trouble flushing and found it very uncomfortable so I'm looking forward to trying it with Luteolin.

Quantum

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2016, 11:39:07 PM »
Hi TTP,

I am glad for you that your genome mapping have lead to actual results in improving your health.


When I have first found about the IDO and TDO upregulation and its possible role in POIS pathophysiology, I have also considered that the positive response obtained by many members with niacin was linked with niacin having a inhibitory effect on IDO and TDO.  I search for any confirmation of this, but to no avail.  All I have found is indirect and vague findings, like at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25933499  ( and it is not surprising that IDO is activated when niacin is deficient in diet, but that does not imply that niacin supplementation will further inhibit IDO when there is already sufficient niacin in diet).  At the least, niacin supplement can make it sure that the least possible amount of tryptophan is used for NAD synthesis, so tryptophan is more available for serotonin synthesis and other useful metabolic functions.  I sure hope that a study will test this and clarify if whether or not niacin is a IDO and/or TDO inhibitor, by biofeedback.

What source of luteolin do you plan to use ?  There are plants known to contain luteolin, but it is rarely found as a dosed supplement in mg  ( except maybe for a supplement called Neuroprotek, that I heard about from Nightingale )

Are you going to try this combo for POIS, or for exercise-induced symptoms, or both ?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 12:42:22 PM by Quantum »
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fsol

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2016, 05:05:07 AM »
Just posting to add my own experience to this thread:

When I was younger, I could easily increase my strength with weights in the gym and so on, and see progress quite quickly. After POIS this has become nearly impossible. I don't lift weights anymore due to an injury, but I do yoga, sometimes swim and bike to and from work over a very steep hill every day.

I notice that the pain I get in my thighs doesn't get better, even though I bike over the same hill many times a week. Like I just don't get stronger. Also, I'm recovering slowly from yoga, even though I get into a good routine. Overall, it just feels like it's hard to progress with any kind of exercise. I often wonder if it's just hard in the beginning or if I will get over this "hump" at some point. But so far I haven't gotten over it, and haven't had the energy to try really hard either.

I do feel that exercise clears some of my symptoms, just like exercise or a good swim will do if I have a hangover after a big night out.

Quantum

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2016, 12:51:13 PM »
Just posting to add my own experience to this thread:

When I was younger, I could easily increase my strength with weights in the gym and so on, and see progress quite quickly. After POIS this has become nearly impossible. I don't lift weights anymore due to an injury, but I do yoga, sometimes swim and bike to and from work over a very steep hill every day.

I notice that the pain I get in my thighs doesn't get better, even though I bike over the same hill many times a week. Like I just don't get stronger. Also, I'm recovering slowly from yoga, even though I get into a good routine. Overall, it just feels like it's hard to progress with any kind of exercise. I often wonder if it's just hard in the beginning or if I will get over this "hump" at some point. But so far I haven't gotten over it, and haven't had the energy to try really hard either.

I do feel that exercise clears some of my symptoms, just like exercise or a good swim will do if I have a hangover after a big night out.

Thanks for this input, fsol.  It really sounds like the low recovery I have myself from exercise and sports, except that for myself, there was no "before POIS" period for comparison, since I have it from puberty  ( and was not in sports at all when I was younger - was ill more often than not with allergies, cold, respiratory infections, etc )

In moderate amount, exercise is good for my POIS, and for overall health, like for yourself.  But if I do a little too much, than It is no longer beneficial, and if I have a long recovery period and is out of shape the day after exercise, it is far better for me to avoid any sexual activity that day, because the fatigue from sport would amplify POIS symptoms.
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Mr Raba

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2016, 09:05:14 PM »
Hi Quantum,

Please accept my apologies for the agressive tone of my previous post.  Having a horrible POIS attack at the time is no excuse for it.   That is so unlike me though. I usually can keep civil even then.  I did notice however  eating eggs while on a POIS  attack changes my personality.  Hmmm. I  wonder why.

And thank you for keeping calm and not  scalating things with your kind response and sincere advise. It is appreciated.

Simultaneous onset of CFS and POIS since Feb 1993. Married since 1989.

Helped by Immunocal (I explained how to take in previous posts).  Some relief on day one and day two.  It affects neurotransmitters.

demografx

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2016, 09:37:47 PM »
And on behalf of Daveman & myself, I'd like to thank Quantum + Mr  Raba for the civil discourse contributions. That's the exact spirit of the forum that we laid out on the Welcome Page.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Mr Raba

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2016, 09:54:35 PM »
EDITED :Now on the topic of not recovering well from excersise,  do you feel a warm feeling of well being right after you excercise and stronger and tighter muscles two days later?  Like your muscles getting harder.

The reason I ask is that I have tried l-arginine for a few days and noticed this nice feeling coming back atfter slowly increasing dose to 1000mg twice a day. Among other things  L arginine increases nitric oxide. Which also helps to relax blood vessels and increases blood flow to muscles. Weight trainers use L argiinine and  fairly high amounts of amino acids in their drinks. See Composition a product that uses various  amino acids below.
http://m.gnc.com/GNC-Pro-Performance-AMP-Amplified-Wheybolic-Extreme-60-Original-Chocolate/product.jsp?productId=50109946

Actuallly amazon lets you see the amino acid table printed in back label. Might want to try that better. So you can see arginine.

I feel the above gnc recommendation of amino acids maybe  a very high amount so please use caution.


I do not take l-arginine on day two of a POIS attack though. It makes me feel like something physical has gone wrong. Very unpleasant body feeling.  some of it on day 3 as well

Interestingly when I took half the recommended dose of the gnc product above I noticed an incredible  feeling of wellbeing and strength   that lasted 3 to 4 hours. After that I felft a bit odd.

I did not try it again because I realized  it was a very powerful synergistic combo of amino acids and decided to play it safe till I can risk dealing with surprises. but because I have to work full time to support a large family with POIS and CFS I have not done it  yet.  If you are going to try any of the above please use caution,  I would not try the large recommended dose at first try. Also check with your doc before tryng amino acids  specially arginine just in case. I heard herpes type virus thrive on it. Yes I maybe overcautious on this. 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 11:01:47 PM by Mr Raba »
Simultaneous onset of CFS and POIS since Feb 1993. Married since 1989.

Helped by Immunocal (I explained how to take in previous posts).  Some relief on day one and day two.  It affects neurotransmitters.

Quantum

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2016, 07:55:28 AM »
Hi Quantum,

Please accept my apologies for the agressive tone of my previous post.  Having a horrible POIS attack at the time is no excuse for it.   That is so unlike me though. I usually can keep civil even then.  I did notice however  eating eggs while on a POIS  attack changes my personality.  Hmmm. I  wonder why.

And thank you for keeping calm and not  scalating things with your kind response and sincere advise. It is appreciated.

Thanks for your kind words, MrRaba, and thanks for your apologies.  I easily understand that you may not be yourself when in POIS attacks - I , myself, suffer of a deep personality change when in POIS.  ( you wonder why this happen.  I think it is because inflammation get to the brain, and this personality change is the result of an acute encephalitis)
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Quantum

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2016, 08:06:00 AM »
EDITED :Now on the topic of not recovering well from excersise,  do you feel a warm feeling of well being right after you excercise and stronger and tighter muscles two days later?  Like your muscles getting harder.

The reason I ask is that I have tried l-arginine for a few days and noticed this nice feeling coming back atfter slowly increasing dose to 1000mg twice a day. Among other things  L arginine increases nitric oxide. Which also helps to relax blood vessels and increases blood flow to muscles. Weight trainers use L argiinine and  fairly high amounts of amino acids in their drinks. See Composition a product that uses various  amino acids below.
http://m.gnc.com/GNC-Pro-Performance-AMP-Amplified-Wheybolic-Extreme-60-Original-Chocolate/product.jsp?productId=50109946

Actuallly amazon lets you see the amino acid table printed in back label. Might want to try that better. So you can see arginine.

I feel the above gnc recommendation of amino acids maybe  a very high amount so please use caution.


I do not take l-arginine on day two of a POIS attack though. It makes me feel like something physical has gone wrong. Very unpleasant body feeling.  some of it on day 3 as well

Interestingly when I took half the recommended dose of the gnc product above I noticed an incredible  feeling of wellbeing and strength   that lasted 3 to 4 hours. After that I felft a bit odd.

I did not try it again because I realized  it was a very powerful synergistic combo of amino acids and decided to play it safe till I can risk dealing with surprises. but because I have to work full time to support a large family with POIS and CFS I have not done it  yet.  If you are going to try any of the above please use caution,  I would not try the large recommended dose at first try. Also check with your doc before tryng amino acids  specially arginine just in case. I heard herpes type virus thrive on it. Yes I maybe overcautious on this.

Thanks for this info about what works for you, MrRaba.

In my case, the backlash form exercise presents itself in a different form.  I do not have muscle pain, it is more a general lack of stamina, not unlike the one I have in POIS, but less severe.  The peak if this fatigue is the day after exercise, and usually lasts one day, so 2 days after exercise, I am ok, and could exercise again if my 2 times a week average is respected ( if more than that, I will need 2 days to recower form this fatigue).

I already tried L-arginine in my numerous tests for POIS, but my stomach do not accept it, even at small doses, even with a meal - it gives me strong stomach aches ( heartburns).  But this may help another members, espacially those who have muscle pain like yourself.   I have not made extensive tests yet with amino acids supplements, if I do so, I will write about my results.

Interesting to note, another member, POISse, controls his post-exercise symptoms by taking a protein shaker 20 mins before exercise ( see upper in this thread)
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Quantum

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2016, 08:06:24 AM »
And on behalf of Daveman & myself, I'd like to thank Quantum + Mr  Raba for the civil discourse contributions. That's the exact spirit of the forum that we laid out on the Welcome Page.

Thanks, Demo! 
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Mr Raba

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2016, 02:51:16 PM »
Thanks for your input, joelawerance, it is very interesting.  That would show that not every POIS sufferers have exercise intolerance.


When you were doing sports regularly, and when not during a POIS attack, do you consider having a normal recovery time after sports, or longer than your friends ?

Were you able to do sports 3 to 4 times a week, or were you limited to 2 times like myself, even when out of POIS ?

Thanks!

Hi Quantum. It is a little tricky to explain, let me try my best. Four years ago for about 6 months or so I regularly played Cricket, about 3 times per week. Some days during weekends I even played for 8 hours continuously. At the start of the 6 month period it would be very difficult for me to play for more than half hour on Days 1 and 2 of POIS. But as I started playing more I could play on Day 2 of POIS for more than an hour and after a few days even for hours. Also my recovery period from POIS reduced from 5 days to 2 days gradually and severity decreased by about 75%. It almost seemed like the more I played the more my POIS reduced but had the usual tiredness of playing. By the end of this period I weighed about 74 kgs and looked leaner and stronger.

After that 6 months period I left sports and got married and had ejaculation for almost every other day with reduced POIS. This lasted for around 2 months when for the first time I was able to recover from POIS in 2 days and had much reduced severity. Then gradually over the next few months I got lazy and stopped going to gym due to office work and put on weight and became 90 kgs. My POIS period and severity also increased to my previous levels and since then has been steadily increasing with my POIS period now lasting almost 10 days and severity has also steadily increased.

So to answer your question initially I took longer to recover after doing sports but the more regularly I started playing the faster I started recovering and had reduction in POIS. I felt like I could do sports almost every day if required unless it was Day 1 of POIS.


Please note that exercise increasus nitric oxide. So does niacin and L-arginine
Simultaneous onset of CFS and POIS since Feb 1993. Married since 1989.

Helped by Immunocal (I explained how to take in previous posts).  Some relief on day one and day two.  It affects neurotransmitters.