POISCENTER

POIS Cause/Treatment Discussions => General Alternative Causes and Treatments of POIS => Topic started by: emi_b on May 21, 2011, 03:04:11 PM

Title: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: emi_b on May 21, 2011, 03:04:11 PM
Note: I will keep this thread open for anyone who might want to continue it.

This post contains many of my opinions and I do not guarantee that all what I post here is correct.
If you have an idea, or you want to contribute to this thread write you are welcomed.
Read it with a grain of salt.
Best wishes.

A.  THEORETICAL REFERENCE

1. Male reproductive system

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Male_anatomy.png)
(Image taken from Wikipedia)

Testes:
Seminal vesicle:
Prostate:


2. Orgasm and ejaculation

Neuroendocrine response to orgasm during sexual arousal in healthy men

A summary and approximative table with data taken from this article (http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/reprint/177/1/57.pdf)x).
HormoneBlood level during:
Sexual arousal or  OrgasmPostorgasmic
masturbation
Epinephrineraising patternhighest (>100% increase)immediate return to basal level
Norepinephrineraising patternhighest levelreturn to basal level in 10 min
Cortisolunalteredslight decreaseslight decrease
Prolactinsmall increasesignificantly increasedremain significantly increased
Oxytocinconstant levelconstant levelan increase for 10 minutes
VasopressinUnalteredUnalteredUnaltered
LHUnalteredUnalteredUnaltered
FSHUnalteredUnalteredUnaltered
TestosteroneUnalteredUnalteredUnaltered

Note: I've highlighted moderate increases with orange, high increases with red and moderate decrease with light blue. Constant and unchanged levels are left uncoloured.

3. Semen
The pie chart was made by Animus
(http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=111.0;attach=108;image) (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=111.0;attach=101;image)
Semen composition:
Inorganic components:
Organic components:

Semen Production Cycle (writen by Animus)
1.  Sperm are manufactured in the testes in the seminiferous tubules, and after their heads and tails are developed, they move to the epididymis to mature further.
2.  They are stored there until they are ready to be expelled from the body. During ejaculation, the sperm are pushed up the vas deferens, a tube which loops around the bladder.
3.  The ends of the vas deferentia (plural of vas deferens) are known as ejaculatory ducts, and here, the sperm mixes with semen from the seminal vesicles.
4.  The ducts lead to the urethra; the prostate adds its secretions to the fluid at this time.
The Cowper's glands, or bulbourethral glands, also add secretions.
5.  The semen with all the sperm and secretions is then ejaculated through the rest of the urethra and out into the woman's body.

B.  P.O.I.S. PATHOGENESIS

In present (2011) there is a single theory presented and studied in a scientific paper: the autoimmune hypotesis described by Dr. Waldinger.
The rest of them are mostly suggested here on the forum.

Autoimmune hypotesis:
This hypotesis was formulated in the first articlei) of Dr. Waldinger and described more in the last two papersiv)v) of Dr. Waldinger.

Neuroendocrine hypothesis:

Semen regeneration theory:

The following graphs were made by Animus:
(http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=111.0;attach=136)
(http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=111.0;attach=133)
(http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=111.0;attach=131)
(http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=111.0;attach=138)




REFERENCES:

1. POIS research:
i)Waldinger M. D., Schweitzer D. H. (2002) Postorgasmic Illness Syndrome: Two Cases (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a713847004?words=waldinger)
ii) Prof. Dr. Waldinger's POIS website (http://www.post-orgasmic-illness-syndrome.com/en/index.html)
iii)Ashby J, Goldmeier D. (2010) CASE REPORT: Postorgasm Illness Syndrome—A Spectrum of Illnesses (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2010.01707.x/abstract)
iv) Waldinger M. D., Meinardi M. M.H.M., Zwinderman A. H., Schweitzer D. H. (2011) Postorgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS) in 45 Dutch Caucasian Males: Clinical Characteristics and Evidence for an Immunogenic Pathogenesis (Part 1) (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2010.02166.x/abstract)
v) Waldinger M. D., Meinardi M. M.H.M., Schweitzer D. H. (2011) Hyposensitization Therapy with Autologous Semen in Two Dutch Caucasian Males: Beneficial Effects in Postorgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS; Part 2) (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2010.02167.x/abstract)
vi)
vii)
2. Sexual arousal, orgasm etc.:
x)Specificity of the neuroendocrine response to orgasm during sexual arousal in men (http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/reprint/177/1/57.pdf) (2003)
3. Semen composition:
4. Immune system:
5. General:
xx)
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Habibou on May 21, 2011, 03:17:11 PM
great research ! We can try to find those standards easily for the hormones section  :)
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: emi_b on May 21, 2011, 03:51:11 PM
great research ! We can try to find those standards easily for the hormones section  :)

Thanks, I have a lot of ideas for this topic and a lot of work.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: emi_b on May 29, 2011, 02:29:12 AM
I have a request for anyone, who believe this topic will be helpfull for us.

Could you please provide to me here all sites that you know (preferably written by specialists), researches regarding male anatomy, orgasm, immunology, autoimmune diseases, endocrinology, neurotransmitters, even neurology or anything you think it might help and would give more light on POIS? If it is possible also try to provide a little description of what you found, and how you think it will help.

I'll show something that I found yesterday on the Internet regarding immune system on The Merck Manual:
Also I found two "free" chapters from Cellular and Molecular Immunology, Updated Edition, 6th Edition (http://www.mea.elsevierhealth.com/mea/product.jsp?sid=EHS_MEA_BS-SPE-40041&isbn=9781416031239&lid=EHS_MEA_BS-DIS-1&iid=0). Enter the link, and in the middle of the page you'll find the chapters as PDF files.

I think we need many existing researches and medical information to create a more complete and exact image of how POIS works.

Thank you.

NOTES:

EDIT: There is also a thread on the forum for researches pertaining to POIS, if there is a problem posting here let me know.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Daveman on May 29, 2011, 10:52:19 AM
Please everybody, if you can help out with this it will be very useful. emi_b is a wizard at order, and is also willing to wade through some of the stuff to find more pertenant information. We're looking into forming a mini-wiki as part of the new page. I'd like to be able have a sort of dynamic database organized information system.

So depending on how this part of the porject goes, we'll see what we're working with and decide on format and platforms from there. One way or another we'll use the information.

Sometimes when money and donation is an issue, the next best thing is lending a hand.

Thanks again all.

Daveman
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on May 29, 2011, 01:59:41 PM
emi_b,
This is really great! Thank you for creating this thread! I especially like the graphics and illustration. This will be very useful and fun.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Habibou on May 30, 2011, 12:38:15 PM
just some semen components :    carnitine, zinc, fructose = color and taste
                                               
                                               proteins (we have to know more about it), sodium, calcium, magnesium, phosphor, potassium.

                                               cholesterol vitamins C and B12, testosteron
         
                                               arginine, glutathione,creatin , L-carnitine, sorbitol , l’inositol and a twin of ocytine
                                                 
                                               cytokines

and many more
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: emi_b on May 30, 2011, 02:07:28 PM
Thanks Habibou,

Do you have a reference for all this data? It is better to have scientific verified data, this would give credibility to this post.
I am sure that your info is good, but that is my way of work for this, and a doctor reading this would be happy to have all those references mentioned there.

One thing that helps me: if you use the data from Wilipedia articles you can take a look at the reference section of them and many times it gives you more info than the article itself. We should use all those references. Scientific articles also have a reference section which would be helpfull in the search for info.

Regarding proteins in semen I've found an article who might give more light into this.
I've started a topic (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=135.0) at the books and references section of the forum for that article.
You can take a look at it. I didn't read the article, only some parts of it. It is almost cripted for nonspecialists like me. ;D

emi_b
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: demografx on May 31, 2011, 07:17:17 PM
emi_b, your work is enormously impressive!

I can understand the graphics even when I'm in-POIS!  :)
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Habibou on June 04, 2011, 03:59:05 PM
Yes, i understand ! The matter is "i got info in some forums...  :-[" so, it was like a summery !

I found out the "seminal liquid components" (to complete perhaps)  :

The exact composition of seminal fluid is detailed below:
Composition of seminal fluid
Quantity: 2 to 6 ml
PH value: 7 to 8 (slightly alkaline buffer)
Secretions of seminal vesicles: 75% of the volume, secretion and alkaline fructose (1.5 to 6.5 mg / ml), phosphorylcholine, ascorbic acid
Prostatic secretions: 20 to 25% by volume, biogenic amines (spermidine, spermine), citric acid, cholesterol, phospholipids, proteases affected the liquefaction of the ejaculate (fibrinolysin, fibrinogenase)
Other components: phosphate buffer and bicarbonate, prostaglandins, hyaluronidase, cellular waste from the cells of Sertoli cells at early stages of spermatogenesis, lymphocytes.


http://www.comlive.net/Liquide-seminal,111018.htm  ( french forum where i found it out)
If we take the immune semen allergy theory... IF we have mild symptoms while getting aroused it means we have an allergy (or some reaction whatever it is called) to one of those components !
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: emi_b on June 04, 2011, 04:21:37 PM
Yes, i understand ! The matter is "i got info in some forums...  :-[" so, it was like a summery !

I found out the "seminal liquid components" (to complete perhaps)  :

The exact composition of seminal fluid is detailed below:
Composition of seminal fluid
Quantity: 2 to 6 ml
PH value: 7 to 8 (slightly alkaline buffer)
Secretions of seminal vesicles: 75% of the volume, secretion and alkaline fructose (1.5 to 6.5 mg / ml), phosphorylcholine, ascorbic acid
Prostatic secretions: 20 to 25% by volume, biogenic amines (spermidine, spermine), citric acid, cholesterol, phospholipids, proteases affected the liquefaction of the ejaculate (fibrinolysin, fibrinogenase)
Other components: phosphate buffer and bicarbonate, prostaglandins, hyaluronidase, cellular waste from the cells of Sertoli cells at early stages of spermatogenesis, lymphocytes.

THANK YOU, :)

Your info was good and very detailed from the first time, only that I wanted to have a medical reference to post on the reference section.
I haven't updated the post for a wile, I'll see when I have more time to add all your data.

Quote
If we take the immune semen allergy theory... IF we have mild symptoms while getting aroused it means we have an allergy (or some reaction whatever it is called) to one of those components !

I've read that arousal alone stimulate the production of a pre-ejaculate fluid, which I think it could contain the allergens, in a modest quantity, which generate the post arousal symptoms. In my oppinion this explains the mild symptoms after arousal.
(I also have mild symptoms only from arousal)

UPDATE: I found this article: http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/content/full/26/4/459 (http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/content/full/26/4/459), for physical and chemical properties of human semen. There is a great amount of data there.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Habibou on June 04, 2011, 04:29:55 PM
Yes, great website !  :)
I remember Demo or someone else found out the exact components of sperm/semen and posted it on the NSF , it would be great if we find it !
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: emi_b on June 04, 2011, 04:38:50 PM
It seems that the first post of B_Jim also contains the components of semen:

-------------------------------------------
"Composition of Semen
According to Sandor Gardos, Ph.D, the former About Sexuality Guide, it
contains very modest quantities of the following substances...

ascorbic acid, blood-group antigens, calcium, chlorine, cholesterol,
choline, citric acid, creatine, deoxyribonucleic acid, fructose,
glutathione, hyaluronidase, inositol, lactic acid, magnesium,
nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, purine, pyrimidine, pyruvic acid,
sodium, sorbitol, spermidine, spermine, urea, uric acid, vitamin B12,
and zinc."

-------------------------------------------

I think that the semen composition is crucial for our understanding of POIS.

UPDATES - more resources found:  :D
  Biochemical analysis of human semen (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2605.1982.tb00308.x/abstract) [discovered in the references section of the previous article]
  http://www.gfmer.ch/Endo/PGC_network/Semen_analysis_rrumbullaku.htm (http://www.gfmer.ch/Endo/PGC_network/Semen_analysis_rrumbullaku.htm)
  http://www.gfmer.ch/Endo/Lectures_09/semen_analysis.htm (http://www.gfmer.ch/Endo/Lectures_09/semen_analysis.htm)
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on June 05, 2011, 05:15:43 PM
Hi emi_b
When I was researching sperm regeneration I came across this explanation of the process and pathway the sperm goes through. It is well illustrated by your section view of the male anatomy.


http://www.ehow.com/about_5453153_long-regenerate-sperm.html (http://www.ehow.com/about_5453153_long-regenerate-sperm.html)

How Long Does it Take to Regenerate Sperm?
By Andrea Townsley, eHow Contributor
?

Men produce millions of sperm daily, unlike women who are born with all the eggs they'll ever have. The cycle of sperm regeneration takes approximately 74 days on average, so this should be taken into consideration when trying to conceive.

    Production Cycle

 1.  Sperm are manufactured in the testes in the seminiferous tubules, and after their heads and tails are developed, they move to the epididymis to mature further.
2. They are stored there until they are ready to be expelled from the body. During ejaculation, the sperm are pushed up the vas deferens, a tube which loops around the bladder.
3.  The ends of the vas deferentia (plural of vas deferens) are known as ejaculatory ducts, and here, the sperm mixes with semen from the seminal vesicles.
4.  The ducts lead to the urethra; the prostate adds its secretions to the fluid at this time.
The Cowper's glands, or bulbourethral glands, also add secretions.
5.  The semen with all the sperm and secretions is then ejaculated through the rest of the urethra and out into the woman's body.
    
Significance

        Healthy sperm are needed for conception to occur. Sperm are regenerated in a constant cycle, giving each ejaculation fresh, healthy sperm so as to fertilize an egg.
    Effects

        Since sperm are also cells of the body, they receive the same nutrients and toxins that are put into the body. If a man is taking care of himself, eating properly, not smoking or using drugs and getting the right vitamins, his sperm will most likely be healthy, unless there is some kind of underlying problem. However, if a man does partake in unhealthy activities, the sperm will also be unhealthy. The fix is simple when infertility is related to an unhealthy male lifestyle: Stop the problematic habits and the sperm will become healthier. It will take 74 days or so for this to occur, since new sperm take about this long to go through the cycle and regenerate.
    Benefits

        The benefits of waiting for sperm to regenerate before trying to conceive are numerous, but the main reason is to allow a healthy sperm to fertilize the egg, giving it the best chance of survival. Defective sperm can lead to a defective embryo, where there are chromosomal abnormalities or birth defects. Many zygotes with chromosomal abnormalities are spontaneously aborted (miscarried) since they have no chance for survival outside the womb anyway. This is why many couples choose to use birth control for three months after a man has made significant lifestyle changes, like quitting smoking or drinking alcohol.
    Variability

        It is often said that sperm take three months to regenerate, but 74 days is only two and a half months. Still, this may be to account for individual differences.


Read more: How Long Does it Take to Regenerate Sperm? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5453153_long-regenerate-sperm.html#ixzz1ORRhu3sL


thanks, Animus
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: emi_b on June 06, 2011, 02:51:40 AM
Thank you Animus.

This is one of the things I've searched looked for.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on June 07, 2011, 10:27:14 PM
Hi emi_b,  What do think about taking this segment and copy/paste it right below the section of the male anatomy...
thanks,
-Animus.

Semen Production Cycle

 1.  Sperm are manufactured in the testes in the seminiferous tubules, and after their heads and tails are developed, they move to the epididymis to mature further.
2. They are stored there until they are ready to be expelled from the body. During ejaculation, the sperm are pushed up the vas deferens, a tube which loops around the bladder.
3.  The ends of the vas deferentia (plural of vas deferens) are known as ejaculatory ducts, and here, the sperm mixes with semen from the seminal vesicles.
4.  The ducts lead to the urethra; the prostate adds its secretions to the fluid at this time.
The Cowper's glands, or bulbourethral glands, also add secretions.
5.  The semen with all the sperm and secretions is then ejaculated through the rest of the urethra and out into the woman's body.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: emi_b on June 08, 2011, 04:13:27 AM
I've updated the post. Thank you for this.
I hope I formated well it and it look pleasantly.
Should I add the contributor name? It could be better.

  I believe it would be better that anyone to contribute directly to this, so if you have any thing to add to it write here and I will try to add it on the main post.
  Maybe when a mini-wiki (as Daveman said) will be implemented on the main website, things will be simplified.
  It is hard to work in BCCode, for such a project. (the source code of the post is not very humman readable)
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Daveman on June 08, 2011, 08:23:24 AM
I would take this segment and copy/paste it right below the section of the male anatomy...
-Animus.

Semen Production Cycle

 1.  Sperm are manufactured in the testes in the seminiferous tubules, and after their heads and tails are developed, they move to the epididymis to mature further.
2. They are stored there until they are ready to be expelled from the body. During ejaculation, the sperm are pushed up the vas deferens, a tube which loops around the bladder.
3.  The ends of the vas deferentia (plural of vas deferens) are known as ejaculatory ducts, and here, the sperm mixes with semen from the seminal vesicles.
4.  The ducts lead to the urethra; the prostate adds its secretions to the fluid at this time.
The Cowper's glands, or bulbourethral glands, also add secretions.
5.  The semen with all the sperm and secretions is then ejaculated through the rest of the urethra and out into the woman's body.

I see that the part about the regeneration time is not included. And that's fine for the moment, because there seems to be a conflict. Up until now I've heard that the regeneration time is near the same 5 days that POIS seems to last. And such is a factor in the theory of POIS itself being related to sperm regeneration. But Animus's article indicates 74 days.

I think it's important that we eventually include the regeneration time in the main post, but let's look it up and clear up this conflicting information.

Thx.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on June 08, 2011, 01:58:43 PM
I've updated the post. Thank you for this.
I hope I formated well it and it look pleasantly.
Should I add the contributor name? It could be better.

  I believe it would be better that anyone to contribute directly to this, so if you have any thing to add to it write here and I will try to add it on the main post.
  Maybe when a mini-wiki (as Daveman said) will be implemented on the main website, things will be simplified.
  It is hard to work in BCCode, for such a project. (the source code of the post is not very humman readable)

emi,  it looks great, like you said for now, given the current format, it's excellent. Thanks for getting this started so we can add into it. Yes, you could add the contributor name and reference. --By Andrea Townsley, eHow Contributor--
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on June 08, 2011, 02:22:38 PM
I would take this segment and copy/paste it right below the section of the male anatomy...
-Animus.

Semen Production Cycle

 1.  Sperm are manufactured in the testes in the seminiferous tubules, and after their heads and tails are developed, they move to the epididymis to mature further.
2. They are stored there until they are ready to be expelled from the body. During ejaculation, the sperm are pushed up the vas deferens, a tube which loops around the bladder.
3.  The ends of the vas deferentia (plural of vas deferens) are known as ejaculatory ducts, and here, the sperm mixes with semen from the seminal vesicles.
4.  The ducts lead to the urethra; the prostate adds its secretions to the fluid at this time.
The Cowper's glands, or bulbourethral glands, also add secretions.
5.  The semen with all the sperm and secretions is then ejaculated through the rest of the urethra and out into the woman's body.

I see that the part about the regeneration time is not included. And that's fine for the moment, because there seems to be a conflict. Up until now I've heard that the regeneration time is near the same 5 days that POIS seems to last. And such is a factor in the theory of POIS itself being related to sperm regeneration. But Animus's article indicates 74 days.

I think it's important that we eventually include the regeneration time in the main post, but let's look it up and clear up this conflicting information.

Thx.

Emi-b,
yes, daveman, this is an interesting point... I've also come across conflicting data on that topic. This article says that it takes 74 days to regenerate the sperm in semen. However, yes, it does not indicate how the other components work within that time period. I am also interested to find that out.  I think as one piece of the puzzle we can put in 74 days for sperm regeneration for now? And leave the others blank? Perhaps they all take the same time, or perhaps they take different times.

Here is some additional data which we might add to the chart in some form, just a start, taking into account your suggestions:

Composition of Semen: Maybe a "pie-chart" for this would be good!?  :D
there is a chart at this link which is where I g0t this information
1.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semen#Composition_of_human_semen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semen#Composition_of_human_semen)
Testes: 2-5%
Seminal Vesicles: 65-75%
Prostate: 25-30%
Bulbouretal Gland: <1%

Semen Regeneration Time:
1. Sperm take 74 days to fully mature, and are produced at a constant rate of millions per day.

thx
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Daveman on June 08, 2011, 04:15:11 PM
Thanks Animus. there's something in what you said that made me think that although the maturing cycle is 74 days, this may not mean that the regeneration cycle is 74 days. The epididymis is a very thin and entangled tube several (was it 15) meters long. The sperm matures here, so must take it's time to pass through it. Even if we ejaculate, I suspect, and seem to remember that it can't really leave the epididymis until it's ready.

However, that which we eject, needs to be replaced, so a new load, corresponding to that ejected is produced, but is less than the whole 74 days worth.

In the picture there's a sort of bulbous structure, beside the seminal sac. Perhaps that stores about 5 days worth.

The only problem with this theory is that this sort of implies that the regeneration is more or less constant. Continually feeding sperm into the epididymis at a constant rate, filling a sac for immediate use.

Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on June 11, 2011, 12:40:57 AM
hello daveman, emi
yes, I think it happens at a continuous pace- like at an assembly line. The sperm are manufactured in the testes, and the epididymis is part maturation chamber and part storage facility- like a warehouse. So maybe you're right in that it can hold about "x" ejaculations of mature sperm or so... However it is being continually replenished at a slow daily pace.

Whenever we ejaculate I don't think the epididymis is emptied completely- it's more like some trucks came to take a "load" from the warehouse (no pun intended!) but didn't take everything.

What also strikes me as interesting is that sperm are a living organism and a lot more complex than the rest of the fluids that make up semen. They are only about 5%. The rest is secretions, which are non-living, and perhaps don't take as much maturation period? This is the question I curious about is- what the regeneration time is for the rest of the ejaculate...
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on June 11, 2011, 12:46:48 AM
Hey, emi,
What do you think of a pie-chart for the semen composition divided up by gland? Such as mentioned in my previous post.  I think it could be interesting. Maybe I'll try to do it. what is good for that? Colorful pie chart, I could make it in autocad, but there is probably a better program for it.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: emi_b on June 11, 2011, 04:50:34 AM
Quote
Hey, emi,
What do you think of a pie-chart for the semen composition divided up by gland? Such as mentioned in my previous post.  I think it could be interesting. Maybe I'll try to do it. what is good for that? Colorful pie chart, I could make it in autocad, but there is probably a better program for it.

Great idea! I know that it is possible to do such a pie chart in Excel, or something similar, but I don't know many about autocad.

Quote
Emi- I'm committed to building up your thread with interesting facts and illustrations. Hope to work on it more with you. How is your research coming along?

Thank you. It would be great if more members (not only me) could have access to edit it, but you can post here, and I'll add it to the main post until a solution will be found.
Maybe Daveman know how this should be done. Finally I think the best solution is having a wiki. Daveman said it would be on his agenda.
Yes I'll want to work more on it with you.
I haven't progressed with research these days, I'll see what I'll do, because I have days when I don't feel good.

Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on June 13, 2011, 01:25:22 AM
I made this pie-chart to illustrate the relative volumes of fluid by gland. It's very interesting for me to visualize this, I was surprised to see how significant a portion of semen apparently is made by the Seminal Vesicles.
Hopefully we can add this to the illustrations on the first post... thanks- Animus.

Dave Edit: OK smaller now!
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: emi_b on June 13, 2011, 11:08:46 PM
I made this pie-chart to illustrate the relative volumes of fluid by gland. It's very interesting for me to visualize this, I was surprised to see how significant a portion of semen apparently is made by the Seminal Vesicles.
Hopefully we can add this to the illustrations on the first post... thanks- Animus.

Wow! It looks great. Good job. Thank you for this. :) Great illustration.

I have tried to put it on the main post and there are some problems:
  1. It is very large. Almost as big as the whole post. Maybe we should shrink it.
  2. Because it is a post attached file, it isn't visible for non-loged members, and non-members.
Any solutions?
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Vandemolen on June 14, 2011, 06:39:00 PM
I m. for a few hours (my plan was to have arousal but nog O.). Not so smart. Look what happened: I had a rash on the hand which touched the sperm. For me this is another prove that in my case it's about allergies. Of course maybe there are other causes too.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/148/img2506u.jpg

P.S. Animus asked me to post this picture. :)
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Daveman on June 15, 2011, 01:57:50 PM
emi_b, send me a PM to remind me about the showing of images to non-members. I'll also try to resize the photo.

It would be great to se a pie chart according to components too somebody!
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on June 15, 2011, 07:00:58 PM
I made this pie-chart to illustrate the relative volumes of fluid by gland. It's very interesting for me to visualize this, I was surprised to see how significant a portion of semen apparently is made by the Seminal Vesicles.
Hopefully we can add this to the illustrations on the first post... thanks- Animus.

Wow! It looks great. Good job. Thank you for this. :) Great illustration.

I have tried to put it on the main post and there are some problems:
  1. It is very large. Almost as big as the whole post. Maybe we should shrink it.
  2. Because it is a post attached file, it isn't visible for non-loged members, and non-members.
Any solutions?

Thanks, Emi,
I'll try to work on it some more over the weekend when I have more time. Or looks like Dave may be able to help too. That would be great. Thanks, Dave.
best,
Animus
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on June 17, 2011, 01:57:40 AM
Dave: Awesome job on shrinking the pie chart. Thanks, it looks great.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on June 17, 2011, 02:11:00 AM
I came across an interesting fact while researching the composiition of semen.
Apparently the Seminal Vesicles produce these Prostaglandins, which are "involved in suppressing an immune response by the female against the foreign semen". I thought that was interesting- in terms of the auto-immune theory, because this could be something to investigate regarding POIS. I wonder if they are looking at these prostaglandins more.  I just thought it was interesting. So there is a component of semen which is meant to suppress the immune system.

On Wikipedia:

Seminal Vesicles create:
   amino acids, citrate, enzymes, flavins, fructose (the main energy source of sperm cells, which rely entirely on sugars from the seminal plasma for energy), phosphorylcholine, prostaglandins (involved in suppressing an immune response by the female against the foreign semen), proteins, vitamin C
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Samir on June 17, 2011, 09:22:03 AM
This is an interesting point.  Has anyone has their estrogen levels checked?  If estrogen levels are elevated, then maybe that's causing the attack.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on June 18, 2011, 09:10:32 PM
Hi Emi,
It looks like daveman was able to reduce the size of the pie chart! Which is great. do you think it might fit now into the main post?  And let's ask dave about getting the images to be viewed by non-members. Eventually we'll straighten out the image viewing problem. But let's try to get the images in there. Thanks, Animus.

I like the image of the sperm too. Can we include that? make a separate chapter on the sperm component? We can also say that full sperm development takes 74 days. (I'm still looking for information about regeneration of the 95% other fluids)... 
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: emi_b on June 19, 2011, 01:25:11 PM
I've put the image on the main post.
I'll hope to come with more things and more work, on this topic, when I feel better, because I don't feel good these days.
There are some interesting things with these findings.
I hope there is no problem.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on June 19, 2011, 06:37:10 PM
I've put the image on the main post.
I'll hope to come with more things and more work, on this topic, when I feel better, because I don't feel good these days.
There are some interesting things with these findings.
I hope there is no problem.

Thank you.

I completely understand. Thanks for your excellent work, Emi_b! Thanks for posting that image on the main post, it looks great.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Daveman on June 21, 2011, 06:36:50 PM
Hi Emi,
It looks like daveman was able to reduce the size of the pie chart! Which is great. do you think it might fit now into the main post?  And let's ask dave about getting the images to be viewed by non-members. Eventually we'll straighten out the image viewing problem. But let's try to get the images in there. Thanks, Animus.

I like the image of the sperm too. Can we include that? make a separate chapter on the sperm component? We can also say that full sperm development takes 74 days. (I'm still looking for information about regeneration of the 95% other fluids)... 

Didn't have much luck with seeing how to let unregistered users see the images. But I'm back with a mre consistent access to internet so I'll keep looking into it.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Samir on June 22, 2011, 04:36:31 PM
Hi Emi,
It looks like daveman was able to reduce the size of the pie chart! Which is great. do you think it might fit now into the main post?  And let's ask dave about getting the images to be viewed by non-members. Eventually we'll straighten out the image viewing problem. But let's try to get the images in there. Thanks, Animus.

I like the image of the sperm too. Can we include that? make a separate chapter on the sperm component? We can also say that full sperm development takes 74 days. (I'm still looking for information about regeneration of the 95% other fluids)... 

Didn't have much luck with seeing how to let unregistered users see the images. But I'm back with a mre consistent access to internet so I'll keep looking into it.

There should be some sort of option in the guest usergroup.  At least that's how it works in vbulletin.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Daveman on June 22, 2011, 06:52:33 PM
Hi Emi,
It looks like daveman was able to reduce the size of the pie chart! Which is great. do you think it might fit now into the main post?  And let's ask dave about getting the images to be viewed by non-members. Eventually we'll straighten out the image viewing problem. But let's try to get the images in there. Thanks, Animus.

I like the image of the sperm too. Can we include that? make a separate chapter on the sperm component? We can also say that full sperm development takes 74 days. (I'm still looking for information about regeneration of the 95% other fluids)... 

Didn't have much luck with seeing how to let unregistered users see the images. But I'm back with a mre consistent access to internet so I'll keep looking into it.

There should be some sort of option in the guest usergroup.  At least that's how it works in vbulletin.

Yeah, that's where it was. I went there already but I hadn't looked close enough, it was the second to last option.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on June 24, 2011, 09:01:35 PM
Thank you, Samir, and Daveman for figuring that out!
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Samir on June 24, 2011, 11:49:50 PM
You're welcome. :)  Helping how I can.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: emi_b on June 25, 2011, 02:52:27 AM
I've put the image on the main post.
I'll hope to come with more things and more work, on this topic, when I feel better, because I don't feel good these days.
There are some interesting things with these findings.
I hope there is no problem.

Thank you.

I completely understand. Thank you for your excellent work, Emi_b, it is even more impressive considering what you are going through. Thanks for posting that image on the main post, it looks great.

Thank you. Although I entered the forum, I don't have enough will to do things.

I like the image of the sperm too. Can we include that? make a separate chapter on the sperm component? We can also say that full sperm development takes 74 days. (I'm still looking for information about regeneration of the 95% other fluids)...

I have seen that image, and I have a question: What is the author? There could be permission problems, if we use it on the main post.
Thank you all for figuring out the problem with image visibility.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Daveman on June 25, 2011, 10:02:28 AM
Yes it would be good to have a whole theme on sperm and semen. We can start without picture if it's a concern. And look for a solution to this at a later date.

Along the 74 day recuperation data, it would also be good to detail a bit more that whole regeneration mechanism, and work in or detail the 5 to 7 day relationship that seems to tie POIS to this part of the cycle.

As it is, it seems that the 5  day regeneration cycle ISN't relevant. In that, due to the very long epydidimis,  sporadic sperm needs are reduced to a constant production flow into the begining of the epydidimis.

However, perhaps other semen components are more influenced by sporadic demand causing the regeneration stress mentioned.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on June 28, 2011, 10:13:43 PM
Hi guys,
I don't remember where I got that image of the sperm, but I'll find out.
So, I came across some other interesting info on this site:http://www.ehow.com/about_5503589_long-sperm-mature.html (http://www.ehow.com/about_5503589_long-sperm-mature.html)

There is a little more elaboration about the regeneration time.

Quote:
Time Frame

    According to Fertility.com, sperm maturation---from beginning to full maturity "takes about 74 days." Spermatogenesis is estimated to take six weeks. According to Oulou University, the estimated transit time for sperm to transfer in humans through the epididymis is two to six days, during which the sperm continue to mature and gain movement (motility). Fertility.com notes that sperm can be stored in the epididymis for up to two weeks.

 I thought an interesting note from the above quote is the 2-6 day period it takes for sperm to transfer through the epidydimus... This seems to match the POIS cycle a little closer.  Perhaps what I need to look for is more elaboration like this, and possibly also data on the other remaining components regeneration time. I'll continue to search. thanks.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Daveman on June 29, 2011, 12:49:52 PM
Good find Animus, and I agree, I think this area needs more elaboration. I think it is quite important.

Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: emi_b on July 09, 2011, 04:36:40 AM
I'm back.

Animus if you want you can write a section for semen regeneration, and I will try to insert it in the right place on the main post.
I saw you found many resources. Good findings.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Daveman on July 09, 2011, 08:20:04 AM
Love you guys!
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on July 10, 2011, 02:18:02 PM
I'm back.

I've put the sperm image on the main post.
Animus if you want you can write a section for semen regeneration, and I will try to insert it in the right place on the main post.
I saw you found many resources. Good findings.

Thank you.

good to have you back, emi!.  Thanks for posting the sperm cell image. It looks really good. I'll work on that section description some more.   The image of the sperm cell is from Wikipedia and is public domain. thanks!
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Habibou on July 11, 2011, 02:12:19 PM
Semen Content
 
ascorbic acid (vitamin C, for tissue maintenance)
 blood-group antigens (from immune system)
 calcium (mineral)
 chlorine (oxidizing agent)
 cholesterol (steroid alcohol present in body fluids)
 chlorine (base, part of the vitamin B complex)
 citric acid (occurs during cellular metabolism)
 creatine (nitrogenous substance found in muscle)
 deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA)
 fructose (sugar used for energy)
 glutathione (peptide amino acid)
 Glycoproteins (cancer fighting agent)
 hyaluronidase (enzyme)
 inositol (sugar found in muscles)
 lactic acid (byproduct of muscle use)
 magnesium (mineral)
 nitrogen (gas found in all living tissue)
 phosphorus (mineral)
 prostaglandins (good for pregnancy)
 potassium (mineral)
 purine (compound of uric acid)
 pyrimidine (organic base)
 pyruvic acid (formed from either glucose or glycogen)
 selenium (cancer fighting agent)
 sodium (salt)
 sorbitol (body alcohol)
 spermidine (catalytic enzyme)
 spermine (ammonia compound found in sperm)
 urea (from urine)
 uric acid (from urine)
 vitamin B12 (for proper function of nervous system and metabolism)
 zinc (mineral)

Source(s):
www.sementherapy.com/

I guess same as Demo researches !
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on July 13, 2011, 01:14:49 PM
Thank you, Habibou. It's good to have that information.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: lauracostis on July 14, 2011, 12:13:06 AM
I would take this segment and copy/paste it right below the section of the male anatomy...
-Animus.

Semen Production Cycle

 1.  Sperm are manufactured in the testes in the seminiferous tubules, and after their heads and tails are developed, they move to the epididymis to mature further.
2. They are stored there until they are ready to be expelled from the body. During ejaculation, the sperm are pushed up the vas deferens, a tube which loops around the bladder.
3.  The ends of the vas deferentia (plural of vas deferens) are known as ejaculatory ducts, and here, the sperm mixes with semen from the seminal vesicles.
4.  The ducts lead to the urethra; the prostate adds its secretions to the fluid at this time.
The Cowper's glands, or bulbourethral glands, also add secretions.
5.  The semen with all the sperm and secretions is then ejaculated through the rest of the urethra and out into the woman's body.

I see that the part about the regeneration time is not included. And that's fine for the moment, because there seems to be a conflict. Up until now I've heard that the regeneration time is near the same 5 days that POIS seems to last. And such is a factor in the theory of POIS itself being related to sperm regeneration. But Animus's article indicates 74 days.

I think it's important that we eventually include the regeneration time in the main post, but let's look it up and clear up this conflicting information.

Thx.

in relation to the sperm regeneration question.  This 5 day sperm regeneration period is the time that it takes for the final conversion of sperm in the epididymis.  This is the most important part, because it is the part that is triggered by sperm loss/ejaculation.  when we ejaculate and lose sperm, the sperm that have been constantly produced and maturing over the last two and half months are sent to the epididymis.  There is a testosterone spike that corresponds with the maturation of the sperm in the epididymis, the testies produce increased amounts of testosterone which in turn cause the maturation process to occur.  A member of the NSF purchased a article on testosterone levels after ejaculation probably about a year ago.  it shows that after ejaculation the loss of the small amount of matured sperm from the epididymis causes testosterone levels to rise from the normal baseline for 7 days, once the small amount of mature sperm are replaced on day 7 testosterone levels fall back to baseline rapidly by day 8.  so on day 7 the total testosterone spike from baseline has returned to normal.  From days 0-5 there is a slow gradual increase in testostrone, from day 6-7 there is a huge spike in testosterone, it is believed that this spike pushes testosterone levels past the threshold of the hypothalamic-pituitary axis and turns the entire process off.  In the article it said that everybody has this 7 day cycle.  It also states that if you have an ejaculation before the end of this 7 day cycle the cycle will just start over again and will last for another 7 days.  If you dont wait 7 days between every ejaculation you will be in the beginning of this cycle continuously.   This is the reason in the past that I have talked about one of the neuro-endocrine chemicals involved with the process of sperm regeneration being the culprit for an immunological reaction.  this would make much more sense that this antigen that is causing an immune reaction is continues during this week long process than just a single exposure to something like your own semen lasting 7 days.  

the article is called "A research of on the relationship between ejaculation and serum testosterone level in men"
(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2895/testosteronexdaysgraph.jpg)
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on July 16, 2011, 12:21:15 AM
Lauracostis,
your above post is fascinating. I would like to read the article you refer to. do you have a link to it? Please PM me or otherwise post.   One of the reasons I'm excited is because we're starting to see that there is a relationship between the period of semen regeneration and the period of POIS. However tentative it might be at the moment. I would like to cite this data in our main page post and formalize it. But I would need a specific footnote or reference. Thank you.
best regards,
Animus
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: lauracostis on July 16, 2011, 12:32:54 PM
Lauracostis,
your above post is fascinating. I would like to read the article you refer to. do you have a link to it? Please PM me or otherwise post.   One of the reasons I'm excited is because we're starting to see that there is a relationship between the period of semen regeneration and the period of POIS. However tentative it might be at the moment. I would like to cite this data in our main page post and formalize it. But I would need a specific footnote or reference. Thank you.
best regards,
Animus
check your messages and then I will send it to you in an email
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on July 21, 2011, 07:54:11 PM
Hi guys,
After reading the article that LC sent me, I've worked on some illustrations we could perhaps use in our thread.  Let me know what you think. i've tried to keep it as theory-neutral as possible and just take one small step...
There are 4 illustrations with text next to them. They are meant to be seen somewhat in succession 1-4.
Let me know what you think.  
Animus
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on July 21, 2011, 07:58:47 PM
Fig.2 attached
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on July 21, 2011, 07:59:18 PM
Fig.3 attached
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on July 21, 2011, 07:59:51 PM
Fig.4 attached.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: lauracostis on July 22, 2011, 01:39:54 AM
good job on the graphs animus.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on July 31, 2011, 06:02:25 PM
good job on the graphs animus.

thanks lc. I just re-uploaded them this weekend and they are much sharper now because Emi suggested saving them as PNG instead of PDFs and that made a difference!
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Daveman on August 01, 2011, 01:05:34 PM
The graphs are great, thank for the effort Animus.

I think they deserve to be "published" with our summary up to now. They help to clarify a doubt that arised over the difference between the 74 day maturation cycle and the length of the POIS cycle. So rather than being related to sperm maturation, it seems more related to accelerated spermatogenisis.

There are still doubts however, the part in yellow, the POIS duration cycle ranges from 4 to 21 days, or even longer in some cases and conditions.

I often have sessions of 14 days sometimes of 21 days.

This may not mean that the "theory" is not right, however we do need to look at why this variation could exist. Like perhaps one is less sensitive to the testosterone feedback signal, and therefore produce sperm for longer periods, or the capacity for sperm regeneration in some is much lower.... and not least, why do WE suffer during this regeneration period?

Thanks. All of this counts and is very useful. And in our serious and meticulous way, we should continue filling in pieces of the puzzle.

Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: emi_b on August 15, 2011, 01:15:04 PM
Thank you Animus.
 
When I started this thread I haven't seen what a huge task would be to complete it. Now I don't have enough will and productive* time do it.
I think I'll let it in this state for a while. If you have an idea I would like to know.

How the images you made should be presented?
Something like this? It seems that the images are shrink when are inserted in text. (My mistake)

* when I can realy do something

----------------------------------

Semen regeneration theory:

(http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=111.0;attach=136)
(http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=111.0;attach=133)
(http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=111.0;attach=131)
(http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=111.0;attach=138)
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Vincent M on September 01, 2011, 08:08:20 PM
I had a big response, but I deleted it to save room. Just remember that "psychosomatic" means that there is no physiological cause- not even anything wrong with the brain, neurotransmitters, or hormones. I believe all three of those things are affected by POIS. Just to be clear, Cornelius, you still believe that all or most of your POIS symptoms originate from something physically wrong with your body, correct?
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Daveman on September 02, 2011, 06:49:06 AM
Cornelius,

It´s certainly a vicious circle! BUT, we´ve spent too much time disproving the psycho-somatic theory.

POIS is very stressful, and so it has to have it's psychological consequences. But we have to consider the cause first.

I give Habibous case as an example:

He went to one of the top in POIS, Dr. Goldmeier in England. He showed positive for semen alergy AND was diagnosed as havein Chronic fatigue Syndrome as a result of POIS. This example is valid, becasue ut shows that if you try to treat the CFS without solving the POIS, you'll never cure it. POIS causes an imbalance AND depletion of crucial elements in our system, again refer to the B6 deficiency thread http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=197.0

We've said before, that it MAY be useful to look at cures for depression (as a side treatment): 1) one could have a natural tendancy toward depression ON TOP of POIS, 2) the stress of POIS can lead to depression as a by-product. But if you don't resolve the POIS problem, the depression will ust keep coming back and comeing back and coming back.......

Calling it psychosomatic is just sweeping it under the carpet, and you'll be back here again in three weeks saying, "I tried the psychi-somatic approach, and I'm worse than ever".

It's better to agree, "Yes, POIS makes my depressions worse, and should look at alleviating them until there's a more definitive solution", or "Yes, my POIS makes me ache all over and drives me into a hole", but I can look at allleviating these symptoms meantime.

And the cure is close, and Niacin too seems to provide a good deal of relief while we are waiting for the definitive cure. And more than relief, nicain seems to be pointing right at a more in depth explanation for why we feel like we feel in POIS.

Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Animus on October 18, 2011, 12:46:05 AM
Hi Cornelius,
It's great to hear your news- and that you've got an accurate diagnosis. Thanks for your thorough reporting! Aspergers and ADD.
Good luck with your continued therapy.
Title: Re: Theoretical discussion of POIS
Post by: Daveman on November 26, 2011, 05:16:44 PM
This is ALL, all the more reason we need real research NOW.

We are in a hole, where so many things get swung around in a viscious vortex. So many intertwining symptoms. POIS is an imbalance such that it reaches into several systems, and yet other systems too have their imbalances which either produce symptoms like POIS or accentuate the imbalance either producing or tipping the balance of POIS into it's area of havoc.

It creates havoc for US who want to get to the bottom of it. We all have our theories, and no one theory has been proven enough to make enough sense to any of us.

NO ONE, not even Dr. Waldinger can say in a technically convincing manner what POIS is.

And we need this more than anything, so we can unite and feel like we have something real to work with.

We have found niacin, some have found testosterone, some from ADD treatments. others with fenugreek and even others with desensitization, and each of those believe they have the answer. But probably the naswer is, in some part, in all of those AND ONLY RESEARCH will find it.