Histadelia - High Brain Histamine

[Dante88]

Hi guys, this is one of my first post on these forums, but I have been reading and researching POIS for most of my adult life. I'm 25 and my symptoms began when I first started to masturbate (around age 12).

I am convinced that we are all suffering from under-methylation/high brain histmaine...also known as Histadelia. The high levels of brain histamine cause the other neurotransmitters in the brain to be reduced significantly...affecting countless other body processes i.e. hormones, temperature regulation, mood, cognitive abilities. For me, the POIS symptoms began after arousal...I don't even have to ejaculate to have the symptoms.

When we become aroused the body releases large quantities of histamine into the bloodstream and I would assume in the brain. I have noticed that for me, when I become aroused, my skin turns red, I become very hot, my saliva congeals, my hands and feet become cold, and I have a hard time thinking clearly.

I started a Histadelia regimen of Methionine, Calcium/Magnsium, MSM, Betaine HCL, Copper & Vitamin B6. I have been on it since May and have not noticed too much of an improvement.

I suffer from fairly severe premature ejaculation and am plagued by wetdreams that occur every couple of weeks...so I can't abstain for any real period of time. I notice that when I do abstain, I feel somewhat better and I also look better physically.

The Histadelia regimen has honestly not made too much of a difference. I am still on it and will stay on it indefinitely because I think that it might take a fairly long time to start working.

I will also be starting Betahistine relatively soon. Betahistine is an H3 receptor antagonist. H3 receptors are histamine receptors in the brain, and I believe that by blocking or antagonizing these, I could possibly get the Histadelia under control. Has anyone had experience with H3 antagonists? I know that most of them are still in the experimental stages, but I'm holding out hope that Betahistine will work.

My allergist also prescribed me Androderm because my Free Testosterone levels are pathetically low. I am going to hold off on taking that until I see if the Betahistine works.

The allergist also suggested desensitization using histamine. Basically he will inject me with a small amount of histamine and then gradually over time that amount will increase. He said that the body will build up a tolerance to it if it is injected in this manner.

[Dante88]

I know that was a long post. Sorry! The main thing I wanted to discuss was the H3 receptor antagonists...what do you guys think? Could these work?

[Clycos]

Very very interesting, keep us posted on your results with Betahistine.

[Ccconfucius]

This was kurtosis main topic for a while and he to interested in h3 antagonist. You should pm him, he will e able to go deeper about it.

My only problem with high histamie theory: I dont get most of the symptoms describe for it.
According to this guy http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2011/08/17/histadelia-a-doctor-writes/
histadelia is not a medically recognized problem.
Is there a way to test for high histamine in blood to even see if it is elevated.

[LAPOISSE]

Yeah, We have discussed a lot about it ; I have even tried a no histamine regimen for 2 weeks without any succes ;

My guess is POIS is general imbalance that involve more that one neurotransmitor/hormone ; It has to be systematic.

My free testosterone has always been very low also ; I had 3 docs point of view about that and basicly they said it's not a problem ;

Nevertheless, it could be intereting to know your result histamine dessens and betahistine

[Dante88]

This was kurtosis main topic for a while and he to interested in h3 antagonist. You should pm him, he will e able to go deeper about it.

My only problem with high histamie theory: I dont get most of the symptoms describe for it.
According to this guy http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2011/08/17/histadelia-a-doctor-writes/
histadelia is not a medically recognized problem.
Is there a way to test for high histamine in blood to even see if it is elevated.

Histadelia is not recognized by "mainstream medicine", but that doesn't mean it's not real! Mainstream medicine labels many things as normal, when they aren't. I have been to see countless doctors and when I tell them my symptoms, they tell me I have nothing wrong phsyically and to consider seeing a therapist/psychiatrist.

My free testosterone level is 7.4 pg/mL (reference range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL) and my total testosterone is 430 ng/dL (reference range is 348-1197 ng/dL). These same doctors told me that since my total testosterone is normal, I don't have anything wrong, and to just learn to live with my symptoms. Bullshit!

You can have your blood histamine levels checked. I had a test performed in early August and my level was 85 ng/mL (reference range is 12-127 ng/mL). This is considered "normal", but according to the information at the link below, blood levels over 70 ng/mL are considered indicative of histadelia.

http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2002/pdf/2002-v17n01-p017.pdf

My Understanding of the H3 receptors is that they inhibit the release of neurotransmitters like dopamine and serotonin. I have also read that they inhibit the release of histamine. My theory is that they balance the release of histamine, i.e. once histamine in the brain gets too high it triggers the H3 receptors to inhibit the release histamine, serotonin, dopamine, gaba, and all of the other neurotransmitters. Basically it is a feedback loop. People that have histadelia are predisposed to have elevated levels of histamine in the brain, which in turn, causes the H3 receptors to downregulate the release of neurotransmitters. When we have orgasms, we use up most of the already low neurotransmitters and end up with the POIS symptoms. For me, the symptoms occur upon arousal, but are made 10x worse by orgasm.

I tried to PM Kurtosis. It says he hasn't been online since March 2013. I sent the message anyway, but doubt I will hear back.

[Dante88]

Yeah, We have discussed a lot about it ; I have even tried a no histamine regimen for 2 weeks without any succes ;

My guess is POIS is general imbalance that involve more that one neurotransmitor/hormone ; It has to be systematic.

My free testosterone has always been very low also ; I had 3 docs point of view about that and basicly they said it's not a problem ;

Nevertheless, it could be intereting to know your result histamine dessens and betahistine

Lapoisse,

What does your no histamine regimen consist of? Are you just eliminating foods from your diet that are high in histamine? Or are you taking supplements to lower histamine?

I think that you are right about more than one hormone/neurotransmitter being involved. From what I have read, excessive brain histamine lowers neurotransmitters like dopamine, serotonin & gaba in the brain. These neurotransmitters have a HUGE effect on other bodily functions (i.e. hormones, emotions...etc).  

I received the betahistine today and started off with a dosage of 200mg.  

6:00 p.m. No positive benefits yet, I just feel a little dizzy. I have read that it can take a couple of weeks for it to start working.

8:00 p.m. I don't know if it is a placebo effect, or if this stuff is actually working, but my mood feels lifted...I'm not in the deep dark depression I was earlier today. I had an orgasm last night and was feeling awful for most of the day.

[Dante88]

I stumbled upon this post from Kurtosis a while back...it seems like he was in the same line of thinking as I am at the moment. Does anyone know where he is? Is this forum even active any more? Seems pretty dead to me.

Quote from: kurtosis on November 10, 2012, 10:23:18 PM

Here's a short theory of POIS.

1) A genetic defect in a methylation gene causes an inefficient homocysteine to methionine cycle.
2) Depending on the level of inefficiency, the sufferer will be fine until they encounter puberty or become older and suffer from some illness which taxes the immune system.
3) Up until the point of the first POIS O the sufferer may feel a bit tired or less active than usual but the first POIS O will come as a shock as it's the first time the body has to dispose of a substantial amount of histamine that it's impaired methylation simply cannot handle.
4) Once POIS starts, the sufferer has high levels of histamine that are not being effectively deactivated (increasing their libido and frequency of ejaculation) and impairments in the production of other neurotransmitters (making them slow down and feel depressed).
5) the High-histamine state requires the body to produce more cortisol to control inflammation. The sufferer has allergies etc. and wonders what the problem is but over time they're body becomes weaker.
6) The cortisol produced in (5) steals the raw ingredients for other hormones (including testosterone), producing symptoms of hypogonadism despite no obvious testicular malfunction or adrenal tumour. It's possible that persistent adrenal fatigue may increase the natural wear + tear on the cells of the pituitary gland which may lead to tumours but that's a side issue.
7) The body also produces adrenaline to cope with high levels of cortisol. Again, this contributes to mental and physical burnout. The POIS sufferer now has chronic adrenal fatigue and may feel "wiped out", being unable to deal with even normal stresses in every day life.
Both the reduced methylation and cortisol steal in the previous points, reduces the production of neurotransmitters. The brain also has too high a histamine load and a negative feedback loop is created such that the brain runs in a suboptimal state with too high levels of histamine and too low levels of serotonin. This leads to persistent feelings of anxiety, even when the sufferer believes they are not in POIS. Indeed, over time it becomes more difficult for the POIS sufferer to figure out when they are in in POIS or out of it. The state of weakness, fatigue and confusion becomes more persistent.
9 ) The POIS sufferer never recovers their former state of wellbeing with adequate histamine clearance and adequate methylation of neurotransmitters UNLESS they manage to kick start their methylation cycle.

Thanks to cheap DNA testing we can actually find out if we have polymorphisms (basically mutations) of our methylation genes. My guess is that we all have methylation issues. They may not be the same issue but they're similar enough to produce a major problem when we process histamine. The inability to clear histamine quickly and the high levels we experience daily would lead to the symptoms of POIS but they would be a result of other issues.


Although I have no knowledges to understand all that, it seems very logical.

However, I think a lot of sufferer here did'nt experienced allergie problems ; If we all have high level of histamine, everybody should be allergic with physical signs ; Some other could have allergies AND POIS wich are not obligatory related ; There is some people here are allergic to gluten and the symptoms are clearly similar to POIS especialy for the cognitive one ; So , what symtoms are caused by the allergie/food intolerence itself ?Or by POIS? Is it the same thing ?(then why about 40% of POIS sufferer declare not being allergic person according to the poll)
Moreover it's very difficult to find any serious paper wich make a relation between high histamine and the cognitive probleme we have.

I still think it's one the best theory we have about POIS, but I'm just concerned about the fact that it doesn't apply for everybody.

[Daveman]

Hi Dante88,

Yes it's fairly quiet here. We're waiting for the "verdict" to come in on the final selection for the research program. It's pretty boring.

The people want drama I guess. There's plenty of that on the other forums. Competing "theories". Each one beleiving that theirs is "the One".

There are a couple fo things in vogue right now, so everybody is wherever giving those a go.

I don't know, I've been in this long enough to know that it's just going around in circles.

It wouldn't surprise me though that something like what Kurtosis suggests is close. He studies hard, and make very good attempts at puting the bits together, and especially when we / he isn't a medical expert, you have to hand it to him for his effort (and probable proximity to the cause/problem).

But there are so many ifs, and buts, and the problem is extrememly complex.

What he says, basically, is that we can't properly manage the histamine surge during /after O. And he goes to great length to try to explain why. In this case a potential gene defect? I know they were doing ad-hoc gene testing, not sure who was interpreting the results.... not for the faint of heart. And I'm not even sure what came of all of that.

Please don't thinkk I'm mocking. I admire the effort Kurtosis put in and may well still be puting in. I've seen him from time to time at NSF.

But there are at least two main issues:

1) A layperson or group of lay people AREN'T going to find the answer!! Contribute they may. There are things being done that  no professional investigator would do, so at least they may be able to benefit from some of the results (without being involved in unethical or dangerous methodologies)
2) IF a soultion was found, having come from a lay-group, it will be of little validity in the medical world, so opening access for sufferers all over the world would be difficult.

Real medical research takes time to validate the procedure, cross check it, check against control groups and then find a safe and sutiable solution. This is the resaon the medical community accepts it. They know it is real, they know it is safe. But the best part is, that you can go to a doctor in Timbuctoo and say, "Gee Doc, when I cum, I feel like crap afterwards for a week". And he'll say "Ahhh, you have POIS. Take two of these and call me in the morning!".

Wouldn't you like to see that? Go to a real doctor and explain your problem without him looing at you like you should be in a looney bin?"

[Dante88]

The genetic defect occurs in the MTHFR gene. There are saliva mail-in kits that are around $100 and can determine whether or not you have this defect. What Kurtosis was describing is Histadelia. It is recognized as an illness in orthomolecular medicine. It is all about methylation. Our bodies can't get rid of histamine fast enough because of our methylation issues...so we end up with an abundance of it. I am convinced I have this and my lab results back this up.

Interestingly enough...I have read about forum members having success with Niacin or vitamin B3 taken before orgasm. Megadoses of vitamin B3 are thought to be beneficial for Histadelia. Below is a link to a medical paper on the subject.

http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2002/pdf/2002-v17n01-p017.pdf

I'm glad that we are trying to get actual recognized medical research performed on the subject, but in the mean time, I'm going to try and find something that works for me and I think Histadelia is a very real illness and it can be treated.

[Daveman]

Yes, unfortunately, the professional research path does take a little while, and we definiately need to find "our own" peace in the meantime.

Niacin works very well for me. The SLVARS guys say that it's becasue it helps break the vaso-constriction cycle, others, like Kurtosis say that it's because it imporoves the methylation process.... I don't know. I'm happy it works, and I'm happy the experts are looking into why in the meantime.

I really wish we had the answer for everyone!!

Treating histedelia, of course may help the symptoms, and then again may not, as we have so unfortunately seen. Some respond well to naicin others don't, others to b-complex etc. I respond well to b3, but the b-complex regime makes my POIS worse.

The reason for this is that histedelia ISN'T the root cause, but a by-product of some other misalignment. If we look at the root cause as being a motor, and the histedelia as being the wheel, maybe putting grease in the clutch mechanism will help reduce the action of the wheel, but the motor is still running.Or for others, perhaps what they need to do is take the grease out of the brake mechanism, so the brake works better. But what we really need to do is take the foot off the throttle. That would work for everybody.

How have any of the proposed treatments ofr histadelia helped you? Are you lucky enough that they help some? Do you work on the diet angle?

[Dante88]

The POIS symptoms are very similar to those of "sexual exhaustion", i.e. low neurotransmitters and fatigued adrenals. People with Histadelia are possibly more prone to encountering POIS because of their already compromised levels of neurotransmitters and adrenal issues. It may be the case that abstinence for a long period of time can allow the neurotransmitter levels to replenish and the adrenals to heal. Unfortunately I am not able to abstain for any real amount of time because of my nocturnal emissions. The Nocturnal emissions are brought on by premature ejaculation, which is a symptom of low levels of serotonin and in turn a symptom of histadelia. It is a vicious cycle that I find myself in. The longest I have been able to abstain over the course of 15 years is 75 days. I felt very much improved. I am curious how long it would take for me to heal completely if I was able to be ejaculation free indefinitely.

I have seen some improvement in my premature ejaculation and overall mood. My understanding is that it may take up to a year of supplementation to see any real improvement...and you must stay on some form of methylation aid for the rest of your life, unless you want the symptoms to return. I have been taking the following for the past 5 months:

L-methionine, 3-4 grams
Tryptophan, 1-3 grams
Calcium Salts, 2g (1g in the morning and 1g at night)
Magnesium, 1g
Vitamin B6, 100-200 mg
Vitamin C (Ester C), 2-4 grams
Vitamin B-12 liquid, 1 sub lingual spray

I also recently added in the following:
No Flush Niacin (Niaplex), 6-9g
Manganese, 50-100 mg

Progress is slow, but I see definite improvement. It is interesting to note that Histadelics are supposed to avoid Folic Acid. A couple of weeks ago I started making juicing drinks, using kale, cucumber, broccoli, tomatoes, spinach, and some other greens. It turns out green vegetables are very high in folate. My symptoms came back 10 fold, I was extremely horny, I couldn't think about anything other than pornography/masturbation. I felt hot and restless and incredibly anxious...not quite as bad as I am after orgasm...but there was something going on there and it falls in line with Histadelia. Once I stopped the juicing drinks, the symptoms ceased.

I have a fair complexion and blush easily...apparently Histadelia is more common in the descendants of northern Europeans. I am curious how many of the men on this forum also blush easily, sneeze in sunlight, are of fair complexion, and have a history of flushing/blushing upon sexual arousal?

I have pretty much given up on the H3 Antagonist Betahistine, I don't see any real improvement beyond what I usually notice from abstinence. It has been almost 2 weeks since  I started it.

[Dante88]

The niacin seemed to exacerbate my symptoms...restlessness, suicidal depression, brain fog, PE. I was megadosing with Niacin and Vitamin C because I read it was helpful for some people. I probably just need to stick with small doses.

I have done some more research on the methylation process. It seems that people with Histadelia have a genetic defect in their MTHFR gene.

1. This mutation inhibits the body's ability to methylate, or convert folic acid into Methylfolate. Methylfolate is the active and usable form of folic acid, and if the body is not getting enough of this usable folate at the cell level, a dangerous cycle begins and leads to deficiencies and a multitude of health issues.

2. Our ability to detoxify is extremely hindered. Think of a revolving door. On a daily basis, toxins are coming in, and in a normal healthy individual, toxins are also coming out. But when you have this MTHFR mutation, toxins get trapped, and will continue to build up over the years.

Histadelia is one of the health issues involved in this. Methylfolate is involved in the metabolism of histamine...if your body can't make methylfolate, histamine levels have nowhere to go but up.

For more info on supplementation, take a look at the link below.

http://mthfr.net/mthfr-c677t-mutation-basic-protocol/2012/02/24/

Here is another link to the consequence of the MTHFR defect, "Methyl Trapping"

http://mthfr.net/forums/topic/methyl-trapping-info-anyone/

I'm going to go on a special diet - no gluten, no dairy, and limited protein...about 50 grams per day. I'm also going to start supplementing with methylfolate, methyl B12, Vitamin E, Tumeric, and Probiotics as the basic protocol link above suggests. I will update you guys if I make any progress.

Also, I ordered a DNA test kit (saliva) from https://www.23andme.com/
It will let me know for sure if I have a MTHFR mutation and which variation of the MTHFR gene I have.

[Daveman]

The niacin seemed to exacerbate my symptoms...restlessness, suicidal depression, brain fog, PE. I was megadosing with Niacin and Vitamin C because I read it was helpful for some people. I probably just need to stick with small doses.

I have done some more research on the methylation process. It seems that people with Histadelia have a genetic defect in their MTHFR gene.

1. This mutation inhibits the body's ability to methylate, or convert folic acid into Methylfolate. Methylfolate is the active and usable form of folic acid, and if the body is not getting enough of this usable folate at the cell level, a dangerous cycle begins and leads to deficiencies and a multitude of health issues.

2. Our ability to detoxify is extremely hindered. Think of a revolving door. On a daily basis, toxins are coming in, and in a normal healthy individual, toxins are also coming out. But when you have this MTHFR mutation, toxins get trapped, and will continue to build up over the years.

Histadelia is one of the health issues involved in this. Methylfolate is involved in the metabolism of histamine...if your body can't make methylfolate, histamine levels have nowhere to go but up.

For more info on supplementation, take a look at the link below.

http://mthfr.net/mthfr-c677t-mutation-basic-protocol/2012/02/24/

Here is another link to the consequence of the MTHFR defect, "Methyl Trapping"

http://mthfr.net/forums/topic/methyl-trapping-info-anyone/

I'm going to go on a special diet - no gluten, no dairy, and limited protein...about 50 grams per day. I'm also going to start supplementing with methylfolate, methyl B12, Vitamin E, Tumeric, and Probiotics as the basic protocol link above suggests. I will update you guys if I make any progress.

Also, I ordered a DNA test kit (saliva) from https://www.23andme.com/
It will let me know for sure if I have a MTHFR mutation and which variation of the MTHFR gene I have.

As far as niacin, around 100mg should do it, on an empty stomach, one hour before orgasm.

Regular high doses don't do much other than overwork the liver. The niacin effect (for POIS) only works while the niacin is present in the blood, AFTER the flush during orgasm. The reset is of no use and just beats up the system.

As far as www.23and me.com, good luck. The results mean NOTHING without the analysis of a highly trained geneticist. Defects in the gene can cause defects ranging from Anecephaly, spina bifida and even heart disease, stroke, and high blood pressure.

As far as I am concerned those type of sites are created to exploit! They´re exactly what the people think they want.

Not sure why we insist on playing doctor.

Most of the best remedies we have found, have come from trial and error. We can't do more than that, we just can't. We don't know how to do controlled tests, nor do we know how to screen potential causes. Sure we can elequently express what we think, and it all might sound too good to be true..... probably is.

Try things that have worked for others, and wait for the pros to do their job.

[Dante88]

Yes, all of those defect symptoms are brought on by the impaired methylation. The mutation of the MTHFR gene is recognized by mainstream medicine...it's not a theory that I made up or that someone trying to take advantage made up. I have done research looking for the typical treatment for the MTHFR mutation, and the supplements suggested, fall in line with the common treatment. The website I linked to seemed to explain things a little better as far as the supplements, so that is why I linked it. As far as the 23andme test...it will tell me if I have the defect and to what severity...that is all I really need to know. Having the defect tells you for sure that your methylation is impaired...that is the cause of the symptoms you listed.

Trial and error is exactly what I'm doing. If this makes a difference then I will know it, if not I will move on to something else. The Betahistine didn't work - I moved on. The megadose Niacin and Vitamin C didn't work - I moved on.

I was excited when I found this information yesterday and wanted to share it with the forum. If formal research finds a treatment that works for this, then I will be the first to try it...but in the meantime I'm not going to sit around twiddling my thumbs.

[Daveman]

That's fine, it kills time meantime.

A success without the data is really a failure,
A failure with the data is actually a success.

That's the problem with all of this ameture investigation we do. As you said, the mega-dose of niacin didn't work, so you moved on, thinking that  trying a mega-dose was the right thing to do. So you probably missed an opportunbity because the approach was very incomplete.

You have to know why you are doing something and how you are going to do it, you have to know what to expect, and what the results mean. "That it didn't work" doesn't tell you anything.

Some took progesterone, but it didn't work, some took testosterone, but it didn't work. But they didn't even think that it may be very important to have the right dose or proper administration, and to take it under certain circumstances.

If you fail, but have the correct data, data that actually tells you something, then the failure is valuable.

I just got sick and tired of it. "Up to here" as they say. Trying and trying and trying, and nothing seeming to work, and zero answers from anything. I asked myself, WTF are we doing?

Like shooting at a target with your eyes closed.

I know you didn't invent any of what you said, but nobody among us can really pretend to understand it. There are some that may be on to something, but the formula is STILL in adjustment.

I will be surprised if a malformed gene has anything to do with it. But who knows?

[VSmasher]

I believe this theory is right. For me anyway.

Things I use to lower my Histamine and almost completely wipe out my POIS:

Quercetin
Forskolin
Astragalus
DAO enzyme
Probiotics; B. Infantis, L plantarum, B. Longum, L. Rhamnosus
Theanine
Bromelain
Barberry fruit extract
Chinese skullcap

These things ether lower Histamine release from mast cells or the degrade Histamine in the gut. I load up on them before O and after O with almost no POIS. I know Histamine is definitely my problem because I get the exact POIS symptoms after I eat high Histamine foods too, unless I take these supplements. The DAO enzyme and the Histamine degraded probiotics I use before high Histamine foods to degrade Histamine. Good luck all

[Marcusq]

Interesting link about histadelia, symptons and treatments:

http://www.joanmathewslarson.com/HRC_2006/Depression_06/D_roller_coaster.htm

[Limejuice]

Simple POIS relief in reduction of brain histamine from a cold shower (or ice bucket challenge)?

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/172/3987/1037

[FloppyBanana]

I believe this theory is right. For me anyway.

Things I use to lower my Histamine and almost completely wipe out my POIS:

Quercetin
Forskolin
Astragalus
DAO enzyme
Probiotics; B. Infantis, L plantarum, B. Longum, L. Rhamnosus
Theanine
Bromelain
Barberry fruit extract
Chinese skullcap

These things ether lower Histamine release from mast cells or the degrade Histamine in the gut. I load up on them before O and after O with almost no POIS. I know Histamine is definitely my problem because I get the exact POIS symptoms after I eat high Histamine foods too, unless I take these supplements. The DAO enzyme and the Histamine degraded probiotics I use before high Histamine foods to degrade Histamine. Good luck all

Hey VagSmasher,

How long have you been taking DAO and how do you take it? A big dose a few hours before the big O? then continue taking it for a few days after?

Also is your list in order what you think is the most effective.

Thanks - FB