Dopamine

[berhune]

Well, my experiment with supplemental dopamine basically failed.  It just gave me slight headaches and, after the placebo wore off, disappointment.

[Daveman]

Well, my experiment with supplemental dopamine basically failed.  It just gave me slight headaches and, after the placebo wore off, disappointment.

This doesn´t really surprise me, and it doesn't necesarily mean that the problem isn't dopamine related.

I remember many, many yeasr sago, when I was in systems repair service for an airline, we had this console that was very hard to diagnose. We'd get in ther with oscilloscope and testers and follow the leads to find a problem with the circuit. Finally you'd nail it down to a bad transistor, where the signal was distorted. Change the transistor, and NO, the same distortion.

The circuit was so complex, (like the human body) that one problem somewhare else reflected all through this stupid circuit. It was very difficult to diagnose.

And POIS is like that. It's almost certain the dopamine is upset (has the distorted signal), but just supplementing it doesn't do anything, the circuit just readjusts itself to a different form of imbalance.

The only solultion is to find and remedy the cause....

In that light, we have raised $24700 of the $33,500 we need for our POIS research program which we HOPE to meet by March of this next year.... And if we don't make it, I guess we should by March of 2014.

Thanks Berhune for your input. At least we can go eliminating methods that haven't worked for us.

[Vincent M]

Well, my experiment with supplemental dopamine basically failed.  It just gave me slight headaches and, after the placebo wore off, disappointment.

The problem with mucuna pruriens  is that while it does contain levodopa and levodopa does cross the blood brain barrier and convert to dopamine too much of it is converted to dopamine before it reaches the brain. This excess of dopamine in the peripheral nervous system isn't good and doesn't provide the same benefit that dopamine has in the brain. I think I remember reading something about how high peripheral dopamine is harmful to the heart, but I'm not sure. If I took it again I'd take only 350mg daily for three days and monitor my heart for the following week before taking any more just to make sure. I've never had any problems with my heart before so it made me sort of concerned.

[over it]

This is an article that talks about the possible adverse effects of excessive orgasm and its effects on the natural cycle of the endocrine system. It cites studies performed on rats where the male rat is introduced to a "novelty mate" which motivates the male rat to copulate more frequently than it would have otherwise, causing it to experience anxiety rather than satisfaction and exhibit behaviour indicative of low dopamine levels. It then gos on to draw the anology of internet porn.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201205/men-does-frequent-ejaculation-cause-hangover

[bjameshill]

This is from the article:  "After 6 days of no porn/masturbation, I used it. Now, a day later, I feel a strong urge to use porn even though my penis is totally dead. It is NOT the penis needing the porn. No way. It is the brain. Here are my symptoms: Tired. Today I slept a lot. Bad flu-like symptoms. My throat aches like crazy. Depressive. I see everything in black. It's almost like the worst day of my life.  Anxious, afraid. My voice is f-ed up. Had couple of really strange d?j? vu experiences. Been thinking a lot about a few porn stars; can't get them out of my head. Can't work. I'm restless and disorganized."

Sound familiar?  Thanks for the link, overit. 

[LAPOISSE]

Vicent M, everything you are taking is suposed to be "dopamine booster" ; the green tea is not commun here and it's an interesting one.

How do you guy consider the intensity of your orgasm ? Mines are quite high . Do you noticed a link between the intensity of the O and the POIS symtoms ?

What if we are "orgasm/dopamine dependent"(dopamine is the reward hormone, what is O if not a reward?) ? let's say we get an unusual dopamin surge when O. We constantly need(everyday for years) need to get that surge, levels or dopamine get high and are regulated by oxitocyn and prolactin...For years, it's OK but then the machine get tired or prolactin get nasty(higher or for a longer period in the brain that it should be) , we stay down and are dopamine depleted(I mean the dopamine form usable by the brain) ; No need to look at something else, domaine depletion explain mostly everything including inflamation so joint pain, flue likes symtoms, etc ; Then we notice something is wrong with orgasm and we start to slow down frequency of O ; The problem is your brain dopamine is down and 1/2 surges a week is not enough and we get highest rebound/roller coster effect (Somebody here recently said that he was better with one orgasm a day because it was at  the 2day  that he felt the worst, same for me ; I also can say that my POIS is much more difficult to handle since I started noticed it and delay my O) , also, you get less endorphine and you are more stressed what slow down your thyroid and low thyroid drive dopamine down ; I'm sure it makes also other problem. This is very probably a very simplified version of what it could be but I would be very amazed if dopamine is not involved in here.

I know very well the rebound effect as I unfortunatly experienced SSRI ; Works the same ; keep level of serotonine(and very probably dopamine also) high artificialy by blocking reuptake mechanism ; When you remove the drug you crash(what psychanalist call very abusivly relapse), same thing if you take extasy or cocaine for 48 hours(experienced that also)..normaly your brain rebalance after a while but what if we had rollercoster for years ?

[FornicationDENIED]

Vicent M, everything you are taking is suposed to be "dopamine booster" ; the green tea is not commun here and it's an interesting one.

How do you guy consider the intensity of your orgasm ? Mines are quite high . Do you noticed a link between the intensity of the O and the POIS symtoms ?

What if we are "orgasm/dopamine dependent"(dopamine is the reward hormone, what is O if not a reward?) ? let's say we get an unusual dopamin surge when O. We constantly need(everyday for years) need to get that surge, levels or dopamine get high and are regulated by oxitocyn and prolactin...For years, it's OK but then the machine get tired or prolactin get nasty(higher or for a longer period in the brain that it should be) , we stay down and are dopamine depleted(I mean the dopamine form usable by the brain) ; No need to look at something else, domaine depletion explain mostly everything including inflamation so joint pain, flue likes symtoms, etc ; Then we notice something is wrong with orgasm and we start to slow down frequency of O ; The problem is your brain dopamine is down and 1/2 surges a week is not enough and we get highest rebound/roller coster effect (Somebody here recently said that he was better with one orgasm a day because it was at  the 2day  that he felt the worst, same for me ; I also can say that my POIS is much more difficult to handle since I started noticed it and delay my O) , also, you get less endorphine and you are more stressed what slow down your thyroid and low thyroid drive dopamine down ; I'm sure it makes also other problem. This is very probably a very simplified version of what it could be but I would be very amazed if dopamine is not involved in here.

I know very well the rebound effect as I unfortunatly experienced SSRI ; Works the same ; keep level of serotonine(and very probably dopamine also) high artificialy by blocking reuptake mechanism ; When you remove the drug you crash(what psychanalist call very abusivly relapse), same thing if you take extasy or cocaine for 48 hours(experienced that also)..normaly your brain rebalance after a while but what if we had rollercoster for years ?

Interesting, the Orgasm intensity actually is directly proportional to the symptoms for me. I have noticed the more intense the O, the worse I get. A nocturnal emission gives me less intense POIS than masturbating to porn for example.

[Vincent M]

Green tea might have a minor effect on dopamine, but I doubt fenugreek or saw palmetto have any effect on it.

[sameer7777]

u ar right about intense the O , the worse is POIS !!!

[Daveman]

Vicent M, everything you are taking is suposed to be "dopamine booster" ; the green tea is not commun here and it's an interesting one.

How do you guy consider the intensity of your orgasm ? Mines are quite high . Do you noticed a link between the intensity of the O and the POIS symtoms ?

What if we are "orgasm/dopamine dependent"(dopamine is the reward hormone, what is O if not a reward?) ? let's say we get an unusual dopamin surge when O. We constantly need(everyday for years) need to get that surge, levels or dopamine get high and are regulated by oxitocyn and prolactin...For years, it's OK but then the machine get tired or prolactin get nasty(higher or for a longer period in the brain that it should be) , we stay down and are dopamine depleted(I mean the dopamine form usable by the brain) ; No need to look at something else, domaine depletion explain mostly everything including inflamation so joint pain, flue likes symtoms, etc ; Then we notice something is wrong with orgasm and we start to slow down frequency of O ; The problem is your brain dopamine is down and 1/2 surges a week is not enough and we get highest rebound/roller coster effect (Somebody here recently said that he was better with one orgasm a day because it was at  the 2day  that he felt the worst, same for me ; I also can say that my POIS is much more difficult to handle since I started noticed it and delay my O) , also, you get less endorphine and you are more stressed what slow down your thyroid and low thyroid drive dopamine down ; I'm sure it makes also other problem. This is very probably a very simplified version of what it could be but I would be very amazed if dopamine is not involved in here.

I know very well the rebound effect as I unfortunatly experienced SSRI ; Works the same ; keep level of serotonine(and very probably dopamine also) high artificialy by blocking reuptake mechanism ; When you remove the drug you crash(what psychanalist call very abusivly relapse), same thing if you take extasy or cocaine for 48 hours(experienced that also)..normaly your brain rebalance after a while but what if we had rollercoster for years ?

Interesting, the Orgasm intensity actually is directly proportional to the symptoms for me. I have noticed the more intense the O, the worse I get. A nocturnal emission gives me less intense POIS than masturbating to porn for example.

I've noticed this too, how the orgasm intensity is proportional to the severity of symptoms. The weaker the orgasm, the less symptoms (of course then I want another one and it makes it worse). An NE, although rare for me, does give me symptoms, but they are less severe. I've been thinking a lot about dopamine lately, and I know John21 has recently said he had a POIS-free orgasm because of his diet change and abstaining. He says his diet change might be boosting his dopamine levels. There was an article I read (http://www.reuniting.info/science/articles/acute_dopamine_depletion_causes_psychological_distress), which basically talks about how dopamine "plummets after orgasm". Scientists forced a low dopamine state in a very healthy, extroverted medical student, and he began experiencing OCD, thought disorders, anxiety...pretty much exactly what I (and a lot of other poisers) experience after an orgasm.

Here's the part of that article that interested me the most because it sounds EXACTLY like what I experience during POIS:

?Mr. A was a healthy, extraverted, very well functioning 21-year-old medical student without even minor psychological difficulties or psychiatric disorders in his family. His Global Assessment of Functioning Scale score was 97. Written informed consent was obtained from Mr. A. We will describe the spontaneous reported subjective experiences after he started the first dose of 750 mg AMPT at t = 0 hours (1).
?After 7 hours, Mr. A felt more distance between himself and his environment. Stimuli had less impact; visual and audible stimuli were less sharp. He experienced a loss of motivation and tiredness. After 18 hours, he had difficulty waking up and increasing tiredness; environmental stimuli seemed dull. He had less fluency of speech. After 20 hours, he felt confused. He felt tense before his appointment and had an urge to check his watch in an obsessive way.
?After 24 hours, Mr. A had inner restlessness, flight of ideas; his ideas seemed inflicted, and he could not remember them. He felt a loss of control over his ideas. After 28 hours, he felt ashamed, frightened, anxious, and depressed. He was afraid that the situation would continue. At that time, blepharospasm, mask face, and tremor were noted. After 30 hours, he was tired and slept 11 hours. After 42 hours, he had poor concentration. In the next hours, he returned to normal.

I really think this dopamine cause needs to be looked into more.

For sure. Although

 there's something that causes an abnormal dopamine depression. It's true that after orgasm, dopamine plummets. It does for everybody, but in our case it doesn't come back, and the
effect of the low dopamine is more exaggerated in us.

So rather than dopamine cause, there is an underlying cause, which leads to the dopamine crash.

Who knows what the mechanism is? We're hoping someone does. It could be that we lack the ability to produce or recuperate dopamine levels, or that we become insensitive to what could be normal dopamine levels. Or......

We shall soon begin the research, and we shall soon know who our investigators will be.

The deadline is approaching.

[Prancer]

Good point, it's definitely important to find out root cause and actual machanism. I'm happy about the upcoming research and the progress being made. Keep us informed! Thanks!!

[b_jim]

Mr. A was a healthy, extraverted, very well functioning 21-year-old medical student without even minor psychological difficulties or psychiatric disorders in his family. His Global Assessment of Functioning Scale score was 97. Written informed consent was obtained from Mr. A. We will describe the spontaneous reported subjective experiences after he started the first dose of 750 mg AMPT at t = 0 hours (1).
[...]
 After 42 hours, he had poor concentration. In the next hours, he returned to normal.

I really think this dopamine cause needs to be looked into more.

Agree ! I have quoted several times the study 'Subjective Experiences During Dopamine Depletion '(2005) several times on the naked scientist forum because it is the only one which describes the cogntive symptoms I have. "i feel like sleeping"
I clearly remember I had head tremors 30 min after orgasm during the first years of my Pois.

Dopamine family hormones are present in sperm : Noradrenaline (19x more than plasma), and Dopa (2x more). Enough to create a temporary deficiency ?
Dopamine crash could be linked to testosterone crash.
Dopamine could be linked to sugar.
And of course what John wrote about beans. I have eaten these beans today but I can"t have orgasm today.

[Prancer]

Agree ! I have quoted several times the study 'Subjective Experiences During Dopamine Depletion '(2005) several times on the naked scientist forum because it is the only one which describes the cogntive symptoms I have. "i feel like sleeping"
I clearly remember I had head tremors 30 min after orgasm during the first years of my Pois.

Dopamine family hormones are present in sperm : Noradrenaline (19x more than plasma), and Dopa (2x more). Enough to create a temporary deficiency ?
Dopamine crash could be linked to testosterone crash.
Dopamine could be linked to sugar.
And of course what John wrote about beans. I have eaten these beans today but I can"t have orgasm today.

And maybe that's why some of us are helped so much by testosterone. The dopamine depletion theory just makes so much sense the more I think about it. Dopamine's so important for a lot of things including memory and proper cognitive functioning as we know. I can't say for sure that this dopamine depletion is the problem (and even if it is, it might not be the actual root cause, just the effect). Either way though, my symptoms feel so much like a depletion of something, likely dopamine. Hot showers sometimes cause symptoms for me, and I know that the relaxing/pleasure feeling probably depletes a lot of dopamine as well (I'm not too sure about this though). Anyway, I hope it gets looked into a bit more because it sure seems to make a lot of sense. I should try changing my diet too and see how it goes.

[poiseidon]

The histamine H3 receptor has also been shown to presynaptically inhibit the release of a number of other neurotransmitters (i.e. it acts as an inhibitory heteroreceptor) including, but probably not limited to dopamine, GABA, acetylcholine, noradrenaline, histamine and serotonin.

which is annoying I add because such anti histamines are not yet available and I strongly feel they would do a major improvement on symptoms.

[Daveman]

The histamine H3 receptor has also been shown to presynaptically inhibit the release of a number of other neurotransmitters (i.e. it acts as an inhibitory heteroreceptor) including, but probably not limited to dopamine, GABA, acetylcholine, noradrenaline, histamine and serotonin.

which is annoying I add because such anti histamines are not yet available and I strongly feel they would do a major improvement on symptoms.

Interesting. how would that function though?

Don't we want dopamine for instance? Or does it inhibit dopamine depletion by slowing or preventing it's excessive release?

[poiseidon]

it doesnt block the release of histamine but it blocks the receptors that somehow control the modulation of such neurotransmitters.

lets say semen or "orgasm" or whatever is a flock of unharmful birds. the immune system is a radar that sends the signal producing  histamines thinking the birds are actually 'zee germans'. the h3antihistamine blocks the reception of the alarming histamines. a friendly fire that would mess with our bodys headquarters the brain. making a chain effect that lasts a few days.

desens is like updating our immune database. saying hey its just birds!

for me the picture makes sense.

it would be easy for a researcher though  to get those anti h3 and do some testing on them.

[Frank]

This is an article that talks about the possible adverse effects of excessive orgasm and its effects on the natural cycle of the endocrine system. It cites studies performed on rats where the male rat is introduced to a "novelty mate" which motivates the male rat to copulate more frequently than it would have otherwise, causing it to experience anxiety rather than satisfaction and exhibit behaviour indicative of low dopamine levels. It then gos on to draw the anology of internet porn.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201205/men-does-frequent-ejaculation-cause-hangover

This was a very intriguing article. The original link was inaccessible so I found it here.

https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/ybop-articles-on-porn-addiction-porn-induced-problems/masturbation-ejaculation-articles/men-does-frequent-ejaculation-cause-a-hangover-2012/

It suggests that it is not unexpected for men to experience the symptoms similarly likened with POIS, such as increased fatigue, and low libido when ?hacking? the reward circuitry with addictive behaviors such as watching porn or just unhealthy levels of masturbation or sex. It suggests that drug addictions have similar symptoms too.

The natural efffects of procreation on our bodies seem clear and there?s a point where it?s wise to respect these human limitations, however, we are a subset of individuals who are affected in much more severe consequences to the average.

This dopamine line of inquiry is fascinating and I will pursue it further with my own research and the support of health professionals.

My question I am trying to answer is if I have made plastic changes to my neural circuitry and as the article suggests:

 - decreased androgen receptors
 - increased estrogen receptors
 - increase in natural opioid which deplete libido

What ways can I recover this system that are known to science already?