Author Topic: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?  (Read 53441 times)

kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
  • Scientist, Engineer, INTJ type
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2012, 12:28:59 PM »

Another [desensitization] risk that we haven't even touched on yet. What if we don't have an allergy to sperm? What if we don't have sperm antibodies in our system? What if skin prick tests aren't relevant. Maybe a negative reaction doesn't mean we are allergic and maybe no negative reaction doesn't mean we are not. What happens if we start introducing sperm to our bloodstream when we don't have antibodies?

We create antibodies, and then we create anti-bodies to those antibodies (which is desensitization), desensitizing ourselves to something we never had to start with, and creating an immunological battle within us that wasn't necessary to begin with..... on top of POIS!



This is Desensitization Major Risk #2 -  that of desensitization potentially creating yet a NEW autoimmune problem  -- in addition to POIS! - which we have not really addressed till now, so it's highlighted above (enlarged).

Thanks, Daveman!

That would be one good reason to have and be able to use an epi-pen :)

Daveman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1631
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2012, 04:09:53 PM »
Uuufff, that's an angle of all of this that I hadn't even grasped..... two-fold actually.

1) Not only that we MAY be creating an allergy that didn't previously exist, AND THEN developing an auto-immue response to it, but we could potentially cause our body to react to a much higher AND uncontrolled dose of the allergen merely by having an orgasm!! So potential for anaphylaxis merely by having an orgasm!

2) As part of their procedures and pre-testing allergists first define the allergen and determine the level of exposure to it during everyday living. Once it's defined they can administer the treatment with controlled doses so as to begin the desensitization. And they are present for the dangerous period just in case. I'm not sure that's really been done with semen. Semen has a number of components. Which is the allergen? As I understand it, THEY DON'T KNOW. Let's say we ARE allergic to sperm. Does desensitization with semen lead to creation of allergies to the other components? Shouldn't we be isolating the allergen?

AND, we are exposed to STRONG doses of the supposed allergen every time we ejaculate!

Epi-pens everyone!!








 
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 06:34:51 PM by demografx »
WITHOUT RESEARCH THERE WILL BE NO CURE!
Sessions 5 to 9 days, mostly Flu-like, joints, digestion problems, light cognitive.
Niacin has changed my lif though, now 1 day MAX.
Somewhere in this interaction with Niacin is the answer!

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2012, 04:24:14 PM »

This is all theory.
FACT: I have 70 % less symptoms.
FACT: I can have an O 3 or 4 times a week, without having big problems. Used to be once a month.


FACT: Currently, anaphylaxis leads to 500–1,000 deaths per year in the United States, 20 deaths per year in the United Kingdom, and 15 deaths per year in Australia.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphylaxis#section_8

« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 06:50:44 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2012, 04:42:59 PM »
So....maybe you will be lucky.

Big question: do we have enough SOLID RESEARCH EVIDENCE to indicate it's worth the risk?

My answer: no.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Ccconfucius

  • Guest
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2012, 07:57:50 PM »
I know that those of you who are "gung ho" on the desensitization program are not going to be convinced, and worse, will probably become alienated to our whole movement. But in private discussions it has been asked, "if you feel that there is such danger in this program, why are you supporting it on the forum?". It's all too political even legal!

Not gung ho for dessensitization but determined to get rid of pois. And at moment one of the few weapons to experiment with is dessensitization.  And i because we are willing to try dessensitization doesnt mean we going be alienated from the forums movement which is to solve pois through further reasearch.    

minus the sublingual experiments, which have very little backing because we are not sure if the semen is reaching the immune cells needed to start dessensitization, there not even ten people trying dessensitization and they have not be doing for the intended lenght.
And i dont think you know the total amount of official people dr waldinger and co doctors are treating.  We need to know their stories to get the full picture on dessensitization.   I wish dr waldinger will give us more information.


It is worth the risk because i dont think the risk is bad if dessenistization is done right.  The point of dessensitization is to reduce immune reaction so if we do build a new  immune reaction to a subtance theroectically that reaction should go down over the course of the program. And if that reaction were to occur it will have occured in the earlier stages.  And if increased reaction  was the problem every subsequent shot should become increasing painfully and in my case and vandemolens it is the opposite.      

Dessensitization is definately a theory and who knows if it is the all be all theory but every theory needs time and experiment.
Dessenistization should not be dismissed just yet it is still new theory in scientific terms.

Am all for reasearch but research takes time. And during that time what are my options.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 08:05:27 PM by CertainlyPOIS »

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2012, 08:19:07 PM »
Well stated, CertainlyPOIS!
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Vincent M

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 477
  • Physical overshadows cognitive symptoms. 10yrs.
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2012, 09:00:13 PM »
Personally I don't see the danger in the SLIT version of desens., seeing as during ejaculation you're exposed to pure semen anyway, but I can understand the concern. I swallowed pure semen almost every night for 3 months in my SLIT trial with no positive or negative effect, but everyone's body is different.

Incorrectly using an epi-pen sounds like it could be more dangerous than swallowing semen so my suggestion on this issue is maybe it'd be good to take some benadryl when you perform your desens as a small preventative measure in case anaphylaxis does occur.
Taking ginger tea, no wheat, fenugreek+green tea/garlic, saw palmetto, niacin, boswellia, huperzine, B complex and nutmeg. See my treatment summary post for more info: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=81.msg3513#msg3513

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2012, 09:19:56 PM »
Thanks, Vincent!
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Stef

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 377
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2012, 10:11:04 PM »
Personally I don't see the danger in the SLIT version of desens., seeing as during ejaculation you're exposed to pure semen anyway, but I can understand the concern. I swallowed pure semen almost every night for 3 months in my SLIT trial with no positive or negative effect, but everyone's body is different.

Incorrectly using an epi-pen sounds like it could be more dangerous than swallowing semen so my suggestion on this issue is maybe it'd be good to take some benadryl when you perform your desens as a small preventative measure in case anaphylaxis does occur.

VM and Everyone,

No -- using an epi-pen incorrectly is not dangerous.  It's actually very safe, very easy to self-administer, and a good physician will only prescribe one-two epi-pens at a time.  They have saved countless lives. Even people with serious heart conditions who also have severe allergies (like to shellfish, for example) are prescribed epi-pens -- and should always carry one with them.

I've seen one or two anaphylaxis episodes as a nurse -- neither patient lived through it.  ANAPHYLAXIS is a worst nightmare -- an immediate emergency tracheotomy is needed because the throat swells up, the blood pressure bottoms out -- every single second counts.  So -- if one has an epi-pen, those symptoms can be stopped in their tracks (most of the time) and a life can be saved.

SLIT therapy with any allergen -- if not done in the doc's office under very careful supervision -- can definitely, unequivocally be deadly. 

For those of you who are trying your own version of semen SLIT therapy -- I honestly doubt that you are accomplishing anything. (I don't mean to be at all disrespectful here.)  IF there is a component of semen that is causing POIS -- a true, bona fide allergist would isolate that component and administer it on its own, in slowly increasing dosages, under very cautious supervision. 

I think that simply diluting semen is not the same as real SLIT therapy -- because the person is receiving semen in total -- not the specific allergic component (if one exists) in increasingly therapeutic doses.

Stef

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2012, 11:07:41 PM »
Thank you, Stef!
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Daveman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1631
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2012, 06:57:09 AM »
I want to make a positive note!! Believe it or not.

I / we are NOT saying necessarily that sperm desensitization therapy for POIS is BS! Nor is it being said that the allergy theory will not be considered for research.
What is being said is that present research on this subject does not comply with minimums for standard allergy treatment and undocumented doubts leave very dangerous potential exposed.

The NORD MAC, who evaluate proposals and makes the final acceptation of candidates  is VERY experienced in dealing with rare disorders, they have faced conundrums (mysteries, challenges) far more complex than POIS. They focus on a methodology to positively determine what is going on. On some cases this may not mean an immanent solution, but a solid definition and a certain starting point.

We are probably far enough along (and I am sure they will see MOST of our findings) that a good starting point may well be more evident. BUT it is so important to know "what is going on". If we knew that now, we would have on tenth the problems we do now.

So no approach is closed, as none is assured. Certainly WE cannot make that decision, nor would want to. We cannot take the responsibility to decide what is the right path for research, for all we think we know. That's why we are paying the RIGHT people to do it.

WITHOUT RESEARCH THERE WILL BE NO CURE!
Sessions 5 to 9 days, mostly Flu-like, joints, digestion problems, light cognitive.
Niacin has changed my lif though, now 1 day MAX.
Somewhere in this interaction with Niacin is the answer!

LAPOISSE

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2012, 07:44:07 AM »
If anybody make an ANAPHYLAXIS someday, we'll be fixed about the allergy theory ; All we got today is skin reactions(my doc said maybe 70% of the normal population have a skin reaction to their own sperm that should'nt be injected in the skin) and few feelings of recovery ; Is there any way to monitor an allergic reaction without going as far as Anaphylaxis ?

For three reason, I think Allergy theory still could be the good one :
1.Several testimonies and notably the Animus story
2.Only theory wich fit with the fact that lot of us got symptoms just after arousal(sperm is not release but some components of the semen are : maybe we should look at them)
3. Since I know about Pois, I've been dramaticly reduce my O frequency...and I think the symptoms got worse....it's like having orgasm frequently was a kind of "auto desens" and the fact of avoiding them made me more sensitive.

Any ways, i'm pretty sure even if the cause is allergic there is consequences in hormones and neurotransmitters ; symptoms and cure reactions point that

It's pretty frustrating that after 10 years of investigation we are not even sure about the beginning of an explanation...

This will probably make yell people here but i'll have no problem to take the risk to definitly valid or invalid the allergy theory ; I'm pretty sure, if we got (under strong medical supervision) raising dose of semen and monitor the reactions(histamine level, physical reactions, etc) we'll have some tangible result, a real proof and something to start with....or we'll focus research in something else


kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
  • Scientist, Engineer, INTJ type
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2012, 08:46:37 AM »
If anybody make an ANAPHYLAXIS someday, we'll be fixed about the allergy theory ; All we got today is skin reactions(my doc said maybe 70% of the normal population have a skin reaction to their own sperm that should'nt be injected in the skin) and few feelings of recovery ; Is there any way to monitor an allergic reaction without going as far as Anaphylaxis ?

For three reason, I think Allergy theory still could be the good one :
1.Several testimonies and notably the Animus story
2.Only theory wich fit with the fact that lot of us got symptoms just after arousal(sperm is not release but some components of the semen are : maybe we should look at them)
3. Since I know about Pois, I've been dramaticly reduce my O frequency...and I think the symptoms got worse....it's like having orgasm frequently was a kind of "auto desens" and the fact of avoiding them made me more sensitive.

Any ways, i'm pretty sure even if the cause is allergic there is consequences in hormones and neurotransmitters ; symptoms and cure reactions point that

It's pretty frustrating that after 10 years of investigation we are not even sure about the beginning of an explanation...

This will probably make yell people here but i'll have no problem to take the risk to definitly valid or invalid the allergy theory ; I'm pretty sure, if we got (under strong medical supervision) raising dose of semen and monitor the reactions(histamine level, physical reactions, etc) we'll have some tangible result, a real proof and something to start with....or we'll focus research in something else


Histamine is released anyway as part of an O by mast cells in the genitals. It makes perfect sense why animus solution worked (even if it's very harsh) and that doesn't require anybody to have any allergy to seminal fluid.

I've seen posts saying that people have tried anti-histamines and they don't work on POIS. There are different kinds of histamine receptor and they could each cause different POIS symptoms. Rashes, itches, heart palpitations, stomach upset and serious cognition problems can all be caused by sets of H1, H2 and H3 histamine receptors.

Anti-histamines are designed to be receptor specific and modern anti-histamines are designed to have minimal crossing of the blood brain barrier (although some papers suggest it still happens). Therefore, taking zirtek or similar has NO CHANCE of making the cognitive symptoms of POIS go away and doesn't disprove the histamine theory at all.

It's entirely possible that some POIS sufferers have an allergic reaction to seminal fluid but we've no evidence it's actually taking place and how would we separate that from the normal histamine release at an orgasm?

For instance, I experience NO RASH WHATSOEVER on the point of my penis that has the most exposure to sperm whether I clean it well after an O or not. None.
Have any gay POIS sufferers shown allergy to their partner's sperm? I'm really interested to know.

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2012, 11:28:07 AM »
Thank you, LAPOISSE and kurtosis!
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Ccconfucius

  • Guest
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2012, 08:35:11 PM »
If anybody make an ANAPHYLAXIS someday, we'll be fixed about the allergy theory ; All we got today is skin reactions(my doc said maybe 70% of the normal population have a skin reaction to their own sperm that should'nt be injected in the skin) and few feelings of recovery ; Is there any way to monitor an allergic reaction without going as far as Anaphylaxis ?

For three reason, I think Allergy theory still could be the good one :
1.Several testimonies and notably the Animus story
2.Only theory wich fit with the fact that lot of us got symptoms just after arousal(sperm is not release but some components of the semen are : maybe we should look at them)
3. Since I know about Pois, I've been dramaticly reduce my O frequency...and I think the symptoms got worse....it's like having orgasm frequently was a kind of "auto desens" and the fact of avoiding them made me more sensitive.

Any ways, i'm pretty sure even if the cause is allergic there is consequences in hormones and neurotransmitters ; symptoms and cure reactions point that

It's pretty frustrating that after 10 years of investigation we are not even sure about the beginning of an explanation...

This will probably make yell people here but i'll have no problem to take the risk to definitly valid or invalid the allergy theory ; I'm pretty sure, if we got (under strong medical supervision) raising dose of semen and monitor the reactions(histamine level, physical reactions, etc) we'll have some tangible result, a real proof and something to start with....or we'll focus research in something else


Histamine is released anyway as part of an O by mast cells in the genitals. It makes perfect sense why animus solution worked (even if it's very harsh) and that doesn't require anybody to have any allergy to seminal fluid.

I've seen posts saying that people have tried anti-histamines and they don't work on POIS. There are different kinds of histamine receptor and they could each cause different POIS symptoms. Rashes, itches, heart palpitations, stomach upset and serious cognition problems can all be caused by sets of H1, H2 and H3 histamine receptors.

Anti-histamines are designed to be receptor specific and modern anti-histamines are designed to have minimal crossing of the blood brain barrier (although some papers suggest it still happens). Therefore, taking zirtek or similar has NO CHANCE of making the cognitive symptoms of POIS go away and doesn't disprove the histamine theory at all.

It's entirely possible that some POIS sufferers have an allergic reaction to seminal fluid but we've no evidence it's actually taking place and how would we separate that from the normal histamine release at an orgasm?

For instance, I experience NO RASH WHATSOEVER on the point of my penis that has the most exposure to sperm whether I clean it well after an O or not. None.
Have any gay POIS sufferers shown allergy to their partner's sperm? I'm really interested to know.

how does he doing the operation reduce his histamine.  He still has normal orgasm the only different is way less semen.  wont his body still recruit mast cell.  Are you saying semen naturally cause histamine release.

a point in support of high histamine: histamine is key to  orgasm and can be behind premature ejaculation and alot of us have premajucation.  

I can orgasm five times straight and the sixth will still orgasm  very quick.



« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 08:40:08 PM by CertainlyPOIS »

Egordon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2012, 11:56:59 PM »
While I think it's important to ensure that people considering desensitization are fully aware of the risks (and this is ESPECIALLY TRUE with SLIT and other procedures not administered under the supervision of a physician) this post shades heavily into fearmongering and putting people off of the only real technique that we've seen sustained success from. It, in many cases, OVERSTATES the risk of professionally administered desens, and in some implies risks that there's little or no scientific support for. There are a number of us who have benefitted from desens and have shared our experiences on this board. Are our experiences (and the 50% reduction in my symptoms) "fiction" daveman?

How is this approach at all productive? What we should be doing is something that you and Demo are usually quite keen to do (but have refrained from doing in this case -- instead substituting your expert medical opinions): encourage people to have frank discussions with their doctors regarding their treatment and the (real, rather than fabricated and sensationalistic) risks associated with it.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 12:00:14 AM by Egordon »
POIS since I was about 15. 1.75 years of desens and I'm now about 80% POIS free. Still working through best practices for maintaining my immunity and administering my injections with my doctor. Email me if you have tips or questions!

Vandemolen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 902
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2012, 07:37:14 AM »
FACT: Currently, anaphylaxis leads to 500–1,000 deaths per year in the United States, 20 deaths per year in the United Kingdom, and 15 deaths per year in Australia.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphylaxis#section_8
Do you know how many people die because of a an anti flu injection? People die because of NSAID. People die because of anti biotics.

Make sure you are in good hands. And that they can go the emmergency room in the hospital.

Desens is done a long time ago. Also for people with pollen allergy. And there is a risk too. With every medication or injection there is a risk.

If someone doesn't want any risk, he or she must do nothing. If he got the flu, do nothing.
POIS since 2000. Very bad since 2008. I knew that I have POIS since June 2010. Desensitization since March 2011. I stopped with desens in July 2016. I have 50% less POIS. And only 1 day of POIS. Purified CBD works for me, but I am allergic for CBD.

Daveman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1631
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2012, 08:15:02 AM »
While I think it's important to ensure that people considering desensitization are fully aware of the risks (and this is ESPECIALLY TRUE with SLIT and other procedures not administered under the supervision of a physician) this post shades heavily into fearmongering and putting people off of the only real technique that we've seen sustained success from. It, in many cases, OVERSTATES the risk of professionally administered desens, and in some implies risks that there's little or no scientific support for. There are a number of us who have benefitted from desens and have shared our experiences on this board. Are our experiences (and the 50% reduction in my symptoms) "fiction" daveman?

How is this approach at all productive? What we should be doing is something that you and Demo are usually quite keen to do (but have refrained from doing in this case -- instead substituting your expert medical opinions): encourage people to have frank discussions with their doctors regarding their treatment and the (real, rather than fabricated and sensationalistic) risks associated with it.

I really do beg to differ on a number of points:

You say desensitization is "the only real technique that we've seen sustained success from". This is NOT true. First of all, for some reason, "the failures of desensitization are highly guarded", we don't see the REAL figures. If it works we hear about it, if it doesn't we don't. An exception to this are the numbers seen through our own members' programs, which unfortunately are still in early testing. Second there is sustained success from other methods with equal or better performance.

You say that we OVERSTATE the risk of professionally administered desens. NO. We STATE CLEARLY that the risk of UNsupervised administration is VERY dangerous. As far as professionally administered desensitization, we are saying that it is being applied without taking into consideration the standard practices normally applied in these cases. Many allergists won't do semen desensitization because they feel that the papers don't guarantee the the testing of critical pre-conditions, that one is or is not allergic to their semen. Many, I would even go so far as to say the majority of professionals can not accept that a reaction to the skin-prick IS evidence that we are allergic to semen. This is extremely important! And if you think that it is fear-mongering, then I'm sorry, you don't understand the importance of this point! IF you are NOT allergic to an allergen, you are only creating a greater problem by introducing it into the system on the other side of the blood barrier. You don't have to be a professional nor expert to know that.

You ask, "There are a number of us who have benefited from desens and have shared our experiences on this board. Are our experiences (and the 50% reduction in my symptoms) "fiction" daveman?"

We have provided this forum to share our experiences. I think that ONE of the GREAT benefits of such is that we get all the numbers. Perhaps we can't control our testing as well as the professionals, perhaps our results may be misleading for that reason, but we SEE everything. We see the successes and the failures. One without the other is of NO value, or at least of little value.

We can compare numbers, on various fronts, we have successes, which are balanced with faiilures. Desens, niacin, TRT among the most promising, none can show complete or even adequate results for all.

I know that those who are serious about testing desens, either through a doctor or on their own, will do so, with or without us. An advantage of this forum is that we can have one thread of several that talks about the down side, the rest can carry on offering their progress to the members without the negative mixed in on top of their input. I am honestly not unlike you, I spend a lot of my time to this cause, in the hope that we can find a solution. If the solution is desens, then so be it and let it shine through.

The good thing is that we are beyond the $24,000 mark thanks to the sponsor and all of you.  If desens is real, if all that's required is to isolate "THE" allergen and devise a proper test, then research will show that. Then we can all go happily for our treatments. But we won't know WHAT our problem is until we do the research. We just won't!
 


« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 08:54:51 AM by Daveman »
WITHOUT RESEARCH THERE WILL BE NO CURE!
Sessions 5 to 9 days, mostly Flu-like, joints, digestion problems, light cognitive.
Niacin has changed my lif though, now 1 day MAX.
Somewhere in this interaction with Niacin is the answer!

kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
  • Scientist, Engineer, INTJ type
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2012, 09:26:45 AM »
If anybody make an ANAPHYLAXIS someday, we'll be fixed about the allergy theory ; All we got today is skin reactions(my doc said maybe 70% of the normal population have a skin reaction to their own sperm that should'nt be injected in the skin) and few feelings of recovery ; Is there any way to monitor an allergic reaction without going as far as Anaphylaxis ?

For three reason, I think Allergy theory still could be the good one :
1.Several testimonies and notably the Animus story
2.Only theory wich fit with the fact that lot of us got symptoms just after arousal(sperm is not release but some components of the semen are : maybe we should look at them)
3. Since I know about Pois, I've been dramaticly reduce my O frequency...and I think the symptoms got worse....it's like having orgasm frequently was a kind of "auto desens" and the fact of avoiding them made me more sensitive.

Any ways, i'm pretty sure even if the cause is allergic there is consequences in hormones and neurotransmitters ; symptoms and cure reactions point that

It's pretty frustrating that after 10 years of investigation we are not even sure about the beginning of an explanation...

This will probably make yell people here but i'll have no problem to take the risk to definitly valid or invalid the allergy theory ; I'm pretty sure, if we got (under strong medical supervision) raising dose of semen and monitor the reactions(histamine level, physical reactions, etc) we'll have some tangible result, a real proof and something to start with....or we'll focus research in something else


Histamine is released anyway as part of an O by mast cells in the genitals. It makes perfect sense why animus solution worked (even if it's very harsh) and that doesn't require anybody to have any allergy to seminal fluid.

I've seen posts saying that people have tried anti-histamines and they don't work on POIS. There are different kinds of histamine receptor and they could each cause different POIS symptoms. Rashes, itches, heart palpitations, stomach upset and serious cognition problems can all be caused by sets of H1, H2 and H3 histamine receptors.

Anti-histamines are designed to be receptor specific and modern anti-histamines are designed to have minimal crossing of the blood brain barrier (although some papers suggest it still happens). Therefore, taking zirtek or similar has NO CHANCE of making the cognitive symptoms of POIS go away and doesn't disprove the histamine theory at all.

It's entirely possible that some POIS sufferers have an allergic reaction to seminal fluid but we've no evidence it's actually taking place and how would we separate that from the normal histamine release at an orgasm?

For instance, I experience NO RASH WHATSOEVER on the point of my penis that has the most exposure to sperm whether I clean it well after an O or not. None.
Have any gay POIS sufferers shown allergy to their partner's sperm? I'm really interested to know.

how does he doing the operation reduce his histamine.  He still has normal orgasm the only different is way less semen.  wont his body still recruit mast cell.  Are you saying semen naturally cause histamine release.

a point in support of high histamine: histamine is key to  orgasm and can be behind premature ejaculation and alot of us have premajucation.  

I can orgasm five times straight and the sixth will still orgasm  very quick.

Because even a high histamine person adjusts their h3 auto receptor levels such that they remain alert but with a rush of histamine from an O and inadequate clearing of that histamine in the brain (perhaps caused by a HNMT mutation) the h3 feedback mechanism would move into slow the synthesis of other neurotransmitters and try to protect the body.

Some HNMT mutations are known but it's early days for their study. Here's a paper discussing 2 mutations and a possible connection to asthma. There's also a theorised connection to schizophrenia. http://www.csupharmacol.com/db/allpaper/117.pdf

Carl Pfeiffer would find it funny, I'm sure, to see that a medical community which scoffed at his treatments are now designing drugs that act on H3 receptors to treat ADHD and studying methylation gene mutations (HNMT, COMT etc.) and their affect on psychiatric illnesses.

Mast cell release of histamine does not require an allergy to seminal fluid.  It appears it's related to the actions in the tissue that permit an erection and the final orgasm.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7850330
For example, there are tests that show that when someone is given a h2 antagonist like Zantac, they cannot get an erection. Rantidine/Zantac has the side effect of libido loss and erectile dysfunction.  http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-h2-blockers.htm
But that's not a great solution either :)

If exogenous histamine is injected into their penile tissue of someone taking a h2 blocker like rantidine it binds to h2 receptors and supports the muscle contraction.  It's impossible to have an erection without raising histamine but there's less released during an erection then when someone has an O which releases seminal fluid.  Or that's my understanding of it at least.

Yes it's very unusual that you can have so many O's as to do that you need to be able to sustain a lot of erections. I had 6 in one day during my early 20s. The girl I was going out with that the time was a combination of impressed and shocked but it's not normal. Now, I believe it encouraged the promiscuous behaviour that I described earlier. With all that histamine flowing, the desire to have an O is intense and there were times I could think about little else.

If the high histamine theory is correct then POIS sufferers who are not on medication which reduce libido (SSRI's perhaps) would have a high libido and would find it very very difficult to stop having orgasms. Indeed, they'd be quick to become aroused which would make POIS even worse as they'd be more inclined to orgasm than most people.

Read this http://www.gilbertssyndrome.com/allergies.php from a person with gilbert syndrome and resulting high histamine and note that they experience some allergy symptoms upon orgasm. We are not the only people suffering allergy problems due to orgasms.

I also have an idea that this may explain why the original ZMA tests on athletes worked better than subsequent lab trials on increasing testosterone. The theory is that most athletes are undermethylators and have high histamine (but they must also have efficient histamine clearing AND steroidogenesis). The latter 2 explains why we're not all winning medals at the olympics :) ZMA contains methionine which when administered at night may help the body reduce histamine levels, reduce cortisol steal and increase testosterone (in tandem with b6 and zinc supplementation of course). So that's why I think the stuff works better on high histamine types than members of the normal population. It may be why JFerr's testosterone levels nearly doubled when taking the stuff.  I have no idea why they fell...

demografx

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
Re: Desensitization, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2012, 10:11:15 AM »

 With every medication or injection there is a risk.


Risks with any treatment? True, but with POIS - desens, it's death. I do not see this potential danger for any other POIS treatment.

I use TRT for POIS for 3 years now. Successfully. But I feel it's responsible and necessary though to tell people that they might lose their sperm count and never have children.

Fertility risks and more are there for TRT - and with almost any treatment. But not the risk of death.

I would love to see longterm desensitization success!

But I would like to see some REAL  "science" that supports this desens "theory/hypothesis"

So it's up to the desens POIS patient to

1) understand the desensitization "theory"  ("theory" in quotes because there is none per normal medical standards - just like TRT, just like niacin - we are all working with such little understanding of POIS)

2) use an epi-pen. Especially for orgasm outside a hospital setting.

3) understand the dangers. There are two: death and new autoimmune probs.

4) can you wait till NORD starts research and see what the world's top physician-researchers discover about POIS?

But...I really understand   "No More POIS!"   thinking.

I was lucky with TRT! Daveman was lucky with niacin! That's where we all are, in my opinion.






« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 12:05:32 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business