Author Topic: The Polyvagal Theory  (Read 46091 times)

Quantum

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The Polyvagal Theory
« on: January 23, 2016, 03:24:43 PM »
This thread is about the Polyvagal Theory.

Considering that part of the current research on POIS is related to the Polyvagal Theory, I thought it would be important to start a thread about it.  There is already a thread about Heart Rate Variability ( HRV), which is used as a measure related to the Polyvagal Theory and the vagus nerve, but I think it will be important, in order to have a better understanding of the results of the study when they will be out, to have at least a basic understanding of the Polyvagal Theory.  Dr Komisaruk and his team uses this theory as a background for at least a part of the study, and knowing the concepts they use and are referring to will be of great help to fully grasp what they have found about POIS.

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demografx

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2016, 03:43:16 PM »
Thanks, Quantum, for starting the thread.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Quantum

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2016, 03:48:30 PM »


Book recommended by Dr Komisaruk/Rutgers

Dr Stephen W. Porges ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Porges#Polyvagal_Theory ) is the one who has proposed the Polyvagal theory, in 1995, and has helped to develop it since.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 06:18:57 PM by Quantum »
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Quantum

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2016, 03:49:44 PM »
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Quantum

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2016, 03:50:42 PM »



Hi Demo and everyone,

Also, a good summary of the Polyvagal Theory can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvagal_Theory


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Quantum

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2016, 03:59:29 PM »
I have found a very interesting interview with Dr Stephen W. Porges on the Polyvagal Theory.  It is in lay terms, clear and easy to understand, and is very effective at explaining the 3 different neurological responses that this theory describes, and most importantly, the order in which they manifest, and what it means in daily life.  Those 3 responses alternate in a particular order, and have specific physiological manifestations.  It is an evolve view of the current two-modes view of the autonomic system ( parasympathetic vs sympathetic), has the Polyvagal theory introduce a third state.

See the interview transcript, with great graphics, at: http://www.sott.net/article/228410-How-your-nervous-system-sabotages-your-ability-to-relate

Here is one of the good summary of the Polyvagal Theory, in one, very well done graphic:





« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 06:19:34 PM by Quantum »
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Quantum

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2016, 04:33:00 PM »
cross-posted from : Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation

For anyone interested, I have found a very interesting interview about the Polyvagal Theory, in lay terms, with the founder of this theory, at http://www.sott.net/article/228410-How-your-nervous-system-sabotages-your-ability-to-relate .

Very interesting, Quantum.

Thanks Demo,

This interview has helped me a great deal in grasping what the Polyvagal theory implies.

I even already ponder a bit about how POIS relates to the Polyvagal Theory.  Knowing that the 3 different reactions are linear, you can go from "smart" vagus to sympathetic response, and then form sympathetic response, which is in the middle, you can go back to "smart' vagus", or to the other side, the "old" vagus, frozen state ( it seems not possible to go directly from smart vagus to old vagus, and the opposite, according to Polyvagal Theory - to go from one to the other, you have to pass through at least a brief phase of the sympathetic response ).  I feel that POIS could be a bad "exit" from the sympathetic state induced at the time of release ( fast heart beat, fast breathing, high state of arousal, ...).  Instead of going back to the "smart" vagus response, it looks like we "fall" in the opposite way, in the "old" vagus state, where HRV is lowered, muscular strengh is lowered, cognitive functions are lowered , and the like.  This state is the defense mechanism linked to freeze and to feign death, as a survival mechanism.  For whatever reason, we are in a "smart" vagus state before E, get through a sympathetic phase just before and during release, and instead of going back to the "smart" vagus state, we are commuted to the other direction, to the "old" vagus state, where many of our biological functions effectively shut down, and we, for sure, feel "frozen" and disconnect, not to say "almost dead".

I was thinking about those sharing that, sometime, when in POIS, they get out of it after a second O... maybe the second time, they have exited the sympathetic response in the right direction.  Of course, the opposite is also possible, and is more frequent:  after a second release, the POIS sufferer fall deeper still in the wrong, "old" vagus response, and it will be longer still to get out of it.

I was also thinking about my bad reaction the day after sport.  If I play badminton or tennis in the evening, enough for my heart to beat a lot, and to sweat, then, the day after, I feel more tired that I should, considering I do this 2 times a week for at least 4 years.  This state is not as lethargic as POIS is, but it is still not "normal".  In the light of the Polyvagal theory, it would mean that sexual arousal is not the only sympathetic state I have difficulty getting out of.   There could be also a problem for me to get out of the high sympathetic state induce by sport, and that I partly induce the "old" vagus response in these circumstances as well.  I think I have heard of other POIS sufferers who also have a hard time to recover from sport.

What do you think?

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demografx

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2016, 09:49:11 PM »
Here is one of the good summary of the Polyvagal Theory, in one, very well done graphic:


Excellent, Quantum! I also found this one...



« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 10:07:51 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2016, 10:58:17 PM »
I was also thinking about my bad reaction the day after sport...
This was a terrible problem for me, but the bad reaction always occurred on the *same day* -- with cardiovascular workout, e.g., running 20 minutes at 'optimal' heart rate. The reaction was agonizing. For many hours. And no one could understand it: "You should feel *better* after excercise!"

Some people have even reacted to my complaints with snickers. But Google "exercise-induced depression" and many credible results are found.

I have always suspected an exercise correlation with my POIS. And I think the POIS-related reactions also held true with my past abnormal hangovers (way too excessive for the small amount of alcohol consumed - and lasting for 3-4 days...like POIS!)

My POIS treatment has alleviated much of this problem. Further evidence to me that there is a similar abnormal mechanism at work with  POIS, exercise, and hangovers, in my own personal experience.



« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 12:01:55 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

joelawerence

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2016, 11:48:09 AM »
A very useful article that could explain the Vagus theory of POIS that is currently being researched at Rutgers.

http://drsircus.com/medicine/vagus-nerve-inflammation-heart-rate-variability/

The article touches upon how if the vagus nerve is not stimulated enough it leads to inflammation and that Acetylcholine helps control the inflammation. This explains Outsider and Floppybanana s treatment success with increasing Acetylcholine, as it helps control the inflammation.

Ejaculation is inflammatory (There are a few articles propsosing this, I have posted one of those articles below) but vagus nerve manages the inflammation by secreting the required Acetylcholine.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24421089_Frequent_ejaculation_associated_free_radical_and_lactic_acid_accumulation_cause_noninfectious_inflammation_and_muscle_dysfunction_A_potential_mechanism_for_symptoms_in_Chronic_ProstatitisChronic_Pelvi

When the vagus nerve is not able to stimulate properly the inflammation is not reduced for a long time which is the POIS period for us. As you may all know systemic inflammation to the joints and bones is what causes pain throughout the body. Then the inflammation to brain and parts of eyes is what causes blurred vision, headaches, cognition issues, etc? An inflamed prostate also causes all types of issues including premature ejaculation.

Vagus nerve is also required for increasing testosterone in the body. The body?s free testosterone level naturally drops following ejaculation and again a normal functioning vagus nerve should get it back to normal levels soon, but happens slowly in our case.

So low testosterone and systemic inflammation of the body are the main reasons why we get the POIS symptoms IMO. This explains why Testosterone replacement therapy has worked for a few and anti-inflammatory stuff like Nicain, anti-histamines, fenugreek, acetylcholine stimulators work for some. IMO there will be 100% permanent cure only if the vagus nerve heals and starts functioning as it would in a non-POIS person.

These are all strictly my theories, please let me know your thoughts and challenge me if you disagree with something so that I can research a bit more.
33 years old, POIS for around 12 years with increasing severity.
Major symptoms - Severe fatigue, back pain, unrefreshed even after 9+ hours sleep, pain behind eyes, very dry face, bald head with inflamed scalp, digestion issues and constipation. Very low testosterone and high glucose in blood tests

Marcusq

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2016, 03:14:04 PM »
Thank you guys, this theory is the most accurate one we have till now, i only get some relief with antihistaminics. Anyone have tried Solgar Choline supplements?

demografx

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2016, 01:26:10 AM »
"Introduction To The Vagus Nerve"
From http://selfhacked.com/2015/07/30/28-ways-to-stimulate-your-vagus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/#Introduction_to_The_Vagus_Nerve

"In people with fatigue, food sensitivities, anxiety, gut problems, brain fog and depersonalization, the vagus nerve is almost always at play.  These people have lower vagal tone, which means a lower ability of the vagus nerve to activate or perform its functions.

The only question is what aspect of the vagus nerve is malfunctioning and how much the vagus nerve is a problem vs. other aspects of your biology.

The vagus nerve is part of the parasympathetic nervous system, referred to as the rest and digest system.  It’s not the only nerve in the parasympathetic system, but it’s by far the most important one because it has the most far reaching effects.

The word vagus means “wanderer,” because it wanders all over the body to various important organs.

The vagus nerve connects to the brain, gut (intestines, stomach), heart, liver, pancreas, gallbladder, kidney, ureter, spleen, lungs, fertility organs (females), neck (including pharynx, larynx, esophagus), ears and tongue."
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2016, 03:08:18 AM »


« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 03:45:51 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2016, 09:43:29 PM »
This is why we needed Rutgers IRB approval! :)

Yes. The above "VNS shock photo" is a joke.


« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 07:38:05 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Quantum

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2016, 10:13:31 PM »
A very useful article that could explain the Vagus theory of POIS that is currently being researched at Rutgers.

http://drsircus.com/medicine/vagus-nerve-inflammation-heart-rate-variability/

The article touches upon how if the vagus nerve is not stimulated enough it leads to inflammation and that Acetylcholine helps control the inflammation. This explains Outsider and Floppybanana s treatment success with increasing Acetylcholine, as it helps control the inflammation.

Ejaculation is inflammatory (There are a few articles propsosing this, I have posted one of those articles below) but vagus nerve manages the inflammation by secreting the required Acetylcholine.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24421089_Frequent_ejaculation_associated_free_radical_and_lactic_acid_accumulation_cause_noninfectious_inflammation_and_muscle_dysfunction_A_potential_mechanism_for_symptoms_in_Chronic_ProstatitisChronic_Pelvi

When the vagus nerve is not able to stimulate properly the inflammation is not reduced for a long time which is the POIS period for us. As you may all know systemic inflammation to the joints and bones is what causes pain throughout the body. Then the inflammation to brain and parts of eyes is what causes blurred vision, headaches, cognition issues, etc? An inflamed prostate also causes all types of issues including premature ejaculation.

Vagus nerve is also required for increasing testosterone in the body. The body?s free testosterone level naturally drops following ejaculation and again a normal functioning vagus nerve should get it back to normal levels soon, but happens slowly in our case.

So low testosterone and systemic inflammation of the body are the main reasons why we get the POIS symptoms IMO. This explains why Testosterone replacement therapy has worked for a few and anti-inflammatory stuff like Nicain, anti-histamines, fenugreek, acetylcholine stimulators work for some. IMO there will be 100% permanent cure only if the vagus nerve heals and starts functioning as it would in a non-POIS person.

These are all strictly my theories, please let me know your thoughts and challenge me if you disagree with something so that I can research a bit more.


Hi Joelawerence,

Very interesting article, thanks for the link.  I also read the article it is based on (  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2796.2010.02321.x/#js-feedback), by Dr Jared M. Huston and Dr K.J. Tracey, pioneers of the research on the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway and the Inflammatory reflex. Very detailed and very instructive article.

I agree with you that when the "smart" vagus stimulation is decreased, than, in the light of what those articles explain, inflammation is produced because the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway is disrupted.   However, the mechanism by which it happens in POIS is not clear yet - it is not clear yet as to why "ejaculation is inflammatory" ( I agree that frequent ejaculations can lead to prostatitis, but only one ejaculation in months can trigger full blown POIS, so I think there has to be something more radical at play in POIS - see below for my ideas on this ). 

About testosterone, I am not sure it is central for all POIS sufferers.  Many have reported normal T levels, and have POIS.  I do agree that testosterone, as well as progesterone, promote immune tolerance ( and that may be a reason why they help some members) , they help calm down the immune system.  TRT may also be beneficial when T levels are below normal range.  But if T levels are normal, then something else seems to be at play.  I believe that inflammatory reflex problems caused by low vagal tone  ( or another cause for the triggering of inflammation reactions in the body after ejaculation) appears more attractive as an overall hypothesis for POIS physiopathology.


In addition to the above articles, I also went back the the groundbreaking 2007 article of Dr Tracey about the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway ( CAP ),  at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1783813/ , a briliiant article as well, that have helped me deepen my understanding of the CAP.

The cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway ( CAP ), which includes the vagal nerve efferent effect on the spleen, is quite new information for me ( nothing of this was known when I was in university - i am too old ;) ) .  These are quite new and exciting notions, very much on the edge of health science.  For example, a big block of the CAP have been discovered only in 2011 -  the existence of specialized T cells in the spleen producing acetylcholine in response to vagus nerve efferent signals, this ACh production then causing the inhibition of pro-inflammatory cytokines productions by other immune cells in the spleen.

The CAP mechanism brings more clarity as to why certain elements of my method of prevention and control of POIS are effective, in particular those elements like meditation, yoga, and hanging with people I enjoy being with. Other part of my method are more straightforward ( for the description of my current method, see http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2090.0 ). I have already accepted that pro-inflammatory cytokines were at work in POIS, based on Dr Waldinger hypothesis, and have included this in my own vision of POIS physiopathology, as you have read in many of my posts here.  I have included in my method natural products that block the production of those cytokines ( antioxydants and TNF alpha blockers  and IL-6 and other pro-inflammatory cytokines blockers like green tea and turmeric, and also Moducare, that I have talked about last year , milk thistle, lycopene, ...), and I have also included products targeting some of the effects I suppose those pro-inflammatory cytokines have, and in particular, immune upregulating of the IDO and TDO enzymes, disrupting the metabolism of tryptophan and causing my severe emotional symptoms ( anxiety, mood swings, ...).  I have included too NMDA blockers, to help protect the brain cells against the excitotoxicity caused by the inflammatory reaction reaching the brain, and reduce the anxiety and other emotional symptoms caused by my POIS.  But now, this new notion that pro-inflammatory cytokines production can be stopped by a control reflex through the vagus nerve, and then the splenic nerve, is a scientific basis for the efficiency of meditation, tai chi, and  yoga in reducing my POIS, as well as is enjoying quality time with people I love.  All these are raising HRV ( heart rate variability), which is a measure of the vagus nerve activity - the "smart" vagus, the most evolved one, as described in the Polyvagal Theory.  Even if Dr Huston and Dr Tracey suggest that we may be able one day to trigger the CAP without affecting the heart, I think it is safe for now to say that if HRV is raised, we have also activated the CAP and have reduced inflammation in our body.

If the CAP disruption hypothesis applies to POIS, this means that everything raising HRV is good for POIS ( I think there is a quite extensive list of things raising HRV in the HRV thread)

It is still not clear to me what causes, in POIS, the inflammation and the release of cytokines in the first place.  Is it a hypersensitivity reaction, type I and Type IV, as proposed by Dr Waldinger, caused by some component in the semen?  Or is it an autonomic dysfunction that shuts off the "smart vagus" ? Now that I know about CAP, it is clear that shutting it down leads to a massive production of pro-inflammatory cytokines in the spleen, because the inhibitory action of the vagus in no longer inhibiting them - but is CAP shut down in POIS, and if it is, how and why ?.  That's an interesting new hypothesis for me.  Is it possible that the firing of one reflex ( the ejaculation reflex) interferes with another reflex loop ( the anti-inflammatory reflex), so its efferent part, the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway, in shut down?  This would free the way for massive pro-inflammatory cytokines production, and explain POIS symptoms.  Allergy-like symptoms, flu-like symptoms, cognitive, dermatological and gastro-intestinal symptoms, as well as emotional symptoms, can all be explained by too much TNF-alpha, IL-6, PAF and the like.   Restoring the proper feedback control of the CAP by vagus nerve stimulation would then be a treatment, as proposed by the Rutgers study. 

When writing about the Polyvagal Theory, at the start of this thread, I was wondering if POIS could be a problem of our autonomic system getting out of the "smart"vagus response into the sympathetic response when ejaculation occurs, and then, instead of returning to "smart" vagus, goes the other way, in the "old" vagus direction.  I would be very interested to know if that would make sense and fit with Polyvagal Theory.  If the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathways is a smart vagus feature, shutting down the smart vagus would shut CAP down, and "Old" vagus does not support CAP, and POIS appears. That sounds like a programming error in the operating system, and a bad command causes the software to crash and regress to an older version...!  Well, too soon to know what really happens.  However, the current Rutgers Study may shed some light on this!



As a way of integrating this new information in my anti-POIS method, I may add a little lecithin whenever I have some residual symptoms of POIS.  Lecithin, and also eggs, are good source of choline, a precursor of acetylcholine ( ACh).  ACh is the agonist of the immune cells receptors in the spleen, at the end of the CAP.  Those receptors are alpha-7 nicotinic ACh receptors, and are very specific for ACh  ( there are many a7 NAChR agonists in the pipeline study of big pharma, but none on the market so far).  Having more acetylcholine in your system does a job similar in the spleen as does vagus nerve stimulation. 



Thanks again for your great input, Joelawerence.  You seems to be very active in your search about POIS, keep up the good work.  The more we write and share about our ideas, the more we have chances to solve the POIS puzzle!

« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 02:26:32 PM by Quantum »
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G-man

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2016, 11:34:31 AM »
Thank you for taking the time to explain that , Quantum
31 years old. POIS since puberty. Cognitive and physical symptoms.

Quantum

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2016, 02:36:20 PM »
Thank you for taking the time to explain that , Quantum

Thanks G-man.  I hope we will all have a good understanding of the Polyvagal Theory, of Heart rate Variability ( HRV), and of that Cholinergic Anti-inflammatory Pathway (CAP), and how they all relate to POIS, when the Rutgers Study results will be out.

I will continue to dig these subjects, which are very interesting.  It is not all clear yet how this all ties with POIS.  I think we still have to ponder, share and search around those themes, and see how they help us with our understanding of POIS and how to manage it and prevent it.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 03:12:50 PM by Quantum »
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Disaster

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2016, 07:58:34 AM »
I have all sorts of of dysautonomia. Poly vagal theory doesn't relate in that its not an explanation of pois at all in any way. I am an expert in the autonomic system and of course that relates to some of our symptoms. But you can't say it's vagal which has to do with the parasympathetic nervous system. Just doesnt make sense on a lot of levels
POIS sufferer for over 3 decades. Has progressively gotten worse over the years and I became completely disabled around 2011. My case of POIS is very severe.

Quantum

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2016, 09:21:04 PM »
I have all sorts of of dysautonomia. Poly vagal theory doesn't relate in that its not an explanation of pois at all in any way. I am an expert in the autonomic system and of course that relates to some of our symptoms. But you can't say it's vagal which has to do with the parasympathetic nervous system. Just doesnt make sense on a lot of levels

Hi Disaster,

One thing the Polyvagal theory helps to understand is the activity of the vagal nerve, which, among other things, manifests itself through a pathway controlling the immune system activity - the Cholinergic anti-inflammatory Pathway  ( CAP ).   So, this is not mainly about dysautonomia, but about massive production of pro-inflammatory cytokines when the vagal tone is too low for the CAP to be up and running.  While the Polyvagal theory is still a theory, the Cholinergic Anti-inflammatory Pathway ( CAP) is established as a reality, through different studies and discoveries. The inappropriate immune activity resulting from the shut down of the CAP could explain most, if not all, of the inflammatory symptoms seen in POIS ( allergy-like, flu-like, dermatological, gastro-intestinal, muscular, as well as cognitive and emotional symptoms, .... ), and in other syndromes as well.  The existence of the CAP shows that a syndrome can both be of neurological and immunological origin, and explains why.  I do not say that the Polyvagal Theory and CAP bring the definitive solution to POIS pathophysiology, both it is interesting, to say the least, and, moreover, the current ongoing study, founded by the members of this forum, is partly based on the Polyvagal theory, and I suppose the Rutgers team is well aware of the existence of the CAP.   That alone is a good reason to study both the Polyvagal theory and the CAP, if only for a better understanding of the results of the study when they will be out.

See the links earlier in this thread for more information about this aspect of the Polyvagal theory and about the Cholinergic anti-inflammatory Pathway ( CAP ), or just go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholinergic_anti-inflammatory_pathway for a starter about CAP.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 09:27:38 PM by Quantum »
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Disaster

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Re: The Polyvagal Theory
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2016, 07:59:40 AM »
Quantum, that is incorrect. First off CAP is a very new finding and not very established. It's a very general finding that links the autonomic system with the immune system. Dysautonomia illness has the most autonomic dysfunction out of all illnesses combined. I know thousand with the disease and they don't all have immune problems of any kind. Some have very severe parasympathetic dysfunction too. Cholinergic means acetycholine or parasympathetic chemical transmitter. In many people with dysautonomia they have co existing autoimmune illnesses. And dysautonomia currently is being studied right now as a stand alone autoimmune illness that affects autonmic receptors.

In any case you can't have vagus problems and only have pois symptoms. It woldn't make sense at all in any way no matter what crack pot scientist tries to explain it. The vagal nerve interacts with the heart, veins, lungs and would cause symptoms that pois people are simply not reporting at all.

Does POIS cause autonomic dysfunction? In my case not directly, yet I have severe autonmic dysfunction. Does POIS cause autoimmune type of problem, I believe so. Can autoimmune inflammation type of probems affect the autonomic nervous system. I believe I am living lroof of that. I think after year of inflammation it eventually got into my autonomic nerves. Do all pois people get dysautonomia, I dont know any! Do all dysautonomia people get pois, out of the thousands I know none else have pois.

Most likeley pois is an autoimmune illness of sorts in that the allergic response we get to O is triggerring autoimmune type of inflammation or attacks. Possibly it is a vasculitis inflamming our veins which reach into our brains and throughout all our organs. Or through another pathway like the lymphatic sysmptom.. The Poly Vagal Theory is a classic case of twist reality to conform whatever a person wants. They mix in some real stuff and it sounds terrific but in reality that is only to an untrained person. I wish it was true but it's not. Sorry
POIS sufferer for over 3 decades. Has progressively gotten worse over the years and I became completely disabled around 2011. My case of POIS is very severe.