Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (P.O.I.S.)

POIS Life Style => Lifestyle Diary and POIS Summaries => Topic started by: Quantum on October 23, 2016, 11:01:23 AM

Title: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on October 23, 2016, 11:01:23 AM
There seems that for some POIS sufferers, there are exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms like fatigue, brain fog, or else, that will occur after sport and exercise, independently of any sex activity.  Such post-exercised symptoms are less severe and are of shorter duration than a POIS attack, but they nevertheless are a hindrance for normal daily activities.


I am one of those who have shared that problem.  Exercise is beneficial for me in general, but I really have to dose it well.  I must not exercise or do sport for more than 1h30 or 2hours max at a time, must have at least a day without exercise between any other exercise or ejaculation.  I can not do more than 2 times of exercise a week, I have tried to go to 3 times a week, and it is simply too much for me.   

The main symptom I have after sport is fatigue, and I take an abnormally long time to recover ( 24h to 36 hours).  It is less than a POIS attack, and all the symptoms do not manifest, but the day after sport, I am out of shape and not ok.  It is normal for anybody to have some fatigue after sport, and even more at over 50 y/o like myself, but my level of fatigue is clearly more than what is "normal". And this exercise-induced fatigue is additive, just like POIS symptoms.  it adds up if I do sport again, like two days in a row, and it also adds up to any ejaculation within 24 hours before or after sport.   

If I have sport, and have sex the day after, within 24 hours, I may have some symptoms, like 30% POIS, even if I take my pre-pack.  I have share in my method/pre-pack thread that this summer, when I was in pretty good shape, I had sport, than one ejaculation ( with my pre-pack before) the same night, and it was ok.  But I had sport again the day after, even if i felt some fatigue, and pouf.... had about 40% POIS after, the worst POIS attack in more than a year ( since I am using my current pre-pack) and I wouldn't want to see what kind of monster POIS I would have had in these circumstances if I had not taken my pre-pack...!

I sure now take a simpler version of my pre-pack before sport, and it helps, but not to the point that I can have 3 times of sport a week.  It is just more comfortable at work the day after.  I mostly take omega-3, curcumin, quercetin, other antioxidants like astaxanthin or rosemary or vitamin C or else, and sometime ibuprofen.  I am still in the process of finding what works best.

Recently, romies have shared he has the same exercise-induced phenomena, having brain fog and fatigue after exercise.  He also shared his pre-pack for sport, and has very good results with it ( see at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2090.msg19834#msg19834 ).

If you have also POIS-like symptoms after exercise, please share your experience in this thread.

If you do not have any symptoms after sport, do share also. 

 
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: demografx on October 23, 2016, 01:17:04 PM
In recent years, with major surgeries, my excercise activity has been low (E.g., walking at moderate pace). But when I was more active, I suffered terribly from excercise-induced POIS-like symptoms unrelated to sex.

I'm very happy to see this topic open up. This is as freakish as POIS is to me. Similarly, alcohol and jet lag can also induce my POIS like symptoms.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: MirkoThiel0 on October 23, 2016, 03:52:29 PM
this is really interesting for me, some years ago (i was around 15 years old) i had no idea about pois and did go to doctor neurologist
and told him "every time i make sports i feel dizzy and have problems with thinking well" after some test`s he could not help me
and gave me a transfer to an Hospital, i was there around 1 week and they did not found anything i got a lot of test`s one of them was even an painfully
Liquorpunktion/Lumbar puncture and
Magnetic resonance imaging.
at that time i already did think about an connection between orgasm and that symptoms aswell, but never took it serious enough to talk about it with an doctor (i was very shy with thing like that) after that the docotor told me it could go away after puberty today im 19 y old...
if you want i can look for the medical records.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: POISse on October 24, 2016, 12:53:05 AM
I recently identify the link between some symptoms and exercise. These symptoms are mostly brain fog, fatigue, depression, feeling detached and insomnia. These symptoms do not appear all the time (1/3), and when they don?t, sport help me a lot. Excersizing after 0 increase probability of symptoms but it can be during abstinence period also. Sometimes, I needed more than 48 hours to recover from exercising and I can?t sleep properly for days but it isn?t a big surprise since the vagus nerve is responsible for regulating the heart beat.

I made some research and found out about CFS / fibromyalgia which are accroding to me really close to pois. Why do I believe that ?
-   A lot of symptoms are similar with POIS
-   They are also convinced that the vagus nerve is involved
-   What cure CFS also cure me : specific diet, no sport, acetylcholinesterase inhibitor, protein intake

Now from my experience with sports-related symptoms, the best way to prevent the apparition of symptoms for me is to take a protein shaker 20 min before doing sport. In fact high dose of protein help me not only with sport but in general. For the ones who are eating eggs every day, I guess it is the same effect, but shakers are more concentrated in protein and easier to take when needed. However I tried different brands and not all kinds seems to work.
Acetylcholinesterase inhibitor (mytelase) also work for me after sport (with brain fog and insomnia) but I prefer protein shaker since it works very good and it?s more natural.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on October 24, 2016, 06:41:03 PM

Now from my experience with sports-related symptoms, the best way to prevent the apparition of symptoms for me is to take a protein shaker 20 min before doing sport. In fact high dose of protein help me not only with sport but in general. For the ones who are eating eggs every day, I guess it is the same effect, but shakers are more concentrated in protein and easier to take when needed. However I tried different brands and not all kinds seems to work.
Acetylcholinesterase inhibitor (mytelase) also work for me after sport (with brain fog and insomnia) but I prefer protein shaker since it works very good and it?s more natural.

Very interesting, POISse.

Did you notice any difference in the protein formulas that work better?   Were they whey protein based ?   Did they have more tryptophan, or more tyrosine, or more BCAA ( proline, leucine, isoleucine) ?
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: POISse on October 26, 2016, 05:32:42 AM
Unfortunately I don?t have the formulas of the previous proteins I use to buy so I cannot make comparison. But what I know for sure is that pure whey protein is not the one which had been working the best for me so far (no matter the brand). I am currently buying syntha-6 from bsn, which contain a mix of different proteins and indeed Quantum, lot of BCAA and other essential and non essential amino-acids (I don't know for sure about tryptophan, or tyrosine).

Also, there is lecithin in it and interrestingly, lecithin is what I take coupled why anticholinesterase inhibitor to get rid of my pois symptoms. However, lecithin alone don't do anything for me, so it must be the protein. In fact even eating chicken can also be helpful but to a lesser extent.

The effects of taking protein are for me : better mood, more energy, more mental capabilities. Plus it enables me to do sport without fearing symptoms.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on October 26, 2016, 06:39:45 AM
Thanks for the information, POISse !
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Mr Raba on October 28, 2016, 07:34:34 PM
You are describing the hallmark symptoms of CFS.   Not  only the symptoms but how they happen. For example cumulative effect, 24 to 36 hours to recover, brain fog, etc.

This is not at all surprising to me. I have both POIS and CFS. Simultaneous onset. Same moment.

I also believe that most people with POIS have exercise induced flare ups to differing degrees.

The good news is that much is now known about CFS. With amazing discoveries in the last year and few months.
What improves CFS also does POIS. My 23 year experience has shown me that.

Read Healthrising.org for great new research and what helps.

My suggestion is to try immunocal as explained in my previous posts.

I am certain that what will cure CFS will also cure POIS.  The cure is IHO less than three years away to be implemented in US.

Already being used in Norway. See Fluga et al research in site above.
Pasted below:
Cort
Cort
Founder of Health Rising and Phoenix Rising
Staff Member
(This blog is based on a post on Phoenix Rising describing Dr. Mella’s Oct. 10th talk in Arendal, Norway and a typically tortured Google translation of part of that talk.)​

Another Hypometabolic Signature Found

Naviaux’s paper has clearly sparked a lot of interest. Certainly, antecedents hovered in the background; metabolism has actually been a niche topic in ME/CFS for years. Lemle proposed that a hydrogen sulfide induced state of hibernation or hypometabolism caused the low energy problems in chronic fatigue syndrome in 2011. The Aussies have been doing metabolomics research for quite some time. Their 2014 review paper argued it could be helpful in ME/CFS.

Metabolomics is not a niche topic anymore. The Japanese, who have also done metabolomics research, recently released a metabolomics ME/CFS study (to be covered soon).

bigstock-Low-battery-Silhouette-of-man-87297569.gif Last month Hanson reported finding evidence of a hypometabolic state in ME/CFS, and now Fluge and Mella have apparently found it as well. The metabolites they've found suggest to them that low energy production is a central feature of this disease.

Problems producing energy appear to be fundamental and extend to the immune cells - something Ron Davis has proposed. Fluge and Mella reportedly found reduced levels of phosphate – the P in ATP – in immune cells in ME/CFS. That suggests the reduced killing ability of NK and T-cells could be caused by poor energy production. That makes sense given that some immune cells need to power up to kill pathogens.

Fluge and Mella also have evidence suggesting that metabolic problems may be loading ME/CFS patients with lactic acid – a by-product of anaerobic energy production. (If aerobic energy production is impaired or insufficient, the less-efficient, dirtier and lactic-acid producing anaerobic energy production process kicks in.)

These Norwegian researchers believe ME/CFS patients have two problems with lactic acid; they're producing too much of it, and are having trouble getting rid of it. Mella noted that he produces lactic acid but he can get rid of it quickly - people with ME/CFS cannot. Lactic acid remains a puzzling subject - some researchers find it increased and others do not. That variability may reflect a subset issue.

Rituximab Update

If my calculations are correct, the trial is a bit over halfway done, and we should expect it to end sometime in the summer of next year. At that point, Fluge and Mella will crack the code, and by late 2017 (optimistically) or the first half of 2018, we should know the results.

We've seen some promising Phase III trials go bust recently. Because the larger Phase III trials include more types of patients, they often have less positive results, and Mella warned that this was possible in Rituximab as well. If the results don't apply to ME/CFS overall, then the goal will be to find out which patients it’s effective in and target them. Mella noted that different mechanisms can produce the same symptoms in autoimmune diseases, and he expects this is true in ME/CFS.

According to the translation, Mella stated that they can be "reasonably sure" that a subset of the patients responded. Whether enough people respond to make the trial statistically significant is another matter. Rituximab could be effective in some patients, but not in enough to result in a significant overall response.

(Dr. Patrick in Canada believes he may have found a biomarker that will help identify which patients respond to Rituximab. Dr. Peterson is reportedly testing that biomarker in his patients. )

Mella also cautioned that even if the Norwegian trial is successful, each country will have to put on its own trial. (As it is now, Rituximab would be available off-label to doctors willing to prescribe it, but the drug is very expensive.) The U.S. – the most difficult place to get drug approval – will need its own trial.

According to clinicaltrials.gov. the NIH, one of the biggest clinical trial producers in the world, is currently recruiting for no less than 49 Rituximab trials, mostly in cancer but also in lupus and other autoimmune disorders.

How the NIH, after the IOM and P2P reports, and its statements that ME/CFS constitutes a serious, unmet need, could find a way not to fund a Rituximab trial in the face of a successful Norwegian trial is unclear, but if any group can find a way, surely the NIH can. If the NIH waits for the results of Fluge/Mella’s trial before proceeding, we might be looking at a U.S. Rituximab trial beginning in 2019 with the results in 2020 or 2021.....

It’s remarkable to continue to see the NIH with its 30 plus billion budget continue to sit on its hands while a small country like Norway produces a large Rituximab trial.

Another Drug Possibility…..Cyclophosphamide

Chemotherapy may end up being very good to chronic fatigue syndrome. Fluge and Mella have been giving twenty-five people who didn’t respond to Rituximab or who relapsed after getting it, a shot at another chemotherapeutic drug called cyclophosphamide. Cyclophosphamide is used to treat cancer, autoimmune diseases, and amyloidosis.

A quite toxic drug, Wikipedia reports that it's side effects usually limit it to the beginning phases of treatment in autoimmune diseases. It’s typically used only when first-line treatments such as Rituximab don't work. Like Rituximab it’s an immune suppressant.

Cyclophosphamide_iv.jpg

Not all immune suppressants are the same; etanercept (Enbrel) didn’t work for Mella and Fluge. Cyclophosphamide findings have, interestingly, excited some hospitals…

Fluge and Mella are using cyclophosphamide in the lower doses associated with autoimmune disease treatment. They reported that while some people get worse at first, it does appear to work in some ME/CFS patients. Like in autoimmune diseases, the positive effects show up months after taking the drug. Approval for a second trial with severely ill ME/CFS patients has been received.

“Toxic Blood?” (or Another Good Reason Not to Donate Blood)

The idea that something in ME/CFS patient's blood may be turning off the mitochondria or natural killer cells or what have you is not a new one. Although no new studies have come out, reports indicate that the natural killer cell problems in ME/CFS apparently disappear when NK cells from ME/CFS patients are put into a healthy person's blood. Conversely, healthy NK cells poop out when put into ME/CFS patient's blood. Fluge and Mella are finding that healthy muscle cells act strangely when cultured with ME/CFS patient's blood.

Fluge and Mella are also finding that the blood vessels of ME/CFS patients are producing too little nitric oxide. Nitric oxide is a gas produced in the walls of the blood vessels which allows them to enlarge and increase blood flow. If you produce too little nitric oxide, your blood vessels will be so constricted that getting enough blood to the muscles during exercise or other blood requiring activities will be impossible.

Nitroglycerin tests indicate that ME/CFS patient's ability to produce nitric oxide is still present, suggesting presumably that either the signal to produce NO is not being sent or is being ignored, or that the cells that produce NO are being shut down in some way.

(Fluge and Mella filed a patent in 2014 to use a nitric oxide donor in conjunction with Rituximab in ME/CFS. Their understanding of the role that blood flows play may date back to this patient. After checking into a hospital for chest pains, she found that a nitric oxide donor (Imdur) improved her symptoms in much the same way as Rituximab had - except that the results were immediate. They got moderate results in six patients and suggested that using supplements with relatively high doses of L-Arginine 5 g twice daily combined with L-Citrulline 200 mg twice daily might suffice as well.)
See Fluge/Mella Take out Patent on Nitric Oxide Treatment for ME/CFS
Finding some factor in the blood that turns things off could be very helpful. It could a) directly point to a cause, and b) to clear treatment options that block the factor or stop it from being produced.

Fluge and Mella's Journey

Fluge and Mella’s range has become so large, that it’s totally inappropriate at this point to think of them as Rituximab researchers; they're after the source of ME/CFS itself. They're looking at the immune system, blood flows, exercise metabolism, and genetics and have developed a model which incorporates all of it.

Fluge_Mella..jpg They've experimented with at least three different drugs. They'll be presenting the data from the Rituximab trial in an open source format so that it's available to other researchers. A 150-person Biobank that is storing blood taken before and after ME/CFS patients receive Rituximab could reap diviidends. We’re lucky to be the focus of two such creative and persistent researchers.

Other researchers – most of whom I would guess were not interested in ME/CFS prior to their work - have clearly been excited by it. Their international partners draw from the Charite University Hospital in Berlin, UCL London, Arizona State University and Institute of Immunology Rikshospitalet and Biomedisn UiB.

Fluge and Mella are going to make their first trip, so far as I can tell, to the U.S. for the IACFS/ME conference where Dr. Fluge's plenary address will focus on how the Rituximab trials have helped him and Mella understand the cause of ME/CFS. At the Patient Day we'll get a trifecta; Fluge, Mella and Dr. Peterson on "Rituximab and Emerging Treatments". It's a rich time for them and for us.
Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2016




 Link below: scroll all way up after cliking.

http://www.healthrising.org/forums/threads/mella-finds-hypometabolic-state-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-plus-rituximab-and-new-drug-for-me-cfs.5004/#post-25386

Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on October 28, 2016, 10:11:51 PM
Mr Raba,

I do not share your enthusiasm about chemotherapy for POIS treatment.  Rituxan and Cytoxan are very dangerous medications, maybe warranted in life threatening conditions, but not for POIS, in my opinion.

And, even if you consider these clinical trials as a sign of hope, not many will have the $200 000 a year for these treatments anyway, even if they would accept the high risks. ( insurance companies will not pay for the treatment of a condition like POIS, that is not in medicine textbooks and has no objective way yet neither to be diagnosed).

Let's hope that research will come up with safer and cheaper treatments for CFS.  In this case, it will  possible to contemplate trying it for the treatment of POIS.


For now, I would like to hear from other members about their reaction to exercise.  If you do not have any symptoms after sports or exercise, I would like to hear from you too.  If you have symptoms, please do share.   I am not sure that every POIS sufferer have symptoms after exercise.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Mr Raba on October 29, 2016, 02:17:07 PM
If you were to follow the rituximab research papers more closely, you would find that the treatment fot CFS is NOT like that one for cancer. Researching just the drug on the net without knowing HOW it is being used in CFS will give a incorrect alarming picture.

The dosing is very different and the risks as well. Only one administration is sufficient for most. As opposed to higher dose weekly dosages.

The study involved a large number of people. No one was hurt in any way. It is an off label use.

The point is that resetting the immune system with an agent has cured people.

Also the trials were done by top experts in the field that did not put subjects to great risks. Again they used far different  dosaging than that used for cancer.

If I were to chose between the professional judgment of the world renowned Fluge and Mella and  whatever comes from quick google search. I go with informed expert knowledge.

Yes. I would probably wait until a cheaper drug is used to do the job. And I would not do it wity just any doctor.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on October 30, 2016, 08:37:47 PM
If you were to follow the rituximab research papers more closely, you would find that the treatment fot CFS is NOT like that one for cancer. Researching just the drug on the net without knowing HOW it is being used in CFS will give a incorrect alarming picture.

The dosing is very different and the risks as well. Only one administration is sufficient for most. As opposed to higher dose weekly dosages.

The study involved a large number of people. No one was hurt in any way. It is an off label use.

The point is that resetting the immune system with an agent has cured people.

Also the trials were done by top experts in the field that did not put subjects to great risks. Again they used far different  dosaging than that used for cancer.

If I were to chose between the professional judgment of the world renowned Fluge and Mella and  whatever comes from quick google search. I go with informed expert knowledge.

Yes. I would probably wait until a cheaper drug is used to do the job. And I would not do it wity just any doctor.

Mr Raba,

First, to be honest, I do not like the tone of your introduction, and of your message as a whole. I suggest you should maybe lower or postpone your expectations about rituximab, and stay kind and supportive in what you write here on this forum.

You may also read the following article written by an evidence-based doctor:  https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/rituximab-for-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-jumping-the-g/ , and see why it is too early to conclude anything on rituximab for CFS treatment.

Also, the dose used in CFS, are, in fact, higher, at 500mg/m2, than in most cancer indications ( at 375mg/m2, usually).  It is only that the infusion are less frequent in CFS protocols, so cumulative, annual dose, yes, may be lower, depending on the protocols, but acute doses are high, so risks for severe reactions is totally there. There is no mention neither of single-dose protocols for CFS.  The first 3 cases of 2009, the 2011 study of 29 patients, and the study that was supposed to begin in 2015 ( RituxME, 152 patients), are all using a few loading infusions, and infusions each 3 months or so thereafter ( for RituxMe,  first two infusions two weeks apart (500 mg/m2, max 1000 mg, or placebo) followed by maintenance infusions 500 mg fixed dose (or placebo), at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months - see http://simmaronresearch.com/2015/01/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-rituximab-fluge-mella/ )


So, no, my goal is not to give an incorrect, alarming picture, but you have to be clear about rituximab, it does not reset anything, it destroy B-cells, which are part of the immune system.  Anyway, I am not here to give any professional advice to anyone, and I decline any professional responsibilities for anything I write on this forum  (see my signature at the end of my posts),   so if you "were to chose between the professional judgment of the world renowned Fluge and Mella and  whatever comes from quick google search. I go with informed expert knowledge", that is ok with me, but please, accept that my opinion may differ from yours. 

I think you should wait, at least, for the results of the ongoing 2015-2017 RituxME study.  It may conclude that rituximab may have higher benefits than potential risks for a particular sub-group of CFS patients, but maybe not all CFS patients, and that is what the preliminary results tend to show.   The goal will then be to be able to screen and identify which patients would benefit from it.


I am done for now about CFS, and about rituximab in CFS treatment.  POIS is already a very complex issue in itself.  I will wait for any consistent results before investing anymore interest in this. And even then, this will in no way warrant any usefullness in POIS until more is known about POIS pathophysiology.



Again, I would like this thread to be back to the topic it was supposed to, that is, do all or many POIS sufferers have, or not, mild POIS-like symptoms, after exercise.

I hope to hear from other members on this !


Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: demografx on October 30, 2016, 11:13:02 PM
Thanks, Quantum, I also think it's really preferable to stick to the exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms on this thread -- it's a great topic!
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: joelawerence on October 31, 2016, 06:32:29 AM
For me aerobic exercise helps reduce POIS symptoms severity and duration. The difficulty though is getting my tired body to do exercise. My POIS was at it's lowest when I used to do sports regularly. I have been diagnosed with very low testosterone and I believe that exercising raises it and hence reduces my POIS symptoms and duration. I am surprised though that demografx has mentioned exercise increased his POIS.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on October 31, 2016, 08:06:29 AM
Thanks for your input, joelawerance, it is very interesting.  That would show that not every POIS sufferers have exercise intolerance.


When you were doing sports regularly, and when not during a POIS attack, do you consider having a normal recovery time after sports, or longer than your friends ?

Were you able to do sports 3 to 4 times a week, or were you limited to 2 times like myself, even when out of POIS ?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: demografx on October 31, 2016, 11:20:08 AM
I am surprised though that demografx has mentioned exercise increased his POIS.

Thanks, joelawerence. Actually, the symptoms-after-exercise were a little different from POIS symptoms. And they stood on their own, apart from POIS/sex. And the symptoms didn't last for DAYS, like POIS.

My exercise-induced symptoms, terrible as they were, only lasted about 5-6 hours, not for days as they did with POIS.


Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: trusttheprocess on November 01, 2016, 08:25:34 PM
Hello this is my first post on POIS center, but I have been reading posts on here for around 2 years, learning as much as I can.  I think I may finally have figured out a treatment for POIS for me, although I'm waiting for the 4th interim report to order new supplements just to see if I'm missing anything.

Exercise has always been one of my best tools for fighting POIS, I was very surprised to see you link it to POIS symptoms, Quantum.  Although I think I may have a different POIS type from you, I've been reading up on mast cells and it seems exercise can trigger mast cell degranulation.  Exercise triggers the release of the neuropeptides substance P and neuropeptide Y, both of which activate mast cells and are typically released with adrenaline (http://www.nature.com/icb/journal/v78/n5/full/icb200077a.html).  It's important to note that chemicals are selectively released in this process (although there hasn't been enough research to determine which ones besides histamine).  Since these peptides are released along with adrenaline, which is used by the body to control allergic reactions, whatever chemicals being released after exercise could cause POIS symptoms. 

I don't think that means we should avoid exercise though, I think the reduction in inflammation, increase in blood flow along with many other benefits are definitely worth it, I just think this means mast cell stabilizers might be a good idea before exercise.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on November 01, 2016, 10:28:01 PM
Hi, trustheprocess, and thanks for joining the conversation on the forum !

I think it is interesting to see that,yes, there are POIS sufferers who gets better with exercise, and other, not, and may even have mild symptoms. 

However, what I have after sport is very far from a full blast POIS attack.  It is mostly fatigue, and it last for about 24 hours.   

When I use to have severe POIS attack, it was even impossible for me to do any exercise in the first 24 hours.  But if I would do some sport at the end of the second day, it would help to recover from POIS.  I had less fatigue from sport than I had from a full POIS attack, so that was ok for me. Now that I have a much better control on my POIS symptoms, my fatigue after sport becomes more obvious.

Interesting link.  Definitively, exercise do have an effect on the immune system, and it may be part of why it is one of the best tool for you against POIS.  This also tend to show that not all POIS sufferers have a similar pattern to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and that for some, like you, there is no exercise intolerance involved.   

Do you, anyway, have a marked decrease in energy when in POIS?

I agree with you, the benefits of exercise are clear, and it is good that we do exercise, with moderation in my case, just to keep the energy level ok.   Taking mast cells stabilizers before, and after, is already part of my routine, and helps me a lot.  As like with POIS, the symptoms I have come with a delay, and it is often the day after that I have more fatigue.  So, if I do sport in the evening, I will take a pre-pack, and some again after, and also some supplements the morning after.

Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: joelawerence on November 02, 2016, 10:40:50 AM
Thanks for your input, joelawerance, it is very interesting.  That would show that not every POIS sufferers have exercise intolerance.


When you were doing sports regularly, and when not during a POIS attack, do you consider having a normal recovery time after sports, or longer than your friends ?

Were you able to do sports 3 to 4 times a week, or were you limited to 2 times like myself, even when out of POIS ?

Thanks!

Hi Quantum. It is a little tricky to explain, let me try my best. Four years ago for about 6 months or so I regularly played Cricket, about 3 times per week. Some days during weekends I even played for 8 hours continuously. At the start of the 6 month period it would be very difficult for me to play for more than half hour on Days 1 and 2 of POIS. But as I started playing more I could play on Day 2 of POIS for more than an hour and after a few days even for hours. Also my recovery period from POIS reduced from 5 days to 2 days gradually and severity decreased by about 75%. It almost seemed like the more I played the more my POIS reduced but had the usual tiredness of playing. By the end of this period I weighed about 74 kgs and looked leaner and stronger.

After that 6 months period I left sports and got married and had ejaculation for almost every other day with reduced POIS. This lasted for around 2 months when for the first time I was able to recover from POIS in 2 days and had much reduced severity. Then gradually over the next few months I got lazy and stopped going to gym due to office work and put on weight and became 90 kgs. My POIS period and severity also increased to my previous levels and since then has been steadily increasing with my POIS period now lasting almost 10 days and severity has also steadily increased.

So to answer your question initially I took longer to recover after doing sports but the more regularly I started playing the faster I started recovering and had reduction in POIS. I felt like I could do sports almost every day if required unless it was Day 1 of POIS.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: joelawerence on November 02, 2016, 12:08:33 PM
I am surprised though that demografx has mentioned exercise increased his POIS.

Thanks, joelawerence. Actually, the symptoms-after-exercise were a little different from POIS symptoms. And they stood on their own, apart from POIS/sex. And the symptoms didn't last for DAYS, like POIS.

My exercise-induced symptoms, terrible as they were, only lasted about 5-6 hours, not for days as they did with POIS.

Hi Demo, I too had them initially but I think they are because our body has lost the stamina from POIS. But as I did sports regularly they reduced significantly and also my POIS symptoms reduced.

Did you see any reduction in your POIS symptoms or duration when you did exercise regularly for a few months?

Also, I had best results from high intensity Cardio exercises like Sprinting that I got from sports than from jogging in treadmill.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: demografx on November 02, 2016, 06:49:39 PM
joelawerence, if I had any POIS symptom reduction, the benefits were outweighed by the agony of post-exercise.

Your point of losing stamina from POIS itself is very interesting!
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: demografx on November 02, 2016, 07:03:17 PM
Hi, trustheprocess, and thanks for joining the conversation on the forum !

Ditto!
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: trusttheprocess on November 03, 2016, 08:01:39 AM
Hi, trustheprocess, and thanks for joining the conversation on the forum !

I think it is interesting to see that,yes, there are POIS sufferers who gets better with exercise, and other, not, and may even have mild symptoms. 

However, what I have after sport is very far from a full blast POIS attack.  It is mostly fatigue, and it last for about 24 hours.   

When I use to have severe POIS attack, it was even impossible for me to do any exercise in the first 24 hours.  But if I would do some sport at the end of the second day, it would help to recover from POIS.  I had less fatigue from sport than I had from a full POIS attack, so that was ok for me. Now that I have a much better control on my POIS symptoms, my fatigue after sport becomes more obvious.

Thanks for the welcome Quantum and demografx, and thanks for everything you guys have done with POIS center.  POIS is a very confusing and complex syndrome, but I feel like I finally know how to treat it, thanks to this website and your POIS types chart Quantum.

I've tried most of the treatments on that chart, most of them helped a lot but some symptoms would would still remain.   I would still have a huge drop in energy for at least 3 days (starting when I went to sleep) and would always have trouble sleeping.  The most helpful treatment for POIS was always Benedryl, so I figured I had the anti-histamine type and started reading older posts from kurtosis about methylation.

I was so convinced by his posts that I had problems with methylation that I ordered 23andme, and was not surprised to find numerous defects in methylation genes, but was surprised to find many defects in histamine clearance (DAO, HNMT, MAOA, PEMT) as well as other genes that I believe are involved in POIS for me (VDR, NOS1).  I have more info on these if anyone is interested in genetic components that could be causing or contributing to POIS. In attempts to treat POIS I've started on methylation supplements, and I'm waiting until the next report comes out to order new supplements (I have a list of around 30 that could help, just a matter of narrowing it down).  I've tried Zyrtec everyday for around a month and 50-75 mg of benedryl after O and it reduced my symptoms probably 50% and cut my recovery time in half, although I still have pretty strong anxiety and fatigue.  The antihistamines are helping me block the effects of some of the histamine, but I still think I have a reduced ability to clear histamine and my body tries to compensate by releasing adrenaline constantly, so even though I am extremely tired I'm still wired.

This means I can still exercise during POIS, but I usually like to wait until day two or three because it's extremely hard and tiring day one and sometimes two, and doesn't seem to benefit me as much because I think it just leads to more adrenaline being released.  My experience with exercise has been very similar to joelawerence's.  I've been regularly exercising for the last 5 years, and I just learned I had POIS 3 years ago, so since then I've been working out more intensely as it's been my best treatment for POIS and the only thing that could really help my energy levels.  Also, like joelawerence, I've started to slip in my workouts and I feel like my POIS is getting worse (around one 30 min workout a week over the last few months, due to school and illnesses).

I'm really glad you brought this topic up Quantum, because it's made me read up on mast cells and exercise, and I think that the fact that neuropeptides released along with adrenaline (along with many other neurotransmitters) can activate mast cells is significant.  I think this could lead explain why POIS has been very hard to treat for me.  After orgasm not only is the antigen activating mast cells, releasing histamine (and other mediators), but adrenaline, superoxide, and other neurotransmitters activate mast cells as well, releasing histamine.  With my histamine clearance issues my body would probably release a lot of adrenaline as a response to this histamine released during O, leading to a cycle that would explain why POIS used to last for like 10 days for me and was completely draining.  It would also explain the symptoms of mast cell activation syndrome (for me: brain fog, short term memory dysfunction, difficulty with recalling words, headaches, congestion, coughing, wheezing, easy bruising, pale complexion, light headedness, dizziness, gastrointestinal symptoms).
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: joelawerence on November 03, 2016, 10:39:30 AM
Hi, trustheprocess, and thanks for joining the conversation on the forum !

I think it is interesting to see that,yes, there are POIS sufferers who gets better with exercise, and other, not, and may even have mild symptoms. 

However, what I have after sport is very far from a full blast POIS attack.  It is mostly fatigue, and it last for about 24 hours.   

When I use to have severe POIS attack, it was even impossible for me to do any exercise in the first 24 hours.  But if I would do some sport at the end of the second day, it would help to recover from POIS.  I had less fatigue from sport than I had from a full POIS attack, so that was ok for me. Now that I have a much better control on my POIS symptoms, my fatigue after sport becomes more obvious.

Thanks for the welcome Quantum and demografx, and thanks for everything you guys have done with POIS center.  POIS is a very confusing and complex syndrome, but I feel like I finally know how to treat it, thanks to this website and your POIS types chart Quantum.

I've tried most of the treatments on that chart, most of them helped a lot but some symptoms would would still remain.   I would still have a huge drop in energy for at least 3 days (starting when I went to sleep) and would always have trouble sleeping.  The most helpful treatment for POIS was always Benedryl, so I figured I had the anti-histamine type and started reading older posts from kurtosis about methylation.

I was so convinced by his posts that I had problems with methylation that I ordered 23andme, and was not surprised to find numerous defects in methylation genes, but was surprised to find many defects in histamine clearance (DAO, HNMT, MAOA, PEMT) as well as other genes that I believe are involved in POIS for me (VDR, NOS1).  I have more info on these if anyone is interested in genetic components that could be causing or contributing to POIS. In attempts to treat POIS I've started on methylation supplements, and I'm waiting until the next report comes out to order new supplements (I have a list of around 30 that could help, just a matter of narrowing it down).  I've tried Zyrtec everyday for around a month and 50-75 mg of benedryl after O and it reduced my symptoms probably 50% and cut my recovery time in half, although I still have pretty strong anxiety and fatigue.  The antihistamines are helping me block the effects of some of the histamine, but I still think I have a reduced ability to clear histamine and my body tries to compensate by releasing adrenaline constantly, so even though I am extremely tired I'm still wired.

This means I can still exercise during POIS, but I usually like to wait until day two or three because it's extremely hard and tiring day one and sometimes two, and doesn't seem to benefit me as much because I think it just leads to more adrenaline being released.  My experience with exercise has been very similar to joelawerence's.  I've been regularly exercising for the last 5 years, and I just learned I had POIS 3 years ago, so since then I've been working out more intensely as it's been my best treatment for POIS and the only thing that could really help my energy levels.  Also, like joelawerence, I've started to slip in my workouts and I feel like my POIS is getting worse (around one 30 min workout a week over the last few months, due to school and illnesses).

I'm really glad you brought this topic up Quantum, because it's made me read up on mast cells and exercise, and I think that the fact that neuropeptides released along with adrenaline (along with many other neurotransmitters) can activate mast cells is significant.  I think this could lead explain why POIS has been very hard to treat for me.  After orgasm not only is the antigen activating mast cells, releasing histamine (and other mediators), but adrenaline, superoxide, and other neurotransmitters activate mast cells as well, releasing histamine.  With my histamine clearance issues my body would probably release a lot of adrenaline as a response to this histamine released during O, leading to a cycle that would explain why POIS used to last for like 10 days for me and was completely draining.  It would also explain the symptoms of mast cell activation syndrome (for me: brain fog, short term memory dysfunction, difficulty with recalling words, headaches, congestion, coughing, wheezing, easy bruising, pale complexion, light headedness, dizziness, gastrointestinal symptoms).

Welcome to forum, trusttheprocess!

It is very interesting that you have done genetic analysis and it is pointing towards some genetic defencies in you, some of which may be common to others with POIS. I don?t how difficult it is, but it would be very helpful if you can post some of you results here so that we can get an idea of the deficiencies and can also know what the testing involves. If it is useful I may also get tested and see if it shows any common deficiency.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: demografx on November 03, 2016, 01:28:32 PM
I am surprised though that demografx has mentioned exercise increased his POIS.

Thanks, joelawerence. Actually, the symptoms-after-exercise were a little different from POIS symptoms. And they stood on their own, apart from POIS/sex. And the symptoms didn't last for DAYS, like POIS.

My exercise-induced symptoms, terrible as they were, only lasted about 5-6 hours, not for days as they did with POIS.

20 minutes of cardiovascular exercise in the morning could easily wreck the entire day.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: trusttheprocess on November 03, 2016, 03:46:27 PM
joelawerence, here were the results of my 23andme test relating to histamine clearance (genes: http://mthfr.net/histamine-intolerance-mthfr-and-methylation/2015/06/11/) and immune function (I picked a few genes that could relate to POIS). Gene reports from dna report website livewello, which gathers data from dbSNP, the genetics database of the ncbi.gov website.  I don't really know the best way to interpret this data so I just included livewello's population statistics for each gene after its genotype, the lower the percent the more rare mutations are in that gene.

Histamine Clearance
- MTHFR:  17 of 34 genes had a minor (risk) allele
15 were normal (57%), 2 were heterozygous (33%, one of the SNPs was notable, C677T, results in a 35% reduction in MTHFR activity)
- DAO: 6 of 17 genes had a minor (risk) allele
They were all heterozygous (30%)
- HNMT:  24 of 40 genes had a minor (risk) allele
5 genes were normal (53%), 16 of them were heterozygous (35%), 3 were homozygous (12%)
MAOA: 17 of 51 genes had a minor (risk) allele
5 normal (50%), 12 hemizygous (10%)
- PEMT: 35 of 58 genes had a minor (risk) allele
20 were normal (30%), 15 were homozygous (24%)

Immune function
HLA: 5 of 6 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
1 was normal (44%), 3 were heterozygous (36%), 1 was homozygous (19%)
IRF5: 7 of 10 genes had a minor (risk) allele
2 were normal (31%), 5 were homozygous (20%)
IFIH1: 1 of 1 gene had a minor (risk) allele
1 was homozygous (35%)
SOCS1: 2 of 2 genes had a minor (risk) allele
2 were homozygous (8%)
NOS1: 47 of 71 genes had a minor (risk) allele
27 were normal (61%), 12 were heterozygous (32%), 8 were homozygous (7%)
NOS2: 25 of 31 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
16 were normal (48%), 1 was heterozygous (38%), 6 were homozygous (12%)
SOD3: 4 of 15 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
2 were normal (16%), 2 were heterozygous (43%)
NDUFS7: 4 of 9 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
1 was normal (45%), 3 were homozygous (21%)
IL1B:  8 of 10 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
4 were normal (55%), 4 were heterozygous (35%)
IL23R: 30 of 45 genes
15 were normal (64%), 14 were heterozygous (29%), 1 was homozygous (7%)
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on November 04, 2016, 01:39:15 PM
joelawerence, here were the results of my 23andme test relating to histamine clearance (genes: http://mthfr.net/histamine-intolerance-mthfr-and-methylation/2015/06/11/) and immune function (I picked a few genes that could relate to POIS). Gene reports from dna report website livewello, which gathers data from dbSNP, the genetics database of the ncbi.gov website.  I don't really know the best way to interpret this data so I just included livewello's population statistics for each gene after its genotype, the lower the percent the more rare mutations are in that gene.

Histamine Clearance
- MTHFR:  17 of 34 genes had a minor (risk) allele
15 were normal (57%), 2 were heterozygous (33%, one of the SNPs was notable, C677T, results in a 35% reduction in MTHFR activity)
- DAO: 6 of 17 genes had a minor (risk) allele
They were all heterozygous (30%)
- HNMT:  24 of 40 genes had a minor (risk) allele
5 genes were normal (53%), 16 of them were heterozygous (35%), 3 were homozygous (12%)
MAOA: 17 of 51 genes had a minor (risk) allele
5 normal (50%), 12 hemizygous (10%)
- PEMT: 35 of 58 genes had a minor (risk) allele
20 were normal (30%), 15 were homozygous (24%)

Immune function
HLA: 5 of 6 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
1 was normal (44%), 3 were heterozygous (36%), 1 was homozygous (19%)
IRF5: 7 of 10 genes had a minor (risk) allele
2 were normal (31%), 5 were homozygous (20%)
IFIH1: 1 of 1 gene had a minor (risk) allele
1 was homozygous (35%)
SOCS1: 2 of 2 genes had a minor (risk) allele
2 were homozygous (8%)
NOS1: 47 of 71 genes had a minor (risk) allele
27 were normal (61%), 12 were heterozygous (32%), 8 were homozygous (7%)
NOS2: 25 of 31 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
16 were normal (48%), 1 was heterozygous (38%), 6 were homozygous (12%)
SOD3: 4 of 15 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
2 were normal (16%), 2 were heterozygous (43%)
NDUFS7: 4 of 9 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
1 was normal (45%), 3 were homozygous (21%)
IL1B:  8 of 10 genes had a minor (risk/variant) allele
4 were normal (55%), 4 were heterozygous (35%)
IL23R: 30 of 45 genes
15 were normal (64%), 14 were heterozygous (29%), 1 was homozygous (7%)


Very interesting, thanks for sharing all those data !

Do you feel that the C677T defect is the major culprit for you ?

Overall, do you feel that these results have been helping to understand your problem, or maybe just for a confirmation that "something" was not optimal ?

I have not my SNPs mapping done yet.  I will ponder about it.


Do you feel those sites like livewello and Stratagene are giving useful info to get from the raw mapping data of 23andme ? 
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on November 06, 2016, 07:22:51 PM
I cross-post here a very detailed and informative message from romies, originally posted at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2378.msg19936#msg19936 , titled "Pre-exercise pack, delayed-onset muscle soreness, POIS and NSAID "

Thanks for having posted this detailed information, romies !   It may prove to be beneficial for others, and is a step further in helping to figure out what POIS is and what may cause this complex disorder.

(For those wondering, DOMS = Delayed onset muscle soreness, as in the post title, and AA = arachidonic acid, a naturally occurring fatty acid that leads to the synthesis of many pro-inflammatory immune messengers)



I am posting this observation as suggested by Quantum. And I hope it may shed some light to some of fellow sufferers of POIS

I have one other related syndrome in addition to POIS:
after rigorous workout (weight training for 20-40 mins, High-intensity interval training, or cardio for 30-45 mins).
    * I would get brain fog (cognitive impairment) in about 30mins-1hr
    * the brain fog feels similar to caffeine withdrawal (slow thinking, poor recall, and reduced working memory) (I am not a coffee/tea drinker)
    * the brain fog is most severe the morning after sleeping (T+1day)
    * the brain fog usually dissipates after the 2nd night of sleep (T+36 hrs) (much sooner recovery than POIS) if I don't have DOMS
    * the brain fog can last for 2 days if I got severe DOMS
    * the brain fog is NOT relieved by drinking coffee or tea

This issue has troubled me since I was a teenager, and I don't recall having a clear date when I started to have these issues.

POIS symptoms that do not show up after exercise include:
     * flu-like sore throat
     * depressed mood
   
This issue is related to POIS, because they are similar in these ways:
     the supplements that benefits POIS also benefits exercise-induced malaise.
     supplements need to be taken before the fact (far less effective if only taken after the fact)
     delayed onset (symptoms usually set in after 30mins)
     
Supplements that I have tried and have shown promise (not all are needed, the fewer the better)
     Phosphatidylserine - reduce cortisol response from workout (only the softgel version work for me)
     Quercetin helps stabilize mast cell (7hrs to peak)
     Curcumin stablize mast cell,         
         Curcumin reduces DOMS
     Curcumin + Quercetin for Il-6 and cortisol reduction
     COX2-inhibitor to prevent inflammation/IDO
     CoQ10 to reduce inflammatory response
     Arginine, L-ornithine (moderate) to remove ammonia, increase NO
     Omega-3 (DHA+EPA) : reduce AA and inflammatory response             

I have tried several different combos of the above (and individual ones). For me, Celebrex alone (COX-2 inhibitor) is the most reliable one, with a much longer half-life than Ibuprofen. Curcumin alone has a milder effect.
Curcumin is known to reduces DOMS: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4074833/

My current line of reasoning is
     Vigorous Exercise --> trigger mast cell, release histamine, TNF-a and IL-6, cortisol (if prolonged exercise over 1hr) and PGE production
              Cortisol --> TDO in liver --> low tryptophan state + high quinolinic acid
     similar to the mast cell activation syndromes (related to the IDO/TDO pathway explained by Quantum and nightingale before)

Warning: Some people have *severe* reaction towards NSAID (Celebrex, Ibuprofen etc). Seek medical help immediately if you found any bruise/bleeding/ulcer when you are on NSAID. Fish oil, Curcumin, Bromelain also are reported to interfere with platelet function, so be very careful.

   End quote
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: trusttheprocess on November 06, 2016, 11:15:07 PM

Very interesting, thanks for sharing all those data !

Do you feel that the C677T defect is the major culprit for you ?

Overall, do you feel that these results have been helping to understand your problem, or maybe just for a confirmation that "something" was not optimal ?

I have not my SNPs mapping done yet.  I will ponder about it.


Do you feel those sites like livewello and Stratagene are giving useful info to get from the raw mapping data of 23andme ?
Yes I think the C677T defect is the biggest factor in POIS for me because it impairs an enzyme that is incredibly important for methylation, if you look up methylation pathway it is usually in the center because many other processes in the pathway rely on it.  Proper methylation is crucial for us because it manages or contributes to detoxification, immune function, maintaining DNA, energy production, mood balancing and controlling inflammation. 

These results really shifted my perspective on POIS with the realization that there are countless genes mutations that could be contributing to POIS, along with many other factors.  For POIS to be so rare I think we probably would have to have multiple overlapping impaired pathways or contributing factors.  This has me thinking that POIS might be like CFS and POTS in that despite the variety of factors leading to it, the body's response to these factors presents itself [for the most part] as one set of symptoms. 

I think 23andme just came out with a $99 test, I would highly recommend ordering it.  Not only did it lead to me improving my methylation and helping my POIS significantly, but I also learned I can't tolerate sulfur, need to take high doses of vitamin D, and countless other interesting details I didn't even think a DNA test could tell me like what percent Neanderthal genes you have.  The data from livewello was just the population statistics and what individual genes made up a gene family, all of their data comes from dbSNP which is a very trustworthy source. 

It's almost impossible to analyze the data without a large number of genomes to compare.  After studies confirmed impaired methylation was present in CFS, the Klimas project at Nova Southeastern University was started and it aims to analyze the genetic data of 10,000 CFS patients in order capture genetic issues that increase the risk for getting CFS.  So for POIS we will probably never have a big enough data set to get reliable results unfortunately, but POIS and CFS share many characteristics it seems, and research for that seems to be moving very quickly so hopefully soon we will be able to test if POIS leads to a temporary CFS state and if it does test out treatment options being developed for CFS.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on November 07, 2016, 08:15:22 AM
Hi trusttheprocess,

Thanks for sharing your perspective on genomics/SNP mapping.

The fact that different types of small genetic mutations, not necessarily the same in every sufferers, could lead the a similar set of symptoms, would be a good explanation about the fact that there seems to be many "types" of POIS, like I outlined in my "POIS types Chart" at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2338.msg19448#msg19448 .  This would explain why there is no one substance that helps all of POIS sufferers, and why what helps one may make the other worst.

You learn through 23and ME that you needed more vit D, and other specific info.  That is very interesting.  Did that translate in a significant increase in your overall health level and energy level ?

I think you are right about POIS being too rare to get to a significant genetic data, but like you say , hoepfully , we will be able to learn for what is done for other ailments like CFS, POTS, MACD, auto-immune diseases, and else.  We can benefit from research done for other conditions.  I already said I think the IDO and TDO enzymes research done for depression, cancer and some auto-immune disease can explain the cognitive and emotional clusters of POIS symptoms.

If I decide to have my mapping done, I will surely share the significant results on the forum. 

As a related information, 23andME testing is now $249.



Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: trusttheprocess on November 07, 2016, 05:33:19 PM
You learn through 23and ME that you needed more vit D, and other specific info.  That is very interesting.  Did that translate in a significant increase in your overall health level and energy level ?
Yes it has lead to a significant increase in both.  Before I started taking vitamin D and my methylation supplements POIS was an absolute nightmare, I needed a nap or at least 3 cups of coffee just to get through the day.  My immune system has also improved considerably, I've only gotten sick once in the past three months which is extremely rare for me (and I think that was just my body finally strong enough to fight a virus it had suppressed).  Most treatments for POIS have such a minor effect for me that I can't even tell if my improvement is a placebo or not, but not with methylation supplements.  Thanks to 23andme and this forum I have a much more complete understanding of my body and of POIS, and I feel like I have a pretty good idea of what supplements will work now.

One thing I really want to try is combining Luteolin and Niacin, I think this will have a similar effect to IDO/TDO inhibitors.  The reason I think this is because IDO and TDO inhibitors prevent tryptophan from entering the kynurenine pathway and being degraded into NAD+, and niacin is the precursor to NAD+ so my theory is that supplementing niacin should work the same as these inhibitors (by feedback inhibition).  Niacin could have mixed effects though because it also doubles blood levels of serotonin, which along with mast cell release of serotonin leads to a depletion of serotonin.  Luteolin fixes this by almost completely blocking the niacin induced rise in serotonin, so I think this would be a good combo for POIS.  Unfortunately it also inhibits the niacin flush which seems to benefit POIS, but I abandoned taking niacin because I had trouble flushing and found it very uncomfortable so I'm looking forward to trying it with Luteolin.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on November 07, 2016, 11:39:07 PM
Hi TTP,

I am glad for you that your genome mapping have lead to actual results in improving your health.


When I have first found about the IDO and TDO upregulation and its possible role in POIS pathophysiology, I have also considered that the positive response obtained by many members with niacin was linked with niacin having a inhibitory effect on IDO and TDO.  I search for any confirmation of this, but to no avail.  All I have found is indirect and vague findings, like at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25933499  ( and it is not surprising that IDO is activated when niacin is deficient in diet, but that does not imply that niacin supplementation will further inhibit IDO when there is already sufficient niacin in diet).  At the least, niacin supplement can make it sure that the least possible amount of tryptophan is used for NAD synthesis, so tryptophan is more available for serotonin synthesis and other useful metabolic functions.  I sure hope that a study will test this and clarify if whether or not niacin is a IDO and/or TDO inhibitor, by biofeedback.

What source of luteolin do you plan to use ?  There are plants known to contain luteolin, but it is rarely found as a dosed supplement in mg  ( except maybe for a supplement called Neuroprotek, that I heard about from Nightingale )

Are you going to try this combo for POIS, or for exercise-induced symptoms, or both ?
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: fsol on November 08, 2016, 05:05:07 AM
Just posting to add my own experience to this thread:

When I was younger, I could easily increase my strength with weights in the gym and so on, and see progress quite quickly. After POIS this has become nearly impossible. I don't lift weights anymore due to an injury, but I do yoga, sometimes swim and bike to and from work over a very steep hill every day.

I notice that the pain I get in my thighs doesn't get better, even though I bike over the same hill many times a week. Like I just don't get stronger. Also, I'm recovering slowly from yoga, even though I get into a good routine. Overall, it just feels like it's hard to progress with any kind of exercise. I often wonder if it's just hard in the beginning or if I will get over this "hump" at some point. But so far I haven't gotten over it, and haven't had the energy to try really hard either.

I do feel that exercise clears some of my symptoms, just like exercise or a good swim will do if I have a hangover after a big night out.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on November 08, 2016, 12:51:13 PM
Just posting to add my own experience to this thread:

When I was younger, I could easily increase my strength with weights in the gym and so on, and see progress quite quickly. After POIS this has become nearly impossible. I don't lift weights anymore due to an injury, but I do yoga, sometimes swim and bike to and from work over a very steep hill every day.

I notice that the pain I get in my thighs doesn't get better, even though I bike over the same hill many times a week. Like I just don't get stronger. Also, I'm recovering slowly from yoga, even though I get into a good routine. Overall, it just feels like it's hard to progress with any kind of exercise. I often wonder if it's just hard in the beginning or if I will get over this "hump" at some point. But so far I haven't gotten over it, and haven't had the energy to try really hard either.

I do feel that exercise clears some of my symptoms, just like exercise or a good swim will do if I have a hangover after a big night out.

Thanks for this input, fsol.  It really sounds like the low recovery I have myself from exercise and sports, except that for myself, there was no "before POIS" period for comparison, since I have it from puberty  ( and was not in sports at all when I was younger - was ill more often than not with allergies, cold, respiratory infections, etc )

In moderate amount, exercise is good for my POIS, and for overall health, like for yourself.  But if I do a little too much, than It is no longer beneficial, and if I have a long recovery period and is out of shape the day after exercise, it is far better for me to avoid any sexual activity that day, because the fatigue from sport would amplify POIS symptoms.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Mr Raba on November 13, 2016, 09:05:14 PM
Hi Quantum,

Please accept my apologies for the agressive tone of my previous post.  Having a horrible POIS attack at the time is no excuse for it.   That is so unlike me though. I usually can keep civil even then.  I did notice however  eating eggs while on a POIS  attack changes my personality.  Hmmm. I  wonder why.

And thank you for keeping calm and not  scalating things with your kind response and sincere advise. It is appreciated.

Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: demografx on November 13, 2016, 09:37:47 PM
And on behalf of Daveman & myself, I'd like to thank Quantum + Mr  Raba for the civil discourse contributions. That's the exact spirit of the forum that we laid out on the Welcome Page.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Mr Raba on November 13, 2016, 09:54:35 PM
EDITED :Now on the topic of not recovering well from excersise,  do you feel a warm feeling of well being right after you excercise and stronger and tighter muscles two days later?  Like your muscles getting harder.

The reason I ask is that I have tried l-arginine for a few days and noticed this nice feeling coming back atfter slowly increasing dose to 1000mg twice a day. Among other things  L arginine increases nitric oxide. Which also helps to relax blood vessels and increases blood flow to muscles. Weight trainers use L argiinine and  fairly high amounts of amino acids in their drinks. See Composition a product that uses various  amino acids below.
http://m.gnc.com/GNC-Pro-Performance-AMP-Amplified-Wheybolic-Extreme-60-Original-Chocolate/product.jsp?productId=50109946

Actuallly amazon lets you see the amino acid table printed in back label. Might want to try that better. So you can see arginine.

I feel the above gnc recommendation of amino acids maybe  a very high amount so please use caution.


I do not take l-arginine on day two of a POIS attack though. It makes me feel like something physical has gone wrong. Very unpleasant body feeling.  some of it on day 3 as well

Interestingly when I took half the recommended dose of the gnc product above I noticed an incredible  feeling of wellbeing and strength   that lasted 3 to 4 hours. After that I felft a bit odd.

I did not try it again because I realized  it was a very powerful synergistic combo of amino acids and decided to play it safe till I can risk dealing with surprises. but because I have to work full time to support a large family with POIS and CFS I have not done it  yet.  If you are going to try any of the above please use caution,  I would not try the large recommended dose at first try. Also check with your doc before tryng amino acids  specially arginine just in case. I heard herpes type virus thrive on it. Yes I maybe overcautious on this. 
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on November 14, 2016, 07:55:28 AM
Hi Quantum,

Please accept my apologies for the agressive tone of my previous post.  Having a horrible POIS attack at the time is no excuse for it.   That is so unlike me though. I usually can keep civil even then.  I did notice however  eating eggs while on a POIS  attack changes my personality.  Hmmm. I  wonder why.

And thank you for keeping calm and not  scalating things with your kind response and sincere advise. It is appreciated.

Thanks for your kind words, MrRaba, and thanks for your apologies.  I easily understand that you may not be yourself when in POIS attacks - I , myself, suffer of a deep personality change when in POIS.  ( you wonder why this happen.  I think it is because inflammation get to the brain, and this personality change is the result of an acute encephalitis)
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on November 14, 2016, 08:06:00 AM
EDITED :Now on the topic of not recovering well from excersise,  do you feel a warm feeling of well being right after you excercise and stronger and tighter muscles two days later?  Like your muscles getting harder.

The reason I ask is that I have tried l-arginine for a few days and noticed this nice feeling coming back atfter slowly increasing dose to 1000mg twice a day. Among other things  L arginine increases nitric oxide. Which also helps to relax blood vessels and increases blood flow to muscles. Weight trainers use L argiinine and  fairly high amounts of amino acids in their drinks. See Composition a product that uses various  amino acids below.
http://m.gnc.com/GNC-Pro-Performance-AMP-Amplified-Wheybolic-Extreme-60-Original-Chocolate/product.jsp?productId=50109946

Actuallly amazon lets you see the amino acid table printed in back label. Might want to try that better. So you can see arginine.

I feel the above gnc recommendation of amino acids maybe  a very high amount so please use caution.


I do not take l-arginine on day two of a POIS attack though. It makes me feel like something physical has gone wrong. Very unpleasant body feeling.  some of it on day 3 as well

Interestingly when I took half the recommended dose of the gnc product above I noticed an incredible  feeling of wellbeing and strength   that lasted 3 to 4 hours. After that I felft a bit odd.

I did not try it again because I realized  it was a very powerful synergistic combo of amino acids and decided to play it safe till I can risk dealing with surprises. but because I have to work full time to support a large family with POIS and CFS I have not done it  yet.  If you are going to try any of the above please use caution,  I would not try the large recommended dose at first try. Also check with your doc before tryng amino acids  specially arginine just in case. I heard herpes type virus thrive on it. Yes I maybe overcautious on this.

Thanks for this info about what works for you, MrRaba.

In my case, the backlash form exercise presents itself in a different form.  I do not have muscle pain, it is more a general lack of stamina, not unlike the one I have in POIS, but less severe.  The peak if this fatigue is the day after exercise, and usually lasts one day, so 2 days after exercise, I am ok, and could exercise again if my 2 times a week average is respected ( if more than that, I will need 2 days to recower form this fatigue).

I already tried L-arginine in my numerous tests for POIS, but my stomach do not accept it, even at small doses, even with a meal - it gives me strong stomach aches ( heartburns).  But this may help another members, espacially those who have muscle pain like yourself.   I have not made extensive tests yet with amino acids supplements, if I do so, I will write about my results.

Interesting to note, another member, POISse, controls his post-exercise symptoms by taking a protein shaker 20 mins before exercise ( see upper in this thread)
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Quantum on November 14, 2016, 08:06:24 AM
And on behalf of Daveman & myself, I'd like to thank Quantum + Mr  Raba for the civil discourse contributions. That's the exact spirit of the forum that we laid out on the Welcome Page.

Thanks, Demo! 
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Mr Raba on November 14, 2016, 02:51:16 PM
Thanks for your input, joelawerance, it is very interesting.  That would show that not every POIS sufferers have exercise intolerance.


When you were doing sports regularly, and when not during a POIS attack, do you consider having a normal recovery time after sports, or longer than your friends ?

Were you able to do sports 3 to 4 times a week, or were you limited to 2 times like myself, even when out of POIS ?

Thanks!

Hi Quantum. It is a little tricky to explain, let me try my best. Four years ago for about 6 months or so I regularly played Cricket, about 3 times per week. Some days during weekends I even played for 8 hours continuously. At the start of the 6 month period it would be very difficult for me to play for more than half hour on Days 1 and 2 of POIS. But as I started playing more I could play on Day 2 of POIS for more than an hour and after a few days even for hours. Also my recovery period from POIS reduced from 5 days to 2 days gradually and severity decreased by about 75%. It almost seemed like the more I played the more my POIS reduced but had the usual tiredness of playing. By the end of this period I weighed about 74 kgs and looked leaner and stronger.

After that 6 months period I left sports and got married and had ejaculation for almost every other day with reduced POIS. This lasted for around 2 months when for the first time I was able to recover from POIS in 2 days and had much reduced severity. Then gradually over the next few months I got lazy and stopped going to gym due to office work and put on weight and became 90 kgs. My POIS period and severity also increased to my previous levels and since then has been steadily increasing with my POIS period now lasting almost 10 days and severity has also steadily increased.

So to answer your question initially I took longer to recover after doing sports but the more regularly I started playing the faster I started recovering and had reduction in POIS. I felt like I could do sports almost every day if required unless it was Day 1 of POIS.


Please note that exercise increasus nitric oxide. So does niacin and L-arginine
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: demografx on November 14, 2016, 03:48:31 PM
Many discussions in the past about nitric oxide and POIS.

•Put this in your google search box:
nitric oxide pois site://poiscenter.com

•and to go back further:
nitric oxide POIS site://thenakedscientists.com
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: demografx on November 14, 2016, 05:42:40 PM
I had good success with Levitra/nitric oxide but then it stopped working. Who knows why???
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: romies on July 25, 2017, 12:53:12 PM
Yes I think the C677T defect is the biggest factor in POIS for me because it impairs an enzyme that is incredibly important for methylation, if you look up methylation pathway it is usually in the center because many other processes in the pathway rely on it.  Proper methylation is crucial for us because it manages or contributes to detoxification, immune function, maintaining DNA, energy production, mood balancing and controlling inflammation. 

I think 23andme just came out with a $99 test, I would highly recommend ordering it.  Not only did it lead to me improving my methylation and helping my POIS significantly, but I also learned I can't tolerate sulfur, need to take high doses of vitamin D, and countless other interesting details I didn't even think a DNA test could tell me like what percent Neanderthal genes you have.  The data from livewello was just the population statistics and what individual genes made up a gene family, all of their data comes from dbSNP which is a very trustworthy source. 

It's almost impossible to analyze the data without a large number of genomes to compare.  After studies confirmed impaired methylation was present in CFS, the Klimas project at Nova Southeastern University was started and it aims to analyze the genetic data of 10,000 CFS patients in order capture genetic issues that increase the risk for getting CFS.  So for POIS we will probably never have a big enough data set to get reliable results unfortunately, but POIS and CFS share many characteristics it seems, and research for that seems to be moving very quickly so hopefully soon we will be able to test if POIS leads to a temporary CFS state and if it does test out treatment options being developed for CFS.

It looks like you are +/- on C677T. This condition can be corrected readily with Methylfolate + Methyl B12 supplements. And you can do a couple of blood homocysteine tests to titrate your dosage.

BTW, I believe as of 2017, the $99 23andme is the ancestry-only test, and does not have the SNP results for methylation pathways etc.

Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: romies on July 25, 2017, 01:19:39 PM
I had good success with Levitra/nitric oxide but then it stopped working. Who knows why???

If you are taking Arginine, ornithine or citrulline supplement for nitric oxide, you would also need have sufficient NADH to generate NO.
And then you will need to have sufficiently low super-oxidant to prevent NO turning into ONOO (very bad). http://ajpcell.physiology.org/content/ajpcell/271/5/C1424.full.pdf
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: 15yrsAndCounting on June 09, 2020, 07:36:21 PM
Can anyone tell which doctor to visit for Mast Cell activation?
Also any idea if blood platelet count goes down, if you decrease thyroid dosage?
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: demografx on June 09, 2020, 07:42:16 PM
15yrsAndCounting, welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Clues on June 10, 2020, 03:29:50 AM
I also get POIS symptoms from exercise. Almost as bad as orgasm, depending on the workout. I suspect I have some sort of MCAD, and I'm experimenting with my diet and lifestyle based on that, with the goal of being able to work out again, because it really helps in other ways. Body feels less tense and I feel more upbeat overall during extended periods of working out regularly. But I always get symptoms the same day and the day after.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: demografx on June 10, 2020, 01:46:38 PM
Whenever I ran “aerobically” (20 minutes, elevated heart rate), I would get exercise-induced depression. I married into an athletic family, so no one understood, but articles on the internet helped me greatly.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: demografx on June 10, 2020, 01:53:06 PM
Very interesting to see that this is an “active” ( :) ) thread.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Ricardo Brasil on June 11, 2020, 08:07:20 PM
I also experience mild symptoms of POIS after exercise, difficulty concentrating, brain fog and a little dizzy. I always preferred to do any exercise at night and then take a shower and sleep, because studying or working after practicing physical exercises really doesn't work.
They say it is good to practice sport in the morning kkkk and I believe it is, but for me doing this is the same as missing the day ....
Today I am sedentary, I couldn't reconcile physical exercises with the math faculty, because I couldn't think straight, but I want to practice again soon, I just don't know if it will be possible ...
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Muon on June 15, 2020, 12:43:49 PM
I also notice POIS symptoms after working out in the gym, but not as intense after orgasm.

Can anyone tell which doctor to visit for Mast Cell activation?

Why are you looking for one? These type of doctors are rare and have stacked agenda's.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Aladin on June 16, 2020, 01:30:19 AM
Sport can go both ways for me. In 80-90% of the cases, it will help me feel better. And then there are the exceptional cases where sport gives me -indeed- POIS-like symptoms.
Due to corona, i hadn't exercised for 3 month and started again 2 days ago. Result: terribly stiff muscles, exhaustion, emotional instability, ruminating. Probably, i overdid it and here i am....

I'm actually right now in one of those POIS-episodes and thanks to reading the forum, i realize the link.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: jdog78 on July 03, 2020, 05:56:10 PM
If I walk and do some light weights I'm fine however if I lift heavy weights I feel like have the flu almost. You bring up an interesting topic and didn't realize others also had this. If I play basketball and do some push ups and lighter weight type lifting I feel decent but once I go balls out in the gym I need much more time to recover and as noted feel flu like a run down. People who have autoimmune disorders report the same with going heavy with lifting or exerting themselves e.g. Lupus, RA and MS. I think this is another hint that POIS is an autoimmune disorder in my opinion. I'm glad you brought this up, I can totally relate. I tend to focus on walking and light lifting 5-6x per week vs balls out 3x a week. Of course everyone is different and their body reacts different. Keep fighting men and don't give up.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Muon on July 22, 2020, 06:58:08 PM
Mallory (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=ptq3bd0gu41qvcoq6e09uoddq5&topic=14697.msg177763#msg177763):

"I exercise frequently but get a similar headache only when I go running for some reason.. minus the flu symptoms though."

lovelife28 (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=14697.msg344849#msg344849):

"I also get the same kind of headaches after a high paced workout."

 Effects of endurance exercise on serum concentration of calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP): a potential link between exercise intensity and headache (https://www.degruyter.com/configurable/contentpage/journals$002fcclm$002fahead-of-print$002farticle-10.1515-cclm-2019-1337$002farticle-10.1515-cclm-2019-1337.xml)

Preliminary Evidence of Increased Pain and Elevated Cytokines in Fibromyalgia Patients with Defective Growth Hormone Response to Exercise (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2868257/)
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: berlin1984 on July 29, 2020, 01:54:02 PM
     the supplements that benefits POIS also benefits exercise-induced malaise.

I just wanted to drop the term Post-exertional malaise (PEM) here since it's used in the CFS/ME scene.
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Post-exertional_malaise
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-exertional_malaise
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Muon on July 29, 2020, 02:52:52 PM
I'm really glad you brought this topic up Quantum, because it's made me read up on mast cells and exercise, and I think that the fact that neuropeptides released along with adrenaline (along with many other neurotransmitters) can activate mast cells is significant.

Adrenaline doesn't activate the mast cell but inhibits via beta 2 adrenergic receptor activation. It can be tested by using Pseudoephedrine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoephedrine#Mechanism_of_action

In addition to that, perhaps exercise could do something to the vagal tone (someone should look it up). Doesn't heat induce acetylcholine release? Exercise could do something similar. Anyway I get the impression that the cardiovascular system doesn't respond properly to exercise.

Edit:
Ok here it is, I thought I had read it somewhere, page 499:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3140.msg32139#msg32139

"For example, during exercise there is a progressive decrease in PNS tone and a parallel increase in SNS tone. There are unique situations in which the autonomic response is characterized by either dual activation or dual inhibition. For example, in human adults, sexual arousal is characterized by a dual excitation."

The body might already be in a SNS dominant state, exercise could be seperating them even further apart. Perhaps a chronic dominant SNS state could increase adrenergic receptor density in general making you more sensitive to incremental increase in SNS tone.

Edit again:
PE may support the above statement:
"The present study found the balance between the sympathetic and the parasympathetic system was changed in favor of the sympathetic action in patients with lifelong PE. This imbalance might trigger lifelong PE."

"A converse viewpoint is that overactivation of a1-adrenoreceptors via the SNS might lead to PE"

Autonomic Nervous System Dysfunction in Lifelong Premature Ejaculation: Analysis of Heart Rate Variability (https://sci-hub.se/https://www.goldjournal.net/article/S0090-4295(12)00946-6/fulltext)
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Unvers on July 30, 2020, 03:47:27 PM
Maybe it has already been said, I have not read all the messages, the first thing that comes to mind that they have in common physical exercise and orgasm are endorphins, that POIS is a kind of endorphin withdrawal syndrome? I've always suspected it in my case ..

Obviously I speak only for a part of those who suffer from POIS, of those who have it mostly cognitive.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Unvers on July 31, 2020, 07:16:53 AM
Today I am in POIS and I tried to exercise, tired almost immediately, I let it go in order not to exacerbate fatigue, I am also a little in debt of sleep, maybe a walk is better.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: an-y-more on August 01, 2020, 04:23:22 AM
Regards joint pain and tiredness:
When I had gut microflora dysbiosis - couldn't eat any fiber without visiting restroom for number 2 way too regulary (with severe body pain after) I couldn't even bring heavy bags from grocery without getting joint pain and extreme fatigue (especially in winter) first days in pois. Exercising would leave me exhausted and with joint pain when I tried. Niacin was the best way to manage body pain, black tea and warm shower were helpful as well but that all leaved me more physically weak (lowkey fleeting feeling when walk, overall not that nuch energy) Cold shower during joint/body pain made it worse.
So basically everything that dilates vessels was helpful. Things that do opposite (cold, cold shower) were harmful.

On the other hand when felt constipated and had really irregular stool my body worked pretty okay. Could walk for a long time. but head tension and brain fog were off the charts. Physical exercise: squatting, just hanging on Horizontal bar was giving me intense head tension and didn't improve my physicall well being at least.

So it seems like my gut work affects tension or bloodstream of my whole body and when it becomes too constricted I feel joint pain and tiredness when exercising. Could be cause thick blood.. I also drink lots of water and it may be helpful, I'm not sure.

If there someone who had post-exercise joint pain and fatigue completely altered at some point.. think about your gut changes at that period or anything else that colud affect vessels/tension in a long term? Maybe it's a reason for such sympthoms considering how many poisers experience problems with vessels.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Muon on August 03, 2020, 01:25:46 PM
Exercise, training, and the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis in men (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2451965019300390)

"Abstract

According to the type and duration, physical exercise may influence positively and negatively the secretion of hormones related to the hypothalamic?pituitary?gonadal axis in males. Indeed, although acute exercise induces a rise in testosterone secretion, chronic, high-load/duration physical exercise reduces the activity of the hypothalamic?pituitary?gonadal axis. This different response of sexual hormones in males to physical exercise and training influences sexual and spermatogenetic functions that might be improved, maintained, or impaired.
"

Or upregulation of COX enzymes by adrenergic pathways?
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: berlin1984 on August 19, 2020, 02:42:21 PM
Changes in Gut and Plasma Microbiome following Exercise Challenge in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4684203/
" These results provide evidence for a systemic effect of an altered gut microbiome in ME/CFS patients compared to controls. Upon exercise challenge, there were significant changes in the abundance of major bacterial phyla in the gut in ME/CFS patients not observed in healthy controls. In addition, compared to controls clearance of bacteria from the blood was delayed in ME/CFS patients following exercise. These findings suggest a role for an altered gut microbiome and increased bacterial translocation following exercise in ME/CFS patients that may account for the profound post-exertional malaise experienced by ME/CFS patients."

(Note: Other studies have found problems clearning lactate, ammonia etc. So it's again multi factorial. And I know CFS is not POIS for everoyone, but the parallels are too strong to ignore for me.)

(via https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Post-exertional_malaise#The_gut_microbiome )
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: berlin1984 on August 19, 2020, 02:54:15 PM
Poll Sex, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia: the Sex Poll
https://www.healthrising.org/forums/threads/sex-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-and-fibromyalgia-the-sex-poll.3391/
"
ME/CFS and/or FM has had a great impact on my sex life
Votes: 101
74.8%

ME/CFS and/or FM has had a moderate impact on my sex life
Votes: 27
20.0%

ME/CFS and/or FM has not had an impact on my sex life
Votes: 0
0.0%

Problems with post-exertional malaise after sex make me reluctant to have sex
Votes: 51
37.8%
"


(multiple choice male/female poll)
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Muon on September 05, 2020, 11:37:09 AM
Stumbled on this:

S100B as a Marker for Brain Damage and Blood–Brain Barrier Disruption Following Exercise (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-013-0119-9)

"However, even in the absence of head trauma, it appears that the BBB may be compromised following exercise, with the severity dependent on exercise intensity."
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: ThisType on September 06, 2020, 08:52:42 AM
So I have a slightly different effect from exercise that may add some perspective on the discussion.  If I do normal exercise without high heart rate, it doesn't do much either way for me. If I do intensive exercise (high intensity interval training or high heart rate), it significantly reduces brain fog and slowness for a day or two. If I do it every other day, I'm good for most of the week.
What I've discovered as a function of this is twofold:

1) this appears to jump start my metabolism and keep it going.
2) when doing this exercise, I find that in the afternoon, I sometimes see symptoms that further choline might help. I take choline at night, which may mean the afternoon is when I will be at a low point. My guess is that I process the choline through my system faster as a result of high heart rate exercise

 I also believe there's a spectrum of choline related issues on this site. If I have too much choline I reproduce a different set of the pois symptoms than if I have too little.

 I think the exercise and speed of processing of choline may relate to this observation in that it moves the dial on how much of a particular vitamin or chemical is in the system or how much is processed.

My 2 cents in case it's helpful.
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: Muon on September 09, 2020, 05:40:16 AM
https://www.mastattack.org/2015/05/histamine-depletion-in-exercise/
Title: Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
Post by: berlin1984 on August 21, 2021, 02:37:02 PM
These results really shifted my perspective on POIS with the realization that there are countless genes mutations that could be contributing to POIS, along with many other factors.  For POIS to be so rare I think we probably would have to have multiple overlapping impaired pathways or contributing factors.  This has me thinking that POIS might be like CFS and POTS in that despite the variety of factors leading to it, the body's response to these factors presents itself [for the most part] as one set of symptoms. 

Feel free to also join our genetics discussion in https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3694.0 :-)