Author Topic: Infectious Causes and Treatments  (Read 9590 times)

eur79m

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Infectious Causes and Treatments
« on: February 03, 2015, 01:47:53 PM »
I opened this thread, since I am currently in pursuit of a potential infectious cause for my POIS symptoms.

Some of my story can be found here:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1205.0

I will post any updates to my antibiotics regimen and PCR results in this new thread.

Cheers

demografx

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Re: Infectious Causes and Treatments
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2015, 02:08:45 PM »
Thanks, eur79m.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

eur79m

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Re: Infectious Causes and Treatments
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2015, 08:33:14 AM »
Just a quick update concerning my PCR results concerning a potential bacterial infection. I had an ejaculate sample tested for both chlamydia trachomatis and chlamydia pneumonia, both came back negative. Common blood antibody tests for chlamydia pneumonia also indicate no currently active infection, only a prior infection, which is common for 80% of the population. My current combined antibiotic regimen is based on a chlmaydia pneumonia lymphocyte transformation test (LTT), the diagnostic value of which is rather unclear. Maybe it is detecting a cross reaction to a related antibody (neither Chl. trachomatis nor pneumonia)? I have no idea, back to square one...

The problem with any lab test is that the results are all probabilistic, I thus only know that both my best hypotheses (lyme borreliosis, chlamydia pneumonia) both seem highly unlikely. I could go on testing different specimens at different labs, which is however prohibitively expensive, and the probability of being able to confirm either hypothesis is very slim, considering prior test results.

The only thing that I can state for sure is that I feel substantially better on the combined antibiotic regimen. No more foggy head etc, minor to none post-ejaculatory symptoms, my liver test values (SGPT, ALT) are almost back to the normal range, and the pain in my liver and right groin seems to be slowly fading away. Since there was intermittent worsening, including fever, (minor herxheimer reaction?) I would exclude the anti-inflammatory effect of the antibiotics a sole cause for the observed improvement with high probability.

I will probably continue the antibiotics treatment for as long as I can bear it (till now only minor side effects) but I am not the kind of guy who likes to treat something without a proper diagnosis, which is very frustrating.

Going less Crazy

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Re: Infectious Causes and Treatments
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2015, 11:15:05 PM »
Antibiotics also lower white blood cell count which may be a factor in POIS
My POIS managed with Diet (@ diet that 100% manages my pois)Believe my POIS stems from inflammation in the gut. O = neuro POIS from inflammation from the gut

supps: microdose zyrtec if needed for food sens. ibuprofen for infl. as needed. Melatonin as needed. Big Pinch Black cumin  seeds once daily

eur79m

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Re: Infectious Causes and Treatments
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2015, 03:39:15 AM »
Antibiotics also lower white blood cell count which may be a factor in POIS

My white blood cell count is in the normal range towards the upper bound.

eur79m

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Re: Infectious Causes and Treatments
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2015, 02:06:04 PM »
I am posting to give you an update on my investigation concerning a potential infectious cause.

I followed the hard core antibiotics regime that I described previously from Dec 2014 to May 2015. During this time my well-being improved substantially, I was able to go running every second day, and had no more pain in liver and right inguinal area. While it did get substantially better, I did not get 'cured' and the last three months of the antibiotics regimen I did not register further improvements. The antibiotics regimen was very intensive and thus also affecting my body, digestion, some blood markers negatively, and this was not a long-term solution. I thus stopped the antibiotics regimen completely mid-May of this year. During the following month my liver test values (ALT) were in the normal range for the first time in five years! But things started to deteriorate quickly, POIS symptoms started to set in within days after discontinuation of the antibiotics. My general health started to decline again, I had to give up sports again and pain in my liver and right inguinal area appeared again.

My GP referred me to another infectiologist who ruled out any kind of chronic infection based on just another blood test, the standard ones that had been done already several times before. I was denied further diagnostics and treatment, even so antibiotic treatment was proven to be effective. In mid September my health had again deteriorated so far that I could not take it any more. I had not tested penicillin yet and wanted to try it because it has little side-effects, is cheap, and can be potentially taken for the long-term. I was initially again forced to obtain Amoxicillin 3000mg/day via sources outside of my health care system. There was no immediate improvement detectable, rather increased sweating at night, increased burning in my right inguinal area, prostate pain, and extreme fatigue. However, this receded eventually and I started to feel fitter in the mornings, which is the worst time of day in untreated condition. After one month I finally obtained 3M U.I./day penicillin from my GP, who is supporting me in spite of the negative feedback from the infectiologist. I am now on penicillin since one month, increasing the dosage to 4.5M U.I/day. During the last two weeks I was able to take up running again, my general state of health slowly improving. Pain in my liver and right inguinal area is almost gone, only some occasional burning. This antibiotics regimen has no side effects for me and barely affects my digestion. I dont believe that this will be my 'cure' but just with penicillin I regain >80% of my health/life again and this is a regimen I might be able to continue forever. Yesterday I had three ejaculations, today I woke up with a headache that vanished after half an hour and I felt energetic. I was even able to go for a run. For me, antibiotics are a testable (blood test) and reproducible antagonist to whatever causes my POIS.

Most likely other cases have other causes, and antibiotics should not be taken lightly, especially having no diagnosis. However, if any of you ever come to a point where you cant take it any more and consider life changing choices like animus and myself, I urge you to find a doc who is willing to test an antibiotic regimen first. It does not have to be a combined hard core therapy, I had good results with either 200mg Minocyclin or 4.5M U.I. penicilin (phenoxymethylpenicillin), NOT to be combined! The 'stuffed head' feeling vanished with Minocyclin within 48h. In my case penicillin has almost no side effects, Minocyclin caused some nausea and you cannot go out in the sun. If you try anything in this direction and it gets worse for some weeks, especially night sweats, swollen lymph nodes etc, that is a good sign. Dont do anything without proper medical supervision and regular check-ups!

If anybody here ever tries either antibiotic regimens or the opposite, immune suppression, please let me know!

eur79m

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Re: Infectious Causes and Treatments
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2016, 06:45:58 PM »
A further update on my 'POIS' condition that I am ever more convinced is caused by a chronic bacterial infection in my case.

I am still being denied any direct diagnostics that could potentially validate my chronic bacterial infection theory, and I am still being told by infectiologists that a chronic bacterial infection would be 'extremely unlikely' or even impossible. Clinical evidence however strongly supports the theory and so far there has not been ONE piece of evidence that would be inconsistent with a bacterial vector as causative agent. I thus continue to rely on research relating to the domains of lyme borreliosis, chronic fatigue syndrome, and chlamydia pneumonia, since the established symptoms and treatments for these cases seem to be most closely related to my situation... except for the POIS aspect of my condition.

As detailed previously I was on a regimen of oral Penicillin for several months that had almost no side effects and improved my condition substantially. However, oral Penicillin has a very short half-time in your body and most of it is excreted rapidly. Thus, very high doses have to be taken several times a day and still the effective serum Penicillin level will be fluctuating wildly. In a previous post I probably described that after my first surgery I was completely symptom free for 48h post-surgery, until the first ejaculation, while not being on any medication. During surgery I did receive Penicillin IV which could be the cause for the temporary remission, I was however denied my requests to test this hypothesis. During my initial foray into combined antibiotic regimens as recommended for lyme borreliosis, I did receive one month of daily ceftriaxon IV, which should be more effective than basic penicillin. It did show some positive effects but no complete remission and the IV treatment was unsustainable long term.

I did however come across two old (1990s) case reports of borreliosis patients that did not respond to prior antibiotic regimens but were successfully treated with long term Penicillin G (intra muscular). Penicillin G (im) is absorbed slowly by your body and thus long term (weeks) sustained (low) serum levels can be achieved. In borreliosis literature it is hypothesized that a sustained (>72h) Penicillin level could be effective against spirochetes (the class of bacteria causing lyme borreliosis). I found further case reports of other patients online, that often had not received a proven diagnosis but instead classified as CFS or lyme borreliosis based on symptoms, who were (more or less successfuly) following long term Penicillin G (im) regimens. I thus set out to test Penicillin G (im) over xmas as a potential long-term treatment.

Even so Penicillin G is the oldest antibiotic, well understood, easy to produce and patent free, there are actually supply issues in several European countries. There are generally two different kinds of packaging, either as a pre-mixed solution including the analgesic Lidocain, which makes the injection less painful, or as a dry powder that has to be mixed with a solvent prior to injection. In Germany Pendysin is the powdered version but currently not available, only the pre-mixed forumlation Tardocillin could be obtained. In Switzerland no Penicillin G (im) formulation is approved for sale and has to be imported. In France it is called Extencillin, I am not sure about format and availablity. In Spain there is Benzetacil as powder and solvent. In the U.S. there is Bicillin-LA as the pre-mixed version with an analgesic, as far as I know it is however prohibitively expensive.

Initially I obtained 6 shots of Tardocillin 1.2M in Germany and received dorso gluteal i.m. injections every second day over xmas. Until the day of the first injection I was still taking oral Penicillin V but the improvement of my condition after the second injection was substantial. The injections themselves were not painful at all, due to the analgesic but the day after an injection I could barely walk due to pain. My general health status was however better than any day during the last five years! I decided to obtain Benzetacil 2.4M from Spain, where 100 packages can be obtained for as low as 180EUR. I had a prescription from another European country and had somebody buy 100 injections locally in Spain and post them in a standard package to another EU country. All-in I paid 300EUR for 100 injections incl shipment. According to Burrascano, Board Member of the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society, a treatment plan for lyme borreliosis with Penicillin G (im) would consist of 3-4x weekly 1.2M injections. Since every injection is a risk and I determined over xmas that I would not be able to continue i.m. injections every second day long-term, I settled on 2.4M Benzetacil twice a week. The injection is rather painful but the following day I have less pain than after the pre-mixed Tardocillin, which contained an analgesic. This has been confirmed by other patients online. I believe the pain difference the following day to be due to the speed with which the injection has been given. Due to the analgesic contained in Tardocillin the injection is completely painless and was performed within <2min. With Benzetacil the injection takes me more than 6min due to pain, which probably puts less strain on the muscle that has to absorb the injection. I had the first injection performed by my doctor, the second injection I gave myself under doctor supervision. It is not easy but possible, and I have now been performing the ventro gluteal i.m. injection of 2.4M (6-8ml) Penicillin G for 1.5 months myself, without any outside help.

Mid January 2016 I discontinued oral Penicillin V that I had been taking again after I finished the Tardocillin injections. Within two weeks my health worsened substantially, I had severe headaches and all general POIS symptoms. After one ejaculation I developed a 38.4C fever, shivering, like a hard-core flu within minutes. I could not eat, was almost too weak to walk and could not sleep the whole night due to fever, sweating, headaches and shivers/chills. The next day the hard-core flu symptoms receded and I was just left in the usual POIS state. This all changed when the Benzetazil package from Spain arrived. Since beginning of February 2016 I have now been giving myself 2.4M Penicillin G (im) shots twice a week and my health improvement is substantial. No more headaches, no 'foggy head', only minor exhaustion post ejaculation for one day. This has not come about from one day to the next, instead after the first injections some symptoms even worsened, with substantial night sweats and a different kind of headache. Now I however feel to be on a long term track of recovery... whatever it is that is causing my POIS, Lyme Borreliosis or anything else, Penicillin G (im) does counteract it and keeps it in check. I am still far from complete remission, if that can be ever achieved, but >80% improvement in symptoms and well being, continuously, is worth a lot, and it only seems to be getting better. I can start living again...

Even so nobody else on this forum seems to suspect a chronic bacterial infection as the causative POIS agent as I believe it to be in my case, I post my experience here to make it available to anybody who could potentially profit from it. I am extremely grateful for other case reports that I have found on other forums and blogs from others who have been suffering of similar symptoms, with varying 'diagnoses' (CFS, lyme, etc), and the often experimental treatments they described. Without them I would not have come up with this course of treatment, not known where to procure the antibiotics, and not dared to give myself regular i.m. injections. I thus hope that my experience be of help for others.

Going less Crazy

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Re: Infectious Causes and Treatments
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2016, 02:53:01 AM »
That's great if it's helping you.  I would only go this route if i find out you completely stopped taking antibiotics and than you were POIS free.  Otherwise, I believe the anti pois feeling you have to be a cause of the medication, perhaps screwing with your immune system so POIS is lessened.  I don't see how Lyme or anything can react and cause POIS but than bounce back once you take meds and than POIS is lessened.  Just doesn't make sense from what I understand.  Infections shouldn't react to orgasms.

Bare with me im on my phone so this response is just what I took from a quick full look at your post.

So until you stop taking antibiotics and are POIS free than I would take your post with more seriousness.  For now I will stick to my diet.  Antibiotics can really screw with you.  I honeatly cant take them.  Feels like im  taking a stimulant, but im a highly sensitive person especially to caffeine. 

Tho I've always wondered if my food intolerances were a result of some infection, but I highly doubt it
  Did you have a rash or fever or pain or other flu like feelings before POIS? I didnt.

GL on your POIS journey.
My POIS managed with Diet (@ diet that 100% manages my pois)Believe my POIS stems from inflammation in the gut. O = neuro POIS from inflammation from the gut

supps: microdose zyrtec if needed for food sens. ibuprofen for infl. as needed. Melatonin as needed. Big Pinch Black cumin  seeds once daily

berlin1984

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Re: Infectious Causes and Treatments
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2020, 01:44:34 PM »
hi eur79m,
It's some years later now and I've seen several threads by now that suggest a combination of chronic infection (possibly combined with genetics or gut disbiosis).
What's your health state now in 2020?
thank you

hapl

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Re: Infectious Causes and Treatments
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2020, 12:39:49 PM »
Also, with some of the Covid research showing that some drugs have antiviral effects as well. I improved whenever I took Zithro, but then only up to a point. When I stopped Zithro, symptoms returned. Doctors told me it was just the anti-inflammatory effect of Zithro and couldn't be related to any bacterial infection. But now hearing that Zithro, Ivermectin, etc - might all have significant antiviral effects, it makes me question what I was told for years about antibiotics. (Both Zithro and Doxy helped me, but both of them stopped working after awhile).

Hopeoneday

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Re: Infectious Causes and Treatments
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2021, 05:57:38 PM »
We must make a tread about how meny poisers did tryed antibiotics like
amoxycycline.

Member eur79m did a litle science for us...
Dr-pois.

eur79m

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Re: Infectious Causes and Treatments
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2022, 03:29:51 AM »
hi eur79m,
It's some years later now and I've seen several threads by now that suggest a combination of chronic infection (possibly combined with genetics or gut disbiosis).
What's your health state now in 2020?
thank you

Just a short summary from my side how things have developed.

I followed the Penicillin (im) regime for a while and things were the best they have ever been in years. I could do sports again and some days I woke up and just felt great (normal). However, the 2x week intra muscular injection regimen is not well tolerated long term. Penicillin (im) is absorbed very slowly by the body, which is generally a good thing. I was however only using the same two injection sites, and that did not work out well. Actually kind of 'depot' bubbles of Penicillin developed in the injection site muscle, which could have led to severe consequences (necrosis). I was lucky, spotted it early enough, had an ultra sound done on the injection site where the penicillin 'bubble' could be visualized. I had the penicillin liquid sucked out with a syringe and my body recovered but I was obviously lucky.

The problem now was that the only prove treatment regiment was impossible to continue :( I thus switched to high dose oral Penicillin, which kind of helped but not nearly as well as the intra muscular injections. At the same time it messes with your digestion etc and I believe it could well be long term harmful to your digestive system in the doses that I was taking. I was thus trying to wean off it which initially didnt work. My symptoms returned...

However, eventually I realized that in very warm conditions I felt substantially better. Whenever I traveled to warm countries I could stop taking Penicillin. After I returned home I always tried to stay off it but after some weeks symptoms got so bad again that I had to re-start taking Penicillin.

Eventually I did manage to stay off it and it stayed OK (40-60% symptoms only) for several years. I started a regular sauna regimen, which seemed to help. Since last year things are getting worse again... I don't want to take Penicillin orally since I had the feeling it was really bad for my digestive tract, I cannot take it intra muscular for a prolonged time and might have damaged the injection sites anyways. My preferred route would be to try Penicillin with sub-cutaneous injections, which is basically practiced nowhere but in the veterinary space. Thats where I am at right now, don't know how to proceed from here. It's a f*cked up situation, I know there is a very effective treatment for me, it just seems to be impossible to get the active agent (Penicillin) into my body without harming myself.

During COVID I also tried Ivermectin, not because I had any serious expectations, just because it is an anti-parasitic drug and if I had some chronic (non-bacterial) parasitic infection it would be worth a shot. It had absolutely no discernible effect, luckily also no negative side effect. At least now I am de-wormed ;)

Whatever I have seems to be different from the general POIS symptomatic described by others. However, if you do want to test some things I did, here are some recommendations:

- DON'T do any surgical interventions BEFORE trying both immunosuppressants (Prednisolone) and antibiotics, to see if either has any negative / positive effect on your symptoms. That might indicate that e.g. an extremely painful testicle is not the cause of your systemic symptoms but a just a symptom itself of another underlying cause (that might be modulated by antibiotics / immunosuppressants).

- Prednisolone can have dangerous side effects and cannot just be started and stopped. This has to be done under medical supervision. I would only do it if the supervising doctor agrees BEFORE the immunosuppression to provide you with antibiotics, should your symptoms worsen. I was in a really bad state after five days of Prednisolone. I believe I took Tetracycline right after and it did the trick but would only recommend Penicillin now. See below.

- If you want to try the antibiotic route, Penicillin is cheap, is generally well tolerated, little short term side effects, and is very cheap. I would not advise the 'harder stuff' like amoxicillin etc. My hard core antibiotics regimen did show some positive effects however the side effects were substantial and these can only be tolerated on a short term basis. Penicillin for me is the only active agent that seems to have long term potential even to cure me. Trying it at least shouldn't do much damage.

If anyone else has any success with Penicillin or other antibiotics please message me. As far as I am aware I am still the only case with this specific symptom / effective treatment combination.

hapl

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Re: Infectious Causes and Treatments
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2022, 08:56:06 PM »
I've had moderate short term success with antibiotics - doxycyline, zithro, amoxicillin, etc. But obviously some bad side effects if you use them long term. My health is worse these days, but before it would improve my health quickly, then my health would plateau and start to slide backward.

Progecitor

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Re: Infectious Causes and Treatments
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2022, 02:16:42 AM »
Hi eur79m!

Based on some circumstantial evidence I think you should give some consideration to androgen receptor (AR) antagonism (an). You said that both Amoxicillin and Penicillin were really effective for you. According to a modern molecular docking study both actually have an antagonistic effect on AR. Of course this alone doesn’t prove anything, however other members also had success with drugs that may have such a property.

You can find other possible AR antagonists in this list. (an) means antagonistic action and there are some mixed agonist/antagonists as well.

Artemether AR; ERB -8.7(an); -9.6
Naftifine AR; ERB -8.7(an); -9.5
Trihexyphenidyl AR; ERB -9.0(an); -9.3
Carbamazepine AR; ERa; ERB -8.8(an); -9.6; -9.8(an)
Cinacalcet AR; ERa; ERB; TRa -8.5(an); -10.0; -9.7 and -9.2(an); -10.3
Cyclobenzaprine AR; ERa; ERB -8.6(an); -9.9; -9.6(an)
Hydromorphone AR; ERa; ERB -9.2(an); -9.8; -9.4 and -9.5(an)
Levorphanol AR; ERa; ERB -9.1 and -8.9(an); -9.5; -9.5 and -9.1(an
Mefloquine AR; ERB; TRa -9.8(an); -9.4(an); -10.5
Oxymorphone AR; ERB -9.0(an); -9.4 and -9.2(an)
Amoxicillin AR -8.5(an)
Cocaine AR -8.4(an)
Codeine AR -9.1 and -8.7(an)
Fluoxetine AR -8.5(an)
Naltrexone AR -8.7(an)
Penicillin g/benzylpenicillin AR -8.5(an)
Piroxicam AR -9.3 and -9.0(an)
Vortioxetine AR -8.5(an)
https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/25/7/1616/htm

You could also check out SARMs generally.

Hi Cloud!

Currently I am mostly looking into SERMs as several of them (e.g. resveratrol, ecdysterone, etc.) were really beneficial for me. I also had success with testosterone boosters and several of them may be considered SARMs (e.g. maca, tribulus, tongkat ali). Interestingly though I had at least partial success with some AR antagonists as well (e.g. indole-3-carbinol, bakuchiol, lavender). These are also SERMs which makes me think that this aspect is more important for me. Nevertheless as Ostarine (aka Enobosarm) is indicated for testosterone deficiency it may be possible that you would have success with the aforementioned testosterone boosters.

Ostarine is indicated for muscle wasting disease and testosterone deficiency.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Scott-Lusher/publication/6964168_Non-Steroidal_Steroid_Receptor_Modulators/links/0046351d542dfc2d94000000/Non-Steroidal-Steroid-Receptor-Modulators.pdf

Another study on SERMs and SARMs.
https://sci-hub.se/https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-18729-7_11

I hope this helps!

In view of this SERMs and ERbeta agonists may also modulate AR.
The most significant findings were that ERbeta down-regulates androgen receptor (AR) signaling and up-regulates the tumor suppressor phosphatase and tensin homolog (PTEN). The role of ERbeta in opposing AR signaling, proliferation, and inflammation suggests that ERbeta-selective agonists may be used to prevent progression of prostate cancer, prevent fibrosis and development of benign prostatic hyperplasia, and treat prostatitis.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1702211114

A role for a past or ongoing infection is still possible through LPS.
Taken together, our results suggest that LPS impairs steroidogenesis and ROS metabolism and induces PPAR transcriptional activity to disturb estrogen/androgen receptor expression in testicular cells.
https://sci-hub.se/https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11033-019-05196-6

Some other possible AR antagonists:

It is the hope in the next few years such SARMs could be developed for laboratory and preclinical tests. However, recent findings showed that 3,3'-diindolylmethane (DIM), a primary digestive derivative of indole-3-carbinol, a major active compound in cruciferous vegetables, exhibits AR antagonist activity by competing DHT binding to the receptor and inhibiting DHT induced cell proliferation in PCa cells. It has been claimed that DIM is the first example of a pure AR antagonist from plants. Whether the anti-AR activity of DIM represents a SARM remains to be further determined. Interestingly, indole-3-carbinol as the parent compound of DIM may not be an AR antagonist but can inhibit AR expression, therefore affects AR’s function. In fact there are many plant flavonoids like quercetin, resveratrol, genistein, sylimarin, silybinin, green tea polyphenols, as well as vitamin C, selenium and fish oils that show their ability to repress the expression and/or function of the AR but not a direct antagonist in androgen responsive PCa cells.
https://sci-hub.se/https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/ccdt/2007/00000007/00000007/art00010

These changes were not observed with Flutamide (Flut, AR antagonist).
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajplung.00441.2020

The AR antagonist Bicalutamide did not block DHT’s ability to reduce COX-2.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0039128X12001390

O-DMA and enterolactone were the only 2 compounds tested to have AR antagonistic activity. However, a study in yeast suggested that O-DMA may bind to but not transactivate AR.
https://academic.oup.com/advances/article/2/4/317/4591502?login=true

This activity may be due to berberine inhibiting cell proliferation in two ways (as an AR antagonist and by blocking intratumoral steroidogenesis) and the additional hydrophobic interaction with the SP2 pocket amino acid residue.
https://sci-hub.se/https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.jmedchem.9b02138
The cause is probably the senescence of sexual organs and resultant inducible SASP, which also acts as a kind of non-diabetic metabolic syndrome.

Hopeoneday

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Re: Infectious Causes and Treatments
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2023, 12:19:51 PM »
Dr-pois.