POISCENTER
POIS Cause/Treatment Discussions => Hormonal Causes and Treatments => Topic started by: BoneBroth on May 14, 2019, 12:41:26 PM
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Has anyone investigated a cortisol/aldesterone deficiency hypothesis? According to Dr Hertoge cortiosol plays an enormous important role as a anti-inflammation substance and lack of it may cause brain fog/brain inflammation and allergies. Low adrenal function (heading towards Addisson disease) due to for example stress factors will cause low cortisol. Inflammation seems to be a key factor in POIS and Dr Hertoghe has some intresting suggestions on how to lower inflammation in his article:
https://www.thetownsendletter.com/414-cortisol-deficiency-fatigue-hertoghe-cravings-stress?rq=brain%20inflammation
Please share your comments!
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Mine is completely normal: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e0PaO53o6DOgrVA4LJh1Z46ZoaInXa38/view?usp=drivesdk
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My cortisol is too high. It could be one of the reasons why my testosterone is too low. On the blood results topic there were others who have high cortisol.
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Do you recognice any of the symptos of hight cortisol? I have those marked with X. Strangly I dont know if I have low or hight. I have to test the levels somehow.
- weight gain, mostly around the midsection (X) and upper back
- weight gain and rounding of the face
- acne and skin problems (X)
- thinning skin
- easy bruising (X)
- flushed face
- slowed healing (X)
- muscle weakness
- severe fatigue
- irritability (X)
- difficulty concentrating (X)
- high blood pressure (I have low)
- headache (X)
- mood swings
- increases anxiety
- increase urination
- higher suceptibility to infections (X)
- osteoporosis
- excessive thirst
https://draxe.com/cortisol-levels/
https://www.healthline.com/health/high-cortisol-symptoms#symptoms
Signs of low cortisol
- Extreme fatigue
- Weight loss and decreased appetite
- Darkening of your skin (hyperpigmentation) (X)
- Low blood pressure, even fainting (X)
- Salt craving
- Low blood sugar (hypoglycemia)
- Nausea, diarrhea or vomiting (gastrointestinal symptoms) (X)
- Abdominal pain (X)
- Muscle or joint pains (X)
- Irritability (X)
- Depression or other behavioral symptoms
- Body hair loss or sexual dysfunction in women
- hollow face
- pigmented spots on the face (X)
- conjunctivitis (X, on POIS)
- dark circles under the eyes
- and wet palms (X, on POIS)
- lack of energy
- flu-like feelings
- a lower capacity to react well to stress (X)
- foggy feeling in the head (X)
https://www.thetownsendletter.com/414-cortisol-deficiency-fatigue-hertoghe-cravings-stress?rq=brain%20inflammation
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/addisons-disease/symptoms-causes/syc-20350293
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I have these symptoms:
acne and skin problems
- thinning skin
- muscle weakness
- severe fatigue
- irritability
- difficulty concentrating
- headache
- mood swings
- increases anxiety
- increase urination
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Yes, it seems like you have too much. Finally too much cortisol would probably wear out the adrenals and suddenly you have to llittle cortisol. Have you ben exposed to much stress?
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Yes, it seems like you have too much. Finally too much cortisol would probably wear out the adrenals and suddenly you have to llittle cortisol. Have you ben exposed to much stress?
I do not have stress from work or personal issuses. Only stress from being sick, POIS and bad sleep.
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But earlier in life? Before you developed POIS?
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No I did not had a lot of stress before POIS.
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In your previous life then??? lol
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;D
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How about this therory. In POIS you are affected by inflammatory hormones that inflame the body tissue and the brain. So what does the body do in an inflammated state? It steps up the cortisol production to lower the inflammation. That means that you are exposed to higher cortisol levels every time you get POIS without any stress factor involved. In time the cortisol recepters get overstimulated and stops responding to the cortisol. You will end up with a cortisol resistance (medical name: glucocorticoids resistance). That means the inflammatory symptoms gets worse even if your cortisol levels are normal because the cortisol cannot enter the cells normaly. If you also are exposed to stress you will end up with even more cortisol in your blood. The symptoms of low and hight cortisol is much the same, because of this cortisol resiscance. I drew this conclusion when listening to Dr Eric Berg here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhXyJCa_b-k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ugn924mFCo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsoYREVnVH8
So what is the sollution? Well if the cause is not stress but an excess/imbalance of another hormone (maybe prolactin/estrogen etc) then it might not seem to be a sollution just to practice stress releasing techniques in that sence, but lowering stress could have good effects on over all health and strengthen the process of removing exess of hormones in the bloodsystem.
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Why not but long abstinence time might improve cortisol resistance ?
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Absolutely! The question is how long time is needed. For most people here it takes about a week to recover from a POIS. But to recover the receptors might take much longer then that. If you have NE one time a week or more often, they might never have time to recover.
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Very interesting. I'm myself very subject to all kinds of inflammations, mainly tendinitises of all kinds (wrist, thumb, shoulder, adductors) that take disproportionate amounts of time to get healed.
Maybe others can confirm bad recovery from inflammation?
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See also part 2 of Dr Hertoghes article in Townsend letter with suggestions on how to increase cortisol leveles, naturally and with cortisol supplementation:
https://www.thetownsendletter.com/4156-cortisol-deficiency-hertoghe-dhea-treatment
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There is no evidence of low cortisol in poisers.
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Wow. Where does that come from, Muon?
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Wow. Where does that come from, Muon?
What do you mean? I have said that because there are a bunch of members who have been tested for cortisol. A few of them have slightly elevated levels instead of low but not sufficient in numbers to make the link with POIS.
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My cortisol has been checked twice. Both times it was way too high.
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Wow. Where does that come from, Muon?
What do you mean? I have said that because there are a bunch of members who have been tested for cortisol. A few of them have slightly elevated levels instead of low but not sufficient in numbers to make the link with POIS.
Don’t take it wrong. I was surprised w/your statement. Then curious what you based it on. Thx for explaining, I hadn’t kept up with cortisol info here.
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No problem Demografx.
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I don't think that you got my point. During POIS there is an secretion of inflammatory substances (probably hormones). And when the body is inflamed the cortisol level will go up to restore the body to a non-inflammatory state. Hence you might (in best case) have a higher cortisol level when tested during a POIS week or more. However not hight enougt! During all stresses the cortisol levels skyrock to battle the inflammation. The extra storage of cortisol in the adrenals might not be hight enought in POIS'ers and thats why they are suffering in the inflammation state for so long time. There is not enought cortisol storage in the adrenal glands and they cannot produce enought of it on-the-fly! Thats why some POIS'ers get better when they eat a lot of eggs (upp to 10 a day or more) - eggs (raw or softboiled) is one of the best sources for the raw material for making cortisol - fat and protein! And those who get better with hard exercise that is good for long term adrenal function and cortisol levels, and those who meditate (also good for cortisol levels), and even those who make it out with coffee that increases the cortisol (though coffee could weaken the adrenals in the long term) etcetera. Dr Hertoghe sais that you can even make a flu dissapear when taking cortisol supplements on the first signs of breakout. He also emphasis that cortisol must be secreted (or supplemented) together with equal amounts of DHEA not to cause damage. Have anyone tryed taking cortisol supplements during POIS?
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Your post is intriguing, I tend to agree. This has been my observation that most folks (including careless docs) confuse hormonal levels as high and low while not realizing that their conclusion might be the opposite from actual situation/truth. For e.g. cholesterol and healthy fats, are the mother of all hormones, and just because they are "associated" with diseases does not mean cholesterol is bad and fats. In fact truth might be the exact opposite.
I don't think that you got my point. During POIS there is an secretion of inflammatory substances (probably hormones). And when the body is inflamed the cortisol level will go up to restore the body to a non-imflammatory state. Hence you might (in best case) have a higher cortisol level when tested during a POIS week or more. However not hight enougt! During all stresses the cortisol levels skyrock to battle the inflammation. The extra storage of cortisol in the adrenals might not be hight enought in POIS'ers and thats why they are suffering in the inflammatgion state for so long time. There is not enought cortisol! No punch in the adrenal glands! Thats why some POIS'ers get better when they eat a lot of eggs (upp to 10 a day day or more) - eggs is one of the best sources for the raw material for making cortisol - fat and protein! And those who get better with hard exercise that is good for long term adrenal function and cortisol levels, and those who meditate (also good for cortisol levels), and even those who make it out with coffee that increases the cortisol (though coffee could weaken the adrenals in the long term) etcetera. Dr Hertoghe sais that you can even make a flu dissapear when taking cortisol supplements on the first signs of breakout. He also emphasis that cortisol must be secreted (or supplemented) together with equal amounts of DHEA not to cause damage. Have anyone tryed taking cortisol supplements during POIS?
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The claim that dietary colesterol is bad for health is since long scientifically debunked (though yet too many doctors hold on to old school science). Cholesterol is essential for health (specific hormon production) in a western-standard-lifestyle (human fruitivores might though get a long with minimum cholesterol since their metabolism is optimized to use the little they get from fruits, which might be the most optimal human diet, provided the fruits are grown in mineral rich soils and do not contain pesticides)! It is the opposite. Cholesterol lowering drugs are causing more heart attacks then they are preventing. Its not the cholesterol that damage the blood vessels, it's the inflammation that is caused by wrong diet - too much carbohydrates/sugar and to little antioxidants (mainly vitamin C). Arteriosclerosis is bascically old classic scurvy (in an early state) inside your blood vessels! Cholesterol is the bodys bandage-for-the-wounds. Finally the bandage becomes too thick and then the bandage got the blame instead of the cause of the underlaying wound. Stupid doctors!
Anyway this low-colesterol theory might only explain the effects of POIS and what to do to relieve symptoms, not why it started from the beginning. Even if our adrenals are "live and kicking", pumping out huge amounts of cortisol (and the simultaneous important anabolic hormones like DHEA) to keep inflammation down, there is still a continus tearing battle in our bodies between the effects of inflammatory and non-inflammatory substances, and that might be hard on the body in the long run.
So how do we test this? Well for you who live in USA it's easy. Cortisol is an over-the-counter drug with amounts similar to Dr Hertoghes recommendations (read carefully his advice on how to safe administer orally cortisol in his articles above). For us who live in Europe it might be harder. Here cortisol is a prescription drug and I have to import it. I dont know if it will be seized in customs! Just applying his advice on how to naturally increase the cortisol levels might do some good but does not seem to be enought for most people.
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My brother got elevated Lp-PLA2 activity (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2af7202xa3gqpiw/AACrvZK9pbVvp0kUXOAO1NCba?dl=0&preview=Bro+1-5+BDNF%2BCD57%2BGRactivity%2BLP_PLA2%2BCOMT(GENTEST).pdf) which is related to Atherosclerosis/endothelial inflammation. POIS might invoke an inflammatory response in the endothelium. Other molecules that can be investigated are ICAM, VCAM, selectins, Heparanase (http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/107/9/3609.short?sso-checked=true) and more.
First step is to find a (inflammatory) marker in POIS. This probably isn't a cause but you can work your way backwards. We can organize group testing for a bunch of parameters. The only thing you will need is money. Testkits cost 500 to a few thousand dollars and these have room for multiple samples per patient. It can be done.
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Thanks, BoneBroth
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Its not the cholesterol that damage the blood vessels, it's the inflammation that is caused by wrong diet - too much carbohydrates/sugar and to little antioxidants (mainly vitamin C). Arteriosclerosis is bascically old classic scurvy (in an early state) inside your blood vessels!
Or it's an autoimmune disease (POIS?) damaging blood vessels and causing havoc:
Autoimmune Diseases and Atherosclerosis: The Inflammatory Connection (https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/cir/2012/00000008/00000004/art00005#)
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Yes, arteriosclerosis as an endemic disease is mainly caused by sugar, bad carbohydrates and heated fats but the inflammation that comes from POIS is much stronger. However between POIS periods the body heals itself and returns to normal state so it might not cause arteriosclerosis in the long run. Of course you can be exposed to both at the same time. Bad carbohydrates (bread, pasta, pizza, wheat, non sprouted cereals, corn, sugar, sweet fruits etcetera) should always be avoided as well as fried food/burnt animal fat and cooking with vegetable oils as they too causes free radical damage on blood vessels.
There was a guy here suggesting that cortisol was the cause of pois before, his posts were intresting. Trying to find it again..
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BoneBroth, thank you very much for the insights on cortisol, I find them very intriguing. Would you agree with the following statement:
"After ejaculation, normal people have their cortisol go up, while for us, it goes unfortunately DOWN." Did I understand you correctly - you would agree with this statement and you would say that cortisol helps brings the body to normal state.
I always recall an instance when, during serious POIS, I saw a few kids in a village bringing a horse. I joked and asked if they would let me ride the horse. Surprisingly, they agreed. I did some horse riding, first time in my life, not properly, with kids overseeing me. Lots of stress. And my POIS cycle stopped (it was supposed to stop in a few more days). Would you explain this anecdote by saying that cortisol level raised and managed the orgasm-induced inflammation?
Finally, did you find the posts you were referring to? I am working on understanding cortisol and POIS.
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BoneBroth, thank you very much for the insights on cortisol, I find them very intriguing. Would you agree with the following statement:
"After ejaculation, normal people have their cortisol go up, while for us, it goes unfortunately DOWN." Did I understand you correctly - you would agree with this statement and you would say that cortisol helps brings the body to normal state.
I always recall an instance when, during serious POIS, I saw a few kids in a village bringing a horse. I joked and asked if they would let me ride the horse. Surprisingly, they agreed. I did some horse riding, first time in my life, not properly, with kids overseeing me. Lots of stress. And my POIS cycle stopped (it was supposed to stop in a few more days). Would you explain this anecdote by saying that cortisol level raised and managed the orgasm-induced inflammation?
Finally, did you find the posts you were referring to? I am working on understanding cortisol and POIS.
Do we have some proof that cortisol go down after ejaculation? Do anyone have any testresults of this? If so, I would say that cortisol IS needed after ejaculation (perhaps more for POISers then others) and the little that is still in store in the adrenals is consumed quickly.
Well your anecdote kind of condradicts the first statement. If you don't have enought of cortisol it could not raise much.
Nope, havn't found that post yet, but I remember that the point was that cortisol causes POIS, but that migh be a misunderstanding by the user who wrote it.
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No, it would be hard to test how and if cortisol goes up or down for us. Even if one of us checks cortisol right before and right after orgasm, and if we we notice it goes up, maybe it doesn't go up sufficiently. Let's say it goes up right as much as it does for healthy people. Then maybe it doesn't go up at the right time - 10 seconds, or 1 minute, or 10 minutes after orgasm? No way to test this on our own, this can only be examined in a lab in a controlled experiment. This can be tested if for a healthy reference group and for us, cortisol is measure before O, as well as specific times after O: a few seconds, a few minutes, one hour later, one day later, two days later. My speculation is that for us, it doesn't go up as it should be (or at least not enough up).
No, the horse anecdote doesn't contradict - rather supports - the speculation that we POISers don't get enough cortisol after ejaculation. I am not saying that we are incapable of producing cortisol whatsoever. In fact, my POIS that week would be due to low cortisol, but then the horse ride triggered its release, hence the quick recovery with the horse ride.
I am not saying cortisol is the route cause. I am only saying that cortisol is involved.
The reason I am thinking about cortisol is that I am analyzing the mercury toxicity hypothesis proposed on this forum. I've read that after physical exercise, mercury toxic people have cortisol levels go down while healthy people have them go up, and , as a result, mercury toxic people have fatigue after more intense physical exercise. I view orgasm and physical exercise in parallel here, since I get POIS symptoms also after more intense physical activity.
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Yes I agree it would be difficult to make a complete "cortisol curve" minutes and hours after O. However low cortisol is assosiated with low adremal function, and there is many ways to test that condition. One test you can even do at home for free - The Ragland's sign or blood pressure test. You will need a blood pressure kit. Take your blood pressure while sitting, then stand up and take your blood pressure again. The top number, (systolic) should have gone up by 8 to 10 mm. If this number dropped instead of rising, you more than likely have adrenal fatigue. My blood pressue was falling upon standing. Try it and post it!
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I've done in fact an "ECG stress test" - it's like the standard ECG but performed as I walk along a treadmill. I start from rest, then the treadmill starts moving, then the incline increases (HR as well), more and more, and, finally, they measure how fast I recover and go back down to normal HR as I am in rest. The test, the cardiologist said, was completely normal for me.
But I think the problem with cortisol not going the right direction would occur only after intense rather than moderate physical exercise. Based on this, I would expect the chair experiment to turn out normal.
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Try it!
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How To Replace Cortisol. An Ultimate Guide. (https://thingsvarious.medium.com/cortisol-adrenals-af3ba8af54e8)
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How To Replace Cortisol. An Ultimate Guide. (https://thingsvarious.medium.com/cortisol-adrenals-af3ba8af54e8)
WOW! That's an amazing link. Thank you for posting.
I've since started to experiment with licorice throat candy (https://www.ricola.com/de-de/produkte/lakritz) (contains also other ingredients for menthol taste etc., also some known to influence hormones slightly) and I think I'm having some positive outcome.
I think it can improve fatigue/slugishness/morning weakness..
If you search the forum here, some other people have tried licorice too. EDIT: I created a licorice thread: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3621.msg37976#msg37976
(Note: On one day, I heart heart beating in the morning with a bit of anxiety, I guess I overdid it with the cortisol here by having 4 candy the day before.. felt like back in the day when I was still drinking alcohol. So yes, as the link you posted says, it's a dangerous hormone to experiment with)
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But remember that licororice and mint (Menthol is made synthetically or obtained from the oils of corn mint, peppermint) significant can decrease testosterone.
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Taking arginine and lysine together in equal amounts lowers cortisol in lab tests.