Something to read

[JRD]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32712148/Pornography-and-Addiction-Brain-Chemistry-Research-and-Porn-by-Marnia-Robinson

[Willem]

This was referenced in the article, seems to track the POIS cycle pretty closely:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12659241

Abstract

The purpose of this study is to gain understanding of the relationship between ejaculation and serum testosterone level in men. The serum testosterone concentrations of 28 volunteers were investigated daily during abstinence periods after ejaculation for two phases. The authors found that the fluctuations of testosterone levels from the 2nd to 5th day of abstinence were minimal. On the 7th day of abstinence, however, a clear peak of serum testosterone appeared, reaching 145.7% of the baseline ( P < 0.01). No regular fluctuation was observed following continuous abstinence after the peak. Ejaculation is the precondition and beginning of the special periodic serum testosterone level variations, which would not occur without ejaculation. The results showed that ejaculation-caused variations were characterized by a peak on the 7th day of abstinence; and that the effective time of an ejaculation is 7 days minimum. These data are the first to document the phenomenon of the periodic change in serum testosterone level; the correlation between ejaculation and periodic change in the serum testosterone level, and the pattern and characteristics of the periodic change.

[JRD]

Quite interesting reading:


http://yourbrainonporn.com/rebooting

http://yourbrainonporn.com/rebooting-accounts

http://yourbrainonporn.com/what-are-the-symptoms-of-excessive-porn-use

etc. (try to search the site)

http://www.reuniting.info/the_wrong_masturbation_advice

http://www.reuniting.info/cowardly_lion_masturbating_too_much


Can you see the similarities in symptoms? This is not about porn, it is more likely about attitude, addiction and rewarding behaviour.

[Samir]

Interesting reading.  Good find!

[JRD]

How is it possible, that our fathers, grandfathers etc. probably have never experienced anything like POIS? How is it possible, that nobody has ever heard of POIS until recent years?

Once again the same question:

Is there anybody who reached an orgasm/ejaculation without any mental stimulation, i.e. just being thinking about non-explicit/non-pornographic things like nature and masturbate till orgasm (no women/men/etc. in your fantasies, just blank mind)? If so, what kind of symptoms did you experience then? There could be some connection between POIS and the intensity of specific brain centers' stimulation.

[Samir]

I've had O's in my dreams that didn't result in any type of physical ejaculation and didn't have the serious side-effects of pois.  I think the connection is physiological and the allergy theory seems to make sense.

[JRD]

But I would like to know the result of orgasm/ejaculation without being mentally self-stimulated.

I am a bit sceptical about the whole "allergy" concept - it doesn't make any sense to me. There were described semen allergy reactions on the internet, but their profile is way different from what we experience the most. On the other hand, we cannot ignore the similarities between POIS and the conditions like "sexual exhaustion" or porn-addiction (porn fantasy) withdrawal, which share very common characteristics like lethargy, social phobia, fatigue, irritability, anxiety, brain fog, pains etc.

I would say it may have a lot to do with dopamine depletion, overstimulation, neuroplasticity thing and so on, whose result can be an acute and post-acute withdrawal set of sympotms.

Post-acute-withdrawal syndrome (from Wikipedia):

The syndrome may be in part due to persisting physiological adaptions in the central nervous system manifested in the form of continuing but slowly reversible tolerance, disturbances in neurotransmitters and resultant hyperexcitability of neuronal pathways.[8][9][10][11] The symptoms of post acute withdrawal syndrome occur because the brain's ability to react to stress has been weakened by long-term substance use[citation needed]. Stressful situations arise in early recovery, and the symptoms of post acute withdrawal syndrome produce further distress. It is important to avoid or to deal with the triggers that make post acute withdrawal syndrome worse.

Symptoms can sometimes come and go with wave like reoccurrences or fluctuations in severity of symptoms. Common symptoms include impaired cognition, irritability, depressed mood, and anxiety; all of which may reach severe levels which can lead to relapse.[12][13]
 
The protracted withdrawal syndrome from benzodiazepines can produce symptoms identical to generalised anxiety disorder as well as panic disorder. Due to the sometimes prolonged nature and severity of benzodiazepine withdrawal, abrupt withdrawal is not advised.[14]
 
Common symptoms of post acute withdrawal syndrome are:[15][16][17][18]
 Psychosocial dysfunction
 Anhedonia[19]
 Depression
 Impaired interpersonal skills
 Obsessive-compulsive behaviour
 Feelings of guilt
 Autonomic disturbances
 Pessimistic thoughts
 Impaired concentration
 Lack of initiative
 Craving
 Inability to think clearly
 Memory problems
 Emotional overreactions or numbness
 Sleep disturbances
 Physical coordination problems
 Stress sensitivity
 Increased sensitivity to pain
 Panic disorder[14]
 Generalised anxiety disorder[14]
 
Symptoms occur intermittently, but are not always present. They are made worse by stress or other triggers and may arise at unexpected times and for no apparent reason. They may last for a short while or longer. Any of the following may trigger a temporary return or worsening of the symptoms of post acute withdrawal syndrome:
 Stressful and/or frustrating situations
 Multitasking
 Feelings of anxiety, fearfulness or anger
 Social Conflicts
 Unrealistic expectations of oneself
 Too much on your to-do list

[Samir]

But I would like to know the result of orgasm/ejaculation without being mentally self-stimulated.

I can see the similarities as well, but since an O requires some sort of excitement phase, there is already some chemical stuff going on anyways.  It's why I still felt my voice change after an O in my sleep, although it recovered very quickly compared to a complete O and E that results in pois.

[Daveman]

It is similar to sexual exhaustion, although without the "over-execise" normally seen with S/E.

Its possible that for some reasson, we require much less stimulation to depelete, what-ever. I'm sure we should consider some aspect of this in future research, although it ISN'T "sexual exhaustion"

[JRD]

You said "we require much less stimulation to deplete" - I think, a number of orgasms doesn't matter, but the way of experiencing them does. It is conditioned by our disposition and environmental (sexual perception) behaviour. Sexual hormones boost these (unhealthy) tendencies, intensify them, which leads to neurogenesis (i.e. neural ways and connections strenghtening), creating bad habbits (tolerance, addiction, rewarding behaviour) and debilitating hangover with depletion/imbalance within the wide range hormones and neurotransmitters.

The imbalance of neurotransmitters/hormones involved in this process creates specific type of POIS symptoms and it is necessary to take some time to recovery. But it is not enough to cure yourself, you have to "rewire" your tendencies, make them "normal". Just like in case of an addict, abstaining itself doesn't get rid of your problems.

[JRD]

Try to think in context:

- This condition is suspected to be some kind of rare disease and it probably is
- There has been no evidence about the existence of such consistent and severe condition until recently
- There are many people on the internet sharing experiences about their findings of orgasm -> problems
- Those people talk about quite similar effects and impacts on their mind and body
- Symptoms of semen allergy known longer before POIS was recognized also seem to be consistent and different from what we experience

Why hasn't this type of condition been widely recognized yet? It is debilitating, consistent and all the sufferers know it follows their ejaculation.

In my opinion, it is something like lifestyle/civilization/modern age (call it whatever you want) disease. It is consequence on unhealthy habbits, pressure of mainstream values (sexualization everywhere) in conjunction with specifically reward-oriented tendencies. Somebody else, with different reward-oriented tendencies living in the contemporary western-type world may experience overeating - obesity - diabetes. Some highly competent and busy manager can end up with serious somatic/psychological disease because of overstressing and his dispositions. Etc. Etc. Our bodies aren't designed to be overstimulated in such way.

I am 100 percent sure more and more cases of people detecting they are suffering from POIS will be appearing in the near future.

[Daveman]

You said "we require much less stimulation to deplete" - I think, a number of orgasms doesn't matter, but the way of experiencing them does. It is conditioned by our disposition and environmental (sexual perception) behaviour. Sexual hormones boost these (unhealthy) tendencies, intensify them, which leads to neurogenesis (i.e. neural ways and connections strenghtening), creating bad habbits (tolerance, addiction, rewarding behaviour) and debilitating hangover with depletion/imbalance within the wide range hormones and neurotransmitters.

The imbalance of neurotransmitters/hormones involved in this process creates specific type of POIS symptoms and it is necessary to take some time to recovery. But it is not enough to cure yourself, you have to "rewire" your tendencies, make them "normal". Just like in case of an addict, abstaining itself doesn't get rid of your problems.

I don't want to rule anything out, because this is a very complex problem, and to some extent what you say has bearing to widely varying extents in everybody.

But this is a block that's been traveled fairly well on NSF, basically that habits and lifestyles are the cause, and therefore the solution ot POIS.

At the very least, if such were the case, it would have to be a sensitivity/weakness in this rare group of people that make them more susceptable to habits/ lifestyle "excesses". The extent of the word "excess" varying from one to another.

In such a case, the solution is discovering why the heightened sensitivity, and reducing it rather than forcing the sufferer through a very difficult lifestyle of reducing his excess to that of a saint.

Perhaps it is not as recent as is thought either. There have been writings, mentioned on NSF that go very far back (what was it 1400, or earlier?), and specifically speak of lifestyle influences on POIS like illnesses.

Semen allergies have focused primarily on women. Completely different situation. Not to mention that the sperm in a woman does not enter her bloodstream through a breach in the blood barrier.

Up until now, when this has been discussed, the solution, re-organizing lifestyle, diet and habits to those of a saint IS NOT A VIALBLE SOLUTION. Such an endeavor is more difficult than a diet for a morbidly obese person, impractical and non-functional.

If we are to look at this though as one interacting factor, and dedicate more to reducing the sensitivity, where it can be proven to be such, rather than limiting the "excess" to way below normal, then we may have something interesting to discuss.

[Vincent M]

But this is a block that's been traveled fairly well on NSF, basically that habits and lifestyles are the cause, and therefore the solution ot POIS.

At the very least, if such were the case, it would have to be a sensitivity/weakness in this rare group of people that make them more susceptable to habits/ lifestyle "excesses". The extent of the word "excess" varying from one to another.

In such a case, the solution is discovering why the heightened sensitivity, and reducing it rather than forcing the sufferer through a very difficult lifestyle of reducing his excess to that of a saint.

I agree highly with this portion of what you said, Daveman. To some extent we can minimize our symptoms through abstinence and other lifestyle changes, however human willpower is a limited resource. General good diet and exercise is good for everyone, but it will not solve POIS for most of us. We need medicines, drugs, and surgical solutions. And for that we need time, trial and error, money, and scientific research.

[JRD]

OK, let's take a look at some withdrawal symptoms of porn (masturbation) addicts, taken from yourbrainonporn.com:

- headaches (getting worse today)
- really tense shoulders/neck
- fatigue
- brain fog
- desire to over-eat (although I have this a lot anyway)
- a bit irritable
- hard time concentrating
- sensitive to a lot of noise

---

I am experiencing, nausea, floaters in the eye, depression, lack of
motivation. I've also been experiencing candida, which may not be related at
all, so I'm really having trouble discerning what are truly withdrawal
symptoms.

---

- Extreme exhaustion
- Restless sleep
- Muscle aches, joint pains and fever (flu like) - day 15
- Mild disorientation
- Tension in the chest / tight breathing
- Anxiousness

---

7 days - Yesterday was... pretty rough. Today's difficult too, but so far, a whole lot
better. Not nearly so irritable, and my cognitive functioning is back- not a lot, but
a bit, enough. One of the most frustrating parts is feeling “dumb.” I’d hoped that
my ability to think creatively and to focus would improve, but it gets worse before
it gets better. I’d like to be more focused on other people but when I’m
experiencing a heightened number of thoughts and sensations that are distinctly
unpleasant it’s a lot more difficult to really care about what’s going on with other
people. My motivation right now is pretty low to do anything.

---

1. I get extremely lethargic.
2. Unable to concentrate.
3. I feel very thirsty and no amount of water quenches my thirst.
4. I have pain in body, which keeps moving from one place to another.
5. I feel mild sensations of vomiting.
6. My mouth has a bad taste.
7. I become extremely wise like a saint. I preach a lot. (As if I have
never heard of a thing called porn addiction)
8. I have extraordinary ideas in my mind as to why sex and porn are
wonderful. (But I keep them to myself)
9. I feel sleepy all the time.

---

In my case, it's been low motivation (I don't care), always tired, brain-fog,
difficulty concentrating, social anxiety, depression, etc... I knew something
wasn't right with me (and close friends & family knew too), but I just couldn't
put my finger on it (or didn't want to from an addict perspective).


These people have probably never heard of POIS and yet they are experiencing it - same trigger, alleviation at almost the same time, almost the same symptoms and so on. Do you really think, all of these people and others quoted in NSF discussion really suffer from an autoimmune reaction due to breach in the blood barrier and semen allergy, some mysterious hormonal deficiencies, testicle anomalies etc.?

I'm starting to doubt anything as an obscure, medically unrecognized somatic cause of POIS ever exist. On the other hand, this makes more sense to me (Wikipedia):

Physical dependence refers to a state resulting from chronic use of a drug that has produced tolerance and where negative physical symptoms of withdrawal result from abrupt discontinuation or dosage reduction. Physical dependence can develop from low-dose therapeutic use of certain medications such as benzodiazepines, opioids, antiepileptics and antidepressants, as well as misuse of recreational drugs such as alcohol, opioids and benzodiazepines. The higher the dose used, the greater the duration of use, and the earlier age use began are predictive of worsened physical dependence and thus more severe withdrawal sydromes. Acute withdrawal syndromes can last days, weeks or months, and protracted withdrawal syndrome, also known as "post-acute withdrawal syndrome" or "PAWS" - a low-grade continuation of some of the symptoms of acute withdrawal, typically in a remitting-relapsing pattern, that often results in relapse in to active addiction and prolonged disability of a degree to preclude the possibility of lawful employment - can last for months, years, or, in relatively common to extremely rare cases, depending on individual factors, indefinitely.

What if we all have been physically addicted to hormones secreted/playing role during orgasm/ejaculation/sexual stimulation (oxytocin, testosterone etc.), therefore higher tolerance and higher drain of them, therefore hangover experienced as hormone withdrawal and so on?

Adrenaline dependence as an example: http://www.newhopenow.org/notes/archive/adrenaline_dependence.html

[emi_b]

I want to say something to this discussion, and why this theory might not be the real cause.

And I'll try to argue by listing a part of my personal experience which don't make sense (to me) with this theory:

• Personally I am not and I wasn't porn addicted, and neither an occasional user. I haven't watched this kind of videos.
• I suspected some sort of immune reaction way before I knew about this illness or anything similar.
• I have symptoms which make sense if you take in discussion the immune theory. Just a few of them: unexplained sinusitis, frequent flu's, increased nasal irritation, sore throat.

How is it possible, that our fathers, grandfathers etc. probably have never experienced anything like POIS? How is it possible, that nobody has ever heard of POIS until recent years?

We really don't know if out ancestors, never had troubles with something like a genuine POIS, but because POIS could be an immune reaction, the fact that it might be more frequent now, could be due the factors that have led to increased number of allergies, or immune disorders, in the last decades: pollution, unhealthy style of life, etc.

[JRD]

"We really don't know if out ancestors, never had troubles with something like a genuine POIS" - If they experienced such a consistent condition, it would probably be documented, even in this narrow, rare extent of cases.
"the fact that it might be more frequent now, could be due the factors that have led to increased number of allergies, or immune disorders, in the last decades: pollution, unhealthy style of life, etc." - Yes, I agree, as well as the consequences of oversexualized age leading to abuse of pleasure related activities.

Hard to tell, where the truth is, but I still think, it has lot to do with addiction/dependence, or we should try to accept, there are more arousal/orgasm-induced conditions sharing similar attributes, but being different in their causes (porn-addiction, post-coital headaches, POIS, sexual exhaustion, etc.).

"It wasn't necessary to be addicted even to masturbation to trigger the entire set of symptoms, as it happened to me." - Many people on yourbrainonporn describe an outburst of symptoms after being aroused, after thinking about sexual content or experiencing non-coital/orgasmic sexual stimulation.

Autoimmune diseases are quite broad in their clinical profiles, almost every existing symptom could be attributed to them. Anyway, I am going to abstain (even from sexual fantasies) as long as possible and take a complex bloodwork, EEG, MRI etc., to find out more about my condition - maybe I suffer from other, undiagnosed and probably severe disease, maybe not.

[Daveman]

My tendancy is to think that it is the advent of internet and better access to information that makes it appear as a recent afliction. Anyone here will attest to how hard it is to find anything on this even in Google searches which find "anything".

Before computers, how many people are you going to be able to talk to. If you go to a doctor, it's so rare that he has another diagnosis, so POIS doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, it doesn't get documented or treated.

We have met many doctors, even those that are willing to help that resist "exposing" their diagnosos, usually give it a more "formal and recognizable name" to save face in front of their peers. Just ask Demo.

We don't know if POIS is new, but that does not by any means point to it as absolutely being a modern affliction.

Your conjectures may well have value inpointing to antagonizing factors, but NOT casual factors.

And as I say, if the system were so sensitive as to be put "so far out of synch" through normal lifestyle there is an external cause, extraordinary weakness in some part of the system, and the solution would be to cure that, NOT work at trying to be a saint.

We all deserve to live NORMAL LIVES.

[Vandemolen]

How is it possible, that our fathers, grandfathers etc. probably have never experienced anything like POIS? How is it possible, that nobody has ever heard of POIS until recent years?

[/quote]
In a French book from 1920 there was a discribed a disseas which looks like POIS. One forum member quoted from that book. It could be POIS. And the other thing is that there are more allergies now, because of climate and because of so much medicines.

[Vincent M]

What if we all have been physically addicted to hormones secreted/playing role during orgasm/ejaculation/sexual stimulation (oxytocin, testosterone etc.), therefore higher tolerance and higher drain of them, therefore hangover experienced as hormone withdrawal and so on?

Adrenaline dependence as an example: http://www.newhopenow.org/notes/archive/adrenaline_dependence.html

Even if this is the case (which it is probably not considering Animus's cure and the effects of male birth control like silodosin) then we would need to figure out why this addiction occurs in some people and not most people.

[JRD]

- "we would need to figure out why this addiction occurs in some people and not most people."

Well, try to imagine somebody, who has been drinking alcohol for the whole life, without any cravings or signs of dependence -> the vast majority of drinkers. Then, there is a small group of them vulnerable to this type of stimuli, being able to build up an addiction with all the phenomenons like tolerance, withdrawal syndrome and relapsing behaviour. It doesn't mean there is something physically wrong with them, they're just prone to certain type of behaviour with all of its consequences.

Sexual fantasies and porn-induced imagination appear to be enough for somebody to experience all of this. There is a whole bunch of other critical factors like an age of onset, frequency or intensity, motivation, chronicity, sex etc. I can see how powerful a flow of stimulation (which is free of charge and in an unlimited amount) you experience before/during orgasm is and yet it seems to be "just a standard" for you.

I would say, POIS is an extreme end of this type of addiction - many sufferers remember being in some type of prodromal phase earlier in their life before the real exacerbation of the disease, which can be interpreted as a mild form of dependence. Later, the disease got worse, eventually stronger in their aspects like a length of suffering or a new kind of symptoms. I suppose, many men don't even recognize a subtle difficulties or can't find out a connection with orgasm, until they start suffering from full-blown post orgasmic complications.

Hormonal dysbalance or atypical levels of hormones, premature ejactulation or ED, typical symptoms, typical length of a few days to few weeks necessary for alleviation, worsening of a condition even after thinking about sex or getting aroused, craving for sex and otherwise strong health - in my opinion, all of this is really definable for this interpretation.