Author Topic: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances  (Read 11900 times)

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2019, 12:14:04 AM »
From wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinolinic_acid
"The fact that NMDA receptor antagonists possess antidepressant properties suggests that increased levels of quinolinic acid in patients with depression may overactivate NMDA receptors.[11] By inducing increased levels of quinolinic acid in the cerebral spinal fluid with interferon α, researchers have demonstrated that increased quinolinic acid levels correlate with increased depressive symptoms."
This is interesting, so kynurenic acid blocks glycine site NMDA receptors, yet quinolinic acid overactivates it? How would I then have them both increased? Shouldn't I be afraid that agonizing the NMDAr would induce depressive properties? That seems paradoxical a bit. 

Muon

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2019, 01:17:20 PM »
So do you guys think Quinolinic acid serum level have any meaning in POIS? When should this be measured?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nLgk-A7TpkU1k7Z3GTeH9kPrR3siqKcW/view

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2019, 12:35:48 AM »
So do you guys think Quinolinic acid serum level have any meaning in POIS? When should this be measured?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nLgk-A7TpkU1k7Z3GTeH9kPrR3siqKcW/view
Not just Quinolinic acid, Kynurenic acid and tryptophan also. Since brain symptoms last the whole week, it's safe to make the test anytime after orgasm for about 3 days or so. I think the worst the brain symptoms are, the best it would be to make the test.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 12:41:44 AM by Nas »

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2019, 01:32:27 PM »
Quantum! You're getting us intrigued :/

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2019, 01:36:42 PM »
I wonder how Dexamethasone works for this theory, probably by anti-oxdizing pro-inflammatory Cytokines.

Gabin

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2019, 04:12:18 PM »
But I have found some interesting references, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kynurenic_acid#Role_in_disease ,and https://examine.com/topics/nmda-neurotransmission/.
I pulled all repleys from last year in my quote ;D
Hmm, tick born teory is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kynurenic_acid#Role_in_disease allways somwhere oround here , posible damage from one tipe of enchepalitis in some of us( cant forget tick bite in testicle).

I had a tick bite in ... penis not long before the symptoms have started. Need to revisit the Lyme disease topic here on the forum.

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2019, 01:40:48 PM »
Quantum! You're getting us intrigued :/
We're getting even more intrigued Quantum!

demografx

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2019, 02:49:31 PM »
Quantum! You're getting us intrigued :/
We're getting even more intrigued Quantum!
Ok ok ok, how much do I pay to join The Intrigued Club?
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2019, 03:50:44 PM »
Quantum! You're getting us intrigued :/
We're getting even more intrigued Quantum!
Ok ok ok, how much do I pay to join The Intrigued Club?
It's free! Just ask Quantum a question that'll take an entire month for him to answer and you're in!

Quantum

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2019, 11:22:12 PM »
From wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinolinic_acid
"The fact that NMDA receptor antagonists possess antidepressant properties suggests that increased levels of quinolinic acid in patients with depression may overactivate NMDA receptors.[11] By inducing increased levels of quinolinic acid in the cerebral spinal fluid with interferon ?, researchers have demonstrated that increased quinolinic acid levels correlate with increased depressive symptoms."
This is interesting, so kynurenic acid blocks glycine site NMDA receptors, yet quinolinic acid overactivates it? How would I then have them both increased? Shouldn't I be afraid that agonizing the NMDAr would induce depressive properties? That seems paradoxical a bit.

Hi Nas, sorry for the delay, but as I have said in my previous post, I was on vacations, and just got back yesterday to do on return.  Whenever you have a question for me, please be patient, it will usually takes far less than one month before I get back to you ;)


About what you see as a paradox, I refer you again at the diagram I have linked to my January 2015 post, at http://fr.slideshare.net/adonissfera/tryptophan-and-madness/17-Cytokines_Come_in_Two_FlavorsProInflammatory   .  If you look carefully, you will see that the 2 kynurenine pathways tryptophan is shunt to happen in two different cell types: 

the KMO enzyme leading to quinolinic acid is active in the microglia and produces quinolinic acid, and causes emotional symptoms

 and the KAT enzyme is present in the astrocytes, leading to kynurenic acid production, and cause cognitive symptoms

so, 2 different cell types, having a different distribution in the brain.

both enzymes, KMO and KAT, have kynurenine as substrate ( = "input" substance).

Back in 2015, I search a lot to find natural KMO inhibitor, which would have been great to test my hypothesis on quinolinic acid causing my emotional symptoms , but did not find any ( KAT inhibitor were not interesting for me since I have no cognitive symptoms).  So, I then went back up in the chain and decided to work on blocking TDO and IDO, so there would be less tryptophan turned into kynurenine, so less substrate available for KMO and KAT, to turn TRP in QUIN or kynureninc acid, as explained above.

This worked for me, in addition to all other substance in my pre-pack and with my overall method, as described in detail in my detailed post on that subject, so I stayed at that.

My hypothesis have still many questions attached to it, but not a lot of discussions have followed my presentation of it on the forum, in 2015, so many stones have been left unturned.  I had read dozens and dozens of scientific articles around this subject, 4 years ago, but not since.  I am not an expert on this topic, so I cannot answer all questions about this.  I just see that my method works for me, and it may be in part because it helps tryptophan not to be changed in kynurenine, and then in too much quinolonic acid (and too much kynurenic acid, but this is not of concern in my case).

I hope this will help you get further in your own research, Nas .

You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Quantum

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2019, 11:24:49 PM »
So do you guys think Quinolinic acid serum level have any meaning in POIS? When should this be measured?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nLgk-A7TpkU1k7Z3GTeH9kPrR3siqKcW/view

Hi Muon,

I feel it would be a loss of money, because the serum value will say nothing about what is happening in the microglia ( for quinolinic acid) and in the astrocytes ( for kynurenic acid), in the brain, behind the blood brain barrier.
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

demografx

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2019, 11:49:24 PM »
Hi Nas, sorry for the delay, but as I have said in my previous post, I was on vacations, and just got back yesterday to do on return.  Whenever you have a question for me, please be patient, it will usually takes far less than one month before I get back to you ;)
Hope you know I was joking.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2019, 12:00:07 PM »
Hi Nas, sorry for the delay, but as I have said in my previous post, I was on vacations, and just got back yesterday to do on return.  Whenever you have a question for me, please be patient, it will usually takes far less than one month before I get back to you ;)
Sorry I might've been inpatient, I get frustrated when I waste time not fighting against this curse.
About what you see as a paradox, I refer you again at the diagram I have linked to my January 2015 post, at http://fr.slideshare.net/adonissfera/tryptophan-and-madness/17-Cytokines_Come_in_Two_FlavorsProInflammatory   .  If you look carefully, you will see that the 2 kynurenine pathways tryptophan is shunt to happen in two different cell types: 

the KMO enzyme leading to quinolinic acid is active in the microglia and produces quinolinic acid, and causes emotional symptoms

 and the KAT enzyme is present in the astrocytes, leading to kynurenic acid production, and cause cognitive symptoms

so, 2 different cell types, having a different distribution in the brain.

both enzymes, KMO and KAT, have kynurenine as substrate ( = "input" substance).
Thanks Quantum, makes perfect seance but since I have depression and pure OCD I don't know if agitating NMDAr would be a good idea, we'll see.
Back in 2015, I search a lot to find natural KMO inhibitor, which would have been great to test my hypothesis on quinolinic acid causing my emotional symptoms , but did not find any ( KAT inhibitor were not interesting for me since I have no cognitive symptoms).  So, I then went back up in the chain and decided to work on blocking TDO and IDO, so there would be less tryptophan turned into kynurenine, so less substrate available for KMO and KAT, to turn TRP in QUIN or kynureninc acid, as explained above.
Nanna recently proposed NAD+ as a good IDO inhibitor, maybe this would be a better test then Glycine.

So about NMDAr agonists, there is a guy in FB who tried Glutamic acid and it didn't work for him, I wonder since Kyneurenic acid is a glyicne site antagonist, won't glutamate be effective on NMDAr in this case?

Quantum

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2019, 06:44:19 PM »
I saw that when I read about kynurenic acid and all the rest, but never found any reference stating that glutamate was helping cognitive functions, and many references states its excitotoxic properties, so I am not a fan of glutamate.   And, for years, I have stayed away of anything containing monosodium glutamate ( MSG), as it is not healthy for the brain.

However, you can find many reference stating that D-serine, which is a glycine derivative substance, does help cognitive functions:  https://examine.com/supplements/d-serine/   .   Phosphatidylserine is proven to help as well ( https://examine.com/supplements/phosphatidylserine/) , and lecithin is a very cheap source of it   ( there is lecithin in eggs....would that be what is helping Bulbo and others who are getting better with one or more eggs a day ? )


When it comes to IDO inhibitors, my favorite is rosmarinic acid ( which I take from rosemary essential oil, one or 2 drops in a glass of water) . .  A high quality, organic rosemary oil is rather cheap here, and will last a long time, as I use it 2 drops at a time.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 06:52:27 PM by Quantum »
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Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2019, 04:38:09 AM »
Thanks Quantum,
For now I've ordered Glycine powder, we'll see if it does the trick.

About lecithin, I tried sunflower lecithin but it did nothing as I recall.

I also tried rosemary extract way when I first joined this forum and saw your post about IDO/TDO inhibitors. It also did nothing.

I think taking more direct action supplements for me is better, because if they didn't work, I can scratch them off and move on to a new theory.

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2019, 12:16:10 PM »
Hi Quantum,
I wonder how effective are Cox-2 inhibitors on IDO suppression?  I personally had zero success with NSAID's so I'm looking forward for your response.
Thanks. 

Quantum

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2019, 10:22:11 PM »
Hi Quantum,
I wonder how effective are Cox-2 inhibitors on IDO suppression?  I personally had zero success with NSAID's so I'm looking forward for your response.
Thanks.


NSAIDS are not part of my pre-pack, but some initial versions of my pack had ibuprofen in them.  Because of stomach irritation effect, I have chosen not to include it as a "regular" member of my pre-pack.   I prefer using turmeric and rosemary essential oil as IDO inhibitor, in addition to TDO inhibitors too. 

And, I eat some pumpkin seeds every day, to sustain good tryptophan levels.   For tryptophan, I also have 5-HTP in my pre-pack, which is the direct precursor of serotonin and of course a source of tryptophan, and the green tea in my pre-pack help lower the peripheral metabolism of 5-htp, so more of it make it to the brain.   More Trp in the brain helps if much of it have been shunt to the kynurenine pathway  ( some new Trp is needed to resume serotonin synthesis and rebalance things, in my hypothesis ).
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Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2019, 05:33:48 AM »
Yes but I have tried them personally many times and they don't seem to work, that's problematic since they're supposed to down regulate IDO.

Quantum

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2019, 07:16:38 AM »
I I take only rosemary and curcumin, and a few others, it would not work,   I need my whole pre-pack to have a real protection.

Maybe you could try adding different things together, that you think may help you, if no single supplement seems to do the job.   I see POIS like a multi-headed beast, so it calls for action on different pathways at the same time.  That is how I reached some results.  It toolk a few months of adding and subtracting and testing, but it lead to something effective.
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Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2019, 10:47:09 AM »
Quantum I'm strictly talking about NSAID not the supplements.