POISCENTER
General Category => POIS Research => Topic started by: Quantum on January 23, 2016, 03:24:43 PM
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This thread is about the Polyvagal Theory.
Considering that part of the current research on POIS is related to the Polyvagal Theory, I thought it would be important to start a thread about it. There is already a thread about Heart Rate Variability ( HRV), which is used as a measure related to the Polyvagal Theory and the vagus nerve, but I think it will be important, in order to have a better understanding of the results of the study when they will be out, to have at least a basic understanding of the Polyvagal Theory. Dr Komisaruk and his team uses this theory as a background for at least a part of the study, and knowing the concepts they use and are referring to will be of great help to fully grasp what they have found about POIS.
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Thanks, Quantum, for starting the thread.
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(http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a446/certainly1232000/9C1169C1-8D96-4F96-8E33-7B9CCF1B5603_zpsntsyyn3a.jpg)
Book recommended by Dr Komisaruk/Rutgers
Dr Stephen W. Porges ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Porges#Polyvagal_Theory ) is the one who has proposed the Polyvagal theory, in 1995, and has helped to develop it since.
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YouTube interview with Stephen Porges on Polyvagal Theory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tz146HQotY&sns=em
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Hi Demo and everyone,
Also, a good summary of the Polyvagal Theory can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvagal_Theory
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I have found a very interesting interview with Dr Stephen W. Porges on the Polyvagal Theory. It is in lay terms, clear and easy to understand, and is very effective at explaining the 3 different neurological responses that this theory describes, and most importantly, the order in which they manifest, and what it means in daily life. Those 3 responses alternate in a particular order, and have specific physiological manifestations. It is an evolve view of the current two-modes view of the autonomic system ( parasympathetic vs sympathetic), has the Polyvagal theory introduce a third state.
See the interview transcript, with great graphics, at: http://www.sott.net/article/228410-How-your-nervous-system-sabotages-your-ability-to-relate
Here is one of the good summary of the Polyvagal Theory, in one, very well done graphic:
(http://www.naturalworldhealing.com/images/polyvagal_graphic.jpg)
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cross-posted from : Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
For anyone interested, I have found a very interesting interview about the Polyvagal Theory, in lay terms, with the founder of this theory, at http://www.sott.net/article/228410-How-your-nervous-system-sabotages-your-ability-to-relate .
Very interesting, Quantum.
Thanks Demo,
This interview has helped me a great deal in grasping what the Polyvagal theory implies.
I even already ponder a bit about how POIS relates to the Polyvagal Theory. Knowing that the 3 different reactions are linear, you can go from "smart" vagus to sympathetic response, and then form sympathetic response, which is in the middle, you can go back to "smart' vagus", or to the other side, the "old" vagus, frozen state ( it seems not possible to go directly from smart vagus to old vagus, and the opposite, according to Polyvagal Theory - to go from one to the other, you have to pass through at least a brief phase of the sympathetic response ). I feel that POIS could be a bad "exit" from the sympathetic state induced at the time of release ( fast heart beat, fast breathing, high state of arousal, ...). Instead of going back to the "smart" vagus response, it looks like we "fall" in the opposite way, in the "old" vagus state, where HRV is lowered, muscular strengh is lowered, cognitive functions are lowered , and the like. This state is the defense mechanism linked to freeze and to feign death, as a survival mechanism. For whatever reason, we are in a "smart" vagus state before E, get through a sympathetic phase just before and during release, and instead of going back to the "smart" vagus state, we are commuted to the other direction, to the "old" vagus state, where many of our biological functions effectively shut down, and we, for sure, feel "frozen" and disconnect, not to say "almost dead".
I was thinking about those sharing that, sometime, when in POIS, they get out of it after a second O... maybe the second time, they have exited the sympathetic response in the right direction. Of course, the opposite is also possible, and is more frequent: after a second release, the POIS sufferer fall deeper still in the wrong, "old" vagus response, and it will be longer still to get out of it.
I was also thinking about my bad reaction the day after sport. If I play badminton or tennis in the evening, enough for my heart to beat a lot, and to sweat, then, the day after, I feel more tired that I should, considering I do this 2 times a week for at least 4 years. This state is not as lethargic as POIS is, but it is still not "normal". In the light of the Polyvagal theory, it would mean that sexual arousal is not the only sympathetic state I have difficulty getting out of. There could be also a problem for me to get out of the high sympathetic state induce by sport, and that I partly induce the "old" vagus response in these circumstances as well. I think I have heard of other POIS sufferers who also have a hard time to recover from sport.
What do you think?
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Here is one of the good summary of the Polyvagal Theory, in one, very well done graphic:
(http://www.naturalworldhealing.com/images/polyvagal_graphic.jpg)
Excellent, Quantum! I also found this one...
(http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a446/certainly1232000/FE4E804D-DE42-47A1-9829-24EE96E9DEEC_zps2f4jjmpo.jpg)
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I was also thinking about my bad reaction the day after sport...
This was a terrible problem for me, but the bad reaction always occurred on the *same day* -- with cardiovascular workout, e.g., running 20 minutes at 'optimal' heart rate. The reaction was agonizing. For many hours. And no one could understand it: "You should feel *better* after excercise!"
Some people have even reacted to my complaints with snickers. But Google "exercise-induced depression" and many credible results are found.
I have always suspected an exercise correlation with my POIS. And I think the POIS-related reactions also held true with my past abnormal hangovers (way too excessive for the small amount of alcohol consumed - and lasting for 3-4 days...like POIS!)
My POIS treatment has alleviated much of this problem. Further evidence to me that there is a similar abnormal mechanism at work with POIS, exercise, and hangovers, in my own personal experience.
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A very useful article that could explain the Vagus theory of POIS that is currently being researched at Rutgers.
http://drsircus.com/medicine/vagus-nerve-inflammation-heart-rate-variability/
The article touches upon how if the vagus nerve is not stimulated enough it leads to inflammation and that Acetylcholine helps control the inflammation. This explains Outsider and Floppybanana s treatment success with increasing Acetylcholine, as it helps control the inflammation.
Ejaculation is inflammatory (There are a few articles propsosing this, I have posted one of those articles below) but vagus nerve manages the inflammation by secreting the required Acetylcholine.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24421089_Frequent_ejaculation_associated_free_radical_and_lactic_acid_accumulation_cause_noninfectious_inflammation_and_muscle_dysfunction_A_potential_mechanism_for_symptoms_in_Chronic_ProstatitisChronic_Pelvi
When the vagus nerve is not able to stimulate properly the inflammation is not reduced for a long time which is the POIS period for us. As you may all know systemic inflammation to the joints and bones is what causes pain throughout the body. Then the inflammation to brain and parts of eyes is what causes blurred vision, headaches, cognition issues, etc? An inflamed prostate also causes all types of issues including premature ejaculation.
Vagus nerve is also required for increasing testosterone in the body. The body?s free testosterone level naturally drops following ejaculation and again a normal functioning vagus nerve should get it back to normal levels soon, but happens slowly in our case.
So low testosterone and systemic inflammation of the body are the main reasons why we get the POIS symptoms IMO. This explains why Testosterone replacement therapy has worked for a few and anti-inflammatory stuff like Nicain, anti-histamines, fenugreek, acetylcholine stimulators work for some. IMO there will be 100% permanent cure only if the vagus nerve heals and starts functioning as it would in a non-POIS person.
These are all strictly my theories, please let me know your thoughts and challenge me if you disagree with something so that I can research a bit more.
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Thank you guys, this theory is the most accurate one we have till now, i only get some relief with antihistaminics. Anyone have tried Solgar Choline supplements?
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"Introduction To The Vagus Nerve"
From http://selfhacked.com/2015/07/30/28-ways-to-stimulate-your-vagus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/#Introduction_to_The_Vagus_Nerve
"In people with fatigue, food sensitivities, anxiety, gut problems, brain fog and depersonalization, the vagus nerve is almost always at play. These people have lower vagal tone, which means a lower ability of the vagus nerve to activate or perform its functions.
The only question is what aspect of the vagus nerve is malfunctioning and how much the vagus nerve is a problem vs. other aspects of your biology.
The vagus nerve is part of the parasympathetic nervous system, referred to as the rest and digest system. It’s not the only nerve in the parasympathetic system, but it’s by far the most important one because it has the most far reaching effects.
The word vagus means “wanderer,” because it wanders all over the body to various important organs.
The vagus nerve connects to the brain, gut (intestines, stomach), heart, liver, pancreas, gallbladder, kidney, ureter, spleen, lungs, fertility organs (females), neck (including pharynx, larynx, esophagus), ears and tongue."
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(http://www.bible.ca/psychiatry/psychiatry-mental-illness-depression-brain-electro-shock-treatments-vagus-nerve-stimulation-VNS-cyberonics-9volt-battery-tongue.gif)
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This is why we needed Rutgers IRB approval! :)
Yes. The above "VNS shock photo" is a joke.
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A very useful article that could explain the Vagus theory of POIS that is currently being researched at Rutgers.
http://drsircus.com/medicine/vagus-nerve-inflammation-heart-rate-variability/
The article touches upon how if the vagus nerve is not stimulated enough it leads to inflammation and that Acetylcholine helps control the inflammation. This explains Outsider and Floppybanana s treatment success with increasing Acetylcholine, as it helps control the inflammation.
Ejaculation is inflammatory (There are a few articles propsosing this, I have posted one of those articles below) but vagus nerve manages the inflammation by secreting the required Acetylcholine.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24421089_Frequent_ejaculation_associated_free_radical_and_lactic_acid_accumulation_cause_noninfectious_inflammation_and_muscle_dysfunction_A_potential_mechanism_for_symptoms_in_Chronic_ProstatitisChronic_Pelvi
When the vagus nerve is not able to stimulate properly the inflammation is not reduced for a long time which is the POIS period for us. As you may all know systemic inflammation to the joints and bones is what causes pain throughout the body. Then the inflammation to brain and parts of eyes is what causes blurred vision, headaches, cognition issues, etc? An inflamed prostate also causes all types of issues including premature ejaculation.
Vagus nerve is also required for increasing testosterone in the body. The body?s free testosterone level naturally drops following ejaculation and again a normal functioning vagus nerve should get it back to normal levels soon, but happens slowly in our case.
So low testosterone and systemic inflammation of the body are the main reasons why we get the POIS symptoms IMO. This explains why Testosterone replacement therapy has worked for a few and anti-inflammatory stuff like Nicain, anti-histamines, fenugreek, acetylcholine stimulators work for some. IMO there will be 100% permanent cure only if the vagus nerve heals and starts functioning as it would in a non-POIS person.
These are all strictly my theories, please let me know your thoughts and challenge me if you disagree with something so that I can research a bit more.
Hi Joelawerence,
Very interesting article, thanks for the link. I also read the article it is based on ( http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2796.2010.02321.x/#js-feedback), by Dr Jared M. Huston and Dr K.J. Tracey, pioneers of the research on the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway and the Inflammatory reflex. Very detailed and very instructive article.
I agree with you that when the "smart" vagus stimulation is decreased, than, in the light of what those articles explain, inflammation is produced because the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway is disrupted. However, the mechanism by which it happens in POIS is not clear yet - it is not clear yet as to why "ejaculation is inflammatory" ( I agree that frequent ejaculations can lead to prostatitis, but only one ejaculation in months can trigger full blown POIS, so I think there has to be something more radical at play in POIS - see below for my ideas on this ).
About testosterone, I am not sure it is central for all POIS sufferers. Many have reported normal T levels, and have POIS. I do agree that testosterone, as well as progesterone, promote immune tolerance ( and that may be a reason why they help some members) , they help calm down the immune system. TRT may also be beneficial when T levels are below normal range. But if T levels are normal, then something else seems to be at play. I believe that inflammatory reflex problems caused by low vagal tone ( or another cause for the triggering of inflammation reactions in the body after ejaculation) appears more attractive as an overall hypothesis for POIS physiopathology.
In addition to the above articles, I also went back the the groundbreaking 2007 article of Dr Tracey about the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway ( CAP ), at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1783813/ , a briliiant article as well, that have helped me deepen my understanding of the CAP.
The cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway ( CAP ), which includes the vagal nerve efferent effect on the spleen, is quite new information for me ( nothing of this was known when I was in university - i am too old ;) ) . These are quite new and exciting notions, very much on the edge of health science. For example, a big block of the CAP have been discovered only in 2011 - the existence of specialized T cells in the spleen producing acetylcholine in response to vagus nerve efferent signals, this ACh production then causing the inhibition of pro-inflammatory cytokines productions by other immune cells in the spleen.
The CAP mechanism brings more clarity as to why certain elements of my method of prevention and control of POIS are effective, in particular those elements like meditation, yoga, and hanging with people I enjoy being with. Other part of my method are more straightforward ( for the description of my current method, see http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2090.0 ). I have already accepted that pro-inflammatory cytokines were at work in POIS, based on Dr Waldinger hypothesis, and have included this in my own vision of POIS physiopathology, as you have read in many of my posts here. I have included in my method natural products that block the production of those cytokines ( antioxydants and TNF alpha blockers and IL-6 and other pro-inflammatory cytokines blockers like green tea and turmeric, and also Moducare, that I have talked about last year , milk thistle, lycopene, ...), and I have also included products targeting some of the effects I suppose those pro-inflammatory cytokines have, and in particular, immune upregulating of the IDO and TDO enzymes, disrupting the metabolism of tryptophan and causing my severe emotional symptoms ( anxiety, mood swings, ...). I have included too NMDA blockers, to help protect the brain cells against the excitotoxicity caused by the inflammatory reaction reaching the brain, and reduce the anxiety and other emotional symptoms caused by my POIS. But now, this new notion that pro-inflammatory cytokines production can be stopped by a control reflex through the vagus nerve, and then the splenic nerve, is a scientific basis for the efficiency of meditation, tai chi, and yoga in reducing my POIS, as well as is enjoying quality time with people I love. All these are raising HRV ( heart rate variability), which is a measure of the vagus nerve activity - the "smart" vagus, the most evolved one, as described in the Polyvagal Theory. Even if Dr Huston and Dr Tracey suggest that we may be able one day to trigger the CAP without affecting the heart, I think it is safe for now to say that if HRV is raised, we have also activated the CAP and have reduced inflammation in our body.
If the CAP disruption hypothesis applies to POIS, this means that everything raising HRV is good for POIS ( I think there is a quite extensive list of things raising HRV in the HRV thread)
It is still not clear to me what causes, in POIS, the inflammation and the release of cytokines in the first place. Is it a hypersensitivity reaction, type I and Type IV, as proposed by Dr Waldinger, caused by some component in the semen? Or is it an autonomic dysfunction that shuts off the "smart vagus" ? Now that I know about CAP, it is clear that shutting it down leads to a massive production of pro-inflammatory cytokines in the spleen, because the inhibitory action of the vagus in no longer inhibiting them - but is CAP shut down in POIS, and if it is, how and why ?. That's an interesting new hypothesis for me. Is it possible that the firing of one reflex ( the ejaculation reflex) interferes with another reflex loop ( the anti-inflammatory reflex), so its efferent part, the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway, in shut down? This would free the way for massive pro-inflammatory cytokines production, and explain POIS symptoms. Allergy-like symptoms, flu-like symptoms, cognitive, dermatological and gastro-intestinal symptoms, as well as emotional symptoms, can all be explained by too much TNF-alpha, IL-6, PAF and the like. Restoring the proper feedback control of the CAP by vagus nerve stimulation would then be a treatment, as proposed by the Rutgers study.
When writing about the Polyvagal Theory, at the start of this thread, I was wondering if POIS could be a problem of our autonomic system getting out of the "smart"vagus response into the sympathetic response when ejaculation occurs, and then, instead of returning to "smart" vagus, goes the other way, in the "old" vagus direction. I would be very interested to know if that would make sense and fit with Polyvagal Theory. If the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathways is a smart vagus feature, shutting down the smart vagus would shut CAP down, and "Old" vagus does not support CAP, and POIS appears. That sounds like a programming error in the operating system, and a bad command causes the software to crash and regress to an older version...! Well, too soon to know what really happens. However, the current Rutgers Study may shed some light on this!
As a way of integrating this new information in my anti-POIS method, I may add a little lecithin whenever I have some residual symptoms of POIS. Lecithin, and also eggs, are good source of choline, a precursor of acetylcholine ( ACh). ACh is the agonist of the immune cells receptors in the spleen, at the end of the CAP. Those receptors are alpha-7 nicotinic ACh receptors, and are very specific for ACh ( there are many a7 NAChR agonists in the pipeline study of big pharma, but none on the market so far). Having more acetylcholine in your system does a job similar in the spleen as does vagus nerve stimulation.
Thanks again for your great input, Joelawerence. You seems to be very active in your search about POIS, keep up the good work. The more we write and share about our ideas, the more we have chances to solve the POIS puzzle!
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Thank you for taking the time to explain that , Quantum
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Thank you for taking the time to explain that , Quantum
Thanks G-man. I hope we will all have a good understanding of the Polyvagal Theory, of Heart rate Variability ( HRV), and of that Cholinergic Anti-inflammatory Pathway (CAP), and how they all relate to POIS, when the Rutgers Study results will be out.
I will continue to dig these subjects, which are very interesting. It is not all clear yet how this all ties with POIS. I think we still have to ponder, share and search around those themes, and see how they help us with our understanding of POIS and how to manage it and prevent it.
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I have all sorts of of dysautonomia. Poly vagal theory doesn't relate in that its not an explanation of pois at all in any way. I am an expert in the autonomic system and of course that relates to some of our symptoms. But you can't say it's vagal which has to do with the parasympathetic nervous system. Just doesnt make sense on a lot of levels
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I have all sorts of of dysautonomia. Poly vagal theory doesn't relate in that its not an explanation of pois at all in any way. I am an expert in the autonomic system and of course that relates to some of our symptoms. But you can't say it's vagal which has to do with the parasympathetic nervous system. Just doesnt make sense on a lot of levels
Hi Disaster,
One thing the Polyvagal theory helps to understand is the activity of the vagal nerve, which, among other things, manifests itself through a pathway controlling the immune system activity - the Cholinergic anti-inflammatory Pathway ( CAP ). So, this is not mainly about dysautonomia, but about massive production of pro-inflammatory cytokines when the vagal tone is too low for the CAP to be up and running. While the Polyvagal theory is still a theory, the Cholinergic Anti-inflammatory Pathway ( CAP) is established as a reality, through different studies and discoveries. The inappropriate immune activity resulting from the shut down of the CAP could explain most, if not all, of the inflammatory symptoms seen in POIS ( allergy-like, flu-like, dermatological, gastro-intestinal, muscular, as well as cognitive and emotional symptoms, .... ), and in other syndromes as well. The existence of the CAP shows that a syndrome can both be of neurological and immunological origin, and explains why. I do not say that the Polyvagal Theory and CAP bring the definitive solution to POIS pathophysiology, both it is interesting, to say the least, and, moreover, the current ongoing study, founded by the members of this forum, is partly based on the Polyvagal theory, and I suppose the Rutgers team is well aware of the existence of the CAP. That alone is a good reason to study both the Polyvagal theory and the CAP, if only for a better understanding of the results of the study when they will be out.
See the links earlier in this thread for more information about this aspect of the Polyvagal theory and about the Cholinergic anti-inflammatory Pathway ( CAP ), or just go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholinergic_anti-inflammatory_pathway for a starter about CAP.
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Quantum, that is incorrect. First off CAP is a very new finding and not very established. It's a very general finding that links the autonomic system with the immune system. Dysautonomia illness has the most autonomic dysfunction out of all illnesses combined. I know thousand with the disease and they don't all have immune problems of any kind. Some have very severe parasympathetic dysfunction too. Cholinergic means acetycholine or parasympathetic chemical transmitter. In many people with dysautonomia they have co existing autoimmune illnesses. And dysautonomia currently is being studied right now as a stand alone autoimmune illness that affects autonmic receptors.
In any case you can't have vagus problems and only have pois symptoms. It woldn't make sense at all in any way no matter what crack pot scientist tries to explain it. The vagal nerve interacts with the heart, veins, lungs and would cause symptoms that pois people are simply not reporting at all.
Does POIS cause autonomic dysfunction? In my case not directly, yet I have severe autonmic dysfunction. Does POIS cause autoimmune type of problem, I believe so. Can autoimmune inflammation type of probems affect the autonomic nervous system. I believe I am living lroof of that. I think after year of inflammation it eventually got into my autonomic nerves. Do all pois people get dysautonomia, I dont know any! Do all dysautonomia people get pois, out of the thousands I know none else have pois.
Most likeley pois is an autoimmune illness of sorts in that the allergic response we get to O is triggerring autoimmune type of inflammation or attacks. Possibly it is a vasculitis inflamming our veins which reach into our brains and throughout all our organs. Or through another pathway like the lymphatic sysmptom.. The Poly Vagal Theory is a classic case of twist reality to conform whatever a person wants. They mix in some real stuff and it sounds terrific but in reality that is only to an untrained person. I wish it was true but it's not. Sorry
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Has anyone in the US tried this? It seems to activate the vagus nerve to release dopamine.
http://futurism.com/this-startup-gets-you-high-on-dopamine-no-exercise-required/
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Quantum, that is incorrect. First off CAP is a very new finding and not very established. It's a very general finding that links the autonomic system with the immune system. Dysautonomia illness has the most autonomic dysfunction out of all illnesses combined. I know thousand with the disease and they don't all have immune problems of any kind. Some have very severe parasympathetic dysfunction too. Cholinergic means acetycholine or parasympathetic chemical transmitter. In many people with dysautonomia they have co existing autoimmune illnesses. And dysautonomia currently is being studied right now as a stand alone autoimmune illness that affects autonmic receptors.
In any case you can't have vagus problems and only have pois symptoms. It woldn't make sense at all in any way no matter what crack pot scientist tries to explain it. The vagal nerve interacts with the heart, veins, lungs and would cause symptoms that pois people are simply not reporting at all.
Does POIS cause autonomic dysfunction? In my case not directly, yet I have severe autonmic dysfunction. Does POIS cause autoimmune type of problem, I believe so. Can autoimmune inflammation type of probems affect the autonomic nervous system. I believe I am living lroof of that. I think after year of inflammation it eventually got into my autonomic nerves. Do all pois people get dysautonomia, I dont know any! Do all dysautonomia people get pois, out of the thousands I know none else have pois.
Most likeley pois is an autoimmune illness of sorts in that the allergic response we get to O is triggerring autoimmune type of inflammation or attacks. Possibly it is a vasculitis inflamming our veins which reach into our brains and throughout all our organs. Or through another pathway like the lymphatic sysmptom.. The Poly Vagal Theory is a classic case of twist reality to conform whatever a person wants. They mix in some real stuff and it sounds terrific but in reality that is only to an untrained person. I wish it was true but it's not. Sorry
The truth is no one knows what exactly causes POIS symptoms. All we are doing is trying to view it through different lenses from a layman perspective with whatever information is out there in the internet. From what I have read in the internet the Vagus nerve is a large part of the autonomic nervous system (especially the parasympathetic path), so what let?s you believe that the vagus nerve is not involved in your Dysautonomia condition? Also your symptoms seem to be different to typical POIS categories and you also have pretty bad symptoms, which suggests to me that there is more than POIS in play in your case?
The allergic reaction to ejaculation/semen is the biggest BS out there. I have no allergy to any allegens and still have a bad case of POIS.
There could still be a case of this being an auto-immune condition but the reaction would not be to the semen but to some other enzyme produced by the body.
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Quantum, that is incorrect. First off CAP is a very new finding and not very established. It's a very general finding that links the autonomic system with the immune system. Dysautonomia illness has the most autonomic dysfunction out of all illnesses combined. I know thousand with the disease and they don't all have immune problems of any kind. Some have very severe parasympathetic dysfunction too. Cholinergic means acetycholine or parasympathetic chemical transmitter. In many people with dysautonomia they have co existing autoimmune illnesses. And dysautonomia currently is being studied right now as a stand alone autoimmune illness that affects autonmic receptors.
In any case you can't have vagus problems and only have pois symptoms. It woldn't make sense at all in any way no matter what crack pot scientist tries to explain it. The vagal nerve interacts with the heart, veins, lungs and would cause symptoms that pois people are simply not reporting at all.
Does POIS cause autonomic dysfunction? In my case not directly, yet I have severe autonmic dysfunction. Does POIS cause autoimmune type of problem, I believe so. Can autoimmune inflammation type of probems affect the autonomic nervous system. I believe I am living lroof of that. I think after year of inflammation it eventually got into my autonomic nerves. Do all pois people get dysautonomia, I dont know any! Do all dysautonomia people get pois, out of the thousands I know none else have pois.
Most likeley pois is an autoimmune illness of sorts in that the allergic response we get to O is triggerring autoimmune type of inflammation or attacks. Possibly it is a vasculitis inflamming our veins which reach into our brains and throughout all our organs. Or through another pathway like the lymphatic sysmptom.. The Poly Vagal Theory is a classic case of twist reality to conform whatever a person wants. They mix in some real stuff and it sounds terrific but in reality that is only to an untrained person. I wish it was true but it's not. Sorry
Hi Disaster,
I am sorry to have read in other threads that you have a very severe case of POIS, as well as two auto-immune illnesses on top of that. I wish you to find relief for all of your conditions, as soon as possible. Also, iI is totally ok that you do not agree with the Polyvagal theory and the new findings about the CAP. However, even if you experience much pain, and that it can make you edgy, and even if you do not agree with the Polyvagal Theory and about CAP, that does not justify you saying things like " It woldn't make sense at all in any way no matter what crack pot scientist tries to explain it." and "The Poly Vagal Theory is a classic case of twist reality to conform whatever a person wants. They mix in some real stuff and it sounds terrific but in reality that is only to an untrained person" . Let me remind you of the first community guideline of the poiscenter forum: " Be nice and supportive: POISCenter works because we support and care for one another. Be nice, and be supportive. Do your best to respect differing points of view." ( (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259 ). All members here are suffering from POIS. They have gathered $33 000 in order to found a study on POIS, which is a great accomplishment in itself. It happens that the ongoing Rutgers study, the one you wanted to be part of, is partly based on the Polyvagal theory and the role of the vagal nerve in POIS, and the researchers leading it have a positive perception of the Polyvagal theory, and part of the study experimental design is based on it. NORD, a very respectable organization, have chosen the Rutgers team study among the all the POIS study projects they have received, as the most valuable one. So, even if your do not agree with this, I invite to voice your opinions with more respect, as they are not facts, but opinions. Simply explain that you do not agree, and why, and what is your own opinion. And, keep an open mind, and a friendly attitude, being aware of the potential emotional and relational effects of what you express, and, importantly, of the words you choose to express it.
As Jowlawerence have just written in his post to you, the truth is no one knows what exactly causes POIS symptoms. I have no problems that you have clear ideas about what POIS is not and what it may be. We share our ideas, whatever they are. No one here can claim to be an authority on POIS, and it is better to share what you think about POIS for what it is, that is, hypothesis. You can also share what has been working - or not - for you. That's ok if you know a lot about neurology and immunology, and it is of great value if you share here what you know and how it relate to POIS.
As I said in the first post of this thread, I have opened it so all members can get at least a minimum of knowledge about the Polyvagal Theory, so we all have a better understanding of the results of the study, when they will be out. I, personally, knew almost nothing about this theory up to a few weeks ago, it didn't know neither about the Cholinergic Auto-Immune Pathway ( but I did know for a long time about HRV). So, this is a thread to get familiar with PVT, CAP, and all things related, and, hopefully, share our ideas on how they can help understand POIS pathophysiology. It is in no way an attempt of mine to prove - or not - that the Polyvagal theory or the CAP are THE way to go in order to solve the POIS problem. We are only in the process of getting to know more about it, and see what it can bring as a benefit for us POIS sufferers, and, prepare to get the most out of the study results the members have paid for.
This thread is neutral, as I am, about the value of PVT and CAP. As a matter of fact, my current take on the pathophysiology of POIS does not include PVT elements or CAP, as I am just currently getting to know these better. I have already express my views elsewhere on this forum, and my hypotheses about POIS are still a "work in progress" (If interested, see http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2078.msg16431#msg16431 for more info of my personal, current views on POIS pathophysiology ) . You can go ahead and do the same and start your own thread, where you can propose your own hypothesis about the pathophysiology and treatment of POIS.
We are all here, together, to do our best with the information we have, and from our empirical successes and fails. Slowly but surely, I am sure we will solve the POIS puzzle. In the meantime, I wish you will find ways to get some relief for your POIS symptoms, Disaster.
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Disaster,
It's obvious that you're suffering, but so is every other forum member here.
As Quantum stated, this forum has rules that must be followed. Those rules make this a valuable, safe, respectful and RESPECTED forum.
So, to repeat Quantum's recommendation, please review the forum rules. Especially note:
"Be supportive. Poiscenter works because we support and care for one another. Be nice, and be supportive. Do your best to respect differing points of view."
The general rule of thumb about posts on this forum is -- if your comment generates more heat than light, don't post it. Offensive comments will be removed by the moderators.
Stef
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Let me just say this is a forum and as such words can get interpreted as more offensive then they were meant to be, Notice my wording was generalized and not attacking any particular memeber. Poly Vagal is not a theory created by anyone in this group. People might believe in it but my words can only be directed to the theory and it's creators. Its a problem I see that sick people are prayed upon all the time with new theories. Half of snopes are crack pot health and illness theories. Once the creators convice a person of it's validity it's almost impossible to convince you otherwise.
I never meant that vagal problems were not the root of my dysautonomia. What I meant and I thought I said it clearly was that with vagal dysfunction there are proven symptoms and none of which are associated with the symptoms of POIS. It's as simple as that. Oesn't matter if it was chosen by NORD, NIH or any other group. There are a million studies on a million illnesses that sometimes go down the wrong path. I'm happy to test out Vagal Nerve Stimulation because they are currently testing it for dysautonomia at one of the best autonomic labs in the country Vanderbilt University https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02281097 Infact years ago I was the first person to mention the idea on a dysautonomia forum that Vanderbilt monitors. So I know what the vagus nerve controls, I know what the effects of stimulations does it is just not possible it is the main problem in pois. I wish it was. If it offers any jind of relief that is awesome and like I said I am willing to try almost anything and I have. I have also taken Mestinon which is a Muscarinic parasympathic medicine. I have alos take Choline and other acetycholine supplements. They don't help not even a little.
Stef do you have POIS. How did you become a moderator of this forum? Is it just an administrative this for you? Just curious? I haven't met any women with POIS yet. Having this illness and sufferring like we do creates a passion for dealing with this illness. I am the most supportive person you will ever meet. This wasn't any issue of being supportive, this was a debatable issue. i was debating it. Simply voicing my opinion which happened to be different. So I could say the same about "doing your best to support differing views" mine is also differing...i did not say anything offensive about Quantum. No adjectives were directed toward anyone on the forum.
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It woldn't [sic] make sense at all in any way no matter what
crack pot scientist tries to explain it. The vagal nerve...
To whom are you referring?
Edit>>>From our Community Guidelines:
"[Prohibited behavior]...includes derogatory remarks, attacks, or threats against POISCenter or POISCenter partners. "
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Stef do you have POIS. How did you become a moderator of this forum? Is it just an administrative this [sic] for you? Just curious? I haven't met any women with POIS yet.
Having this illness and sufferring like we do creates a passion for dealing with this illness.
This is borderline *ad hominem ! After years of intimate involvement with POIS research, Stef was very warmly INVITED here because of her incredible passion as a medical practitioner and researcher who SINGLEHANDEDLY moved us from The Dark Ages of POIS into the world of scientific research on rare disorders! Without her, we would still be debating whether or not arugula can cure POIS!
You just might owe her an apology, Disaster.
*prohibited here, per forum rules, as Quantum & Stef already pointed out to you:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259
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The main reason for this forum was to move away from conjecture and begin solid expert medical research.
One may think that an afflicted individual of any rare disease (or condition) would be the best to analyze and evaluate its inner workings:
"it feels like such and such so the remedy must be the same". NOT!
An afflicted individual, likely even an expert afflicted individual could well be improperly swayed by "how he feels".
There are just too many medical anomolies that feel alike but have completely differing solutions. Unless the specific controlled tests are done no-one can say "it's not possible that..." or "you can't have a vagal problem and only have POIS" etc.
Has such been proven? It may "feel like it", but what underlying elements may exist that "could" produce the just POIS result.
No one here has the credentials to make outright declarations about POIS.
We "hired" a highly qualified professional to study POIS. Is he on the right path? We still don't know, but his professionalism will produce results which should shed deeper light on the subject.
If he says it is vagal such will be supported by medical fact, whether it's direct or indirect, or not at all. Of course we hope that his results show as much positive potential as possible, but as far as I'm concerned, anything that he produces will be better than ANY of our guesswork.
I invite the member to understand that noone knows what POIS is or isn't. Take what you hear with a grain of salt, and remember, how it feels isn't necesarily how it is. Noone here has the knowledge or facts enough to make outright afirmations.
Well maybe you could get away with saying POIS doesn't effect the color of the sky.... although sometimes it seems like it. :)
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Well said, Daveman!
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Has anyone in the US tried this? It seems to activate the vagus nerve to release dopamine.
http://futurism.com/this-startup-gets-you-high-on-dopamine-no-exercise-required/
Interesting, joelawerence!
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I have not read all yet but the picture with the electric battery makes me think to something.
It's like if we have an abnormal residual activity after ejaculation in the vagus nerve. Maybe this activity use neurotransmitters like dopamine/acetylcholine ant it may cause a deficiency after day 2 (which is often the worst for many Poisers).
We have problem to TURN OFF the nerve after ejaculation. And the multiple "remedies" we try are more or less solutions to turn off more quickly.
I say this because I sleep much better with taurine, I feel less nervous activity like restless legs after orgasm.
I have another idea but its not easy to explain. Ejaculation and orgasm are two different things. And I wonder which is the culprit. I think it's possible to have powerful orgasm or on the contrary, mechanical/automatical ejaculation.
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We have a problem to TURN OFF the [vagus] nerve...
Interesting perspective, b_jim!!
(http://www.bible.ca/psychiatry/psychiatry-mental-illness-depression-brain-electro-shock-treatments-vagus-nerve-stimulation-VNS-cyberonics-9volt-battery-tongue.gif)
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Good idea b_jim, all the info involving the vagus nerve really does seem very promising, and it feels like the best we've come so far in figuring this out. :) I always read something new about the vagus nerve that surprises me, and I'm always amazed and excited about the potential implications it has for us! It's really a great position we're in right now with vagus nerve being the big focus.
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(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/900CCCDA-E1A6-4D5C-99EA-D84F06C33C9F.jpg)
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Good idea b_jim, all the info involving the vagus nerve really does seem very promising, and it feels like the best we've come so far in figuring this out. :) I always read something new about the vagus nerve that surprises me, and I'm always amazed and excited about the potential implications it has for us! It's really a great position we're in right now with vagus nerve being the big focus.
Well said, Prancer!
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Article: "Transcutaneous Vagal Nerve Stimulation (tVNS): a new neuromodulation tool in healthy humans?"
February, 2015
Frontiers in Psychology
Cognition
http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.00102/full
Mentions Cerbomed tVNS device we discussed extensively in another thread. If you know the link please post :)
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(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/81CAA527-051E-4904-AD82-59FBECEBC13F.png)
http://www.redpilllife.com/blog/holy-vagus-this-nerve-does-what/
Interesting read, but skip the advertising!
- demo :)
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(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/1B94C76B-E5E8-4C54-A650-A782A522561E_1.jpg)
Just another ad...:)
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mp3 audio & transcript: Stephen Porges: The Polyvagal Theory & The Vagal Nerve –
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/C994627E-6BE9-4D81-BD8D-F5106A6C749F.jpg)
https://www.bulletproofexec.com/stephen-porges-the-polyvagal-theory-the-vagal-nerve-264/
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Quantum, I hope the above doesn't duplicate anything you've already presented on Stephen Porges.
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Non-technical "Popular Psychology" 2007 article about Stephen Porges and the Vagus Nerve:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200706/mind-your-body-higher-road-relaxation
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For your interest:
http://experiencenervana.com/technology-vagus-nerve-stimulation/#parentHorizontalTab2
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For your interest:
http://experiencenervana.com/technology-vagus-nerve-stimulation/#parentHorizontalTab2
Posting a product website is normally against the rules ("No commercial use, promotion or solicitation"), but you have in the past posted appropriately and this is topically about VNS.
So...it would be very helpful to briefly explain why you are posting this particular product?
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I have zero economic interest in my post. In the past there have been a number of members on this forum, asking where they can find a stimulator, that's all.
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I have zero economic interest in my post. In the past there have been a number of members on this forum, asking where they can find a stimulator, that's all.
Thank you, freedeer!
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Cross posted from "Familiar Place".
Non-technical "Psychology Today" 2007 article about Stephen Porges and the Vagus Nerve:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200706/mind-your-body-higher-road-relaxation
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The brain, FRMI and possible knock on effects to Vagus Nerve. I think this reminds us why Rutgers were awarded the research project for our syndrome.
Here's what happens in women's brains at O, can't imagine our brains do nothing :)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2062748/MRI-scan-video-female-orgasm-shows-activity-lights-EVERY-region-brain.html
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Fascinating, COLM! And our very own Rutgers' Dr Nan Wise is brain-scanned in orgasm with Dr Komisaruk supervising.
The article mentions that orgasm culminates in a release of oxytocin (the 'cuddle hormone'). In Europe, they even sell a nasal spray with oxytocin.
But it can be a dangerous drug to take.
We had a lot of discussion @ TNS/POIS about oxytocin (possible POIS treatment?). You can copy and paste this in your Google search box and a number of oxytocin discussions will come up:
oxytocin POIS site:http://thenakedscientists.com
Use spaces and no-spaces as shown directly above this line.
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How do you like the name of this rock band?
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/3B606871-B0FF-499B-A968-729F81133D14.jpg)
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The [COLM article above] mentions that orgasm culminates in a release of oxytocin (the 'cuddle hormone'). In Europe, they even sell a nasal spray with oxytocin.
But it can be a dangerous drug to take.
We had a lot of discussion @ TNS/POIS about oxytocin (possible POIS treatment?). You can copy and paste this in your Google search box and a number of oxytocin discussions will come up:
oxytocin POIS site:http://thenakedscientists.com
Use spaces and no-spaces as shown directly above this line.
"Can oxytocin ease shyness?", Time Magazine:
http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1820828,00.html
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[Oxytocin] can be a dangerous drug to take.
http://chicago.medicine.uic.edu/UserFiles/Servers/Server_442934/Image/obgyn2/annual%20conference/powerpoints/mfm/2.Leftwich.Wilson.final.pdf
Slides from the above link:
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/271836DB-387D-4FD8-A2AA-8A2CC6143519.png)
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/010B4D10-9160-4E42-93AB-0A0F3FE03F7D.png)
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"Vagus Nerve" in the news
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/4D175792-20E4-43E1-8474-E0425B118337.png)
http://www.webmd.com/brain/news/20160412/vagus-nerve-stimulation-treatment
I saw another splashy Vagus Nerve headline article in the paper edition of WebMD in my doctor's office today. (I hope science fares better with POIS than it did for the common cold I came in for!) There's a nasty virus going around, long-LONG lasting (weeks/months) so stay well!
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The press seems to be having a field day with Vagus Nerve coverage.
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/B536B36F-E800-4008-AD8F-446CC0A8DBEB.png)
https://www.yashodahospitals.com/blog/health-news/stroke-patient-recovery-by-vagus-nerve-stimulation
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(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/8FC15634-AE7C-43C0-8D0B-7EA56C9E0A96.png)
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7469526
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(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/6ED57113-00F5-44AF-824E-D18F3DB76DB2.jpeg)(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/74AA7F3A-CB6E-4F53-BFEF-66F925CE9358.png)
https://www.yogauonline.com/yogau-wellness-blog/vital-vagus-what-vagus-nerve-and-what-does-it-do
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(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/9674C204-DB38-4BBA-9253-84D9A87AF0B6.jpeg)
http://neurosciencenews.com/dbs-vagus-nerve-5882/
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Cross-posted from NORD Interim thread about HRV. Also discusses Polyvagal Theory
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/C5BDCC78-5F6E-43D8-A7D4-9B8259B8B1FE.png)
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-neuroscience-of-heart/
In Stef's post -- http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2086.45
-- she summarizes an early interim report by Dr Komisaruk, in which he discusses HRV (heart rate variability) and how it might relate to POIS.
This article seems to explain HRV in clear language.
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Cross-posted from NORD Interim thread about HRV. Also discusses Polyvagal Theory
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/C5BDCC78-5F6E-43D8-A7D4-9B8259B8B1FE.png)
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-neuroscience-of-heart/
In Stef's post -- http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2086.45
-- she summarizes an early interim report by Dr Komisaruk, in which he discusses HRV (heart rate variability) and how it might relate to POIS.
This article seems to explain HRV in clear language.
Another thread about HRV from here, started by b_jim, and where I also gave detailed information about HRV and its measurement as well:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2179.msg17607#msg17607 .
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Thanks, Quantum!
EXCELLENT b_jim thread (with great Quantum HRV-info) that you posted above.
( http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2179.msg17607#msg17607 )
Many thanks for the reminder!
Demo
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Vagus Nerve in the news:
Medscape
February 27, 2017
"Vagal Nerve Stimulation [VNS] Improves Arm Function After Stroke"
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/876351
(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/9C78453E-AFCF-47C3-9B93-94B4467ACEB6.jpeg)
"Spectacular" Results
Commenting on the study, American Heart Association/American Stroke Association spokesperson, Philip Gorelick, MD, MPH, medical director, Hauenstein Neuroscience Center, Grand Rapids, Michigan, described the results as "pretty spectacular."
I'm hoping that we POISers will eventually join the growing list of successful VNS applications!
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Wow I haven't been here in about a year and I return to see more attacks my way. How is that Rutgers vagal study going? That wasted how many years? I hope you take my advice and go in another direction and with more competent researchers. And I hope they don't use obscure theories to focus their research on. Smh