Author Topic: Uncertainties in Waldinger's papers  (Read 3674 times)

johan

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Uncertainties in Waldinger's papers
« on: September 26, 2011, 08:47:12 AM »
Hello friends,

I'm a 28 yr old Swede who's paid attention to Dr Waldinger's work and I have showed it to an allergy doctor. She agreed to test me but first I wanted to show her Waldinger's paper so that the procedure would be the same. As I read them some things puzzle me.

In his hyposensitization paper he writes about Case A:

"Initially, dilutions of 1 on 40,000 were applied and titers were gradually increased to 1 on 20 during a period of 31 months[...] A milestone was reached at 8 months with dilutions of 1 on 6 and at 14 months with dilutions of 1 on 3." (p 1174)

This sounds strange as 1 on 3 and 1 on 6 are both higher concentrations
than the final 1 on 20.

"At one occasion, his wheal and flare response was >3+, which was followed by tapering semen concentrations and gradual re-administration of higher concentrations." (same page)

On the previous page it says:

"The inoculation (titer: 1 on 40,00) disclosed a wheal and flare reaction grade 4+..."

Then a >3+ response should occur at more than one occasion. Is there something I misunderstood?

Thankful for your help.

Johan


Daveman

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Re: Uncertainties in Waldinger's papers
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2011, 09:55:36 AM »
Hi johan,

I think what had happened is that the dilutions at one point might have reached 1 on 3, but were found to be too strong, so backing off they stabalised to something less than 1 on 20.

We have seen here too with some of our people, that they seem to find that they can double up, or push the strengths, but fairly quickly (and maybe not always in one or two applications, but over a little more time) they have to back off. Sometimes, not only because the wheal increases, but becasue POIS symptoms as a result of the ijections seem to worsen.

I'd have to re-read the papers, but it seems by our experience, that this is what is happening.

I think though, that those few who are doing the desensitizations thorugh a doctor, are finding however that the increases in strengths are moving faster than originally thought by Dr. Waldinger.

The papers only deal with two cases, so are very preliminary. We here among members probably have more results than those, although these are mostly still "in progress".

Admittedly it is still a little proven method.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 01:32:41 PM by Daveman »
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Willem

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Re: Uncertainties in Waldinger's papers
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2011, 12:06:55 PM »

"Initially, dilutions of 1 on 40,000 were applied and titers were gradually increased to 1 on 20 during a period of 31 months[...] A milestone was reached at 8 months with dilutions of 1 on 6 and at 14 months with dilutions of 1 on 3." (p 1174)

This sounds strange as 1 on 3 and 1 on 6 are both higher concentrations
than the final 1 on 20.

Hi Johan, I've reviewed the same sentence trying to understand what he did and think that it is unclear what he meant.  Why would it take 31 months to get to 1:20, but have reached 1:6 in 8 months?  Also, it doesn't make sense that it would take a full 6 months to go from 1:6 to 1:3. 

I think I've heard separately from Vandemolen (who is being treated by Dr. Waldinger) that his "maintenance" treatment is 1:20.  I'm currently doing self administered sublingual immunotherapy which is why I'm so interested in what Dr. Waldinger is up to.

johan

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Re: Uncertainties in Waldinger's papers
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2011, 12:58:30 PM »

I think what had happened is that the dilutions at one point might have reached 1 on 3, but were found to be too strong, so backing off they stabalised to something less than 1 on 20.

Thanks for replying. Maybe that's the case. But imo he should comment on this, since it at least to me looks like he's mixed up the dilutions. Also, I wouldn't call it a "milestone" if the effect was just temporary.

I'm concerned since this seems to be such a very important discovery that can help people who've suffered for a long time. Thanks to the scientific peer-reviewed publication I've found a doctor whom I've persuaded to test me and maybe treat me. I have a feeling that these unclearnesses can jeopardise the project.

Also, as the second thing I mentioned, how could he start the desensitization for Mr A at 1 on 40,000 when the skin test at this dilution gave a 4+ reaction? At 3+ reactions and higher, concentrations shold be lowered. Is the desensitazion shot different from the intracutaneous test shot?

I'll pm Vandemolen and ask him to read this. If he finds it valid maybe he can ask Dr Waldinger.

Edit 15/10: (I don't write him myself since I don't think he'll answer. I wrote him twice about sending me the articles as he suggested on the NS forum with no reply).

Johan
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 05:32:46 AM by johan »

Daveman

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Re: Uncertainties in Waldinger's papers
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2011, 04:14:11 PM »
Johan,

The Dr. waldinger papers have helped and hindered. They have gotten the foot in the door at several levels, but the lack of controls still leaves us with doubts.

This is why the donation program is so important. To get a proper study done.

As far as how the shots are done a good allergist should be clear. As far as the dilutions start with the 1:40000 seems safe, and then adjust by wheal etc rom there. If less the 1:40000 is required, it will be evident. Again, an allergist should be able to manage the procedures, that's their specialty.


Seems to me some doctors work more with semen protiens than with sperm itself. They migt have tests that they can take to zero in.


WITHOUT RESEARCH THERE WILL BE NO CURE!
Sessions 5 to 9 days, mostly Flu-like, joints, digestion problems, light cognitive.
Niacin has changed my lif though, now 1 day MAX.
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demografx

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Re: Uncertainties in Waldinger's papers
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2011, 03:29:10 AM »

Johan,

The Dr. waldinger papers have helped and hindered. They have gotten the foot in the door at several levels, but the lack of controls still leaves us with doubts.

This is why the donation program is so important. To get a proper study done.




Well stated.

I just wanted to chime in with my full concurrence :)
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demografx

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Re: Uncertainties in Waldinger's papers
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« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 10:35:58 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business